[AzCal Retred]

Yuppers - I'm sure not seeing why not. The Kohler & Briggs folks both made hydraulic valved pushrod motors. Shorter & probably lighter than the OHC equivalent. Adequate power if you aren't chasing trophies. They already have in-house 6-speed gearboxes. A frame made of something other than cast iron, some light wheels and you'd have a nice trail bike. I really don't see why every RE machine has to push 400 pounds. If Honda could roll their 1976 XL250 out the door at 300 pounds and 24 HP, what's wrong 50 years later? You could even do a 4 valve head using forked pushrods, just put one adjuster on one valve. After initial set, you'd likely never touch it again. Half of an Interceptor motor is 325cc, a good size for trail use.

[GlennF]

The other issue with RE is the unnecessarily high seat height for a road bike, especially in the 350 range. My XJ900 had a seat 30 mm lower than the current 350 Enfields.

[him a layin]

it was not my intention to bash on RE. if not for my health issues, i'd be out happily riding pokey every time the sun shines., or maybe move up to a conti GT. since their new 450 is bringing them into the 21st century, it wouldn't surprise me at all if they come out with something in this category in a couple of years. too late for me. , unless i buy that chinese POS and it dies soon

[AzCal Retred]

More "constructive criticism" than bashing. If you are penning a clean-sheet design, use the available materials & information. I'm not seeing any reason at all RE isn't using available tech and making a 300 pound, 6 speed, 20 HP, 200/250/325 dual purpose bike except that there's more markup in the luxury/specialty lines. Road-hugging weight may have its place, but it ain't offroad. The air cooled J-model engine in a modern frame (i.e. light with a 31" seat height) might be a reasonable starting point. That engine certainly doesn't weigh 200 pounds all by itself. The brakes, frame , suspension and wheel loading demands drop with overall weight. At 20 HP a J-350 would live happily in an old XR200 frame. The new near 400 pound 452 Himalayan is almost 100 pounds heavier than an old DRZ 400 Suzuki that has 32ish rear wheel HP. The 350cc J-models modest 20 ponies in a 300 pound bike would be fun. Why we don't have one already is the question.

[axman88]

I'm not seeing any reason at all RE isn't using available tech and making a 300 pound, 6 speed, 20 HP, 200/250/325 dual purpose bike  Why we don't have one already is the question.

Perhaps because RE is building machines for India?  For as popular as they have become elsewhere, they still sell ~13 out of 14 motorcycles into the India marketplace.

One could see why they would want to avoid going head to head with Hero, Honda, Bajaj, TVS, Yamaha, and the rest in the "mainstream" Indian moto market.  RE calls their products "middleweights", likely in recognition of the fact that the west is riding much much larger displacement machines, but in their market, they are the heavyweights.

Machines larger than 500ccs are for sale, but very few are actually sold.  True "large" motorcycles, by western standards represent a fraction of 1%.  The category doesn't even make the list:  https://www.financialexpress.com/business/express-mobility-indias-mid-size-motorcycle-market-to-continue-to-attract-new-players-and-models-3176830/

Look at the list of best selling motorcycles in India:   https://www.acko.com/two-wheeler-insurance/best-selling-bikes-in-india/
Of the top 15 sellers, only three are larger than 200 ccs, and two of those are REs.   I think RE very much wants to stay out of the lightweight sector.

As for the dual purpose or offroad market, demand seems modest.  None of the top 15 sellers are marketed as having offroad capability.  Going by RE's numbers from a fairly recently published monthly breakdown:   https://www.drivespark.com/two-wheelers/2023/royal-enfield-sales-breakup-june-2023-038653.html
   Various 350s   62,368 sold  (92.4%)
   Various 650s     1,872         (2.8%)
   Himalayan        3,255         (4.8%)
   total                67,495

I don't think these numbers include export sales.  From a financial standpoint, it's hard to see the corporate strategists getting very excited about expanding further into areas that are already underperforming.

I haven't been to India.  Some pictures I've seen do suggest there are areas where an offroad machine would be just what is needed.  But, it is also true that India has 3 times the population of the USA, in 1/3 the land area.  At any rate, they don't seem to want that particular type of machine.

