For those who have been waiting for facts and figures without the bullshit. Here is a stock 650 Interceptor and my 650 Interceptor that is fitted with S&S Cycle, Inc. mufflers, pipes from Royal Enfield Sydney / Revelry Cycles, DNA High Performance Filters air filter, and tuned with a PowerTRONIC - Plug-In Performance ECU.Thanks HD MIck for doing this and publishing it.
The blue lines are the stock bike. The red lines are my bike.
The tuning was performed by Dave and Vince at Sydney Dyno Pty Ltd
Don't just look at the peak horsepower numbers, look at the improvement in torque and horsepower everywhere. This is a difference that you will definitely notice. It's not a race bike but it is a bucket of fun to ride. Especially with the quickshifter.
Thank you to Will and Santina at Royal Enfield Sydney
According to powerdynamics their piggy back ecu alone can increase the bhp +3bhp on stock setup with map 2
For those who have been waiting for facts and figures without the bullshit. Here is a stock 650 Interceptor and my 650 Interceptor that is fitted with S&S Cycle, Inc. mufflers, pipes from Royal Enfield Sydney / Revelry Cycles, DNA High Performance Filters air filter, and tuned with a PowerTRONIC - Plug-In Performance ECU.
The blue lines are the stock bike. The red lines are my bike.
The tuning was performed by Dave and Vince at Sydney Dyno Pty Ltd
Don't just look at the peak horsepower numbers, look at the improvement in torque and horsepower everywhere. This is a difference that you will definitely notice. It's not a race bike but it is a bucket of fun to ride. Especially with the quickshifter.
Thank you to Will and Santina at Royal Enfield Sydney
interesting figure.
So 3HP gain at WOT with pipes, exhaust, air filter, remap.
How much did all that cost ? I guesstimate around the 1800 USD mark ?
I tend to be a pragmatic. I bought a 6500€, 47HP bike. Because i liked its overall look, feel and engine. It just happened to be a royal enfield.
For the money of getting that same bike up to 50HP (and getting it not street legal in the process), i would buy a triumph street twin in a heartbeat. It has more displacement, a 65HP engine, better suspensions, better finish.
Do not get me wrong, I like my interceptor, and it is totally worth its cost. I just find hard to justify spending that kind of money on an engine to get so little in return.
I have nothing against people doing it anyway. Not everyone cares about the money side when passions shows its head. I am doing the same with my race car (although with VERY different result. OEM power: 171HP. current: 600ish. And it revs higher than my int. Turbos are great 8)) And just like it, it IS a serious money pit !
$1500 might buy a textbook or two ;D
I tend to be a pragmatic. I bought a 6500€, 47HP bike. Because i liked its overall look, feel and engine. It just happened to be a royal enfield.
For the money of getting that same bike up to 50HP (and getting it not street legal in the process), i would buy a triumph street twin in a heartbeat. It has more displacement, a 65HP engine, better suspensions, better finish.
Do not get me wrong, I like my interceptor, and it is totally worth its cost. I just find hard to justify spending that kind of money on an engine to get so little in return.
I have nothing against people doing it anyway. Not everyone cares about the money side when passions shows its head. I am doing the same with my race car (although with VERY different result. OEM power: 171HP. current: 600ish. And it revs higher than my int. Turbos are great 8)) And just like it, it IS a serious money pit !
If you remove all of the Powertronics stuff and replace it with a Booster Plug, there might be something here that is meaningful to most of us who are not going to spend the bucks for a Powertronics or dyno tuning.As I have said before, I don't have a dyno (bummer). But I've been around them and I'm willing to stick my neck out with a observation.
That tells me that both the factory team and Mick's guys know exactly how to map a fuel injection system. It must have killed the factory guys to choke down that engine in order to meet the licensing and insurance standards.
It's also emission standards. Not going to get into a flamey kind of discussion about all that, but Euro 4 and Euro 5 emission standards are tough for a reason, and they are the global standard (even more than EPA). Yes, bikes are a small percentage of overall vehicles on the road. Yes, diesel trucks and lawnmowers and any big ICE is going to be emitting more than any of our no-longer-compliant bike with a cat delete and re-tune.
Yes, bikers are notoriously independent and crotchety and hate to be told what to do 8).
All that does not change the fact that manufacturers are making bikes to meet emissions requirements. We're free to modify as we wish. But engineers have to design to standards that allow bikes to be sold.
I'm pretty sure that it was not a coincidence that RE hit exactly the HP number for the "junior" license barrier and in turn a demarcation line for insurance rates. All the global market bike do have emission standards, you are right about that. But bikes can meet those standards at 104hp on up. The global operators limitations were based on displacement not long ago and still is in some countries. But then the midsize bike got faster and faster.
So you are certainly not wrong. However, I'm pretty sure that the horsepower was on the cover sheet of their business plan for this model. ;)
For those who have been waiting for facts and figures without the bullshit. Here is a stock 650 Interceptor and my 650 Interceptor that is fitted with S&S Cycle, Inc. mufflers, pipes from Royal Enfield Sydney / Revelry Cycles, DNA High Performance Filters air filter, and tuned with a PowerTRONIC - Plug-In Performance ECU.That’s something like a mean 10% difference. Good on you mate, those graphs are hard to argue with. Although I bet Cyril will!
