[lowjoe]

Has anyone here converted a C5 front disk to drum for a more vintage look? If so can you provide some info on it please

[AzCal Retred]

The actual "vintage" bike here is the Pre-Unit Iron Barrel, still available for reasonable money. The UCE is the upgraded, modernized version of the Pre-Unit. RE added hydraulic lifters, 5-speed, Disc brake, EFI, all the nice bits riders were clamoring for. Unless you are thinking of adding a comparable performance drum front brake, like some 4 leading shoe racing Brembo, a front-drum equipped UCE will just evoke thoughts like "Wow, that guy trashed his front end and was only able to afford salvage bits from an old Pre-Unit".

Pre-Unit forks & sliders are smaller diameter items, so inherently more flexible and easier to bend. You lose the better braking ability of the disc. Overall length may come into play also. Bushings would need to be machined. If you just want to adapt the drum hub, there may needs be welding & machine work required of at least the left-hand slider, plus whatever you'd need to do to the hub to adapt a "spear thru" axle to the forks unless they were of the bolt-on axle variety already.

Basically you'll create an expensive "art project" that has reduced safety & functionality over the stock machine. For about the same money you'd end up spending on a drum conversion, it'd make a lot more sense to just acquire a Pre-Unit for $1500 - $3000 and polish that up. Then you'd have the real experience of genuine hardware from back in the day. Once you work out the kinks, the old Iron Bellies are reasonably reliable and eminently repairable. And you'd STILL have your nice C5 to toot around on whenever you wished, the one that starts with the push of a button, stops from 60 MPH in 150 feet with two fingers on the lever, and doesn't need any fooling around with the valves.

[axman88]

The actual "vintage" bike here is the Pre-Unit Iron Barrel, still available for reasonable money. The UCE is the upgraded, modernized version of the Pre-Unit. RE added hydraulic lifters, 5-speed, Disc brake, EFI, ...

I've been led to believe that some versions of the UCEs for domestic production continued to use front drums for quite some time, although perhaps all the exports had front discs.   Lots of domestics certainly did not have EFI.

Like this one:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Enfield_Bullet#/media/File:Bullet_350_Twinspark.jpg

I didn't realize the fork tube diameter changed between IB and UCE.  I have a small collection of fork assemblies at home, including from a 1999 IB, from ~ 2011, with a leading offset axle, and from a ~2016 with the inline axle, so I can slip a caliper on those and directly check.

Because the way the tubes mount into the casquette are different on all three of these, it seems to me that one might have to change the entire pivoting assembly to most easily accomplish a changeover: tubes, sliders, triple tree and casquette.   If the diameter and length of the head is the same, that might not be such a big deal.  If I lived in India, and had access to the piles of parts I envision exist there, I might go for something like this.  Discs are great for braking until they start dragging just a little bit, and then you need to push the bike a few miles.  Not very fond of brake fluid either.

I'm not so concerned about braking ability as some other folks.  People say that the rear 6" single leading shoe brake is underpowered, but I've managed to lock mine up several times, once for fun, once in an emergency stop, and one time that was a big surprise and did a fair amount of damage.

[GSS]

Has anyone here converted a C5 front disk to drum for a more vintage look? If so can you provide some info on it please

Probably not worth the aggravation as well as reduced functionality.

[axman88]

I didn't realize the fork tube diameter changed between IB and UCE.  I have a small collection of fork assemblies at home, including from a 1999 IB, from ~ 2011, with a leading offset axle, and from a ~2016 with the inline axle, so I can slip a caliper on those and directly check.

Because the way the tubes mount into the casquette are different on all three of these, it seems to me that one might have to change the entire pivoting assembly to most easily accomplish a changeover: tubes, sliders, triple tree and casquette.   If the diameter and length of the head is the same, that might not be such a big deal.

I looked at the fork tubes and I found that all three , the 1999 Bullet, the 2011 C5 ( actually Jan 2012, but built  like a 2011), and the 2017 Bullet ( I said 2016 earlier but they are marked 2017) all measured identically at 35 mm tube OD with my caliper.

It was interesting that the thread on the casquette end of the 1999 tubes seems to thread just fine into the socket on the 2011 casquette, although the machined detail on the ends of the tubes are different. 