[AzCal Retred]

Bike Dekho shows the J-350 at $4700, 20 HP & 430 pounds. The new 400 (Bajaj)Triumph is $5000, 40 HP & 380 pounds. (Bajaj)KTM 200 Duke is $4200, 25 HP and 310 pounds. The Bajaj Pulsar 250 is $3700, 24 HP and 360 pounds. Riders with more spare time & money will force the performance issue. More power, less weight, & cheaper is always a market driver. If you must have max frugality, there is a world of 100cc - 160cc machines out there.

Honda and the other Big Four members ALL offer a complete product line. Their racing involvement has improved the tech available to the rider. Tech bleeds over through and across the line. I can't imagine that Indian riders will long be happy with 2nd class tech & materials used expressly to improve the balance sheet. 50 years on from 1975, there's no reason that RE air-cooled machines across the board are 50 pounds heavier than they need to be. If Bajaj decides to build a 250/400 "standard", RE will need to step up. I can't wait to see the R.E. 452 Dakar effort, THAT will be a "come to Jesus" moment for R.E. engineering.

Harley has created a good negative example of how NOT to run your motorcycle company. $25K - $30K 550 pound 150 HP trail bikes & E-bikes aren't exactly flying off of the shelves. Craigslist has PAGES full of near new HD V-twins for sale. HD could have diversified their market but chose to double down on the high mark-up market. Hopefully R.E. won't choose the same dead end.

[AzCal Retred]

Here is an example of an India built machine that is in current production that RE could have emulated with their clean sheet efforts. Hero's 4 valve 200cc DP/Trail machine has essentially the same HP as the J350. Heros Xpulse 200 is just a nice 19 HP, 5 speed, fuel efficient machine. A bit on the chunky side at 360 pounds wet, but still 40-50 pounds under the RE J-350 efforts. The 1983 XL200 had the same HP and was a petite 280 lbs. wet, 80 pounds under even the Hero. It's 2024, 40 years on. E-start adds maybe 20 pounds. Where does the rest of the pork come from? That 1983 turn-signal equipped Honda isn't exactly an exercise in chromoly and carbon fiber. 25 years on, the 2008 Honda CRF230 dual purpose bike added e-start and still weighed just 280 pounds. Engineering is supposed to get more clever as time goes by, so....?
<< https://www.motorcyclespecs.co.za/model/Honda/honda_xl200r_83.html >>

https://www.heromotocorp.com/en-in/motorcycles/performance/xpulse-200-4v.html
The Hero XPulse 200 4V is powered by a 199.6 cc air-cooled engine which produces 19.17 PS @ 8500 rpm of power (vs. 20.4 PS J-model). It has a fuel tank of 13 L and a claimed mileage of 51.59 kmpl (25% better than the J-model @41.55 kmpl) The Hero XPulse 200 4V starts at Rs 1.46 and goes up to Rs 1.53 Lakh ($1800 ; 80% of a J-350) (ex-showroom, Delhi). The J-model Hunter is 180 Kg, vs, the 160 Kg. for the Xpulse 200.

[GlennF]

HD could have diversified their market but chose to double down on the high mark-up market.

They also doubled down on a boomer retirement age group who are rapidly disappearing by either dying off or just getting far too old to bother with anything harder to manage than a mobility scooter.

[him a layin]

Here is an example of an India built machine

interesting enough for me to google up their dealre locator, which when it asks for state, offers uttarkhand, delhi, goa... looks like they're releasing a 400, too!

[AzCal Retred]

Hero is apparently an India-based branch of Honda. An older Honda CRF230 dual purpose bike should be available in the $2K - $2.5K range.

[axman88]

I can't imagine that Indian riders will long be happy with 2nd class tech & materials used expressly to improve the balance sheet. 50 years on from 1975, there's no reason that RE air-cooled machines across the board are 50 pounds heavier than they need to be. If Bajaj decides to build a 250/400 "standard", RE will need to step up. I can't wait to see the R.E. 452 Dakar effort, THAT will be a "come to Jesus" moment for R.E. engineering.

