[AzCal Retred]

Who knew? Here's a good start for some sidehack owner:

https://nash-fuel.myshopify.com/products/propane-conversion-kit-motorcycle-600cc-requires-custom-intake?_pos=314&_sid=a4f3f4c52&_ss=r

https://nash-fuel.myshopify.com/products/kawasaki-bayou-klf-300-propane-conversion-kit-klf300-atv-4-four-wheeler-lpg-quad?_pos=321&_sid=a4f3f4c52&_ss=r


PROPANE CONVERSION KIT MOTORCYCLE 600CC REQUIRES CUSTOM INTAKE
Regular price $415.00

INCLUDES: EVERYTHING REQUIRED TO CONVERT TO STRAIGHT PROPANE EXCEPT FOR TANK AND TANK BRACKET
APPLICATION: UP TO 600CC MOTORCYCLE ; THIS IS A REPLACEMENT CARBURETOR, STRAIGHT PROPANE ONLY ; GENERAL INSTRUCTIONS INCLUDED ; MODIFICATION NECESSARY FOR FITMENT ; LEVER WILL NEED TO BE DRILLED TO MATCH STOCK LEVER

This might be a good solution for the environmentally sensitive. Bolt on eco-tech with no recharge hassle.

[Adrian II]

Just needs some safe way to mount a reasonable size propane canister on a solo... I'm sure it will have been done, somewhere.

A.

[AzCal Retred]

I think if the tank was constructed into the machine, utilized as part of the frame structurally, it would be workable. A pressure vessel is a wicked thing to work around on a motorcycle. Certainly would be a nice use of a sidehack though, add in 60 to 100 pounds of fuel, a range before refueling of maybe 1000 miles/1600 Km...?

[Adrian II]

LPG is still a thing for a few cars over here, some gas stations sell it. For 4 wheelers it's a case of refilling a fixed tank in the vehicle, rather than swapping a patio BBQ cylinder, which is probably what you'd want with a sidecar.

Here's some more propane fun from a few years ago. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zsXWspo5hrc

A.

[AzCal Retred]

Nice athodid! Must be version "V1", yes?

At our old pulverized coal-fired powerplant we tried to get them to let us build one for the Air-preheater, but as nearly always happens, the mantra "change is bad" ruled the decision process.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pulsejet

[Arschloch]

Nice athodid! Must be version "V1", yes?

At our old pulverized coal-fired powerplant we tried to get them to let us build one for the Air-preheater, but as nearly always happens, the mantra "change is bad" ruled the decision process.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pulsejet

Change is Bad I am starting to see what you mean. If you come though with the idea of modernising an coal-fired plant it may sound to some like "more of the same", certainly to Gretas folowers.

[AzCal Retred]

Yes - "Change is Bad"...American industry at it's best.

The coal pulse jet idea was to supply heated attemperation & transport air to the coal pulverizer mills, using "waste process coal dust" which it would have done easily while reducing electrical load from the other fans involved. NREL already had a working design they'd used for blowing emissions related powdered limestone into the East Coast boilers "for free". All we had to do was copy it, which we could have easily done as we had lots of scrap piping and a full Weld Shop and Machine Shop. We just needed Corporate permission from "above", unfortunately those people had zero interest in improving their process facilities and the local Management folks wouldn't risk their bonus for complying with Corporate 110%. Too many college educated frat boys running the show as a money extraction service instead of as an Electrical Utility accountable to the public. They shut down our Nevada plant despite it having nothing to do with California and being in full compliance with Nevada state law. SCE scrapped it and walked away for a mere $80M despite Nevada Power being able to take over operation. About 10 million MWHrs of cheap power ($25 vs an average of $115 to $500) was decomissioned so SCE could make real money wheeling in out of state MWHrs. Taking the rate to $30-$35/MWHr would have been cheap power still, and also allowed NP to modernize & update emissions at the facility. 10M MWHrs at even $50/MWHr retail (cheap!!) is $500M dollars, so there was plenty of money to be made even after covering the O&M of $250M.  The Golden Rule in action, and they were after real money.

Coal is carbon, NatGas (C) is mostly methane (CH4). 1 mole of C combusted produces 1 Mole of CO2. 1 Mole of CH4 produces 1 mole of CO2 & 2 moles of H2O. And whilst we're whinging about atmospheric CO2, there are still "CO2 mines" (high CO2 concentration natgas) in operation for the chemical & beverage industries. Go figure. And by the by - you can't just "look up" CO2 mining, you have to weezil in to it. Someone has enough coin to clean up that rude footprint from the Interwebs...

http://www.uigi.com/carbondioxide.html
CO2-rich natural gas reservoirs found in underground formations found primarily in the western United States and in Canada are another source of recoverable carbon dioxide.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/334765036_CO2_Rich_Natural_Gas_Processing_Technical_Power_Consumption_and_Emission_Comparisons_of_Conventional_and_Supersonic_Technologies
Supersonic separator is investigated via process simulation for treating CO 2 rich (>40%) natural gas in terms of dew-points adjustment and CO 2 removal for enhanced oil recovery.