The neck length and inside diameter of the bearing cups appears to be identical between the 1999 frame and the 2011 frame.  It does appear to me that it would be relatively straightforward to substitute an entire front end from the 1999 with the 2011 going either direction.  I can't speak for the later models, I don't have a later model frame to look at.  This would as I said, mean swapping wheel with hub, fork assemblies, fender stays, fender, triple tree and casquette.  I didn't look at potential issues this would create with speedo, headlamp or any other components.

The fork spindle rotation stop and the fork lock mechanism are different between the two bikes, so that might have to be modified.

It may be possible to assemble fork assemblies from the 1999 IB with the casquette from the 2011, perhaps with some machining required on the casquette.  I only looked at this very casually.  Because the fork tube machining on the later models, after 2012, with inline axle, and without externally threaded tubes is quite different, I'd expect that the 1999 (IB era ) tubes would not assemble to a later model C5 casquette.

I hope to be starting to reassemble my 2011 C5 in another month or so.  I could potentially try fitting the 1999 front end to it at that time if there was interest.  I doubt I would do this for myself, but it is interesting to know what's possible.  Although the individual parts are pretty readily available from India, it's unusual to find complete assemblies being sold off as a package, and it gets a bit expensive to buy all the parts individually.

[AzCal Retred]

The GT535 forks are 41mm - I assumed that the bigger, stiffer, better forks would be used across the line. Apparently not, lesser beings are relegated to the noodle forks!   Just another reason to get the GT535 besides that double loop cradle frame I suppose...

https://www.motorcyclespecs.co.za/model/Royal_Enfield/royal_enfield_Continental_GT.html

[Othen]

Has anyone here converted a C5 front disk to drum for a more vintage look? If so can you provide some info on it please

What a bizarre idea. Perhaps people will want to delete the electric starter and add a few oil leaks for authenticity!

[dickim]

My dealer added the oil leak at the 1st service and didn't even charge me for it and really didn't want to do much except give me an "O" ring to do it myself when I complained about the 120km round trip to fix THEIR SCREW UP! funnily I managed what a trained bike "technician" couldn't.
Anyone else noticed "Technicians" sound better & more professional, but are inversely proportional on skills 

[Othen]

My dealer added the oil leak at the 1st service and didn't even charge me for it

Wonderful, perhaps the OP would be keen on that modification to complete the drum brake look :-)

On a more serious note: my Pegasus is 3 years old (of course - they all are!) and so well out of the warranty period; it had just been serviced by the supplying dealer when I got it a few months ago, but I wasn't going to get it serviced by a dealer again. I've downloaded the manual (very good) and the bike is very simple, so there is nothing I don't think I could handle myself. I'll just sign off the service book with a list of all the jobs I've done each year (I've done the same with my Triumph and CCM - both owned from new and never had any problems). I'm not so fussed about saving a few hundred quid in dealer servicing costs every year, but like you I'm not convinced a dealer will do the work properly (whereas I know I will).

:-)

[Keef Sparrow]

What a bizarre idea. Perhaps people will want to delete the electric starter and add a few oil leaks for authenticity!

Some people actually do remove the electric starter and associated parts, fit a blanking plate etc.    I wonder if that still seems such a great idea when you stall it at the front of the traffic light queue when the lights go green? Some also do things like remove the fuel injection and convert back to carb, remove the auto de-compressor and other stuff that makes no sense to me. RE spent many years developing and improving the bike to make it more reliable, easier to use, and more efficient, and yet some people seem to go to great lengths to remove the upgrades and deliberately make the bike worse. If it ain't broke... Why not not buy on old one in the first place if that's what you want? Each to their own, but I'd rather spend my time riding instead of endlessly tinkering.

If I did want to remove the major safety improvement of modern disc brakes/ABS just for the sake of appearance I would think by far the easiest way would be change the entire front end - forks, yokes, mudguard and all and bolt the whole lot onto your existing frame. RE Bullet parts are cheap and plentiful new or used 

[axman88]

RE Bullet parts are cheap and plentiful new or used 

Not in the USA, not the IBs and the AVLs, these seem quite few and far between.  350s are the extremely uncommon.  The UCEs are and will continue to be more plentiful, but still rare in a spare parts sense, and since these spend most of their time in the garages of old men, the likelihood of them experiencing an event that will result in liberation of an entire front end is small.  I ride mine, forum members ride theirs, but judging by the mileage claimed on machines coming available on the 2nd hand market, the average C5 owner in the USA, rides his machine primarily in dreams.

