Author Topic: Why does my bike keep breaking?  (Read 25934 times)

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blasphemous

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on: June 09, 2019, 01:24:08 am
Took the bike out of the garage for a ride. Held the clutch in kicked over a couple of times. Held the de-compressor in and kicked over a couple of times and heard a sound (I think) and then the kicker froze. I can only kick when the clutch is held in. Not other wise, the kicker is stuck solid. What is wrong with my bike?

Thanks !


Bilgemaster

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Reply #1 on: June 09, 2019, 01:44:08 am
Can we see some pictures of the decompressor assembly on the head?  Wondering if its valve may have somehow slipped it's moorings, fallen into the cylinder, and is holding the piston in place on the upstroke. If so, you may have gotten off lucky, relatively speaking. Don't force it!
« Last Edit: June 09, 2019, 01:54:35 am by Bilgemaster »
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Arizoni

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Reply #2 on: June 09, 2019, 02:30:37 am
Bilgemaster makes a good point.

Of course, when the clutch is pulled in, kicking the kick starter lever doesn't really cause the crankshaft to rotate.  It only rotates the gears in the transmission and the clutch disks.

It isn't until the clutch lever is released that the kick starter rotates the crankshaft.
Jim
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mrunderhill1975a

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Reply #3 on: June 09, 2019, 03:35:27 am
Same symptoms my Bullet had when the rotor let loose. Open the primary, check the primary chain. 


Bilgemaster

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Reply #4 on: June 09, 2019, 11:19:05 am
Same symptoms my Bullet had when the rotor let loose. Open the primary, check the primary chain.

I concur. A bound up primary chain would give the same symptoms. In fact, now that I think about it, it's probably more likely than the decompression valve landing "just so" more or less vertically on the piston.
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blasphemous

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Reply #5 on: June 09, 2019, 10:22:51 pm
Decompression valve looks ok. Primary also looks ok. Please see images here: https://imgur.com/a/vzdpLPf


Bilgemaster

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Reply #6 on: June 10, 2019, 12:35:49 am
Have you got a borescope or endoscope for a peek into the cylinder bore to check if anything is amiss in there and also behind and below the alternator rotor and stator? Here's a little USB kit at Wallyworld for less than 10 bucks that'll plug into an Android phone or laptop, which has fairly decent reviews.
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mrunderhill1975a

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Reply #7 on: June 10, 2019, 06:03:22 pm
If the primary is good, then you need to dig deeper.  The above mentioned video probe would be good to see if something is in the cylinder.  My next thought would be to open tappet door, and the points cover to see if anything is jammed there. Remove the valve covers and see if a valve has been sucked into chamber. Barring problems there, the timing cover would be next, perhaps a broken tooth on the oil pump spindle, broken tooth on timing gears, pinion gear, distributor shaft etc.  Try to consider it a puzzle that will take a while to complete.  Make it fun, half the fun of and RE is finding the problem, then fixing it.


Arizoni

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Reply #8 on: June 11, 2019, 02:20:39 am
Have you got a borescope or endoscope for a peek into the cylinder bore to check if anything is amiss in there and also behind and below the alternator rotor and stator? ...
I think a Endoscope is used by a Proctologist for examining things inside a small orifice.
A Borescope is used by a Gynecologist for examining things inside larger cavities.

Bah, ha, ha...  :o ;D ;D ;D 8)
Jim
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Bilgemaster

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Reply #9 on: June 11, 2019, 04:18:02 am
I think a Endoscope is used by a Proctologist for examining things inside a small orifice.
A Borescope is used by a Gynecologist for examining things inside larger cavities.

Bah, ha, ha...  :o ;D ;D ;D 8)

Well, we all have our hobbies...Personally I like to dub my "special footage" with Surf Music.

« Last Edit: June 11, 2019, 04:39:30 am by Bilgemaster »
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Unlucky_soul

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Reply #10 on: June 11, 2019, 05:19:08 am
This happened to a friend as well. One of the side valve that pushes the push rod got broken. Perhaps its that?


blasphemous

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Reply #11 on: June 12, 2019, 07:48:13 pm
Thanks guys, I will take a look at each item and figure this out, just bummed that this happened in prime riding season. I love riding my Iron Barrel :(


Kevin Mahoney

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Reply #12 on: June 12, 2019, 08:50:20 pm
I would agree that the primary looks OK. Just to be sure make sure it has clearance all of the way around between the rotor and the stator. .006 is the spec but for this purpose any clearance is OK. I is almost ALWAYS something simple and it tends to get overlooked. Also check to make sure your bike is in neutral. Sounds silly but please check

1. Put the bike in 4th gear and see if you can push it. If you can the engine is not frozen or locked up
2. Alternative approach is the use a socket and a good size ratchet/handle to see if the engine can be turned over at the nut holding the rotor on.


If it is frozen then lets get to the possibilities. We'll take this one step at at time
1. Get one of these from eBay - they are totally cool and cheap.https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=bore%20scope&ssPageName=GSTL

2. Stick it in the spark plug hole and see what there is to see. You are looking for a valve that might have dropped, a decomprossoer that has dropped, a vertical score in the cylinder that might indicate a broken ring.

3. open the tappet cover on the side and see if a valve jumped off of the lifter

4. Take off the valve covers covers and see if one of the rocker blocks have frozen
Best Regards,
Kevin Mahoney
www.cyclesidecar.com


Bilgemaster

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Reply #13 on: June 28, 2019, 02:50:00 pm
Been a couple weeks since the last post. Any thoughts on a likely culprit yet?
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mrunderhill1975a

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Reply #14 on: June 28, 2019, 06:20:30 pm
I am curious as well.


blasphemous

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Reply #15 on: July 12, 2019, 08:20:57 pm
Sorry for the late reply guys, got held up in a job search, adulting is hard :(  Ok I bought the cheapo boroscope of Walmart and it worked surprisingly well. I made a short video and everything looks clean, so the next step is the valve covers?

https://imgur.com/gallery/CtxXjMc


mrunderhill1975a

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Reply #16 on: July 12, 2019, 11:04:15 pm
That is very good video, I will have to purchase a borescope.  There is no impact to the piston so the valves are not blocking the piston movement. Unless the rockers have jammed, the valve train can be ruled out I think.  Tappets jammed the cams....? Can you open the quill bolt and stick the scope into the timing cover?
« Last Edit: July 12, 2019, 11:09:43 pm by mrunderhill1975a »


ace.cafe

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Reply #17 on: July 13, 2019, 02:23:22 pm
I would say that the next logical step is to remove the rocker covers and see if all is correct in there.
The pushrods can jump off(common), or rockers can seize(not common),
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blasphemous

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Reply #18 on: July 15, 2019, 08:02:27 pm
Ok will do both, Q on the rocker cover, can I reuse the gasket here? Also what is the tightening torque on the rocker cover bolts?

Thanks!


Adrian II

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Reply #19 on: July 15, 2019, 11:06:27 pm
If the gasket is not damaged I would re-use it with a smear of grease. Don't bother with a torque wrench, just nip the nuts up tight with a normal hand wrench.

A.
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blasphemous

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Reply #20 on: July 16, 2019, 03:14:17 am
The rockers and lifters look ok, here's a video I made. I put the bike in 4'th gear and kicked it and the bike lunges forward. thats how I shot this video. The kick starter won't travel beyond 3/4 of the total rotation.  Also still solidly stuck in neutral.

https://imgur.com/a/z6SttUx


tooseevee

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Reply #21 on: July 16, 2019, 12:38:51 pm
The rockers and lifters look ok, here's a video I made. I put the bike in 4'th gear and kicked it and the bike lunges forward. thats how I shot this video. The kick starter won't travel beyond 3/4 of the total rotation.  Also still solidly stuck in neutral.

https://imgur.com/a/z6SttUx

         If it's stuck in neutral, how could it lunge forward?
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blasphemous

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Reply #22 on: July 16, 2019, 04:51:18 pm
Sorry, I wasn't too clear, when th bike is in neutral, the kick starter won't budge unless I hold the clutch in. Now when I put the bike in 4'th gear then I am able to kick the kicker between 1/2 and 3/4'ths of the way. When I kick the kicker in 4'th gear, the bike moves forward and activates the valves as shown in the video.