 

[NVDucati]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zsXWspo5hrc

A.

Some years back I was involved, in a very minor way, with a Craig Breelove attempt. One of the best parts was that a "tribe" of jet powered gocart folks showed up for a jamboree. They kindly gave us all a chance at some of the more tame rigs. Yup. Accelerating.

[Carl Fenn]

God that takes me back to when l was 17 and just passed my forklift test, the first forklift They put me on was a petrol engine converted to gas because of fumes inside the factory petrol a no go, but in saying that it ran sweet as a nut on gas and seemed very economical it’s been around for a long time.

[AzCal Retred]

In my extreme youth I worked as a support crew for a propane powered cotton harvester. It could set "cold iron" for 10 months, then with a fresh battery & opening up the LP supply valve, it was instantly ready for business, no carb overhaul required. It's a nice fuel.

[zimmemr]

In my extreme youth I worked as a support crew for a propane powered cotton harvester. It could set "cold iron" for 10 months, then with a fresh battery & opening up the LP supply valve, it was instantly ready for business, no carb overhaul required. It's a nice fuel.

Popular with farm tractors for the same reason, plus they made good power and you didn't have to change the oil as often. There are still a few of them being used on the farms around here.

[gizzo]

LPG (propane, same thing, almost) has been a mainstream car fuel over here for decades. My old station wagon ran it for years, until i restored it and took the tank out. I'd rather have the boot space. I can squeeze a couple of longboards in there without the gas tank in the way.

Back in the day it was a good cheap alternative fuel. Now though, it's more than 1/2 the price of petrol and the efficiency has gone way down. Something to do with fuel excise and no manufacturing standards. So it has all the usual fuel taxes applied to it that it didn't have before, and the fuel company can water it down with lower energy component gasses.

Back when I was using it, on long road trips it made sense to buy enough LPG in the city to get to a country location (or just switch to petrol) and tank up in a little one horse town a few hours out. The fuel co. would only send one truck out that far, to fill LPG and Propane tanks. Propane has to be pure propane so that's what the LPG tank got, as well. Made a huge difference in mileage running pure propane.

That motorbike propane conversion in the OP, the bike would need to be liquid cooled for it to work. The converter needs to be kept hot to stop the gas freezing. Maybe an Enfield would get away with it, considering the tiny dribble of fuel they need to run??

[gizzo]

God that takes me back to when l was 17 and just passed my forklift test, the first forklift They put me on was a petrol engine converted to gas because of fumes inside the factory petrol a no go, but in saying that it ran sweet as a nut on gas and seemed very economical it’s been around for a long time.

Same here. Our forklift was 9 tons and powered by a propane converted 350 SBC, for fitting tyres onto 200 ton dump trucks 

[NVDucati]

[snip]

That motorbike propane conversion in the OP, the bike would need to be liquid cooled for it to work. The converter needs to be kept hot to stop the gas freezing. ...

I converted a 0360 Lycoming engine in an airship to propane. I can't recall the brand of gear we used but they offered a converter with a heat jacket designed for the hot water, as you describe. We ran a little exhaust through it. I think we took the exhaust from the #2 header through the converter and out via the #4 header. The hardest part was coming up with enough techno sounding jargon to get it past the FAA. Worked just fine.

[AzCal Retred]

I'm with Gizzo, the Bullet likely wouldn't need a vaporizer, it's pretty frugal. Air temp & air flow around the tank determine fuel pressure, fuel removed from the tank is the cooling function, just like a refrigerant system. As long as you aren't out in 30F weather you'd likely have plenty of tank pressure. The bigger the tank, the greater the tank surface area, so the less net cooling effect the engine fuel draw has.

A hack would be the easiest way. A 60 or 100 pound tank would fit OK. Propane is highly detonition resistant, so high compression is not a problem for you. 60 pounds of LPG will take you a long way on a Bullet, maybe 600-800 miles. Adding a LPG pressure tank (tanks?) is problematic to a conventional motorcycle, they are bulky compared to an unpressurized gas tank. IF the tank was a structural member, that would help. But that's a lot more work than tucking an LPG tank into a sidehack.

[gizzo]

I converted a 0360 Lycoming engine in an airship to propane. I can't recall the brand of gear we used but they offered a converter with a heat jacket designed for the hot water, as you describe. We ran a little exhaust through it. I think we took the exhaust from the #2 header through the converter and out via the #4 header. The hardest part was coming up with enough techno sounding jargon to get it past the FAA. Worked just fine.

Ah, you're a genius. I thought about some exhaust heat while I was typing but thought maybe something corrosive in the exhaust gas might ruin the alloy. IDK why. The aluminium exhausts on my skiboat are holding up fine and they're ancient....

back in the day when we were running LPG, we could get the converter to freeze solid after a few minutes of cruising along at 100mph+. Then you'd need to switch to petrol until the converter thawed out. 