I see UCE parts on Ebay from bike breakers, but they tend to tear things down to their smallest bits.  Buying the entire assembly as parts could end up costing $500 or more.

[lowjoe]

I am up in Canada and even a UCE is a rare site.  Pre UCE units are pretty much non exixtant here

[Othen]

Some people actually do remove the electric starter and associated parts, fit a blanking plate etc.    I wonder if that still seems such a great idea when you stall it at the front of the traffic light queue when the lights go green? Some also do things like remove the fuel injection and convert back to carb, remove the auto de-compressor and other stuff that makes no sense to me. RE spent many years developing and improving the bike to make it more reliable, easier to use, and more efficient, and yet some people seem to go to great lengths to remove the upgrades and deliberately make the bike worse. If it ain't broke... Why not not buy on old one in the first place if that's what you want?

None of the above makes any sense to me. Here in the UK it would be far easier and cheaper to buy an older bike (complete without electric boot but with authentic oil leaks).

Ho hum.

[AzCal Retred]

Othen - the dealer I got my IB Bullet from was staffed by young tigers that had absolutely zero frame of reference for archaic hardware. I just assumed everything was screwed up, and I wasn't disappointed. After a couple years of sorting and fussing my 1999 is finally where it needed to be all along. You are doing yourself a big favor by pulling your own maintenance. There is zero interest or enthusiasm at the dealership for other than mainstream hardware.

[Othen]

Othen - the dealer I got my IB Bullet from was staffed by young tigers that had absolutely zero frame of reference for archaic hardware. I just assumed everything was screwed up, and I wasn't disappointed. After a couple years of sorting and fussing my 1999 is finally where it needed to be all along. You are doing yourself a big favor by pulling your own maintenance. There is zero interest or enthusiasm at the dealership for other than mainstream hardware.

:-)

[dickim]

And surprisingly HAYNES do a manual! Less surprising is that they won't ship to Oz, but send you to the I'd site and the privilege of paying twice as much.....unless you get your brother to buy and then ship for less than internal shipping! Have to say paper / soft  cover, and paper quality used in 60's outside toilets leaves you questioning what happened to HAYNES
Another surprise was my mate sending me the Haynes Ant Antstead Alfa retro build, which is the start if the TIPO 184 I'm itching to get stuck into 

[Richard230]

Othen - the dealer I got my IB Bullet from was staffed by young tigers that had absolutely zero frame of reference for archaic hardware. I just assumed everything was screwed up, and I wasn't disappointed. After a couple years of sorting and fussing my 1999 is finally where it needed to be all along. You are doing yourself a big favor by pulling your own maintenance. There is zero interest or enthusiasm at the dealership for other than mainstream hardware.

I think it is even worse than that. From my observation, the new crop of "service technicians" are now trained to use a factory scanner to connect to the bike's computer system, which will (actually might, or might not) tell them what is wrong with the bike so that they know what repairs to make or what to service. After that, it is just a matter of bolting on parts until the bike is fixed - or not. And of course that assumes that the parts are available in the distributor's inventory - which they might not be, especially this year.

And if that doesn't work out, then they can always fall back on: "They all do that, sir".     And push you out the door. 

[Adrian II]

GETTING BACK to lowjoe's original question, until recently you could buy a 350 UCE Indian Home market Bullet with a drum brake up front. The forks for these use the older type drum brake fork slider as seen on countless iron barrel Bullets, but modified to fit the more recent 35mm fork legs with the upgraded internals. The fork stanchion tops on these are plain rather than threaded, so they can be fitted to any EFI/UCE Bullet from 2012 to 2020(?), though NOT the 535GT, as has been pointed out. (2009-2011 EFI models all had srew-in forks, so an iron barrel front end will retro-fit straight in on these, if that's what you really want.)

I just happen to have bought a set of these very late Indian drum brake forks for my 1961 Redditch Bullet, as they will fit the old Fury top yoke I'm planning to use, with a little work.

A.

[Boxerman]

And surprisingly HAYNES do a manual! Less surprising is that they won't ship to Oz, but send you to the I'd site and the privilege of paying twice as much.....unless you get your brother to buy and then ship for less than internal shipping! Have to say paper / soft  cover, and paper quality used in 60's outside toilets leaves you questioning what happened to HAYNES
Another surprise was my mate sending me the Haynes Ant Antstead Alfa retro build, which is the start if the TIPO 184 I'm itching to get stuck into 

Keep your money in your pocket. I bought the Haynes manual and was very disappointed with it.
It doesn't tell you anything you can't get for free from either forums like this one or the free manuals you can download from Hitchcock's website.

