[axman88]

H2 is dead.

Almost as dead as this thread, buried as it is under pages of arguing about topics not even tangentially related to E-bikes.

Which seems regrettable to me, since it's unlikely that any future visitor will have the patience to wade through 27 pages of unrelated arguments, to find the very few posts actually about electric bicycles.

As every politician knows, the best way to kill an initiative is not to argue against it, but to bury it under unrelated BS, to fillibuster.

Maybe those folks wanting to read about electric bicycles will be better served by searching through these threads on hydrogen fuel:
https://forum.classicmotorworks.com/index.php?topic=6305.msg71398#msg71398
https://forum.classicmotorworks.com/index.php?topic=30906.msg369987#msg369987
https://forum.classicmotorworks.com/index.php?topic=32249.msg393660#msg393660

When I started this thread, I had high hopes that folks would share my interest in discussing the details of what is becoming a mature technology.  Bicycles are THE most energy efficient method of transportation, often said to be the most efficient machine man has ever created.  Brushless DC motors are very efficient in their own right, robust and versatile, with a high power to weight ratio.  Together, they create what is in my view, a very interesting transportation solution. 

Look at a representative sample of what is available in mountainbike motors in 2021:

Mfg              Model                 Torque (N-M)   Weight (kg)
Bosch    Performance Line CX    85               2.79
Brose    Drive S Mag             90               2.98
FAZUA    Ride 50 Evation      55              1.92
SACHS    RS                          110        3.66
Shimano    EP8                            85              2.57
Specialized  SL 1.1                     35              1.95
TQ             HPR 120 S              120              3.90
Yamaha   PW-X2                     80              3.06

https://ebike-mtb.com/en/the-best-emtb-motor-review/

[viczena]

It is a thread in "Campfire Talk", so topics might go sideways.

Nevertheless, the most interesting E-Bike at the moment seems to be the VARG by starkfuture.com. 80hp and 938 Nm torque. Though it still lacks the possibility for fast charging.

[Arschloch]

You canot breakthrough the laws of physics. H2 is dead.

Now is my time for an indirect argument (as simple math and the laws of physics obviously does not do the trick): If H2 is such a good idea, why does everybody leave the sinking ship? Toyota is now the only respectable company, that did not delete H2. They invested a lot, and got subsidies from the legislation. Its just a matter of time, until also Toyota leaves. As soon as they can do it without loosing face.

Can't wait to see the face saving. Just wonder if Toyota H2 man choose the mail box or the katana. Doubt there's anyone left willing to take their blame anymore.

https://www.bbc.com/news/business-57760993

H2 is not dead though, Atoms don't die neither law of physics.

I find certainly interesting that while covid-19 is considered god given, Germany is still in search of the responsible folks that caused the flooding last year.

https://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/german-police-conduct-raids-connection-floods-82194301

[viczena]

del

[Karl Childers]

In contrary, subsidies are rising. The EU throws out an insane amount of money. But not even Tesla wanted their subsidies. They refused to take their 1bill $ subsidy for the battery factory.

 Anecdotal, can you give me something to back these claims? Do you function at a high level of government or industry to be privy to ALL of this information? I've yet to see anyone turn down a 1bill subsidy when they can quietly squander it on other things. Also the EU is just that, a union. You seem to be painting with a pretty broad brush here.

[viczena]

I am not the one to google links, cut&paste  and paint them blue. You can do that yourself, if you are really interested. Not difficult.

For that I just needed 10 sec: https://www.cnbc.com/2021/11/26/tesla-decides-against-state-aid-for-german-battery-plant-as-musk-opposes-subsidies.html

[Karl Childers]

OK, so batteries but no mention of hydrogen, what's the connection to hydrogen that you say everyone is running away from?

[viczena]

These are all seen as alternative energies and the subsidies are from the same source. But even as the money is sprinkled like water, nobody really wants them.

In the case of H2: Mercedes canceled, VW canceled, Scania canceled, BMW canceled.

Another 10sec search: https://www.cliffordchance.com/content/dam/cliffordchance/briefings/2021/04/focus-on-hydrogen-eu-funding-programmes-for-energy-projects.pdf

You should be able to do this by yourself.

[viczena]

Another quick find: City realises HYDROGEN costs 6X more than EV, cancels order . Because of the price of operation.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zSeTHOCHryc

[Arschloch]

The cost per se isn't a issue if you have customers to pass it on, now who would want to pay 6 times the bus ticket for the "privilege" of being transported in an H2 bus. Add some comfortable seats, good AC and some entertainment system to the bus and you are more likely to get some customers willing to pay a premium for the ride.

[viczena]

i would prefer to be transported in a self driving BEV car, for 1/4 of the cost.

[Arschloch]

i would prefer to be transported in a self driving BEV car, for 1/4 of the cost.

I would prefer to transport myself in a rwd sporty coupé. Individual mobility makes it possible, a bus is always a fishy compromise on someone.

I want to see that BEV capable of doing it at 1/4 of the cost. 

[Richard230]

 Breaking up is hard to do.

[Karl Childers]

[viczena]

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