Unofficial Royal Enfield Community Forum

Royal Enfield Motorcycles => 535 Continental GT => Topic started by: Taurim on December 24, 2020, 01:24:06 am

Title: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Taurim on December 24, 2020, 01:24:06 am
Hi guys,

I'm new in this forum and I did not find a dedicated subject to post a first presentation message. So I will start here with a presentation of my "slightly modified" 535 GT  :)
I own it since  May 2020. This is not my only bike (I also own a Monster 1100s) but fell in love with the look of this retro new bike.
I bought it specifically to modify it to my taste and also as a past time during confinement days here in France  ::) And I had a lot of time to do that so there is a huge number of modifications  :D
The base is a 2017 Euro 4 model.

Some pictures will be more useful than a long boring text. You will probably guess what I am doing  ;)

This is the July version of my 535 :


(https://i.servimg.com/u/f79/20/06/54/75/img_2816.jpg) (https://i.servimg.com/u/f79/20/06/54/75/img_2816.jpg)

(https://i.servimg.com/u/f79/20/06/54/75/img_2817.jpg) (https://i.servimg.com/u/f79/20/06/54/75/img_2817.jpg)

(https://i.servimg.com/u/f79/20/06/54/75/img_2815.jpg) (https://i.servimg.com/u/f79/20/06/54/75/img_2815.jpg)

(https://i.servimg.com/u/f79/20/06/54/75/img_2813.jpg) (https://i.servimg.com/u/f79/20/06/54/75/img_2813.jpg)

(https://i.servimg.com/u/f79/20/06/54/75/img_2814.jpg) (https://i.servimg.com/u/f79/20/06/54/75/img_2814.jpg)

And what I removed from the bike at that time ;D

(https://i79.servimg.com/u/f79/20/06/54/75/img_2820.jpg) (https://servimg.com/view/20065475/1255)

This summer I did a few thousands kilometers. It was great fun but I'm still searching for an engine with more character.

With the new confinement this winter it's time to work on that  :)

Some before / after pictures :

Intake :

(https://i.servimg.com/u/f79/20/06/54/75/admiss12.jpg) (https://servimg.com/view/20065475/1161)
(https://i.servimg.com/u/f79/20/06/54/75/admiss11.jpg) (https://servimg.com/view/20065475/1160)

Exhaust :

(https://i.servimg.com/u/f79/20/06/54/75/echapp11.jpg) (https://servimg.com/view/20065475/1162)
(https://i.servimg.com/u/f79/20/06/54/75/echapp12.jpg) (https://servimg.com/view/20065475/1163)

Combustion chamber :

(https://i.servimg.com/u/f79/20/06/54/75/chambr11.jpg) (https://i.servimg.com/u/f79/20/06/54/75/chambr11.jpg)
(https://i.servimg.com/u/f79/20/06/54/75/chambr10.jpg) (https://i.servimg.com/u/f79/20/06/54/75/chambr10.jpg)
(https://i.servimg.com/u/f79/20/06/54/75/chambr13.jpg)

1.15 mm less height on the cylinder to have 1 mm squish band and a better CR :

(https://i.servimg.com/u/f79/20/06/54/75/2020-114.jpg)

As I don't have yet H's performance cam, did Mr Henshaw's trick to the intake camshaft :

(https://i.servimg.com/u/f79/20/06/54/75/dzocal10.jpg)

And the mandatory Carberry plate :

(https://i.servimg.com/u/f79/20/06/54/75/carber10.jpg)

Reassembly with a modified exhaust tube built from H's Inox exhaust pipe :

(https://i.servimg.com/u/f79/20/06/54/75/ligne-11.jpg)

And the interesting detail welded on the tube behind the brake pedal  ;)

(https://i.servimg.com/u/f79/20/06/54/75/wideba10.jpg)

I used a cheap endoscope to check and adjust intake tract alignment :

(https://i.servimg.com/u/f79/20/06/54/75/tract210.jpg)

It's alive and (not !) clicking  :) Work remain to be done on the ECU.

(https://i.servimg.com/u/f79/20/06/54/75/poumpo10.jpg)

That's a lot of wires to install under the seat !

(https://i.servimg.com/u/f79/20/06/54/75/dynoje10.jpg)

Done ! I added a switch to the right handle bar to command some feature on the PC5 (at the moment : Autotune On/Off)

(https://i.servimg.com/u/f79/20/06/54/75/cablag10.jpg)

Compression ratio looks good  :)
(not sure if the reading is correct, CR looks suspiciously high given what I have done to the cylinder. I thought it would be 9.3 bars and it is a little more than 10.5 bars...)

(https://i.servimg.com/u/f79/20/06/54/75/taux_c10.jpg)

Time to ride the thing to check everything is OK (it was 4 days ago)... Yes it's good to ride again ! And the GT is pulling better than before  :)

(https://i.servimg.com/u/f79/20/06/54/75/remont10.jpg)

After the short run, check the spark plug which shows a nice color (not too visible on this picture).

(https://i.servimg.com/u/f79/20/06/54/75/bougie10.jpg)

PC5 is starting to generate the Trims from the Autotune/Wideband sensor. It's a really clever thing  :)
I started with some conservative target AFR (13.6 to 13.2).

(https://i.servimg.com/u/f79/20/06/54/75/1er_ru10.jpg)

What remains to be done :
- I just received my ACE.derottone airbox kit (Yes I was reading this forum long before today  ;)). The idea is really great :) But I will probably install a different velocity stack as the one I received is different from 2016 model.
- I think I have found a Performance cam kit in a French RE forum  :D
- riding the bike to set up a good PC5 map.

That was a long first post  ;)
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: gizzo on December 24, 2020, 05:06:44 am
Welcome aboard! Great choice of bike. 8)
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: AzCal Retred on December 24, 2020, 07:15:11 am
Nice work on that combustion chamber! No roughness left to initiate hot spot pre-ignition.  :)
Love those fine wire plugs too. Looks like a real runner! - ACR -
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: ace.cafe on December 24, 2020, 12:03:08 pm
Nice!

What is the difference about the 2017 model that makes our velocity stack unsuitable?
We need any info on model changes to keep our kits updated.
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Taurim on December 24, 2020, 12:49:39 pm
Thanks for your messages  ;)

The velocity stack in the kit is not unsuitable. It is less perfect than the one I saw in messages from Otto_Ing :

(https://forum.classicmotorworks.com/gallery/14695-280416061927.jpeg)
https://forum.classicmotorworks.com/index.php?topic=22756.345

The one from the kit, made of steel, is on the right. It's a bit short to have the correct length for 4500 to 5000 rpm. Length is 115 mm, 65 mm in the airbox if completely inserted (did not do it yet as I have to drill a hole in it for the temperature sensor which is in the rubber hose on Euro 4 models).
And also no roll back for the radius at the bell mouth which is not perfect. But I agree it will probably make no noticeable difference  ;)

(https://i79.servimg.com/u/f79/20/06/54/75/veloci13.jpg) (https://servimg.com/view/20065475/1256)

On the left is a 45x90mm Jenvey air horn for a Weber carburetor. The shape and the length are perfect and it is very light. It can be fitted in the airbox.
But I think the huge size of the bell mouth (88mm) and the length place the mouth too close from the rear of the airbox to have a good airflow.
So I will probably not use it and start with the velocity stack provided with the kit  ;)

Except if it's possible to find the one used by Otto_Ing ?

Merry Christmas Eve  :)
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Arschloch on December 24, 2020, 01:31:15 pm
I have one aluminium around that hasn't been used yet. PM your address and I ship it.

Nice job on your bike.
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Taurim on December 24, 2020, 01:53:48 pm
Christmas is supposed to happen tomorrow  ;D

Thanks a lot derottone, PM sent  ;)
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: gizzo on December 24, 2020, 02:00:18 pm
It was Christmas half an hour ago here. Good onya Otto. Happy Christmas .
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Arschloch on December 24, 2020, 03:51:05 pm
It was Christmas half an hour ago here. Good onya Otto. Happy Christmas .

....you know I don't believe in Xmas. ;)
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: gizzo on December 24, 2020, 07:28:47 pm
....you know I don't believe in Xmas. ;)
Nevertheless, it's a real thing. Some people even take it seriously  ;)
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Guaire on December 25, 2020, 12:17:06 am
If you can, give each stack a try on the old butt dyno. See if there’s a discernible difference. I’d love to hear a comparison.
  It shouldn’t be difficult, easy in and out through the filter and the air box.
Cheers,
Bill G.
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: gizzo on December 25, 2020, 03:04:23 am
....you know I don't believe in Xmas. ;)

Wow what a day. So good. T shirt weather and no wind plus family. Happy days
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Arschloch on December 25, 2020, 08:56:07 am
Wow what a day. So good. T shirt weather and no wind plus family. Happy days

What, didn't the aussie commies already outlaw it? I guess they did, except for themselves.
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: ace.cafe on December 25, 2020, 12:12:18 pm
Regarding the rolled entry shape of the stack, studies have found that there is less than 5% difference in actual flow berween a flat cutoff and a full 180° rolled entry. So I wouldn't worry too much about that.

Regarding the length, on my GT, the friction fit into the airbox connector allowed me to position the stack with adjustable length.
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Taurim on December 25, 2020, 05:56:44 pm
If you can, give each stack a try on the old butt dyno. See if there’s a discernible difference. I’d love to hear a comparison.
  It shouldn’t be difficult, easy in and out through the filter and the air box.
Cheers,
Bill G.

I will try that but installation was not that simple.

On Euro 4 machines you have the air temperature sensor in the way :

(https://i79.servimg.com/u/f79/20/06/54/75/intake11.jpg) (https://servimg.com/view/20065475/1257)

You can see the sensor and the plug in the middle of the picture :

(https://i79.servimg.com/u/f79/20/06/54/75/intake12.jpg) (https://servimg.com/view/20065475/1258)


One solution could have been to drill a hole in the velocity stack for the sensor. But to change the stack it requires to remove the tank, remove the sensor, etc...

If I insert the stack up to the sensor, it does not stay in place and I was not too happy with the huge gap between the stack and the throttle body.


So after some sawing/drilling/sanding/swearing I came up with this solution : a ring to limit the size of the gap and protect the sensor.

(https://i79.servimg.com/u/f79/20/06/54/75/intake13.jpg) (https://servimg.com/view/20065475/1259)

In place :

(https://i79.servimg.com/u/f79/20/06/54/75/intake14.jpg) (https://servimg.com/view/20065475/1260)

I use some tape on the velocity stack to make it fit as snugly as possible in the airbox :

(https://i.servimg.com/u/f79/20/06/54/75/intake16.jpg) (https://servimg.com/view/20065475/1262)

When in place there is  a small step on top between the stack and the ring but it extremely small.

(https://i79.servimg.com/u/f79/20/06/54/75/intake19.jpg) (https://servimg.com/view/20065475/1265)

With this installation, the stack length in the airbox is 80mm, that's 15mm longer than when in contact with throttle body.

(https://i.servimg.com/u/f79/20/06/54/75/intake17.jpg) (https://servimg.com/view/20065475/1263)

Job done  :)

(https://i.servimg.com/u/f79/20/06/54/75/intake18.jpg) (https://servimg.com/view/20065475/1264)

Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Taurim on December 25, 2020, 06:23:37 pm
Regarding the rolled entry shape of the stack, studies have found that there is less than 5% difference in actual flow berween a flat cutoff and a full 180° rolled entry. So I wouldn't worry too much about that.

I have this well known drawing from a David Vizard's book :

(https://i79.servimg.com/u/f79/20/06/54/75/vizard10.jpg) (https://servimg.com/view/20065475/1266)

Maybe there is only 3% difference. But why not trying to get it ?  :)


I also have this drawing for the whole intake tract length related to RPM (with some lines added in the useful range for us) :

(https://i.servimg.com/u/f79/20/06/54/75/intlen11.jpg) (https://servimg.com/view/20065475/1268)

If I make no mistake my intake tract is now 90 + 228 + 80 = 398 mm  / 15.7 inches. That should be OK from 4500 to 6200 RPM. It's a bit high but there is not enough room in the airbox to do much better than that.

The perfect length would be 22.5 inches. That would require a 25 cm long velocity stack... that's outside of the airbox ;D
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Arschloch on December 25, 2020, 07:08:34 pm
The length depends on the duration of the intake cam too. My calculator says with stock cams 15" should be pretty optimal.  ;)
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Taurim on December 25, 2020, 07:22:48 pm
How did you calculate that ?

And what is the impact of the stock intake cam retarded by 1 tooth ?

It should give BTDC 25°32, ABDC 69°28 compared to stock BTDC 35°, ABDC 60°

Yes, the duration is the same  :)

Edit : Found that (from David Vizard) :

L = ((720 - ECD) x 0.25V x 2) / (RPM x RV) - 0.5D

L = total runner length
ECD = effective cam duration
V = speed of sound (ft/sec)
RV = order of wave
D = diameter of runner
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Arschloch on December 25, 2020, 07:31:36 pm
I don't remember how my calculator works, I usually derive the formulas myself build upon the best theory I can think of and compare it to other results.

Inputs are very similar to yours, with Temperature because that changes the speed of sound.
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Taurim on December 25, 2020, 07:49:19 pm
The problem in that equation is "effective" cam duration... which is probably mid lift, so a lot less than 275°  ???

I stop caring about that for today ;D It would be more useful for me to check the weather prediction. It's too cold and rainy to perform some road testing  :'(
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Arschloch on December 25, 2020, 08:01:28 pm
I think I've used 250deg, with 1mm valve lift.
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Bullet Whisperer on December 25, 2020, 08:48:24 pm
Hi Taurim,
 Interesting to see you have retarded what appears to be the std inlet cam by 1 tooth, I have done this on one CGT with performance cams fitted so far and will be doing the same with another soon. I have also used this trick on many 'cast iron' engines, with std and performance cams and a couple of AVL engines. I would expect some improvement from what you have done, however, and it would seem to be the case. Thanks for sharing this  8).
 B.W.
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Taurim on December 25, 2020, 09:01:13 pm
Hi Paul, we discussed about your latest CGT "ASBO" via Youtube and Facebook  ;)

I retarded the standard inlet cam by one tooth following your advice because as you know performance cams are unavailable at the moment... But I may have found a unused set :D

To be continued  ;)
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: gizzo on December 25, 2020, 11:06:23 pm
Great work and thanks for the discussion on the trumpet. That's interesting. FWIW I've done pretty much the same mods my bike: Inlet cam retarded (per discussion with GHG), barrel skim, pcv & at200, header & muffler, ace air cleaner kit. I worked on the ports, but focussed more on removing the huge step between inlet port and insulator/injector stub. I removed a bunch of casting flashing from the exhaust port and smoothed the lot out but I don't think I enlarged the ports as much as it looks like you have. Can confirm my GT pulls harder than a stock bike and hoses a 500 UCE bullet.

I think I'll spring for cams when they become available again.
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: oldphart on December 25, 2020, 11:30:42 pm
Crikey. You're certainly having fun with that poor bike. Are you a compulsive modifier or will you just get it 'right' and then ride the wheels off it? It's good to see though. I like these sorts of projects. Well done.
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Taurim on December 25, 2020, 11:41:38 pm
Thanks gizzo  ;)

I did not talked about that because I forgot to take some pictures but I did some work on the exhaust header also.
As you saw it the exhaust port is enlarged at 35 mm. Then I machined a ring to receive the 41 mm header tube with 35 mm ID matching the port and 28 mm long (If I remember correctly).
Then I inserted a OD 38/ID 35 tube inside the header. All of this makes a constant matched 35 mm diameter from the head to approximately the position of the original lambda sensor (I reduces the bung protrusion inside the tube as much as possible).

Once again it probably adds almost nothing performance wise but it's nice to know it is looking clean inside ;D

I read the discussion here about sleeves and anti-reversion ;)

Did your AT work well ? What target AFR did you choose ? For me this map goes now from 14 for little openings/revs to 12.8 when WOT and high RPM.
I have yet to test it but you know, it's the winter this side of the globe  :'(
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: gizzo on December 26, 2020, 12:01:33 am
The AT seems to work well. I went for 13.2 across the board apart from around 3-4k at light throttle for cruising at 13.8. I ought to change it to 12.somehing for WOT but haven't yet.
I removed all the ignition advance from the map supplied for the engine with exhaust. It doesn't seem to need it since the squish mod and it doesn't ping anymore, unless you really try.
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Taurim on December 26, 2020, 12:03:08 am
Crikey. You're certainly having fun with that poor bike. Are you a compulsive modifier or will you just get it 'right' and then ride the wheels off it? It's good to see though. I like these sorts of projects. Well done.

Thanks  ;)

I bought it to modify it to my taste and as a past time during Covid Crisis (this is the CGT 535 CV19 Edition !). The first phase (during first Covid confinement...) was the look and the handling and very little on the engine (PC5, filter, exhaust). I did several thousands kilometres this summer and had great fun with it, even though the engine could be better...

Now during the second confinement and the Winter I am not riding it so I started the second phase : doing all I can to improve engine performance and take the time to do it properly.

It's a lot more fun than watching TV series  ;D

After that I will have to fine tune it, maybe a Dyno measurement to known where I am and that's all. It will be exactly like I want with hopefully the performance matching the look  :)
It's not a matter of absolute performance (I just have to ride my Ducati Monster 1100 if I want more performance !) but a matter of character I want from that little thumper  :)
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Taurim on December 26, 2020, 12:10:38 am
The AT seems to work well. I went for 13.2 across the board apart from around 3-4k at light throttle for cruising at 13.8. I ought to change it to 12.somehing for WOT but haven't yet.
I removed all the ignition advance from the map supplied for the engine with exhaust. It doesn't seem to need it since the squish mod and it doesn't ping anymore, unless you really try.

Tomorrow I will have to share what I put in AFR and Ignition maps so that we can discuss about it  ;) But obviously I have not enough return on how it will work !
We won't be able to compare injection and Trim maps as I have a Euro 4 bike with a very different ECU and more sensors.
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: gizzo on December 26, 2020, 12:31:49 am
Tomorrow I will have to share what I put in AFR and Ignition maps so that we can discuss about it  ;) But obviously I have not enough return on how it will work !
We won't be able to compare injection and Trim maps as I have a Euro 4 bike with a very different ECU and more sensors.

Sounds good!
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Arschloch on December 26, 2020, 08:52:27 am
Taurim, what seat is it you used for your project? It looks great.  :)

I'm also looking into half fairings, can't decide still if I like the looks of one or not but want one for the functionality. Kind of impossible decision to make.
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Taurim on December 26, 2020, 11:34:01 am
It's a cheap no name eBay item you can easily find by searching for "Cafe Racer seat".
I think it suits really well the continental GT. It is larger and thicker than the stock seat and way more confortable.
It is not perfect as the base is not flat, il goes upward on the rear and does not follow the line of the bike. I will have to find another one with a flat base.

A French shop "Tendance Roadster" used to sell a nice retro looking half fairing but it looks like it's not available anymore : https://www.tendance-roadster.com/shop/index.php?id_product=41&controller=product&id_lang=1

(https://i79.servimg.com/u/f79/20/06/54/75/tendan10.jpg) (https://servimg.com/view/20065475/1270)

(https://i79.servimg.com/u/f79/20/06/54/75/tendan11.jpg) (https://servimg.com/view/20065475/1271)


Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: oldphart on December 26, 2020, 12:25:55 pm
Gee, that's a corker looking GT.
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Arschloch on December 26, 2020, 01:06:25 pm
Gee, that's a corker looking GT.

Would ya prefer this fairing?  ???
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: oldphart on December 26, 2020, 01:37:26 pm
I've got a scooter besotted mate who would love it.
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: ace.cafe on December 26, 2020, 02:53:12 pm
Thanks gizzo  ;)

I did not talked about that because I forgot to take some pictures but I did some work on the exhaust header also.
As you saw it the exhaust port is enlarged at 35 mm. Then I machined a ring to receive the 41 mm header tube with 35 mm ID matching the port and 28 mm long (If I remember correctly).
Then I inserted a OD 38/ID 35 tube inside the header. All of this makes a constant matched 35 mm diameter from the head to approximately the position of the original lambda sensor (I reduces the bung protrusion inside the tube as much as possible).

Once again it probably adds almost nothing performance wise but it's nice to know it is looking clean inside ;D

I read the discussion here about sleeves and anti-reversion ;)

Did your AT work well ? What target AFR did you choose ? For me this map goes now from 14 for little openings/revs to 12.8 when WOT and high RPM.
I have yet to test it but you know, it's the winter this side of the globe  :'(

My observations:
That 35mm exhaust sleeve is helping more than you may recognize. It is a good mod.

The cam timing figures you quote are very different than any UCE cams we have seen in the US. They look like timing fron Iron Barrel model cams. Perhaps they changed cam timing on the newer GT than the ones we have seen. Also, the ideal stack length is definitely related to inlet cam timing, as Derottone indicated. I can't comment on which is right because I have not seen cam timing like you reported on a UCE up until this time.

Your 150 psi compression reading comes from the retarding of your inlet cam. With a squish chamber you can run as high as 185-190 psi cranking compression. I always use a higher compression piston when retarding the cam. You have plenty of room to boost compression there.

I have some concerns about reducing the overlap too much when retarding the inlet cam so far. Vizard talks about this, so since you read his stuff maybe you are familiar with the importance of the effects from exhaust extraction providing the most pull on the inlet mixture at any time during the inlet stroke, and the losses coming from losing it. However, if your cam retarded timing actually is as you report, the overlap should be fine in your case.

I think that since you are so concerned about trying to optimize a possible 3% potential stack inlet flow improvement, you might want to look at the other things that I mention above.

I think your bike looks very good, and that is the look that I wanted for my GT until it was stolen and not recovered.
 

Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Taurim on December 26, 2020, 05:38:27 pm
Today the weather was not too bad with 5°C and almost no rain. So I did a little 60 Km ride to test everything...

There is absolutely no doubt about the fact that the ACE Airbox brings much wanted power.
There is not so much torque around 3500/4000 but from 4500 to 5500 the engine now flies when before it was totally dead  :)
I tried to push up to 6K RPM in 3rd and 4th but it useless. The engine loses all steam past 5.5K.
But it's so much better than before to feel the little engine galloping from 4500 RPM :D

And the speed ?... 150 kph at the GPS, almost 160 kph on the clock (almost !) at close to 5.5K RPM  ;D

A tourist photo  :) (and a pause to heat up my hands !)

(https://i79.servimg.com/u/f79/20/06/54/75/2020-117.jpg) (https://servimg.com/view/20065475/1272)

Now some checks. The spark plug still looks OK ?

(https://i79.servimg.com/u/f79/20/06/54/75/bougie11.jpg) (https://servimg.com/view/20065475/1273)

The velocity stack is still in place.

(https://i79.servimg.com/u/f79/20/06/54/75/intake20.jpg) (https://servimg.com/view/20065475/1274)

The look of the top of the piston (the picture quality is very bad). Intake up, exhaust down, spark plug on the right.

(https://i79.servimg.com/u/f79/20/06/54/75/piston11.jpg) (https://servimg.com/view/20065475/1275)

Now I check the map computed from the previous trims and today's trims. No adjust over the -/+20 limit I set so it is correct.

(https://i79.servimg.com/u/f79/20/06/54/75/20201210.jpg) (https://servimg.com/view/20065475/1276)

For gizzo, here is my Target AFR map and my ignition map :

(https://i79.servimg.com/u/f79/20/06/54/75/20201211.jpg) (https://servimg.com/view/20065475/1277)

(https://i79.servimg.com/u/f79/20/06/54/75/20201212.jpg) (https://servimg.com/view/20065475/1278)
(I forgot some values in the 20% column !)

Next steps will be the test of otto's velocity stack and next, hopefully, the installation of Hitchcocks performance cams !
Maybe I will try to have a dyno session before installing the cams...
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Arschloch on December 26, 2020, 07:01:51 pm
I can't stress enough how nice your bike looks.

I'm still very happy that I got the Euro 3 and not the 4. Air temperature sensor in the intake tract. That must be the cleanest bike on the surface of the planet earth. A whole lot more wires in total too as I can seen on your top down view building picture.
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Taurim on December 26, 2020, 07:16:55 pm
Thank you  :)

I removed a lot of Euro 4 hardware and spent a lot of time reorganizing almost everything on the bike ;D

A photo taken at the end of today's ride. Please notice the ACE logo on the side panel  ;)

(https://i79.servimg.com/u/f79/20/06/54/75/2020-120.jpg) (https://servimg.com/view/20065475/1282)

As a reminder here is the same bike when I bought it  ;)

(https://i79.servimg.com/u/f79/20/06/54/75/re-0111.jpg) (https://servimg.com/view/20065475/1283)
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: gizzo on December 26, 2020, 09:53:29 pm
Thanks fit for the update. Love the tourist Pic! The GT with it's stock pipe sure looks frumpy compared with the after photo..

No way will mine do 160. Maybe 150 with a tailwind. When it was new it'd do 145. But took a lot longer to get there. Now it romps up to the same speed and hits a brick wall. That's ok, I got faster bikes too.

I used the same ebay seat on a build a few years ago. It's a good item, especially for the price.
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Taurim on December 26, 2020, 10:14:57 pm
With the Euro 4 emission limits the CGT hardly reach 130 to 135 kph on the clock ! Its so under powered they had to replace the Euro 3 18x36 final drive with a 17x36 ! Mine is back at 18x36 with a lighter chain (non O-Ring 5/8'' X 1/4' sold by H in place of the stock O-Ring 5/8'' X 3/8'').
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Arschloch on December 27, 2020, 09:23:03 am
As far as I remember the Euro 3 bikes didn't go any faster when stock, maybe only after replacement of the lead filled stove pipe which they call exhaust it could reach around 140kmh.
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Taurim on December 27, 2020, 12:34:35 pm
The GPS speed for my stock Euro 4 was closer to 120 to 125 kph with a lot of vibration and a totally muted noise.
I only kept it in this configuration for... 2 days  ;D
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Arschloch on December 28, 2020, 05:45:34 pm
You may need the longer duration cam from H to rev the engine more than 5500rpm. I don't get to rev mine out to 6500rpm with the stock gearing. It doesn't go above 5800-6000 in 5th. So to take advantage of the last 500rpm it would take the fairing I think, but they all look fugly somehow.

And if the conditions are not ideal it gets stuck around 5500 too. Maybe a little shorter gearing could help as well.
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Taurim on December 28, 2020, 06:25:27 pm
5800 to 6000 RPM is 163 to 168 kph (102 to 105 mph), this is more than my target  ;D
If it's not too difficult/long to reach the ton I will be more than happy with that level of performance  ;)
I'm also asking myself if installing a 34T rear sprocket may help to gain some kph...
Not sure if the available torque will permit it. With that ratio 5.5K RPM will be 164 kph. 42 Nm will be needed to reach that speed if my calculations are correct. That's a lot for the little engine at this high rpm...
(I will have to share my computations  ;) )

What is your engine tune derottone ?

If everything goes well I should receive a used (but never installed) Hitchcock's performance cam kit in the next few days  :)
(new cam kits are not available at the moment at Hitchcock's shop)
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Adrian II on December 29, 2020, 12:47:01 pm
I will be very interested to see how your CGT compares with the one Bullet Whisperer has been working on with similar head work, but with a carburetor conversion. It looks like yours will be the first to get a set of performance cams, so we may have to wait a while.

A.
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Taurim on December 29, 2020, 01:48:39 pm
The performance will probably be very close even though mine may have a slight edge with the velocity stack and ACE airbox :)

If I have enough patience I will try to wait to measure the current setup on the dyno before installing the cams.

For the fun I have taken the dyno measurement of a CGT with ACE airbox installed posted in this forum to compute the performance with that data.
Aerodynamic force + inertia taken into account. The curves show the acceleration for each gear. The point where the 5th gear curve crosses the x axis indicates the top speed. Which is... 150 kph  :)
The point where 2 curves cross indicates the optimal RPM to change gear to get the better acceleration. Which here is not the red line.

(https://i79.servimg.com/u/f79/20/06/54/75/perfor10.png) (https://servimg.com/view/20065475/1291)

The torque curve used :

(https://i79.servimg.com/u/f79/20/06/54/75/26rwhp11.jpg) (https://servimg.com/view/20065475/1292)

Top speed possible at 5.5K RPM with this gearing is 154 kph. 35.5 NM (27.1 hp) are needed at this RPM to reach this speed. Which was not the case of the CGT measured.
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Taurim on December 29, 2020, 01:59:15 pm
It's easy to compare with a different gearing ratio. For example 18x34.

Maybe there is 1 or 2 kph to gain. The torque curve of this engine fell rapidly at high revs.
Max speed at 5.5 K RPM with this gearing is now 163 kph. But 41 Nm (32.2 hp) are needed to be able to reach that speed at that RPM. Not the case here.

(https://i79.servimg.com/u/f79/20/06/54/75/scree104.png) (https://servimg.com/view/20065475/1293)
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: ace.cafe on December 29, 2020, 02:32:34 pm
My 2014 CGT in its early days with sports silencer, Power Commander, Ace airbox and stack, could just barely reach 145 kph in top gear with stock gearing at 5000 rpm at 900 feet above sea level.
That was max top speed on level road in the real world, not calculated..
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Arschloch on December 29, 2020, 02:34:13 pm
I remember that diagramm because it was tanken on my bike. The configuration was, ace airbox, aftermarket exhaust and squish mod. I could reach about 145kmh speedo with it. So your calculation might be slightly optimistic, or I might cause a larger air resistance than you.  ::)
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Taurim on December 29, 2020, 02:46:26 pm
SCx 0.4 is an appropriation  ;)
With SCx set to 0.5 the computed top speed is a bit over 140.

My bike is able to reach 150 kph (GPS, and the body and helmet on the tank) but maybe there a little bit more power with all the current mods (compression ratio/squish, ported head, ACE airbox, retarded intake cam, exhaust, PC5+Autotune...).
The only way to adjust my graph will be to take the bike to a Dyno, input the data into the spreadsheet and set the Scx to match the actual top speed  :)

If my actual SCx is 0.5, then my engine have 39 Nm at 5250 RPM (29.3 hp).


Maybe there is some kph to gain with improved riding technique and gear  ;D

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/4/4a/Rollie_Free%2C_record_run.jpg/220px-Rollie_Free%2C_record_run.jpg)
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Arschloch on December 29, 2020, 03:39:46 pm
I'm not interested in all that comfort, that's only something for the Iditarod racers.  ;)

Around 30hp at the wheel seems realistic if you getting 150kmh out of it.

Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Adrian II on December 29, 2020, 08:00:39 pm
Rollie Free!

He ALMOST had a song written about him.  ;D

https://youtu.be/0lnRJuUGEvI

A.
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: ace.cafe on December 29, 2020, 08:46:31 pm
5800 to 6000 RPM is 163 to 168 kph (102 to 105 mph), this is more than my target  ;D
If it's not too difficult/long to reach the ton I will be more than happy with that level of performance  ;)
I'm also asking myself if installing a 34T rear sprocket may help to gain some kph...
Not sure if the available torque will permit it. With that ratio 5.5K RPM will be 164 kph. 42 Nm will be needed to reach that speed if my calculations are correct. That's a lot for the little engine at this high rpm...
(I will have to share my computations  ;) )

What is your engine tune derottone ?

If everything goes well I should receive a used (but never installed) Hitchcock's performance cam kit in the next few days  :)
(new cam kits are not available at the moment at Hitchcock's shop)
Derottone's CGT holds 46nm torque all the way to 5750 rpm before it starts to trail downward.

Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Taurim on December 29, 2020, 11:12:54 pm
38 RWHP ! I imagine it is with ACE CNC head ?

With the torque data it's easy to simulate the top speed.
Assuming SCx is 0.4 and final ratio is 18x36, top speed should be around 172 kph @ 6200 RPM

(https://i79.servimg.com/u/f79/20/06/54/75/scree105.png) (https://servimg.com/view/20065475/1294)

And around 160 kph if SCx is 0.5 :

(https://i79.servimg.com/u/f79/20/06/54/75/scree107.png) (https://servimg.com/view/20065475/1296)

What is you actual top speed ? I will be able to find the correct SCx with that. It's the most difficult value to find without a wind tunnel !

Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: ace.cafe on December 29, 2020, 11:33:48 pm
Derottone can say the top speed, but I think it is around 170 kph.

It has the ace billet head and ace cams, plus some very nice custom features from Derottone himself. We worked together quite closely on this project. It came out very well.

Here is a fun video about it.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=oDdCtAMfDUg
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Taurim on December 30, 2020, 12:03:44 am
I know this video very well, it was inspirational  ;)
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Arschloch on December 30, 2020, 04:08:59 am
I don't know the exact top speed, it hits the 160 relatively fast and that's a good speed already. Usually, I run out of road before hitting that speed, no salt flats around. The goal was a ton up machine that can hit it any day and last a while. A bike that would have been everyone's dream in the 60ies, a direct competition to the Manxes and Goldstars of that time, simultaneously a bike that is competitive to the modern small bike gear like the KTM 390ies however keeps that unaltered, unfiltered rough motorcycling experience alive.
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Gremlinsteve on December 30, 2020, 04:40:44 am
Love this build
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Taurim on December 30, 2020, 07:08:28 am
The goal was a ton up machine that can hit it any day and last a while. A bike that would have been everyone's dream in the 60ies, a direct competition to the Manxes and Goldstars of that time, simultaneously a bike that is competitive to the modern small bike gear like the KTM 390ies however keeps that unaltered, unfiltered rough motorcycling experience alive.