Frank

[dickim]

Agreed 

[Richard230]

That was interesting regarding the fork assemblies having a smooth end like most other forks except in 2009-2011. I wonder why RE went to a screw-in fork tube like on my 2011 Bullet and then went back to a smooth end. Another RE-single mystery that would be interesting to hear why the change. Perhaps the RE engineers thought the screw-in tops were more secure and then later decided that it wasn't worth the manufacturing cost or slight increase in assembly time. 

[axman88]

RE spent many years developing and improving the bike to make it more reliable, easier to use, and more efficient, and yet some people seem to go to great lengths to remove the upgrades and deliberately make the bike worse.

I think I can make a very strong argument that the EFI / ECU was ONLY adopted when forced by government mandated emissions requirements, and had very little to do with "better", "easier to use", or "more reliable", and certainly not with "more economical".  RE retained carbs in the vast majority of the bikes they built (350s) until just a few years ago.  There's nothing efficient about not being able to use the last liter of fuel in your tank because the fuel pump may overheat if you do.  There's no help with vehicle reliability, needing to leave fuel that will turn into goo in the gas tank during winter storage, because there's no way provided to purge it.

Failure analysis of any system will always take into account the number of components in a system, their interaction, likelihood of each component failing, and the effect of each failure mode on system integrity. 

Consider EFI.
In this corner:   Gravity and a carburetor,
In that corner,  fuel pump, fuel pressure regulator, fuel injector, ECU, manifold pressure sensor, throttle position sensor, Engine temperature sensor, O2 sensor, all the interconnecting wire and plumbing, safety systems like tip switches and fuel pump relays, and dependency on ample and well regulated clean power.

Components that aren't there, can't break.   The difference in initial cost is obvious, not even considering development and maintenance cost.

Drum brakes do have certain advantages.  https://haynes.com/en-gb/tips-tutorials/pros-and-cons-cars-drum-brakes   I like them because they are much less likely to drag, and shoes last longer, and can be relined in a home shop.

[axman88]

That was interesting regarding the fork assemblies having a smooth end like most other forks except in 2009-2011. I wonder why RE went to a screw-in fork tube like on my 2011 Bullet and then went back to a smooth end. Another RE-single mystery that would be interesting to hear why the change. Perhaps the RE engineers thought the screw-in tops were more secure and then later decided that it wasn't worth the manufacturing cost or slight increase in assembly time. 

I think the IBs from the late period, used a threaded top tube, with the same thread diameter and pitch as your 2011, but a tapered unthreaded section at the top end, the #144472:  https://accessories.hitchcocksmotorcycles.com/2268
This is what is on my 1999 IB Bullet.  These do thread into the casquette on my 2011, but they have different machining than the #591829  https://accessories.hitchcocksmotorcycles.com/22800 which is called for on the 2009-2011.

Then there is the #593990, which has no external thread but has milled flats.  https://accessories.hitchcocksmotorcycles.com/22800  I have a set of these from a 2017 UCE 500.  I think this is the style that Adrian is showing in his pictures.  There's probably other variants as well, these are the three that I happen to have in my possession.  It's best to do a lot of research and proceed with caution.

My bike is actually a Jan 2012, but has the offset front fork and 18" wheel consistent with the 2011.

I wonder if the sliders and downward might be assemble-able to tubes from other years, such that one could keep their existing casquette and triple tree and still make the swap?

[Othen]

Another surprise was my mate sending me the Haynes Ant Antstead Alfa retro build, which is the start if the TIPO 184 I'm itching to get stuck into 

I think I noticed a TV series featuring Ant Antstead and the TIPO 184 build coming up soon on one of the minor TV channels here in the UK (maybe DMAX - I'll check later). That looked really interesting.

Alan

PS. The programme I was talking about is called 'Ant Anstead Master Mechanic' - I'm streaming it (for free) as I type this on Amazon Prime - report to follow.

[dickim]

Hi Alan - Yes it's quite interesting, starts with an old MG TF Chassis as a base and builds from there as a ONE OFF . TIPO 184 (1.8Lt 4 cyl) is MX5 based and came from a mix of the show and a u.k charity build...... recognizing that lots if us whilst handy with a spanner  can't do much of the fabrication & welding, hence a complete kit, just like Colin Chapman did.... In Oz the show was streamed around 12mths ago and Tipo offered from Jan, with deliveries starting at the end of 2021....

