Author Topic: Electronic clutches  (Read 3132 times)

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Richard230

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on: June 12, 2024, 02:13:20 pm
Here is the latest electronic gadget on some new Honda, BMW and KTM motorcycles. Automated shifting devices like the Honda Dual Clutch is apparently moving on to simpler and lighter (and no doubt cheaper) automated clutch systems that will help you shift and operate (or forget?) the clutch when riding your motorcycle. No doubt this would make a perfect upgrade for your Iron Barrel.  ;D
https://www.motorcycle.com/bikes/features/question-of-the-day-coming-through-in-a-clutch-44603191
« Last Edit: June 12, 2024, 02:28:09 pm by Richard230 »
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AzCal Retred

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Reply #1 on: June 12, 2024, 02:36:50 pm
An answer to a question nobody asked. If you can't figure out manual clutch operation, get a scooter. Or a Buick Park Avenue. Or take a taxi, Uber, bus, train or commuter flights. A hydraulic clutch is bad (good?) enough. Or just get a picture of a motorcycle.
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Richard230

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Reply #2 on: June 12, 2024, 03:20:21 pm
An answer to a question nobody asked. If you can't figure out manual clutch operation, get a scooter. Or a Buick Park Avenue. Or take a taxi, Uber, bus, train or commuter flights. A hydraulic clutch is bad (good?) enough. Or just get a picture of a motorcycle.

How about an interactive motorcycle riding game that you can play in your home on your smart phone?
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Turbofurball

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Reply #3 on: June 13, 2024, 12:57:10 pm
My other half would love this (the gearbox, not the mobile game), she's a demon on the track but doesn't like having to use a clutch on the road, especially when riding in the city.  It's worth noting that she has tiny hands, though.

I'd quite like it for off road, it'd make changing gear while stood up a lot easier.


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axman88

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Reply #5 on: June 13, 2024, 03:39:11 pm
The trouble with using all electronic, computerized solutions, is that this inevitably leads to putting all the computational electronics into one very expensive, very UN-repairable module, that needs to be replaced if rebooting can't fix it.

I can cite examples of this all day long.  The net effect is things are a LOT more expensive to repair.  I think this also makes it a lot easier for the repair industry to abuse their position.  If your furnace / refrigerator / vehicle repair guy ever told you "It's the BOARD", chances are good you've already fallen victim to this.  Those boards bring good money for somebody, both when they sell a replacement to you, and again when they sell your "bad" takeout on Ebay.

The stakes are a lot higher than they were when you were buying a couple replacement vacuum tubes or a limit switch that you didn't need.


Richard230

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Reply #6 on: June 13, 2024, 09:56:35 pm
The trouble with using all electronic, computerized solutions, is that this inevitably leads to putting all the computational electronics into one very expensive, very UN-repairable module, that needs to be replaced if rebooting can't fix it.

I can cite examples of this all day long.  The net effect is things are a LOT more expensive to repair.  I think this also makes it a lot easier for the repair industry to abuse their position.  If your furnace / refrigerator / vehicle repair guy ever told you "It's the BOARD", chances are good you've already fallen victim to this.  Those boards bring good money for somebody, both when they sell a replacement to you, and again when they sell your "bad" takeout on Ebay.

The stakes are a lot higher than they were when you were buying a couple replacement vacuum tubes or a limit switch that you didn't need.

Almost every new kitchen appliance that my daughter has bought over the past couple of years, such as her oven, dishwasher and washing machine has stopped working due to its "board" failing and new ones are never in stock.  They have to be special ordered from the Chinese company that made them at a considerable fraction of the original cost of the appliance, while you wait a month or two for it to arrive. Meanwhile, the Kenmore dishwasher that I bought 40 years ago and operates using a rotary timer still works just fine, as do the Kenmore washer and dryer that are 25 years old. I hope I never have to replace any of my home appliances with the new cell phone app-controlled crap that is all the rage now.
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AzCal Retred