mrunderhill1975a

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Reply #23 on: July 16, 2019, 05:36:16 pm
When the bike is on center stand and in neutral, can you grab the rear wheel and rotate it at all?
I am wondering if the problem is in the transmission.  This is a 4 speed gearbox?
The link below shows the path of the power through the gearbox. 
http://www.midlandbullets.co.uk/gearbox/gearbox.html
If the kick start turns when the clutch engaged, I believe that would rule out problems with gears 16 and 19.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2019, 06:16:44 pm by mrunderhill1975a »


blasphemous

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Reply #24 on: July 16, 2019, 06:03:30 pm
Yes I can move the rear wheel, in-fact I moved it out of the garage to get better light to shoot the last video.


mrunderhill1975a

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Reply #25 on: July 16, 2019, 06:36:10 pm
If kick won't budge when in neutral, by looking at the diagram, possibly a broken tooth on 15. 13, 11, 20, 23.


blasphemous

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Reply #26 on: July 16, 2019, 07:36:24 pm
Ohh boy, is the only way to verify this is to remove the gear box? How big a work would this be? I recently (within the last 2 years) converted to RH shift. Yes it is a 4-speed gearbox. What would cause something like this to break?
« Last Edit: July 16, 2019, 07:50:12 pm by blasphemous »


mrunderhill1975a

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Reply #27 on: July 17, 2019, 05:54:48 pm
Maybe we are getting ahead of ourselves.  I think you need to isolate the components one by one.  Ace suggested the rockers, but they seem ok.  So the next in the path would be the push rods, cam gears. But since you have found that there is a difference in movement dependent upon which gear it is in, that leads me to believe it could be in the gearbox.  To isolate the gearbox from the cam/pushrod/ crank assembly, you could remove the clutch/primary chain.  That job would take about 2hrs if you haven't done it before.
If still no movement with primary chain removed, that would direct you to the timing chest, I think.
If , on the other hand, you get movement of the piston with primary chain removed, that would direct you to the gearbox (broken tooth perhaps).  Getting inside the gearbox would take about one hour.

So, I think your dilemma is to either:
1) remove the primary chain to determine if the problem is in the gearbox or in cam/pushrod/ crank assembly .
2)Take a chance and open the gearbox looking for broken teeth.

Now that is just my opinion, and remember, I am no mechanic. So, it is up to you to roll the dice.  What do others in the group think the next step should be?
« Last Edit: July 17, 2019, 05:57:28 pm by mrunderhill1975a »


ace.cafe

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Reply #28 on: July 18, 2019, 05:09:11 am
I would like to see some verification that the engine turns. If you remove the spark plug, you should be able to move the engine with the kicker relatively easily without holding the clutch in. That would ease my mind that the engine isn't locked up.

You can watch the rockers operate when you push on the kicker.

If you verify engine turning, then you can investigate if the gearbox is stuck in a gear or something. You need to verify that you can get neutral.
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mrunderhill1975a

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Reply #29 on: July 18, 2019, 06:02:32 pm
I was looking at Ace's comment and thinking what method could be used to determine if stoppage is in engine or crank.  It occurred to me that since the primary chain case is open, you could put a wrench on the rotor nut, then attempt to rotate the crank counterclockwise.  Observe how the slack is taken out of the chain.  That is, if the crank moves and slack is taken up on the top of the chain run before the stoppage, that would suggest the blockage is in gearbox.

Conversely, if you then attempt to rotate the clutch assembly clockwise, and the slack is taken by the clutch assembly rotation before the  stoppage, that would suggest the blockage is in the engine components.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2019, 07:28:55 pm by mrunderhill1975a »


Arizoni

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Reply #30 on: July 18, 2019, 07:31:22 pm
If the sidecover is off exposing the primary drive chain I would remove the spark plug and then get a wrench that fits the bolt head on the crankshaft and try to turn it (and the crankshaft) counter clockwise.
If it didn't turn I would pull the clutch lever on the handlebars all the way in and try to rotate the bolt/crankshaft again.

Pulling the clutch lever in will release the clutch so if the problem is in the transmission the crankshaft should turn along with the primary chain and sprockets.

If trying to turn the crankshaft with the clutch lever pulled in doesn't allow the engine to turn, the problem is in the engine.
If it does allow the crankshaft to turn, the problem is in the transmission.
Jim
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mrunderhill1975a

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Reply #31 on: July 18, 2019, 09:40:20 pm
Yep, Arizona has it!


blasphemous

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Reply #32 on: July 29, 2019, 01:44:47 am
Hi, I can confirm that the piston moves. I did what Arizoni suggested both in gear and neutral and I am able to see the piston move, confirmed it 2 ways.
a) video
b) blocked the spark plug hole with my finger and felt for pressure.

I am also able to shift from neutral to any gear and back to neutral. So does this also not rule out transmission?

Thanks.


ace.cafe

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Reply #33 on: July 29, 2019, 03:28:46 pm
And you still cannot kick it with the kicker unless the clutch is in?

It mystifies me that everything turns okay by itself, yet when you try to use the kicker, you need to hold the clutch in.

There is some piece of evidence that is not being seen here. Maybe you should take it to a dealer and let him do a hands on troubleshooting?
« Last Edit: July 29, 2019, 03:35:56 pm by ace.cafe »
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mrunderhill1975a

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Reply #34 on: July 29, 2019, 05:19:00 pm
If trying to turn the crankshaft with the clutch lever pulled in allows the crankshaft to turn, the problem is in the transmission.

Let's recap,
1) The bike will only roll if the clutch pulled. Correct?
2) The bike will not roll in gear or even in neutral unless the clutch pulled? Correct?


blasphemous

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Reply #35 on: July 29, 2019, 06:03:11 pm
And you still cannot kick it with the kicker unless the clutch is in?

It mystifies me that everything turns okay by itself, yet when you try to use the kicker, you need to hold the clutch in.

There is some piece of evidence that is not being seen here. Maybe you should take it to a dealer and let him do a hands on troubleshooting?

I cannot kick the kicker in neutral only. I can kick the kicker in gear.


blasphemous

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Reply #36 on: July 29, 2019, 06:09:12 pm
If trying to turn the crankshaft with the clutch lever pulled in allows the crankshaft to turn, the problem is in the transmission.

Let's recap,
1) The bike will only roll if the clutch pulled. Correct?
2) The bike will not roll in gear or even in neutral unless the clutch pulled? Correct?

1) I can turn the crankshaft without touching the clutch lever both in gear(clockwise rotation) and in neutral(counter clockwise rotation) and the piston moves.
2) The bike will roll in neutral and gear.
3) I can change through the gears from neutral and back into neutral.
4) The piston is not stuck.
5) The rockers and tappets all work as should.

The only issue is that I cannot kick the kick start in neutral. I can kick in gear.


tooseevee

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Reply #37 on: July 29, 2019, 07:03:07 pm
    This is truly bizarre. And very interesting.
« Last Edit: July 30, 2019, 01:27:51 am by tooseevee »
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Arizoni

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Reply #38 on: July 29, 2019, 07:37:43 pm
1) I can turn the crankshaft without touching the clutch lever both in gear(clockwise rotation) and in neutral(counter clockwise rotation) and the piston moves.
2) The bike will roll in neutral and gear.
3) I can change through the gears from neutral and back into neutral.
4) The piston is not stuck.
5) The rockers and tappets all work as should.

The only issue is that I cannot kick the kick start in neutral. I can kick in gear.
I don't understand this "in gear clockwise" and "in neutral counter clockwise" stuff.

In other words, your comment #1 confuses me.  I guess it depends on which side of the motorcycle your on but if you are sitting on your butt on the left side with the side cover removed and the clutch is staring at you the only way the engine should be turned is counterclockwise.  If you are sitting on your butt on the right side of the motorcycle with the side cover removed, the crankshaft should look like it is being turned clockwise.

I can say I studied the pictures in the Hitchcock forum and can say, the kickstarter is driving the shaft that goes completely thru the transmission and engages the clutch.  If it can turn with the kick starter when the transmission is in gear, there is absolutely nothing I can see that would keep it from also turning when the transmission is out of gear. 

This is all very confusing.
Jim
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1999 Miata 10th Anniversary


blasphemous

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Reply #39 on: July 29, 2019, 10:10:25 pm
"I don't understand this "in gear clockwise" and "in neutral counter clockwise" stuff. " 

Sorry about the confusion, What I meant is that like you said, in neutral I was able to rotate the crankshaft nut counter-clockwise. When I put it in 2'nd gear it was a little harder to rotate it counter-clockwise (may be because it was in gear) and since I was using my computer to record the piston movement, I was using one hand and so I rotated it clockwise and it was easier to do so. I was sitting facing the primary chain.