[Carl Fenn]

I do recall many years back they used them in taxis they had then stored in the boot large gas bottle, l also recall the heat exchanger on the VW god l just loved that air cooled technology brilliant heater system that warmed up very quick.

[NVDucati]

I'm with Gizzo, the Bullet likely wouldn't need a vaporizer, it's pretty frugal. Air temp & air flow around the tank determine fuel pressure, fuel removed from the tank is the cooling function, just like a refrigerant system. As long as you aren't out in 30F weather you'd likely have plenty of tank pressure. The bigger the tank, the greater the tank surface area, so the less net cooling effect the engine fuel draw has.

A hack would be the easiest way. A 60 or 100 pound tank would fit OK. Propane is highly detonition resistant, so high compression is not a problem for you. 60 pounds of LPG will take you a long way on a Bullet, maybe 600-800 miles. Adding a LPG pressure tank (tanks?) is problematic to a conventional motorcycle, they are bulky compared to an unpressurized gas tank. IF the tank was a structural member, that would help. But that's a lot more work than tucking an LPG tank into a sidehack.

I like the way you think. I'd make a couple of points. The tank pressure does matter but that controls volume of gas through the hose. The vaporizer (converter), regulates pressure, pre-heats and vaporizes the liquid for efficiency.
If you face a very cold day you can add pressure by adding nitrogen gas. That is what we do for hot air balloons on mountain flights. When you look at a hot air balloon burner you will notice that they have coil tubing in the flame path. The liquid propane travels through those coils before reaching the exit nozzles. That is what generates the big heat and nearly invisible flame. For high altitude flights(above 15 thousand), we use different size fuel jets (thanks Caterpillar) in one of the burners.
Last comment, if one were to take up a propane motorcycle project, the balloon companies have aluminum DOT approved tanks and stainless certified hoses/fittings, etc.

[zimmemr]

Just to add a little fuel to the fire, Propane outboard motors are strating to gain some serious traction. Tohatsu, who once made some pretty neat small bore motorcycles claims their 5 hp model can run 5 hours at wot on an 11 pound bottle.

[AzCal Retred]

...and THAT"S why I like it here, there's always someone that knows something and will share. 
Just this one company alone provides several tanks in several flavors of metal. These are rated in gallons, many tanks are rated in pounds, go figure. Propane is about 4 pounds per gallon, gasoline about 6. A Bullet should see about 50 MPG on propane, running a decent compression of maybe 9.5-10:1. Cameron's 11 gallon tank is 12.25" x 36" (82 lbs.), the 20 gallon is 14.3"x43"(135 lbs.). A 500 to 1000 mile range is doable, fueling up weekly or bi-weekly on a trip isn't a significant hassle.
I think the "tank as frame member" concept works easiest in a scooter layout, maybe at least a 250-350cc powerplant to push the weight around. You should be able to hide it in the floorboard area pretty easily. Maybe these creepy new "Adventure Scooters" would be a good model, the dead area where the engine is supposed to be is now just used for storage...like a Navi pushing a 5 gallon propane bottle?

https://cameronballoons.com/products/hot-air-balloons/tanksfuel

PS - on the outboard - fuel spills are a complete non-event with propane. Petro-sheen on the water is a really big deal for Game & Fish, Park Service & others. Also, that outboard that gets used 12 hours a year will likely start again next year, and the year after...

[NVDucati]

A 500 to 1000 mile range is doable, fueling up weekly or bi-weekly on a trip isn't a significant hassle.

And AzCal, if you are doing some moto-camping with your propane project ... you will only need a valve and drill a few strategic holes in your luggage rack to have a wicked good camp stove. 

[AzCal Retred]

Nice conversion.

Bikestaff LPG (GLP) Scooter Conversion
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vO9FdgFRWaM

https://gazeo.com/automotive/vehicles/LPG-powered-scooters-can-it-get-any-cheaper,article,7686.html

[richard211]

There are a few manufactures that sell LPG conversion kits for 100 -200cc motorbike engine in India. They do use a LPG mixer / vaporizer, but do not have engine coolant running through them. Its a very basic install / conversion to do. I did work on a few Ford Falcons ( Barra E-Gas) while I was in Australia those cars were a dedicated LPG only vehicle usually taxis. The engine oil always were clean even after 5000-7000km, looked brand new, no sludge in the engines either.

 There was however a Land Rover Discovery Series 2 (face lifted version), that did have a persistent misfire issue. It had a fully electronic sequential LPG injection system and had a control module that triggered a bank of ''Injectors'' which actually were solenoid valves for each cylinder which were then connected to nozzles that were pushed through, holes drilled in the respective intake runner. The misfire was cause due to excessive wear on exhaust valve seats and the exhaust valves. The exhaust valve was basically chewing through the valve seat (valve recession). 

 Something mostly overlooked and to be cautious about is the engine oil, there are specific engine oils for engine that run LPG.

[Carl Fenn]

As l recall my forklift ran 24 shifts for years without a hitch running from a standard propane bottle, was a smooth running engine with no smoke.

