[Starpeve]

Funny , sorta, but my own decades long version of trail braking was to drag the rear end under rear brakes to squat the bike for the exit.
When I watch the various YouTube tutorials on trail braking I’m a little conflicted. Obviously I’d tweak the front brake, but most of it was rear feathering.

[lucky phil]

Trail braking is braking with the front deep into the corner sometimes up to the apex. Using the rear brake to make the rear squat is sometimes done a fraction before getting on the front brakes. 500GP riders used to use the rear brake to tame those two strokes when accelerating out of corners instead off rolling off the throttle. I only ever use the rear brake to hold the bike at the lights and on the race track to help the bike hold a line exiting the corner. A little rear brake helps the bike hold a line on the corner exit from running wide if that's what its doing. This is only really with bikes with 180-190 rear section tyres though which is all I've ever had on the track. Not an issue with an RE on the road.

Ciao   

[zimmemr]

A lot of flat rack guys use the rear to control wheel spin coming off the turns, Kenny Coolbeth used his so much the disc would be cherry red by the 10th lap. Since he was a 3 time grand national champ it must have worked

 I'm not a road racer, though I have road raced a few times. In my experience a subtle touch of rear brake can help settle the chassis if you get in a little to hot, and as Lucky Phil points out can help tighten up your line on the exit. But on the street I rarely ride hard enough to require much use of either brake, I like to establish a pace, and just roll with it. Once I'm in my zone I find that I can control most events with just a touch of the throttle.

At my age riding the street is about a 6/10's proposition at best. 

[6504me]

Funny , sorta, but my own decades long version of trail braking was to drag the rear end under rear brakes to squat the bike for the exit.
When I watch the various YouTube tutorials on trail braking I’m a little conflicted. Obviously I’d tweak the front brake, but most of it was rear feathering.

Conflicted watching You Tube videos... how can that be?

[NVDucati]

Trail braking is braking with the front deep into the corner sometimes up to the apex. Using the rear brake to make the rear squat is sometimes done a fraction before getting on the front brakes..... Not an issue with an RE on the road.

I use "trail braking" on the road often when I'm hustling along. I agree with @lucky phil. Trail braking is a modification of the rule about completely slowing before you turn-in. The reason that I do it on a semi regular basis is so that I don't have to conjure up from my conscious memory a tactic that I've read about. Road riding can be more challenging than track riding. Heck, at a track you get practice laps and maybe even walk the track. Out on new roads you don't get any of that plus you aren't alone. Nobody has swept the corners and there are certainly no dedicated flagmen standing at the entrance to a corner.  Having trail braking as a part of your "normal" makes one better prepared for the stuff that goes wrong.
   As regards the rear brake; On a race track and on a race bike in a turn, it makes sense. The rear wheel is approaching lift off and has already lost traction. What does not make sense is that the racer's mantra of never using the rear brake has seeped into and saturated the street ride's mind set. It has become a wrong thing to do. Setting aside the race-replica, hyper sports bikes, the advantage of adding some rear brake is that you don't use up as much (or all) of the front suspension travel while braking in a corner or on a bumpy road. That is bad and it matters. Especially if you also want to run a softer and more comfy front end configuration.
   Obviously, the ratios and application vary from bike to bike. Some SV650 riders willfully ingest a touch of air in their non-ABS rear MC. Personally, even with fancy front brake pads I am not in fear of lofting my rear wheel of my RE650 . So apologies for being long winded. Practice trail braking under controlled easy circumstances so that it becomes a part of your riding style and response.   

[zimmemr]

I use "trail braking" on the road often when I'm hustling along. I agree with @lucky phil. Trail braking is a modification of the rule about completely slowing before you turn-in. The reason that I do it on a semi regular basis is so that I don't have to conjure up from my conscious memory a tactic that I've read about. Road riding can be more challenging than track riding. Heck, at a track you get practice laps and maybe even walk the track. Out on new roads you don't get any of that plus you aren't alone. Nobody has swept the corners and there are certainly no dedicated flagmen standing at the entrance to a corner.  Having trail braking as a part of your "normal" makes one better prepared for the stuff that goes wrong.
   As regards the rear brake; On a race track and on a race bike in a turn, it makes sense. The rear wheel is approaching lift off and has already lost traction. What does not make sense is that the racer's mantra of never using the rear brake has seeped into and saturated the street ride's mind set. It has become a wrong thing to do. Setting aside the race-replica, hyper sports bikes, the advantage of adding some rear brake is that you don't use up as much (or all) of the front suspension travel while braking in a corner or on a bumpy road. That is bad and it matters. Especially if you also want to run a softer and more comfy front end configuration.
   Obviously, the ratios and application vary from bike to bike. Some SV650 riders willfully ingest a touch of air in their non-ABS rear MC. Personally, even with fancy front brake pads I am not in fear of lofting my rear wheel of my RE650 . So apologies for being long winded. Practice trail braking under controlled easy circumstances so that it becomes a part of your riding style and response.