I agree, this is really puzzling, I am going to open up the gearbox outer cover and check to make sure things are in order.


tooseevee

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Reply #40 on: July 30, 2019, 01:39:33 am
"I don't understand this "in gear clockwise" and "in neutral counter clockwise" stuff. " 

Sorry about the confusion, What I meant is that like you said, in neutral I was able to rotate the crankshaft nut counter-clockwise. When I put it in 2'nd gear it was a little harder to rotate it counter-clockwise (may be because it was in gear) and since I was using my computer to record the piston movement, I was using one hand and so I rotated it clockwise and it was easier to do so. I was sitting facing the primary chain.

I agree, this is really puzzling, I am going to open up the gearbox outer cover and check to make sure things are in order.

            Yes. When it's in gear it's harder to rotate the engine because it's in gear.

             When you turned it clockwise you were turning the engine backward.

              It's totally bizarre and I'm totally confused so I'll sign off with a Good Night and Good Luck.

              Did you really say a while back that the engine rotates with the kicker with the clutch lever pulled in?  ??? ??? ???

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blasphemous

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Reply #41 on: July 30, 2019, 02:46:49 am
Ok Update:

I was dinking around with the crankshaft nut and here is what I found:

Irrespective of whether in neutral or gear (I only tried this in second gear) the crank nut will turn 2 full rotations and then lockup. It will go no further and only go back in the reverse direction. If the cranknut has moved 2 full rotations in the clock wise direction, the kicker can be kicked all the way down at which point the crank nut has rotated full turns twice and the mechanism locks up. I now have to use the socket to turn the crank nut counter-clockwise and then I can kick it over again. I might be a little fuzzy about the direction and I will re-confirm that. But that is what I observe.

So basically irrespective of neutral or gear the range of motion is limited to 2 or 1/1/2 turns of the crankshaft nut. And depending on direction of the rotaion of crankshaft nut (I will confirm which direction) the kicker will kick all the way down at which point the whole things locks up and will only go the reverse direction. At this point the kicker will not work (locked up) and I have to use the socket wrench to reverse the direction of the crank-shaft nut.

Hope this gives a clue and again thanks for the trouble shooting guys.
« Last Edit: July 30, 2019, 02:50:11 am by blasphemous »


tooseevee

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Reply #42 on: July 30, 2019, 03:02:36 am
Ok Update:

I was dinking around with the crankshaft nut and here is what I found:

Irrespective of whether in neutral or gear (I only tried this in second gear) the crank nut will turn 2 full rotations and then lockup. It will go no further and only go back in the reverse direction. If the cranknut has moved 2 full rotations in the clock wise direction, the kicker can be kicked all the way down at which point the crank nut has rotated full turns twice and the mechanism locks up. I now have to use the socket to turn the crank nut counter-clockwise and then I can kick it over again. I might be a little fuzzy about the direction and I will re-confirm that. But that is what I observe.

So basically irrespective of neutral or gear the range of motion is limited to 2 or 1/1/2 turns of the crankshaft nut. And depending on direction of the rotaion of crankshaft nut (I will confirm which direction) the kicker will kick all the way down at which point the whole things locks up and will only go the reverse direction. At this point the kicker will not work (locked up) and I have to use the socket wrench to reverse the direction of the crank-shaft nut.

Hope this gives a clue and again thanks for the trouble shooting guys.

            Sounds like something is broken or something has broken off and is jamming one of the gears that meshes with another gear that rotates when the engine is turning over and is jamming in a certain specific spot every time. Maybe you should take the timing cover off and watch over on THAT side as it rotates?

             But this is just a S.W.A.G. and not to be taken to church and voted on.
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ace.cafe

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Reply #43 on: July 30, 2019, 05:37:50 am
If you hold the clutch in, does the engine still lock up after 2 turns, or can you turn it as much as you want with the clutch held in?

If it still locks up after 2 turns with the clutch held in, something is wrong with the engine.

If the engine can turn as much as you want with the clutch held in, then something is wrong in the gearbox.

You should never be trying to kick start the bike  in any gear. You only kick it in neutral.
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mrunderhill1975a

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Reply #44 on: July 30, 2019, 05:53:30 pm
The 2 or 1 and one half turns of the crank is a clue.
The cam gear would rotate one turn for each two turns of the crank. So, a broken tooth on the cam, or other timing side gear would be consistent with this observation.



blasphemous

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Reply #45 on: July 30, 2019, 08:21:49 pm
Update: Holding the clutch in makes no difference. I am still limited to 1 full rotation of the crank-shaft nut (in my previous post I said it was 2, but its actually one full rotation).


ace.cafe

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Reply #46 on: July 30, 2019, 08:45:41 pm
Engine has something wrong inside.
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tooseevee

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Reply #47 on: July 30, 2019, 09:51:12 pm
Dude,*

       1. When you turn the crankshaft CCW to the stopping point, is the piston at TDC?

       2. You did say you looked inside with your borescope?

         (* I've never called anyone Dude before. What's Wrong with me!)
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Arizoni

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Reply #48 on: July 31, 2019, 12:09:40 am
Because the engine locks up with 2 turns of the crankshaft, even with the clutch pulled in, I think mrunderhill1975a figured out what the problem is.

Pull the right side engine case cover to check out the timing gears.
After the cover has been removed, go back to the left side and try rotating the crankshaft again.  If it can be rotated more than 2 times without stopping, the problem might be with the oil pumps, the oil pump shaft or the worm gear that drives it.
If it still locks up with 2 turns, check the condition of the cam and crankshaft gears.   This includes the gear train that drive the distributor.

If they all look OK and there aren't any broken teeth on any of them it could be possible that there is something wrong with the distributor although I don't know what that problem might be.  There's not much in the distributor to lock up things.

Any more thoughts on this Ace?
« Last Edit: July 31, 2019, 12:13:18 am by Arizoni »
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tooseevee

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Reply #49 on: July 31, 2019, 12:50:04 am
Because the engine locks up with 2 turns of the crankshaft, even with the clutch pulled in, I think mrunderhill1975a figured out what the problem is.

Pull the right side engine case cover to check out the timing gears.
After the cover has been removed, go back to the left side and try rotating the crankshaft again.  If it can be rotated more than 2 times without stopping, the problem might be with the oil pumps, the oil pump shaft or the worm gear that drives it.
If it still locks up with 2 turns, check the condition of the cam and crankshaft gears.   This includes the gear train that drive the distributor.

If they all look OK and there aren't any broken teeth on any of them it could be possible that there is something wrong with the distributor although I don't know what that problem might be.  There's not much in the distributor to lock up things.

Any more thoughts on this Ace?
                                 

           He corrected this in Reply #46: He's getting one full turn lock to lock CCW at the crankshaft on the primary side.

           That's why I asked if it locks at TDC and got no answer.

           I think he needs to open the right side and watch very carefully as someone else rotates the engine from the crankshaft nut.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2019, 12:54:14 am by tooseevee »
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ace.cafe

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Reply #50 on: July 31, 2019, 01:36:11 am
Because the engine locks up with 2 turns of the crankshaft, even with the clutch pulled in, I think mrunderhill1975a figured out what the problem is.

Pull the right side engine case cover to check out the timing gears.
After the cover has been removed, go back to the left side and try rotating the crankshaft again.  If it can be rotated more than 2 times without stopping, the problem might be with the oil pumps, the oil pump shaft or the worm gear that drives it.
If it still locks up with 2 turns, check the condition of the cam and crankshaft gears.   This includes the gear train that drive the distributor.

If they all look OK and there aren't any broken teeth on any of them it could be possible that there is something wrong with the distributor although I don't know what that problem might be.  There's not much in the distributor to lock up things.

Any more thoughts on this Ace?

Hard to say exactly at this point. Some of the theories mentioned are plausible.

I would be pulling the timing cover to have a look. If the owner thinks he can get into taking down that side of the engine, then have at it. Be advised that there are some critical aspects of things inside the timing cover that require care and some knowledge when fiddling around with them.