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Reply #7 on: June 13, 2024, 11:20:33 pm
There is a world of industrial general-purpose palm-sized PLC's with lots of expansion I/O & analog boards. They come in a variety of voltages; 12, 24 & 48 VDC & 24, 120, 240 VAC.They'll do everything from run your car to home HVAC to appliances. They have timers, clocks, sequencers, etc. already built in. With a bit of study you can free yourself from the tyranny of "the chip". The PROGRAM is the thing. That's just the operating logic of the device. Virtually all of these devices have downloadable ladder-logic software you can play with & upload from your home computer. You can't make your own mechanical clockwork timer or sequencer, but you don't have to anymore. It's just a different hobby.
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axman88

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Reply #8 on: June 14, 2024, 12:54:29 am
There is a world of industrial general-purpose palm-sized PLC's with lots of expansion I/O & analog boards. They come in a variety of voltages; 12, 24 & 48 VDC & 24, 120, 240 VAC.They'll do everything from run your car to home HVAC to appliances. They have timers, clocks, sequencers, etc. already built in. With a bit of study you can free yourself from the tyranny of "the chip". The PROGRAM is the thing. That's just the operating logic of the device. Virtually all of these devices have downloadable ladder-logic software you can play with & upload from your home computer. You can't make your own mechanical clockwork timer or sequencer, but you don't have to anymore. It's just a different hobby.
A "bit of study"?

I ran into an issue with a PLC on the indexer on our dielectric sealer last September.  This gadget, built in '06, uses a Mitsubishi PLC to query a couple of Hall effect sensors and operate a servo drive supplying a linear motor.  It basically pulls roll stock a preset distance through the machine, something that 50 years ago, we might have implemented with a long stroke pneumatic cylinder and a couple of mechanical bolts to serve as end stops.

The PLC had "lost it's brains", nobody could say exactly why.  Mitsubishi had stopped supporting that entire series of PLC a decade ago, so I could only buy replacements NOS.  The software to TALK to the discontinued PLC was not available, although there were rumors online that one could buy a copy via a dubious source in Russia, for $1000.  When the manufacturer's rep showed up, after a month of calling, it was clear that they had outsourced the programming and didn't seem to understand the ladder logic for the equipment they were there to fix.  The guy got irritated and told me, "The more questions you ask, the LONGER this is going to take!".

In the end, they told us that the PLC both I/O modules and the servo drive, plus "probably" the linear servo would all need to be replaced.  We agreed to pay them $15.5K and shipped the whole gadget off to North Carolina, at Thanksgiving, to be returned in "Around 3 months".  Seven months later and we are still waiting.

That indexer machine is far simpler than any modern washing machine.  Three sensors, a two wire trigger signal interface to the main machine, and a servo drive, takes $15.5K and 7+ months to implement.  That's not freedom!


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Reply #9 on: June 14, 2024, 02:56:14 am
We had an opportunity at my old steam plant in Laughlin to replace the back-up reciprocating instrument air compressors dead 1960's era electronic sequencer & unloader. The factory wanted $300K for a turn-key project. We took the manuals, picked the plant operators brains, used the elementaries & wiring diagrams and an off-the-shelf $1500 Allen Bradley PLC and expansion module. The pressures & temps were 4/20mA signals, the controls were discrete inputs. 3 weeks and about $30K total parts & labor (after Management added "extras") we were done. The completed Sequencer Program ladder logic hard copy print out would apply to ANY PLC system, you just use their software plus your "roadmap" & make it happen.

Obsolete software is an obstacle only if you don't know the process equipment & requirements. The process tells you the logic & I/O needed. After that you just make the "new stuff" do the job. It ain't rocket science, and it needs to stay in-house. Farming out work like this just puts you right back where you started, everything becomes a black box understood only by "others" and you are screwed if it dies.   

In the 80's I worked with Jim Mickey at Etiwanda Power Station. Jim was a self taught Old School "8th grade graduate" Instrument Technician that had created the entire steam plant electronic distributed controls system with off-the-shelf bits for about $250K in parts vs. $5M and many months offline for a 3rd party contract effort. He read manufacturer's instruction pamphlets for fun and he'd been doing plant controls instrumentation for years. It's all just tinker toys and working process knowledge.