+1 Nicely put, especially the bit about not using the rear brake. My thinking is that while the rear brake may only account for 30% of your braking force (or less) why would you willfully give up that 30% especially when being able to use it without thinking about it may someday save your bacon.

[Starpeve]

It’s always worked well for me. Not saying I don’t use any front when trail braking but I like to know much rear I’ve got left if I need it. Never lost my footing on the rear yet doing it, and it does sit the front down a little as required.

[Jack Straw]

OK, this article isn't about trail braking per se but it's fascinating stuff;

https://www.motorsportmagazine.com/articles/motorcycles/motogp/why-motogp-riders-use-the-rear-brake-70-of-every-lap

I don't mind saying these techniques are far beyond my comprehension.  These guys really are aliens.

[zimmemr]

OK, this article isn't about trail braking per se but it's fascinating stuff;

https://www.motorsportmagazine.com/articles/motorcycles/motogp/why-motogp-riders-use-the-rear-brake-70-of-every-lap

I don't mind saying these techniques are far beyond my comprehension.  These guys really are aliens.

Interesting read. I'm amazed at how often they've got their feet of the pegs these days as well, it remind me of AMA road racing in the dark ages. 

[NVDucati]

OK, this article isn't about trail braking per se but it's fascinating stuff;

https://www.motorsportmagazine.com/articles/motorcycles/motogp/why-motogp-riders-use-the-rear-brake-70-of-every-lap

I don't mind saying these techniques are far beyond my comprehension.  These guys really are aliens.

Actually that article is very much about "trail braking" and it is totally within your comprehension.
First off the term "trailing" needs to viewed as "dragging". You will find the early uses of that term in gas ballooning and sailing. Gas balloons from nearly the first flights carried giant coil of heavy rope strapped to the outside of the basket.(Montgolfier brothers October 1783) It is still used today. When coming in for a landing you drop the drag line / trail rope. That orientates the basket as the rope contacts the ground and ground then takes the weight of that heavy rope slowing the forward speed and smoothing the decent rate.
     The analogy pretty much ends there but the notion is that you use the brakes at the initiation of the turn-in and trail off the use as you reach a speed acceptable for the apex. That is a bit of an over simplification but you don't want to waste time by going slow enough for the apex while you are still on your way to the apex.
    But for street riders on okay suspension it is about the balance of suspension travel between the front and back. When you collapse the front forks you also change the rake and the location of the contact patch. It all matters. But again, for the street rider, it is not about all out corner speed. It is about have an extra margin for the occasional surprise we find ... just around the corner. If you practice using trail braking when you are just putting along it will become natural, reduce anxiety and bump up your corner speeds a little.

[Jack Straw]

Sure, I comprehend the intent and results, what I don't get is how any mortal can pull this stuff off at speed in the heat of battle.

I maintain they are aliens.

[NVDucati]

Interesting read. I'm amazed at how often they've got their feet of the pegs these days as well, it remind me of AMA road racing in the dark ages. 

Yeah, The old is new again. I also notice the cool kids are busy reducing lean angles in the last 3 or 4 seasons.

[zimmemr]

Yeah, The old is new again. I also notice the cool kids are busy reducing lean angles in the last 3 or 4 seasons.

Wasn't it King Kenny who said "you gotta keep it on the fat part of the tire." I guess the exception would be Marquez, but like Jack says he's an alien.

[NVDucati]

Wasn't it King Kenny who said "you gotta keep it on the fat part of the tire." I guess the exception would be Marquez, but like Jack says he's an alien.

Even Marquez has reduced his lean angle starting about 3 seasons ago, pre-crash.

[YellowDuck]

Wasn't it King Kenny who said "you gotta keep it on the fat part of the tire." I guess the exception would be Marquez, but like Jack says he's an alien.