[Othen]

Hi Alan - Yes it's quite interesting, starts with an old MG TF Chassis as a base and builds from there as a ONE OFF . TIPO 184 (1.8Lt 4 cyl) is MX5 based and came from a mix of the show and a u.k charity build...... recognizing that lots if us whilst handy with a spanner  can't do much of the fabrication & welding, hence a complete kit, just like Colin Chapman did.... In Oz the show was streamed around 12mths ago and Tipo offered from Jan, with deliveries starting at the end of 2021....

Fascinating. I had not heard of the TIPO until you mentioned it a few weeks ago. I'm just watching the Ant Anstead show now (the MG chassis bit).

I was going to look for a Volvo Amazon as my next project (I'm a bit of a Volvo bloke, I have a 41 year old 244 (the Royal Barge) and look after a friend's 1972 P1800ES (Delores)), but now I think I might consider the TIPO instead - it would be quite exciting to get it road legal here in the UK :-)

[dickim]

Hope you ENJOY and...Go for it  The P180 is one of my Fave cars along with Dino. I finally got an 88 Esprit Turbo in my early 50's but sciatica is a bitch! so then after 6ryrs another fave a 56 MGA (4th owner) and now restoring a BIG Healey which was VERY UNEXPECTED! bit if a money pit, but worst case should still be ahead.......and then I saw the TIPO and time for a "Sweetheart???" conversation 

[Othen]

Hope you ENJOY and...Go for it  The P180 is one of my Fave cars along with Dino. I finally got an 88 Esprit Turbo in my early 50's but sciatica is a bitch! so then after 6ryrs another fave a 56 MGA (4th owner) and now restoring a BIG Healey which was VERY UNEXPECTED! bit if a money pit, but worst case should still be ahead.......and then I saw the TIPO and time for a "Sweetheart???" conversation 

... Delores (the P1800ES) is lovely, but under the skin is a plain girl in a party frock:



It is all very simple engineering, but on an older car that is an advantage and not a demerit at all. The Royal Barge is more my kind of car - again, really simple underneath (no electronics except the quartz clock) but big and solid:



I had not considered a kit car previously - but for a number of reasons it might make sense now. The RB project is now in a use and maintenance phase, and my son and I have decided not to move house for two more years (until he completes his A levels), so I could do with a new project... :-)

Alan

[suitcasejefferson]

No Iron Barrels for sale anywhere near me. The UCE is a more reliable engine once you convert it to a carburetor. Many vintage British bikes used unit construction engines. I have already converted mine to a carb, and would love to replace the front disc with a drum as well. If it worked on the Iron Barrel bikes, it will work just as well on the UCE models. I'm sure it can be done, though it might mean building a wheel and replacing part of the forks. People don't buy Royal Enfield 500 singles for functionality. But I can say with absolute certainty, from 14K miles of experience, that replacing the EFI with an Amal carburetor will drastically increase the functionality, or at least the rideability, and reliability.

[Richard230]

Speaking of a "plain girl in a party frock", that described my 1973 VW Karman Gaia (please excuse the spelling). After placing my 2-year old daughter on its package shelf, I had a change of heart regarding the safety of that plan and bought one of those Volvo 144GT monsters, as shown in Alan's post, which had a bumper that would make an old Greek warship proud. Just dial it up to "ramming speed". 

As far as installing a disk on the front wheel of most any motorcycle weighing over 300 pounds, I would not agree with suitcase regarding the practical usefulness of replacing a disc brake with a drum version. The drum might look much nicer, but its stopping ability will not be all that great, compared with a disc brake system. So if braking quickly and safely is important to you, stick with a disc, but if looks pluck your heart strings, then a drum might be the way to go. Just allow a lot of room between you and the vehicle in front of you. Modern cars can sure stop a lot faster than a 1950's Buick. 

[Othen]

No Iron Barrels for sale anywhere near me. The UCE is a more reliable engine once you convert it to a carburetor. Many vintage British bikes used unit construction engines. I have already converted mine to a carb, and would love to replace the front disc with a drum as well. If it worked on the Iron Barrel bikes, it will work just as well on the UCE models. I'm sure it can be done, though it might mean building a wheel and replacing part of the forks. People don't buy Royal Enfield 500 singles for functionality. But I can say with absolute certainty, from 14K miles of experience, that replacing the EFI with an Amal carburetor will drastically increase the functionality, or at least the rideability, and reliability.