Harley has created a good negative example of how NOT to run your motorcycle company. $25K - $30K 550 pound 150 HP trail bikes & E-bikes aren't exactly flying off of the shelves. Craigslist has PAGES full of near new HD V-twins for sale. HD could have diversified their market but chose to double down on the high mark-up market. Hopefully R.E. won't choose the same dead end.

I can't help but notice that the cases of poor HD sales performance you cite, are all examples of diversification, new products developed to attract new markets.  This has been the case for HD as far back as we care to look, the Pan American, the Livewire, the XG Streets, the V-Rod, the Topper, the Hummer, all created to change up the formula and create or tap new markets, and all poor sales performers.  (Although the XGs were HD's leading sellers in Asia)

HD's biggest selling machine, up until they closed Bawal and discontinued it, was the Iron 883, which until very close to the end, was priced at less than $10K.  I know a couple folks who bought one, both first time bike purchasers.  These new buyers didn't want something new, they wanted a slice of the same thing that folks have wanted in their HD moto for 100 years.

Until the very last quarter, HD has been consistently leading the US market in share.  Everybody's business declined as the USA market contracted.

Despite the narrative, all evidence seems to suggest that HD's mis-steps have been associated with their investments in NEW innovation, attempting to develop new markets and failing, and choosing, or being forced, to withdraw solidly performing existing product.

I agree with you, let's hope that RE does not follow down the same path.

I have to wonder, if HD was UNABLE to update their venerable Evo Sportster engine to meet Euro 5 or BS 6, how does Shineray expect to do it?

[Racer57]

When we were younger schools had shop classes that taught how to work on various items. When we got a few extra dollars, we bought used cars and motorcycles to fix up. This was done to get out of a house that only had 3 tv channels and not much else to do. Then we finally graduated to buying new cars and motorcycles that allowed us to travel all over the US. Now days there is no shop classes to teach basic mechanical skills to allow fixing up used vehicles. Kids now have 1,000 tv channels, computers and phones. They are now mechanically stupid, lazy and don't want to leave mommies basement. Motorcycles sales are a sign of all that.

[AzCal Retred]

+1, squares with what I have seen. A generation of minimal effort princes & princesses, knowledgeable only about what TV determines is valuable - celebrity. I'm betting the Chinese Overlords can fix that though when they get here...

[AzCal Retred]

@ #40: HD could spin-off an LLC division (HRD Cycles?) to sell the same real-world hardware they market offshore. The profits could filter back to the corporate pot. The new line wouldn't be obligated to max out pricing into an aging-out market. A spread of India & China sourced affordable 125/200/250/440 transportation/fun machines and maybe a couple scooters should be easy to come by. The QJ Motors SRV300 & X440 might be a good place to start. Bajaj (or ) could fill in the line with their existing 250cc and below selections. But you'd have to want to grow the market instead of diversifying into lifestyle clothing and waiting for a brand buyout.

As far as a Shineray "sportster", if the venerable air-cooled DR650S can survive the emissions folks, it's unlikely Shineray would have an issue. The real hurdle is getting past the existing thick layer of very lightly used "Estate Sale" HD twins out there.

[axman88]

Hero is apparently an India-based branch of Honda.

30 years ago, yes.  Not so much now, although reading between the lines, it does appear that some export restrictions (USA & Canada) are still in place for Hero.  https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/business/india-business/Hero-Honda-split-terms-finalized/articleshow/7109297.cms

Honda is now represented in India via their wholely owned subsidiary, HMSI, Honda Motorcycle & Scooter India Pvt. Ltd.

Because Honda is an international manufacturer and tries to cover all markets, I think it would be very interesting to compare Honda's top selling motorcycles in various markets, specifically North American vs Europe vs India.  I would anticipate that not only the sales percentages vary, but that one will find different models being offered.  It is pretty hard to find this information, but I think it would give one a very good idea of what a given market desires.

The product mix for India vs. the USA looks VERY different.  They only get a few of the "big (>300cc) machines that we are offered, and we get, it looks like, NONE of the "small" (<250cc) machines that are big sellers there.  I can understand the absence of the Aero 750 and the Rebel 1100, but why no Cub, Grom, or Navi in India?  Even the scooter models look different.
USA   https://powersports.honda.com/motorcycle
India   https://honda2wheelersindia.com/
France   https://moto.honda.fr/motorcycles.html