Frankly, I am not too confident about the skill level of the owner here, and I worry a bit about having him pull stuff apart that might not get back together correctly.
It's up to him to determine if he is comfortable doing it.
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Reply #51 on: July 31, 2019, 03:57:10 am
Ace: Are there any particular pitfalls that come to mind in that timing case that our man should be most aware of if he cracks it open? Easily mislaid shims, bushings, washers or seals? Peculiarly fragile items requiring extra care or peculiar torque settings? That sort of thing? Is Snidal's guide a reliable resource in all respects of removal and reinstallation? I do recall his stating that it is a task not to be taken lightly or just out of mere curiosity.

I ask as one with no experience mucking about in an Enfield's timing case (albeit plenty in a Norton twin's) just for future reference.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2019, 04:53:52 am by Bilgemaster »
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ace.cafe

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Reply #52 on: July 31, 2019, 04:50:33 am
Ace: Are there any particular pitfalls that come to mind in that timing case that our man should be most aware of if he cracks it open? Easily mislaid shims, bushings, washers or seals? Peculiarly fragile items requiring extra care or torque settings. That sort of thing? Is Snidal's guide a reliable resource in all respects of removal and reinstallation? I do recall his stating that it is a task not to be taken lightly or just out of mere curiosity.

I ask as one with no experience mucking about in an Enfield's timing case (albeit plenty in a Norton twin's) just for future reference.
Yes, there's a lot of stuff like that. I will try to go over it more in the morning.

I would like to hear from the owner about exactly what happened when the bike quit running that caused this, or what sort of work was done to it before it happened. It could provide a clue.
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ace.cafe

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Reply #53 on: July 31, 2019, 01:08:33 pm
Ace: Are there any particular pitfalls that come to mind in that timing case that our man should be most aware of if he cracks it open? Easily mislaid shims, bushings, washers or seals? Peculiarly fragile items requiring extra care or peculiar torque settings? That sort of thing? Is Snidal's guide a reliable resource in all respects of removal and reinstallation? I do recall his stating that it is a task not to be taken lightly or just out of mere curiosity.

I ask as one with no experience mucking about in an Enfield's timing case (albeit plenty in a Norton twin's) just for future reference.

The timing cover gasket sets the end play for the cam gears, so it should not be damaged when removing the timing cover. If damaged, seek out one of the same thickness.

The timing chest is about 3/4 filled with oil. This creates a surface tension hold on the shims on the various shafts for the cams and idler gears, so they often come off when withdrawing the cover, and can get lost or mixed up. It is important to get the shims back on in the places where they were.

The worm gear is in engagement with the oil pump drive paddles, so it may need a bit of rotation to get the gear off the paddles. This can be made easier by removing the oil pumps first, but that complicates the whole procedure further, so some people prefer to leave them in.

Once the cover is off, be sure not to rotate the engine or idler gears if any of the cam gears or idler gears have come off. Otherwise, the ignition will be out of time with the engine, and it won't start, and you probably won't know why.

When you reassemble it, the timing chest needs to be manually refilled with oil via the tappet chamber drain holes, or else it will take too long to fill up by normal oil pump function, and some damage from lack of oil may occur.

It isn't a terribly difficult thing to do, but you need to know what you are doing, and what to watch out for.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2019, 01:11:45 pm by ace.cafe »
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blasphemous

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Reply #54 on: February 14, 2020, 01:07:45 am
Thank you Ace for the gotcha's. I pulled open the timing side cover. All the gears inside are looking good. As soon as I took the cover off  I was able to kick the bike over with out any stoppage. So like @Arizoni mentioned I suspect it might be the oil pump. I was unable to rotate the oil pump with my finger a complete turn. I also saw metal shavings on the paddles. I took the end cover off to inspect the oil pump and am unable to get the oil blocks and spindle off. When I took the end covers out (oil pump housing) I was able to freely rotate the oil pump spindle. I don't understand how the oil pump can limit the turning over of the engine.

Also sorry for not being able to get back earlier. Life got in the way and I had to shelve this whole project. Finally life has come back to normal and I am bale to work on the bike again.


blasphemous

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Reply #55 on: February 14, 2020, 01:09:50 am
Yes, there's a lot of stuff like that. I will try to go over it more in the morning.

I would like to hear from the owner about exactly what happened when the bike quit running that caused this, or what sort of work was done to it before it happened. It could provide a clue.

I was just kicking the bike over. Heard something snap on the timing side of the bike and ended up with this issue.


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Reply #56 on: February 16, 2020, 12:10:43 am
Send a photo of the timing cover/oil pump shaft when you get a chance.


ace.cafe

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Reply #57 on: February 16, 2020, 05:30:08 am
The symptoms and inspection show oil pump system problems, obviously.

Both pump covers should be removed, and remove both pumps and also drive spindle. Keep track of the oil pumps because they are different, but can fit on either side, so don't get them swapped.

It is possible that the oil pumps can bind up when the pump covers are put on. Of that is the case, you can use 2 gaskets on each one to provide more clearance room. Sometimes when new pumps are installed, they can bind on the covers, or in rare circumstances they don't fit the housings perfectly and can bind up while rotating. Get new pumps if that is the case.

If you saw metal filings, something has worn or broken, so the whole pump and drive system parts need to come out for inspection. If the pump spindle paddles have broken or are very curved on the ends from wear, then you need a new spindle and worm gear. BTW, the worm gear is a left hand thread, so you turn it the opposite way to loosen/tighten.

It is not a complicated system, so it shouldn't be much trouble.
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blasphemous

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Reply #58 on: February 18, 2020, 09:16:02 pm
Please find the pictures of the timing case and gears. I will upload the pictures from the oil pump ASAP. You can see from these pictures that I found broken metal parts. I do not know the origin of these as everything looks correct in the timing case. The oil spindle paddles also seem unbroken.

https://imgur.com/gallery/B38kfUW


ace.cafe

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Reply #59 on: February 18, 2020, 09:35:24 pm
What do the broken metal parts look like?
Where were the broken metal parts found?
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Reply #60 on: February 18, 2020, 09:59:38 pm
I think those shards are from the oil pump drive sector gear that is driven by the worm on the crank end. The next pics should tell, either way.
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blasphemous

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Reply #61 on: February 18, 2020, 10:19:04 pm
What do the broken metal parts look like?
Where were the broken metal parts found?

Hi Ace, I have attached the pictures of the metal shards and where they were found in the timing case on the link in my above post. I uploaded the pics to imgur as I took a bunch. Please let me know if it does not open for you, I will figure out another way to upload. Thanks!


mrunderhill1975a

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Reply #62 on: February 18, 2020, 10:29:50 pm
I attempted to look at your photos but my browser just showed black screen.  Is there a trick to viewing the photos?


cyrusb

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Reply #63 on: February 18, 2020, 10:41:22 pm
I've seen them and we need a shot of the inside bottom of the timing cover.
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blasphemous

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Reply #64 on: February 18, 2020, 11:09:50 pm
I attempted to look at your photos but my browser just showed black screen.  Is there a trick to viewing the photos?

Please try drop box

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/xvqcby37iglhe2c/AACOKlpxJAOGf4-joPrx8VvGa?dl=0


cyrusb

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Reply #65 on: February 18, 2020, 11:40:17 pm
we need a shot of the inside bottom of the timing cover. Where the oil pump drive gear is
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blasphemous

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Reply #66 on: February 19, 2020, 12:14:52 am
we need a shot of the inside bottom of the timing cover. Where the oil pump drive gear is

Please let me know if you need other pictures. Still trying to free the oil pump blocks. They refuse to come out. Would it help to remove the oil filter?

https://imgur.com/gallery/9ZHQkLl


cyrusb

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Reply #67 on: February 19, 2020, 01:41:50 am
Well, I thought for sure that those metal shards were the "teeth" of the oil pump drive in the cover. But it doesn't look that way. Main bearing parts maybe? Anyway, this has to be some kind of record thread. Over 6000 views, over 50 informed entries and still zilch.
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ace.cafe

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Reply #68 on: February 19, 2020, 02:56:30 am
Hi Ace, I have attached the pictures of the metal shards and where they were found in the timing case on the link in my above post. I uploaded the pics to imgur as I took a bunch. Please let me know if it does not open for you, I will figure out another way to upload. Thanks!
Okay, I didn't scroll down before, and didn't see the pic of the broken parts.
I have seen the pic now.