Once the pressure, temp & distance signals are converted to digital I/O signals by the proper interface modules the rest is just figuring out what to do and when to do it. Modern PLCs have sequencers, counters, totalizers, etc. built in and simulation software to train/learn on. The "hard" job is to find a qualified, interested guy(s) to do it in-house. It does take concentration and an understanding of the process. The computer I/O & programming you'll learn if you are interested.
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axman88

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Reply #10 on: June 14, 2024, 05:27:23 am
We had an opportunity at my old steam plant in Laughlin to replace the back-up reciprocating instrument air compressors dead 1960's era electronic sequencer & unloader. The factory wanted $300K for a turn-key project. We took the manuals, picked the plant operators brains, used the elementaries & wiring diagrams and an off-the-shelf $1500 Allen Bradley PLC and expansion module. The pressures & temps were 4/20mA signals, the controls were discrete inputs. 3 weeks and about $30K total parts & labor (after Management added "extras") we were done. The completed Sequencer Program ladder logic hard copy print out would apply to ANY PLC system, you just use their software plus your "roadmap" & make it happen.

Obsolete software is an obstacle only if you don't know the process equipment & requirements. The process tells you the logic & I/O needed. After that you just make the "new stuff" do the job. It ain't rocket science, and it needs to stay in-house. Farming out work like this just puts you right back where you started, everything becomes a black box understood only by "others" and you are screwed if it dies.   

In the 80's I worked with Jim Mickey at Etiwanda Power Station. Jim was a self taught Old School "8th grade graduate" Instrument Technician that had created the entire steam plant electronic distributed controls system with off-the-shelf bits for about $250K in parts vs. $5M and many months offline for a 3rd party contract effort. He read manufacturer's instruction pamphlets for fun and he'd been doing plant controls instrumentation for years. It's all just tinker toys and working process knowledge.

Once the pressure, temp & distance signals are converted to digital I/O signals by the proper interface modules the rest is just figuring out what to do and when to do it. Modern PLCs have sequencers, counters, totalizers, etc. built in and simulation software to train/learn on. The "hard" job is to find a qualified, interested guy(s) to do it in-house. It does take concentration and an understanding of the process. The computer I/O & programming you'll learn if you are interested.
It sure sounded to me like you were suggesting a $1500 PLC, and three weeks of effort as an alternative to a $240 furnace main board.

Now I'm hearing about avoiding $300K factory solutions, and $5 million dollar consulting company proposals.  That's quite a redirect, but you're right, it's pretty much the same "sell you on the glitzy features, and don't read the fine print until it's too late"  concept as brought me in here.

I'm right in sync with the idea of DIY, but, there's just not enough time in anyone's life to convert all their late model appliances to documented contrivances that they have hand built.  Something like a PLC may make sense for a high value, unique application, but for all the ordinary stuff my vote is for maintenance and continuation of the old tech, from the before the "only lasts the warantee period" era.

There's plenty of this stuff still around, made of real metal, with relay logic, and NOS parts are appear monthly on Ebay, at very reasonable prices, and offered up by the sons and granddaughters of the old business owners and technicians who squirreled the stuff away on shelves decades ago.  In my opinion, they didn't really figure out how to reliably make planned obsolescence work, down to the component level until the 1990s.  In the 70s and 80s, many companies were still building the best product they could.

Even if you did rebuild your appliance with a Raspberry Pi for a brain at considerable effort, you're still stuck with the poor quality of the components and systems.  My american made fridge has lasted 34 years, and was probably 20 years old when I got it, free, with the purchase of my building.  Runs long and strong on R-22.  Who gets even a decade from a modern fridge, pumping R134a with a malasian compressor?


AzCal Retred

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Reply #11 on: June 14, 2024, 08:23:23 am
There is a world of industrial general-purpose palm-sized PLC's with lots of expansion I/O & analog boards.
It sure sounded to me like you were suggesting a $1500 PLC, and three weeks of effort as an alternative to a $240 furnace main board.