[gizzo]

Fuel prices here today, LPG (gas) vs ethanol free 91. Why would you bother? The gas isn't worth it anymore.

I haven't looked but I wouldn't be surprised if the dedicated LPG Barra Falcon's value has taken a nosedive. At least it'd be possible retrofit a petrol system from a cheapy at the damaged car auctions.

[GlennF]

I remember those new fangled gas convertor thingamees that were the hip in-thing back when I was just a wee whipper snapper ....

https://teara.govt.nz/files/21458-na-h.mp4

https://blog.maryevans.com/2014/01/gas-bags-on-wheels-a-solution-to-petrol-shortages-during-ww1.html

https://www.resilience.org/stories/2010-01-20/wood-gas-vehicles-firewood-fuel-tank/

[richard211]

Fuel prices here today, LPG (gas) vs ethanol free 91. Why would you bother? The gas isn't worth it anymore.

I haven't looked but I wouldn't be surprised if the dedicated LPG Barra Falcon's value has taken a nosedive. At least it'd be possible retrofit a petrol system from a cheapy at the damaged car auctions.

I am not sure if converting the LPG Barra to EFI would be worth the effort because one would need to source all the EFI parts, ECU, engine wiring harness, intake manifold, injectors etc. Everything is plug and play, the only major problem one could face is the PATS (anti theft / immobilizer) trying to get the BCM and ECU work reliably, they are a bit temperamental and has always been an issue with the BA falcons. Something to take into consideration is the LPG models did not have traction control, while some of the petrol models did.

[AzCal Retred]

One thing LPG has going for it is a method of meeting emissions compliance. Not a big issue in California on motorcycles yet, but it's a nice tool in the box. Once you are on the road, it's unlikely you'll be checked again - bigger fish to fry, right? Another plus is no contamination in your fuel, no water, no dirt. a good reason is for "occasional vehicle" application, the carb isn't sitting around getting full of varnish and white rust. LPG needs to be about 30% cheaper than gasoline just to break even, so "saving money" isn't the real motivator.

However, E-bay has 35 liter I.B. Bullet fuel tanks, over 9 gallons, for under $250, so that alone gets you maybe 600-750 miles. A sidehack could easily accommodate a 15 gallon fuel tank, likely yielding a near 1000 mile (1600 km)  range. So if emissions isn't a thing, and you drain the carb/run dry if used intermittently, you are already there.

[richard211]

There is manufacturer, that has a kit that can be adapted for the bullet 350, the gas tank only holds 3kg of LPG fuel and the gas tank itself weighs 4.5kg. I suspect one would need at least 2 LPG tanks to get some sort of usable range. The kit is supposed to include a box that's supposed to resemble a small pannier box . I guess for the cheap prices they ask we cant be too picky. Pretty much everything is contained in the side box. Interestingly one manufacturer has received proper certifications too.

[richard211]

Came across this video where a guy is using an off the shelf propane conversion kit with a carburetor intended for generators (like the honda GX390).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cf4_73UmvNE&ab_channel=LindoTech

[AzCal Retred]

@ #28: 3 Kg. is 6.6 pounds of LPG, so about 1.5 gallons. Best guess so far is maybe 50 MPG on LPG in a Bullet, so as you say a single cannister is likely a 55-80 mile proposition. Nice compact design though. Lots of mopeds & scooters seem to have only a 1.5 gallon fuel capacity also. Do you have the link to these tanks?

The conversions seem easily doable. The bullet carb is a slide type and most conversions seem to end up on butterfly valved carbs, I dunno if it would make a difference. Jacking up the compression restores some of the lost ungawa, so maybe a better option on the 350 than the 500?

[richard211]

I am not sure  about a conversion kit being done on a bullet 500 but its been done on the 350 bullets (even UCE models). I think the butterfly valve carburetor would have better air control since it can be set so its fully shut at the very minimum. On the iron barrel conversion I did on my AVl crankcase, I used a UCE 350 29mm CV  butterfly carb and made a flange that would allow the CV carb to bolt on to the IB head.
 On the late model IB engines they had an adaptor plate that was sandwiched between the carb and the head called an emission plate and conveniently it has a vacuum port and an adjustment screw, so if the LPG / Propane line was connected to that port you could use it to fine tune the amount of gas going into the engine.

 

[NVDucati]

Once considered "exotica", composite spun, light weight tanks are available at very moderate prices.
This is just one brand: https://vikingcylinders.com/

[Richard230]

One thing LPG has going for it is a method of meeting emissions compliance. Not a big issue in California on motorcycles yet, but it's a nice tool in the box. Once you are on the road, it's unlikely you'll be checked again - bigger fish to fry, right? Another plus is no contamination in your fuel, no water, no dirt. a good reason is for "occasional vehicle" application, the carb isn't sitting around getting full of varnish and white rust. LPG needs to be about 30% cheaper than gasoline just to break even, so "saving money" isn't the real motivator.