The blue lines are the stock bike. The red lines are my bike.
The tuning was performed by Dave and Vince at Sydney Dyno Pty Ltd
Don't just look at the peak horsepower numbers, look at the improvement in torque and horsepower everywhere. This is a difference that you will definitely notice. It's not a race bike but it is a bucket of fun to ride. Especially with the quickshifter.
Thank you to Will and Santina at Royal Enfield Sydney
Thanks HD MIck for doing this and publishing it.Well put and my opinion entirely 👍
I know that some folks will dismiss "up-tuning" a midsize motorcycle when you could just buy a faster 1150cc something. Then they dismiss the bigger bike because nobody uses all that power ... etc. blah de blah.
That is missing the point entirely. A point that you make and I agree with. Sweet running motorcycles -especially midsize ones - are a real joy to ride. My bike has gone from a really great bike to a _ I love this freak'n motorcycle!
As I have said before, I don't have a dyno (bummer). But I've been around them and I'm willing to stick my neck out with a observation.Rational contributions as usual👍
When you look at both bikes results, Red HD Mick's and blue the stocker, you will notice that the lines are pretty much parallel. Just that HD Mick's are better across the board. You will also notice that the blue OEM line gets wiggly near the top of the rev range. I think that is where the stock system struggles for air.
That tells me that both the factory team and Mick's guys know exactly how to map a fuel injection system. It must have killed the factory guys to choke down that engine in order to meet the licensing and insurance standards.
I also think that if you added a green line representing the BoosterPlug with the other upgrades it would cling to the underside of the red line. That is based on a wild guess and 40+ years of experience. ;)
I'm pretty sure that it was not a coincidence that RE hit exactly the HP number for the "junior" license barrier and in turn a demarcation line for insurance rates. All the global market bike do have emission standards, you are right about that. But bikes can meet those standards at 104hp on up. The global operators limitations were based on displacement not long ago and still is in some countries. But then the midsize bike got faster and faster.As I've said elsewhere, when these bikes become popular enough, I'm sure someone will 'crack' the stock ECU and create aftermarket maps which will will significantly improve the performance with few other mods required, other than filters and exhausts. Steve
So you are certainly not wrong. However, I'm pretty sure that the horsepower was on the cover sheet of their business plan for this model. ;)
We all go through it, when I was a young bloke I bought an XS2 650 Yamaha, bored it stuck in 650 Benelli pistons and still got my ar$e kicked by a Honda 4.
Now I've gone full circle, up to 2.3 rocket and now back to a 650 Interceptor and loving it.
Lots of differing opinions here.
I don’t care if anyone likes or dislikes what I have done.
This bike makes me smile every time I ride it and that’s all I care about.
If other people choose to use any info that I have shared, that’s another reason to smile.
If people choose to disagree, that’s good too. If we all agreed, it’d be a very boring world.
Think I measured the runner length in the airbox at 9 1/2"with a total of 14" to the valves. Cut that total intake length to 11-12" and you get over 50hp without loosing anything (very little) on the bottom.Can you suggest any simple reversible way
That HP curve is 99.8% because of the stock 14" intake length
Can you suggest any simple reversible wayA rotary saw and JB Weld 8)
to shorten the runner?
Steve
A rotary saw and JB Weld 8)Couldn’t just plug it somehow? Does the chamber have to be rigid?
Posted by: dcolak
« on: Today at 01:40:36 am »
Insert Quote
Guys, are you aware that top torque of the original bike is at 5100 RPM?
Modified one gives you that same torque at 3500 RPM!
Modified bike at 6500 RPM still gives the max torque that original bike had at 5100 RPM!
That is simply AWESOME.
It transforms the bike from good to awesome, if you actually like to ride it and are not afraid to use the full RPM range 8)
Ah, and if you ride it like granny, you still get the benefit of having max torque at low 3500 RPM, which actually does not fall off afterwards but keeps rising (unlike the original after 5100 RPM).
P.S.
You do not do this kind of mod to get "3 HP on top."
You do it to get more useful torque all over the RPM range and actually keep the motor more relaxed.
Quote from: Starpeve on Today at 03:22:24 am
Can you suggest any simple reversible way
to shorten the runner?
Steve
It's also emission standards. Not going to get into a flamey kind of discussion about all that, but Euro 4 and Euro 5 emission standards are tough for a reason, and they are the global standard (even more than EPA). Yes, bikes are a small percentage of overall vehicles on the road. Yes, diesel trucks and lawnmowers and any big ICE is going to be emitting more than any of our no-longer-compliant bike with a cat delete and re-tune.
Yes, bikers are notoriously independent and crotchety and hate to be told what to do 8).
All that does not change the fact that manufacturers are making bikes to meet emissions requirements. We're free to modify as we wish. But engineers have to design to standards that allow bikes to be sold.
Guys, are you aware that top torque of the original bike is at 5100 RPM?
Modified one gives you that same torque at 3500 RPM!
Modified bike at 6500 RPM still gives the max torque that original bike had at 5100 RPM!