I am not sure what those pieces are from.  A guess might be that they could be from an oil seal behind the timing pinion gear on the crank, but it seems unlikely. It is not from the pump drive spindle. They look too big to have come down from the top end thru the oil drain holes in the tappet chamber.
Not really sure what they are.
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mrunderhill1975a

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Reply #69 on: February 20, 2020, 01:43:11 am
At first glance, I would suspect those are broken pieces of a valve stem cap.  The stem caps would have to be  very ground up to make it through the oil return passages.  Open the valve covers and see if you still have both of the valve stem caps.  Also, open the tappet door and see if there are any pieces in there.  See the attached photo and tell me if it looks the same.


cyrusb

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Reply #70 on: February 20, 2020, 12:00:35 pm
Lifter parts? They have a radius like a guide might have. Wish there was something in the shot for scale.
« Last Edit: February 21, 2020, 09:01:09 pm by cyrusb »
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blasphemous

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Reply #71 on: February 20, 2020, 03:45:25 pm
At first glance, I would suspect those are broken pieces of a valve stem cap.  The stem caps would have to be  very ground up to make it through the oil return passages.  Open the valve covers and see if you still have both of the valve stem caps.  Also, open the tappet door and see if there are any pieces in there.  See the attached photo and tell me if it looks the same.
Hi mrunderhill when you say valve covers you are talking about rocker covers right? I will open it and check it out. I will also look at the tappets. I have scheduled this weekend to thoroughly inspect all that area.


blasphemous

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Reply #72 on: February 20, 2020, 03:47:52 pm
Also can you please advise how to remove the oil pump blocks attached to the spindle? They are like vacuum stuck in the housing. I used a thread run around the piston to wiggle it free, but no luck. The oil filter is still in the housing, would removing that help break the suction?


cyrusb

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Reply #73 on: February 20, 2020, 04:15:34 pm
Can you kick it through(carefully) now that the timing cover is off and those shards are out? Do it by hand. Take the spark plug out if it it isn't already. Oil pump suction?Do you have the end caps off?
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blasphemous

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Reply #74 on: February 20, 2020, 04:28:16 pm
Can you kick it through(carefully) now that the timing cover is off and those shards are out? Do it by hand. Take the spark plug out if it it isn't already. Oil pump suction?Do you have the end caps off?

Yes I can kick thru just fine, I tried it as soon as I removed the timing cover and was able to kick without any obstruction. Yes I have the end caps off and am able to rotate the spindle and see the oil suction blocks rotate, just not able to get them out of the housing.


cyrusb

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Reply #75 on: February 20, 2020, 04:33:16 pm
I would not sweat the oil pump right now, it sounds fine. You need to know where those shards came from. It's hard to tell but that radius on one of the shards may suggest the bottom of the lifter guide. Unadjust your valves (if needed)at t.d.c and slide the cams out.
« Last Edit: February 21, 2020, 08:59:58 pm by cyrusb »
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mrunderhill1975a

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Reply #76 on: February 20, 2020, 05:19:03 pm
The valve stem cap on the top of each valve, just between the rocker arm and the valve stem.  See part 18 in the attached diagram. If this valve stem cap came loose and was broken into small pieces, the fragments could possibly fall down around the oil return through the tappet box, then directly onto the timing gears which could grind them further and prevent movement of the timing gears.  Pure speculation on my part.  When you remove the tappet door and rocker covers you should be able to look between the valve stem and rockers and confirm or rule out this possibility.  Another possibility would be parts 16 (valve stem keepers) those would have portions that are semicircular before they broke.
« Last Edit: February 20, 2020, 05:50:16 pm by mrunderhill1975a »


cyrusb

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Reply #77 on: February 20, 2020, 06:22:37 pm
MrRunderhill, the op did say he heard a sound before the lockup. Perhaps It was a valve shedding a keeper? You could be onto something there.
 
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ace.cafe

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Reply #78 on: February 20, 2020, 09:14:41 pm
Also can you please advise how to remove the oil pump blocks attached to the spindle? They are like vacuum stuck in the housing. I used a thread run around the piston to wiggle it free, but no luck. The oil filter is still in the housing, would removing that help break the suction?
The oil pumps are not held in by anything, once you have the covers off. The ends of the drive spindle have pins that stick thru the bottoms of the pump plungers. The pump discs just pull out. Just pull them straight out, so that the plungers can come straight off the spindle pins. Nothing holds those pump discs in. However, if they were not fitted properly, they can get bound up in there, and jammed. This has been seen to occur sometimes when installing new pumps. Some parts are not real accurately made.

I'm not saying that the pumps are your primary problem, but if they don't turn, they could be one part of the problem.

I agree that finding where those broken parts came from is job number one.
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blasphemous

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Reply #79 on: February 22, 2020, 11:22:34 pm
ok so I opened up the rocker covers and thought I saw debris, hard to tell, but I think it might be the source of the metal fragment. It sure looks consistent with the broken part. It is kinda hard to see. Not sure if this is the same thing mrunderhill mentioned. Just for kicks I checked to see if the holes were big enough for the shard to travel from the rocker area through the holes in the tappet box into the timing chest and sure enough it was. Both pieces could easily travel from the rocker area to the timing chest area. It appears that both the intake and exhaust side valve stems have this crack. So what do you guys think?
« Last Edit: February 23, 2020, 12:29:32 am by blasphemous »


cyrusb

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Reply #80 on: February 23, 2020, 12:31:36 am
So , we have a winner..After 6540 views and 79 informed replies.
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mrunderhill1975a

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Reply #81 on: February 23, 2020, 05:28:48 am
It looks like one "keeper" is missing and one has that crack which is ready to go flying.
I don't think there is a way to replace the "keepers" without removing the head and using a valve spring compressor.  But this would be a good reason to decoke the head.


ace.cafe

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Reply #82 on: February 23, 2020, 05:59:22 pm
It's hard for me to see the detail in the photos, but it appears that it could be a broken lash cap. If it is that, it can be easily replaced by just removing the rocker, pulling the lash cap off, and putting on a new one.

In any case, even if I am wrong, you will be removing the rockers anyway.
Now is the time to warn you that the threads in the aluminum head strip out extremely easily, and are not easily repaired. The little nuts on the rocker blocks only get 5 ft-lbs torque when tightening. No more than that. A lot of people have stripped out those stud holes when tightening, so be careful.
I don't care what the workshop manual or Pete Snidal say. 5 ft-lbs is the max safe torque on those rocker block nuts.
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blasphemous

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Reply #83 on: February 24, 2020, 05:40:54 pm
I have never removed the rockers before, is it as simple as undoing the 4 nuts on the top or should I loosen the tappets before hand? Ok noted 5ft-lbs of torque.


ace.cafe

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Reply #84 on: February 24, 2020, 09:37:48 pm
I have never removed the rockers before, is it as simple as undoing the 4 nuts on the top or should I loosen the tappets before hand? Ok noted 5ft-lbs of torque.

Yes.
Set the engine to TDC on the compression stroke just like you would when adjusting pushrods. There will be no pressure on the rocker arms there.
Then, just loosen off the rocker block nuts and take off the top half of the block and the rocker arm. You can then access the top of the valve where the lash cap is, and also the other valve train hardware.
The lash caps just pull off the valve stems, but they might be a little stubborn. Nothing else holds them on the stem.
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Reply #85 on: February 24, 2020, 11:18:13 pm
I agree with Ace, remove the rockers per his instructions. It looks to me that in addition to the lash caps, you are missing one or more of the valve spring retainers (keepers).  When you get the rockers off, take another photo.


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Reply #86 on: February 25, 2020, 04:49:59 pm
I absolutely love the finish on those rocker arms. It's hard to imagine how it could be any uglier. Mine look the same, and I know it doesn't affect performance(although all those gouges are just asking to be cracks) but spend an extra 30 seconds on the grinder! How are those details on the new bikes?
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blasphemous

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Reply #87 on: February 25, 2020, 11:26:52 pm
ok we have good news and bad news. The good news is we found the culprit, the bad news is I don't believe we have all the shards accounted for. Also the washer on the intake side seems deformed compared to the exhaust side. What do you guys think?  Thank you all for helping me guys! I owe you all a beer.
« Last Edit: February 25, 2020, 11:35:57 pm by blasphemous »


blasphemous

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Reply #88 on: February 25, 2020, 11:29:49 pm
I agree with Ace, remove the rockers per his instructions. It looks to me that in addition to the lash caps, you are missing one or more of the valve spring retainers (keepers).  When you get the rockers off, take another photo.