He's more on the fat part of the elbow...

[zimmemr]

He's more on the fat part of the elbow...

[Jack Straw]

Putting aside, for the moment any issues of technique or equipment, from a purely visual aspect the top riders show us what is simply one of the most stunningly beautiful things a human can do with a machine as partner.

I saw my first motorcycle road race in 1963 at Santa Barbara and I still find the top tier racers mesmerizing to watch.

[zimmemr]

Putting aside, for the moment any issues of technique or equipment, from a purely visual aspect the top riders show us what is simply one of the most stunningly beautiful things a human can do with a machine as partner.

I saw my first motorcycle road race in 1963 at Santa Barbara and I still find the top tier racers mesmerizing to watch.

Amen to that Jack. The first race I ever watched was the Ascot TT, I think it was on the Wide World of Sports, but exactly when I couldn't tell you, maybe 1965 or 66. I do recall Skip Van leeuwen won it. It's been down hill ever since

[Jack Straw]

Yep, Skip was the MAN for TT at Ascot.

[zimmemr]

Yep, Skip was the MAN for TT at Ascot.

That he was my friend, I've never seen a guy get a bike turned the way he could, he'd dig the cases right in, pin it and go.

[Starpeve]

I suppose it depends on the bike you’re riding too. A long slow frame like the old Duke would have a more pronounced front end effect from rear brake than a modern missile.
I learned to favour the rear brake on the old Duke because any squaring of the front tyre made the front end suffer.

[whippers]

Random thoughts from me in no particular order. The poor old rear brake gets a hard time.  There are still plenty of unskilled riders who use it almost exclusively because they are afraid of the front locking up (surely not a concern with modern ABS).

Then there are those who never use it because the front brakes provide almost all of the stopping power.

It is true that the type of bike makes a difference and a longer wheelbase means the rear brake can do more as there is less weight transfer.

However no matter that bike every little bit helps.  When Aaron Gobert first raced in the AMA he passed a lot of people on the brakes because he also used the rear on a 600 super sport (obviously it is doing only a little bit of the work).

When I got back into bikes after a break years ago I bought a Honda RC51 (VTR1000SP2) and that bike had a beautiful front end but wasn’t very quick turning and I found a little bit of rear brake would help tighten the line in some circumstances when you committed to turn in and realised the corner was a bit tighter than you thought.

Now I don’t pick up my RE for another couple of weeks or so but from looking at the spec chart and a test ride I can say it has surprisingly sporty geometry. 24° Rake and 1400mm wheelbase is basically the same as a Yamaha MT07 much shorter and steeper than the 2009 bonneville and actually only a couple of inches longer than a TZ250 racer!

So this means it promotes plenty of weight transfer under braking. The idea behind trail braking is to progressively swap braking forces for cornering forces and this can be helpful on bikes with modest suspension quality because you are compressing front end and changing the forces over that are holding it down rather than braking, letting off the brakes, having the fork rebound (perhaps poorly) the dive again as the cornering loads come on.  This is the reason that experienced smooth riders paradoxically in some cases challenge the suspension less than slower ones who might make more ham fisted inputs that unsettle the bike. Of course on a race track it is necessary because you want to utilise the full traction of the front tyre for lower lap times.  On the road at way less than maximum effort, used well the technique can make the bike rider better in the twisties and hide some suspension inadequacies.

[NVDucati]

Aaron Gobert. Hard on the brakes during the day and hard on the party after dark. Fun guy.
Geez, I just looked him up online. https://www.roadracingworld.com/news/anthony-go-show-gobert-recovering-in-hospital-after-being-attacked-and-beaten-brother-aaron-gobert-says/

[NJ Mike]

I’ve been riding some pretty challenging mountain roads this week through VA, WV and now NC. These are public roads with blind corners up and down mountains. Sometimes there’s a dump truck coming at you half in your lane, or a mid corner patch of gravel, a big rock, or even a branch in your path. And I like to go fast. But there’s no ambulance crew, hospital or even cell reception for miles. So safety is critical. And still I like to go fast. Every corner is different, but being smooth on the brakes and with your throttle is critical. I will regularly drag either the front an/or rear brake until I can see the corner exit, as often it’s blind. As I approach the corner entry, the front brake force eases to off, but sometimes I drag the rear brake to help modulate my lean angle while keeping the throttle partially open to keep slack out of the chain and the engine on the boil so when I roll on the throttle I can get a nice drive to the next corner. It’s an art form, and when I get it right it’s so damn satisfying. The past few days have been very satisfying and my CGT 650 has been a very competent and willing partner. Better suspension and tires are essential though, and the EBC HH pads have been very noticeably better.