That is simply AWESOME.
It transforms the bike from good to awesome, if you actually like to ride it and are not afraid to use the full RPM range 8)
Ah, and if you ride it like granny, you still get the benefit of having max torque at low 3500 RPM, which actually does not fall off afterwards but keeps rising (unlike the original after 5100 RPM).
P.S.
You do not do this kind of mod to get "3 HP on top."
You do it to get more useful torque all over the RPM range and actually keep the motor more relaxed.
This is a mistake, but do not worry many people do it. A WOT dyno run cannot be used to extrapolate part throttle or transient as you imply on your last sentence. Unless you get more displacement, the additional power at WOT is always the result of lesser power at part throttle.Fillings, nothing more than fillings....
The engine lost its harmonics scavenging systems both at the intake and exhaust to get more flow when it was limited, i.e. at high throttle opening and WOT. This means the engine will give more torque than stock, but only at that time; and it will give less when these systems were working. There is threshold on the throttle opening where the power is going to be worse than stock. Usually that is under around 60-70% throttle opening.
It means that when you are cruising, or giving a bit of gas, the engine will produce less torque than stock. the upgraded air filter gives better transient, which makes the butt dyno feel that you get more, but you do not. While this is great in racing condition, it also makes keeping the same speed harder; the bike becomes a bit more on/off. It is similar to how stiffer suspensions can make its user believe he goes faster, as he feels more bumps and Gs. I had quite some passengers in my track car that said it felt slow compared to their car. They were very surprised seeing it was actually running 2 seconds a lap faster than them. Do not be deceived by your feelings !
This is a mistake, but do not worry many people do it. A WOT dyno run cannot be used to extrapolate part throttle or transient as you imply on your last sentence. Unless you get more displacement, the additional power at WOT is always the result of lesser power at part throttle.
The engine lost its harmonics scavenging systems both at the intake and exhaust to get more flow when it was limited, i.e. at high throttle opening and WOT. This means the engine will give more torque than stock, but only at that time; and it will give less when these systems were working. There is threshold on the throttle opening where the power is going to be worse than stock. Usually that is under around 60-70% throttle opening.
It means that when you are cruising, or giving a bit of gas, the engine will produce less torque than stock. the upgraded air filter gives better transient, which makes the butt dyno feel that you get more, but you do not. While this is great in racing condition, it also makes keeping the same speed harder; the bike becomes a bit more on/off. It is similar to how stiffer suspensions can make its user believe he goes faster, as he feels more bumps and Gs. I had quite some passengers in my track car that said it felt slow compared to their car. They were very surprised seeing it was actually running 2 seconds a lap faster than them. Do not be deceived by your feelings !
'Butt dyno'. Love it!
Thinking of taking a PhD in mechanical engineering... this discussion to be heavily cited! ;D
This is a mistake, but do not worry many people do it. A WOT dyno run cannot be used to extrapolate part throttle or transient as you imply on your last sentence. Unless you get more displacement, the additional power at WOT is always the result of lesser power at part throttle.
The engine lost its harmonics scavenging systems both at the intake and exhaust to get more flow when it was limited, i.e. at high throttle opening and WOT. This means the engine will give more torque than stock, but only at that time; and it will give less when these systems were working. There is threshold on the throttle opening where the power is going to be worse than stock. Usually that is under around 60-70% throttle opening.
It means that when you are cruising, or giving a bit of gas, the engine will produce less torque than stock. the upgraded air filter gives better transient, which makes the butt dyno feel that you get more, but you do not. While this is great in racing condition, it also makes keeping the same speed harder; the bike becomes a bit more on/off. It is similar to how stiffer suspensions can make its user believe he goes faster, as he feels more bumps and Gs. I had quite some passengers in my track car that said it felt slow compared to their car. They were very surprised seeing it was actually running 2 seconds a lap faster than them. Do not be deceived by your feelings !
If the fuel mapping is correct you will see better torque at all throttle openings. Why do you think ECU will restrict the fueling because of more air getting into the engine and being easier to get it out of the system through the new exhaust cans? It will compensate no matter what position throttle is in.👍
If the fuel mapping is correct you will see better torque at all throttle openings. Why do you think ECU will restrict the fueling because of more air getting into the engine and being easier to get it out of the system through the new exhaust cans? It will compensate no matter what position throttle is in.
No, you will not, as the problem is not fuel but air, and i never said that, thank you.And yet you continue to deny or ignore my cpu example of the ls1 V8 example I’ve spoken off.
Like starpeve you believe the ECU does some kind of black magic. It does not, it will send whatever fuel is needed to reach the target AFR, this is not an alphaN system nor a carburetor.
The hard part in an engine that uses injection is getting air in and out. Fuel is not a limiting factor. The problem here is that less air is entering the cylinders for the same throttle position when at part throttle.
By removing the airbox cover, you are discarding the system that helps push air in the cylinders.
By removing the stock silencers and replacing them with a straight through, you are discarding the scavenging system that helps pump burnt gas out of the cylinders and replace it with fresh mixture when valve overlap happens.