That’s what i want too  :)

In the video I see you have a temperature reading up to 145C.

Where did you put the sensor ?
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Arschloch on December 30, 2020, 09:24:33 am
The sensor sits under the spark plug. Normal riding produces 130-135°C, WOT gets it to 145-150°C. On the dyno with bad cooling it reached 165°C, that was the highest temperature recorded.


Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Taurim on December 30, 2020, 09:27:34 am
That makes sense. I will try to install this kind of contraption. Thanks  ;)
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Arschloch on December 30, 2020, 09:57:03 am
https://youtu.be/UUQIx7Vd968

...the Benelli Leoncino 500.seems to be almost exact the same on road performance.

Monitoring the temperature might be worth something? I don't know, when the forged piston sized that I've tested I didn't notice any higher temperatures though. It just lost power and stopped moving shortly after that.  ::)

Oil however deteroriates quicker if the temperatures go over 130°C but since this is directly under the plug it's always above what the oil sees.

Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Taurim on December 30, 2020, 11:39:18 am
The Benelli is a high revving  liquid cooled parallel twin. It's a very different thing and it's not pretty like a CGT  ;D
KTM Duke RC 390 / Duke 390 are a better match. Or a Duke 690/Husky 701 for somebody wanting the ultimate sport single !

You raise a good question for the usefulness of the head temperature monitor  ;)

Did you find the reason why the piston seized ?
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Arschloch on December 30, 2020, 11:46:51 am
The forged piston sized because it was a tiny bit too big in diameter.

I use the temp sensor for waiting until the engine reaches around 120°C before going full throttle. That's probably about it for the usefulness. Surprisingly the engine reaches same temperatures on the head if its 10°C outside or 30°C, as if there was a thermostat which there is none. Maybe the additional cooling with the oil squirts in the ace head is what accomplishes this.
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Taurim on December 30, 2020, 11:39:21 pm
I use a cheaper sensor : I put my hand on the head and when I have to remove it, temp is more than 65°C so I can quietly take off   ;D

Your forged piston was the one sold by H and put in the stock cylinder (no re-bored) ?
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Arschloch on January 01, 2021, 01:23:47 pm
I use a cheaper sensor : I put my hand on the head and when I have to remove it, temp is more than 65°C so I can quietly take off   ;D

Your forged piston was the one sold by H and put in the stock cylinder (no re-bored) ?

That's a reliable sensor, works too for the cold start. The advantage is it can't be routed back into the ECU so that some software guru does something funny with the information that nobody asked for. :D
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Arschloch on January 01, 2021, 01:24:29 pm
Piston was aftermarket, not H. I assume H have their stuff under better tolerance control.
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Taurim on January 01, 2021, 02:27:38 pm
I never saw another forged 535cc piston than the Wössner sold by H ?

Happy new year  :)
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Arschloch on January 01, 2021, 02:41:08 pm
I never saw another forged 535cc piston than the Wössner sold by H ?

Happy new year  :)

Happy new year.

The piston I had was made by JE, I heard stories of sized Wössner pistons too however. My impression was that H is getting their pistons from Omegapistons? Probably best thing to do if you obtain any forged aftermarket piston is to throw them into the oven and measure the actual thermal expansion yourself before installing it.
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Taurim on January 01, 2021, 03:01:53 pm
I used to think about the forged piston option due to the flat, not dished top in case the compression was too low.

But now that I have measured 10.7 bars/155 PSI it's not an option anymore.

I just hope the stock piston (and crankshaft/connecting rod/bearings !) will handle the increased stress  ???
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Arschloch on January 01, 2021, 04:33:23 pm
The big end bearing has large dimensions. It's 42x35x20, it should last. I did 12.000km before I had the issue with the piston. Eventually I'll replace the big end bearing with something better maybe with ceramic rollers.
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Adrian II on January 01, 2021, 04:57:32 pm
Quote
I just hope the stock piston (and crankshaft/connecting rod/bearings !) will handle the increased stress  ???

Now I don't want to worry anybody, but it's the same con-rod and big-end as on the Electra-X! Later EFI rods don't have the bronze small-end bush, the wrist pin runs directly in the steel forging, but the pin diameters and the centers are the same.

Now I have never heard of one of these con-rods or crank pins actually breaking. What can happen is that the hardened bearing surface of the crank pin or occasionally in the big-end eye in the con-rod can fail, dumping pieces of hardened steel debris into the engine.  :o 

This was a common problem on early Electra-X crankshafts, but the metallurgy had (mostly) improved by the time the EFI Bullets came on the scene, so if the factory got it right, your CGT will be fine.

The caged needle-roller bearing used is the same type as successfully used on thousands of Japanese motorcycle engines and is unlikely to give trouble of itself until the inner bearing track on the pin or the outer bearing track in the rod fails.

Even if your big-end DID fail, Alpha Bearings in the UK can rebuild the crankshafts. Apart from fitting a new crank pin made of better quality steel, they can grind out the big-end eye in the con-rod and fit a hardened sleeve, more like a traditional British bike's con-rod. Hitchcocks' sell replacement con-rods with the Alpha big-end and sleeve already fitted if you can strip and rebuild your own cranks, or have a local engineer who can. 

A.
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Arschloch on January 01, 2021, 05:20:27 pm
I've noticed with the uce at every single oil change some small amount steel debris. I couldn't identify where it's coming from which made me wonder that the big end bearing eats its cage. I'll have more indication once I repair the crankshaft that failed as result of the sized piston.

Otherwise the bearing dimensions are as large as should ever be needed. Quick  primitive bearing calculation reveals that it should last a 1000h @ 6500rpm and the occurring loads which would be what 50.000km going in the first gear only? The dimensions are certainly ok, materials and finishing may not be the best as you point out.
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: ace.cafe on January 01, 2021, 05:38:39 pm
I used to think about the forged piston option due to the flat, not dished top in case the compression was too low.

But now that I have measured 10.7 bars/155 PSI it's not an option anymore.

I just hope the stock piston (and crankshaft/connecting rod/bearings !) will handle the increased stress  ???

155 psi is suitable max for an open chamber, but you could go higher with the squish mod.
185 psi should be no problem with some squish.
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Taurim on January 01, 2021, 06:30:53 pm
Thanks for your reassuring messages concerning the bearings  :)

115 psi was easy to reach with the stock head by shortening the barrel : removed 1.15 mm from it to have 1 mm thick squish band : 0.5 for the top of the barrel and 0.5 for the head gasket.

Increasing the compression from there would require a flat top piston (dish volume is 3cc ?) and/or machining the head which could cause piston/valve interference...
The other option is welding some aluminium in the chamber, machining it to avoid valve shrouding, probably replace the valve seats due to heat distortion...
There is also the option of the Fireball head  ;)

That's a lot of troubles/money for a little gain. Maybe my expectations are not that high  ;D

Performance and engine character are already way better than stock. I hope that with Hitchcock's performance cams, some velocity stack tuning and a good map it will totally meet my expectations :)
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Arschloch on January 01, 2021, 07:16:35 pm
I was wondering about that too, but I love the ACE head. It's not as perfectly manufactured as it could be in larger quantities, but it's completely thought through which is how technical design is supposed to be.  ::).
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Adrian II on January 01, 2021, 07:32:23 pm
Speaking of which, there's still no sign of Hitchcocks' 4 valve heads going on sale yet.

A..
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Taurim on January 02, 2021, 01:18:05 pm
Santa was a little bit late this year  ;D

(https://i.servimg.com/u/f79/20/06/54/75/new_pe10.jpg)

Thank you Otto for the perfect velocity stack  ;)

I will install the cams later as I want to dyno the bike before. I will take measurement with all intake solutions if the bike shop is OK : stock filter, H' plate and K&N filter, ACE airbox with simple velocity stack and finally with Otto's "perfect" velocity stack  :)

Otto what is the story behind this part ? It was custom built ?
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Arschloch on January 02, 2021, 03:28:30 pm
I don't know about it being perfect but it's custom built for the GT, if it's any better than the one Guiare send you remains to be seen, personally I doubt you will see much difference on the dyno but it may fit better and is alloy. The Ace airbox will definitely give you some advantages over the other solutions. If you measure all those configurations you can try to change the length of the stack and see where it moves the power curve. Sounds like a good plan otherwise.
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Taurim on January 02, 2021, 03:47:49 pm
After some polishing, installation done :

(https://i.servimg.com/u/f79/20/06/54/75/al_sta11.jpg) (https://servimg.com/view/20065475/1304)

(https://i.servimg.com/u/f79/20/06/54/75/al_sta10.jpg) (https://servimg.com/view/20065475/1303)

I don't know either if the shape will bring some improvement but the new stack protrudes 60 mm in the box (15 mm less than the steel one) so that will definitely move the torque curve up in the RPM.

I don't want to cut the length of the stacks before the camshafts installation is done. Maybe I will need the full length of the stack... or not... We'll see  :)
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: ace.cafe on January 02, 2021, 04:48:46 pm
It depends on the rpm range that you decide upon, to determine the best length of the stack for your application. If you are keeping the 5500 rpm rev limit, you might find the longer one suits better.

Even with many many stacks and exhaust systems that I have made over the years, it seems the calculations are never correct, but they can get you into the ballpark for starting out. Cut-and-try works best to dial it in.
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Arschloch on January 02, 2021, 04:59:07 pm
As for calculation, going from 5500 to 6500 tells to go a shorter stack, if you go from 250deg duration to 290deg than it tells to use a longer stack. If you do both at the same time the calculation says the stack should remain about the same length because both factors cancel each other out. However as Tom said the perfect length will need the actual measurements.
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Taurim on January 02, 2021, 05:07:45 pm
The red line is already set at 6K RPM even though in it's current state of tune (stock cams, intake retarded by 1 tooth), it's only useful up to 5.5K.
6.5 K RPM would be nice but it depends how it will wok with H's cams.

I don't wan't to cut the Otto's stack yet as I only have a single one  ;)

But maybe I will experiment several lengths with the steel stack before cutting the aluminium stack.
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Arschloch on January 02, 2021, 05:37:05 pm
I can recommend to set the redline directly to 6500rpm. If the power doesn't peak out before 6000rpm you will have to redo the measurement as it happened to me.  ::)
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Taurim on January 02, 2021, 05:49:21 pm
No problem  ;D

But I will quickly discover that as I'm defining the map on the road with the Dynojet Autotune  ;)
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Arschloch on January 02, 2021, 06:59:34 pm
No problem  ;D

But I will quickly discover that as I'm defining the map on the road with the Dynojet Autotune  ;)

How would that help to identify the peak of the power curve?
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Taurim on January 02, 2021, 07:26:46 pm
I was only thinking about defining a correct map for each configuration before going to the dyno.
I agree with you that without the dyno it will only be a feeling with the butt dyno + the top  GPS speed (difficult on the open road !)

Just an idea : maybe the injection values you read on the map for each RPM WOT may help : more injection time for a specific RPM = better engine breathing = more power ?

Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Arschloch on January 02, 2021, 10:00:47 pm
Just an idea : maybe the injection values you read on the map for each RPM WOT may help : more injection time for a specific RPM = better engine breathing = more power ?

In theory if the map says at let's say 5000rpm and 100% throttle opening 10% more fuel than the previous map and the maps are auto tuned to the same stoichistic ratio than the engine should be delivering 10% more torque? I think that could work.

You could be able to extrapolate the dyno chart with 15 points from 3000-6500rpm given in the map there is a point every 250rpms. But you would need a reference dyno chart from the first map. Could work maybe if the Autotune module does a really good job.
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Taurim on January 02, 2021, 10:37:14 pm
In fact my idea was not computing the new power but finding what brings a new performance part installed by comparing before/after maps.

My current WOT injections delta time (compared to stock) are :
2500 : -1 %
2750 : -7
3000 : -3
3250 : -4
3500 : -1
3750 : 3
4000 : 6
4250 : 4
4500 : 8
4750 : 11
5000 : 11
5250 : 13
5500 : 5

A stock ECU is open loop when WOT and most of the time quite rich. So it's not necessary far away from my target AFR.

I can see my engine have probably a little less torque/power from 2500 to 3500 which fits with the intake cam being retarded.
And the torque/power is way better from 4500 to 5250 which is exactly what I have found when riding it.

Now I will have to compare these values after having fitted Otto's velocity stack which is 15mm shorter and probably better shaped.

That will be a first interesting comparison. Probably more precise than the good old "butt Dyno"  ;D
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Adrian II on January 04, 2021, 05:15:24 pm
Forgive me if you have already mentioned this, but what size/bore throttle body does this one have?

A.
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Taurim on January 04, 2021, 06:00:20 pm
No modification on my CGT : 34 mm stock throttle body.
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Taurim on January 04, 2021, 06:18:39 pm
I used to think about the forged piston option due to the flat, not dished top in case the compression was too low.

But now that I have measured 10.7 bars/155 PSI it's not an option anymore.

I just hope the stock piston (and crankshaft/connecting rod/bearings !) will handle the increased stress  ???

In fact I am totally wrong as I forgot about thermodynamic law :  PV=nRT !

Compression pressure is NOT compression ratio as the quickly compressed gaz heats up and the measured pressure is higher than the geometric ratio !
Too bad I forgot to measure the compression pressure before starting the modifications  :-[

The compression ratio may be higher with the shortened barrel but it is lower with the retarded intake cam : BTDC goes from 60° to 69.47°. It will be even worse with H's performance cams : BTDC +10°

In the end the compression pressure will probably be close to stock even though the geometric compression ratio goes from 8.5 to 9.3.

This is totally in line with what ace.cafe wrote earlier  ;)
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Adrian II on January 04, 2021, 06:58:32 pm
I know you're putting a LOT of effort in getting the fuel injection to perform properly, but if you ever did want to explore the c*rb*r*t*r option, I do have an unused (new) Dell'Orto PHF34 accelerator pump version which could be of interest.  ;D

A.
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Taurim on January 04, 2021, 07:17:11 pm
I used to tune carbs in the past on MX bikes and one of my car (a rare mid engine Matra Murena 2.2 142) . I much prefer the precision of wideband O2 sensor feedback to the carb guesswork ;D
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Bullet Whisperer on January 06, 2021, 10:03:48 pm
In fact I am totally wrong as I forgot about thermodynamic law :  PV=nRT !

Compression pressure is NOT compression ratio as the quickly compressed gaz heats up and the measured pressure is higher than the geometric ratio !
Too bad I forgot to measure the compression pressure before starting the modifications  :-[

The compression ratio may be higher with the shortened barrel but it is lower with the retarded intake cam : BTDC goes from 60° to 69.47°. It will be even worse with H's performance cams : BTDC +10°

In the end the compression pressure will probably be close to stock even though the geometric compression ratio goes from 8.5 to 9.3.

This is totally in line with what ace.cafe wrote earlier  ;)
If you retarded the cam by 1 tooth, that will equate to 18 crankshaft degrees, which sounds a lot, but I have had successful results on Iron Barrel, AVL and CGT engines by doing so, although the CGT is the only type I have yet to retard a standard inlet cam in, the last one I tuned responded very well when I retarded the Hitchcock performance type inlet cam.
 B.W.
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Taurim on January 06, 2021, 10:45:48 pm
Oh I forgot about the fact that the crankshaft makes 2 turns for one of the cam !

What I can confirm is that it makes a lot of difference, and a good difference for character and top speed :)
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Arschloch on January 06, 2021, 11:59:47 pm
If you retarded the cam by 1 tooth, that will equate to 18 crankshaft degrees, which sounds a lot, but I have had successful results on Iron Barrel, AVL and CGT engines by doing so, although the CGT is the only type I have yet to retard a standard inlet cam in, the last one I tuned responded very well when I retarded the Hitchcock performance type inlet cam.
 B.W.

I wonder though what the cam spec is on those H's cams, and why retarding it?
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Taurim on January 07, 2021, 12:05:55 am
H' cams spec is on the paper given with it :
Intake: 30°BTDC, 70° ABDC, lift 11.3mm
Exhaust: 70° BBDC, 35° ATDC, lift 10.2mm

So with the intake cam retarded it is : 11.05° BTDC, 88.94° ABDC

Retarding the intake cam also helps to have enough clearance between piston and intake cam in case you shorten the barrel.
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: ace.cafe on January 07, 2021, 12:55:22 am
H' cams spec is on the paper given with it :
Intake: 30°BTDC, 70° ABDC, lift 11.3mm
Exhaust: 70° BBDC, 35° ATDC, lift 10.2mm

So with the intake cam retarded it is : 11.05° BTDC, 88.94° ABDC

Retarding the intake cam also helps to have enough clearance between piston and intake cam in case you shorten the barrel.
It would be a lot better if it was only retarded by 8 degrees instead of 18 degrees.

The method of 18 degrees retarded puts the lobe center at 129°ATDC.
This is not within, or even near, any kind of normal lobe center in anybody's cam book. Even a half-tooth of 9 degrees puts the lobe center at 120°ATDC, which itself is pushing the outer boundaries ofnormal accepted practice. But at least it comes near to an acceptable lobe center spec.

Look, I have promoted retarded intake timing on iron barrel engines which had stock closing angle of 60°ABDC, and a tooth retarded ended up at 78°ABDC with a lobe center of 112°ATDC. This is a relatively normal lobe center with a fairly late intake closing angle for decent higher rpm power. I take no issue with something like that as a useful change.
But, when you start getting really far out of normal boundaries of cam design like a lobe center of 129°ATDC, you might want to be noticing that as a bit odd.
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Taurim on January 07, 2021, 06:47:28 am
You are right. But it works so much better with standard cams !

Bullet Whisperer experience with H’s cams shows it’s also working great.
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: ace.cafe on January 07, 2021, 06:54:42 am
It's your bike.
I'm just pointing out some information.

Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Bullet Whisperer on January 07, 2021, 07:58:02 am
The first time I retarded an inlet cam by 1 tooth, was with a set of 'S' cams in an Electra X [AVL] and I did it purely to get the inlet valve and piston out of each other's way. There were no degree discs or science involved and I did it just to see if it would work and the engine run half decent, as a first step in hopefully, the right direction.
 It turned out I was blown away by how well and how fast that machine could go - so much so, I left it like that and it went home to a very happy owner.
 Funnily enough, that owner sent me his green 535 GT for tuning and this machine received the carb kit, valves and cams from Hitchcocks and I shortened the cylinder barrel by 1.5 mm. These cams were timed on the dots and the bike went well, with around 100 mph capability.
 Next came the yellow 535 GT, to which exactly the same was done, but the piston and inlet valve were getting too close on this one, so I retarded the inlet cam by 1 tooth and once again, crossed my fingers. I was delighted to find it probably had an edge on the green machine and I would genuinely describe it as a 'fast bike'.
 I don't really have anything to gain from all this, and that is really all there is to it, just a happy discovery.
 Perhaps, somewhere within those 18 degrees is an even better timing point, but here, probably for the umpteenth time, is that yellow machine going about its business. Not a great video, but the overtake just after 6 mins demonstrates the performance quite well.
 B.W.

 https://youtu.be/IRr8P0TnbBA
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Taurim on January 07, 2021, 09:38:11 am
I very much prefer to avoid a bent valve and this video makes me think it works very well so I will do the same  :)
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Arschloch on January 07, 2021, 11:47:54 am
I very much prefer to avoid a bent valve and this video makes me think it works very well so I will do the same  :)

That might be a good reason to retard the cam, however the piston valve clearance should be established anyway and if necessary the piston can be adjusted. So the bottom line, to me at least, is if any useful power gains can be realized by retarding it, how they look like and what are the compromises over the rev range.
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Taurim on January 07, 2021, 12:04:13 pm
I wasn't too comfortable with the idea of ​​grinding the stock piston. If ever I install a forged flat top piston I will grind it to give some clearance to the intake valve and set the intake cam on the dot.

But firsts things first : I will use the tried and tested solution and hopefully dyno it  ;)

Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Bullet Whisperer on January 07, 2021, 01:24:48 pm
OK, proof [of sorts] perhaps if it were needed - this green machine is to all intents and purposes the same as the yellow one, but with the Hitchcocks cams timed on the marks [there was just enough clearance between piston and inlet valve on this one to let it be]. I think it will be seen that although transformed into a pretty lively machine, the yellow one with the inlet cam retarded has a significant edge, although neither machine was dyno tested, so I cannot give numbers. The barrels of both machines were shortened in the same manner, by similar amounts and both owners appeared to be very happy with their machines'respective performance increases.
 B.W.

https://youtu.be/iO00SldM1J4
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: ace.cafe on January 07, 2021, 04:15:09 pm
Just from a purely design perspective, the result should be that it takes away from the low/mid rpms in favor of the high rpms.
It does this because piston speeds are lower at lower/mid rpms, and so it hasn't sufficient flow inertia to make full use of the late intake valve closing. Result is some reversion and reduced cylinder fill.
When rpms get higher the flow inertia is sufficient to ramcharge the cylinder, and less/no reversion. Additionally, since the cam centerline is so late, the flow gets abnormally shifted ABDC due to the fact that maximum valve lift occurs too late and the primary flow rate is restricted by a valve only partially open when the flow demand is highest. So it has no choice but to pack it in ABDC when piston speeds are high enough.

Normally when valve timing is retarded in even relatively minor amounts, torque is adversely affected unless compression ratio is increased. You can see this in innumerable engine builder magazine articles where they test different cams, but don't change the pistons. The late valve timing cam always comes up short UNLESS they change pistons to higher compression ratio to compensate for the retarded valve timing.

That is the reasoning behind my recommendation to change pistons for higher compression ratio.

Naturally, of course we have always used and recommended retarded intake valve timing, and have used it on Bullets for more than 10 years, so we have no quarrel about using it. However, what I do have reservations about is changing the intake cam centerline so dramatically, and also not adjusting the compression ratio to suit the late intake valve closing angle.

IMO, an intake cam centerline around 110-113°ATDC is appropriate, and if late intake valve closing is desired for higher rpm power, then add the duration adjustments on both lobe flanks to keep the centerline where it belongs.
I realize that this may cause a need to cut a valve relief in the piston crown with certain cam profiles, but that is a minor task.
I think 89°ABDC is far too late for intake valve closing angle on a street bike with only a very small increase in compression ratio from a squish mod on a dished piston. For a race bike with high compression, that would be more acceptable, and it would surely include more duration on the overlap to balance it out.

Of course, as I said earlier, it's your bike to do with as you wish. And I am not trying to convince to not do it. If you like it, then fine!

All I am trying to do is to make you aware of certain technical design results of the modifications and how the engine is affected.



Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: KarlReinhard on January 09, 2021, 09:57:16 am
Hello TAURIM (off Topic !)

You had mentioned  TENDANCE ROADSTERS . I guess ,they are located in Paris and used to have a nice Event at the Race-Track of CAROLE  (YouTube : Royal Enfield Continental GT Vitesse vs Ducati @ Iron Bikers 2017, Circuit Carole)
I´d be interested to join that Event and have some Laps at the Track. Do you have any Info on that. Maybe a Date when it´l be next Time?

Thanks in Advance
Karl
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Taurim on January 09, 2021, 11:18:44 am
Hello Karl,

The event name was Iron Bikers named now Iron Motors. It is an event dedicated to "Motos de caractère", meaning retro or "neo retro" motorcycles. It uses the Carole track near Paris end of April.
April 24 and 25 this year (if the event is not cancelled or postponed due to pandemic like it was in 2020...)

If you want to ride the track during the event you have to register before 20th of March. The site suggest to register as fast as possible as there is a limited number of places.
Price is 145 € Full leather gear + full face helmet mandatory + a track rider license.
They talk about French FFM licenses NET (training) or NCO (competition). You can also buy a "demo pass" for the week-end for 39 € if you don't have a license.

Track sessions are only demonstration riding : no timing, no racing. Max 40 bikes on track at the same time.

https://www.ironmotors.fr/
https://www.ironmotors.fr/crbst_2.html

You should send a mail with your questions to info@ironmotors.fr

Tendance Roadster Continental GT onboard cam during 2017 event : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VrPnW4bwN5I

The bike probably only have a "stage 1" : filter/exhaust/PC5.
Slow bike but a very fast rider in the corners  :)

A video of 2017 event by Tendance Roadster : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e3GXn4lmggU

(https://i79.servimg.com/u/f79/20/06/54/75/aaa10.jpg) (https://servimg.com/view/20065475/1322)
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: KarlReinhard on January 09, 2021, 03:41:06 pm
Thanks for all that Information !

Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Taurim on January 28, 2021, 06:10:34 pm
The stock seat is too thin and uncomfortable. I replaced it with a Chinese ebay seat which was better but you see this kind of seat everywhere and it did not folow the CGT line.
When I saw Karl's seat photo I saw what I was searching for  :)

Seat done by a local upholstery shop. I'm quite happy with the result and comfort is top notch (Bultex foam + gel)  :D
Of course, the base seat was used to create this one.

(https://i.servimg.com/u/f79/20/06/54/75/2021-012.jpg)

(https://i.servimg.com/u/f79/20/06/54/75/2021-010.jpg)

Thanks Karl for the idea !

(https://i79.servimg.com/u/f79/20/06/54/75/img_5310.jpg)
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: KarlReinhard on January 29, 2021, 08:21:08 am
Well done Taurim ! Perfect Look !
I just finished retarding my Inlet Cam. There is a Lot of theoretical Knowledge about it. My Butt wants to feel the Difference !
So I retarded it Yesterday and now I wait for dry Roads to find out the Difference to how it is now compared to how it was before.
Karl
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Bullet Whisperer on January 29, 2021, 09:08:08 am
Well done Taurim ! Perfect Look !
I just finished retarding my Inlet Cam. There is a Lot of theoretical Knowledge about it. My Butt wants to feel the Difference !
So I retarded it Yesterday and now I wait for dry Roads to find out the Difference to how it is now compared to how it was before.
Karl
Hi Karl, would that still be with the factory cams?
 B.W.
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Taurim on January 29, 2021, 10:09:19 am
Karl you will feel the difference with stock cams. But you will have to modifiy slightly the fuel map to get the most out of it (slightly less injection time in the mid RPM, slightly more in the higher RPM).

For the Hitchcock's performance cams, I was convinced by ace.cafe arguments about the diagram which appears to be nearly perfect without retarding the inlet cam.

So I will probably soon remove the head (again) to carve a 1 or 2 mm deep valve pocket on top of the piston to be on the safe side.
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: KarlReinhard on January 29, 2021, 11:16:10 am
@ Bullet Whisperer: Yes, still the original Cams. Idea is to find out what Difference the Retarding of  the Inlet Cam makes. (no other Modifications)
@ Taurim: As I understand : You have the Hitchcock-Cams in Combination with a Fuel mapping Instrument. Do you still run the original Piston ?
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Taurim on January 29, 2021, 11:23:12 am
I have not installed Performance cams yet. I only use stock cams at the moment (with intake set 1 tooth late).
I use standard piston.

I have installed a Dynojet Power Commander V + the Dynojet AutoTune module with a wide band Lambda sensor to (almost) automatically adjust the fuel map on the go.
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Bullet Whisperer on January 29, 2021, 01:19:41 pm
@ Bullet Whisperer: Yes, still the original Cams. Idea is to find out what Difference the Retarding of  the Inlet Cam makes. (no other Modifications)
@ Taurim: As I understand : You have the Hitchcock-Cams in Combination with a Fuel mapping Instrument. Do you still run the original Piston ?
Thanks, I will be interested to see how it goes - I have a machine sat here waiting for a set of Hitchcocks cams to arrive - all the other tuning work is done. I offered the owner to retard the standard inlet cam by 1 tooth, but he wants to wait for the performance cams, the inlet of which I will be retarding by one tooth, as seen on the very quick yellow machine I tuned in one of my videos.
 B.W.
 B.W.
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: KarlReinhard on January 29, 2021, 09:16:52 pm
Oh ,I know your Videos very well and appreciate them all. There is a lot of knowledge in your Work and you know what you are talking about. My aim with the 535 is not the max Power, just some improvment with not spending too much money. I'm not even sure if I'm willing to spend the money for a Set of Hitchcocks Cams. If I get it to scratch at the Ton with convetional Modifications then I have what I want. I have quite a few more modern bikes that will go much faster. But that is not to compare with the Conti.
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Taurim on January 30, 2021, 03:50:34 pm
Today temperature was a bit cooled outside and no rain for a short time so I was able to ride the CGT and try the better shaped but shorter velocity stack.
It is 25mm shorter. 60mm from the side of the airbox compared to 85mm. 378mm intake tract compared to 403mm.

(https://i79.servimg.com/u/f79/20/06/54/75/cornet11.jpg) (https://servimg.com/view/20065475/1417)

It does not work as well as than the longer one. Top speed was 2 kph less, 148 kph GPS, and it was really more difficult to reach it.
It can definitively be felt when riding it, the engine is not so rev happy than before !

It is visible on the autogenerated trims. Less fuel is required except after 5500 rpm when the engine loses all steam. I'm still using the stock cams with the intake offset by 1 tooth.

(https://i79.servimg.com/u/f79/20/06/54/75/20210110.jpg) (https://servimg.com/view/20065475/1416)
Delta values in % of injection time compared to previous map with the longer velocity stack.

Don't take into account all the minuses on the left of the table, I changed the target AFR in that zone to a leaner 14.0

Generated map with trims included :

(https://i79.servimg.com/u/f79/20/06/54/75/20210111.jpg) (https://servimg.com/view/20065475/1418)
Delta values in % of injection time variation compared to stock map.

The new velocity stack is probably too short. I will cut 25mm of tube  (or a bit more...)  and tape it to the new velocity stack.

I will try that when the weather improves. It is raining again now  :'(
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Arschloch on January 31, 2021, 11:58:23 am
Some interesting results. So how long was the longer stack sticking out in the air box?
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Taurim on January 31, 2021, 12:45:56 pm
The longer stack length inside the airbox is 83 mm

The shorter stack length inside the airbox is 58 mm
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: ace.cafe on January 31, 2021, 05:06:42 pm
It's not the airflow, it's the wave reflection.
You changed the intake wave behavior, and it better suits your current engine set-up.

This is why I always recommended "cut and try" because my past experiences indicated the the calculations are only good enough to get in the general area for length.
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Taurim on January 31, 2021, 05:55:37 pm
To be more precise I would say that the length of the intake tract is a first order parameter. The shape of the intake pipe is a second order parameter.

First I have to find the correct length !

But it's not really useful now as I will soon change the cams. So longer timing for the intake valve opening = different "ideal" length of the intake tract related to the rpm.

You're right, I'm going to have to experiment with different lengths with the new setup. In the end, I will have to cut the better shaped air horn to this length to gain those extra % which will probably be totally negligible ;D
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Arschloch on January 31, 2021, 06:17:23 pm
This is some good results and a creative measurement method with the Autotune. So far we had to relay only on the butt dyno and might have been little bit too short.  :D
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: KarlReinhard on February 01, 2021, 07:39:36 pm
Hello Taurim,
I'm planning on a bit more Displacement. (bigger Bore) At the Moment I'm comparing several Pistons to find out which one to use. Would like to know the Wall-Thickness of the Cylinder Sleeve. Did you measure it when you had yours apart?
( Maybe anybody else has these Numbers for me!?)
Greetings Karl
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Taurim on February 01, 2021, 07:55:31 pm
Sorry I did not measured it but the wall is very thin. I don't think it it possible to bore it any bigger.

(https://i79.servimg.com/u/f79/20/06/54/75/2020-121.jpg) (https://servimg.com/view/20065475/1427)
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: ace.cafe on February 01, 2021, 10:27:26 pm
Hello Taurim,
I'm planning on a bit more Displacement. (bigger Bore) At the Moment I'm comparing several Pistons to find out which one to use. Would like to know the Wall-Thickness of the Cylinder Sleeve. Did you measure it when you had yours apart?
( Maybe anybody else has these Numbers for me!?)
Greetings Karl
88mm has been done. Some people have talked about 89mm, but I don't know anyone who actually did it.

The thing is that if the cylinder wall flexes and compromises ring sealing, you lose more power than might be gained by the bore increase.

If you are doing it for airflow, you can unshroud the intake valve at the outer chamber wall, and then bevel the cylinder liner at the same location to eliminate the ridge, and use a custom head gasket. We tried that on our first 535 GT Fireball and it worked out fine. But be aware that the flow in that location isn't much, due to the shape of the port short turn, so benefits are small.
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Adrian II on February 02, 2021, 01:47:48 am
The outside diameter of the lower part of the cylinder liner is about 94mm, slightly wider than the iron barrel 500 Bullet. So an 87mm bore would leave a wall thickness of 3.5mm.

Despite not having a CGT 535 I do have a cylinder barrel and piston for one of these. ??? I will go and measure it up properly later.

