[zimmemr]

He's more on the fat part of the elbow...

[Jack Straw]

Putting aside, for the moment any issues of technique or equipment, from a purely visual aspect the top riders show us what is simply one of the most stunningly beautiful things a human can do with a machine as partner.

I saw my first motorcycle road race in 1963 at Santa Barbara and I still find the top tier racers mesmerizing to watch.

[zimmemr]

Putting aside, for the moment any issues of technique or equipment, from a purely visual aspect the top riders show us what is simply one of the most stunningly beautiful things a human can do with a machine as partner.

I saw my first motorcycle road race in 1963 at Santa Barbara and I still find the top tier racers mesmerizing to watch.

Amen to that Jack. The first race I ever watched was the Ascot TT, I think it was on the Wide World of Sports, but exactly when I couldn't tell you, maybe 1965 or 66. I do recall Skip Van leeuwen won it. It's been down hill ever since

[Jack Straw]

Yep, Skip was the MAN for TT at Ascot.

[zimmemr]

Yep, Skip was the MAN for TT at Ascot.

That he was my friend, I've never seen a guy get a bike turned the way he could, he'd dig the cases right in, pin it and go.

[Starpeve]

I suppose it depends on the bike you’re riding too. A long slow frame like the old Duke would have a more pronounced front end effect from rear brake than a modern missile.
I learned to favour the rear brake on the old Duke because any squaring of the front tyre made the front end suffer.

[whippers]

Random thoughts from me in no particular order. The poor old rear brake gets a hard time.  There are still plenty of unskilled riders who use it almost exclusively because they are afraid of the front locking up (surely not a concern with modern ABS).

Then there are those who never use it because the front brakes provide almost all of the stopping power.

It is true that the type of bike makes a difference and a longer wheelbase means the rear brake can do more as there is less weight transfer.

However no matter that bike every little bit helps.  When Aaron Gobert first raced in the AMA he passed a lot of people on the brakes because he also used the rear on a 600 super sport (obviously it is doing only a little bit of the work).

When I got back into bikes after a break years ago I bought a Honda RC51 (VTR1000SP2) and that bike had a beautiful front end but wasn’t very quick turning and I found a little bit of rear brake would help tighten the line in some circumstances when you committed to turn in and realised the corner was a bit tighter than you thought.

Now I don’t pick up my RE for another couple of weeks or so but from looking at the spec chart and a test ride I can say it has surprisingly sporty geometry. 24° Rake and 1400mm wheelbase is basically the same as a Yamaha MT07 much shorter and steeper than the 2009 bonneville and actually only a couple of inches longer than a TZ250 racer!

So this means it promotes plenty of weight transfer under braking. The idea behind trail braking is to progressively swap braking forces for cornering forces and this can be helpful on bikes with modest suspension quality because you are compressing front end and changing the forces over that are holding it down rather than braking, letting off the brakes, having the fork rebound (perhaps poorly) the dive again as the cornering loads come on.  This is the reason that experienced smooth riders paradoxically in some cases challenge the suspension less than slower ones who might make more ham fisted inputs that unsettle the bike. Of course on a race track it is necessary because you want to utilise the full traction of the front tyre for lower lap times.  On the road at way less than maximum effort, used well the technique can make the bike rider better in the twisties and hide some suspension inadequacies.

[NVDucati]

Aaron Gobert. Hard on the brakes during the day and hard on the party after dark. Fun guy.
Geez, I just looked him up online. https://www.roadracingworld.com/news/anthony-go-show-gobert-recovering-in-hospital-after-being-attacked-and-beaten-brother-aaron-gobert-says/

[NJ Mike]

I’ve been riding some pretty challenging mountain roads this week through VA, WV and now NC. These are public roads with blind corners up and down mountains. Sometimes there’s a dump truck coming at you half in your lane, or a mid corner patch of gravel, a big rock, or even a branch in your path. And I like to go fast. But there’s no ambulance crew, hospital or even cell reception for miles. So safety is critical. And still I like to go fast. Every corner is different, but being smooth on the brakes and with your throttle is critical. I will regularly drag either the front an/or rear brake until I can see the corner exit, as often it’s blind. As I approach the corner entry, the front brake force eases to off, but sometimes I drag the rear brake to help modulate my lean angle while keeping the throttle partially open to keep slack out of the chain and the engine on the boil so when I roll on the throttle I can get a nice drive to the next corner. It’s an art form, and when I get it right it’s so damn satisfying. The past few days have been very satisfying and my CGT 650 has been a very competent and willing partner. Better suspension and tires are essential though, and the EBC HH pads have been very noticeably better.