Both these effects take place around a specific rpm and its first and second multiple (called second and third harmonics), on a race engine they will be set for high rpms (and you will lose top end power by changing the silencer and/or the airbox on that kind of bike. The only reason to ditch the silencer is weight gain).
On bikes like ours, that were never meant with top end power in mind, they are set to work at lower revs. They can restrict flow, and since they are not set for max power, this is why they get removed. Put bigger exhaust cans and a bigger airbox, and these systems can be used without restricting the maximum amount of air that can enter the engine... but there is no room for that.
Anyway, removing these systems when they are not tuned for max power and restrict max engine flow allows more maximum flow, which is in effect when the throttle is opened a lot.
You will find countless pages of explanations regarding this on google, search for "airbox tuning" or "airbox resonnance" , and exhaust scavenging effect.
...I think you are describing that "back pressure" slows the pace of (lets call them) gulps of exhaust to better match the valve overlap. Is that true?
By removing the stock silencers and replacing them with a straight through, you are discarding the scavenging system that helps pump burnt gas out of the cylinders and replace it with fresh mixture when valve overlap happens.
And yet you continue to deny or ignore my cpu example of the ls1 V8 example I’ve spoken off.
As I just posted elsewhere, are you aware the the 650’s cpu restricts fuel to the engine when it reads 5500 rpm from the crank angle sensor? Right where the torque drops off? For ‘engine protection’? I’m not talking about black magic, I’m talking about deliberate performance moderation on an engine which could possibly perform much better if allowed. Maybe not. But probably yes.
Steve
And yet you continue to deny or ignore my cpu example of the ls1 V8 example I’ve spoken off.
As I just posted elsewhere, are you aware the the 650’s cpu restricts fuel to the engine when it reads 5500 rpm from the crank angle sensor? Right where the torque drops off? For ‘engine protection’? I’m not talking about black magic, I’m talking about deliberate performance moderation on an engine which could possibly perform much better if allowed. Maybe not. But probably yes.
Steve
Yes, i ignore it because that engine has nothing to do with a twin 650cc SOHC bike engine.
No, i am not aware the ECU "restricts fuel", and neither are you. I am aware you claimed that in another thread, without giving any kind of evidence.
I am aware of your mindset, and i know you resent me each time i show your beliefs are either wrong or unproven. You are not the first, nor the last.
I cannot point you the crossroad and the path, but you will have to choose to walk it. But until you change your mindset to something more scientific and reasonable, you will improve your knowledge.
You are convinced the ECU cuts power, and that you will take every bit of information that seems to go toward your conviction as gospel that does not require any kind of proof. You will jump to conclusions in the same way, and you will discard every proof that shows you are wrong because it does not match what you believe. Case in point, you are ignoring the results of the thread owner here.
I am open to discussing your claim, but you have to realize that claiming something out of the ordinary requires solid proof and explanation.
Explain what you mean by "fuel restriction",give proof of its existence, and how this is a cause of limiting power. And then we will discuss. I do have a pretty good idea of what you observed or were told though, and a very ordinary explanation of it already.
If you can prove your point I will believe you; i have no problem with accepting I am wrong.
But right now, considering the complete absence of proof and explanation from you and your stance on the subject i hope you understand my doubts are pretty high.
, are you aware the the 650’s cpu restricts fuel to the engine when it reads 5500 rpm from the crank angle sensor?
16. Crank Position Sensor
It provides an alternating electrical pulse to the ECU, to determine crankshaft speed and TDC position of the piston in
compression stroke. This input will help the ECU to optimize both fuel injection as well as Ignition advance required to
suit the crankshaft rotation speed (RPM).
In the event throttle is wide open, leading to crankshaft speed above 5500 RPM, the high frequency electrical pulses from
the crank position sensor will prompt the ECU to restrict fuel supply so that the crank speed reduces to safe levels. This is
a safety aspect to prevent damage to moving engine parts.
n the event the throttle is held wide open with gears in neutral, leading to crankshaft speed above 5500 RPM, thehigh frequency electrical pulses from the crank position sensor will prompt the ECU to restrict fuel supply so that thecrank speed reduces below 5000 RPM. This is a safety aspect to prevent damage to moving engine parts.
Doubting and asking for proof is not paranoia, it is science.
Believing everything you read in a book is exactly what religious guys tell you.
I found the info page 620, 606 in the pdf.
copy / paste.
Read the bold part now. Doesn't it strike you as odd that something tells you it not justs restricts fuel, but it prevents the engine from revving doing so ? Because if that was true, the engine would well, not rev higher than 6000. and yet it does.
Which made me think there is an error in that book - and I know there are tons, like that chapter that tells to top up oil level with brake fluid. But since it is an unordinary claim, i searched for proof ...
And I found it, with a google search. That section is a copy/paste of euro4 single cylinders engines from royal enfield.
pdf page 178, the very same text. Which makes sense, on a single 500cc engine ...
http://www.royalenfieldlesite.fr/spip/IMG/pdf/manuel-entretien-roayl-enfield-500.pdf
pdf page 178, the very same text. Which makes sense, on a single 500cc engine ...
http://www.royalenfieldlesite.fr/spip/IMG/pdf/manuel-entretien-roayl-enfield-500.pdf
There is a slight change though:
My bet is whoever copied this forgot this part in bold.