For anything beyond 88mm you could possibly have a new oversize liner fitted, though that would need the crankcase mouth to be bored out to suit. I don't know how much alloy there is around the root of the fins, overbore the alloy outer of the cylinder too far during re-linering, and you will end up with a pile of black powder-coated alloy rings!  ;D

A.
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Arschloch on February 02, 2021, 08:54:14 am
90mm piston could maybe work. 2mm wall thickness.

https://youtu.be/K37rXoEZ4QI

Sealing issues at the head should not be an issue as with the 1680cc VW engines, the 2 mm walls might be on the limit vs. 1.3mm on the 1680cc engine. However the VW barrel is stabilized with the cooling fins over the whole stroke while in the uce the alloy section covers only 54.5mm. Otoh the combustion pressure near BDC should be already bit lower than in the upper part of the stroke.

Some 37.5cc to gain.  ::)
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Adrian II on February 02, 2021, 11:18:39 am
That'll save my vernier caliper's batteries, thank you!

A.
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: KarlReinhard on February 02, 2021, 12:13:23 pm
Thank you Guys for the Help !
I'm gettig 3 different Pistons from different Manufacturers. Just for Measurements and Comparison.I guess that 2 mm more Bore would still be ok for the Construction. I have to give it a try and then we'll see. On some of my tuned Kawasaki Engines (4 Zyl in Line) I have only 2 mm left for the Sleeve Wall. And that works still well.Even under Race Conditions.
Karlson
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Arschloch on February 02, 2021, 02:37:05 pm
That'll save my vernier caliper's batteries, thank you!

A.

Is there a SR44 battery shortage in the UK?  ;D
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Adrian II on February 02, 2021, 02:44:45 pm
No, just me being lazy!  ;)

For what it's worth, the 84mm bore 500 UCE/EFI Bullets can use the 87mm piston as on oversize, same as with the Electra-X/AVL500. In this case the liner thickness would be reduced from 4mm to 2.5mm, if I remember correctly.

A.
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: wr6133 on February 02, 2021, 03:17:16 pm
Is there a SR44 battery shortage in the UK?  ;D

If they are made in the EU then probably........ wanna trade some for unpurified shellfish and lobsters? We got loads of them  ;D
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Arschloch on February 02, 2021, 07:30:24 pm
If they are made in the EU then probably........ wanna trade some for unpurified shellfish and lobsters? We got loads of them  ;D

....keep the shellfish and the lobsters, send the cod over.  ;)  ....fish&chips, not too fond of the deep frying methods they use on the island, however cod is great, kind of the only fish I like to eat.  ;D
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Taurim on February 03, 2021, 10:57:41 pm
Today I lengthened the aluminium intake horn by 25mm (from 90 to 105mm).

(https://i79.servimg.com/u/f79/20/06/54/75/2021-013.jpg) (https://servimg.com/view/20065475/1428)

(https://i79.servimg.com/u/f79/20/06/54/75/2021-014.jpg) (https://servimg.com/view/20065475/1429)

I don't think it is a good idea to make it any longer as it will be too close from the airbox read wall.

I hope to test it by the end of the week  :)
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Taurim on February 05, 2021, 07:18:48 pm
I was able to test ride the 535 with the longer air horn today fo 100 Km.

With 11°C and a road almost dry It was a nice ride  :) (especially since I am teleworking 100% of the time since the beginning of the pandemic ! Some fresh air is welcome !)

Performance is definitely there with 151 kph (GPS) at the same place where I was able to reach 147 kph with the 25mm shorter air horn.
Reaching 147 kph was easy unlike 1 week ago.

Here is the delta injection map compared to 1 week ago. Fuel requirement is higher from 3750 to 4750 rpm but almost no difference from 5 K rpm.   I don't know how to read that, especially since 147 to 151 kph = 5250 to 5400 rpm  ???
Fuel requirement is lower from 2250 to 3500 rpm but frankly I was not able to tell the difference when riding it.

(https://i.servimg.com/u/f79/20/06/54/75/20210211.jpg) (https://servimg.com/view/20065475/1434)


Here is the final map compared to stock. The big difference is from 4750 to 5750 rpm and it can definitively be felt !

(https://i.servimg.com/u/f79/20/06/54/75/20210210.jpg) (https://servimg.com/view/20065475/1433)


Starting tomorrow I will change the cams, remove the head one more time, grind a valve pocket in the piston on the intake side and probably remove a mm from the head to increase the CR  8)
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Arschloch on February 05, 2021, 07:24:03 pm
Nice. Definitely looking forward to the results with H's cam and what it does to the stack length.  :)
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Taurim on February 06, 2021, 02:36:44 pm
Here we go again !

(https://i79.servimg.com/u/f79/20/06/54/75/2021-015.jpg) (https://servimg.com/view/20065475/1435)
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Taurim on February 06, 2021, 03:25:07 pm
I did some measurements on the stock and H cams.

Officially H cams provide 11.3mm intake valve lift and 10.2mm exhaust valve lift

From my measurements :

Stock intake cam provides 7.2 mm * 1.2 -> 8.64 mm valve lift
Stock exhaust cam 7.3 mm * 1.2 -> 8.76 mm

H intake cam 9.2 mm * 1.2 -> 11.04 mm
H exhaust cam 8.2 * 1.2 -> 9.84 mm
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Arschloch on February 06, 2021, 03:33:24 pm
Interesting. I think this deviation can be assigned to the tolerances in the rocker arm ratio.
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: ace.cafe on February 06, 2021, 03:51:42 pm
Interesting. I think this deviation can be assigned to the tolerances in the rocker arm ratio.
Yes, the factory rockers and blocks system is a sloppy area.
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Taurim on February 06, 2021, 04:07:30 pm
My measurements are taken on the cams and not at the valves. I assume that the rocker ratio is 1.2. I understand that it can be more or less than that...

One important point is the variation required in pushrods length
It will be +1.5 mm on the intake and + 0.3 mm on the exhaust

Minus the 1.15 mm I removed on the cylinder to raise the CR and have 1 mm squish.

I will have to measure the rocker blocks to head distance before tightening to see if I can remove some height from the head (should be from 1 to 2.5mm). Not sure about that.
As I have a spare head and rocker blocks and 2 sets of pushrods with different lengths, I will have to check with everything I have to find the better combination possible.
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Bullet Whisperer on February 06, 2021, 04:42:03 pm
My measurements are taken on the cams and not at the valves. I assume that the rocker ratio is 1.2. I understand that it can be more or less than that...

One important point is the variation required in pushrods length
It will be +1.5 mm on the intake and + 0.3 mm on the exhaust

Minus the 1.15 mm I removed on the cylinder to raise the CR and have 1 mm squish.

I will have to measure the rocker blocks to head distance before tightening to see if I can remove some height from the head (should be from 1 to 2.5mm). Not sure about that.
As I have a spare head and rocker blocks and 2 sets of pushrods with different lengths, I will have to check with everything I have to find the better combination possible.
Perhaps I have misunderstood something here, but if you have already shortened the barrel by 1.15 mm to get 1 mm squish clearance, why would you want / need to remove height from the head as well? I would think, from my own experiences, your valves will already be getting very close to the piston crown, around the overlap TDC, unless you are going to cut into the piston crown as well, to make more room.
 I have found the standard pushrods work fine with the H cams, when shortening of the cylinder barrels by 1 -1.5 mm has been done, but, as already mentioned, I retarded one inlet H cam by 1 tooth off the marks to give a little more space there and in doing so, with no great expectations, found it perked up the performance even more!
 B.W.
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: ace.cafe on February 06, 2021, 05:05:42 pm
My measurements are taken on the cams and not at the valves. I assume that the rocker ratio is 1.2. I understand that it can be more or less than that...

One important point is the variation required in pushrods length
It will be +1.5 mm on the intake and + 0.3 mm on the exhaust

Minus the 1.15 mm I removed on the cylinder to raise the CR and have 1 mm squish.

I will have to measure the rocker blocks to head distance before tightening to see if I can remove some height from the head (should be from 1 to 2.5mm). Not sure about that.
As I have a spare head and rocker blocks and 2 sets of pushrods with different lengths, I will have to check with everything I have to find the better combination possible.

Before doing that, you may want to apply some Dychem or Prussian Blue dye on the valve stem tips and rocker wipers to assess what sort of rocker wipe it is getting on the valve stem tips. And also where the rocker arm becomes perpendicular to the pushrod.
You want a short wipe mark on the valve stem tip, as centered as possible, and rocker perpendicular to the pushrod at about mid lift.

Don't skim any material off the bottom of the head unless it's not flat.. It's bad for flow.
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Arschloch on February 06, 2021, 05:13:38 pm
You could as well weld some aluminium inside that chamber instead of milling the head.
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Taurim on February 06, 2021, 05:28:34 pm
Perhaps I have misunderstood something here, but if you have already shortened the barrel by 1.15 mm to get 1 mm squish clearance, why would you want / need to remove height from the head as well? I would think, from my own experiences, your valves will already be getting very close to the piston crown, around the overlap TDC, unless you are going to cut into the piston crown as well, to make more room.
 I have found the standard pushrods work fine with the H cams, when shortening of the cylinder barrels by 1 -1.5 mm has been done, but, as already mentioned, I retarded one inlet H cam by 1 tooth off the marks to give a little more space there and in doing so, with no great expectations, found it perked up the performance even more!
 B.W.

As I will install H cam not retarded, I have to cut a pocket into the piston crown to make some room for the intake valve. 1.15 mm or a little bit more to be on the safe side.

The idea to cut a slightly deeper pocket was to give a little more room to raise the compression ratio by skimming the bottom of the head. But ace.cafe just wrote that it is a bad idea for flow.
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: ace.cafe on February 06, 2021, 05:36:22 pm
As I will install H cam not retarded, I have to cut a pocket into the piston crown to make some room for the intake valve. 1.15 mm or a little bit more to be on the safe side.

The idea to cut a slightly deeper pocket was to give a little more room to raise the compression ratio by skimming the bottom of the head. But ace.cafe just wrote that it is a bad idea for flow.
Clearance of 1.5mm piston-to-valve on the intake side is considered standard. Also make your piston relief cut at least 0.5mm wider than the valve would touch the piston for "wiggle room".
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Taurim on February 06, 2021, 05:58:51 pm
I use a wiggling tool  ;)
And abrasive is cut slightly bigger than the valve diameter.

(https://i79.servimg.com/u/f79/20/06/54/75/tool10.jpg) (https://servimg.com/view/20065475/1436)

It's going well and it produces a very smooth carving. But I have to rebuild the abrasive face from time to time.
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Taurim on February 06, 2021, 06:24:35 pm
The contraption in  place :

(https://i79.servimg.com/u/f79/20/06/54/75/2021-017.jpg) (https://servimg.com/view/20065475/1438)

Digging :

(https://i79.servimg.com/u/f79/20/06/54/75/2021-018.jpg) (https://servimg.com/view/20065475/1439)

It's aproximately 1.8mm deep (measured with a feeler gauge). With some polishing it should be correct.

(https://i79.servimg.com/u/f79/20/06/54/75/2021-016.jpg) (https://servimg.com/view/20065475/1437)

Tomorrow I will have to measure available valve space at TDC when the head is bolted in place.
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: ace.cafe on February 06, 2021, 07:56:58 pm
Looks good.
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Arschloch on February 07, 2021, 08:42:52 am
How good does the flexible drill shaft work? My past experiences with this sort of things was not all that great. Is that some new design?
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Taurim on February 07, 2021, 09:23:50 am
I'm sure it's pure crap that will bend or break as soon as you apply some serious torque through it  ;D

Here I only use it to rotate the valve with some light pressure applied so it's the perfect tool for the job  ;)
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Taurim on February 07, 2021, 12:48:37 pm
With piston set at TDC and the head bolted in place with a used head gasket I measured the free drop available for the valves  :

Intake : 4.5 mm
Exhaust : 5 mm (with no valve pocket in the piston crown)

Did you think this is enough ?

I know that to have the definitive answer to that question I should test-assemble the pushrods and rocker blocks... which I will probably do. I did not receive a new head gasket so the engine will stay open for the moment... and the weather is awful again so there is no hurry  :'(

By rotating a (used) valve against the piston, I was able to draw the valve mark at the bottom of the pocket. I was able to validate the available play between the side of the valve and the side of the pocket : nearly 1 mm, that's fine.

@ace.cafe : you said that removing some material from the bottom of the head is bad for flow... But it will increase the compression ratio which is a good thing (my current CR is 9.3).
What do you think is the best thing to do ?
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: ace.cafe on February 07, 2021, 01:21:22 pm
First, regarding the free drop being enough, it all depends on your cam profile at the area around TDC. How much valve lift does it have at TDC and maybe 10 to 20 degrees ATDC, so it doesnt touch the piston.

You can assemble with light springs, rotate the engine up near TDC and see how far you can push down the valve at TDC and each 5 degrees after that until the piston is going down the hole faster than the valve is opening.
Or, you can put a 1.5mm thick pad of soft clay on the piston valve relief, assemble the engine, and rotate it by hand slowly past TDC to maybe 20°ATDC, take it apart, and see if there is a mark pressed into the clay by the valve. If no mark, all is okay.

Regarding milling the head, I would leave it alone, and break in the engine with some riding, and then do a compression test to see what it has. The squish mod helps compression a lot, so it may be enough for street use.
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Bullet Whisperer on February 07, 2021, 04:05:48 pm
Also, it is difficult to assess valve to piston clearances, due to the nature of the hydraulic tappets 'taking up'. I once tried to see how much further I could lift a valve via a rocker on one of these engines, only for the tappet to hold it there, rather than allowing it to return when I let it go, making it very difficult to gauge the amount of extra free movement. For that reason, I tend to shift the timing of the cams - 1 tooth more advanced for inlet and 1 tooth more retarded for exhaust and then carefully turn the engine and if there is no interference, I put the timing back to where I want it and we're good to go.
 B.W.
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Taurim on February 07, 2021, 04:48:58 pm
After having assembler the head and the rocker blocks I took some more measurements  :

Intake valve lift : 11.2 mm (in line with H data)
Lift at TDC : 2.5 mm -> So without the 1.8mm pocket, it would be VERY close to the piston !

I have used some plastiline on top of the piston to try to find the available space but it is a little bit too soft and partially sticks to the valves so it's not easy to "read" the result.
It should be OK on the intake side but I found the exhaust is dangerously close to the top of the piston (may be related to the problem below...).
I will carve a small exhaust pocket too to be really safe...

I have one problem with the exhaust pushrods. There is a 3 mm length difference between the stock one and H provided pushrod.

With the stock one, I have no preload at all. With the longer one distance between block and head before tightening is 2.5 mm. The upper value given by H.
Preload was 1.5mm on the intake with H pushrod. After tightening and letting the hydraulic tappet bleed itself, the available play permit to just rotate the pushrod : perfect.

On the exhaust side it is impossible to rotate it even after 1 hour  :(
I tried the 2 sets of exhaust blocks + rockers I have but the result is the same.

So I have 2 solutions :
- remove 1.5mm to the base of the exhaust rocker block and use the stock pushrod
- create a 1mm thick plate and insert is below the exhaust rocker block and use H pushrod

I think I should use the 1st solution to avoid any oil pressure leak possible with the second solution...
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Taurim on February 07, 2021, 05:18:46 pm
Free drop is now 5.5 on the exhaust side. It should be enough.
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: ace.cafe on February 07, 2021, 05:36:17 pm
You are talking about possibly altering rocker geometry, and also using much higher lift than stock which may have already had effects on the rocker/valve tip wiping interface.

I recommed using the dye or Sharpie to mark the valve tips and hand-turning the engine 720° to see the scrape marks on the valve tip, such as I described earlier.
The shortest wipe mark, closest to being centered on the valve tip is preferred.

Set up your rocker geometry and pushrod length to suit. You may need spacer blocks, or different length pushrods, or a combination of both. The "mid-lift" system of setting pushrod length so that the rocker arm is perpendicular to the pushrod at mid-lift is a good approach.
Remember, if you raise the rocker block with a spacer, it will affect the reach to the valve tip, because of the 26° valve inclination angle. It may be useful in some circumstances, or bad in other circumstances.

My recommendation is to set the lifter preload at less than your piston-to-valve safety margin distance, so that if the springs oscillate and the lifter pumps up to take up the distance, you won't clash the valve to the piston.
In other words, if your p/v clearance is 1.5mm, your preload should be less than that. I normally spec about 0.5mm minimum - 1mm preload max.

You can buy quality pushrods from any racing pushrod maker like Smith Brothers or Trends Performance, etc. Just specify effective length(tip to bottom of cup) and use the same diameter and cup type as stock. They are not expensive.
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Taurim on February 07, 2021, 07:03:55 pm
Not expensive but it is only available in the US so a veeeery long time for it to cross the Atlantic during the pandemic (tried that recently...) and quite expensive in various taxes  ;)

What about lowering the block by 1 mm ?

From the axis of the rocker to the mid of the visible contact surface with the valve (more or less centered on the cam) there is 22 mm
So the angle variation with a rocker box lowered by 1mm will be 2.6°

This should give a preload close to 1mm using stock pushrod.
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: ace.cafe on February 07, 2021, 07:09:35 pm
Might be good with that.

You have to go with what your individual measurements and tests tell you.
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Taurim on February 07, 2021, 07:13:54 pm
It's the easiest path  ;)

By the way :

(https://i79.servimg.com/u/f79/20/06/54/75/img_2822.jpg) (https://servimg.com/view/20065475/1440)
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: ace.cafe on February 07, 2021, 07:22:55 pm
Looks fine.
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Bullet Whisperer on February 07, 2021, 07:43:30 pm
You could always shorten that pushrod by 1 - 2 mm ...
 B.W.
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Taurim on February 07, 2021, 07:46:40 pm
You could always shorten that pushrod by 1 - 2 mm ...
 B.W.

How can I do that ? It looks like it is crimped on one side.
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Arschloch on February 07, 2021, 07:50:44 pm
Maybe you can turn off that crimping if you have access to a lathe?
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Taurim on February 07, 2021, 07:58:05 pm
That's a good Idea. I have a machining shop 3 Km away. I will ask them and it solves the rocker box geometry problem !
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Taurim on February 08, 2021, 01:35:30 pm
I gave the push rod to the machining shop.

The problem (not for machining) is that the tip is heat treated. I hope it is not only surface treatment or I will have to find a custom push rod  :(
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Arschloch on February 08, 2021, 01:43:26 pm
If they use plenty of coolant the tip won't see much of an temp rise at all.
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Taurim on February 08, 2021, 01:52:04 pm
My concern is more if the tip is only surface treated, the machining would remove the hardening...
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: ace.cafe on February 08, 2021, 02:34:48 pm
If that is the case, then the shop may have a small induction hardener on the premises. Not uncommon for an automotive machine shop to have one.
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Taurim on February 08, 2021, 02:57:22 pm
Already asked them, they don't, although they have quite a lot of machining centers, CNC lathe...
We'll see when it is done !
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Bullet Whisperer on February 08, 2021, 06:58:39 pm
All you have to do is grip the pushrod tube in a lathe chuck, close to one or other pushrod end fitting, then carefully grip the hardened end with a pair of Mole Grips or similar and twist and pull on the end - warming it might help - and it should pull off from the alloy tubing. Next, cut the alloy tubing by the required amount, preferably in the lathe, to enure a true and even end, then press the pushrod end back on, job done, I have done many in this manner for our RE racers, with no trouble.
 B.W.
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Taurim on February 08, 2021, 07:23:02 pm
It is probably the best solution but I have no lathe to do that correctly and the machining shop won't do that kind of job.

Fingers crossed for the machining option  ;)
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Arschloch on February 11, 2021, 07:35:21 pm
It is probably the best solution but I have no lathe to do that correctly and the machining shop won't do that kind of job.

Fingers crossed for the machining option  ;)

Indeed, that's something I've had in mind. But why Mole Grips and not ordinary pliers.  ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: jez on February 11, 2021, 10:04:23 pm
'cause they "grip" better
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Bullet Whisperer on February 12, 2021, 07:46:03 am
'cause they "grip" better
In a nutshell  8) 8) 8) 8)
 B.W.
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Taurim on February 12, 2021, 11:06:22 am
I finally followed Mr Henshaw advice  ;)

Getting the tip out was not easy ! It required quite some heat and a good mole grip.

Machined the push rod 1.5mm shorter, put the tip in the fridge, put it back in place which was a lot easier : done  :D

(https://i79.servimg.com/u/f79/20/06/54/75/culbu10.jpg) (https://servimg.com/view/20065475/1454)
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Adrian II on February 12, 2021, 11:22:35 am
Are these solid alumin(i)um push rods or tubes?

A.
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Taurim on February 12, 2021, 11:31:39 am
Are these solid alumin(i)um push rods or tubes?

A.

Tubes.
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: gizzo on February 12, 2021, 11:34:33 am
I finally followed Mr Henshaw advice  ;)

Getting the tip out was not easy ! It required quite some heat and a good mole grip.

Machined the push rod 1.5mm shorter, put the tip in the fridge, put it back in place which was a lot easier : done  :D

(https://i79.servimg.com/u/f79/20/06/54/75/culbu10.jpg) (https://servimg.com/view/20065475/1454)

Good to know!
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Adrian II on February 12, 2021, 10:59:02 pm
Tubes.

Thank you. I might need some custom push roads for my AVL/Electra-X hybrid, but I will be looking at solid.

A.
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Bullet Whisperer on February 12, 2021, 11:05:59 pm
Thank you. I might need some custom push roads for my AVL/Electra-X hybrid, but I will be looking at solid.

A.
Tubes are / can be stronger than solid  ;)
 B.W.
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Taurim on February 13, 2021, 08:02:06 pm
Test assembly of the head today : 1.25 mm under intake and exhaust rocker blocks before tightening. Both lifters purge correctly.

I filled the valve pockets with plasticine : no valve trace in it after rotating the engine. I have at least 1.5mm free on both sides.

I can start the final reassembly  :)
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: KarlReinhard on February 14, 2021, 08:22:45 am
Good Morning Taurim,
You are doing a very interesting Job on your Engine. I follow that every day. Wish you a good Result after he assembling is done. In my Country we have Temperature below the Freezing Point. But it's dry and the Sun is shining . So I'll take my Bike and go for a ride.
KarlReinhard
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Taurim on February 14, 2021, 02:57:41 pm
I hope you had a nice ride Karl. It is freezing since a week here and some snow so the first ride of the 535 if not for today  :'(

Reassembly was successful  :D It started immediately with no engine fault light and no strange noise except the put put put put put  ;D
The idle was at less than 800 rpm and I had to hold the throttle slightly open to not stall. It seems the new camshafts make a difference.
I just had to open the idle screw by half a turn to correct that.
I was afraid that the starter might not be able to start the engine with the increased compression and the suppression of the auto decompressor but it did not have any problem to start it every time.

A little video of the second run after having adjusted the idle :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4oAlkl8cHjI

Happy  ;D
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Arschloch on February 14, 2021, 04:05:25 pm
Put a good battery in there. The stock lead clump turns the engine over slowly compared with a good one. It did backfire on me couple of time with increased compression. So I've put a fit battery and retarded the ignition at starting revs. I don't want to hear that noise again when the engine turns that 5 starter gears in reverse.  :)
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Taurim on February 14, 2021, 04:10:42 pm
I have installed a brand new gel battery charged with an Optimate when not in use  ;)
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: KarlReinhard on February 14, 2021, 04:40:58 pm
Congratulations to that Result ! Curious to hear from you how the Bike is performing now after all your modifications. About the Battery: I'm using a Lithium-Ionen Battery in mine. It is part of the 11 kilos in Weight that I shaved off. Plus these things have about 3 times the Starting Power compared to a Lead Batterie. Was riding my Trials 500 today. It's so much Fun !
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Taurim on February 14, 2021, 04:51:01 pm
Nice picture and a trial put to good use  :)

I don't have much confidence in after market Li-Ion battery. You see reports of a car or a bike fire from time to time...

In my Lotus I have a Odyssey battery (AGM) which is a third of the weight and 2 times the cranking power. I will have to check if they have a reference which will fit in the 535...
Heavier than a Li-Ion though.
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Richard230 on February 14, 2021, 10:26:05 pm
I have installed a brand new gel battery charged with an Optimate when not in use  ;)

Last year I installed a gel battery in my BMW F650GS and it always struggled to start the bike. It would groan and barely turn over the starter. So I recently replaced the gel battery with an expensive lithium battery that I bought from Batterystuff.com and now the starter really spins and the bike starts right up. Apparently those gel batteries don't seem to have much in the way of cranking power.
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Taurim on February 14, 2021, 11:09:05 pm
Gel batteries (not AGM) have less cranking power but they have the best resistance to a high level of vibrations... which is useful with a RE single  ;D

If you want more cranking power and avoid Li-ion « problems », AGM is the way to go.
Odyssey or Varta Powersports AGM for example.
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Arschloch on February 15, 2021, 07:44:03 am
Gel battery is pretty resilent. You can build it in vertical and no fluid will leak. They are the easiest to rescue when a deep discharge has occured for any reason - can happen to the best of us. They are not expensive compared with lithium. They weigh less than lead acid and don't need as much maintainance as lead acid neither lithium. They won't burn down your vehicle and they won't vibrate appart.

I've installed an gel battery with half the size and weight of the stock lead accid one. It cranks way better than the stock lead accid - which may have been the cheapest available in India. I don't need ultimate performance for starting the engine, neighte a huge capacity. It's doing its job, doesn't crank as enthusiastically though as the lithium I've had before that found its way to the yard after I could not look after it for 3 months.
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Richard230 on February 15, 2021, 02:26:36 pm
Gel battery is pretty resilent. You can build it in vertical and no fluid will leak. They are the easiest to rescue when a deep discharge has occured for any reason - can happen to the best of us. They are not expensive compared with lithium. They weigh less than lead acid and don't need as much maintainance as lead acid neither lithium. They won't burn down your vehicle and they won't vibrate appart.

I've installed an gel battery with half the size and weight of the stock lead accid one. It cranks way better than the stock lead accid - which may have been the cheapest available in India. I don't need ultimate performance for starting the engine, neighte a huge capacity. It's doing its job, doesn't crank as enthusiastically though as the lithium I've had before that found its way to the yard after I could not look after it for 3 months.

The Bike Master-brand gel battery that I bought was actually slightly heavier than the previous AGM battery that had been installed in my F650GS, although it was the same size and had claimed power specifications as did the AGM battery. I think gel batteries are great for many types of usages, but are not the best for vehicle starting where quick high-drain power is needed. I note that BMW used to supply gel batteries as standard fitment on their new motorcycles for a few years during the early 2000's, including offering a special BMW-brand charger to recharge them. Sometime around 2004 or 2005 they dropped the gel batteries and switched to BMW-brand AGM batteries made in Germany by Exide. Naturally, they also offered their own BMW-brand $140 charger to maintain them.  ::)

I might add that the BMW-brand AGM battery that came with my 2009 BMW F650GS only lasted 6 months until it died of "sudden-death syndrome" and left me stranded at the side of the road, needing a tow to the local BMW shop where the battery was replaced. A few months after that, the 23-month old BMW-brand AGM battery that came with my 2007 R1200R also died while I was visiting my brother and a jump start from his truck would start it but when the jumper cables were removed, the engine died again. That required another tow to the BMW shop where the battery was also replaced as it was just within BMW's 2-year (US) battery warranty with another BMW-brand AGM battery. So I have become a little leery regarding AGM batteries.

I might add that the Indian-manufactured Exide ETZ9-BS AGM battery that came as original fitment in my 2020 KTM 390 Duke would only hold a charge for a few days before the voltage would drop to 12.1 volts and would need to be recharged with a Battery Tender Plus motorcycle battery maintainer. I replaced it after 6 months with a Chinese-made AGM battery which seems to be working better.

I have name-brand LiFePo4 batteries installed in three of my motorcycles, including my 2011 Bullet which has been functioning well for the past 8 years and still spins the engine over smartly (a lot faster than my foot). While I have had nothing but trouble with AGM batteries recently, so far I have never had a problem with a lithium battery.   :)  Although I will admit that they do cost an arm and a leg.  ::)
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Taurim on February 17, 2021, 05:20:10 pm
I was thinking about my final Autotune generated map :

(https://i.servimg.com/u/f79/20/06/54/75/20210210.jpg)

I think that all negative values are bogus for small throttle openings (up to 20%) because I'm riding the bike on the road and not testing on a dyno.
At 3k RPM and 5% throttle for example, the bike is probably coasting, not accelerating. So the Autotune probably find that the stock ECU injection timing is too rich and wants to go leaner.
It's only on a dyno you would try to maintain 3K RPM with 5% opening.

But it's a bad idea to set the map too lean for small openings. Some injection will still be needed accelerating with mid RPM/low throttle.
I felt that during my tests when gently re-accelerating in a village, the bike stutters a little because it is too lean with this map. And it does not last long enough for the wideband sensor + Autotune to get the lean measurement.

So I think I will be better at replacing all negative values with a 0 up to 20% throttle.
It is probably useless to Autotune in this range.

Now that I replaced the cams I have to restart the mapping process from scratch so I will try to use this method.

The weather forecast for this Week-end is Sun and 15°C :)
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Taurim on February 20, 2021, 12:25:34 pm
Did a few kilometers today and something is wrong and I don't know what yet.

When I started everything was OK although idle was a little low. On the first Kilometers the bike was not pulling below 3.5 K RPM a little bit better after that. (but the map is not done yet)

At the first stop the bike stalled. I had to open the gaz a little to restart it. During one try I had that horrendous noise probably from the starter sprague when the engine stalled.

Came back at home. I tried to open the idle screw one half turn more but it did not make a difference. No stable idling without opening the gaz to keep it over 1.5 K RPM.

I started to disassemble some bits.
Push rods play is OK. When turning the engine there is oil dripping from the rocker blocks so oil circulation seems to be OK
Plug color is OK
Compression ratio is OK at 11 bars/150 PSI

But when I turn the engine with the kick (and no plug) I have a click noise each turn which was not there before  :o

I have some problems to solve...
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Adrian II on February 20, 2021, 05:04:09 pm
Do the EFI Bullets use adjustable cam spindles?

A.
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Taurim on February 20, 2021, 05:20:59 pm
Yes. I adjusted it perfectly (or so I think !) and there was no noise at all during the first starts.

Maybe my setting has changed... or the interface between the cams and the cams spindle seized !

I noticed there is no oil pockets in the bore of the H cams...

(https://i79.servimg.com/u/f79/20/06/54/75/cams10.jpg) (https://servimg.com/view/20065475/1520)

But the material is different...

There is only one way to know : yet another disassembly  :'(

This afternoon I did not touched the 535 anymore. I took the Ducati out for a ride. It was great fun and perfect to forget about the little troubles  ;D
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: KarlReinhard on February 20, 2021, 05:34:36 pm
Since it is no spaceship technology and easy to assemble I doubt that you made a mistake by doing that. I would at first disconnect the Power-Commander und run the bike with the stock UCI . One source of error less.
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Taurim on February 20, 2021, 05:46:21 pm
My first concern is the clicking noise in the lower part of the engine ! It needs to be addressed.
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Adrian II on February 20, 2021, 07:03:48 pm
If the locknut for the outer spindle has come loose it might have slackened off the clearance the cam gear teeth. So when you turn the crank and the lobe of the relevant cam starts to close after being fully open, valve spring pressure via the valve train will try and spin the cam round, if clearance has opened up between the gear teeth. Loosely-meshing gear teeth might cause your noise, it was seen as a problem by Indian riders on the old iron barrel models with fixed cam spindles, which is why the adjustable version was developed.

Whether any of this is relevant with the EFI/UCE hydraulic tappets, I don't know!

A.
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Taurim on February 20, 2021, 07:41:45 pm
It is !
I think I have tightened everything correctly... But with the clicking noise appearing after only 2 or 3 Kilometres, there is something wrong.
And yes this ticking noise can come from cam gears. Before the first disassembly (where I retarded the intake cam) my engine was quite noisy and it was silent after reassembly.
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Arschloch on February 20, 2021, 09:43:03 pm
I would not worry too much about the ticking, it increases a with warmed up engine. I think it's because the alloy housing expands and so does the lash on those gears. It´s worthwhile to check that they are not sizing but the noise is likely to stay no matter how much you tighten the lash. There is not exactly a forced lubrication, the oil goes from the crank housing through the spindles and the centrifugal force on the rotating cam pumps it through.

In my bike all bronze bushings would size which is why I went with needle bearings after the first set of cam´s lost a tooth or two.  Haven't heard of anything of that sort from H's cams.

Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Taurim on February 20, 2021, 10:20:17 pm
With my previous setting with the stock cams, no play but just sliding laterally without effort, I had almost no ticking noise when hot.
I did the same setup here and it was silent but now it is loud and at the same time the engine stopped idling correctly.
I have to check that  :-[

I'm affraid one of the cam partially seized on the eccentric and made it turn partially, hence the noise.
But I have no idea of how this can be linked to bad idling  :o
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Arschloch on February 20, 2021, 10:41:08 pm
Can be because if it has eaten out a millimetre of bronze the timing will be off. Was the case with mine.

If I remember correctly my first set of cam bushing did actually work, it only started rotating on the OD and they started working as some kind of floating bushes. After I took action to prevent them from coming loose on the OD they would size quickly.
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Taurim on February 20, 2021, 11:02:22 pm
So there is probably no enough play between the bronze bushings and the eccentric cam spindles ?