[YellowDuck]

For me, the rear brake is for holding the bike in one place while stopped on a slope waiting for a light, and *maybe* braking downhill on a sketchy surface (like sand on asphalt, or loose gravel).

I find discussions about the pros and cons of rear brake use get pretty theoretical pretty fast.  Like someone will explain that "every little bit helps" so you should use the rear.  But then ask that some person how often they even practice full effort, threshold braking from the highest speed at which they ever ride, and you get a blank stare.  In my experience, on anything other that a cruiser the rear will do nothing in an emergency braking situation once forward weight transfer occurs, and in the absence of ABS it might be 1% of riders who can make effective use of the rear for that half second or so at the start of a panic stop.  If you are getting alot of benefit from the rear when you are tryin to stop really hard, then you need to practice with the front more, because you are not using it to full effect.  Get the front howling and squirming while slowing down from 70 mph, then tell me what the rear is for.

Maybe ABS changes the above calculus, but I doubt it, at least not on dry pavement.  Pretty sure an INT650 will lift the rear wheel before front ABS kicks in. 

When it comes to using the rear for performance riding  to stabilize the bike on corner entry etc etc...okay, maybe. But that's above my skill level and I have ridden well enough to win some club-level races.  Not sure what application it really has on the street, where it is unusual to make use of more than 60% of what the bike can on the track, in terms of cornering.

Change my mind.

[Starpeve]

For me, the rear brake is for holding the bike in one place while stopped on a slope waiting for a light, and *maybe* braking downhill on a sketchy surface (like sand on asphalt, or loose gravel).

I find discussions about the pros and cons of rear brake use get pretty theoretical pretty fast.  Like someone will explain that "every little bit helps" so you should use the rear.  But then ask that some person how often they even practice full effort, threshold braking from the highest speed at which they ever ride, and you get a blank stare.  In my experience, on anything other that a cruiser the rear will do nothing in an emergency braking situation once forward weight transfer occurs, and in the absence of ABS it might be 1% of riders who can make effective use of the rear for that half second or so at the start of a panic stop.  If you are getting alot of benefit from the rear when you are tryin to stop really hard, then you need to practice with the front more, because you are not using it to full effect.  Get the front howling and squirming while slowing down from 70 mph, then tell me what the rear is for.

Maybe ABS changes the above calculus, but I doubt it, at least not on dry pavement.  Pretty sure an INT650 will lift the rear wheel before front ABS kicks in. 

When it comes to using the rear for performance riding  to stabilize the bike on corner entry etc etc...okay, maybe. But that's above my skill level and I have ridden well enough to win some club-level races.  Not sure what application it really has on the street, where it is unusual to make use of more than 60% of what the bike can on the track, in terms of cornering.

Change my mind.

Practiced high speed braking- you won’t be lifting your rear anytime soon. The ABS takes that out of the picture. The more you use your rear the better you get at it. BTW the ABS is a good teacher of just how much you’re able to use your rear brake cos you get the stutter when it would have locked. It’s feedback that you never had before ABS, which I admit I wasn’t too keen on to begin with. I rehearse lock - ups every time I pull up on the grass verge outside my house, front and rear.

[zimmemr]

He's more on the fat part of the elbow...

Lately he's been on the fat part of his ass. 

[Jack Straw]

Finally, some resemblance 'tween me and Kenny Roberts........I knew i had it in me

[YellowDuck]

I'm keeping an open mind and you guys are getting close to changing it.  If it stops raining here and I get the new pads on I'll go out and see if I can lift the rear on the INT at anything above 30 mph...

[zimmemr]

[quote author

Change my mind.
[/quote]

There's nothing I can do to change your mind, nor would I try. Everyone has to ride his own bike and feel comfortable doing it. But over the years I was on a first name basis with some pretty fast guys. Mike Baldwin, Gary Nixon, Dave Aldana and Don Castro to name drop the guys I knew best that were good road racers. All of them used their rear brakes as hard as they needed to, as did Kenny Roberts, and would have thought it silly not to.

Speaking from a dirt track background I can tell you that learning to use the rear properly, up to the point of being able to brake slide the bike on pavement, may save your life, or at very least mitigate an impending crash.  And no I'm not suggesting you learn to "lay it down." That idea is one of the dumbest ones I've ever heard.