Aren't there forums strictly dedicated to arguing, one upmanship and related obnoxiousness?
Tell me how you would get 58-60 HP from this engine naturally aspirated while using the stock cams AND without taking any torque from the bottom. Tell me and you can prove to everyone what you do and do not know.
So far I'm thinking just another one who isn't aware of what he doesn't know.
This is what i think too.
I do not know the characteristics of the OEM cams, but you can easily see the difference in cam profile in the pic:
http://www.ss119.id/shop/high-compression-111-piston-kit-royal-enfield-650-twins/
The shape show a much faster and longer valve opening. I am a bit surprised by the duration though, 216/222 still feels a bit short for a race cam on a bike... but since the stock cam allows for 50ish HP, even a "short-ish" cam should net quite the improvement without sacrificing too much low/middle range. I would not be suprised to see 60HP from that cam and a remap alone.
You look at the dyno curves of that cam and you say "I do not know the characteristics of the OEM cams"... LoL... I was giving you way much more credit than you deserve! You know absolutely nothing about building Hi-Po naturally aspirated engines ::)
Yes, i cannot guess the lift and duration of a set of cams by looking at a dyno. Nor can you. Nor can anyone.
Do you realize you are making a fool of yourself, after i took the time to explain where you made a mistake and you called me paranoid and obnoxious ? Do we need to get a moderator involved so we can have a civil discussion without your ego getting in the way ?
Let's please keep the tone civil and productive, OK? I don't see myself as here to officiate over schoolyard quarrels, but other members ARE beginning to complain. What started out as a nice solid topic with fat juicy metrics is starting to devolve into something resembling one of those Siberian Slap Fight contests, but maybe not so "butch."(https://s3media.247sports.com/Uploads/Assets/264/595/9595264.gif)
Keep it nice, folks.
LS1's love a tune because they were tuned so sloppily from new. They run too rich and ignition curves are choppy and all over the place. Who you ask depends on whether it was on purpose or by mistake. Here's a good read. It's old now but LS motors are no spring chickens, either. Note the part where they mention the power gain with a failing fuel pump dropping pressure and leaning the AFR. (Disclaimer: I've never owned an LS, this is just what I've learned from reading and chatting with owners. My own carb fed SBC and I6 motors gained power/economy after cam, head, displacement, exhaust and carb changes).My point. But the sloppy LS 1 tunes ( I’ve spent a fair bit of time on Oztrack, etc also) were probably by intent, as they already knew how to squeeze them through the Corvettes . Same engines, same hardware, more power.
https://www.oztrack.com.au/2013-09-27-06-14-12/ls1-tuning-explained
I think you're both right. A well tuned from factory engine needs more than a tune to make big power gains. But one hamstrung from the factory, there's room for improvement.
There are places where believers meet, wank together, and band against anyone that would contradict them, yes. If your alpha ego cannot fathom getting contradicted or proven wrong, i suggest either joining one of these, or taking the time to check if whatever you are writing is not wrong. Avoid calling people paranoid when they ask for said proofs, and you will probably not be met with obnoxious answers when you get your errors pointed.I’m not sure if that post was aimed at you or me or both of us Cyril! BTW , not doubting your knowledge or skills at all. Just cogitating on possibilities!👍
As for your question, why should I answer ? I never made such a claim. I have a couple of answers, but the quantity of work or the lack of reliability involved makes it a moot point. And if any of us need to provide proof of whatever he writes, that would be you, since you never did so far. Unlike me.
I'm with Cyril on this one....everything he says, he backs up.
BTW ran my bike between 5000 and 6000 a few times today....she really pulls hard in that range! (wouldn't do that without fuel!)
Cookie
Only quoting the beloved tech manual my friend!
Steve
I used to own a Dnepr 650 (Russian) motorbike with a 7 to 1 compression ratio, the manual suggested to use good quality 72 to 74 octane petrol for best performance. I can't remember its power or torque figures (not much)Looked it up, apparently the Dnepr made 45HP on better octane fuel!
To quote Btitney-“oops Idid it again.“ !
I’m not sure if that post was aimed at you or me or both of us Cyril! BTW , not doubting your knowledge or skills at all. Just cogitating on possibilities!👍
Cheers Steve
PS I totally agree with the comments posted about nastiness- civility is everything.
I am not a native english speaker so sometimes i have a hard time explaining myself, and some figures of speech do not translate well.
It is actually hard to reason, the human brain is not wired for that. It is wired to follow people that think the same, to create groups, because groups have a stronger chance at survival. Evolution takes time ...
This is a known process. When someone believes in something, he is more likely to accept whatever he reads or hear that support that belief, and only doubt what does not. I am no exception, it took a lot of work to doubt even when something goes my way, and sometimes stuff still goes past that mechanism. I have some videos that explain books about it, which really helped me to understand this, but they are in French so it will probably be useless to you. If you are interested i can try to get the key ideas and books the guy develops, there surely are other videos in english that do the same.
What I meant is that everyone should question stuff when it is said without any kind of proof, especially when it support your own belief, as this is the kind of stuff we tend to give a free pass.