However, E-bay has 35 liter I.B. Bullet fuel tanks, over 9 gallons, for under $250, so that alone gets you maybe 600-750 miles. A sidehack could easily accommodate a 15 gallon fuel tank, likely yielding a near 1000 mile (1600 km)  range. So if emissions isn't a thing, and you drain the carb/run dry if used intermittently, you are already there.

Speaking of bigger fish to fry: I read last month that the California Air Resources Board will be requiring all big-rig tractor-trailer trucks to be tested for emissions twice a year. And that includes out-of-state and trucks traveling from Mexico and Canada. If they fail to comply or make excessive emissions, they will be heavily fined. The trucks will be tested via sniffers placed along freeway truck routes and automatic license plate readers will be used to identify the offending trucks. When that regulation goes into effect, that is not going to make trucking companies very happy, especially independent owner-operator out-of-state truckers.

[AzCal Retred]

Trials. That would be a nice application, immune to attitude or shaking, always clean, no stalling from temp related mixing concerns. A 3 KG bottle would run all day easily. The regular tank could be replaced by a foam pad, you could really put on some "Body English" in the technical sections!

[AzCal Retred]

@ #33: Too bad it won't apply to those diesel pickemup-driving eejits "rolling coal"...too much to ask, I suppose.

[Richard230]

@ #33: Too bad it won't apply to those diesel pickemup-driving eejits "rolling coal"...too much to ask, I suppose.

I agree. My guess is that most of them couldn't afford to pay the big fines that CA wants to levy on interstate trucks, so why bother? Gotta get the money to fund the agency, so why bother with small fry? 

[AzCal Retred]

R211: Thanks for the Indian links! Looks like a well travelled path for them.


NVDucati: Viking FRP cylinders -look very good, visible level thru tank wall.

https://vikingcylinders.com/shop/commercial/31-lb-flt/
$250 USD, 28" x 12", 7.4 gallons of LPG

https://vikingcylinders.com/shop/lifestyle/22-lb-vapor/
$150: 23" x 12", 5.2 gallons of LPG

And Walmart:
https://www.walmart.com/ip/Manchester-Tank-Equip-1220-13-Vertical-Cylinder-Propane-Tank-40-Lb/190271040
Steel, $172: 34" x 15", 10 gallons of LPG

https://www.walmart.com/ip/Dr-Shrink-DS-LWTANK-22-Lightweight-Composite-Propane-Tank/823174951?athbdg=L1700
Composite, $175, ? x ?, 5.2 gallons of LPG

[richard211]

I wonder if the tanks used for air suspension could be adapted for this purpose. The tanks are available in various sizes and are much cheaper too.
 
 There is this one youtube video (couple of years ago) of a guy having an LPG tank being made but it supposed to replace the rear mudguard. Its not the most elegant looking tank but it would do the job.

https://youtu.be/KNO52sfcPrQ

[Arschloch]

@ #33: Too bad it won't apply to those diesel pickemup-driving eejits "rolling coal"...too much to ask, I suppose.

Just write a letter to Greta and her Swedish friends, they love to donate other peoples property. How about a free electric VW pick-up for everyone who enters the state with an "coal rolling" stinker?

[NVDucati]

...
 
 There is this one youtube video (couple of years ago) of a guy having an LPG tank being made but it supposed to replace the rear mudguard. Its not the most elegant looking tank but it would do the job.

https://youtu.be/KNO52sfcPrQ

Yikes! I couldn't look away (even though it is long).
Without regard to the goal, the outcome of brute force combined with a craftsman is pretty damn impressive.

[AzCal Retred]

@ #39: My solution is cheaper. After the first offense, weld a piece of 4" flex line to the exhaust tip and route it directly into the cab. Problem solved! The mentally 12 year old owner gets to fully enjoy the "full fruits" of their labour! We'll need to be wearing masks anyway for Covid 19 Rev. #XX, so those should minimize the incidence of Black Lung disease. Black Lung is pretty macho sounding, maybe it'll start a trend...we can only hope.

VW makes an electric pickup? You may be ahead of the curve a bit...
https://www.sunrise-vw.com/volkswagen-considers-making-an-all-electric-pick-up-truck/
The world really needs a truck with 250-300 mile range and a 12 hour recharge time...can't get enough!
Maybe the 800V Porsche superchargers will come into play. Then if you never leave the San Francisco or LA area you'd be able to recharge in 90 minutes...?


@ #40: Really nice Bourdon tube! You can tell tank pressure by the height of the tail light as the fender straightens out. I think R211's other "pannier" fuel tanks are more workable, but I certainly agree that the level of ingenuity & craftsmanship, especially in light of the work environment, are commendable. I AM surprised that they didn't just replicate the main fuel tank in heavy gage for propane. An existing 20 pound bottle with some internal stiffeners & a frame "U" shaped cut out might have done the trick and yielded more useful volume. "In for a penny..."

[Richard230]

Well I am sure that everyone in Texas is waiting with bated breath for Tesla's "pickup truck" to hit the market. Just the thing to haul around gravel and landscaping equipment. 

[GlennF]

The world really needs a truck with 250-300 mile range and a 12 hour recharge time...can't get enough!