Nope. The point was that used programmable PLC controllers are readily available from $30 to $200 that can replicate a variety of electromechanical logic functions. The examples were to illustrate the disparity in cost in a "You do or They do" situation. If you can't scavenge the original controlling parts of your appliance and the basic hardware is still functional, there are options for keeping it running. Your example of an OEM $240 furnace control board (a "cost-effective" factory decision) that has become unobtainable and "bricks" a $10,000 HVAC system was to the point. As far as HVAC, it's pretty amazing how simplified you can make a factory control system if you just need functionality. Lennox was the worst offender, often you could cut away a 5-gallon bucket of "factory improvements" with a couple cheap relays & a thermal timer from Johnstone. But if you need more sophistication, readily available programmable PLC controllers are available.

You'll always pay with either time or money, or just learn to live without it. My garage has a refrigerator and a freezer that are both resurrectees, brought back to life with Amazon-sourced generic bits. Makes grocery shopping time MUCH easier.
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Reply #12 on: June 14, 2024, 10:07:11 am
I have a Bosch fridge, due to external influences the controller board got fried.  I got another for 50€.  It wasn't a big deal, and took about 15 minutes to fit.  It uses a fraction of the electricity the old one used, and has saved a lot of money over the last 5 years as a result.

Fuel injection, with it's associated circuitry, has shown that reliable electronics are possible and also capable of outperforming analogue technology (I sold my Triumph 955i with 85,000 miles on the clock, it was still running perfectly with the original ECU - how many older bikes get that far without a carb rebuild?).  It needs to be appropriately applied, of course, but there's no reason a computer controlled semi-automatic motorbike gearbox can't be equally reliable.  How many times have you been stranded because of a bent gear lever, snapped clutch cable, or problems with selector forks or barrels?


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Reply #13 on: June 14, 2024, 04:00:22 pm
Tech beyond a certain level is basically unsupportable by the user. I'm always amused by the dystopian future movies where the hero/heroine scavenges old electronics and plugs them into other devices. The pre-unit Bullet & and UCE, maybe the current RE OHC crop too, are getting close to the end of what the "Owner-Mechanic" can deal with. The high-tech Honda NC700 often shows up on Craigslist for cheap for that reason. Even the venerable Goldwing 120cc & later machines too. Planned obsolescence is a great sales builder.
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axman88

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Reply #14 on: June 14, 2024, 06:11:18 pm
Tech beyond a certain level is basically unsupportable by the user. I'm always amused by the dystopian future movies where the hero/heroine scavenges old electronics and plugs them into other devices.
Consider that the current trend is to require authentication of one module by another, such that you can't even successfully use scrap yard parts from the same make and model without having the required handshake blessed by the corporate software.  And there's the fact that using the always-on datalink, the manufacturer can disable features or the entire machine, from the air conditioned comfort of their office across the world.  It's easy to see what Max was so Mad about.

Of course, in the science fiction, the tech geeks are always ahead of the corporate bad guys.  Personally, I think some of the current confusion about what technology is and does stems from an understanding of physics that comes out of growing up with Lego and Minecraft as your sandbox.

It needs to be appropriately applied, of course, but there's no reason a computer controlled semi-automatic motorbike gearbox can't be equally reliable.  How many times have you been stranded because of a bent gear lever, snapped clutch cable, or problems with selector forks or barrels?

Consider that the formula for predicting reliability takes the form

R = (1-F1) * (1-F2) * (1-F3) * (1-F4) …   with multiplicative factors for each and every component.

and it's easy to see why a machine with 20 components is orders of magnitude more reliable than one with 10,000.

I've certainly experienced a broken clutch cable.  It delayed me long enough to pull the hunk of stranded wire and the vicegrips I keep on my machine out of the saddlebag.  What would I have to pull out to fix a shift by wire system on the side of the road?

As for the mechanical parts in the gear train, it's not like these are eliminated, they just become controlled by actuators, and electronic components in a chain of buffer circuits, logic circuits, and all the intermediate wiring, connectors, etc.   There are very good reasons why the electronically controlled system can't possibly be as reliable and certainly far less repairable and much more expensive.