We are humans, we all make mistakes, and I include myself in there. I have posted stuff that was wrong too. I believe there is no shame in getting something wrong, or saying "hey you are right i was wrong". It require putting the ego a bit to the side, which hurts, a lot the first time, less the next, and after some time it does not much.
Anyway this also applies to me; if i say stuff without backing it, or if the explanation I give feels incomplete, off, or if people just do not understand, do not hesitate to doubt and ask. Improving knowledge is all about removing what we think is wrong, and accepting new stuff (that can be proven wrong too later). What i mean is do not believe blindly ;)
Lots of differing opinions here.
I don’t care if anyone likes or dislikes what I have done.
This bike makes me smile every time I ride it and that’s all I care about.
If other people choose to use any info that I have shared, that’s another reason to smile.
If people choose to disagree, that’s good too. If we all agreed, it’d be a very boring world.
First post for seven months.Thanks for the update, I was wondering where you had gone. Sorry about your clutch.
Looking at some of the posts made since then is ... errr ... interesting.
Update on my Interceptor.
Now fitted with S&S Cycle camshaft along with their 865cc kit.
Will from Revelry Cycles/Royal Enfield Sydney loaded a map into the Powertronics ECU to suit my stock, unmodified cylinder head and throttle bodies.
He recommended that I fit a Rekluse Torq Drive clutch at the same time but being stubborn, I didn't. Less than 50km later I realised why he had said that they include the clutch as a standard part of all 865 builds.
Before the clutch went zing, i found that the whole bike is just nicer to ride. More power everywhere.
Will update when new clutch is fitted.
My 865 was raced at Sydney Dragway last week by Will from Revelry Racing/Royal Enfield Sydney.Wicked great news !
With a Rekluse Torq Drive clutch pack fitted, it held all of the available power.
While it was on the bench being re-clutched, the 15-tooth countershaft sprocket was replaced by one with 16 teeth. Along with the clutch, I recommend this change.
Horsepower and torque figures are unknown at this stage. In fact, I don't really care about those numbers.
For those that understand drag racing, it ran a pair of 12.8s, a couple of 13.0s and a 13.1-second pass. All of these passes were at 99 or 100mph.
Then I rode it home.
My 865 Interceptor is a bloody good thing. It's now easier to ride than a stocker and is a lot more fun in traffic. Most importantly, it makes me smile.
Does anyone know how the Rekluse clutch compares to the S&S one?
Mick, are the maps Revelry did for your bike uploaded to PowerTronic (can anyone get access to them)?
My 865 was raced at Sydney Dragway last week by Will from Revelry Racing/Royal Enfield Sydney.
With a Rekluse Torq Drive clutch pack fitted, it held all of the available power.
While it was on the bench being re-clutched, the 15-tooth countershaft sprocket was replaced by one with 16 teeth. Along with the clutch, I recommend this change.
Horsepower and torque figures are unknown at this stage. In fact, I don't really care about those numbers.
For those that understand drag racing, it ran a pair of 12.8s, a couple of 13.0s and a 13.1-second pass. All of these passes were at 99 or 100mph.
Then I rode it home.
My 865 Interceptor is a bloody good thing. It's now easier to ride than a stocker and is a lot more fun in traffic. Most importantly, it makes me smile.
I think an 865 build with related upgrades would be a fabulous ride.
Where's the gripe with intelligently conceived and well executed hop ups? I admire the commitment in time and resources.
I'm surprised that any one would object to such a build. It's the OPs' bike, and his time/money.
One might suggest simply buying a more powerful bike at the outset but that narrow point of view ignores the entire history and intent of hot rodding.
I'd say any objections are out of envy.
Would love to do the big bore kit along with the cam and dyno tune . But sadly most RE mechanics around here can only do break pads and chain lube .
We have a HD dealer around the corner but they laughed at me when i said big bore and RE .
What is the solution? Seriously.
If 650 cc is the problem...
850cc ain't the solution!
Cookie
What is the solution? Seriously.
1000cc race bike....1200 cc Bonneville, 1800 cc whatever....2500 cc, 165 HP triumph rocket...200+ hp sport bike...
Blowing out a 650 to 850 is a fun exercise but hardly worth the trouble...
Cookie
This from a guy who flies planes with NO ENGINE!!! ;) Any power is already too much.
I think there's a guy here that spent this same amount on suspension upgrades not really understanding what he was getting or why, and then not liking the results.
Why do we do things? because we are compelled to do things, and then we die, having done some of those things.
1000cc race bike....1200 cc Bonneville, 1800 cc whatever....2500 cc, 165 HP triumph rocket...200+ hp sport bike...This is what I don't get. None of those things are the same as a punched out Interceptor, so there's no point in even comparing them. Ignoring the more absurd examples, even the 1200 Bonnie is merely "close" to what someone who wants a big bore Interceptor might be looking for. In my case, it wasn't close enough, so I didn't waste money or time on it. Now admittedly, I'll probably never get around to a big bore kit, but it is a heck of a lot more appealing to me than what Triumph has done with the Bonnevilles.
Blowing out a 650 to 850 is a fun exercise but hardly worth the trouble...