Commercial fleets will probably use slide out racks of quick change battery packs.

Not overly practical for individual owners with just one truck though.

Electric Formulae one cars doing rapid battery change outs during pit stops will make for interesting viewing ...  " Michael Schumacher has opted to pull in for a quick battery change while the safety car is out, this could be controversial ...  "

[AzCal Retred]

Somehow the idea of a manned battery change out station, sitting there at +$200/hour even if you don't have any customers, waiting to sell $30 worth of electricity possibly to the next passer-by doesn't seem like a winner to me. An unmanned, automated station seems also a disaster in the making. It's just really hard to squirt 300 miles worth of electrical energy into a chemical battery in a reasonable length of time. Batteries are just too stupid-big & heavy for a high work load application. Liquid fuels made from electrolyzed H2 and waste carbon don't require rebuilding society's transportation framework, have great range & already have infrastructure & a trained used base. Hybrids demonstrably work well. EV's around town for folks unconcerned with 6-12 hour charge times work well. Battery tech blocks actual heavy duty use because the energy density just isn't there.

[Carl Fenn]

The charge rate on EVs is high you can’t charge them from home without conversion, the new public charges will have no attendants you pay by card or phone, it will become expensive in view of electricity price rises a lot more than petrol.

[AzCal Retred]

CF brought up an excellent point. "Peak Rates" are assumed to be between maybe 7AM to 10PM on weekdays, lucky, lucky for the guy selling power. Off peak rates can be 3 cents to 15 cents, peak rates can be from 15 cents up to 75 cents according to my PG&E bills.
Megawatt price equivalent is $30-$150 off peak, $150 - $750 peak. If your jalopy sucks down 300 amps at 240 volts for 1 hour, that's a usage of 72 KWH or 0.072 MWHr. At weekday Peak, say 2PM the rate cost could easily be $750/MWHr, so that's a $54 charge, or possibly a $150/MWHr rate, about $11, and at 3AM the same power probably costs about $4. The real fun is how charging at home increases total usage, raising the tier rate you are charged in, kinda nullifying a big chunk of the whole "money savings EV" strategy. It's great to be the guys writing the rules they get to collect money under. The only way out for the homeowner is the "electric carport" strategy, where your own PV panels charge your own EV, not adding to the total MW purchased from the Utility. At that point, you might as well throw on a few more panels & drive down your house power usage too.

[Richard230]

Speaking of solar panels, my daughter was buttonholed at Costco by a Sunrun rep who got her to agree to receiving a proposal to have solar panels installed on her roof. But after the guy came out and inspected her attic, he said that he wasn't happy with the looks of the framing, even though she just had a new metal roof installed on her home and the framing reinforced. Sunrun now says that they won't install the solar panels that they contracted for unless she retains a structural engineer to inspect the roof and framing and submits a report to them verifying that the roof will support the solar panels. That would likely cost big bucks, assuming that she could even find an engineer to perform the inspection and prepare a report, so she is now looking around for another solar vendor, of which there are plenty to choose from in the SF Bay Area, that hopefully is not going to require an engineering report. Nothing is ever easy around here. 

[Karl Childers]

 ^^^  Would her panels be independent of the grid? Seems I heard somewhere the bay area power provider won't allow a meter spin back system which is common some areas. She should look into that for starters as buy back will allow for whole house use without the need for storage batteries.

[AzCal Retred]

The original roof had a "Per Sq. Ft." engineering calc otherwise it wouldn't have been approved. The weight of a metal roof is a known quantity, especially by the roofing company, the reinforcement lends credence to the idea that "someone" has done some cyphering regarding PSF loading. I'd ask the roofers for their numbers. Panels & attachment hardware are a known quantity also, generally around 1 pound PSF added for panels & mounts. The S-5 company referenced below seems to have metal roof panel mount tech covered.

Plan "B" is put a ramada/carport/sunshade up and site some panels there to get hooked up to the grid. The metal carport folks certainly have engineering specs. Once you have PV & a mystic "solar" electric meter, it's not black magic to add to the mix. Lots of companies make PV attachment/rack systems. IronRidge is one, they have nice hardware and a very nice design aid.

https://www.ironridge.com/

https://s-5.com/products/solar-racking-systems/

@ #48: She's in PG&E territory, better than SCE, they even know about PHEV applications. The new "smart" meters are just digital wattmeters with a set of robust (maybe...) internal contacts that can remotely switch your home off...?!?...so Pretty Cool Deal for the Utility. They "talk" to the PG&E mothership and keep track of how much power, what direction it's going & when it happens. This enables PG&E to have less field personnel (Meter Readers, Troublemen). If you get and "Olde Fashioned" electromechanical meter they have to pay someone to read it monthly, so the Corporate bean counters frown on old tech. The new meters let PG&E wargame customers to the max with their "Tier (tears? ) System".