[YellowDuck]

For me, the rear brake is for holding the bike in one place while stopped on a slope waiting for a light, and *maybe* braking downhill on a sketchy surface (like sand on asphalt, or loose gravel).

I find discussions about the pros and cons of rear brake use get pretty theoretical pretty fast.  Like someone will explain that "every little bit helps" so you should use the rear.  But then ask that some person how often they even practice full effort, threshold braking from the highest speed at which they ever ride, and you get a blank stare.  In my experience, on anything other that a cruiser the rear will do nothing in an emergency braking situation once forward weight transfer occurs, and in the absence of ABS it might be 1% of riders who can make effective use of the rear for that half second or so at the start of a panic stop.  If you are getting alot of benefit from the rear when you are tryin to stop really hard, then you need to practice with the front more, because you are not using it to full effect.  Get the front howling and squirming while slowing down from 70 mph, then tell me what the rear is for.

Maybe ABS changes the above calculus, but I doubt it, at least not on dry pavement.  Pretty sure an INT650 will lift the rear wheel before front ABS kicks in. 

When it comes to using the rear for performance riding  to stabilize the bike on corner entry etc etc...okay, maybe. But that's above my skill level and I have ridden well enough to win some club-level races.  Not sure what application it really has on the street, where it is unusual to make use of more than 60% of what the bike can on the track, in terms of cornering.

Change my mind.

[Starpeve]

For me, the rear brake is for holding the bike in one place while stopped on a slope waiting for a light, and *maybe* braking downhill on a sketchy surface (like sand on asphalt, or loose gravel).

I find discussions about the pros and cons of rear brake use get pretty theoretical pretty fast.  Like someone will explain that "every little bit helps" so you should use the rear.  But then ask that some person how often they even practice full effort, threshold braking from the highest speed at which they ever ride, and you get a blank stare.  In my experience, on anything other that a cruiser the rear will do nothing in an emergency braking situation once forward weight transfer occurs, and in the absence of ABS it might be 1% of riders who can make effective use of the rear for that half second or so at the start of a panic stop.  If you are getting alot of benefit from the rear when you are tryin to stop really hard, then you need to practice with the front more, because you are not using it to full effect.  Get the front howling and squirming while slowing down from 70 mph, then tell me what the rear is for.

Maybe ABS changes the above calculus, but I doubt it, at least not on dry pavement.  Pretty sure an INT650 will lift the rear wheel before front ABS kicks in. 

When it comes to using the rear for performance riding  to stabilize the bike on corner entry etc etc...okay, maybe. But that's above my skill level and I have ridden well enough to win some club-level races.  Not sure what application it really has on the street, where it is unusual to make use of more than 60% of what the bike can on the track, in terms of cornering.

Change my mind.

Practiced high speed braking- you won’t be lifting your rear anytime soon. The ABS takes that out of the picture. The more you use your rear the better you get at it. BTW the ABS is a good teacher of just how much you’re able to use your rear brake cos you get the stutter when it would have locked. It’s feedback that you never had before ABS, which I admit I wasn’t too keen on to begin with. I rehearse lock - ups every time I pull up on the grass verge outside my house, front and rear.

[zimmemr]

He's more on the fat part of the elbow...

Lately he's been on the fat part of his ass. 

[Jack Straw]

Finally, some resemblance 'tween me and Kenny Roberts........I knew i had it in me

[YellowDuck]

I'm keeping an open mind and you guys are getting close to changing it.  If it stops raining here and I get the new pads on I'll go out and see if I can lift the rear on the INT at anything above 30 mph...

[zimmemr]

[quote author

Change my mind.
[/quote]

There's nothing I can do to change your mind, nor would I try. Everyone has to ride his own bike and feel comfortable doing it. But over the years I was on a first name basis with some pretty fast guys. Mike Baldwin, Gary Nixon, Dave Aldana and Don Castro to name drop the guys I knew best that were good road racers. All of them used their rear brakes as hard as they needed to, as did Kenny Roberts, and would have thought it silly not to.