I’m not sure I agree with much of that. I like carburettors - they are used on 3 or my bikes (Triumph, CCM and Suzuki) and one of my cars (the Volvo 244) - but I certainly wouldn’t be converting my RE Pegasus to a carburettor in a hurry. It is best left the way Mr Enfield designed it.

When it comes to disc brakes I could not disagree more, converting a modern hydraulic disc with ABS to a cable operated drum would be barking mad.

Alan

[dickim]

Alan - I did my 1st kit as a 22yr old but then got promoted (Chief Commercial Photographer) and needed a more sensible car for clients...
Fast fwd to JZR as a transition to retirement project, NO instructions and one (or 2) word answers from the designer.....I loved the nature of solving and working through the build, hence doing it all over AGAIN 👍 and Suitcase it had 2 carbs 😀 and we know your thoughts......
Back in the 70's my uncle was lent a Volvo by a dealer in Bradford, and despite him heading to Scotland for a week they said "Take It" he's only bought Volvo's since....

[Othen]

Speaking of a "plain girl in a party frock", that described my 1973 VW Karman Gaia (please excuse the spelling). After placing my 2-year old daughter on its package shelf, I had a change of heart regarding the safety of that plan and bought one of those Volvo 144GT monsters, as shown in Alan's post, which had a bumper that would make an old Greek warship proud. Just dial it up to "ramming speed". 

As far as installing a disk on the front wheel of most any motorcycle weighing over 300 pounds, I would not agree with suitcase regarding the practical usefulness of replacing a disc brake with a drum version. The drum might look much nicer, but its stopping ability will not be all that great, compared with a disc brake system. So if braking quickly and safely is important to you, stick with a disc, but if looks pluck your heart strings, then a drum might be the way to go. Just allow a lot of room between you and the vehicle in front of you. Modern cars can sure stop a lot faster than a 1950's Buick. 

Wonderful, I agree with all of that. The 244 is a big, heavy brick, but that is what I like about it. Those big rubber bumpers are supported by a couple of railway carriage buffers underneath - how cool is that.

I couldn’t agree more and commented on the idea of swapping a disc brake back to a drum above - I’ve probably heard sillier ideas, but I can’t remember when.

:-)

Alan

[Othen]

Alan - I did my 1st kit as a 22yr old but then got promoted (Chief Commercial Photographer) and needed a more sensible car for clients...
Fast fwd to JZR as a transition to retirement project, NO instructions and one (or 2) word answers from the designer.....I loved the nature of solving and working through the build, hence doing it all over AGAIN 👍 and Suitcase it had 2 carbs 😀 and we know your thoughts......
Back in the 70's my uncle was lent a Volvo by a dealer in Bradford, and despite him heading to Scotland for a week they said "Take It" he's only bought Volvo's since....

I’ve been binge watching the Ant Anstead 158 programme all morn (between waking Bob, the dog) - Dan (my son, aged nearly 17) thinks I’m off my head!

I’d never considered a kit car previously (and I’m impressed by your background), it would never have been practical during my working career (I moved too frequently, often at short notice and all over the world), but all of a sudden I’m a retired chap and… I have the time and space now.

My first brand new car (in 1986 I think) was a Volvo 240; I liked the car and always meant to get another. I didn’t do that until last year when I bought the RB, but I’m really happy I renewed my association with Volvo, the driving experience is exactly as I remember it from 35 years ago. The 244 is perfect as an historic car: disc brakes all round (vital), servo assistance, PAS, proper lights and lots of metal - but no electronics (apart from the quartz clock) and a carburettor controlled by bits of wire rather than a computer. The RB needed a bit of work, but the project phase is pretty well over and it is now into a use and maintenance phase (although I do have a 4 speed AW71 gearbox I may swap in next year, we’ll see).

That was a long winded way of saying I’m on the lookout for a new project - and a kit car might well be the way to go.

:-) Alan

[suitcasejefferson]

I have owned 4 air cooled VW Bugs and loved them. But I'm in Phoenix AZ and it is too hot for them here in the summer. I now have a 1972 Ford Pinto woodgrain station wagon with a Weber 2 barrel carb and points ignition. I spent almost $2K putting aftermarket A/C in it. It has a 4 speed manual transmission. I rebuilt the engine back around 2005, shortly after buying it. It had sat so long the rings rusted in the bores.