Cookie
I think there's a guy here that spent this same amount on suspension upgrades not really understanding what he was getting or why, and then not liking the results.
Why do we do things? because we are compelled to do things, and then we die, having done some of those things.
This is what I don't get. None of those things are the same as a punched out Interceptor, so there's no point in even comparing them. Ignoring the more absurd examples, even the 1200 Bonnie is merely "close" to what someone who wants a big bore Interceptor might be looking for. In my case, it wasn't close enough, so I didn't waste money or time on it. Now admittedly, I'll probably never get around to a big bore kit, but it is a heck of a lot more appealing to me than what Triumph has done with the Bonnevilles.
Then of course there is the most glaring issue, the "trouble" is the fun for folks who like to wrench on stuff.
So your INT goes 112, and mine goes 100...ok you win! Slow and slower compared to "fast" bikes out there....You seem to be the only one trying to turn it into a competition, I don't think anyone else cares. I ride my bikes, not yours.
Cookie
You seem to be the only one trying to turn it into a competition, I don't think anyone else cares. I ride my bikes, not yours.
I can jump in on this because, as an Enfield modder, I have been fielding this question for a decade.
Question:
Why not just buy a faster bike?
Answer:
Because my bike has certain style and characteristics which made me choose it over other bikes, and I want to keep it, but I'd like it to be a bit faster for wahatever reason. Other bikes don't suit my tastes, so they are not candidates just because they happen to have more power.
Why do we do things? because we are compelled to do things, and then we die, having done some of those things.
Looking at time left on planet (TLOP), I think riding the Interceptor will have to come ahead of modifying!
(https://thumbs.gfycat.com/NeatDecentIaerismetalmark.webp)
Cookie stop being a troll, there are a few members that constantly put down peoples chosen upgrades and say what’s the point.
I really admire the way Heavyduty Mick shares his 865 build info with us but doesn't waste his time defending his choices, very classy just like his bike.Yup.
Just checked in for the first time since posting earlier this month.(https://forum.classicmotorworks.com/Themes/community18/images/post/thumbup.gif)
You trolls should seriously fuck off and find another hobby.
Sitting in front of the screen and batting off while bagging everyone else's efforts is really very sad. And pointless.
As well as the 865, I also have a 124cube M8 Softail that makes me smile, and a Hayabusa dragbike that also makes me smile.
I build and modify bikes that make me smile. Not you. Me.
Just checked in for the first time since posting earlier this month.
You trolls should seriously fuck off and find another hobby.
Sitting in front of the screen and batting off while bagging everyone else's efforts is really very sad. And pointless.
As well as the 865, I also have a 124cube M8 Softail that makes me smile, and a Hayabusa dragbike that also makes me smile.
I build and modify bikes that make me smile. Not you. Me.
How about we talk about which oil is the best? a nice safe non-controversial subject like that???Flathead Fords have soul. Welcome.
Ive spent over 60 years riding, wrenching, restoring and hotrodding vehicles. And winning races and trophies.
I just bought an Interceptor because I can set the valves without tearing down the engine and investing in more tools.
Over the last 6 years I have owned and modded a Hyabusa, Suzuki 4 banger, BMW R75/6, , Triumph T100, Triumph T120, Moto Guzzi V7 etc etc etc wait a min lemme tell you about my Flathead Ford that I got from 90 HP to 170 HP .... now thats a labour of insanity... just buy a SBC V8 and be done... nope I did it because I like to. Same as the RE, its going to have the 2 - 1 pipe added plus a weight loss program to make it lighter and more like my old Triumph 500 Desert Sled. Some of you have lost your sense of humour.
lemme tell you about my Flathead Ford that I got from 90 HP to 170 HP .... now thats a labour of insanity... just buy a SBC V8 and be done... nope I did it because I like to. Same as the RE, its going to have the 2 - 1 pipe added plus a weight loss program to make it lighter and more like my old Triumph 500 Desert Sled. Some of you have lost your sense of humour.You think that's bad, try building a Y-block these days! Talk a bout a labor of insanity!
No thrashing intended, just offering a bit of perspective! ;D
But this agita is logical vs. emotional brain. Cookie is using the logical side of his brain- Why spend all that money and time on modification when for about the same money spent on these mods you could probably find a used 600cc Jap sportbike that would trounce any modified RE 650 in every way? Logical brain.
No thrashing intended, just offering a bit of perspective! ;D
Logically, an used jap sport bike is excessive for what most riders can legally do with it, making even it an emotional choice. In the developed world, riding a motor cycle is almost always an emotional decision.
Having said that, the logic argument falls apart for another reason. The person trying to apply "logic" is looking at things from an illogical perspective. They're tying to apply their priorities to someone else's decisions. Wanting "more performance" doesn't mean "most performance". If that was the case, the argument would be to buy a BMW S1000RRM, which is an utterly absurd choice for someone that wants a classically styled bike with a moderate riding position for commuting, running up to the local for a pint and a burger, or cruising around the lakes at 35-45 for an afternoon.