Or I have not set enough play when adjusting the eccentric cam spindles and it's my fault...

We'll see...

Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Arschloch on February 21, 2021, 07:24:13 am
So there is probably no enough play between the bronze bushings and the eccentric cam spindles ?

Or I have not set enough play when adjusting the eccentric cam spindles and it's my fault...

We'll see...

Possible but I doubt it. In my case the lubrication was not sufficient and the load rating of that 5/8" bush was on the limit.
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Taurim on February 21, 2021, 09:48:13 am
Disassembled the engine one more time this morning

Something is wrong here !

(https://i79.servimg.com/u/f79/20/06/54/75/pb110.jpg) (https://servimg.com/view/20065475/1521)

There was a temporary seize between the exhaust cam and the spindle, just under the cam. When disassembling it, the cam and the spindle were not stuck anymore.
I'm sure I tightened the nut correctly so the contra-rotating exhaust cam probably untightened it.
The noise was caused by the nut hitting the magnetic flywheel and the huge play in the cam gears.
When rotating the engine without the cams there is noise on the starter side

(https://i79.servimg.com/u/f79/20/06/54/75/pb210.jpg) (https://servimg.com/view/20065475/1522)

The cam bore seem to be in pretty good shape. The spindle need to be replaced.

Suggestions gentlemen ?
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Arschloch on February 21, 2021, 09:55:52 am
Well, what a surprise. This is what I did ....  ::)
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Taurim on February 21, 2021, 10:04:26 am
Was it with H cams or ACE cams ?

Did you have the plans for the spindles and the reference of the bearings (just in case  :) ) ?
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Arschloch on February 21, 2021, 10:17:22 am
Was it with H cams or ACE cams ?

Did you have the plans for the spindles and the reference of the bearings (just in case  :) ) ?

I took stock cams, reground them to the ACE profile. Did some reboring and honing of the centre holes, made some new new spindles out of bearing steel and ground them to the tolerances required to run roler bearings on them. No issues since... dead quite when engine is cold, some ticking with hot engine.
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Adrian II on February 21, 2021, 10:38:08 am
As you have found out, adjustable spindles are just something else to go wrong! For what it's worth my AVL/Electra-X hybrids have all reverted to iron barrel type fixed (i.e. solid) cam spindles, which worked fine on the Bullet for many years. I don't know if they are available for the EFI engines, but if so I would be very tempted to fit some and not worry about cam gear rattling noises or, more importantly, something unscrewing itself like yours has done and slipping out of adjustment.

You might want to run a reamer through the bronze bush or at least go over the seized are with a scraper.

Very late iron barrel cam spindles have the outer ends reduced from ⅝" to 15mm where they sit in the timing cover, same O/D as the end nuts on the adjustable spindles, but I have no idea if the inner ends would fit or could be made to fit the EFI crankcase

Fixed spindles with needle roller bearings would be my preferred option for the cams a tuned CGT, I'm wondering if the needle roller conversion can be done with Redditch "S" cams too... ::)

A.
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Adrian II on February 21, 2021, 10:41:49 am
I took stock cams, reground them to the ACE profile. Did some reboring and honing of the centre holes, made some new new spindles out of bearing steel and ground them to the tolerances required to run roler bearings on them. No issues since... dead quite when engine is cold, some ticking with hot engine.

Are the new spindles non-adjustable? Something less to worry about, if so!

A.
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Arschloch on February 21, 2021, 10:57:11 am
Are the new spindles non-adjustable? Something less to worry about, if so!

A.

Non-adjustable spidles are a no go because you would land up with a fixed gear centre distance, and fixed lash. Roler cam shafts don´t create as much drag on the spindle and it´s less likely to come loose. The other thing is when adjusting the lash, you dont have to worry about keeping a little oil gap for the bronze bush. You just lock it in the position where the gears make contact without tightening it and lock it in place.
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Bullet Whisperer on February 21, 2021, 11:39:42 am
Those eccentric cam spindles are a crap idea - well, a good idea, but badly executed. I tried some in our 350 racer, in place of the solid ones and we were on the last lap of a race at Cadwell, in the lead, when the exhaust eccentric turned, holding the valve off its seat and stopping the engine. Luckily, the valve hadn't touched the piston and I reverted to the solid spindles and lived with a bit more noise after that. You, though, are stuck with the things, so make sure you lock them up tight after adjusting. The bronze bushes in the cams are usually up to the job and have to be better than the steel ones, as used by the Indian factory.
 B.W.
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Arschloch on February 21, 2021, 12:28:14 pm
Those eccentric cam spindles are a crap idea - well, a good idea, but badly executed. I tried some in our 350 racer, in place of the solid ones and we were on the last lap of a race at Cadwell, in the lead, when the exhaust eccentric turned, holding the valve off its seat and stopping the engine. Luckily, the valve hadn't touched the piston and I reverted to the solid spindles and lived with a bit more noise after that. You, though, are stuck with the things, so make sure you lock them up tight after adjusting. The bronze bushes in the cams are usually up to the job and have to be better than the steel ones, as used by the Indian factory.
 B.W.

The factory bushes (on the UCE) are bronze with some sort of coating. I'm not sure the solid bronze bushes are better, in my bike the bushes would last couple of 100km maybe even 1000km before they would give up. If it holds up without issues in your racer than I might have been doing something wrong maybe.
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Adrian II on February 21, 2021, 12:46:33 pm
Your idea of good quality phosphor bronze and the RE factory's idea of good quality phosphor bronze may differ slightly, of course.

A.
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Taurim on February 21, 2021, 01:01:09 pm
Bullet Whisperer : you never had that problem with the yellow and the green EFI ? Or other Bullet EFI with H cam ?

What should I do to avoid this problem in the future ?

I saw that some people create oil pockets in the bores similar to what is done on stock cams.
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Arschloch on February 21, 2021, 01:32:08 pm
The "only" UCE I know of working for a prolonged time with these bronze bushes and high lift cams would be Gashousegorillas café built. He has however used an different approach, by lightening the valvetrain as much as possible, removing the hydraulic lifter and sticking with relatively soft valve springs. That´s how I remember it anyway.
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Bullet Whisperer on February 21, 2021, 02:04:56 pm
Bullet Whisperer : you never had that problem with the yellow and the green EFI ? Or other Bullet EFI with H cam ?

What should I do to avoid this problem in the future ?

I saw that some people create oil pockets in the bores similar to what is done on stock cams.
Neither machine has had any trouble that I know of, and as can be seen in my test ride videos, I gave them a bit of stick within a few miles after the tuning work and fitment of the cams. The Redditch Bullets all had phosphor Bronze bushes in their cams and worked fine, too. Other than those two GT's and the one I have waiting for the next batch of cams to arrive, I haven't done much else with the UCE engines.
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: ace.cafe on February 21, 2021, 03:16:33 pm
One of the issues with higher lift systems is that it is operating near the maximum travel of the valve springs, and there the spring pressure on the cam face is quite high.It could be seeing 240 lbs spring pressure PLUS the ~1.2:1 rocker ratio multiplier giving maybe near 300 lbs pressure on the cam face. That is a lot more than stock.  This creates added stress and wear on the system.

Additional bearing diameter such as Otto did is helpful.
However, we have seen valve train applications with this sort of stress on Iron Barrel engines without any such problems arising, so perhaps a lubrication issue in the UCE layout may be part of the problem.
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Arschloch on February 21, 2021, 05:28:52 pm
The lube layout may very vell be part of it. The sump is a semi dry sump. The sidecover is another position where the spindles could suck oil from however the oil disappears out of the oil window right after the engine is started. Most of the oil is probably stuffed in the gearbox and primary cover. I haven´t found a feeding hole that would supply fresh oil from the pump in the housing. Maybe the factory just forgot to make one, or they figured with the light loads it works anyway.

I don´t know about the IB but it´s probably different oil situation, probably the oil flowing through the spindles from one compartment into the other.

Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Taurim on February 21, 2021, 06:23:58 pm
There is a hole for oil feeding in the axis and probably an internal conduit going to the oil pump :

(https://i79.servimg.com/u/f79/20/06/54/75/2021-020.jpg) (https://servimg.com/view/20065475/1524)

I noticed an interesting detail on a picture of the Cam on H site : https://accessories.hitchcocksmotorcycles.com/32705?ref_page=535%20Continental%20GT

(https://accessories.hitchcocksmotorcycles.com/90350_2.jpg)

There are oil pockets in the bore of the cams but not on mine  :o

Edit : It may be a generic picture, the base circle of the cams is similar to stock here.
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Taurim on February 21, 2021, 06:34:15 pm
By the way before the first start, I kicked the engine with no spark plug and no rocker covers until oil bled from the rocker blocks to be sure there is oil everywhere. It required at least 10 kicks or more !
That was not enough  :'(
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Taurim on February 21, 2021, 06:38:00 pm
Neither machine has had any trouble that I know of, and as can be seen in my test ride videos, I gave them a bit of stick within a few miles after the tuning work and fitment of the cams. The Redditch Bullets all had phosphor Bronze bushes in their cams and worked fine, too. Other than those two GT's and the one I have waiting for the next batch of cams to arrive, I haven't done much else with the UCE engines.

Thank you for your message. I'm sure he sold quite a number of cam kits with no negative returns so maybe there is something wrong in my assembly...
Or I did not tightened the spindle locking nut enough... Difficult to say !

I sent a mail to H to have their advice.
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Taurim on February 21, 2021, 08:59:29 pm
Most probably the cause of my problem is here :

(https://i79.servimg.com/u/f79/20/06/54/75/doc10.jpg) (https://servimg.com/view/20065475/1525)

I did not use grease for installation, naively thinking it was pressure lubricated. But after having searched for drawings of the engine lubrication system, there does not seem to be anything like that for the cams !
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Adrian II on February 21, 2021, 09:16:31 pm
There's also a PTFE-based oil additive called Slick 50, it might help with the camshaft bushes

A.
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: jez on February 21, 2021, 09:27:36 pm
Perhaps but it won't help with the clutch. Could be worse. A USA guy had his cams fitted by a Ducati specialist and  the crankshaft teeth subsequently got stripped off.....
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: ace.cafe on February 21, 2021, 11:03:08 pm
The cams might be drip oiled by the returns doen the oushrof tunnels. That's how the Iron Barrel engines do it.
Maybe some break-in oil might be a good idea until the cams get run-in. 1100-1400 ppm ZDDP content.
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Taurim on February 21, 2021, 11:31:36 pm
The surface of the cams yes but the bores ?  ???

If there is no oil flow through it I understand why the documentation tells to add moly grease mixed with engine oil...
I will mix the grease with the oil I'm using in the engine of my Lotus on track  ;D (Royal Purple XPR, high ZDDP useful with high lift, 8.5K RPM and flat tappets on cams)
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Arschloch on February 22, 2021, 10:56:19 am
Well Taurim, if you would spend a year doing an FMEA and did proper video monitoring and documentation of your work, and payed for highly qualified corporate personal to supervise your activities your issue with the cam's would have never happend.  ;)   - no cash left to buy the cam.  ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Taurim on February 22, 2021, 11:04:11 am
 ;D
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Adrian II on February 22, 2021, 11:11:46 am
Have you investigated to see whether the fixed cam spindles from an iron barrel Bullet might be adapted to fit the CGT crankcases? I have had a quick look at the CGT and IB items in Hitchcocks' parts books, they are both just pressed into the crankcase with a flat cut to align them, and if the CGT cam bushes still have the ⅝" bore that's not a problem. it all depends on the inner diameter where they fit the crankcases, the IB spindles are available in oversizes at the crankcase end.

1. CGT:

https://www.hitchcocksmotorcycles.com/partsbook-pages/4298#page-4298-position-31

La Bullet fonte

https://www.hitchcocksmotorcycles.com/partsbook-pages/2400#page-2400-position-12

A.
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Taurim on February 22, 2021, 11:26:02 am
Replacing the spindles would require a total disassembly of the engine to press them out of the crankcase and pressing the new ones into it. That's a huge task which will not even cure the problem of the stress caused by the high lift cams.
derottone's solution to replace the bushings by roller bearings is a little bit simpler  ;)

I will try first the easy solution of a good assembly "by the book" with new eccentrics and the required grease  ;)
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Adrian II on February 22, 2021, 11:44:36 am
You can get cam spindle extractors for the older models (including the Electra-X with similar adjustable spindles to the CGT) which avoid the need for a total engine strip-down, just heat-up the relevant area of the timing side crankcase and wind them out.

However, careful re-assembly of the existing parts as you suggest will probably be enough, with the needle roller conversion as the nuclear* option!

A.

* Sorry guys, nukular...
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Arschloch on February 24, 2021, 09:03:35 pm
Here is how the lubrication works on the cam shafts.

Oil in: Pic 1, Pic 2,

Oil out: Pic 3

The cranshaft bearing is using the same principle to pull oil through.

Pic 4
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Arschloch on February 24, 2021, 09:07:47 pm

(https://accessories.hitchcocksmotorcycles.com/90350_2.jpg)

There are oil pockets in the bore of the cams but not on mine  :o

Edit : It may be a generic picture, the base circle of the cams is similar to stock here.

Hard to tell, but it could be intentional desin on the part of H's with the hopes to make more oil flow through the bushings instead of - hole in -> hole out.

There is "NO" oil feeding from the pump.
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Taurim on February 24, 2021, 09:59:59 pm
I just tried to insert a thin metal wire  through the end of both spindles. It is closed, there is no oil passage here.

(https://forum.classicmotorworks.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=29864.0;attach=55132;image)

But the spindles are hollow. It is possible to insert a wire through the hole in the middle of the spindle here :

(https://i79.servimg.com/u/f79/20/06/54/75/2021-020.jpg)

then turn to the inside) so it probably goes to the inside of the crankcase like shown on your second picture :

(https://forum.classicmotorworks.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=29864.0;attach=55134;image)

If as you said there is no oil feed from the pump, the oil flow through the holes inside the crankcase is probably extremely low  ???

I had some mail exchange with Allan H. Here is what he said :

"1, the spindle to cam bush clearance is too tight. In theory this should be correct but it is possible that the 2 parts are at the opposite ends of their tolerances. These cam bushes should not require “oil pockets” like the original cams, they should have plenty of oil without these. Maybe the cam bushes should have a small hone to ensure the clearance is enough. "

"We would expect the clearance between the bush and sleeve, we would expect a minimum clearance of 0.05mm."


I took some measurements and found only 0.04mm clearance for both cams : sleeves 15.85mm, cams bushes 15.89 both (but my micrometers only have +/- 0.01 precision)
I took the adjustable hand reamer to clean the inside of the exhaust cam bushing (it was necessary !) and increased the diameter a wee bit.
Clearance is now 0.06mm. I will also change both eccentric sleeves and take new measurements with it. (did not received it yet)

"As long as the camshaft was lubricated with oil before assembly, I would not of thought this would be the cause of the issue. "

I DID NOT oiled the cam bushings when assembling it so that was my mistake and probably the root cause  :'(
This time I will follow what Haynes manual says : use moly grease mixed with oil 50/50 to install sleeves and cams.

"When I have seen issues in the past, even with the standard cams, it almost always comes down to insufficient backlash being set between the gears, with the exhaust being the harder of the two to set as it’s a balance between the crankshaft spline and the inlet cam gear."
3, the spindle nut was not correctly tightened and has worked loose allowing the cam spindle to turn affecting the backlash.

I will also double check that this time, maybe adding a bit more play between the gears and maybe use blue Loctite for the locking nuts...

Then I will poor some good oil in it (Motul 300v 15W50) and fingers crossed  ;D




Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Arschloch on February 24, 2021, 10:17:06 pm
I just tried to insert a thin metal wire  through the end of both spindles. It is closed, there is no oil passage here.

(https://forum.classicmotorworks.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=29864.0;attach=55132;image)

But the spindles are hollow. It is possible to insert a wire through the hole in the middle of the spindle here :


Good to know, it´s not a through hole. Good luck with moly grease and setting.  :)
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: ace.cafe on February 24, 2021, 11:23:40 pm
There is some oil pooling in the bottom of the timing chest there, so apperently some oil is a least drip feeding down from the tappets. Maybe a lot gets slung off, but I'll bet some of it runs into the spindle bushing area.
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Taurim on February 24, 2021, 11:45:21 pm
That is what I saw when I tried to inject oil with a syringe here or there to see where it goes. When injecting in the hole which feeds tappets and rocker blocks, a lot of oil go down around the tappets and drips on the cams.

For me It is mechanically shocking to see this lubrication method where you hope some oil droplets will sometime fell where it is needed  ;D

Of course "it works" (c)  :)

And that it probably the reason why it is mandatory to install the cams loaded with oil or else the oil film will be too long to form and you will burn the bushes very quickly  ::) like I did :-[
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: ace.cafe on February 25, 2021, 05:46:39 am
With the iron barrel Bullet engines, almost everything in the oiling system is splash or drip fed, including the main bearings. The pumps feed the crank big end, and the rocker shafts, and that's all..
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Arschloch on February 25, 2021, 08:44:52 am
With the iron barrel Bullet engines, almost everything in the oiling system is splash or drip fed, including the main bearings. The pumps feed the crank big end, and the rocker shafts, and that's all..

I´m surprised though on the IB there was no issues with those cams when modded. Probably the UCE lubrication is better and some oil splashed in the flywheelhousing will pour down the wall and find it´s way into the spindle.

This was the result of my 3rd trial with bushings, they lastet around 1000km. Clearly to see they wore out massively just below the lobe before the gear lost a tooth and that´s when I noticed something was wrong. No moly grease on installation though, just oil.  :)
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Taurim on February 25, 2021, 08:56:59 am
There is an auto decompressor on this cam ?

This is not an H performance cam ?
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Arschloch on February 25, 2021, 09:03:36 am
There is an auto decompressor on this cam ?

This is not an H performance cam ?

It's a reground stock cam. The autodecomp was removed.
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Taurim on February 25, 2021, 09:14:00 am
What was the material used for the bushings ?

I hope it is a better material for H cams...
Or maybe the profile of the cam was more agressive and/or the valve springs stronger or rocker ratio higher ? It was used with ACE head ?
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Arschloch on February 25, 2021, 09:22:57 am
What was the material used for the bushings ?

I hope it is a better material for H cams...
Or maybe the profile of the cam was more agressive and/or the valve springs stronger or rocker ratio higher ? It was used with ACE head ?

It was the best bronze I could finde... Yes, it run with the ACE head. I think it was 936 grade bronze.

What I know for fact is that when the bushings where pressed in lightly they would come loose on the OD and spinn there instead of on the ID. That worked quite well and
I run it in such a condition for about 3000km. So should you encounter still issues, before going all rollers, you could try to make bronze spindles, hone the bore in the camshafts and
let the steel cam run on the bronze spindle, that should work too.
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Taurim on February 25, 2021, 09:59:44 am
The bronze Spindle are a good idea !

I hope that with 16% less rocker ratio (and probably different springs and cam profiles) it will work.
I still think that H made enough tests and have enough experience to provide a working Cam kit.
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: ace.cafe on February 25, 2021, 03:12:41 pm
I´m surprised though on the IB there was no issues with those cams when modded. Probably the UCE lubrication is better and some oil splashed in the flywheelhousing will pour down the wall and find it´s way into the spindle.

This was the result of my 3rd trial with bushings, they lastet around 1000km. Clearly to see they wore out massively just below the lobe before the gear lost a tooth and that´s when I noticed something was wrong. No moly grease on installation though, just oil.  :)

The iron barrel engine runs with the cams partially submerged in oil in the timing chest. That makes a bit of frothing from windage, but it seems to be okay. Never had any problems with worn cam bushings in them.
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Taurim on March 05, 2021, 07:43:58 pm
I finally received the parts from England this week and reassembled the engine today in paranoid mode !

I installed the cams with plenty of oil in the bearings and set the cam backlash with a little bit of play so that each cam can move in and out freely.
At the moment I started it 3 times, letting the oil warm up to 40°C the revving it up a little to 2K RPM then letting it cool down.

Idle is perfect but the engine is probably a bit more noisy. Maybe I'm too Paranoid  ???

I should be able to ride it tomorrow but I will be extra careful !
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Arschloch on March 06, 2021, 11:23:24 am

Idle is perfect but the engine is probably a bit more noisy. Maybe I'm too Paranoid  ???

I should be able to ride it tomorrow but I will be extra careful !

Don't worry about the clicking noise. Once the durability issue is solved you can attack the noise. The teeth on the cam shafts don't care much if they're is a little tick.
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Taurim on March 06, 2021, 01:49:28 pm
After a first 25 Km run, not exceeding 4.5K RPM, no strange noise everything is working as expected  :)

Some idle screw adjustment, Autotune map check + adjust and I go for a second ride  :D
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Taurim on March 06, 2021, 05:30:22 pm
100 Km done during the second ride. Everything seems to be running smoothly except after the ride I saw that the Autotune did not do anything  :o
In fact the Wideband sensor is already dead, probably clogged by a too rich mixture.

Replaced the sensor and AFR reading is working again so I will have to ride the bike again tomorrow  ;D
I see that the values are very rich so I'm back with the map I was using previously with the stock cams offset, with minuses  in the injection table compared to stock in the mid load/mid RPM.
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Taurim on March 07, 2021, 07:00:25 pm
I did more mapping work today with two 25 Km test rides and a longer 150 Km ride. The weather was sunny but really cold !

For whatever reason the Autotune always want to go leaner for small throttle openings and revs below 4K RPM. But I must not follow Autotune's suggestions or else the bike ride is shaky and really too lean. Maybe I should totally disable Autotune in that area.

The cams totally modified the engine behavior. It runs stronger in the higher revs, over 4.5 K RPM and worse below 4K RPM.

The map with the performance cams. I used used the aluminum air horn without the 25mm extension. I will have to try it with the extension.

(https://i79.servimg.com/u/f79/20/06/54/75/map_aa10.jpg) (https://servimg.com/view/20065475/1550)

The map I had with stock cams with intake offset by 1 tooth. It is just in the middle between stock and performance cams.

(https://i79.servimg.com/u/f79/20/06/54/75/20210212.jpg) (https://servimg.com/view/20065475/1552)


With the cams it's a new engine which needs to bed revved. Should I say sluggish around 3K RPM ?
The accelerations in 4th gear up to 130 kph are great but not that great in 5th, showing that the torque is probably not huge. But the power it there as the speed is gently climbing up to  and after 150 kph on the tach but slowly.
I rode the bike on small roads and did not found enough space to go faster than that.

Maybe I will have to use a dyno to fine tune the map...

A shot taken by the security cam  :)

(https://i79.servimg.com/u/f79/20/06/54/75/2021-021.jpg) (https://servimg.com/view/20065475/1551)
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Arschloch on March 07, 2021, 07:46:15 pm

A shot taken by the security cam  :)

(https://i79.servimg.com/u/f79/20/06/54/75/2021-021.jpg) (https://servimg.com/view/20065475/1551)


Hmmm... unless you own the cam how would you gain access to the shot???  ;D


The map is indicating a large improvement around 6000 revs?
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Taurim on March 07, 2021, 07:53:49 pm
Yes it is my home made security cam (based on a Raspberry Pi) on the house  ;D

And yes there is a huge improvement around 6 K RPM. Previously the engine was losing all steam at 5.5K.
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: ace.cafe on March 07, 2021, 10:58:26 pm
It is common for performance cams to sacrifice the low and mid rpms for better high rpms. Especially Hitchcocks cams have always been that way, even back to the iron barrel ones.
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Bullet Whisperer on March 08, 2021, 07:48:21 am
It is common for performance cams to sacrifice the low and mid rpms for better high rpms. Especially Hitchcocks cams have always been that way, even back to the iron barrel ones.
There is an old saying I swear by - 'You can't have the penny and the bun'  ;)
 B.W.
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Taurim on March 08, 2021, 08:02:40 am
In France we say "On ne peut pas avoir le beurre et l'argent du beurre. (et le cul de la crémière)"

Roughly translated to : "You can't have butter and money from butter. (and the ass of the milkmaid)"  ;D
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: jez on March 08, 2021, 12:13:03 pm
Now I've never tried a standard 535 but according
 to Hitchcocks' dyno charts there isn't any loss at anything much over 2000. I'd hazard a guess that your loss is due to fueling. My bike with the full kit and a carb fuels beautifully and pulls hard from just under three. Below that it's soft but happy to plonk along , but I rarely do that as it's not kind to the engine. The cam is not in any way cammy and quite frankly it seems a pretty mild road cam that the engine should have come with in the first place. The standard cam having been stolen from a tractor & perhaps perfect for Indian conditions but pretty poor in Europe and useless in anything with sporty pretentions. You could say the problems with the standard set up was a further incentive to set up a R&D facility in England.
  By the way Paul Henshaw put it all together and skimmed the barrel for a previous owner
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Taurim on March 08, 2021, 01:00:27 pm
The barrel is skimmed on my 535 too, among some other modifications  ;)
It the intake cam offset on your 535 ?

Dan @ H. sent me the PCV map for the 535 with cams today. It seems I was wrong for the ignition table ! I'm often off by 4 points.

So I will start from fresh with this map next time and see what the Autotune have to say about it. I will have to limit it to some % only so it does not creates too much difference and also set a global richer target AFR. H's map is "rich" !
At least I was not too far away on the 100% throttle column  :)

H map :
(https://i79.servimg.com/u/f79/20/06/54/75/hitch_10.jpg) (https://servimg.com/view/20065475/1553)
(warning : Euro 4 535 only)

My map :
(https://i79.servimg.com/u/f79/20/06/54/75/map_aa10.jpg)
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Bullet Whisperer on March 08, 2021, 02:02:02 pm
Now I've never tried a standard 535 but according
 to Hitchcocks' dyno charts there isn't any loss at anything much over 2000. I'd hazard a guess that your loss is due to fueling. My bike with the full kit and a carb fuels beautifully and pulls hard from just under three. Below that it's soft but happy to plonk along , but I rarely do that as it's not kind to the engine. The cam is not in any way cammy and quite frankly it seems a pretty mild road cam that the engine should have come with in the first place. The standard cam having been stolen from a tractor & perhaps perfect for Indian conditions but pretty poor in Europe and useless in anything with sporty pretentions. You could say the problems with the standard set up was a further incentive to set up a R&D facility in England.
  By the way Paul Henshaw put it all together and skimmed the barrel for a previous owner
Hi Jez, do you have the green bike or the yellow one?
 B.W.
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: ace.cafe on March 08, 2021, 02:10:46 pm
There is an old saying I swear by - 'You can't have the penny and the bun'  ;)
 B.W.
Perhaps, but there are ways to mitigate it at least somewhat.

My feeling is that a good boost from a higher compression ratio piston will really help to keep up the torque in those lower revs before the cams start taking over with their better cylinder filling.
Also, I think it is helpful to not try to add too much duration on the exhaust valve closing end. Closing the exhaust late has a noticeable loss effect in the lower rpm power from reversion during the low exhaust speeds seen at lower rpms. I prefer typically at least 5 degrees shorter timing on the exhaust close for that reason. I recognize that the overlap reduction can have effects at high rpms, but we don't see real high rpm effects from that on the street. I think the trade-off works for street use.

Of course, we all have our opinions about how to manage the engine's behavior, but those are my thoughts on it.
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Arschloch on March 08, 2021, 03:53:15 pm
The barrel is skimmed on my 535 too, among some other modifications  ;)
It the intake cam offset on your 535 ?

Dan @ H. sent me the PCV map for the 535 with cams today. It seems I was wrong for the ignition table ! I'm often off by 4 points.

So I will start from fresh with this map next time and see what the Autotune have to say about it. I will have to limit it to some % only so it does not creates too much difference and also set a global richer target AFR. H's map is "rich" !
At least I was not too far away on the 100% throttle column  :)

H map :
(https://i79.servimg.com/u/f79/20/06/54/75/hitch_10.jpg) (https://servimg.com/view/20065475/1553)
(warning : Euro 4 535 only)

My map :
(https://i79.servimg.com/u/f79/20/06/54/75/map_aa10.jpg)

...H´s map looks actually bit riduculous, sorry for the drastic expression. A map that´s been done on the dyno is unlikely to have the same figures all over the place.  It looks like they took care of the 80%and 100% throttle columns only and did little guess work on the rest.
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Dantheman on March 08, 2021, 06:18:43 pm
...H´s map looks actually bit riduculous, sorry for the drastic expression. A map that´s been done on the dyno is unlikely to have the same figures all over the place.  It looks like they took care of the 80%and 100% throttle columns only and did little guess work on the rest.

Whilst it may seem that way, it is intended and hopefully I can give a brief explanation as to why this is. 

Euro 3 version bikes use an 02 sensor eliminator when fitting a PCV, it then allows complete control over the whole fuelling table and the oxygen sensor can be removed completely from the bike as no feedback is given. This is a typical setup for a lot of fuel injected bikes. It seems the 500 EFI RE bikes in the USA remained with this setup, and it is only the occasional bike that we see on the new spec over there.

Euro 4 version bikes, introduced in 2017 run very differently. Simply fitting an 02 sensor eliminator in place of the oxygen sensor will not give the same results, instead, if the ECU reads a constant reading from this sensor, it will try and provoke a reaction by fluctuating the fuelling and upset the running, this is easy to monitor when running on the dyno with an AFR meter. This prevents creating a map where you would typically see an individual change for each cell, as the map base map the PCV was working from would constantly be changing. Instead, the PCV's come with an optimiser to plug inline of the oxygen sensor and bikes wiring loom. This uses the signal from the bikes oxygen sensor, and works to its own target AFR figure for this area, but it is limited in how much adjustment it can make within the bikes original parameters of the ECU, hence the need for the "block" pattern increments that you can see within the majority of the range. The block changes help to move the the fuelling back to a better base point for the optimiser to then fine tune through the feedback from the oxygen sensor (the oxygen sensor has influence on a far bigger rpm and throttle range than a lot of bikes, and this is why you see this block pattern covering such a large range of the table). 

As quite rightly mentioned, its often easy to spot a map which has been "guessed" where the numbers seem to follow on from another and are often rounded, but it is not always the case and does depend on the fuel injection system to begin with.

Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Taurim on March 08, 2021, 06:28:07 pm
This means I should re-install the stock O2 sensor ?
The O2 optimiser is of course installed on my Euro 4 535 but I replaced the O2 sensor with the usual plug with a resistor on the input of the optimiser box.

I also have the Dynojet Autotune installed with a Wideband O2 sensor.
Should I disable it for anything except 80 and 100% throttle opening ?

Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: jez on March 08, 2021, 07:24:43 pm
The green one Paul that I'm supposed to be bringing over to you this spring. Am I glad I don't have to deal with injectors.......
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Arschloch on March 08, 2021, 07:39:27 pm
Whilst it may seem that way, it is intended and hopefully I can give a brief explanation as to why this is. 

Euro 3 version bikes use an 02 sensor eliminator when fitting a PCV, it then allows complete control over the whole fuelling table and the oxygen sensor can be removed completely from the bike as no feedback is given. This is a typical setup for a lot of fuel injected bikes. It seems the 500 EFI RE bikes in the USA remained with this setup, and it is only the occasional bike that we see on the new spec over there.

Euro 4 version bikes, introduced in 2017 run very differently. Simply fitting an 02 sensor eliminator in place of the oxygen sensor will not give the same results, instead, if the ECU reads a constant reading from this sensor, it will try and provoke a reaction by fluctuating the fuelling and upset the running, this is easy to monitor when running on the dyno with an AFR meter. This prevents creating a map where you would typically see an individual change for each cell, as the map base map the PCV was working from would constantly be changing. Instead, the PCV's come with an optimiser to plug inline of the oxygen sensor and bikes wiring loom. This uses the signal from the bikes oxygen sensor, and works to its own target AFR figure for this area, but it is limited in how much adjustment it can make within the bikes original parameters of the ECU, hence the need for the "block" pattern increments that you can see within the majority of the range. The block changes help to move the the fuelling back to a better base point for the optimiser to then fine tune through the feedback from the oxygen sensor (the oxygen sensor has influence on a far bigger rpm and throttle range than a lot of bikes, and this is why you see this block pattern covering such a large range of the table). 

As quite rightly mentioned, its often easy to spot a map which has been "guessed" where the numbers seem to follow on from another and are often rounded, but it is not always the case and does depend on the fuel injection system to begin with.

That makes sense, thanks.
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Bullet Whisperer on March 08, 2021, 08:24:15 pm
The green one Paul that I'm supposed to be bringing over to you this spring. Am I glad I don't have to deal with injectors.......
Asbo 24 then. We could knock the inlet cam back a tooth on that one, if you would like a bit more 'Go' from the midrange upwards  ;)
 B.W.
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Bullet Whisperer on March 08, 2021, 08:30:38 pm
Perhaps, but there are ways to mitigate it at least somewhat.

My feeling is that a good boost from a higher compression ratio piston will really help to keep up the torque in those lower revs before the cams start taking over with their better cylinder filling.
Also, I think it is helpful to not try to add too much duration on the exhaust valve closing end. Closing the exhaust late has a noticeable loss effect in the lower rpm power from reversion during the low exhaust speeds seen at lower rpms. I prefer typically at least 5 degrees shorter timing on the exhaust close for that reason. I recognize that the overlap reduction can have effects at high rpms, but we don't see real high rpm effects from that on the street. I think the trade-off works for street use.