By keepers you mean the part no 16 in the diagram you posted? If so they both appear to be there


ace.cafe

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Reply #89 on: February 26, 2020, 04:18:45 am
ok we have good news and bad news. The good news is we found the culprit, the bad news is I don't believe we have all the shards accounted for. Also the washer on the intake side seems deformed compared to the exhaust side. What do you guys think?  Thank you all for helping me guys! I owe you all a beer.
It definitely looks like there are 2 different kinds of upper retainers on it.
Probably it had some valve work, and somebody used something they had laying around.

I think it should be inspected closer, with the head off, in case other things are amiss. Ideally, the original replacement valve train parts should be installed. They are not expensive.

However, if you are not comfortable doing that, you could just replace the lash caps and hope for the best.
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Reply #90 on: February 26, 2020, 05:31:38 pm
It definitely looks like there are 2 different kinds of upper retainers on it.
Probably it had some valve work, and somebody used something they had laying around.

I think it should be inspected closer, with the head off, in case other things are amiss. Ideally, the original replacement valve train parts should be installed. They are not expensive.

However, if you are not comfortable doing that, you could just replace the lash caps and hope for the best.

Ace, I can with great confidence say that no valve work has been done on it. I bought the bike from the original owner who bought it brand new and put 300 miles on it. He rode it for 1 year and then parked it for 10 years, which is when I bought it. I even have the original sales receipt some where.

If you think this needs a closer inspection then I am happy to take the head out as long as I can get advise from you folks, as I have not done work like this before. It will be a great way for me to learn. Please tell me where to start, I take it I need a valve spring compression tool, where can I buy one? I have a good tool set for general maintenance, but can buy these other specialty tools if I need them. So where do I begin?


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Reply #91 on: February 26, 2020, 05:35:54 pm
It looks like a keeper to me as well. Not a very common failure but tell that to the guy that has one. I would also inspect the inner valve springs which you're at it. Early ones (95-2000) routinely failed.
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blasphemous

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Reply #92 on: February 26, 2020, 05:44:07 pm
It looks like a keeper to me as well. Not a very common failure but tell that to the guy that has one. I would also inspect the inner valve springs which you're at it. Early ones (95-2000) routinely failed.

Thanks Kevin, I think so too, off all my bikes I just love my Iron Barrel, maybe its the fact that I resurrected it from dead, there is a definite pride when I ride it.

Also you bring up a good point, when going through this if you folks think, certain stock parts can be replaced with better ones then please suggest it. Its not everyday that one takes out the head.


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Reply #93 on: February 26, 2020, 05:59:45 pm
Taking the head off is not very difficult and only takes few hours to do after you do it once.  The learning experience is great fun. The main thing to watch out for is not breaking the fins.  The head is usually stuck to the cylinder and first-timers are tempted to take a screw-driver and lever the head off, don't do this.  Also, first timers are tempted to hit the fins with a hammer, don't to that.  I place a short block of wood under the intake (after the carb removed) and use a  rubber hammer to smack the wood.  Alternating between the intake and exhaust.  Persistent smacking will eventually lead to the head movement.  Take your time.


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Reply #94 on: February 26, 2020, 08:42:26 pm
Head R&I isn't hard. The only special tool required is for compressing the valve springs. The 'normal' ones sold for automotive use don't work on these heads as there isn't adequate clearance on the spring side. Use whatever the experts here advise you to use.

I had two different compressors and neither worked on the Bullet. I cheated and just checked my valves for leakage, found none and slapped the used head on.  8)  Not what you can get away with here.
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ace.cafe

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Reply #95 on: February 26, 2020, 08:48:46 pm
Ace, I can with great confidence say that no valve work has been done on it. I bought the bike from the original owner who bought it brand new and put 300 miles on it. He rode it for 1 year and then parked it for 10 years, which is when I bought it. I even have the original sales receipt some where.

If you think this needs a closer inspection then I am happy to take the head out as long as I can get advise from you folks, as I have not done work like this before. It will be a great way for me to learn. Please tell me where to start, I take it I need a valve spring compression tool, where can I buy one? I have a good tool set for general maintenance, but can buy these other specialty tools if I need them. So where do I begin?

If you are certain about no head work having been done, then perhaps my perception of the upper retainers is incorrect.
Are the upper retainers different on intake than exhaust? Because they are supposed to be the same.

Regarding the keeper, it requires the head coming off to fix it. At that time, I would look at anything on the head, especially the valve train parts, and replace anything that doesn't look right.

Yes, you will need a valve spring compressor. You can buy a RE factory tool, or you can get a suitable loaner for free at any Ace Auto Parts and probably Advance too. It won't be a perfect tool for our heads, but it is close enough to work, and I have removed valves with one of those loaners before.
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Reply #96 on: February 26, 2020, 10:16:52 pm
If you are certain about no head work having been done, then perhaps my perception of the upper retainers is incorrect.
Are the upper retainers different on intake than exhaust? Because they are supposed to be the same.

Regarding the keeper, it requires the head coming off to fix it. At that time, I would look at anything on the head, especially the valve train parts, and replace anything that doesn't look right.

Yes, you will need a valve spring compressor. You can buy a RE factory tool, or you can get a suitable loaner for free at any Ace Auto Parts and probably Advance too. It won't be a perfect tool for our heads, but it is close enough to work, and I have removed valves with one of those loaners before.

When you refer to retainers what part number in this diagram are you referring to? When I look at the intake side I see what appears to be a washer with a gap in it mangled. Attaching the picture of exhaust side washer which looks fine.


blasphemous

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Reply #97 on: February 26, 2020, 10:18:11 pm
Taking the head off is not very difficult and only takes few hours to do after you do it once.  The learning experience is great fun. The main thing to watch out for is not breaking the fins.  The head is usually stuck to the cylinder and first-timers are tempted to take a screw-driver and lever the head off, don't do this.  Also, first timers are tempted to hit the fins with a hammer, don't to that.  I place a short block of wood under the intake (after the carb removed) and use a  rubber hammer to smack the wood.  Alternating between the intake and exhaust.  Persistent smacking will eventually lead to the head movement.  Take your time.

Good points thank you!


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Reply #98 on: February 26, 2020, 10:20:40 pm
I take it I need a valve spring compression tool, where can I buy one?
Valve spring compressor options were discussed in a few threads on this forum, as you'll see if you do a search.  The most recent discussion I recall was here:  https://forum.classicmotorworks.com/index.php?topic=27655.msg316647#msg316647


ace.cafe

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Reply #99 on: February 26, 2020, 11:24:08 pm
When you refer to retainers what part number in this diagram are you referring to? When I look at the intake side I see what appears to be a washer with a gap in it mangled. Attaching the picture of exhaust side washer which looks fine.
Upper retainer is #15 in the exploded diagram.
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Reply #100 on: February 28, 2020, 12:19:42 am
How was it running before the lockup? If it was good, and all you found was the lash cap failure, why not just fix what's wrong and go for a ride? Thats what I would do, and I have all the tools and experience needed to "Do" the head. It's an old Bullet, mine smokes ,drools a bit at the head joint and I think it has a drinking problem but it still does the job. My two cents... EDIT, But if it ran badly and you must take off the head try roping the cylinder through the spark plug hole. Do it at t.d.c or with the pushrods out so you don't bend a valve. Use a wrench on the crank nut or even try the kickstarter first.Works every time. But like I said earlier, If its not broken why fix it? It only has 300 miles right? Enjoy ,
« Last Edit: February 28, 2020, 01:08:31 am by cyrusb »
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Reply #101 on: February 28, 2020, 12:38:31 am
Where I live, there's still a month or so before I'd really miss being able to ride.  If there was anything in need of fixing on my bike, I'd want to get at it now and have it finished before mid April.

Too bad it doesn't have the decency to break down in late November.  Last time it was late May.  Cruel Fate!


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Reply #102 on: May 21, 2020, 11:40:20 pm
Hello Everyone,
An update, I finally received the lash cap from Hitchcocks and am now in the process of putting everything back. After much consideration with all your advise I decided against removing the head. I have been reading on Snidal's manual and keeping all that in mind I had a cpl of Q's

a) how much should I tighten the timing cover bolts?
b) How do I check the oil flow to rockers? Should I just uncrew the nut where the feed lines start on the engine block?

I put the lash caps on and the rockers and tightened them up to 5ft-lbs of torque like Ace said. Everything looks good.
Thanks for the help. I am just pumped to get this riding again. I hope all of you are safe and healthy in these crazy uncertain times.