[Richard230]

The house and lot is too small for a new carport. It has an enclosed garage. The solar panel installers would have to install the correct switch, as well as performing the wiring and installing backup batteries. The system could not be activated until it is approved by PG&E and her current electric meter would have to be replaced with a "smart meter". I think the estimated cost is something around $50K - about what the new metal roof cost. The whole idea is still up in the air.

[Karl Childers]

The house and lot is too small for a new carport. It has an enclosed garage. The solar panel installers would have to install the correct switch, as well as performing the wiring and installing backup batteries. The system could not be activated until it is approved by PG&E and her current electric meter would have to be replaced with a "smart meter". I think the estimated cost is something around $50K - about what the new metal roof cost. The whole idea is still up in the air.

I see, I was not aware of the smart meter used in your area. If it is a gable roof with a crawl space chances are the simple addition of collar ties and some diagonal bracing on the rafters could upgrade the roof load capacity substantially. The whole engineer thing sounds like they are just covering their butts. Solar panels don't add that much weight to the roof of a well built house, chances are the roof as is could easily handle them.

[AzCal Retred]

@ #50: Backup batteries? Sounds like a much more complex "Smartwall" system, the costs are spiraling upwards....
The meter swap is just to accommodate PG&E's remote comm/control tech, standard stuff. Like KC says, best to use the Utility as a "battery". A $300 5KW gas generator and a 5 gallon can will keep house fans, refrigerator/freezer, TV, computer & lights on. Mine runs the toaster oven and at least one small burner on the electric range. A generator is way more bang for the buck. Unless you are looking at selling ancilliary VAR support/boost/buck to PG&E as well as Net Metering, I'd skip the Powerwall. A 240V double ended cable from the genset into a nearby "30A Dryer receptacle" and open up the house main and you are clear of the grid & watching "Days of our Lives" sipping diet coke with ice. A propane E-Start genset is the hot ticket, but a bit more cash up front - still waaay cheaper than a Powerwall & associated electrickery.
Panels need to be mounted on County Code approved structures, so the numbers from the previous roofers are useful. Somebody signed off on the reinforcing, right? The 600V DC disconnect is integral to most Grid-tie inverters, so no issues there. A dedicated marked 240 Panel circuit breaker is usually good enough.

Here's a plan "C":
https://www.solarpowerworldonline.com/2020/02/sunflares-latest-thin-film-solar-module-fits-between-seams-of-metal-roof/
Thin-film solar panel manufacturer Sunflare has released a new module that nestles in between seams of a metal standing-seam roof — the PowerFit 20.
https://globalsolar.com/powerflex-flexible-solar-panels

Info:
https://www.roofingcalc.com/solar-pv-metal-roofing-guide/

[Richard230]

You are right, AzCal Retired. I offered my family the portable generator that I bought a few years ago and never used. But my son-in-law doesn't want it. He is a real hard-head and is not happy unless he is doing everything the hard way. He is also a dreamer and keeps trying to talk his neighbors into creating a local neighborhood solar electrical grid. But so far has received nothing but  .

The other problem is that their home was built 65 years ago and looks more like a do-it-yourself project under the new roof, especially the electrical system, which has a sub-panel hiding in the laundry closet, as an example. It is only a three bedroom, two bath home. But its saving grace is that it has a large garage that currently is being used to contain six running motorcycles, two that don't run, and a lot of other junk, tools and unfinished projects. But at least the new roof looks nice. I will attach a photo that I took last year from a point halfway up the rocky slope behind their home. (Which BTW, might be a good place for solar panels if they could be drilled into the 45 degree rock slope.)

[zimmemr]

l. A 240V double ended cable from the genset into a nearby "30A Dryer receptacle" and open up the house main and you are clear of the grid & watching "Days of our Lives" sipping diet coke with ice.

I suspect you're only kidding here, at least I certainly hope so.  I've seen two lineman electrocuted by backfeeds because people plugged their generators into dryer outlets and never bothered to disconnect at the main. And have heard of many more near misses caused by the same issue.

Typically accidents like these occur during major outages, when the guys are tired and the usual safety protocols aren't as strictly enforced as they should be, and very often they involve non-union line outfits: "storm chasers" where the guys aren't as well trained as they should be.

BTW if we found a back fed line, our normal procedure was to cut the wire at the pole and not energize that customer until the situation was resolved to our satisfaction, which almost always involved building inspectors, fines and a lot of paperwork.

Bottom line, invest in either a manual or magnetic transfer switch before hooking up a generator.

[AzCal Retred]

@ #53: Isolating into your own community microgrid takes a lot more than magical thinking. Usually you need to start with a viable power source that's cheaper than the Utility. There is a community in the "outback" of Nevada that has their own communal 100KW vanadium redox flow battery and field of PV to support it, but it was even bigger money to have the Utility run a line 20 miles out to them & site a transformer.

Young Son needs to get a small 1-2 KW PV rack sited in the back yard (or that hillside...?), get it approved for the de rigueur "up to 10KW" limit & tied in, then mebbe add on the rooftop standing seam mount panels hisself. Microinverters are a great option for piecemeal installs. Newberry Springs might have been a better locale for the DIY PV home...less nosy neighbors & Utility drones.