Of course, we all have our opinions about how to manage the engine's behavior, but those are my thoughts on it.
I largely agree, Ace and hence my desire for rather high compression ratios to go with the late inlet timings I like to use. I also agree with regards to not having the exhaust valve open for too long, but mainly to help keep it and the piston as far away from each other as reasonably possible!
 B.W.
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: ace.cafe on March 08, 2021, 08:40:49 pm
I largely agree, Ace and hence my desire for rather high compression ratios to go with the late inlet timings I like to use. I also agree with regards to not having the exhaust valve open for too long, but mainly to help keep it and the piston as far away from each other as reasonably possible!
 B.W.
We agree. :)
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: ace.cafe on March 10, 2021, 12:16:37 pm
When I designed the Ace billet head for the 535GT, I took 8cc out of the combustion chamber volume so the compression could be increased over the 500 by the added displacement, the squish mod, and the smaller chamber. That way, the customer didn't have to buy a new piston to get a good compression boost.
However, the flat top AVL piston could provide even more, and still have a nice flat surface for a fast burn, if desired, but it needed about 2mm deep relief cut in the crown for the higher inlet valve lift we have from the bigger rocker ratio.
I realized that the head was expensive, so I tried to get some cost saving by not needing to buy a high compression piston, and also avoided a dome on the crown.
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Taurim on March 13, 2021, 07:50:18 pm
Today I applied Dan advice : I reinstalled stock Lambda sensor, H Euro 4 map with AFR target set to 0 from 0 to 60% throttle to disable Autotune in the closed loop area.

It's much better than before, it was the good recipe  :D Thanks Dan !

In the open loop area it working correctly but the bike is probably too long legged with 18x36T final drive.

In 4th the engine revs happily to 5.5K RPM and beyond (130 to 140 kph GPS). But in 5th the speed climbs very slowly.

I think I will have to reinstall the 38T rear sprocket to enjoy the new engine torque curve !
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Arschloch on March 14, 2021, 01:52:31 pm
Today I applied Dan advice : I reinstalled stock Lambda sensor, H Euro 4 map with AFR target set to 0 from 0 to 60% throttle to disable Autotune in the closed loop area.

It's much better than before, it was the good recipe  :D Thanks Dan !

In the open loop area it working correctly but the bike is probably too long legged with 18x36T final drive.

In 4th the engine revs happily to 5.5K RPM and beyond (130 to 140 kph GPS). But in 5th the speed climbs very slowly.

I think I will have to reinstall the 38T rear sprocket to enjoy the new engine torque curve !

I had simillar thoughts regarding the final ratio to allow the bike to come faster into speed, however decided not to do it because it would rise the revs unnesecerily too much in cruse speeds around 100-120 kmh.
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Taurim on March 14, 2021, 02:56:47 pm
With the low speed limit here on everything but highways, 80 kph, 18x38 will be fine  ;D

I replaced the rear sprocket today. Of course the chain is 1 link too short and the half link I have does not fit with the connecting link with spring  ::)

Time to order a new chain with a more correct rivet link !
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Arschloch on March 14, 2021, 03:26:24 pm
With the low speed limit here on everything but highways, 80 kph, 18x38 will be fine  ;D

I replaced the rear sprocket today. Of course the chain is 1 link too short and the half link I have does not fit with the connecting link with spring  ::)

Time to order a new chain with a more correct rivet link !

80 kph, the bike is too fast for your place.  ;D
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Taurim on March 14, 2021, 11:32:08 pm
That's one of the reason I use the RE more than the Ducati these days  ::)
Is it better to ride a fast bike slow or a slow bike fast ?  :)

There is a solution : ride only on small roads with not enough "clients" for the police speed guns  ;D
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: gizzo on March 15, 2021, 01:11:59 am
It's the same over here. Our hills roads ( the good winding ones) are mostly 80kph speed limits. My GT is quick enough most of the time and I think it's better to have adequate mid range grunt for powering out of tight curves than top end power for max speed.

I also don't ride my Ducati very often. The Enfield's the right bike for that kind of riding. Plus the roads are deteriorating faster than they are repaired, I'd be better off on my supermoto than anything.....
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Taurim on March 20, 2021, 08:00:08 pm
I rode the bike 200 Km today  8)

18x38 final ratio is exactly what was needed ! The bike is great on the little roads now  :D

It pulls great on all gears including 5th ! 140 kpg (GPS) is really easy to catch. 150 kph requires a longer straight but I did not tested it on the highway to find what is the top speed.

I also reinstalled the 20 mm on the velocity stack

Autotune adjustments are smaller now. I'm close to the final map. I will limit it to +/- 10% next time.

(https://i79.servimg.com/u/f79/20/06/54/75/20210310.jpg) (https://servimg.com/view/20065475/1585)


The map with the trims integrated. It is easy to see the engine waking up from 4.5K RPM (and not that great before).

(https://i79.servimg.com/u/f79/20/06/54/75/20210311.jpg) (https://servimg.com/view/20065475/1586)


The only remaining problem is sometimes when opening the throttle quickly from 0 to 100% after coasting there is a short cut... Ignition problem ? Injection problem ? I don't know  :o

But almost all the time the bike is running really great now, love it like that  :)


In the middle of the fields this afternoon for a short pause  ;)

(https://i79.servimg.com/u/f79/20/06/54/75/2021-022.jpg) (https://i79.servimg.com/u/f79/20/06/54/75/2021-022.jpg)
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Richard230 on March 20, 2021, 09:11:59 pm
My stock 2011 B5 also misses when first opening up the throttle after having it closed on overrun.  It could be a Royal Enfield fuel injection or ignition "feature".   ::)
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Taurim on March 21, 2021, 12:01:03 am
It feels more like a temporary lack of fuel pressure. Weak fuel pump ? I don't know  ???
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Adrian II on March 21, 2021, 10:35:35 am
Fuel tank vent (whatever set-up the CGT has) not allowing enough air in?

A.
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Taurim on March 21, 2021, 11:28:26 am
I don’t think this is the problem. I removed the canister and the vent tube is not pinched.
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Taurim on March 22, 2021, 09:23:09 pm
500 Km since reassembly (the correct one !). Time to check what is happening inside.

The spark plug with 1 step colder than stock (NGK BPR7EIX) show the right color and no deposit. The ring is black so mixture is a bit rich. That was expected.

(https://i.servimg.com/u/f79/20/06/54/75/2021-024.jpg) (https://servimg.com/view/20065475/1598)


No hole in the piston : good  ;D
Some carbon deposit in the spark plug area. I will have to keep an eye on this.

(https://i.servimg.com/u/f79/20/06/54/75/2021-023.jpg) (https://servimg.com/view/20065475/1597)

What remains to be done :
- Finding a quiet highway to check if I can display the magic number on the GPS (or at least on the clock !).
- A dyno session to put numbers on the good feelings :) Maybe I will be able to check different velocity stack configurations.

I will have to wait for the second point as the shop with a dyno no too far away is in a confined area  :-\
But I am not so I can ride and the weather is improving  ;D
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Arschloch on March 26, 2021, 06:42:50 pm
It feels more like a temporary lack of fuel pressure. Weak fuel pump ? I don't know  ???

I am suspecting the Rev-Extend feature in the PC-V of it, causing on rare ocations a cut-out. Maybe because it get´s some inconsisten signal from the ECU, it happens on fast acceleration in low gears like the 1st or 2nd.
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Taurim on March 26, 2021, 08:01:52 pm
It's a plausible theory. I have to keep an eye on this but It is possible that the cut-out only occur when upshifting from a high RPM in the Rev-Extend zone.
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Arschloch on March 28, 2021, 12:02:19 pm
It's a plausible theory. I have to keep an eye on this but It is possible that the cut-out only occur when upshifting from a high RPM in the Rev-Extend zone.

I haven't bothered figuring what's causing it yet because it happened rarely enough and it doesn't bug me as much. Maybe you can find the issue.
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Taurim on March 28, 2021, 01:18:28 pm
Ton up  ;D

 (https://i79.servimg.com/u/f79/20/06/54/75/speed10.png) (https://servimg.com/view/20065475/1603)

164 kph / 102.5 on the GPS at 6.2 K RPM  :)
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Arschloch on March 28, 2021, 01:52:02 pm
Congratulations.  :D
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: ace.cafe on March 28, 2021, 01:58:36 pm
Ton up  ;D

 (https://i79.servimg.com/u/f79/20/06/54/75/speed10.png) (https://servimg.com/view/20065475/1603)

164 kph / 102.5 on the GPS at 6.2 K RPM  :)

Good show!

That's all that is needed for a street machine. It is on par(orclose) with many other vintage Brit twins, and even some of the Japanese aircooled stuff of the day such as the well-regarded Honda CB550F/Sport 4-cylinder.

The Royal Enfield isn't the slowest bike on the road anymore. It's a real full-fledged cafe bike now.
:)
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Guaire on March 28, 2021, 02:21:31 pm
WOW!
  Is that 7,000 RPM?
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: chuychacon on March 28, 2021, 02:59:16 pm
 :)
wow!  :) :) :)
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: KarlReinhard on March 28, 2021, 04:38:56 pm
Excellent Job ! Congratulations !                ( I guess it's the new Seat that  makes the Difference 😁)
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: KC1961 on March 28, 2021, 05:03:45 pm
Ton up  164 kph / 102.5 on the GPS at 6.2 K RPM  :)
The longer I looked at that picture, the more I smiled. Fantastic.
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Taurim on March 28, 2021, 05:42:56 pm
Thank you for your messages  ;)

@Karl : obviously  ;)

@guaire : No, only 6200 RPM but it's still high.

@ace.cafe : The performance now matches the  look  :)

The useful part of the run in video : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8k2PjlxD66w  ;)

(sound quality is not very good due to the wind, sorry about that)
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Bullet Whisperer on March 28, 2021, 06:28:55 pm
Nice result  8) 8) 8) 8)
 B.W.
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Taurim on March 28, 2021, 06:49:00 pm
Thank you B.W  ;)

And a great thank you all for all the replies to my questions, the engine discussions and the general content of this forum  :)
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: gizzo on March 29, 2021, 01:00:30 am
Sweet! Nice one.
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Taurim on March 29, 2021, 10:38:06 am
(https://i.servimg.com/u/f79/20/06/54/75/2021-026.jpg)

 ;)
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: ace.cafe on March 29, 2021, 01:11:26 pm
(https://i.servimg.com/u/f79/20/06/54/75/2021-026.jpg)

 ;)

That ACE sticker on there looks mighty sweet!
 ;)
Thanks for putting that on it.
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Taurim on March 29, 2021, 01:19:14 pm
 ;)
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Guaire on March 29, 2021, 01:52:48 pm
;)

Thank you, Taurim!
  Today, another Air Kit 3 including an ACE sticker, will be leaving for Australia!
 Cheers!
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Arschloch on March 29, 2021, 05:57:15 pm
That ACE sticker on there looks mighty sweet!
 ;)
Thanks for putting that on it.

Too sweet, looks mucj better on a black background.  ;)
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Arschloch on March 29, 2021, 06:02:10 pm
Excellent Job ! Congratulations !                (   I guess it's the new Seat that  makes the Difference 😁)

That must be it.  8)
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Taurim on April 01, 2021, 06:00:42 pm
Some data for discussion after my speed run last week  :)

As usual, values are the injection time difference in % compared to stock map for WOT at each RPM.

(https://i79.servimg.com/u/f79/20/06/54/75/diff10.png) (https://servimg.com/view/20065475/1617)

I installed Hitchcocks cams "on the dots", no intake cam retarded.

So my setup is really slower from 2500 to 4250 RPM  ??? And it is really faster from 5000 to 6250  :)

Do you think this is in line with the job done on my engine, intake and exhaust or is something wrong in my setup ?  :o
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: ace.cafe on April 01, 2021, 06:14:21 pm
It is expected when installing performance cams.
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Taurim on April 01, 2021, 06:23:34 pm
It's the same cams in Hitchcocks column and Autotune Column  ;)

The main differences on my engine are :
- head porting (larger intake and exhaust port at 34 mm)
- increased compression ratio from 8.5 to 9.3 + correct distance for squish
- ACE airbox
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: ace.cafe on April 01, 2021, 08:59:47 pm
It's the same cams in Hitchcocks column and Autotune Column  ;)

The main differences on my engine are :
- head porting (larger intake and exhaust port at 34 mm)
- increased compression ratio from 8.5 to 9.3 + correct distance for squish
- ACE airbox
I was just responding to your comment about the bike being slower at lower rpms and faster at higher rpms.
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: gizzo on April 01, 2021, 09:12:25 pm


So my setup is really slower from 2500 to 4250 RPM  ??? And it is really faster from 5000 to 6250  :)


That's no fun. Faster up high is cool but midrange is nice too. Some in between cams maybe?
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: ace.cafe on April 01, 2021, 09:36:26 pm
That's no fun. Faster up high is cool but midrange is nice too. Some in between cams maybe?
The real answer for that is more compression.
The performance cams close the intake later, so the swept volume after intake close is shorter, so less compression is built. The remedy is higher compression ratio piston.

We tried to recommend the best we could get with the stock piston by doing the squish mod. A flat top would help, or even a few cc's lump.

That's why we used 8cc smaller chamber volume on the Ace head.

All these symptoms have their treatments. They usually cost money.
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: gizzo on April 01, 2021, 10:46:03 pm
The real answer for that is more compression.


All these symptoms have their treatments. They usually cost money.

Yeah. Sigh...
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Taurim on April 01, 2021, 11:54:21 pm
gizzo if you wan a middle solution, retarding the inlet stock cam gives excellent results and it will only cost you some oil and gaskets  ;)

You can also do the head porting job (not even sure it will add something with the stock cams  ???)  and shorten the barrel to increase compression ratio and have the correct distance between piston at TDC and the head to have some squish effect.

Plus the excellent Ace airbox if you don't already have it  ;)

With this my 535 was close to 160 kph on the clock (154 GPS)... with the wind in the correct direction  ;D And it kept a good mid range torque.

Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: gizzo on April 02, 2021, 12:26:42 am
gizzo if you wan a middle solution, retarding the inlet stock cam gives excellent results and it will only cost you some oil and gaskets  ;)

You can also do the head porting job (not even sure it will add something with the stock cams  ???)  and shorten the barrel to increase compression ratio and have the correct distance between piston at TDC and the head to have some squish effect.

Plus the excellent Ace airbox if you don't already have it  ;)

With this my 535 was close to 160 kph on the clock (154 GPS)... with the wind in the correct direction  ;D And it kept a good mid range torque.
Already done all those things  ;). Each little mod made an incremental improvement. It's actually pretty quick off the mark now and will destroy a stock GT. At the track, I can keep pace with race tuned SR500's, other than on the long back straight where they creep away.
My top speed is about identical to yours, with a tailwind.
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Arschloch on April 02, 2021, 08:08:20 am
The real answer for that is more compression.
The performance cams close the intake later, so the swept volume after intake close is shorter, so less compression is built. The remedy is higher compression ratio piston.

We tried to recommend the best we could get with the stock piston by doing the squish mod. A flat top would help, or even a few cc's lump.

That's why we used 8cc smaller chamber volume on the Ace head.

All these symptoms have their treatments. They usually cost money.

I´ve tried a flat top piston with the ACE head and would recommend it for street use only with hessitations because it did affect the idle rather negativelly. I would need to let it idle above 1500rpm to have an stable idle and it would be very temperature sensitive, meaning the idle would rise by 500rpm or so with hot engine. The benefit was marginally better torque in midrange and about 0.2-0.5hp more power output. With the dished stock piston however the engine idles rock stable under all conditions.

It probably will behave differently when the flat top piston is used togeather with the modded stock head.

Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: ace.cafe on April 02, 2021, 02:26:27 pm
I´ve tried a flat top piston with the ACE head and would recommend it for street use only with hessitations because it did affect the idle rather negativelly. I would need to let it idle above 1500rpm to have an stable idle and it would be very temperature sensitive, meaning the idle would rise by 500rpm or so with hot engine. The benefit was marginally better torque in midrange and about 0.2-0.5hp more power output. With the dished stock piston however the engine idles rock stable under all conditions.

It probably will behave differently when the flat top piston is used togeather with the modded stock head.
You might try retarding the ignition a couple of degrees. It might help that.
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Taurim on April 05, 2021, 01:29:31 pm
Now that everything is working correctly I have to experiment different intake tract lengths.

In my previous installation I was concerned about the velocity stack being in the way of the air filter intake which may (or may not...) create turbulence.
So this time I tried a shorter configuration : 43mm less than before. The velocity stack length in the airbox is now 40mm.

(https://i.servimg.com/u/f79/20/06/54/75/2021-027.jpg) (https://servimg.com/view/20065475/1629)

Weather outside is cold, windy and rainy so I will test that later :-\

I'm curious to see if the autotune will create a very different injection map and if it feels different when riding !
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Guaire on April 05, 2021, 01:48:20 pm
Now that everything is working correctly I have to experiment different intake tract lengths.

In my previous installation I was concerned about the velocity stack being in the way of the air filter intake which may (or may not...) create turbulence.
So this time I tried a shorter configuration : 43mm less than before. The velocity stack length in the airbox is now 40mm.

(https://i.servimg.com/u/f79/20/06/54/75/2021-027.jpg) (https://servimg.com/view/20065475/1629)

Weather outside is cold, windy and rainy so I will test that later :-\

I'm curious to see if the autotune will create a very different injection map and if it feels different when riding !

Very interesting. We'll wait to hear what Mr. AutoTune says!
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Taurim on April 09, 2021, 05:46:43 pm
Today I tried the shorter air horn.

I started with this map as a baseline. It was correct for the long aluminum horn :

(https://i79.servimg.com/u/f79/20/06/54/75/baseli10.jpg) (https://servimg.com/view/20065475/1634)

Here is the variation found by Mr Autotune after a 70 Km ride :

(https://i79.servimg.com/u/f79/20/06/54/75/short_10.jpg) (https://servimg.com/view/20065475/1635)

More losses than gains... BUT the engine feel sluggish everywhere ! If there is an improvement around 3250/3500 RPM I did not felt it.

I reinstalled the long steel horn you sent me Guaire and reverted to the injection map optimized for the long aluminum horn (length is the same).

Variations after a 20 Km ride are very limited :

(https://i79.servimg.com/u/f79/20/06/54/75/long_s10.jpg) (https://servimg.com/view/20065475/1636)

There is no doubt about the fact that the engine works a lot better from 4500 RPM with the long horn. Especially since I tried both in the same hour.
I'm not able to tell if there is any difference between the long steel horn and the long aluminium horn.

Now I should try an even longer air horn but the space is very limited at the back of the airbox.
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: dexterkane on April 10, 2021, 10:41:20 am
Hi guys,

I'm new in this forum and I did not find a dedicated subject to post a first presentation message. So I will start here with a presentation of my "slightly modified" 535 GT  :)
I own it since  May 2020. This is not my only bike (I also own a Monster 1100s) but fell in love with the look of this retro new bike.
I bought it specifically to modify it to my taste and also as a past time during confinement days here in France  ::) And I had a lot of time to do that so there is a huge number of modifications  :D
The base is a 2017 Euro 4 model.

Some pictures will be more useful than a long boring text. You will probably guess what I am doing  ;)

This is the July version of my 535 :


(https://i.servimg.com/u/f79/20/06/54/75/img_2816.jpg) (https://i.servimg.com/u/f79/20/06/54/75/img_2816.jpg)

(https://i.servimg.com/u/f79/20/06/54/75/img_2817.jpg) (https://i.servimg.com/u/f79/20/06/54/75/img_2817.jpg)

(https://i.servimg.com/u/f79/20/06/54/75/img_2815.jpg) (https://i.servimg.com/u/f79/20/06/54/75/img_2815.jpg)

(https://i.servimg.com/u/f79/20/06/54/75/img_2813.jpg) (https://i.servimg.com/u/f79/20/06/54/75/img_2813.jpg)

(https://i.servimg.com/u/f79/20/06/54/75/img_2814.jpg) (https://i.servimg.com/u/f79/20/06/54/75/img_2814.jpg)

And what I removed from the bike at that time ;D

(https://i79.servimg.com/u/f79/20/06/54/75/img_2820.jpg) (https://servimg.com/view/20065475/1255)

This summer I did a few thousands kilometers. It was great fun but I'm still searching for an engine with more character.

With the new confinement this winter it's time to work on that  :)

Some before / after pictures :

Intake :

(https://i.servimg.com/u/f79/20/06/54/75/admiss12.jpg) (https://servimg.com/view/20065475/1161)
(https://i.servimg.com/u/f79/20/06/54/75/admiss11.jpg) (https://servimg.com/view/20065475/1160)

Exhaust :

(https://i.servimg.com/u/f79/20/06/54/75/echapp11.jpg) (https://servimg.com/view/20065475/1162)
(https://i.servimg.com/u/f79/20/06/54/75/echapp12.jpg) (https://servimg.com/view/20065475/1163)

Combustion chamber :

(https://i.servimg.com/u/f79/20/06/54/75/chambr11.jpg) (https://i.servimg.com/u/f79/20/06/54/75/chambr11.jpg)
(https://i.servimg.com/u/f79/20/06/54/75/chambr10.jpg) (https://i.servimg.com/u/f79/20/06/54/75/chambr10.jpg)
(https://i.servimg.com/u/f79/20/06/54/75/chambr13.jpg)

1.15 mm less height on the cylinder to have 1 mm squish band and a better CR :

(https://i.servimg.com/u/f79/20/06/54/75/2020-114.jpg)

As I don't have yet H's performance cam, did Mr Henshaw's trick to the intake camshaft :

(https://i.servimg.com/u/f79/20/06/54/75/dzocal10.jpg)

And the mandatory Carberry plate :

(https://i.servimg.com/u/f79/20/06/54/75/carber10.jpg)

Reassembly with a modified exhaust tube built from H's Inox exhaust pipe :

(https://i.servimg.com/u/f79/20/06/54/75/ligne-11.jpg)

And the interesting detail welded on the tube behind the brake pedal  ;)

(https://i.servimg.com/u/f79/20/06/54/75/wideba10.jpg)

I used a cheap endoscope to check and adjust intake tract alignment :

(https://i.servimg.com/u/f79/20/06/54/75/tract210.jpg)

It's alive and (not !) clicking  :) Work remain to be done on the ECU.

(https://i.servimg.com/u/f79/20/06/54/75/poumpo10.jpg)

That's a lot of wires to install under the seat !

(https://i.servimg.com/u/f79/20/06/54/75/dynoje10.jpg)

Done ! I added a switch to the right handle bar to command some feature on the PC5 (at the moment : Autotune On/Off)

(https://i.servimg.com/u/f79/20/06/54/75/cablag10.jpg)

Compression ratio looks good  :)
(not sure if the reading is correct, CR looks suspiciously high given what I have done to the cylinder. I thought it would be 9.3 bars and it is a little more than 10.5 bars...)

(https://i.servimg.com/u/f79/20/06/54/75/taux_c10.jpg)

Time to ride the thing to check everything is OK (it was 4 days ago)... Yes it's good to ride again ! And the GT is pulling better than before  :)

(https://i.servimg.com/u/f79/20/06/54/75/remont10.jpg)

After the short run, check the spark plug which shows a nice color (not too visible on this picture).

(https://i.servimg.com/u/f79/20/06/54/75/bougie10.jpg)

PC5 is starting to generate the Trims from the Autotune/Wideband sensor. It's a really clever thing  :)
I started with some conservative target AFR (13.6 to 13.2).

(https://i.servimg.com/u/f79/20/06/54/75/1er_ru10.jpg)

What remains to be done :
- I just received my ACE.derottone airbox kit (Yes I was reading this forum long before today  ;)). The idea is really great :) But I will probably install a different velocity stack as the one I received is different from 2016 model.
- I think I have found a Performance cam kit in a French RE forum  :D
- riding the bike to set up a good PC5 map.

That was a long first post  ;)

Hey Taurim, quick question for you if that's OK? Did removing the handle bar counterweights increase vibrations? And where did you get those mirrors from? Thanks!
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Guaire on April 10, 2021, 02:17:41 pm
Hi Taurim - ACE tells us the velocity stack helps intake at wide open throttle.
  I'll be installing an AutoTune on mine. Is that your AutoTune mounted at the end of the header pipe near the union with the muffler? Dynojet support document shows the AT sensor within a few inches of the exhaust port. I haven't mounted mine yet.
BG

"If your exhaust has an o2 bung (18mm x 1.5), go ahead and screw the included Wideband Oxygen Sensor into this location. If you have to drill a hole for a new bung (mild steel bung included), we recommend doing so before the catalytic converter (if applicable)."
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Taurim on April 10, 2021, 03:15:43 pm
Hi Taurim - ACE tells us the velocity stack helps intake at wide open throttle.
  I'll be installing an AutoTune on mine. Is that your AutoTune mounted at the end of the header pipe near the union with the muffler? Dynojet support document shows the AT sensor within a few inches of the exhaust port. I haven't mounted mine yet.
BG

"If your exhaust has an o2 bung (18mm x 1.5), go ahead and screw the included Wideband Oxygen Sensor into this location. If you have to drill a hole for a new bung (mild steel bung included), we recommend doing so before the catalytic converter (if applicable)."

A wideband sensor is more fragile than a stock O2 sensor. Especially the one used with the Dynojet Autotune module which is a first generation Bosch LSU 4.2.

MOTEC installation instructions about this sensor for a car : https://www.motec.com.au/filedownload.php/?docid=3524
All the instructions are not easy to follow for a bike !

- Place the sensor at least 1 meter from the exhaust ports to avoid excessive heat (recommended).
- Place the sensor at least 1 meter from the open end of the exhaust system to avoid incorrect readings due to outside oxygen (recommended).
- Place the sensor away from the flame front coming out of the cylinder head and away from areas where one cylinder may have more effect than another.
- If possible, do not place the sensor near exhaust slip joints; some designs allow air to enter resulting in incorrect readings.

...

Sensor Lifetime

Sensor lifetimes are highly dependent on application for example the type of fuel used and the volume of gas flow over the sensor.
Some factors that reduce sensor lifetime are:

...

- Incorrect placement in the exhaust that can overheat the sensor

You can also find some informations here : https://www.wbo2.com/lsu/LsuInstal.pdf


That's the reason why I installed it where it is : no too close from the head.
I'm not using an open end muffler but a muffler with a dB Killer.
The sensor is installed before the joint between the header and the muffler.

The M18x1.5 inox bung is welded with the correct angle (10° min away from horizontal, 15° min away from vertical) and not too much protrusion of the sensor in the tube (aprox 12mm).

You can see it behind the front of the brake pedal.

(https://i79.servimg.com/u/f79/20/06/54/75/ligne-13.jpg) (https://servimg.com/view/20065475/1637)

A welder custom modified my H's inox header to include a bend to have the muffler in the correct position and weld the bung in this portion.

(https://i79.servimg.com/u/f79/20/06/54/75/tube-v11.jpg) (https://servimg.com/view/20065475/1638)
(bung not welded yet)
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Taurim on April 10, 2021, 03:36:07 pm
Hey Taurim, quick question for you if that's OK? Did removing the handle bar counterweights increase vibrations? And where did you get those mirrors from? Thanks!

The installation is OK, the mirrors are probably as heavy as stock counterweights.

The mirrors are Halcyon 835 : https://classicpartsltd.com/835-streetfighter-bar-end-mirror.html
Small mirrors (7.5cm diameter) with a convex mirror providing a good enough rear view.

You also have the 830 with a slightly bigger 10 cm mirror : https://classicpartsltd.com/830-halcyon-bar-end-mirror.html
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: dexterkane on April 10, 2021, 07:20:55 pm
Thank you, think I may have to get some of these for mine!

Prefer them to the RE ones.

Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Arschloch on April 10, 2021, 07:30:52 pm
The Halcyon stuff is good. I have one of those goggles, first worn by Biggles time proven piece. Nothing can beat it when it comes to riding experience. I know I´ll get stoned now by the FF helmet proponents.  ::)

https://classicpartsltd.com/halcyon-mark-9-vintage-flying-goggles-brown.html
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: dexterkane on April 10, 2021, 08:02:47 pm
The Halcyon stuff is good. I have one of those goggles, first worn by Biggles time proven piece. Nothing can beat it when it comes to riding experience. I know I´ll get stoned now by the FF helmet proponents.  ::)

https://classicpartsltd.com/halcyon-mark-9-vintage-flying-goggles-brown.html

Looks great quality!
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: gizzo on April 10, 2021, 10:44:49 pm
The Halcyon stuff is good. I have one of those goggles, first worn by Biggles time proven piece. Nothing can beat it when it comes to riding experience. I know I´ll get stoned now by the FF helmet proponents.  ::)


Only if you pipe up on the 650 int/GT forum 😉. Don't tell anyone, I get around in halcyon goggles and a black Shorty....
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Arschloch on April 11, 2021, 09:13:47 am
Only if you pipe up on the 650 int/GT forum 😉. Don't tell anyone, I get around in halcyon goggles and a black Shorty....

I can't help but it feels like having stuffed your head in a car when riding with the FF helmet around the hills on a RE.
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Arschloch on April 11, 2021, 05:45:40 pm
Today I tried the shorter air horn.

I started with this map as a baseline. It was correct for the long aluminum horn :

(https://i79.servimg.com/u/f79/20/06/54/75/baseli10.jpg) (https://servimg.com/view/20065475/1634)

Here is the variation found by Mr Autotune after a 70 Km ride :

(https://i79.servimg.com/u/f79/20/06/54/75/short_10.jpg) (https://servimg.com/view/20065475/1635)

More losses than gains... BUT the engine feel sluggish everywhere ! If there is an improvement around 3250/3500 RPM I did not felt it.

I reinstalled the long steel horn you sent me Guaire and reverted to the injection map optimized for the long aluminum horn (length is the same).

Variations after a 20 Km ride are very limited :

(https://i79.servimg.com/u/f79/20/06/54/75/long_s10.jpg) (https://servimg.com/view/20065475/1636)

There is no doubt about the fact that the engine works a lot better from 4500 RPM with the long horn. Especially since I tried both in the same hour.
I'm not able to tell if there is any difference between the long steel horn and the long aluminium horn.

Now I should try an even longer air horn but the space is very limited at the back of the airbox.

I've extended mine again and there's something to it. I should have trusted my own theory. One horse for sure.
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Taurim on April 11, 2021, 06:54:46 pm
I've ordered a 1m long 45mm diameter aluminum tube to experiment a little more ;D
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: ace.cafe on April 11, 2021, 07:19:46 pm
It is best practice to end the pipe at least the distance of one pipe diameter from the end wall of the airbox.

I think length adjustments of about 3mm at a time is good for fine tuning.
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Taurim on April 11, 2021, 08:24:28 pm
I will have to measure that but I'm afraid there is not a lot of room left.
But I will try to make it as long as possible with this constraint !

(https://i79.servimg.com/u/f79/20/06/54/75/airbox13.jpg) (https://servimg.com/view/20065475/1641)
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Arschloch on April 11, 2021, 08:39:30 pm
I will have to measure that but I'm afraid there is not a lot of room left.
But I will try to make it as long as possible with this constraint !

(https://i79.servimg.com/u/f79/20/06/54/75/airbox13.jpg) (https://servimg.com/view/20065475/1641)

That´s about the length I´ve got now in mine.....feels good. ;)  ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Arschloch on April 13, 2021, 11:29:34 am
I've ordered a 1m long 45mm diameter aluminum tube to experiment a little more ;D

You could cut 0.5m and send me half, I´m out of stacks and i did have to weld a piece on my stack to extend it and it´s not very smooth inside.
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Taurim on April 13, 2021, 11:59:18 am
It would cost more in transport than in tube ? But if you really need it tell me.
I did not received it yet though.

I use aluminum adhesive tape to join the tubes. It is strong enough for the job.
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Arschloch on April 16, 2021, 08:17:29 pm
It would cost more in transport than in tube ? But if you really need it tell me.
I did not received it yet though.

I use aluminum adhesive tape to join the tubes. It is strong enough for the job.

Ya, I've found a tube, hopefully i find the tools to make the bellmouth.
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Taurim on April 16, 2021, 08:33:23 pm
I have not received it yet  :-\

What kind of tool did you use to make the bell mouth ?
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Arschloch on April 17, 2021, 07:45:19 am
I have not received it yet  :-\

What kind of tool did you use to make the bell mouth ?

The batch from which you recieved the last one was made in a press with a die. Since I need now only one or two, it´s going to be this method.

https://youtu.be/cgnB4bmodv4
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Taurim on April 17, 2021, 05:37:51 pm
It looks quite risky  ???
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Arschloch on April 17, 2021, 07:06:35 pm
It looks quite risky  ???

It doesn't look risky, it looks crap. I've never done it this way, it probably it won't work with the dimensions i want and I do something different.  ::)
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: ace.cafe on April 17, 2021, 08:02:37 pm
It doesn't look risky, it looks crap. I've never done it this way, it probably it won't work with the dimensions i want and I do something different.  ::)

3D print.
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Guaire on April 17, 2021, 11:24:41 pm
3D print.