The logical choice for someone who finds the almost perfect bike but wants a few more horsepower and a few fewer lbs is to throw a couple grand at it and making it perfectly suit their needs. It's illogical to buy something completely different from what they want just because it has something the almost perfect bike doesn't have but can easily be added. It's like selling your dream house to move into an aging doublewide because you don't like the color of the carpet. ;D
My motorcycle modification logic starts and stops where my passion impinges on the supply of my basic needs such as food and shelter ;).
OK guys, once again, breathe deep, then back away from the keyboards and ride your motorcycles. It always helps. 8)
OK guys, once again, breathe deep, then back away from the keyboards and ride your motorcycles. It always helps. 8)
Does anybody in any motorcycle forum actually ride? According to some, we're all pimply millenials posting from our mom's basement!
Does anybody in any motorcycle forum actually ride? According to some, we're all pimply millenials posting from our mom's basement!
Does anybody in any motorcycle forum actually ride? According to some, we're all pimply millenials posting from our mom's basement!Millennials are in their 30s. You know you're getting old when 30 year olds are punk kids. ;)
Millennials are in their 30s. You know you're getting old when 30 year olds are punk kids. ;)
I think the term you're looking for is Gen Z. But that might be zombies for all I know.
Hell, I was being kind. Pretty sure we're mostly a bunch of wrinkly Boomers.
Does anybody in any motorcycle forum actually ride? According to some, we're all pimply millenials posting from our mom's basement!Yes I do ride most every day year round. I’ve ridden my motorcycle in all fifty states and in all of the ten Canadian Provinces. With one exception Hawaii I rented a HD Street Glide for two days. For my long distance riding I’ve used a Moto Guzzi now retired, for the last ten years I now ride Harley Davidsons. Do I come to look or post on motorcycle forums every day or week? NO, I would rather ride than talk about riding.
Does anybody in any motorcycle forum actually ride? According to some, we're all pimply millenials posting from our mom's basement!
I am just happy I joined this forum recently. I have a problem with not wanting to own any vehicle or motorcycle "stock". Ton of knowledge here... All that is missing is a couple beers between us.
Going to go spend some money on +1hp more.
I'm a boomer (just), and my next task is to find out what the hell Aleve is! ???Naproxen sodium
Naproxen sodiumThanks. My education continues...
Does anybody in any motorcycle forum actually ride? According to some, we're all pimply millenials posting from our mom's basement!
Yes! How else do you learn all the upgrades you want/need? I do have the interest to take this out to track or ride aggressively in the mountains. At the moment stock tires don't give me that comfort as of yet.The stock tires were clearly chosen strictly for the look. Nearly everybody reports that replacing them makes a clear improvement.
Hell, I was being kind. Pretty sure we're mostly a bunch of wrinkly Boomers.Damn! I thought I had the camera turned off on this computer!
But Aye, Lads, to bed! For we rise at daybreak!
and then pee and go back to bed for a couple of hours to let the Aleve kick in
Great thread. I've been on both sides of the fence. Modded the **** out of a Ducati Sport Classic to try to turn it into a competent race bike (total suspension, steering damper, wheels, brakes, track bodywork, intake pods, exhaust, fuel map, pegs, controls, probably a bunch more stuff I have forgotten). A bunch of that I would have done even if I wasn't racing it because honestly, at that time I enjoyed wrenching almost as much as riding.
This bike (once it arrives), is about just having a sweet little road bike to go riding on, mostly with my teenage daughter on her CBR250R. No time for spinning wrenches these days really. It will do exactly what I want it to do in 100% stock form, and look good doing it.
Both are perfectly legitimate ways of enjoying this hobby. To each their own.
(But honestly, given my past irrational compulsion to needlessly modify perfectly good bikes, I may need to join a support group to stick to the above plan. Can we start a thread for that?)
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-4T-WvpacOCM/Vf2V9J7gPlI/AAAAAAAAA64/ZBJ4S1bnjGg/s400/flag2.jpg)
Think I measured the runner length in the airbox at 9 1/2"with a total of 14" to the valves. Cut that total intake length to 11-12" and you get over 50hp without loosing anything (very little) on the bottom.:-X :-X :-X
That HP curve is 99.8% because of the stock 14" intake length
My 865 was raced at Sydney Dragway last week by Will from Revelry Racing/Royal Enfield Sydney.I’d call those pretty respectable times.
With a Rekluse Torq Drive clutch pack fitted, it held all of the available power.
While it was on the bench being re-clutched, the 15-tooth countershaft sprocket was replaced by one with 16 teeth. Along with the clutch, I recommend this change.
Horsepower and torque figures are unknown at this stage. In fact, I don't really care about those numbers.
For those that understand drag racing, it ran a pair of 12.8s, a couple of 13.0s and a 13.1-second pass. All of these passes were at 99 or 100mph.
Then I rode it home.
My 865 Interceptor is a bloody good thing. It's now easier to ride than a stocker and is a lot more fun in traffic. Most importantly, it makes me smile.
| Description | _ | Inlet | _ | Exhaust |
| Cam Lift | 7.75mm | 7.75mm | ||
| Valve Lift | 9.25mm | 9.17mm | ||
| Full lift Position | 108° ATDC | |||
| Valve clearance | 0.10mm/0.125mm | 0.15mm/0.175mm |