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Reply #103 on: May 22, 2020, 11:56:02 am
Oil feed tube I'd loosen the top banjo bolts to make sure oil is getting through to the top. It won't gush out at idle, just dribble.
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Reply #104 on: May 23, 2020, 10:53:18 pm
Oil feed tube I'd loosen the top banjo bolts to make sure oil is getting through to the top. It won't gush out at idle, just dribble.

Thank you, will loosen it there and check.

I put the timing cover back on and now the kick starter won't budge. Is there a connection here? I did not tighten the screws excessively, just fit the cover all the way in slowly. Any idea why this may be?

ok searching the forum gave me several hints,
a) size of gasket can matter, I used the thin green aftermarket one, could this be the reason? Should I use 2 gaskets instead of one? I also used 2 gaskets on the oil pump cover as it allowed for freer motion of the pump using just the thumb.
b) It talks about shims on the gear, but I did not remove any of these. So I am thinking this might not be the problem.

Also for the gasket, I just used grease, is this ok or should I use a gasket sealant?

Thank you
« Last Edit: May 23, 2020, 11:09:20 pm by blasphemous »


ace.cafe

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Reply #105 on: May 23, 2020, 11:49:52 pm
If you loosen the timing cover and the engine can turn, you have too thin of a gasket. Put on 2 gaskets and see if that solves it.
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Reply #106 on: May 24, 2020, 05:15:04 pm
Quite possible, there are a lot of gaskets around at the moments made out of green material which are too thin, watch out for 5 speed gearbox end cover gaskets as well.

A.
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blasphemous

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Reply #107 on: May 24, 2020, 09:42:30 pm
ok I doubt it is the gaskets (I doubled up, interestingly the OEM gasket, also green, is thicker than the after market one). I slowly fitted the timing cover and tapped in using a rubber mallet, all the while kicking over using the kick start to mesh the oil spindle. At barely 1/4 of the way in the kicker locks up. Viewing inside I can see that the protrusions off of the idler gears are barely in the housing. So its all about the crank gears. I have attached some pictures. You can see that the crank gears have no shims on them, only the idler gears. Is this correct?

One of the pictures shows the gap at  which kicker locks up
« Last Edit: May 24, 2020, 10:26:47 pm by blasphemous »


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Reply #108 on: May 24, 2020, 11:12:45 pm
By crank gears, do you mean the cam gears?

If you haven't disturbed the primary/clutch side something else is jamming. Have you checked that a pushrod hasn't jumped out and get stuck?

A.
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Reply #109 on: May 24, 2020, 11:27:26 pm
I see you've put grease in the holes in the timing cover where the shafts for the pinion gears locate. If there's too much in there it could cause a hydraulic lock and prevent the cover going fully on.
Paul W.


blasphemous

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Reply #110 on: May 24, 2020, 11:57:39 pm
By crank gears, do you mean the cam gears?

If you haven't disturbed the primary/clutch side something else is jamming. Have you checked that a pushrod hasn't jumped out and get stuck?

A.

Yes sir, the cam gears that lift the pushrods. When the cover is off, I can kickstart all I want.


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Reply #111 on: May 25, 2020, 12:00:58 am
I see you've put grease in the holes in the timing cover where the shafts for the pinion gears locate. If there's too much in there it could cause a hydraulic lock and prevent the cover going fully on.

Yes, you are correct I lightly greased it considering they rotate in there, I was wondering the same thing is its causing some sort of a vacum lock. I will take out the excess grease. Also wondering if the gears will rotate again once the cover is fitted all the way thru with two gaskets. do these wholes in the cover a tapered fit where they open up right at the end?


ace.cafe

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Reply #112 on: May 25, 2020, 12:12:17 am
There normally are very thin thrust washers on the outboard sides of the cams, on the shafts between the cams and the timing cover. These set end-play for the cams.

From what I can see in the pics, the cams and idler gears are positioned okay. I notice what appears to be some scuffing the the cam spindles, as if something may be binding on them when trying to push the cover on. Is this the timing cover that was on there when the bike was running, or a replacement?

I will take a guess based on the gap width of the timing cover being held away from seating.
I would take those spacers off the idler gears and see it the timing cover will go all the way on then.

Did you remove the idler gears off their shafts at any time?
« Last Edit: May 25, 2020, 12:37:42 am by ace.cafe »
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blasphemous

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Reply #113 on: May 25, 2020, 12:59:55 am
There normally are very thin thrust washers on the outboard sides of the cams, on the shafts between the cams and the timing cover. These set end-play for the cams.

I did not find these thrust washers on the cams, I very carefully removed the cover when I did initially keeping in mind these shims and washers and it was exactly as in the picture. Should I buy these on Hitchcocks?

From what I can see in the pics, the cams and idler gears are positioned okay. I notice what appears to be some scuffing the the cam spindles, as if something may be binding on them when trying to push the cover on. Is this the timing cover that was on there when the bike was running, or a replacement?

Yes I noticed that too, I believe it is the cover sockets into which these protrusions fit. Yes this is the original timing cover. I am thinking that the cam gear rides up on the socket causing the scuff marks

I will take a guess based on the gap width of the timing cover being held away from seating.
I would take those spacers off the idler gears and see it the timing cover will go all the way on then.

Actually the timing cover does go all the way in, the picture where I have it half way in, is the gap point where the kickstart locks up. Or did I mis-understand your Q?

Did you remove the idler gears off their shafts at any time?

No sir did not touch it.
« Last Edit: May 25, 2020, 01:02:42 am by blasphemous »


ace.cafe

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Reply #114 on: May 25, 2020, 01:06:10 am
I'm running out of guesses.

Oil pumps binding?
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Reply #115 on: May 25, 2020, 01:51:31 am
Hi Ace, the thrust washer you talked about is part 11 in the diagram here? If yes, how many would I need ? I understand that I have to play with the amount, but a rough idea to order ? Thanks!

https://www.hitchcocksmotorcycles.com/partsbook-pages/2057


ace.cafe

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Reply #116 on: May 25, 2020, 07:09:16 am
Hi Ace, the thrust washer you talked about is part 11 in the diagram here? If yes, how many would I need ? I understand that I have to play with the amount, but a rough idea to order ? Thanks!

https://www.hitchcocksmotorcycles.com/partsbook-pages/2057
Yes, part number 11.
I typically see just one per shaft, but it would depend on how thick the timing cover gasket is.
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Reply #117 on: May 25, 2020, 12:35:47 pm
If you can kickstart all you want with the timing cover off, the timing cover must be where the issue is.

It will either be clearance issues around the cams or related to the oil pump drive as Ace says. Sounds like you aren't getting the oil pump worm and the gear teeth on the oil pump spindle to mesh properly if the oil pump shaft itself is spinning freely. Depending on manufacturing tolerances (ha ha!) your engine might be happier with a worm drive with the bonded in rubber seal for the crank oil feed, for some reason these have a slightly smaller outside diameter and can mesh more easily where clearance is too tight.

I had an issue on my AVL hybrid, the bonded rubber seal worm (with the rubber burnt out to fit the AVL crankshaft) looked a bit rough so I bought a new worm (no bonded-in seal) and it was too tight. I also suspected not enough cam end-float until I saw the state of the new worm after only a few miles. I checked the one I had removed more closely, it was actually fine and fitted perfectly, end of problem.

Not much help to you if you already have the smaller O/O worm fitted - is there any unusual wear on the worm or oil pump spindle gear teeth?

A.
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Reply #118 on: June 02, 2020, 12:37:01 am
If you can kickstart all you want with the timing cover off, the timing cover must be where the issue is.

Yes sir, on further dwelling on this issue I realized that everything checks out, it must be the meshing of the worm gear with the oil pump spindle, I took off the spark plug to reduce the compression to easily kickover, hoping this helps in meshing. I initially thought the stub protrusions on which the gears are mounted also rotate and if that might be the issue, but they are static, they don't move. I have a bonded in rubber worm, and it looks fine. The grooves all look great. I was missing the shim on the cam gears and I ordered of hitch cocks, currently waiting for that part before I try again. Please wish me luck.