Velocity stack, 40mm length and 3D print it?!
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Taurim on April 18, 2021, 12:27:57 am
You can even print an adjustable velocity stack  ;)

(https://i79.servimg.com/u/f79/20/06/54/75/13802410.png) (https://servimg.com/view/20065475/1678)
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: ace.cafe on April 18, 2021, 12:32:59 am
Velocity stack, 40mm length and 3D print it?!
Print the flare with a base that you can sleeve on to the pipe you want to use, and cut the pipe for various lengths to try with the same flare on the end.
Make one flare and use it on any pipe length you want to cut. Instead of making a whole new stack for every length you want to try.
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Arschloch on April 18, 2021, 05:59:51 am
Print the flare with a base that you can sleeve on to the pipe you want to use, and cut the pipe for various lengths to try with the same flare on the end.
Make one flare and use it on any pipe length you want to cut. Instead of making a whole new stack for every length you want to try.

...my thinking, exactly.  ;)
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Taurim on April 21, 2021, 07:25:44 pm
Today I received the 45mm tube so I assembled a new 15 mm longer velocity stack. 102mm protrusion from the front airbox wall = approximately 430mm intake tract.

I think this is the longest velocity stack possible as it is now close to the rear airbox wall.

(https://i79.servimg.com/u/f79/20/06/54/75/2021-030.jpg) (https://servimg.com/view/20065475/1700)

Weather forecast for this week-end looks really nice  8)
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Taurim on April 24, 2021, 06:51:44 pm
I tried the long horn today.

At first it seemed to work quite well with the engine starting to pull maybe 500 or 1000 RPM earlier than before... Then after a few more kilometers the bike did not pulled so well anymore  ???

At the end of the 80 Km ride I checked the autotune values and saw negative values everywhere   :o

I opened the airbox and found the horn at the bottom of it   ::)

Maybe I underestimated the vibrations effect on the aluminum adhesive foil, it was not a good idea.  :-\
I will have to try duct tape...

(https://i79.servimg.com/u/f79/20/06/54/75/ll4kcj10.jpg) (https://servimg.com/view/20065475/1731)


Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Arschloch on April 24, 2021, 07:01:51 pm
I tried the long horn today.

At first it seemed to work quite well with the engine starting to pull maybe 500 or 1000 RPM earlier than before... Then after a few more kilometers the bike did not pulled so well anymore  ???

At the end of the 80 Km ride I checked the autotune values and saw negative values everywhere   :o

I opened the airbox and found the horn at the bottom of it   ::)

Maybe I underestimated the vibrations effect on the aluminum adhesive foil, it was not a good idea.  :-\
I will have to try duct tape...

(https://i79.servimg.com/u/f79/20/06/54/75/ll4kcj10.jpg) (https://servimg.com/view/20065475/1731)

I would suggest tig welder.  :o :D

...or I have couple of those bellmouths on the way, I can send you one.
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Taurim on April 24, 2021, 07:11:39 pm
I would suggest tig welder.  :o :D

I know nobody able to tig weld  :'(


...or I have couple of those bellmouths on the way, I can send you one.

YES  :D You can PM me for the details  ;)


By the way, after having reinstalled the classic Guaire's horn I did a second 80 Km run. Engine performance was back ;D

The horn presence definitely makes a big difference !
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: ace.cafe on April 24, 2021, 09:01:44 pm
I know nobody able to tig weld  :'(


YES  :D You can PM me for the details  ;)


By the way, after having reinstalled the classic Guaire's horn I did a second 80 Km run. Engine performance was back ;D

The horn presence definitely makes a big difference !

Yes, it does make a big difference.

Only the Ace/Derottone kit permits the use of the horn, due to relocating the filter element.

Sort of makes me wonder what the factory and other modders were thinking? Nobody else realizes this?
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Taurim on April 25, 2021, 05:27:50 pm
I tried again the long air horn with duct tape today and it held up.

Longer is better ! It suits more my riding style on very small roads.
There is no huge dip around 3.5K RPM anymore and it starts to pull from 4K up to 6K RPM : perfect  :)

I was still able to reach the (GPS) ton during a short highway test... just !
Maybe I lost 5 kph in top speed but it'not that important.

What is important is that on small twitsy roads the GPS speed climbs up rapidly up to 135/140 kph... which is more than enough to have your driving license cancelled If you get caught. Perfect setup  ;D
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Guaire on April 25, 2021, 06:02:57 pm
Good news, Taurim!
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Taurim on May 13, 2021, 03:23:47 pm
Here we go again  ;D

(https://i79.servimg.com/u/f79/20/06/54/75/2021-032.jpg) (https://i79.servimg.com/u/f79/20/06/54/75/2021-032.jpg)

No modifications related to the engine this time  ;)
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: gizzo on May 14, 2021, 12:08:01 am
What this time? New triples or bodywork?
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Arschloch on May 14, 2021, 05:32:00 am
We may soon find out what Taurim is up to. The GT won't go fat without a tank, that's sure. ;D
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Taurim on May 14, 2021, 12:07:36 pm
Nothing too radical  ;)

Only new clip-ons and a slight redesign of the rear. I also need to check all the connexions due to a MIL light during my last ride even though it made no difference to engine performance  ???
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Taurim on May 15, 2021, 08:38:36 pm
First step : the rear end with the relocation of the indicators and the adaptation of a shorter mudguard.
It always takes hours to do that kind of mod because nothing never lines up properly the first time  ;D

(https://i79.servimg.com/u/f79/20/06/54/75/2021-033.jpg) (https://servimg.com/view/20065475/1790)

(https://i79.servimg.com/u/f79/20/06/54/75/2021-034.jpg) (https://servimg.com/view/20065475/1791)

Next step : the Tomaselli clip-ons. It will require some machining to shorten it properly and permit the installation of bar end mirrors.
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Arschloch on May 16, 2021, 08:36:41 am
Looking good!  8)
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Taurim on May 22, 2021, 05:41:22 pm
The (hopefully) final version with Tomaselli clip-ons and modified rear (shorter aluminum mudguard and relocated indicators)

(https://i.servimg.com/u/f79/20/06/54/75/2021-036.jpg) (https://servimg.com/view/20065475/1802)

(https://i.servimg.com/u/f79/20/06/54/75/2021-035.jpg) (https://servimg.com/view/20065475/1801)

(https://i.servimg.com/u/f79/20/06/54/75/2021-037.jpg) (https://servimg.com/view/20065475/1803)

Of course nothing was simple in the installation and it took way more time than I expected  ;D
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Arschloch on May 22, 2021, 07:53:09 pm
Looking really nice.  :D

I've got that bellmouth made and installed it, let's see how it holds up, but I think it should have no issues, need to ride it couple of more times to say for sure. I'm not responsible for the colour.  ::) ...only for the material spec that was available only in that colour.  ::)
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Taurim on May 22, 2021, 08:03:04 pm
Really nice !

How do you attach it to the tube ?
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Arschloch on May 22, 2021, 08:55:59 pm
Turn the 45mm to a fit, maybe 44.7mm or so and push it on.
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Taurim on May 23, 2021, 12:29:47 am
In the very high resolution picture, it looks like you used some kind of glue ?

(https://i.servimg.com/u/f79/20/06/54/75/scree143.png)
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Arschloch on May 23, 2021, 07:17:05 am
After your experimenting it was easy to find a length that's as good as it gets and I glued it on.
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Taurim on May 23, 2021, 07:48:50 am
(http://www.2thering.com/users/3312/56/35/30/smiles/651683.gif)
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Arschloch on May 24, 2021, 04:11:17 pm
The (hopefully) final version with Tomaselli clip-ons and modified rear (shorter aluminum mudguard and relocated indicators)

(https://i.servimg.com/u/f79/20/06/54/75/2021-036.jpg) (https://servimg.com/view/20065475/1802)

(https://i.servimg.com/u/f79/20/06/54/75/2021-035.jpg) (https://servimg.com/view/20065475/1801)

(https://i.servimg.com/u/f79/20/06/54/75/2021-037.jpg) (https://servimg.com/view/20065475/1803)

Of course nothing was simple in the installation and it took way more time than I expected  ;D

Quiet pretty bike, do you notice any benefits in the fork adjusters? Did you change something on the standard settings?
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: ace.cafe on May 24, 2021, 04:32:16 pm
It looks good!
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Taurim on May 24, 2021, 05:00:29 pm
Thank you  ;)

Quiet pretty bike, do you notice any benefits in the fork adjusters? Did you change something on the standard settings?

I installed the adjusters with the minimum preload setting at first. I don't remember what was the length in the fork tube compared to stock fork cap + spacer, sorry.

Maybe it had less preload as the front was a bit low and there was some wobble at high speed + fork bottoming sometimes on bumpy roads.
After turning the adjuster for 2 rings then 1 ring more it was fine. (1 ring = 3.5 mm).
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Taurim on December 15, 2021, 11:58:28 pm
I forgot to update this topic since May  :o

So it's time to copy here some updates written elsewhere :

New rubber !
Avon RoadRider MK II again. Did 5200 Km / 3250 Mi with the previous one.

(https://i79.servimg.com/u/f79/20/06/54/75/2021-121.jpg)

I also tried HM's DTC Reader for all Euro 4 Royal Enfield(and Euro 4 only).

https://accessories.hitchcocksmotorcycles.com/accessory-shop/General-Tools/46112

My 535 have 6 stored errors due to previous cabling errors when I installed the Dynojet PC V. I have no engine light anymore as I corrected everything 1 year ago but I wanted to remove the stored codes to know what happens if ever a new error is generated.

(https://i.servimg.com/u/f79/20/06/54/75/2021-118.jpg) (https://servimg.com/view/20065475/2217)

Detailed view of each error :

(https://i.servimg.com/u/f79/20/06/54/75/2021-117.jpg) (https://servimg.com/view/20065475/2215)

Far easier to read than counting short and long blinks of the engine light  ;D

No stored DTC anymore. That was the point  :)

(https://i.servimg.com/u/f79/20/06/54/75/2021-120.jpg) (https://servimg.com/view/20065475/2219)

You can also have a live reading of various data which is a nice feature :

(https://i.servimg.com/u/f79/20/06/54/75/2021-119.jpg) (https://servimg.com/view/20065475/2218)


Now it's time to perform the routine maintenance : oil, filters, inspections and cleaning...

I also replaced rear brake pads with better ones to improve the rear brake feel like I did for the front brakes.

And I will have to look at the rear brake pedal and support. I would like to make it 1 or 2 cm lower but not adjustment it possible so I will have to create it.

Brake pedal is too high to my taste but I can't make it too low to not touch the exhaust tube.

(https://i79.servimg.com/u/f79/20/06/54/75/ligne-13.jpg)
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Taurim on December 18, 2021, 08:04:46 pm
Brake pedal adjustment done !

I had to drill a hole in right foot peg support in the middle of the brake pedal stop, screw a M4 screw in and file the screw head to have just the required thickness to lower the brake pedal when not depressed.

(https://i.servimg.com/u/f79/20/06/54/75/brake310.jpg) (https://servimg.com/view/20065475/2295)
(on this picture the brake pedal is depressed)

Et voilà  :) The brake pedal is now lowered by 2cm.

(https://i.servimg.com/u/f79/20/06/54/75/brake210.jpg) (https://servimg.com/view/20065475/2294)

Less expensive than adjustable rearsets  ;D
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Taurim on February 05, 2022, 04:07:25 pm
Today the weather was nice and not too cold so I took the 535 for the first ride of the year.

After 30 Km of a quiet ride on the small roads, I heard and unpleasant metallic sound and I slowed down to stop on the border of the road. When engaging the 2nd gear about to stop the rear wheel was blocked  :o
No Neutral anymore, Neutral light always on and when trying to go using the 3rd there is a grinding noise : not good...
The engine is running correctly with no suspect noise, this is the only good news.
I stopped and I saw some engine oil leaks around the gearbox. Not good at all  :o

(https://i79.servimg.com/u/f79/20/06/54/75/c33y1t10.jpg)
The engine oil was new but now it is totally black !

The bike is back at the house now so I have to disassemble everything  ::)
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Arschloch on February 05, 2022, 04:35:39 pm
Oh, dear. If the gearbox is toast, than it´s going to be a large restoration. How nice a separate gearbox would be like on the IB now. There are plenty of silly washers in this one which can be forgotten on the assembly line.  :o
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: KC1961 on February 05, 2022, 04:53:22 pm
Hope the damage is as minimal as possible.
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Adrian II on February 05, 2022, 06:57:34 pm
Oops, I hope this is not going to prove expensive.  :o

Quote
How nice a separate gearbox would be like on the IB now.

I'm not sure if you were aware of this machine's existence, derottone, but "never a truer word was spoken in jest"... I know the builder, that's a 535 engine.

(https://i.postimg.cc/3R55JW8M/Hybrid-UCEtopend.png) (https://postimages.org/)

Now we just need to work out if this engine and gearbox could be squeezed into the CGT535 frame.

A.
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Taurim on February 05, 2022, 07:18:23 pm
Hope the damage is as minimal as possible.

I hope so  :'(

Disassembly started. Tomorrow I will drain the oil, remove the head and as much removable things as possible to make the engine a little less heavy before getting it out of the frame !

(https://i79.servimg.com/u/f79/20/06/54/75/2022-015.jpg)

Last stupidity of the day : I removed the tank but as it was nearly full I dropped it a little too fast on a non flat surface... and broke the plastic tube on the ultra expensive petrol pump  >:(

A day to forget !
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: gizzo on February 05, 2022, 10:16:34 pm
Oh no!  :( . a broken gearbox is exactly what you don't need. At least you can do the work yourself and don't have to wait for a RE dealer mechanic to get around to it one day. I hope you'll document the process for our education.

All the best
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: gizzo on February 05, 2022, 10:17:55 pm
Oops, I hope this is not going to prove expensive.  :o

I'm not sure if you were aware of this machine's existence, derottone, but "never a truer word was spoken in jest"... I know the builder, that's a 535 engine.

(https://i.postimg.cc/3R55JW8M/Hybrid-UCEtopend.png) (https://postimages.org/)

Now we just need to work out if this engine and gearbox could be squeezed into the CGT535 frame.

A.

That's funky. Do you have a link to more info on that?
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Taurim on February 05, 2022, 10:34:17 pm
Oh no!  :( . a broken gearbox is exactly what you don't need. At least you can do the work yourself and don't have to wait for a RE dealer mechanic to get around to it one day. I hope you'll document the process for our education.

All the best

I'm afraid this task is a bit beyond my mechanical skills and the tools I have at hand. So I will bring the engine block to a skilled mechanic and see with him what needs to be done. Maybe with some improvements including good quality bearings (maybe the bearings sold at H's shop ?) and even some work on the crankshaft if he is able to do it or if he knows somebody able to do it. My 535 is (was) vibrating a lot and I'm sure some truing and balancing of the crankshaft need to be done.
Too bad Mr Henshaw shop is so far away.
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: StreetKleaver on February 05, 2022, 10:43:46 pm
Unlucky mate!

As unfortunate as the damage is. Would be good to see what the issue was and if there are possible ways to upgrade from it.
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: gizzo on February 05, 2022, 10:56:19 pm
I'm afraid this task is a bit beyond my mechanical skills and the tools I have at hand. So I will bring the engine block to a skilled mechanic and see with him what needs to be done. Maybe with some improvements including good quality bearings (maybe the bearings sold at H's shop ?) and even some work on the crankshaft if he is able to do it or if he knows somebody able to do it. My 535 is (was) vibrating a lot and I'm sure some truing and balancing of the crankshaft need to be done.
Too bad Mr Henshaw shop is so far away.
Ah, too bad. Good luck with it anyway.
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Taurim on February 05, 2022, 11:01:57 pm
Thanks  ;)

Unlucky mate!

As unfortunate as the damage is. Would be good to see what the issue was and if there are possible ways to upgrade from it.

I will keep you informed of course. The probability is that a bearing died and spat his balls everywhere in the gearbox !
Maybe I will get some clue tomorrow when I will flush the oil out of the engine and remove the side covers...

To be continued !
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Arschloch on February 06, 2022, 08:29:48 am
I'm afraid this task is a bit beyond my mechanical skills and the tools I have at hand. So I will bring the engine block to a skilled mechanic and see with him what needs to be done. Maybe with some improvements including good quality bearings (maybe the bearings sold at H's shop ?) and even some work on the crankshaft if he is able to do it or if he knows somebody able to do it. My 535 is (was) vibrating a lot and I'm sure some truing and balancing of the crankshaft need to be done.
Too bad Mr Henshaw shop is so far away.

I think you can do it. The uce is like a scooter engine with a big piston in it. All tools you may need you probably have. I wouldn't bother upgrading the bearings in it, unlikely thry  caused the damage. Most likely something came off, if the housing is ok it shouldn't be a big issue other than some happy wrenchung.
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Taurim on February 06, 2022, 03:44:43 pm
I've made some progress in the disassembly starting with the right side :

(https://i79.servimg.com/u/f79/20/06/54/75/2022-018.jpg) (https://servimg.com/view/20065475/2406)

Not good all the metal bits  :( But it's not a surprise  ::)

(https://i79.servimg.com/u/f79/20/06/54/75/2022-016.jpg) (https://servimg.com/view/20065475/2404)

Culprit found ! I was expecting that. There is not a single ball remaining in the bearing. That explains the oil leak.

(https://i79.servimg.com/u/f79/20/06/54/75/2022-017.jpg) (https://servimg.com/view/20065475/2405)

I always took great attention to the chain tension since I bought this bike to not stress the bearing too much. Maybe it was not always the case in the life of this bike !

I have to continue the disassembly. Not sure I will get the engine out today.
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Arschloch on February 06, 2022, 03:56:20 pm
Interesting, somehow i can't imagine the chain tension even if it was bit too high for a brief period of time causing this. Let's see what you find inside.
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Taurim on February 06, 2022, 07:15:31 pm
Engine out with some help from the cat  ;D

It was not that difficult. With all the bits removed the engine probably does not weight more than 25 Kg.

(https://i79.servimg.com/u/f79/20/06/54/75/2022-022.jpg) (https://servimg.com/view/20065475/2412)

5 balls  :o

(https://i79.servimg.com/u/f79/20/06/54/75/2022-020.jpg) (https://servimg.com/view/20065475/2410)

Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Arschloch on February 06, 2022, 07:48:01 pm
Five balls is not an awful lot, certainly not enough to keep that thing togeather.  :(
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Taurim on February 13, 2022, 04:53:42 pm
As the head is disassembled at the moment, I spent some time to do something I forgot to do the previous time : unshrouding the intake valve :

(https://i79.servimg.com/u/f79/20/06/54/75/2022-024.jpg) (https://servimg.com/view/20065475/2426)

A better view of the unshrouded valve :

(https://i79.servimg.com/u/f79/20/06/54/75/2022-025.jpg) (https://servimg.com/view/20065475/2427)

Everything still fits inside the cylinder bore of course !

(https://i79.servimg.com/u/f79/20/06/54/75/2022-026.jpg) (https://servimg.com/view/20065475/2429)

This is the first of several optimisations I want to do  8)
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: gizzo on February 13, 2022, 09:43:17 pm
What other plans do you have for improving?
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Taurim on February 13, 2022, 10:09:11 pm
Throttle body, piston, big end and crankshaft balance  ;)
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: StreetKleaver on February 13, 2022, 10:11:11 pm
As the head is disassembled at the moment, I spent some time to do something I forgot to do the previous time : unshrouding the intake valve

She's tight spot alright. But everything should help! :)
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: gizzo on February 13, 2022, 10:17:56 pm
Throttle body, piston, big end and crankshaft balance  ;)

The H's flat top piston? Be good to see how it works out.
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Taurim on February 13, 2022, 10:20:29 pm
Yes, I hope it will be trouble free :o
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: gizzo on February 13, 2022, 11:31:01 pm
Yes, I hope it will be trouble free :o
I hope so too. Did you find an engine builder to do the bottom end?
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Taurim on February 13, 2022, 11:44:25 pm
I hope so too. Did you find an engine builder to do the bottom end?

Yes, I have found a shop doing that kind of crankshaft assembly and rebuild having already worked on RE cranks  :)
But it will take some weeks as his schedule is full at the moment (Spring is coming !)
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Arschloch on February 14, 2022, 06:02:29 am
Here is a JE flat top piston that sized previously in my engine. Forged piston need a large gap. Gladly measure the exact diameter for you once you have H's piston for comparison.
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Taurim on February 14, 2022, 08:46:58 am
Would you mind take some measeurements of your JE piston ?
Il will compare it with stock piston and H's one when I reveive it. Hopefully this week.

H's piston is said to be specialy engineered for the 535 so I think there is no clearance issue.
"A forged piston (complete with: gudgeon pin, circlips and rings), manufactured by Omega in the UK specifically for Hitchcocks. "
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Arschloch on February 14, 2022, 05:43:47 pm
Would you mind take some measeurements of your JE piston ?
Il will compare it with stock piston and H's one when I reveive it. Hopefully this week.

H's piston is said to be specialy engineered for the 535 so I think there is no clearance issue.
"A forged piston (complete with: gudgeon pin, circlips and rings), manufactured by Omega in the UK specifically for Hitchcocks. "

It's extremely cold to go to the shed now and find it. It was almost exact the same dia. as the stock casted. H's piston should be 0.05-0.1mm smaller than the stock, imho.
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Taurim on February 14, 2022, 11:27:51 pm
There is no hurry ! It only for our common knowledge of what is available ;)

I will post my numbers when I will get H's Omega piston.
I will also post weight of each ensemble (piston, gudgeon pin,...)
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Arschloch on February 16, 2022, 05:51:14 pm
There is no hurry ! It only for our common knowledge of what is available ;)

I will post my numbers when I will get H's Omega piston.
I will also post weight of each ensemble (piston, gudgeon pin,...)

Hard to get a custom made those days too. H's is probably the last available, maybe that's why they chose Omega as supplier.  ;)

The JE piston was good though, if only the OD wasn't wronly specified, maybe a typo. It was some grams lighter too, which helped little bit with the vibs. Idle was negatively impacted due to the changed geometry of the combustion chamber. That wouldn't have bothered me though, the torque improvement in the lower rev. range would have been worth it, top end not so much, about 0.5hp only, not worth mentioning.

Looks like we will be forced to get electric bikes due to lack of piston supplies.   ::)
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Taurim on February 16, 2022, 09:21:22 pm
I reveived the Omega piston.

Here is what the paper in the box says :
- The bore size required for 87.05mm to 87.06mm
- This will give you a piston to bore clearance of 0.10mm to 0.11mm
- To calculate the final cylinder bore size measure 90° to the gudgeon pin, 15mm from the base of the piston skirt and add the recommended bore clearance.

Both have the same size (measured with a digital vernier, probably not that accurate) :
Stock piston is 86.89mm
Omega piston is 86.90mm

The book says :
- piston : 86.940 to 86.970
Service limit 86.890 (few marks on my stock piston skirts so my measurement is probably a little off)

- cylinder bore : 87.045 to 87.074
Service limit 87.190

It should be OK.

By the way H's improved conrod is nice too  :)
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Arschloch on February 16, 2022, 10:04:49 pm
Maybe Omega uses different alloy than JE, the piston bore clearance was the same though.
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Adrian II on February 17, 2022, 01:14:29 am
Quote
By the way H's improved conrod is nice too  :)

With the Alpha Bearings crank pin and  rod ground out for a proper outer track for the needle roller bearing?

I noticed on eBay that there's a Jawa speedway engine con-rod which might be suitable, same 160mm between centers, 20mm bronze small-end bush, and it LOOKS like it might take the same size needle roller in the big end (you would have to check).

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/283456932646?hash=item41ff598b26:g:Fh0AAOSw5ixh~SQ4

A.
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Taurim on February 17, 2022, 09:16:19 am
I did not remove the protection wax around the big end yet to check the construction but H's page says :
"We have taken a standard new conrod and machined it to accept an English made bearing which runs in a hardened sleeve pressed into the conrod."
There is also a hardened sleeve in the small end.

(https://accessories.hitchcocksmotorcycles.com/90125C-1200.jpg)
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: gizzo on February 17, 2022, 09:24:13 am
Jog my memory: do I remember correctly that there's some reason it's hard to rebuild these cranks, like they're pinned or welded at the factory? something like that? Or will they press apart and together again like a regular crank?
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Taurim on February 17, 2022, 10:04:21 am
We should ask BulletWhisperer  ;)
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: gizzo on February 17, 2022, 10:59:13 am
I hope he'll chime in. I looked at his YouTube channel but I think all the crank vids he has are IB cranks.
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: TrianglePete on February 17, 2022, 11:01:47 am
Hey Guys,

      I do these cranks all the time.  Built a

fixture to assemble with zero run out.

Pete
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Adrian II on February 17, 2022, 11:29:13 am
ISTRC Bullet Whisperer HAS rebuilt a CGT 535 crankshaft before, where the outer track in the big-end eye had started to disintegrate, the crank pin is just a press fit into the flywheels, same as the other EFI and the AVL models.

I do like that assembly jig, Pete.

A.
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: TrianglePete on February 17, 2022, 12:14:45 pm
 Thanks

     For those who struggle with constant stalling

I changed to the heavier Bullet crank.  Hasn't

stalled in 2 years.  No change in performance..

Pete
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Taurim on February 17, 2022, 12:42:36 pm
Thanks for the info guys  ;)
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Arschloch on February 17, 2022, 05:26:43 pm
Hey Guys,

      I do these cranks all the time.  Built a

fixture to assemble with zero run out.

Pete

I did rebuild one crank the old fashioned way on a hydraulic press and trued it in the lathe. Admittedly it's not trued as close to zero as it can be using a fixture because it would flex back somewhat, nevertheless close enough. Very useful fixture especially if you rebuild more than one crank.
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Arschloch on February 17, 2022, 05:34:43 pm
With the Alpha Bearings crank pin and  rod ground out for a proper outer track for the needle roller bearing?

I noticed on eBay that there's a Jawa speedway engine con-rod which might be suitable, same 160mm between centers, 20mm bronze small-end bush, and it LOOKS like it might take the same size needle roller in the big end (you would have to check).

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/283456932646?hash=item41ff598b26:g:Fh0AAOSw5ixh~SQ4

A.

This is the Jawa conrod i want, there are different lengths of them available too. Haven't decided on the bearing yet, as they all appear to be about the same and im not too much into experimenting with different manufacturers at this time. I think carillo makes those rods for the jawa speedway engines though.

I also think the cage design might be more important than the rollers in those bearings, as they likely use all the same steel, if there is wear on this cages the bearing is toast quickly.
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Taurim on February 17, 2022, 06:24:52 pm
By the way I was able to weight both pistons with gudgeon pins, clips and ring.

Omega is only 10g lighter than stock : 417g compared to 427g
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: StreetKleaver on February 19, 2022, 12:28:54 am
ISTRC Bullet Whisperer HAS rebuilt a CGT 535 crankshaft before, where the outer track in the big-end eye had started to disintegrate, the crank pin is just a press fit into the flywheels, same as the other EFI and the AVL models.

I do like that assembly jig, Pete.

A.

That's interesting. I read somewhere on here the UCE/AVL cranks had a reasonable track record.

Although the Quality Control with RE is questionable at times.
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Taurim on February 19, 2022, 03:23:36 pm
I had to carve valve pockets in the new flat top piston today.

The "agressive" valves in the spare head :
(https://i.servimg.com/u/f79/20/06/54/75/2022-031.jpg) (https://servimg.com/view/20065475/2444)

Digging :
(https://i.servimg.com/u/f79/20/06/54/75/2022-030.jpg) (https://servimg.com/view/20065475/2443)

Done ! Comparison with my modified stock piston :
(https://i.servimg.com/u/f79/20/06/54/75/2022-029.jpg) (https://servimg.com/view/20065475/2442)

I took new weight measurements with carbon deposit cleaned on stock piston and valve pockets in the new one :
Stock : 426.3g
Omega : 417.5g

I tried to measure the dish volume in the stock piston. I found 5cc.
So it should push the theoretical compression ratio from 9.3 to 10.3. Probably less as I removed some metal from the head around intake valve.
I will have to measure compression once the engine is reassembled.
Previously it was (with stock valves) 10.7 bars / 155 psi. Probably less than that with H's cam but I forgot to measure it.

The conrod :
(https://i.servimg.com/u/f79/20/06/54/75/2022-032.jpg) (https://servimg.com/view/20065475/2445)

943g (with the protection wax)
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Adrian II on February 19, 2022, 03:29:30 pm
That's interesting. I read somewhere on here the UCE/AVL cranks had a reasonable track record.

Although the Quality Control with RE is questionable at times.

Seems to have been a mixed bag. Early 500 AVL engines of UK import Electra-Xs had a bad batch of crankpins which failed between the 7-17,000 mile marks, the hardened outer surface flaked off. It seems to happen a lot less often in later AVL and EFI engines, but it's still not unknown.

Don't forget the AVL/EFI rod and big-end was originally designed for the 350 AVL, the 500 engines put more stress on it.

A.
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Arschloch on February 19, 2022, 04:06:14 pm
Your methodology of grinding the valve pockets is impressive, I´ve just dremeled ~ by eyesight.  ;D ...why didn´t I think of it myself.
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Taurim on February 19, 2022, 04:59:25 pm
Your methodology of grinding the valve pockets is impressive, I´ve just dremeled ~ by eyesight.  ;D ...why didn´t I think of it myself.

As you can imagine I'm not the first to do that  ;)
A lot of people use modified valves as a tool to perform the job but I find that way too agressive.

(https://i79.servimg.com/u/f79/20/06/54/75/wp45a410.jpg) (https://servimg.com/view/20065475/2446)

Abrasive paper attached via double sided tape to an old valve is more than enough to slowly carve the recess without removing too much material too fast. You just have to check that you are grinding a slightly bigger recess than the valve diameter :
- attach a round of abrasive paper slightly bigger than the valve
- the cylinder with the bolts in place can turn a little so I did grind the pockets with the cylinder turned at both limits to accommodate with the assembly tolerances
- I installed the head with no head gasket but with both pins to locate it precisely. When the valve goes down with an angle it touches the piston closer to the outer wall so it gives some more room in that direction too.
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: StreetKleaver on February 20, 2022, 09:05:29 am
Nice work mate. I'll be having to do the same also. That's a neat trick!
Do you check clearance with plasticine/clay afterwards?
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Taurim on February 20, 2022, 09:12:39 am
I did during my previous build ;)
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Taurim on February 20, 2022, 06:15:36 pm
As the 535 is currently broken I had to use the backup bike this afternoon  ;D

(https://i79.servimg.com/u/f79/20/06/54/75/2022-033.jpg) (https://servimg.com/view/20065475/2448)
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Arschloch on February 20, 2022, 08:50:12 pm
Nice bike, but what's that monstrosity in the background.  :D

I wonder how many weeks they didn't supply toilet paper at the Ford company in order to finance it.  :o ;D
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Taurim on February 20, 2022, 08:55:28 pm
Of course it's not a real 1969 GT40 but a replica ;)

289 000 € in case you are interested. That's 10 times less than the real thing  ;D

https://www.loftretailcars.com/Autos/FORD/GT40/ym9ckan/
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Arschloch on February 20, 2022, 09:12:02 pm
Of course it's not a real 1969 GT40 but a replica ;)

289 000 € in case you are interested. That's 10 times less than the real thing  ;D

https://www.loftretailcars.com/Autos/FORD/GT40/ym9ckan/

Actually i wouldn't want it, cos I wouldn't trust a mechanic those days and i can't do everything myself.  ;)
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: gizzo on February 20, 2022, 09:14:46 pm
Actually i wouldn't want it, cos I wouldn't trust a mechanic those days and i can't do everything myself.  ;)
Austin 7 for you?  ;D ;D
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: AzCal Retred on February 20, 2022, 09:33:12 pm
Definitely a Trabant...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trabant_601
In hindsight, the Trabant 601 can be considered East Germany's answer to West Germany's "People's Car", the VW Beetle.[1][2] Its purpose was to provide a cheap but still reliable car that was very affordable and also easy to repair and maintain.
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Arschloch on February 20, 2022, 09:41:39 pm
Definitely a Trabant...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trabant_601
In hindsight, the Trabant 601 can be considered East Germany's answer to West Germany's "People's Car", the VW Beetle.[1][2] Its purpose was to provide a cheap but still reliable car that was very affordable and also easy to repair and maintain.

Looks like the trabant is comming.  ;D
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: AzCal Retred on February 20, 2022, 11:42:16 pm
Into your life it will creep...

