[Paul W]

I don’t see why you think I need lecturing on the subject but if I’d said that my brakes didn’t work properly, or Villiers products were in any way sub standard, I might agree. But the brakes do work, and very well, using the original Indian made shoes, to the point where either wheel can be made to lock. They didn’t, when I first bought the bike, but they needed servicing and setting up properly.

Villiers are one of the longest standing U.K. suppliers of bike parts and they really do know what they are doing….not that I think that other suppliers don’t. But my own experience over the last half century of working on bikes has shown me that most expensive doesn’t always mean best.

If I can improve my brakes even further by spending just £21.95 all inclusive with Villiers Services to have new linings fitted, there’s no no sense in spending more than twice that amount for a similar outcome. The only disadvantage would be a short wait for the two way post and for the linings to be fitted, rather than direct supply of ready made shoes from stock.

[Willbrunei]

Thanks guys - so i get the feeling that standard and undrilled is best? That would make sense. I read Tim NZ's post on the matter and will order new trunions and link rod to set it up as RE intended.

I will order the UK brake shoes and for me, they are doubly expensive as I have to factor in postage. But, at the end of the day, what choice do I have? I cannot even get the discount by returning the old shoes as the freight back to th UK would wipe out the discount. Hey ho.

For me expense is relative - with an illegal bottle of poor quality wine here at 35 USD a pop, the cost of the shoes seems positively charitable in comparison!! 

Again, I am hugely enjoying working on this bike - its rugged simplicity is something I can get my head around and it provides a strong sense of achievement being able to deal with the various issues. Thanks for the support in this everyone.

Cheers,
Will

[Willbrunei]

found this on youtube - looks like the job is literally childs play!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UEuizDxnZcs

[Paul W]

That’s a useful video for someone who hasn’t done the job before.

I mentioned in my previous post that many of these brakes seem badly set up. Although in this video the position of the long brake arm looks correct, the smaller brake arm is incorrectly located on its splines. The angle between the arm and the link needs to be set to less than 90 degrees so that there’s maximum leverage on it and it just comes up to that angle, or close to it, as the shoes come into contact with the drum. That one looks to be sitting well beyond 90 degrees even before the brake is applied.

It needs the nut and washer taking off and then it can be moved around by a couple of splines to a more advantageous angle. The connecting link then needs to be unwound to give a longer length so it all fits back together properly.

Most people understand that to get maximum mechanical advantage on a spanner it needs to be held at 90 degrees to their arm, yet I’ve seen so many Bullets where the front brake isn’t set up properly and also heard a lot of owners saying the front brake is poor. Did some bikes came out of the factory badly set, or put together like that by the original dealer?

[AzCal Retred]

Here's the Villiers website for general perusement. Sounds like they are arcing in the shoes too. Likely they aren't covering out-of-country postage, though. I have spare used shoes, so no "down time penalty" for me. With 2-way shipping they'd be about the same total cost as H's, but that woven non asbestos might be the bomb for off-road. The mesh configuration should be fairly "water indifferent". I agree with Villiers about "Many modern linings are too hard", that's been my experience with OEM Bullet shoes. In the local mountains they heat up and lose grip fairly rapidly, The H's provide much more bite when hot. The aftermarket EBC "Green Stuff" shoes I ran on my work car were the same way, still providing needed speed retardation even when hot to a much higher degree than OEM compounds.

https://villiersservices.co.uk/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=66&products_id=146

" This service can cater for any shape or size brake-shoe. Whether it’s for a bike, car, van, trailer or even tractor. Many modern linings are too hard, so we have a range of materials to suit all applications, including woven non asbestos which does not need to get hot to work. All you need to do is remove the shoes from the back plate, drop them in a jiffy bag or box, write down what they fit, what you are going to use them for. I.e. trials, road, scramble etc. "

" For any motorcycle shoes we charge £21.95 a pair inclusive of vat and postage is free! Please email or call for a quote on car, trailer, truck shoes or industrial clutches. We re-Line the shoes to their original width, if you require under or oversize linings, please let us know on your note with the shoes.

To measure and exact size, all you need to do is measure the inside diameter of the hub and the outside diameter of the shoes on the back plate (excluding the current linings) write those sizes down with your letter and we will do the rest. But this is not absolutely necessary if you are not confident doing that."