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Reply #119 on: July 09, 2020, 06:06:20 pm
Hi all,
Got the shims from Hitchcocks and put the timing cover back on, meshed the gears, filled the fluids back in and attempted to start the bike, immediate violent kickback, enough to spit the carb out of its housing. Is it possible that my timing got messed up? I am able to kick the bike over, but when I start it mostly backfires.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2020, 06:44:32 pm by blasphemous »


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Reply #120 on: July 09, 2020, 06:52:18 pm
If the cam gears are timed by the timing marks you could still have disturbed the ignition timing. It's probably best to mark the idler and contact-breaker drive pinion teeth before removing the cams. Sorry if that was a bit late!

A.
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Reply #121 on: July 09, 2020, 09:23:02 pm
Yes it is possible.
You have to check your ignition timing to see if it is synchronized with the crankshaft.
Do the timi,g procedure, and if the contact breaker is not opening at the rcpected timing position, then it is off. Exactly how far off is unknown until you investigate wahat changed it.

As Adrian said, it is possible that the distributor idler gears may have gotten moved when you were working with the cams. This is not unusual if you are unfamiliar with working on these engines. It can be troubleshot pretty easily.
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Reply #122 on: July 09, 2020, 11:31:51 pm
Thank you Adrian and Ace, not a problem, now I know. I did disturb the distributor-idler gears as I was playing with the cam gears, they slipped out and when I put them back in I matched the divet markings on the cam gears so they align up as they rotate but since the idler gears have no such marking they probably got moved a notch or two. I will check when I set the timing how off they got. Getting close and getting excited. 


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Reply #123 on: July 16, 2020, 05:15:41 am
Blistering Barnacles, my timing is way off. My points open just as the piston starts to compress. Unfortunately I don't have sufficient adjustment on the backplate.
I read on this article on Hitchcocks and it says "its easy to extract the points cam and auto advance unit off its taper and reposition"

https://accessories.hitchcocksmotorcycles.com/core/media/media.nl?id=188334&c=1062795&h=2aa354134d7abed06b46&_xt=.pdf

This is the tool (I think) Anybody got experience with this?

https://accessories.hitchcocksmotorcycles.com/accessory-shop/tools-engine/9553

I thought was really close :(


blasphemous

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Reply #124 on: July 16, 2020, 05:22:38 am
In this video he makes adjustments to take out cam backlash. I did not see this in my bike(1999), was this introduced in a later model?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TIL-fTzpqHU


Adrian II

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Reply #125 on: July 16, 2020, 11:05:45 am
Compensating for backlash in the cam and idler gears is a good idea on ANY older Bullet, I'm told it can affect the ignition timing by up to 10°. Crank-mounted electronic ignitions on more recent Royal Enfields don't have this issue.

By the way, I wouldn't bother with the adjustable cam spindles as fitted on the Electra-X and other AVL models, if you use these on an older Bullet you might succeed in quietening the cam gears a bit, but then it just moves the backlash further up the gear chain between the inlet cam and the first idler gear and will be no help for the ignition timing.

A.
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ace.cafe

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Reply #126 on: July 16, 2020, 12:36:36 pm
Blistering Barnacles, my timing is way off. My points open just as the piston starts to compress. Unfortunately I don't have sufficient adjustment on the backplate.
I read on this article on Hitchcocks and it says "its easy to extract the points cam and auto advance unit off its taper and reposition"

https://accessories.hitchcocksmotorcycles.com/core/media/media.nl?id=188334&c=1062795&h=2aa354134d7abed06b46&_xt=.pdf

This is the tool (I think) Anybody got experience with this?

https://accessories.hitchcocksmotorcycles.com/accessory-shop/tools-engine/9553

I thought was really close :(
It is probably off by a tooth or two on the idler gear.

Anyway, it is easy to change bt loosening the center bolt in the distributor shaft, and the giving the end of the shaft a good sharp crosswise whack with a plastic screwdriver handle. That breaks the hold of the taper, and you can move it around as you please.
Home of the Fireball 535 !


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Reply #127 on: July 16, 2020, 08:51:10 pm
It is probably off by a tooth or two on the idler gear.

Anyway, it is easy to change bt loosening the center bolt in the distributor shaft, and the giving the end of the shaft a good sharp crosswise whack with a plastic screwdriver handle. That breaks the hold of the taper, and you can move it around as you please.

Thanks Ace, is it like how they show in this video? There is an interesting way how he changes the timing without even using the backplate, he seems to use the governor location itself.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u8A9xCefpN8


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Reply #128 on: July 16, 2020, 09:26:04 pm
Governor?



A.
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Reply #129 on: July 17, 2020, 04:43:51 am
Governor?
A.
I was just referring to the tapered cam which lifts-closes the points.


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Reply #130 on: July 17, 2020, 04:46:12 am
It is probably off by a tooth or two on the idler gear.

Anyway, it is easy to change bt loosening the center bolt in the distributor shaft, and the giving the end of the shaft a good sharp crosswise whack with a plastic screwdriver handle. That breaks the hold of the taper, and you can move it around as you please.

It indeed was pretty simple, took a bit to get the right play on the plate in relation to the cam. Thank you!


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Reply #131 on: July 17, 2020, 04:47:25 am
Compensating for backlash in the cam and idler gears is a good idea on ANY older Bullet, I'm told it can affect the ignition timing by up to 10°. Crank-mounted electronic ignitions on more recent Royal Enfields don't have this issue.

By the way, I wouldn't bother with the adjustable cam spindles as fitted on the Electra-X and other AVL models, if you use these on an older Bullet you might succeed in quietening the cam gears a bit, but then it just moves the backlash further up the gear chain between the inlet cam and the first idler gear and will be no help for the ignition timing.

A.

Thank you, I was just curious as I had not seen that mechanism before.


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Reply #132 on: July 18, 2020, 06:43:12 pm
Update:
Last evening, I checked the oils, filled up the primary with ATF (maybe a little more than I needed to), kicked it over and it started and idled like a champ, but then after 10 mins or so, I started noticing smoke ( not the white kind we get when oil is burning) but more like misty heat thing, from right around the head area. Decided to take it to on a ride, put it in gear and upon acceleration, it completely died and there was more of this smoke coming out. Not sure what the problem is? I am thinking three scenarios:
  • too much oil in the primary case?
  • rockers are not getting oil somehow?
  • exhaust valve is not seating correctly resulting in some of the exhaust gases escaping?

How would I go about diagnosing this?


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Reply #133 on: July 18, 2020, 08:54:01 pm
Hard to say. Not enough info.

Maybe an exhaust leak?
Head gasket loose?
What does it smell like?

It is not anything related to primary fluid.
You can check for oil under the rocker covers, or by loosening a banjo fitting while it is idling, to see if some oil dribbles out.
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Reply #134 on: July 19, 2020, 01:53:18 am
Thank you Ace, it indeed was a loosely fitted head. I removed the rocker covers and started the bike ensuring oil flow. I think the smoke was probably just oil burning somewhere, my bike does drip oil. Today I took it for a ride and it ran really well, I can't express the joy it brought me.


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Reply #135 on: July 19, 2020, 02:34:51 am
Congratulations.
You will need to keep after it, with vibrations loosening bolts and re-adjustments needed. These are cranky old beasts, but they have a unique charm that really won't be found elsewhere.
Home of the Fireball 535 !


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Reply #136 on: July 21, 2020, 06:03:01 pm
Congratulations.
You will need to keep after it, with vibrations loosening bolts and re-adjustments needed. These are cranky old beasts, but they have a unique charm that really won't be found elsewhere.

Thank you, will do. They sure do, none of my other bikes brings out the grin as big as the Enfield. Thanks to so many of you on this thread who helped me through this issue. Would probably have given up without the help.


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Reply #137 on: July 21, 2020, 07:00:24 pm
How about a photo ? It was an epic thread. ;)
2005E Fixed and or Replaced: ignition, fenders,chainguard,wires,carb,headlight,seat,tailight,sprockets,chain,shock springs,fork springs, exhaust system, horn,shifter,clutch arm, trafficators,crankcase vent.


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Reply #138 on: July 23, 2020, 07:32:03 pm
How about a photo ? It was an epic thread. ;)

It was indeed, how about a video?

https://imgur.com/a/avxxrpM


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Reply #139 on: July 23, 2020, 07:51:47 pm
Very nice. Good luck with it.
2005E Fixed and or Replaced: ignition, fenders,chainguard,wires,carb,headlight,seat,tailight,sprockets,chain,shock springs,fork springs, exhaust system, horn,shifter,clutch arm, trafficators,crankcase vent.