Speaking from a dirt track background I can tell you that learning to use the rear properly, up to the point of being able to brake slide the bike on pavement, may save your life, or at very least mitigate an impending crash.  And no I'm not suggesting you learn to "lay it down." That idea is one of the dumbest ones I've ever heard.

[NVDucati]

[quote author

Change my mind.


There's nothing I can do to change your mind, nor would I try. Everyone has to ride his own bike and feel comfortable doing it. But over the years I was on a first name basis with some pretty fast guys. Mike Baldwin, Gary Nixon, Dave Aldana and Don Castro to name drop the guys I knew best that were good road racers. All of them used their rear brakes as hard as they needed to, as did Kenny Roberts, and would have thought it silly not to.
(somewhere on the forum is the discussion about "Slide School")
Speaking from a dirt track background I can tell you that learning to use the rear properly, up to the point of being able to brake slide the bike on pavement, may save your life, or at very least mitigate an impending crash.  And no I'm not suggesting you "lay it down." That'd be plain foolish.

And all those guys that you mention (shamelessly) were also hot dirt bike riders. You will also find that big name car racers in F1, NASCAR and Indy are also likely to have a dirt bike background. Some of that is the natural childhood transition from bicycles. But dirt track racing offers a relative low threshold for regularly hanging out at the boarder of traction and more importantly finding your way back.

[zimmemr]

And all those guys that you mention (shamelessly) were also hot dirt bike riders. You will also find that big name car racers in F1, NASCAR and Indy are also likely to have a dirt bike background. Some of that is the natural childhood transition from bicycles. But dirt track racing offers a relative low threshold for regularly hanging out at the boarder of traction and more importantly finding your way back.

Well to be honest I'm not proud of mentioning their names in this context, but it does go some way towards lending credibility to my argument. 

That aside you're a 100% right. And I'd add that one way to explore the absolute limits of traction and what you can do on a motorcycle and stay upright is to train on minibikes, or more accurately XR100's and the like. You'll learn things you never thought were possible on one of those, and if it turns out it isn't, you're unlikely to do much more damage than getting your bell rung.

[YellowDuck]

I can see after some reading that my opinion about what the rear can and can not do for me on the street is based on a pretty outdated understanding of how motorcycles stop...specifically, pre-ABS knowledge (the INT650 is the first bike I have ever owned with ABS).

So, clearly I have some learning to do on this topic.  I'll see if I can learn to use the rear effectively.  Thanks for setting me straight, gentlemen.

Still 3 C and raining here though....on Monday we hit 31 C.  May in Ontario...  Of course it has to be on my day off that winter decides to do a victory lap.  I put the EBC pads on the front just now and would love to bed them in.

[NVDucati]

Well to be honest I'm not proud of mentioning their names in this context, but it does go some way towards lending credibility to my argument. 

That aside you're a 100% right. And I'd add that one way to explore the absolute limits of traction and what you can do on a motorcycle and stay upright is to train on minibikes, or more accurately XR100's and the like. You'll learn things you never thought were possible on one of those, and if it turns out it isn't, you're unlikely to do much more damage than getting your bell rung.

I was just yanking your chain. Actually, I know one of those guys and shook hands with another. A lot of the big name guys I know, I knew before they became big names and I became, "who?"
    In the Rider Proficiency thread there are details about the slide school. I can't imagine anyone not improving their street skills buy going to one of those schools. Plus, FUN!

[zimmemr]

So, clearly I have some learning to do on this topic.  I'll see if I can learn to use the rear effectively.  Thanks for setting me straight, gentlemen.

I think it'll turn out to be a very short learning curve.

[NVDucati]

Old thread but I just came across an interview entitled:
Why MotoGP Riders use the Rear Brake 70% of Every Lap
https://www.motorsportmagazine.com/articles/motorcycles/motogp/why-motogp-riders-use-the-rear-brake-70-of-every-lap?v=7516fd43adaa

[Island Rider]

I’ve been riding some pretty challenging mountain roads this week through VA, WV and now NC. These are public roads with blind corners up and down mountains. Sometimes there’s a dump truck coming at you half in your lane, or a mid corner patch of gravel, a big rock, or even a branch in your path. And I like to go fast. But there’s no ambulance crew, hospital or even cell reception for miles. So safety is critical. And still I like to go fast. Every corner is different, but being smooth on the brakes and with your throttle is critical. I will regularly drag either the front an/or rear brake until I can see the corner exit, as often it’s blind. As I approach the corner entry, the front brake force eases to off, but sometimes I drag the rear brake to help modulate my lean angle while keeping the throttle partially open to keep slack out of the chain and the engine on the boil so when I roll on the throttle I can get a nice drive to the next corner. It’s an art form, and when I get it right it’s so damn satisfying. The past few days have been very satisfying and my CGT 650 has been a very competent and willing partner. Better suspension and tires are essential though, and the EBC HH pads have been very noticeably better.