[Willbrunei]

Thanks
The villiers site looks good.
Maybe after this shoe change, I can send the old ones off for relining with them.

BTW - I have put the brake back together but on looking at the parts list, I seem to be missing a spacer - labelled number 9 on the Hitchcocks exploded diagram for the 500 sixty - five. It seems to fit over the axle and against the felt washer. I have searched the garage floor but I am pretty sure it was not there whaen I took the brake apart.

Anyone know if this is a problem or should I not ride like this. I'm guessing it helps support the brake plate and keeps the felt washer in place but dont want to take uneccessary chances.

Thanks.

[AzCal Retred]

The wheel bearings seat on the hub recesses and the large axle stepped center. The center step spaces the inner races, the outer races nest in the hub. Tap the bearings in using the outer races, trapping the axle between the bearings inside the hub. The wheel "rings" when the outer races are seated. Make sure the axle turns freely. If not, tap it left & right a very small amount until it does. The speedo spacer & brake plate spacer are vital, the tin pans for the felts less so. These wheels clamp to the forks, so wheel bearing spacing is taken care of by the axle stepped center, not a separate center hub spacer like Japanese bikes use with their removable axles.

On-Line Parts guide:
https://www.hitchcocksmotorcycles.com/partsbook/92/2003-sixty-5

You NEED these two:
PART No. 110334 ; COLLAR, SPEEDO DRIVE ; £2.20
PART No. 142239 ; DISTANCE COLLAR, FRONT COVER PLATE ; £2.00

These mostly keep out rocks/grit - with sealed bearings you can live without felts & "retainers".
PART No. 110970 ; RETAINER, FRONT HUB ; Currently Not Available
PART No. 110293 ; RETAINER, FRONT HUB ; £1.90

[Willbrunei]

Thanks for the quick reply.

Also - seek and ye shall find:https://forum.classicmotorworks.com/index.php?topic=21887.0

The photo on there makes it all clear. I did have the spacer all along. Just that it sat inside the felt washer as it should and looked more like a washer itself. Looking at the parts book exploded diagram, the part number 9 looks more like a bush. This was what was freaking me out.

Glad I dont have to take it all apart again today.

[AzCal Retred]

Buen dia mi amigo!

Hitchcock's online guide says that "Part #9" is the "front brake distance collar 142239"; you need this. This is shown on the "Front Brake" drawing.

That dishpan bit you are looking at is the " Retainer, Front Hub 110970" which "retains" the felt I guess. This is shown on their "Front Hub" drawing.

Different drawings, numbered different bits. The part number is your best guide, as is the online PDF's.

Good hunting - ACR -

[Willbrunei]

Thanks AZC
Yep it seems i do  have both.

When I took thr felt washer off to grease the bearings, the dished washer retainer was underneath. check.

The stepped spacer Part 142239 or part 9 was on the top of the felt washer. check.

But, due to the thickness of the felt, it sits partly in the felt so looks like a washer or shim on the surface of the felt. This is what confused me, as if you examine the spacer in reality - or in the catalogue photo- it is relatively flat in form with a distinct step. On the parts diagram it is shown as a relativley long tube shaped piece.

So i was looking for this "tube" but I had it all along, just that the drawing was misleading.

As always, thanks for taking the time to help clarify.

[Willbrunei]

Hey - i made this pdf as a picture is worth a thousand words, as they say

[AzCal Retred]

Very nice work! This will come in handy soon here I'm certain. It's not immediately obvious how the bits fit together.

[ddavidv]

Late to the party, but...
My bike came with the drilled trunion or whatever it is on the front brake. My gosh, what a massive PITA to deal with. Yeah, it makes it easier in a way but it also made getting it right ultimately more difficult trying to understand how it all worked. I would never recommend it.

Mine brakes just fine for a 1950s/1960s motorcycle. I think some people expect way too much from an outdated design. It only took me 6 tries to get it set up properly but once I did I couldn't complain.

[Willbrunei]

Yep. I agree - new trunions and link arm on order from Mr H as we speak. Plus uk lined shoes.

I don't expect miracles, but it will be nice to know it is properly set up.

[Willbrunei]

So, to return to the original post. I have now fitted lovely new red braided ht lead. New rubber boots on the coil ht and lt connections plus a liberal smear of dielectric grease on all boots.

Now, will it run in the wet? Time will tell.