Judging from the picture there's some brush clearing that really needs to happen first. The wildfire situation isn't improving, but the metal roof is a good idea. There is available now intumescent paint, which insulates when fire comes up against it, protecting the wood. Eaves are especially vulnerable. I vividly recall the 4 foot diameter Santa Ana windblown tumbling balls of burning debris from the Roseville fire fetching up against the sides of houses.   Maybe a perimeter catch fence would help. Needs before niceties...

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Firetect-WT-102-1-gal-White-Flat-Latex-Intumescent-Fireproofing-Flame-Retardant-Paint-Coating-for-Wood-102W-1/307899625

https://a1solarstore.com/inverters/micro-inverters.html

[Richard230]

Here is the latest proposals from three firms that he contacted:

Vendor       Panels             Inverter         Battery                    Cost·       
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------     
SunRun       13x380W = 4.94kW   SolarEdge       2xTesla = 12kW,26kWh        $51k     

SimplySolar  14x380W = 5.32kW   SolarEdge       0                           $37k   
               "                   "            1xLG-Chem = 14kW,16kWh      $54k       

SunPower     12@425W = 5.1kW    Microinverters  2xSunVault = 13.6kW,26kWh   $44k

Sorry about the formatting. My son-in-law thinks he will go with SunPower and their microinverters. He says for another $2K they will upgrade the current 100 amp service to 200 amps.

[AzCal Retred]

What's the goal here? If this is a "forever home" it's all good I guess. If he's going to turn it in a couple years, ask around the real estate folks if PV is 1:1 or better RoR when selling. $50K on time payments to eliminate $2500/year in electric bills for the next couple of years doesn't seem a bargain to me. It's a HUGE drawback (i.e. very expensive) if he can't do the work as an owner/builder, it's not rocket science. There are lots of PV classes around. It's pretty easy to dig a huge "borrowed money" hole, not so easy to climb back out.
Here's a fun one: https://solarliving.org/

The plus side to microinverters is that they are modular and work very well for incremental additions. The downside is that you need to keep tabs on ALL of them. A lightning strike can kill of damage some or all of them, but the survivors still give something. Many microinverters can comm with your PC thru suitable hardware, a hobby in itself.

String inverters are up to 1000VDC input now, keeping wire size & DC currents down. Most can be monitored thru a front display, so no "PC Gaming" is really necessary. A lightning strike can kill of damage them too, so lightening arrestors are a good idea.

Have him take the Solar Living classes. It's a nice place for the wife & kids for a weekend too, it'll give him "skin in the game".

[mrunderhill1975a]

#57
My thoughts exactly, how long until lower energy costs equal the capital cost? What is the payback time?

[Richard230]

#57
My thoughts exactly, how long until lower energy costs equal the capital cost? What is the payback time?

Apparently it is the thought that counts.  It is not something that I would do, but on the other hand they do get a lot of sun in their location and they recently refinanced their mortgage and are saving about $1,500 a month, compared with what they had been paying. Plus, after paying $50K for a new roof, I guess solar panels don't seem all that expensive. Finally, he works in the high-tech industry doing coding and programming and gets a pretty decent salary.  Clearly they are attached to the home and have no plans to move - just like me. 

One more fun fact, my son-in-law recently received a new computer from his company to use at home. It has 32 core processors and a cooling system with a radiator. I didn't even know such a thing existed for home usage. 

[gizzo]

https://www.revzilla.com/common-tread/video-building-a-motorcycle-that-runs-on-swamp-gas

This would make you think about where your fuel comes from.

[AzCal Retred]

A certain "Someone" that is still working needs to hire a Civil Engineer and generate some roof loading numbers for County P&Z. Or get the roofers to cough up the specs they used to add the metal roof. Standing seam metal roofing is da' bomb for panel installation.

Payback time depends on how habitable your home is kept, solar insolation and the ambient temp. Oh, and kids/pets/neighbors flagging the doors... Reasonable AC use (68-74F degrees, NOT 80F, thank you very much - I hate sweating myself to sleep...) to maintain shirtsleeve comfort levels and water a few bean plants can run $800 to $1000 a month in June - October in PG&E territory. At the 10KW to 14KW levels of panel, he'll generate a surplus and never see a bill. The surplus is paid back at a truly miserly rate by PG&E. Panels run near a dollar a watt, WAAAY down from where I bought mine at. A 5KW grid-tie inverter is now only $1200 - $1800 bucks, less than I paid for my 3.8KW unit in the wayback. A pair of string inverters is probably better than a single ginormous 15KW unit. Build in some slack, right? Wait - do I hear the riffling of a checkbook?

[Arschloch]

This is all boring stuff, I'm waiting for someone to put finally the water powered bike into production, ......

https://youtu.be/wqvncnLh_0c

[AzCal Retred]

Too bad he didn't drop the magnesium in the fuel tank full of water & run the tank vent to the carb.

That IS the best pressure cooker design I've ever seen though...