These are sorta "East German Bullets", ripe for customization. You probably have good access to these...yes?
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: AzCal Retred on February 21, 2022, 12:00:29 am
" Looks like the trabant is comming. "   еще нет дедушка!

https://www.autoevolution.com/news/retro-2022-trabant-p50e-reimagines-original-sachsenring-icon-with-an-ev-heart-180161.html

Retro 2022 Trabant P50e Reimagines Original Sachsenring Icon With an EV Heart ; 27 Jan 2022, 10:51 UTC
Anyone who remembers Communist automobiles probably heard about the VEB Sachsenring Trabant series. It should not be too hard. Given the lengthy 1957 to 1991 production and many cardboard jokes.
Created by an East German car manufacturer and initially named Trabant P50, the series of small family cars evolved into the well-known two-door sedan, three-door station wagon (Universal), and doorless Jeep format. By way of four model iterations: 500, 600, 601, and Trabant 1.1. It is also a sad/funny popular Communist car culture memento.
One that morphed into countless “you have to see to believe” iterations, including Trabi limousines! Anyway, we are not here to discuss real-world shenanigans. Instead, the iconic little car made from duroplast (hence the cardboard jokes) has an alternate reality version. One is a real-world two-tone white-and-blue vintage Trabi P50 treat.
The other stems from the beautifully stylish imagination of Lars O. Saeltzer, the virtual artist behind the Larson Design moniker. Aka lars_o_saeltzer on social media, the pixel master is back with another timeless icon transformation into a hypothetical future legend of sustainability.
As such, just like many other cool digital projects (like a spectacular 2022 Ford Capri RSe), the VEB Sachsenring Trabant P50 morphed into a wishful thinking P50e Retro. If another Trabi resurrection attempt should arise, the company behind it would better take a long look at the CGI lines presented here.

Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: kelsoo on February 21, 2022, 07:42:27 pm
Trabant no 2 is a mini! Well started life as one at least  ;D
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Taurim on February 21, 2022, 08:33:59 pm
If you want some Trabant fun : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3WRQcJ0QnTU  ;D
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Arschloch on February 22, 2022, 08:05:23 pm
" Looks like the trabant is comming. "   еще нет дедушка!

https://www.autoevolution.com/news/retro-2022-trabant-p50e-reimagines-original-sachsenring-icon-with-an-ev-heart-180161.html

Retro 2022 Trabant P50e Reimagines Original Sachsenring Icon With an EV Heart ; 27 Jan 2022, 10:51 UTC
Anyone who remembers Communist automobiles probably heard about the VEB Sachsenring Trabant series. It should not be too hard. Given the lengthy 1957 to 1991 production and many cardboard jokes.
Created by an East German car manufacturer and initially named Trabant P50, the series of small family cars evolved into the well-known two-door sedan, three-door station wagon (Universal), and doorless Jeep format. By way of four model iterations: 500, 600, 601, and Trabant 1.1. It is also a sad/funny popular Communist car culture memento.
One that morphed into countless “you have to see to believe” iterations, including Trabi limousines! Anyway, we are not here to discuss real-world shenanigans. Instead, the iconic little car made from duroplast (hence the cardboard jokes) has an alternate reality version. One is a real-world two-tone white-and-blue vintage Trabi P50 treat.
The other stems from the beautifully stylish imagination of Lars O. Saeltzer, the virtual artist behind the Larson Design moniker. Aka lars_o_saeltzer on social media, the pixel master is back with another timeless icon transformation into a hypothetical future legend of sustainability.
As such, just like many other cool digital projects (like a spectacular 2022 Ford Capri RSe), the VEB Sachsenring Trabant P50 morphed into a wishful thinking P50e Retro. If another Trabi resurrection attempt should arise, the company behind it would better take a long look at the CGI lines presented here.


You would definitely need a little whore full of itself company occupied  by little swedtards to bring that masterpiece of engineering degeneration back to market. ;)
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: AzCal Retred on February 22, 2022, 08:22:40 pm
Looks like the Trabant originators are on the move Westward again, maybe they'll revive the marque. Are you eagerly anticipating the new management or have you got those Azul Airlines or Boliviana de Aviacion tickets in hand yet? Sao Paulo is always nice...
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: gizzo on February 22, 2022, 09:44:55 pm
As the 535 is currently broken I had to use the backup bike this afternoon  ;D

(https://i79.servimg.com/u/f79/20/06/54/75/2022-033.jpg) (https://servimg.com/view/20065475/2448)

That's a nice second choice for when the GT doesn't work  8)
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Taurim on February 22, 2022, 09:49:25 pm
Yup, it's red too  :)
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: gizzo on February 22, 2022, 11:18:27 pm
Black and yellow, mine...  ;D
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Taurim on February 22, 2022, 11:35:05 pm
The reds are faster ;D
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: gizzo on February 23, 2022, 12:33:45 am
The reds are faster ;D
That depends on who you're riding with  ;)
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Taurim on February 23, 2022, 01:04:26 am
I agree  8)
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Taurim on February 26, 2022, 04:32:33 pm
It will take some time to get back my crankshaft assembled with the new conrod and (hopefully) balanced correctly.
In the meantime I have some work to do on the parts I have at hand.

As I'm going to install a brand new piston and rings, I did a simple cylinder hone.

(https://i.servimg.com/u/f79/20/06/54/75/2022-036.jpg) (https://servimg.com/view/20065475/2469)

I took some measurements. Cylinder bore is 86.06mm. Piston requires at least 86.05 bore so it shoud be correct.

(https://i79.servimg.com/u/f79/20/06/54/75/2022-037.jpg) (https://servimg.com/view/20065475/2470)

I have now to check new rings gap.

And there is some more tuning work to perform on other parts  :)
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Taurim on February 27, 2022, 05:28:29 pm
Intake tract parts and head modification to increase the bore from 34 to 36mm  :)

As I had to increase the bore by 2mm I adjusted the intake manifold and the frame mount on the head so the manifold can be installed almost 2mm higher than stock.
This makes the intake tract in the head a little straighter.
Hard to see in this photo :

(https://i.servimg.com/u/f79/20/06/54/75/2022-039.jpg) (https://servimg.com/view/20065475/2473)

Then a lot of dremeling to get everything flush with a constant  area.

(https://i.servimg.com/u/f79/20/06/54/75/2022-038.jpg) (https://servimg.com/view/20065475/2472)

To be continued  ;)
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: StreetKleaver on February 28, 2022, 10:04:47 am
Looking better than ever! I'm sure every little bit helps.
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Taurim on February 28, 2022, 10:47:41 am
Sure ! And it's easier to search for the slightest optimisation possible when everything is on the table  :)

(https://i79.servimg.com/u/f79/20/06/54/75/2022-040.jpg)
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Softlysoftlycatcheemonkey on February 28, 2022, 01:51:05 pm
    Have you thought that the rocker covers might impede cooling of the rocker box a little bit by their large ( probably decorative/slightly aerodynamic ) overhang? I'm considering buying a pair, and cutting and polishing. A guesstimate would be about a third of their weight could be cut off if the loss of the internal bracing doesn't cause warpage under heat.
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Taurim on February 28, 2022, 06:50:13 pm
I don't think it will change anything to the cooling but it's a nice idea... and a lot of grinding and polishing work  ;)
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Arschloch on February 28, 2022, 09:46:04 pm
Sure ! And it's easier to search for the slightest optimisation possible when everything is on the table  :)

(https://i79.servimg.com/u/f79/20/06/54/75/2022-040.jpg)

Interesting to see the head and the length of the intake rolled out like this. You would probably always come out too short with just a carb and a stack without the airbox to allow for adequate induction.
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: StreetKleaver on February 28, 2022, 10:35:40 pm
Sure ! And it's easier to search for the slightest optimisation possible when everything is on the table  :)

Definitely on the edge of my seat to see the results.

I'm still a while away from cracking open my GT. My Bullet needs the head rebuilt. Installed new "R" cams which have slightly higher lift and the exhaust valve sounds like it's having a party in there, could even be sticking and slamming shut.

So it's getting HM Competition valves and some porting. By the time I get to my GT I'll be all practiced up. Haha
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Taurim on February 28, 2022, 11:28:49 pm
Bear in mind it will take quite some time to get my crankshaft balanced and the engine block reassembled.
Then I will have to break in the engine  ::)
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Taurim on March 07, 2022, 02:33:29 pm
The problem from the other side :

(https://i.servimg.com/u/f79/20/06/54/75/2022-043.jpg) (https://servimg.com/view/20065475/2490)

The clip which holds the bearing in place was found in parts at the bottom of the engine along with all the balls from the bearing...
The crankcase lip holding the clip is broken too so the crankcase will have to be replaced  ::)

(https://i.servimg.com/u/f79/20/06/54/75/2022-042.jpg) (https://servimg.com/view/20065475/2489)

Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Arschloch on March 07, 2022, 05:20:29 pm
 :o...the lip which holds the seger-ring in place looks very narrow on the picture, the tolerances may have played out its potential and added up in a chain.  ;D
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Taurim on March 07, 2022, 05:38:15 pm
Difficult to know what triggered the fault  :-\

As an added bonus it looks like you can only order a set containing both crank cases and bearings  ::)
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Adrian II on March 07, 2022, 06:57:12 pm
The joys of a unit construction engine.  :(

A.
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Arschloch on March 07, 2022, 07:57:30 pm
It may not be necessary as in times of cnc the machining can achieve tight enough tolerancing to bolt any case half to any other - in theory. How they put it into practice at RE who would know, i would replace both cases either way.
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Taurim on March 07, 2022, 08:17:41 pm
It may not be necessary as in times of cnc the machining can achieve tight enough tolerancing to bolt any case half to any other - in theory. How they put it into practice at RE who would know, i would replace both cases either way.

I will  :(
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: gizzo on March 07, 2022, 09:26:11 pm
:o...the lip which holds the seger-ring in place looks very narrow on the picture, the tolerances may have played out its potential and added up in a chain.  ;D
plus, RE are not famous for using high quality materials in their crankcsae manufacture. Cheesy metal+tiny clip recess= this?

Anyway, good luck with the rebuild, Taurim. Any plans to find SH cases at the wreckers, or just sucking up the cost and going new?
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Taurim on March 07, 2022, 09:57:08 pm
I won’t take any risk given the already high cost of improved bearings, con-rod and forged piston… so new parts !
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: gizzo on March 07, 2022, 10:09:14 pm
I won’t take any risk given the already high cost of improved bearings, con-rod and forged piston… so new parts !
Smart choice.
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Taurim on April 07, 2022, 03:32:54 pm
While waiting for the reassembled block with the new balanced crankshaft to come back (nearly there, the crankshaft came back from the specialist with the new conrod assembled and a number of holes near the crankpin in the crank webs), the 36mm throttle body is ready :

The "80°"  flap comes from a Weber 36 carburetor with thickness reduced from 1.5 to 1.2mm.

(https://i79.servimg.com/u/f79/20/06/54/75/2022-047.jpg) (https://servimg.com/view/20065475/2540)
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: gizzo on April 07, 2022, 10:53:05 pm
Clever.  8)
Did you bore the TB on a mill with boring head?
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Taurim on April 07, 2022, 11:19:58 pm
The machining shop used a honing head with the TB held with the hand to not break anything on it. It took quite some time but quality is very good.
Final diameter is 35.95mm
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: gizzo on April 08, 2022, 12:54:42 am
The machining shop used a honing head with the TB held with the hand to not break anything on it. It took quite some time but quality is very good.
Final diameter is 35.95mm
Wow, that sounds laborious!! But nice work and clever thinking.
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Adrian II on April 08, 2022, 12:55:11 pm
Definitely some lateral thinking going on. I'd love to see what you could do with an Electra-X.

A.
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Arschloch on April 09, 2022, 11:05:56 pm
Definitely some lateral thinking going on. I'd love to see what you could do with an Electra-X.

A.

The Electra-X may need some vertical thinking first though.  ;) :P
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Taurim on May 05, 2022, 08:30:29 pm
Engine block is not reassembled but it's nearly there.

Last woes : I had to change 4 gears in the gearbox.
2 with a worn bore (more than .4 mm of play !), one with a missing tooth !

(https://i79.servimg.com/u/f79/20/06/54/75/535gt_10.jpg)


Strange broken tooth shape  ???

(https://i79.servimg.com/u/f79/20/06/54/75/2022-079.jpg)

The last I had to change was the small gear facing the previous one which was not pretty...

Almost everything will be new in this engine  :o
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Taurim on June 19, 2022, 04:49:22 pm
At last  :)

(https://i79.servimg.com/u/f79/20/06/54/75/2022-095.jpg) (https://servimg.com/view/20065475/2729)

There is a lot of work remaining !
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: gizzo on June 20, 2022, 02:41:04 am
Awesome. All new gearbox?
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Taurim on June 20, 2022, 06:12:57 am
No. Only 2 gears replaced, the crankcases, all bearings replaced with better parts and the improved conrod on a balanced crankshaft with a different balance factor.

I will also install a  Renolds primary chain, Ferodo clutch plates and stronger clutch springs.

At the moment I have a problem with the replacement clutch wheel (stock one was cracked). The dimensions are different and it only allows the installation of 6 clutch plate and not seven :o
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: gizzo on June 20, 2022, 06:45:38 am
Huh. Any idea whether the GT has a bigger clutch basket than the 500 classics? Maybe it's beefed up to carry 7 plates to handle the extra 2hp and you've been sold a 500 basket?Idk, just throwing it out there.

Be good to hear if the new clutch is much heavier, once you're done.
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: richard211 on June 20, 2022, 07:07:28 am
The UCE 350cc bullets use a 6 plate clutch,  whereas the UCE 500's used the 7 plate clutch.
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Taurim on June 20, 2022, 07:10:59 am
The strange thing is that the reference on HM’s site is the same for the 535 and the 500 : 571100

The part I bought on eBay (not available elsewhere when I ordered it) is 57100/A :o

The part is back in stock at HM so I ordered it… Fingers crossed !

@richard : the clutch assembly on UCE looks different on the drawings ?
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Taurim on June 20, 2022, 07:14:19 am
The eBay page says 7 plates clutch wheel :

https://www.ebay.com/itm/283772385871
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: richard211 on June 20, 2022, 07:22:45 am
The part number is correct for the 7 plate clutch (571100/A). I wonder whether the replacement clutch plates you have are thicker than the one Royal Enfield uses?
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Taurim on June 20, 2022, 07:27:15 am
Same thickness. I tried with old clutch plates but it does not fit.

If HM’s part does not fit I will send them an email with a photo.

Maybe there is a revised design for the clutch assembly?…

The part at HM is not /A…
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: richard211 on June 20, 2022, 07:32:34 am
The current part number for the complete 7 plate clutch assembly is 571113/B
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Taurim on June 20, 2022, 09:06:16 pm
Right : The (broken) original part
Left : the eBay "/A" replacement part
Definitely not the same thing  ???

(https://i79.servimg.com/u/f79/20/06/54/75/2022-096.jpg) (https://servimg.com/view/20065475/2730)

Some sites display this /A reference :

(https://i79.servimg.com/u/f79/20/06/54/75/scree246.png) (https://servimg.com/view/20065475/2733)

Not HM :

(https://i79.servimg.com/u/f79/20/06/54/75/scree245.png) (https://servimg.com/view/20065475/2732)

Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: richard211 on June 21, 2022, 02:03:44 am
The part on the left is from the UCE 350 bullet.  If you look at the bottom side of both parts, the 500/535 has more or less a flat surface with radial ribs where as the 350 has a machined taper.
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Taurim on June 21, 2022, 08:28:35 am
What is the year of a "UCE 350 Bullet" ?
I searched for various 350 Bullet in HM's part books (up to 2008) but the clutch construction seems to be very different.

https://accessories.hitchcocksmotorcycles.com/Parts-Book-Online

After 2008 with the EFI it is always 571100 (without /A). But there is no 350 EFI in the part books as it was not sold in Europe I think...

Sorry, I'm not a specialist in various iterations of the Bullet engine  ;)
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: richard211 on June 21, 2022, 09:14:52 am
The models you are looking for are the Royal Enfield 350 Standard, Electra, Classic, Thunderbird (Indian Models) that were made from 2013 onwards. The 350 UCE engines are still available but only on the 2022 base model bullets. The UCE 350 was used mostly for the Indian market (exported to few other countries as well) and were underpowered compared to a stock UCE 500 Or 535 engine, but with better fuel economy.
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Taurim on June 21, 2022, 10:37:01 am
I was not able to find and online part book for these models and this specific view of 6 plates/7 plates clutch assembly which is not in HM's diagrams.

The Bay page is erroneous when it describes it as a 7 plates clutch wheel  ::)

Thanks richard  ;)
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: richard211 on June 21, 2022, 01:37:06 pm
No worries, happy I could be of some help.
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Adrian II on June 21, 2022, 05:23:35 pm
Hitchcocks' tend not to have parts books for Indian home market models. Official imports and post war Redditch  models only

A.
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Taurim on June 21, 2022, 08:45:52 pm
While waiting for some parts to be delivered I did some work to improve the intake valve unshrouding.

Thanks a lot to Paul Henshaw for his photos and videos showing how it should be done on a RE head !
It showed me my previous work on the head was not so good around the intake valve.

The valve lift are exactly what we have with the stock cams for the first photo and HM performance cams for the second.
On the stock head the valve is very close from the wall on the left.
(the valves are stock and won't be reused)

(https://i.servimg.com/u/f79/20/06/54/75/2022-097.jpg) (https://servimg.com/view/20065475/2736)

(https://i.servimg.com/u/f79/20/06/54/75/2022-098.jpg) (https://servimg.com/view/20065475/2737)
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Taurim on June 23, 2022, 06:05:20 pm
I received the clutch wheel from HM. This time it IS the correct part :)

The reference is 571100/A... but it's definitely not the same than the clutch wheel sold by some Indian eBay resellers !

Richard was right  ;)
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Taurim on June 26, 2022, 09:51:31 am
Yet another problem  >:(

I think the small spacer between the bearings on the left of the crank was forgotten during engine block reassembly. As soon as I tighten the screw on the left of the crankshaft it is very difficult to turn it...

(https://i79.servimg.com/u/f79/20/06/54/75/2022-099.jpg)

Part 7 :

(https://i79.servimg.com/u/f79/20/06/54/75/scree247.png)
(5 is a ball bearing, 8 is a roller bearing)

I even tried to only assemble parts 22 to 25 and nothing else (no clutch, no primary chain, no starter wheel) and it makes no difference.
As soon as I tighten 22 the crank is blocked

(https://i79.servimg.com/u/f79/20/06/54/75/scree248.png)

So I have to get the engine out... again  ::)
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: gizzo on June 26, 2022, 11:25:52 am
Shit. That's on the engine assembler, I hope. Hope they can find that spacer, too. That's annoying for you.
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Taurim on June 26, 2022, 03:01:46 pm
The spacer is an inexpensive part I can get fast from HM. Getting the engine block out of the frame is more annoying but with the experience I am now very fast  ::)
Engine block is now in the boot/trunk of the car. To be continued...
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Taurim on June 28, 2022, 07:09:42 pm
I was right !

After the block was opened again, no spacer 6 or 7 was found  ::)

(https://i79.servimg.com/u/f79/20/06/54/75/scree247.png)

Always fast HM's order is already under way !
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Bullet Whisperer on June 28, 2022, 07:23:45 pm
I would check those main bearings, as you said the crank became difficult to turn when you tightened the engine sprocket bolt, meaning there may have been immense strain placed on those mains, or the ball race at least.
B.W.
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Taurim on June 28, 2022, 08:20:26 pm
You are right. The external ball bearing took a big axial load when the bolt was tightened at the specified 48 Nm (I use a torque wrench).

By the way it was not the RE "made in India" bearing but a (hopefully) slightly better NKE Austria bearing sold by HM (reference 6305 class C3)

I did not found what is the maximal admissible static axial load for this kind of bearing but we will check it to see and feel if there is any kind of marking on the ball races.
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Taurim on July 22, 2022, 08:55:35 pm
At long last I finally got my engine block back. Hopefully correctly assembled this time  ::)

I started reassembly. On the left side :
- all bearings and primary chain "Made in Europe"
- Ferodo discs + 6 clutch springs 30% stronger.

Plus the balanced crankshaft and improved conrod.

(https://i.servimg.com/u/f79/20/06/54/75/2022-106.jpg) (https://servimg.com/view/20065475/2795)

Reassembly finished on this side. The crankshaft still rotates freely and all gears engage correctly  ;D

(https://i.servimg.com/u/f79/20/06/54/75/2022-105.jpg) (https://servimg.com/view/20065475/2794)

I won't make any progress on the reassembly this weekend but I hope to make some progress next week !
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Taurim on February 11, 2023, 04:29:16 pm
First 90 Km ride today since engine reassembly  :)

(https://i79.servimg.com/u/f79/20/06/54/75/image148.png) (https://servimg.com/view/20065475/3371)

Just had a slight oil leak at the head gasket at the beginning of the ride but not at the end (or not too much...).
So I will re-tighten the head and check what happens next time.

Apart from that everything is working perfectly  ;D
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Adrian II on February 11, 2023, 05:46:06 pm
Good to see you back on the road. Be careful!  ;)

A.
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: StreetKleaver on February 11, 2023, 09:15:23 pm
Hooray! Welcome back! Don't speed!  :o  8)
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: gizzo on February 11, 2023, 09:16:41 pm
Great work! How's the new crank compare with the original for vibration?
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Taurim on February 12, 2023, 01:30:09 am
Hooray! Welcome back! Don't speed!  :o  8)

 :-[

Great work! How's the new crank compare with the original for vibration?

Totally different from the previous version !

The vibrations around 4 to 5k rpm were awful. Now it buzzing gently  :)

Maybe there is more vibrations than before around 2k to 2.5k but I don't use that RPM range so it's not a problem  ;D
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Arschloch on February 12, 2023, 04:35:43 pm
Interesting, did you change the balance factor on the crank?
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Taurim on February 12, 2023, 04:47:50 pm
Interesting, did you change the balance factor on the crank?

Yes. I used the same 63% value that Egli used for their Continental GT 535 preparation.
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Arschloch on February 12, 2023, 05:02:11 pm
Yes. I used the same 63% value that Egli used for their Continental GT 535 preparation.

What was it on your crank stock? Lesser vibs at the top end of the rev range can't be a bad thing.
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Taurim on February 12, 2023, 05:59:50 pm
I don’t know. We did not measured it.
I just asked for this new balancing factor withe the exact weight of the forged piston with my carvings for the valves.

I think the stock balancing was plain wrong with the crankpin setting itself to 90 degree front (and not 180 degree up) when allowed to rotate freely without the piston attached to the conrod.
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Arschloch on February 12, 2023, 08:10:18 pm
That might be a bit hard to tell, I would think the stock balance may not be all that far from ideal. Did you drill holes someone near the crank pin?

I may measure it one day, since I have one spare crank and piston around.
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Taurim on February 12, 2023, 09:52:13 pm
Yes, the specialist who did this drilled a number of holes on each side of the crankpin.
A digital balancing machine was used to measure this.
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Arschloch on February 13, 2023, 04:49:01 pm
Well I always wanted the Swiss advice how to balance a crank, pretty sure it would defie science. Would have been sooo profitable... ;) ;D (for the swiss)
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Taurim on February 13, 2023, 05:47:23 pm
I you are searching for a text about the black magic of single cylinder balancing (applied to a pre war motorcycle), you will find it here :

http://faites-pour-rouler.over-blog.com/2017/12/la-revision-du-moteur-de-la-fn-le-facteur-d-equilibrage.html

Written in French  8)

(https://img.over-blog-kiwi.com/1/41/20/43/20180125/ob_39b4fb_fe-59.jpg)

(https://img.over-blog-kiwi.com/1/41/20/43/20180125/ob_b32bb8_fe-63.jpg)

(https://img.over-blog-kiwi.com/1/41/20/43/20180125/ob_fe042c_fe-68.jpg)
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Arschloch on February 13, 2023, 06:11:29 pm
Is it french french or is it swiss french? ... certainly there's no shortage on literature on this subject although lot of english author's use a bit too much empirical definitions for my taste, that's mainly to do with the imperial units they use.
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Taurim on February 13, 2023, 09:23:02 pm
Is it french french or is it swiss french? ... certainly there's no shortage on literature on this subject although lot of english author's use a bit too much empirical definitions for my taste, that's mainly to do with the imperial units they use.

French. By a guy specialised in old motorcycles so he prefer to use old balancing methods.
That's the reason why I wrote "the black magic of single cylinder balancing" and not "the science of..."  ;)
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Taurim on February 13, 2023, 09:34:58 pm
Today I checked the head bolts torquing... It was very weak at maybe 15 Nm  :o

Maybe I was too soft when tightening the head bolt at first, little by little up to the required 25 Nm. I think the MLS head gasket was not properly compressed, reason why the oil leaked on the sides of the gasket !

So I tightened everything again to the correct value (and checked an incredible number of times  ::) ). Checked the cylinder with the endoscope cam, seems perfectly clean.
After that I checked effective compression pressure. After the assembly I was surprised to find the same pressure than with the stock dished piston : 155 PSI
This time It's a lot better at 170 PSI !

(https://i.servimg.com/u/f79/20/06/54/75/image154.png) (https://servimg.com/view/20065475/3378)

The engine runs properly and this time no leak is visible.

Next step is to check that during a good ride  :)
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Taurim on February 14, 2023, 04:06:42 pm
Did a short 3 Km ride today just to check if the engine is oil tight. It is and it pulls a lot stronger than last Week-end  :)

I hope the weather will be nice this week-end  8)
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Arschloch on February 14, 2023, 05:17:18 pm
French. By a guy specialised in old motorcycles so he prefer to use old balancing methods.
That's the reason why I wrote "the black magic of single cylinder balancing" and not "the science of..."  ;)

Archimedes sure would have no issues understanding it.

I'm little bit behind timed.  ;D
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Taurim on February 18, 2023, 04:00:44 pm
110 Km added to the clock today for a total just over 200 Km since the reassembly.

This time the engine is totally clean and no visible change in the oil level. I don't even lose a single part due to excessive vibrations  ;D

To be on the safe side I have now to check cylinder, piston and spark plug condition + the new Autotune map generated with the 36mm TB before the next ride  :)



Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Geoff Vader on March 08, 2023, 05:17:47 pm
Hi Taurim, read your thread with interest and I’ll be going along a similar path over the coming months, but with some variations.

Can I just ask what you removed from the area below the throttle body? It looks very clear on your bike. I guess the EVAC can go, but is there more from that area that you’ve removed?

Thanks in advance. 👍
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Taurim on March 08, 2023, 05:59:34 pm
Hi Taurim, read your thread with interest and I’ll be going along a similar path over the coming months, but with some variations.

Can I just ask what you removed from the area below the throttle body? It looks very clear on your bike. I guess the EVAC can go, but is there more from that area that you’ve removed?

Thanks in advance. 👍

I removed the EVAP canister and installed all the electric wires and plugs below as cleanly as possible. Nothing more here as far as I can remember.
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: StreetKleaver on March 23, 2023, 11:59:26 pm
Yes. I used the same 63% value that Egli used for their Continental GT 535 preparation.

I'm tempted to get another complete crank and re-balance it to Elgi's specification.

How is it vibration wise compared to the stock crank? Which seems to be the most buzzy around 4000-4500 on multiple GT535s I've ridden.

The UCE classics Egli is different again due to the frame, they go for 58% to 63%
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Taurim on March 24, 2023, 11:44:53 am
When I rode several 535 to buy it, the one I choose was the worse vibration wise. I installed the carberry plate but I does not made a lot of difference.

When I disassembled the engine I saw the balancing was especially bad since, without the piston, the crankpin did not settle on the top (180°).

With the crank balanced at 60% it's vibrating a lot less around 4500 rpm  :)
Maybe there is a little more vibrations at lower revs but I it's not as painful as high frequency vibrations !
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: gizzo on March 24, 2023, 07:46:10 pm
What made you choose the worst vibrating one?

I bought mine new, from the first shipment of GTs to come to the market. I'd never ridden an Enfield before. I test rode a Bullet and was a bit disappointed by the vibration. But when my GT arrived, it was a lot smoother. I was lucky and got a nice one. So far so good.
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Taurim on March 24, 2023, 08:32:29 pm
All the less vibrating 535  were ruins ! I bought mine (used but almost new) to a distant reseller without testing it and had it delivered by truck at home during a minor event named… Covid ::)

Is was clean but vibrating and… Euro 4 :P
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: gizzo on March 24, 2023, 09:28:16 pm
and… Euro 4 :P

That's important!  ;)
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Arschloch on March 25, 2023, 11:52:56 am
Certainly important, keeps the cash flowing into the pocket of the Ukrainian Borat so he can continue entertaining us.
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: StreetKleaver on April 23, 2023, 11:38:23 am
Yes. I used the same 63% value that Egli used for their Continental GT 535 preparation.

When I rode several 535 to buy it, the one I choose was the worse vibration wise. I installed the carberry plate but I does not made a lot of difference.

When I disassembled the engine I saw the balancing was especially bad since, without the piston, the crankpin did not settle on the top (180°).

With the crank balanced at 60% it's vibrating a lot less around 4500 rpm  :)
Maybe there is a little more vibrations at lower revs but I it's not as painful as high frequency vibrations !

Hey Taurim. Just going through your previous posts. Rich BF did you end up using? 60 or 63%?
I've just balanced a 8.2kg 350cc crank for my Bullet to Egli Specification of 62%.

I think I will get another GT535 crank and re-set the balance factor.
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Taurim on April 24, 2023, 09:29:57 am
Hey Taurim. Just going through your previous posts. Rich BF did you end up using? 60 or 63%?
I've just balanced a 8.2kg 350cc crank for my Bullet to Egli Specification of 62%.

I think I will get another GT535 crank and re-set the balance factor.

In fact I don't have the exact number. The shop doing that has a good experience in that domain. I gave them the crank, the new conrod and the exact weight of the piston assembly with everything. I told them I use the engine most of the time around 4500 RPM and that the balance factor "should be" close to 60%. They took care of everything else so I don't have the balance factor they used.
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: StreetKleaver on April 25, 2023, 08:42:03 am
In fact I don't have the exact number. The shop doing that has a good experience in that domain. I gave them the crank, the new conrod and the exact weight of the piston assembly with everything. I told them I use the engine most of the time around 4500 RPM and that the balance factor "should be" close to 60%. They took care of everything else so I don't have the balance factor they used.

Fair enough. I've sent a message to the Egli workshop. Seeing if I'll get a response.
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: thefastelephant on April 26, 2023, 08:51:52 am
Some before / after pictures :

Intake :

(https://i.servimg.com/u/f79/20/06/54/75/admiss12.jpg) (https://servimg.com/view/20065475/1161)
(https://i.servimg.com/u/f79/20/06/54/75/admiss11.jpg) (https://servimg.com/view/20065475/1160)

Exhaust :

(https://i.servimg.com/u/f79/20/06/54/75/echapp11.jpg) (https://servimg.com/view/20065475/1162)
(https://i.servimg.com/u/f79/20/06/54/75/echapp12.jpg) (https://servimg.com/view/20065475/1163)

Combustion chamber :

(https://i.servimg.com/u/f79/20/06/54/75/chambr11.jpg) (https://i.servimg.com/u/f79/20/06/54/75/chambr11.jpg)
(https://i.servimg.com/u/f79/20/06/54/75/chambr10.jpg) (https://i.servimg.com/u/f79/20/06/54/75/chambr10.jpg)
(https://i.servimg.com/u/f79/20/06/54/75/chambr13.jpg)

1.15 mm less height on the cylinder to have 1 mm squish band and a better CR :



@Taurim and @BulletWhisperer

I have a few questions which I request you to please help me out with:
1) The intake and exhaust port matching, is it done on a lathe or with a handheld rotary tool (Carbide Burr and Polishing Cones)
2) The Squishband Mod, if I take the barrel off for machining, do I need to hone the barrel before re-install or do the piston rings need replacement? What is the right way to do this?

Any tips to measure the squish band before going ahead for shaving?
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Taurim on April 26, 2023, 04:20:51 pm
For the port job I used a Dremel like tool with a flexible shaft and various heads : cutters, flapwheel sanders (80) and abrasive polishing wheels (120 to 400).

The piston at TDC is not flush with the barrel. I just measured the distance between the piston top and barrel top with a dial gauge. The compressed head gasket is 0.5mm thick.
I measured 1.65 mm with the gauge so I removed 1.15mm to the base of the barrel with a lathe to have the 1mm squish distance.

Bear in mind that you will have to carve valve pockets in the top of the piston (especially on the intake side) if you use performance cams like I did.
At least you need to check that there is enough clearance between valves and piston.

Paul Henshaw didn't have to as he installs intake cams with 1 tooth offset.
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: thefastelephant on April 27, 2023, 06:20:09 am
For the port job I used a Dremel like tool with a flexible shaft and various heads : cutters, flapwheel sanders (80) and abrasive polishing wheels (120 to 400).

The piston at TDC is not flush with the barrel. I just measured the distance between the piston top and barrel top with a dial gauge. The compressed head gasket is 0.5mm thick.
I measured 1.65 mm with the gauge so I removed 1.15mm to the base of the barrel with a lathe to have the 1mm squish distance.

Bear in mind that you will have to carve valve pockets in the top of the piston (especially on the intake side) if you use performance cams like I did.
At least you need to check that there is enough clearance between valves and piston.

Paul Henshaw didn't have to as he installs intake cams with 1 tooth offset.

Hi @Taurim,

Thanks for the quick revert. I have been dreading the Valve Pocket mod as I don't feel so confident doing it although I really want to. Will retard the Stock Inlet cam for sure as I need top-end power.