Be careful in WV! That is about the only place I have ever driven where I think the speed limits are too high. Narrow twisty roads with tight blind corners and houses - well sure 50 sounds about right, maybe 60 
Plus you get fun stuff like coming around a corner to find a truck with a huge trampoline strapped onto the top that is hitting trees and mailboxes on BOTH sides of the road!

[YellowDuck]

Old thread but I just came across an interview entitled:
Why MotoGP Riders use the Rear Brake 70% of Every Lap
https://www.motorsportmagazine.com/articles/motorcycles/motogp/why-motogp-riders-use-the-rear-brake-70-of-every-lap?v=7516fd43adaa

Oh boy...this was posted in reply #7 of this exact thread in May 2021...and you commented on it in rely #9.

And now you "just came across" it again?

Are you okay?  Is there someone we should call?

 

[Karl Steel]

Are you okay?  Is there someone we should call?

English is not really my language. But am I correct that this isn't very polite? 

[NVDucati]

Oh boy...this was posted in reply #7 of this exact thread in May 2021...and you commented on it in rely #9.

And now you "just came across" it again?

Are you okay?  Is there someone we should call?

Thanks YellowDuck
And yes, please call Heather Thomas for me. She hasn't returned my phone calls since 1988.
_ Funny how I would still think that article is helpful but forgot I had already posted it here. (Posts: 3,868 + this one)
Anyway, a friend and I were emailing about the topic as he was struggling a bit with his corner speed. That is when I came across it, again.
Karl, thanks ... YD is a good guy and I don't mind a little ribbing. ("ribbing" is another English language term for teasing)
_ In the end, I hope a few of the "never use the rear brake" crusaders rethink their position.

[Karl Steel]

YD is a good guy and I don't mind a little ribbing. ("ribbing" is another English language term for teasing)

I will never understand forums. Maybe it's the missing audi-visuality that makes it so complicated.

[NVDucati]

I will never understand forums. Maybe it's the missing audi-visuality that makes it so complicated.

Yes, humor, in particular is difficult via the written word.
There is a popular song expressing that people just have different ways of saying things ...
"You say potato, I say potato" 

[NJ Mike]

Be careful in WV! That is about the only place I have ever driven where I think the speed limits are too high. Narrow twisty roads with tight blind corners and houses - well sure 50 sounds about right, maybe 60 
Plus you get fun stuff like coming around a corner to find a truck with a huge trampoline strapped onto the top that is hitting trees and mailboxes on BOTH sides of the road!

Ha, don't I know it. I've come around the bend only to find a coal hauling semi in 90% of my lane. And also in VA have had a long semi box truck on Rt 16 completely in my lane on the front, and completely across the next curve with his trailer. I've had to negotiate huge gravel patches, downed trees, low flying buzzards, bear scat in the sweet spot of the curve, and many kamakazi deer, all in the middle of a corner.

And to that end, using the rear brake as a lean angle modulator and a suspension/chassis stabilizer, helps greatly when unanticipated stopping or extreme slowing down under control is the name of the game.

[YellowDuck]

Thanks YellowDuck
And yes, please call Heather Thomas for me. She hasn't returned my phone calls since 1988.
_ Funny how I would still think that article is helpful but forgot I had already posted it here. (Posts: 3,868 + this one)
Anyway, a friend and I were emailing about the topic as he was struggling a bit with his corner speed. That is when I came across it, again.
Karl, thanks ... YD is a good guy and I don't mind a little ribbing. ("ribbing" is another English language term for teasing)
_ In the end, I hope a few of the "never use the rear brake" crusaders rethink their position.

Whew...glad you took it as intended.

And anyone who goes back and reads the thread will see that I was one of those crusaders...who ended up changing his mind in the face of the evidence.  Learning occurred.  It happens...