I managed to hit 140 km/hr last night on my way home after removing the Cat-Con off the stock header pipes (stock internals, stock ECU, stock cam timing)

Its a little around 10 km/hr on the top end already. Interested to see what retarding the Inlet Cam does.

BTW, regarding the combustion chamber widening, any tips on how to go around that as I am confused if it may reduce compression if I widen the surrounding areas like yours did. Although your GT does go past the 160 km/hr mark it seems like a foolish question, don't mind me.
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: thefastelephant on May 08, 2023, 07:35:22 am
I took stock cams, reground them to the ACE profile. Did some reboring and honing of the centre holes, made some new new spindles out of bearing steel and ground them to the tolerances required to run roler bearings on them. No issues since... dead quite when engine is cold, some ticking with hot engine.

Am assuming you profiled the stock cams. Could you please share how and what exactly is that?

I hope am not stepping onto some line here, especially don't wanna demerit someone's hard work.

Also, what changes did you notice on the Ace Profile?
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Arschloch on May 08, 2023, 11:51:03 am
Am assuming you profiled the stock cams. Could you please share how and what exactly is that?

I hope am not stepping onto some line here, especially don't wanna demerit someone's hard work.

Also, what changes did you notice on the Ace Profile?

It's been a while, yes it's reprofiled and reworked stock cams. I don't know if the company that made the work is still around, sorry.
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Arschloch on May 08, 2023, 10:35:58 pm
H's cams are the obvious choice, not much you can do wrong installing them in your engine, they've got the added benefit that you'll see "the birds" in your dream every time you go to sleep.  :o
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Beeza on May 09, 2023, 12:20:11 am
You mean birds like the Tippyhead Wren?
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Arschloch on May 09, 2023, 05:28:52 pm
You mean birds like the Tippyhead Wren?

All sorts, I will test the H's cam once the birds are back in the cage to know for sure.
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: thefastelephant on May 10, 2023, 06:16:20 am
Hi Taurim,

Will boring the TB to 36mm need an ECU Remap?
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Arschloch on May 10, 2023, 06:38:55 am
It's definitely better to do a remap if boring the TB.
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Taurim on May 10, 2023, 06:42:12 am
It is needed.
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: thefastelephant on May 10, 2023, 10:40:08 am
Just ordered the 36mm Butterfly via E-bay to deliver to India from Germany as I couldn't procure one locally. Since there isn't a Dyno around me (the nearest one is 850 kms away), how can I temporarily map my Powertronic?

I've never worked on one however I wanna learn this.

It has a R-Tune software which has Fuel and Ignition Map tables.

It has RPM Columns and Throttle Load % as rows. What values would I be looking at or any links to self-learn on YT would be really helpful.
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Taurim on May 10, 2023, 11:15:40 am
As it is a piggyback ECU like a Dynojet PC V, the maps contains deltas compared to stock injection timing and ignition advance angles. The values depends upon your configuration and can be totally counter intuitive. It's not a guess work, you need to measure AFR to determine if you need to add or remove fuel at a specific RPM/throttle opening.
That's the reason why I used a PC V with a autotune module.

A cheaper way to do that (without a Dyno) would be to install a Lambda Wide band sensor (weld a Bung on the exhaust, it's not the same diameter than stock Lambda sensor) + AFR gauge you can install on the handlebar so you will be able to see if you reach the AFR target you want and note if you need to add or remove fuel manually for a specific RPM/throttle opening.

Slow process but doable.
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: thefastelephant on May 10, 2023, 12:21:07 pm
Thanks for this Taurim. Will study up on this to pursue.

Also, regarding Boring the Throttle Body, how did you bore around the butterfly holder? I believe it can't be pulled out. Only the Butterfly comes off.
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Taurim on May 10, 2023, 12:34:44 pm
You have to remove both screw which are holding the valve on the axis. Then you can pull the valve out and remove the axis.
The slot in the axis is large enough to hold a 36mm valve. Or it may need to be slightly trimmed on the sides.

The 36mm valve I used come from a 36mm Weber car carburettor (vertical). I bought it new in Italy and it comes with 2 screws which are compatible with the axis of the Keihin TB.
I had to sand the valve as it was 1.5mm thick and the slot is 1.25mm.
Be aware that the sides of the valve have a slight angle to fit the inside of the carburetor when closed. The valve is not round but oval.
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: thefastelephant on May 10, 2023, 08:13:34 pm
Hi Taurim,

Thanks for the response earlier. Just to clarify...

1) I remove the 34mm round disc/butterfly from its axis/shaft by removing the 2 screws on it

2) I thin the 1.5mm thick 36mm round 80 degree butterfly of the Weber Carb and insert it into the axis/shaft

Now, my main question is...To bore the TB from the factory's 34mm to 36mm did you take out the TPS Sensor and the circlip under it to totally pull out the shaft before inserting into lathe for a bore?
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Taurim on May 10, 2023, 08:54:09 pm
Yes I removed everything from the TB : sensors, axis, screws and springs.
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: thefastelephant on May 11, 2023, 05:29:27 am
Yes I removed everything from the TB : sensors, axis, screws and springs.

Great! Thanks, this helps. Am scared of messing around with the throttle body since it is quite expensive and will be a while to get one ordered.

I was told by a RE authorised service technician that removing stuff off of it may mess around with the TPS voltages etc. so just chewing every forum member's brains about this before I tear it down for the boring.

Your help is absolutely "GOLD" Taurim. Sincerely appreciate it.

Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Taurim on May 11, 2023, 01:09:07 pm
By boring the TB and installing a new flap you will have to adjust the position of the TPS so it's not a problem to remove it.

It was easy to adjust with the PCV. With a PC connected to the PCV the Dynojet Software displays the TPS readings and you can adjust the volts value of the idle position and full throttle position.

You have to check that you can do the same with the Powertronic. I think you can :
https://powertronicecu.com/wp-content/plugins/wp-extra-file-types/PowerTRONIC%20V4%20-%20TPS%20Calibration%20-min.pdf
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: thefastelephant on May 11, 2023, 07:47:57 pm
Got it! Thanks a ton. My Powertronics won't hold idle beyond few seconds and cuts off in traffic since the head being ported. Hope a Dyno Run and Tune may resolve this.
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Taurim on May 11, 2023, 08:17:00 pm
For that one you probably need to adjust the idle screw on top of the TB. You have to remove the seat and lift the rear of the tank to access it.
Unscrew it until the idle is high enough and perfectly stable.
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: thefastelephant on May 13, 2023, 07:10:57 am
By boring the TB and installing a new flap you will have to adjust the position of the TPS so it's not a problem to remove it.

It was easy to adjust with the PCV. With a PC connected to the PCV the Dynojet Software displays the TPS readings and you can adjust the volts value of the idle position and full throttle position.

You have to check that you can do the same with the Powertronic. I think you can :
https://powertronicecu.com/wp-content/plugins/wp-extra-file-types/PowerTRONIC%20V4%20-%20TPS%20Calibration%20-min.pdf

Yup, the R-Tune software by Racedynamics for Powertronics ECU has the voltage readings so am sure that'll help. Moreover, I have arranged a spare used Throttle Body from a friend who rides a Yellow GT 535 so that I can ride the bike on the stock throttle body to the Dyno Center.

The service manual states 0.6V is the required reading. (With the kill switch off its at 0.4) so all good there.
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: thefastelephant on May 13, 2023, 08:57:25 am
By boring the TB and installing a new flap you will have to adjust the position of the TPS so it's not a problem to remove it.

It was easy to adjust with the PCV. With a PC connected to the PCV the Dynojet Software displays the TPS readings and you can adjust the volts value of the idle position and full throttle position.

You have to check that you can do the same with the Powertronic. I think you can :
https://powertronicecu.com/wp-content/plugins/wp-extra-file-types/PowerTRONIC%20V4%20-%20TPS%20Calibration%20-min.pdf

Just to confirm, attaching the photo of the TPS unit slot that needs to be adjust. I believe its that "TORX" screw that needs to be loosened to adjust the TPS Values.

Also, when I connect the laptop for TPS readings, the readings are too quick to settle down on. Is it normal or is it supposed to be stable? If its unstable, does that mean my TPS needs to be changed?
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: thefastelephant on May 13, 2023, 03:18:29 pm
For that one you probably need to adjust the idle screw on top of the TB. You have to remove the seat and lift the rear of the tank to access it.
Unscrew it until the idle is high enough and perfectly stable.

Factory recommends 0.6V +- 0.02V

What Voltage are you running with the enlarged TB?
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Taurim on May 13, 2023, 06:34:23 pm
I don't remember but the value was  stable.
The voltage is not important as you can set what value is the idle and WOT with the PCV
But I I remember correctly I noted the voltage at idle before disassembly and turned the sensor to read the same value during the reassembly (after having set the screw which is the stop for flap closed).
This screw setting is important because too low = there is a risk oh the flap being stuck when closing throttle. Too high = flap not closed enough and you will have to much air at idle, even when totally closing the idle screw on top of the TB (it opens a separate air circuit)
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Taurim on August 22, 2023, 02:45:10 pm
Today I took a picture of my 535  8)

Do you notice the new modification  :) (not performance related this time !)

(https://i79.servimg.com/u/f79/20/06/54/75/image245.jpg) (https://servimg.com/view/20065475/3689)
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: gizzo on August 23, 2023, 12:07:54 am
Are those mudguards new ali ones?
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Taurim on August 23, 2023, 12:47:08 am
Both mudguards are Al indeed but it's an old mod.

The new mod is on the engine  ;)
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: gizzo on August 23, 2023, 12:55:58 am
Unpainted the cylinder?
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Taurim on August 23, 2023, 12:59:18 am
Yup  :)

(Don't do it. Is a real PITA !)
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: gizzo on August 23, 2023, 02:10:11 am
Thanks for the tip!  ;D
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Taurim on August 23, 2023, 12:47:12 pm
But I like the look of the result :)
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: KD5ITM on August 23, 2023, 06:27:42 pm
Regarding the length, on my GT, the friction fit into the airbox connector allowed me to position the stack with adjustable length.

What would be the proper length for 3,200 - 4,000 RPM’s?
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: KD5ITM on August 23, 2023, 06:38:12 pm
Today I took a picture of my 535  8)

Do you notice the new modification  :) (not performance related this time !)

(https://i79.servimg.com/u/f79/20/06/54/75/image245.jpg) (https://servimg.com/view/20065475/3689)

What is this?
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Taurim on August 23, 2023, 07:04:47 pm
In my country it is  mandatory to display a small paper showing the insurance contract of the vehicule.
This is a reproduction of a vintage English tax disc holder. It is less ugly than having the paper glued somewhere on the bike and more "period correct".

(https://i79.servimg.com/u/f79/20/06/54/75/image311.png) (https://servimg.com/view/20065475/3691)
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: KD5ITM on August 24, 2023, 12:41:37 am
In my country it is  mandatory to display a small paper showing the insurance contract of the vehicule.
This is a reproduction of a vintage English tax disc holder. It is less ugly than having the paper glued somewhere on the bike and more "period correct".

(https://i79.servimg.com/u/f79/20/06/54/75/image311.png) (https://servimg.com/view/20065475/3691)

Interesting 🤔
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Taurim on August 24, 2023, 01:05:52 am
You can find that in H's shop for example : https://accessories.hitchcocksmotorcycles.com/accessory-shop/Tax-Disc-Holder/17221
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: GUNR on August 25, 2023, 12:59:25 pm
Going back a couple of posts, that motor of yours looks so much bigger and more beautiful being all the same alloy grey without the horrible black barrel. I know you suggested against it (PITA), but how did you go about it? Surely not paint stripper applied with a cloth-wrapped icecream stick?
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Taurim on August 25, 2023, 01:10:43 pm
It was indeed paint stripper ! Several layers of it and a lot of brushing with rotary wire brush of various sizes.

It is probably more simple to sandblast it at some point in the process.
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Adrian II on August 25, 2023, 11:53:09 pm
I gather the factory powder coats everything these days, it needs a strong paint stripper to shift it, if you can still get one retail (most of the good stuff is no longer sold over the counter in the UK). I've taken to getting this stuff off by taking it to a local finishers who strip and re-coat alloy wheels for boy-racers' cars. A session in their acid vat followed by vapour blasting brings the alloy up nicely. A purist would then polish the edges of the fins!

A.
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Taurim on August 26, 2023, 02:17:57 pm
Dipping a brand new barrel in the acid sounds like a bad idea for the cylinder walls  ;)
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: thefastelephant on August 26, 2023, 02:55:34 pm
Hi Taurim,

Needed some help. I ordered a 35mm 80 degree Butterfly from eBay but it seems to keep getting stuck in Germany when shipped.

Any alternative links or leads to find one in India? Suprisingly its hard finding a 36mm Butterfly in India :'( I bored my spare Throttle Body and managed to dismantle it thanks to your inputs. But the circlip isn't snapping back on. Any tips?
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Adrian II on August 26, 2023, 03:21:00 pm
Dipping a brand new barrel in the acid sounds like a bad idea for the cylinder walls  ;)

No harm done so far. I did read that acid is used, though if if doesn't actually harm the base metal of alloy wheels it's unlikely to damage a cylinder bore. Could just be a proper strength methylene chloride industrial paint stripper which we're not allowed to have for domestic use.

A.
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: axman88 on August 26, 2023, 05:16:46 pm
I gather the factory powder coats everything these days, it needs a strong paint stripper to shift it,
My employer uses a lot of powder coating services.  The manager of one of these told us that their process for cleaning their fixtures and equipment of accumulated coating involves burning the stuff off in an oven.  Sorry, no details on temperature, time, or how they handle the fumes were given.
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Taurim on August 27, 2023, 05:10:38 pm
Needed some help. I ordered a 35mm 80 degree Butterfly from eBay but it seems to keep getting stuck in Germany when shipped.

Any alternative links or leads to find one in India? Suprisingly its hard finding a 36mm Butterfly in India :'( I bored my spare Throttle Body and managed to dismantle it thanks to your inputs. But the circlip isn't snapping back on. Any tips?

For the butterfly valve IIRC it was a used part coming from a Dell'Orto car carb and I found it in Italy. Maybe there was not so much cars with 36mm carb in India when cars used to have carbs ?
I don't remember having  problems to refit the circlip.
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: thefastelephant on September 06, 2023, 04:19:00 pm
Hi again @Taurim,

Just a quick question about the ECU Remap on your beast after the Throttle Body was bored.

Did you do it by yourself at home or on a dyno?

Is it necessary for me to have an O2 Sensor since mine's a BS3 model that comes from the factory without an O2 Sensor and my Powertronics too doesn't have an O2 Sensor in its wiring loop.

My GT is on stock internals with all the head porting, chamber polishing, Valve unshrouding, port matching, and squish banding that you guided me with earlier.

For the 3rd time, the 36mm Weber Throttle Butterfly Plates got stuck at Customs and nobody can find them at IndiaPost so gonna machine new ones this weekend from a fresh sheet of brass (1.2mm thick).

Surprisingly, very little information is available online for machining these at the 80 degree stop angle.

Managed to get my Powertronic running last night. Turns out the girl needed some ignition timing retarding at idle load to avoid stalling.

Waiting to hear from you about the new ECU Remap.

Also, what do I need to do if I have to remap from home without a dyno.

Where in the table (Fuel / Ignition) should I begin?
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Taurim on September 06, 2023, 05:05:26 pm
Hi,

I "autodefined" the map with the Dynojet Autotune which is an additional module connected to the Dynojet PowerCommander V.
The Lambda Wideband is connected to the Autotune which sends realtime O2 measurements to the PC V which is able to create a delta map and apply it live while you are riding.
So no need for a dyno or a guesswork.

I have some pictures of all the Dynojet hardware I added to the bike :

(https://i79.servimg.com/u/f79/20/06/54/75/dynoje12.jpg) (https://servimg.com/view/20065475/3697)

(https://i79.servimg.com/u/f79/20/06/54/75/implan13.jpg) (https://servimg.com/view/20065475/3698)

(https://i79.servimg.com/u/f79/20/06/54/75/wideba12.jpg) (https://servimg.com/view/20065475/3699)

My latest injection map (all values are delta in percent of stock injection time) :

(https://i28.servimg.com/u/f28/20/51/97/69/image11.png)
Greyed out numbers are when the ECU is in closed loop mode with stock lambda sensor. The PCV + Autotune can not alter the timings (specific to Euro 4, the non zero numbers in this area is a special trick by HMC)

The PCV is instructed via an AFR map what is the AFR target for each position.

Without this hardware you need some dyno time to define your new map.
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Taurim on September 06, 2023, 10:57:55 pm
To illustrate my previous message here is my AFR map which is used by the PCV to compute injection timing using the Autotune measurements :

(https://i79.servimg.com/u/f79/20/06/54/75/scree339.png) (https://servimg.com/view/20065475/3700)


0 means Autotune not used as the ECU is in closed loop mode.
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: thefastelephant on September 07, 2023, 05:43:49 am
Hi Taurim,

Thanks for the immediate response. You've been very helpful to a beginner like myself. Sincerely appreciate it man :)

Thank you!
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Taurim on September 07, 2023, 06:37:19 pm
Glad to help  ;)
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: thefastelephant on September 10, 2023, 03:00:27 pm
Just a quick update, after alotta thinking and trying, and waiting for 3 months after ordering the 36mm Weber Butterfly Plate, I have finally decided to machine a new butterfly for my bored TB.

Made a fixture for the throttle plate stop angles to be machined. After supremely frustrating google results, found an article on a hot-rod forum that shows how to make a Throttle Plate / Butterfuly Valve. Here is the fixture and larger 38mm Butterfly Plates cut from a fresh sheet of Brass ready to be machined tomorrow.

Shall post progress about the same later this week.
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Taurim on September 10, 2023, 04:21:20 pm
Be careful as 38 mm is probably too big.
I'm not sure there is enough metal on the stock TB to bore it from 34 to 38mm !

You will machine the fixture to 36mm ?
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: thefastelephant on September 11, 2023, 03:01:21 pm
Hi Taurim,

So machined them to the 36mm bore size and to my bad-luck, the machined Butterfly didn't fit as expected. All sides don't seal well. If am correct, the butterfly valve is supposed to seal the bore shut when in idle position, unfortunately mine has a very small gap that I can't seem to fix.

I machined a couple of these by still the same deal.

Could it be cos' I man-handle the butterfly shaft when removing the screws originally?

What else could be the reason?

Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Taurim on September 11, 2023, 05:57:00 pm
It's difficult to see but it looks like you butterfly valve is slightly off-center. I had to slightly file both sides of the valve where it is in contact with the command axle.
The valve should seal correctly the bore although if there is some gaps you should be able to compensate the idle RPM with the air screw on top. The risk is only to have a too high idle rpm even with the air screw fully closed.

If I may, your screws are not very "aerodynamic"  ;)

Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: thefastelephant on September 12, 2023, 06:32:32 am
Okay so,

- Turns out I milled the fixture too bad at 20 degrees, re machined it to 10 degrees
- With the newly machined 10 degree fixture the gap is almost eradicated, very little gap now compared to earlier
- Haha, the screws am waiting to find "aerodynamic" ones 🤣
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: thefastelephant on September 15, 2023, 07:14:33 am
Hello,

So machined a new Butteryfly with the fixture at 80 degree angle (correctly this time). After a few attempts, machined 2 of them, installed the one with the least gaps in the bore.

Did a water leak test and the water drops drip down from the shaft sides slowly, nothing from the butterfly sides on neither top or bottom. Cleaned the TB and the manifold since both were machined for a 36mm I.D.

Hand sanded with 80, 220, 400 and 600 grit with some WD40. Then used a rotary tool with scotch brite brushes in the following sequence (Green, Red, Yellow, Black)

Then used some Autosol Metal polish to the smoothest surface at the end.

Finally cleaned with RE's own Throttle Body / Carburetor Cleaner sold at authorized workshops. Surprisingly worked very well, enough pressure to clear out toughest of grime and bits caught up inside. Especially in the MAP sensor holes.

Carefully reinstalled everything, got the TPS sensor in and adjusted at 0.60 V with the engine running.

Just thought of sharing the TPS Voltages below:
> TPS voltage at Kill Switch On starts at 0.63V till the Fuel Pump Prime of 3 seconds is running but engine is not started up

> TPS voltage at Kill Switch On stays at 0.65V after the Fuel Pump is primed but engine is not started up

> TPS voltage at Kill Switch On and the Engine Running at Cold Startup using the Kick Lever is at a steady 0.60V (I have removed my Starter Motor)

Will get the upsized 36mm TB installed this weekend after am off work. Hopefully I shall manage to get the fueling right as it will be my first time using the Powertronics Tuning Software "R-Tune"
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Taurim on September 15, 2023, 08:01:57 am
Perfect  :)
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: thefastelephant on September 16, 2023, 02:43:06 pm
Hi Taurim,

Installed the new Bored 36mm Throttle Body and she fired up pretty sweet. Crisp Throttle Response to stock map. Gonna tune the Powertronic with a RevXtension and up the fueling by trial and error.

Ordering the 'H' Cams this evening to India. Hoping they arrive as soon as they can so that I can take her to the Dyno setup for a tune with Powertronics. Its 690 kms away from home so planning a whole weekend ride, stay, tune, return riding home in October.

Thanks like a million times for guiding me with this.
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Taurim on September 16, 2023, 03:02:38 pm
 ;)
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: thefastelephant on September 17, 2023, 06:20:12 am
Hi Taurim,

Are you happy with the stock clutch plates or find the need of improved clutch plates by EBC as listed by H?
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Taurim on September 17, 2023, 02:01:28 pm
I had sometimes clutch slip with my previous setup but one of the spring column was broken.

As I rebuilt everything and tried to make everything as good as possible, I installed Ferodo clutch discs, stronger clutch spring and improved bearings.
I'm not really sure it's a mandatory mod but It's a lot better than my half broken previous clutch  ;)
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Taurim on October 30, 2023, 03:13:59 pm
I measured the compression on my rebuilt engine.

I think this time the piston rings/cylinder sealing is correct now :)

(https://i79.servimg.com/u/f79/20/06/54/75/image261.jpg) (https://servimg.com/view/20065475/3770)

With my previous build (stock dished piston and probably a cylinder barrel which was somewhat tired) I only measured 10.5 bars / 155 PSI.

With such a high compression for a poor old EFI of course I use the best gasoline/petrol available here :  98 RON/88 MON/93 AKI.
I also switch to a NKG "8" from a "7". Stock is "6".

Before starting to modify the 535 it was :

(https://i.servimg.com/u/f79/20/06/54/75/image153.png)

With the shortened barrel and stock piston it was :

(https://i.servimg.com/u/f79/20/06/54/75/image154.png)
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: gizzo on October 30, 2023, 11:32:41 pm
I had sometimes clutch slip with my previous setup but one of the spring column was broken.

As I rebuilt everything and tried to make everything as good as possible, I installed Ferodo clutch discs, stronger clutch spring and improved bearings.
I'm not really sure it's a mandatory mod but It's a lot better than my half broken previous clutch  ;)

It's probably best that you did trick up the clutch. My mostly stock engine can make the clutch slip when it's being given the berries. Only on gear changes though.

That's some good comression you have there. Makes me want to go see what mine has these days....
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: StreetKleaver on November 30, 2023, 07:42:28 pm
Hi Taurim. Just dropping in to see how the bored 36mm Throttle Bodies are going?

Considering the stock heads have a inlet port of 34ish mm (pinches up to 31-32mm in places). The standard 34mm TB would of been fine.

Since us modified versions have ports opened up did that possibly make the 34mm throttle body a restriction?

Have you noticed any differences in power delivery? I assume it would be later in the rpm range? How is it all going?

Cheers.

Ben
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Taurim on November 30, 2023, 09:00:10 pm
I just finished the engine run-in and changed the oil but did not ride it since. It's too cold now :-[

When I was still running it in... sort of  ;D... I saw that it was easy to almost reach 160 kph on the clock without even crouching on the tank  :)

Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: StreetKleaver on November 30, 2023, 10:14:00 pm
I just finished the engine run-in and changed the oil but did not ride it since. It's too cold now :-[

When I was still running it in... sort of  ;D... I saw that it was easy to almost reach 160 kph on the clock without even crouching on the tank  :)



Interesting. I do find on mine after 150 to 160 is a slow crawl. But it zips up fine to 150 easily. Possibly that's the TB restriction. Can only speculate unless it gets flow tested. It might be a good thing!

I'm about to install a 38 tooth rear sprocket with the 17 tooth front.

At the moment it's 17-36. But my taller
skinnier 18x4.00 rear tyre makes the current gearing a little lower than stock (like the the 18 tooth front sprocket) it's kind of 17.5 - 36.

I'll experiment and tune with the new lower gearing and tune the Velocity stack length to suit. Also lift the limiter from 5700rpm to 6000rpm. I tend to hit that limiter easily with the new balanced crankshaft. Haha
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Taurim on November 30, 2023, 10:30:16 pm
I use a 18x36 gearing which is quite short now (stock tyre size).
Maybe I could go faster with a 18x34 but I prefer to keep it short. It's more useful for the little roads where I ride and the high level of speed repression here.
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: StreetKleaver on November 30, 2023, 11:03:18 pm
I use a 18x36 gearing which is quite short now (stock tyre size).
Maybe I could go faster with a 18x34 but I prefer to keep it short. It's more useful for the little roads where I ride and the high level of speed repression here.

Basically at present mine behaves the same as stock gearing. We don't have high speed roads in Australia. 110km/hr on some highways but predominantly 100km/hr. 30km/hr over the speed limit is instant loss of licence in my state. 7km/hr over and higher are big fines.

So I the slightly lower gear for more acceleration and nicer power on the tight stuff. Also to upset some Harley riders off the lights too!  ;D
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Taurim on November 30, 2023, 11:46:50 pm
We have a good network of 130 km/h higways but with a lot of distance between an entrance and an exit. Boring and not good for a single cylinder.
Some 110 km/h highways, most of the roads are 80 km/h.

40 km/h over the limit is 4 month loss of licence (the first time) and 4 points removed from your 12 points. (over 120 kph on most roads !)
50 km/h over and your vehicle is confiscated. Maybe definitely...
0 point = permanent loss of licence (I don't have my 12 points anymore  ::) )

And a lot of speed traps and speed guns on roads with a lot of traffic. Country roads are more safe but not sure.

So chasing top speed with the 535 is a risky game !
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: StreetKleaver on January 12, 2024, 09:56:20 am
Any progress and news how it rides?

Out of curiosity how thick is the brass sheet material used for the butterfly?

I might have a cracking machining one up on my lathe.
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Taurim on January 12, 2024, 10:32:09 am
Not riding it currently as the weather is quite bad (snow, freezing cold,black ice...)
I'm waiting for the Spring season  ;)

I had to remove some 1/10th of millimeters from the butterfly valve to fit it in the TB command axle.
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Beeza on January 12, 2024, 05:18:44 pm
It was +7C here (southern British Columbia) a few days ago, with plants threatening to declare Spring. Today it is -25C (-15F or so) and -34C up in the hills. A part of the Arctic airmass is blundering it’s way down to Iowa to vote in the Primaries, I guess.

Somewhat off topic, but our heat pump is still keeping up, which it is advertised to be able to do but hard to get your head around. It is a special  cold climate model by Mitsubishi which has a two stage rotor compressor like a two stage blower. It does give up at -25 and default to resistive coils as the efficiency drops off after that, but those who whine about heat pumps not working below freezing are used to the ones made from old style air conditioners running in reverse.

As an AC unit in summer this thing just idles even at +40. Since we have hydroelectric here, the house is carbon neutral, except for a Generac backup generator on natural gas for emergencies.

From what I read, the most fuel efficient bikes are Enfield singles. 32 km/l is what I usually get which is eight to ten more than I get from my Suzuki GS 450, and it’s well tuned for efficiency. But it has twice as many bits turning half again faster.

I have one straightaway by a dry lake where I can an test top speed, knowing that nobody will notice. It gets up to 90 readily and then it is wind, time and patience. Personally, I don’t much care for how a motorcycle feels beyond about 85; more like a projectile than a dance partner.

As yet, I haven’t seen anything else, newish, that would bump it from the garage.


Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: gizzo on January 13, 2024, 12:28:30 am
It was +7C here (southern British Columbia) a few days ago, with plants threatening to declare Spring. Today it is -25C (-15F or so) and -34C up in the hills. A part of the Arctic airmass is blundering it’s way down to Iowa to vote in the Primaries, I guess.

42 deg C at my place yesterday. Too hot to ride. We spent the day waterskiing instead.
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: AzCal Retred on January 13, 2024, 03:54:48 am
Thanks for the heads-up on that heat pump tech! Those are amazing numbers that those dual-stage compressors can hit. When HVAC replacement time comes around, Mitsubishi hardware will be at the top of the list.
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Beeza on January 13, 2024, 05:37:54 am
I think Mitsubishi bought Trane air conditioners in the US. Trane is/was a high end brand.

The newer units seem to be side discharge style. Really quiet, soft start, variable speed. Up here, any new home build has to have a heat pump by law.



Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Taurim on January 13, 2024, 01:10:06 pm
Here the electricity is (at the moment of the writing) 63% atom, 14% hydro, 8% solar, 2% wind, 1% biogaz. The remaining being 10% gaz and fuel, no coal.

The house boiler was burning fuel but I converted it to wood pellets 10 years ago (the boiler is almost as modded as my 535  ;D ).

My daily Subaru is running on alcohol made from local beet, not corn. The only way to have less CO2 emissions than petrol.

So everything is as carbon neutral as possible  :)

I could use alcohol in the 535. It could help to avoid ping with my very high compression ratio... But I don't have enough control of the injection time with the Euro 4 ECU + piggyback PC V  :(
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Richard230 on January 13, 2024, 02:12:05 pm
Thanks for the heads-up on that heat pump tech! Those are amazing numbers that those dual-stage compressors can hit. When HVAC replacement time comes around, Mitsubishi hardware will be at the top of the list.

Just wait until you find out what it will cost to install one of those heat pump furnaces this year. (Due to the usual range of excuses, prices went up about 25% last year.) My daughter just had one installed in her temperate location and it set her back $24,000, compared with a replacement gas furnace that goes for around $7,000. Added to that cost were inspection fees by both a private HERS (whatever that is) consultant (required by the county) and the county building inspection permit, which totaled just under $1K (for both inspections).
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: AzCal Retred on January 13, 2024, 10:27:37 pm
Here we use about $3500 worth of propane yearly on heating water & the whole house. The Mitsubishi hardware is more energy efficient, so summer AC power consumption will be less. My only objection to heat pumps was that in the past they basically stopped working at 40F ambient. Mitsubishi has fixed that.

Your daughter has plenty of PV & battery so she'll just have more to export. Myself my PV is maybe 10% over yearly electrical usage now. Using a heat pump in lieu of propane eliminates that $3500. I can always add more PV. Just saving $3500 yearly on propane is an 8 year payback for the heat pump over a 20 year service life.

Making your own power means there isn't a monthly cost for fuel. That'll never be the case with gas heat. You are a captive to the fuel price. $7K up front and 20 years of $3K-$4K bills vs. $17K more up front and zero monthly for 20 years if you have the PV capacity. You become immune to energy price increases. That definitely has value.

The sole downside of a heat pump is house heat in a power outage. A large enough generator solves that, plus we have a wood stove for ambiance, supplemental heat and cooking. The Mitsubishi drive motors are inverter driven, that means a smaller generator can start them, it needn't be 3x the full load amps of the largest motor load.



Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Beeza on January 14, 2024, 12:49:32 am
One thing to be conscious of is that heat pumps don’t put out hot air but a large volume of warm air. They work best if you have a well insulated house and generous ducting.

Wall mounted units work well at moving a lot of air but you face the dilemma of trying to heat something from above. Conversely, floor ducted  air conditioners have a problem trying to get cold air to rise.

Once you get the thermodynamics figured out, there is usually a convenient solution. Our problem is the old galvanized steel ducting down below that takes a while to get up to temp, while the new stuff has zip for thermal mass. There’s a massive steel plenum that is fifty feet long left over from the fifties when metal was cheap, but I wasn’t looking for a thermal flywheel.
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: StreetKleaver on January 14, 2024, 05:07:58 am
Not riding it currently as the weather is quite bad (snow, freezing cold,black ice...)
I'm waiting for the Spring season  ;)

I had to remove some 1/10th of millimeters from the butterfly valve to fit it in the TB command axle.

Do you remember how thick the actual brass butterfly is? I just want to pull my TB off just to check the thickness of the brass.

Lately it's been Monsoonal weather in Qld. Where I live in South East Queensland it's averaging 36dgC at 80% humidity. I havent ridden my bike for a month. Too hot!
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: Taurim on January 14, 2024, 01:52:13 pm
Do you remember how thick the actual brass butterfly is? I just want to pull my TB off just to check the thickness of the brass.

I found the original butterfly valve in my stock ! It is precisely 1.20 mm thick.
Title: Re: New member here with my slightly modified Continental GT 535
Post by: StreetKleaver on January 14, 2024, 09:05:44 pm
I found the original butterfly valve in my stock ! It is precisely 1.20 mm thick.

Awesome! Thanks mate. You're a legend.