My RE does not have ABS brakes, at least not the computerized kind. I will never own a bike with those. The disc is none too good as far as stopping in a hurry. I used to have a Honda Nighthawk 250 with a drum front brake and I could do stoppies on it. Not going to happen with the RE disc. You can't ride a vintage bike the same way you ride a "modern" bike. You just have to accept that and live with it. There are plenty of Japanese bikes from the '70s and '80s that you can ride anywhere. I don't mind a disc on those bikes. But it doesn't look right on the Enfield, and I don't expect modern performance out of that anyway. It is strictly ridden for fun where it is safe to ride such a bike.

[dickim]

Hi Alan- wouldn't you agree Retirement is UNDERRATED 
Whatever works for YOU is all that matters 👍 Personally seen too MANY guy's regret not retiring sooner even though they could......
I meet up weekly with a group called Chrome Bumpers for coffee and it's mature guy's talking shit! and health and politics and..... LOVE IT. Appreciate you have young kids, and LIVE it with them not for them, and great your sharing with your boy👍

[Othen]

I have owned 4 air cooled VW Bugs and loved them. But I'm in Phoenix AZ and it is too hot for them here in the summer. I now have a 1972 Ford Pinto woodgrain station wagon with a Weber 2 barrel carb and points ignition. I spent almost $2K putting aftermarket A/C in it. It has a 4 speed manual transmission. I rebuilt the engine back around 2005, shortly after buying it. It had sat so long the rings rusted in the bores.

My RE does not have ABS brakes, at least not the computerized kind. I will never own a bike with those. The disc is none too good as far as stopping in a hurry. I used to have a Honda Nighthawk 250 with a drum front brake and I could do stoppies on it. Not going to happen with the RE disc. You can't ride a vintage bike the same way you ride a "modern" bike. You just have to accept that and live with it. There are plenty of Japanese bikes from the '70s and '80s that you can ride anywhere. I don't mind a disc on those bikes. But it doesn't look right on the Enfield, and I don't expect modern performance out of that anyway. It is strictly ridden for fun where it is safe to ride such a bike.

I think we will just have to agree to disagree about discs vs drums - but I respect your views (although I certainly don’t agree).

Best wishes,

Alan

[AzCal Retred]

Suitcase Jefferson @ #34: ALL of my Iron Barrels have ABS, from the factory. The Hitchcocks "sticky compound" front shoes did help quite a bit though...

[Othen]

Hi Alan- wouldn't you agree Retirement is UNDERRATED 
Whatever works for YOU is all that matters 👍 Personally seen too MANY guy's regret not retiring sooner even though they could......
I meet up weekly with a group called Chrome Bumpers for coffee and it's mature guy's talking shit! and health and politics and..... LOVE IT. Appreciate you have young kids, and LIVE it with them not for them, and great your sharing with your boy👍

Retirement is marvellous as long as one has enough money - it would be miserable if not. I retired at 53, there has been the odd time I’ve missed the excitement and comraderie  of work, but on the whole I’ve had lots to do and have really enjoyed retirement. The best thing has been having the time, money and intent to see my son to (nearly) adulthood. He is a great guy - we enjoy loads of stuff together - it was all well worth it. As Dan gets closer to adulthood I may have to find a few more projects - what a pity :-)

Alan

[dickim]

Correctly put Alan, opinions and views are just that, opinions and not facts, In my opinion, use of IMO (in my opinion) is often missing in posts and threads to the point that you feel lectured to for NOT sharing an OPINION

[dickim]

Sadly retirement will always be about money 😣 here In Oz unless you've smoked, drunk or gambled it away, you've NO CHANCE of a government pensionpension all private. I waited till 60 and purely for taxation reasons.
Ironically after 1 days benefit as a 15yr old, and 45yrs paying tax I can't even get a train pass let alone anything else 🤔 ..... but kept my u.k "National Insurance Contributions" up to date...👍 Reckon you should go TIPO and we can start our own forum 🤣🤣🤣

[Othen]

Sadly retirement will always be about money 😣 here In Oz unless you've smoked, drunk or gambled it away, you've NO CHANCE of a government pensionpension all private. I waited till 60 and purely for taxation reasons.
Ironically after 1 days benefit as a 15yr old, and 45yrs paying tax I can't even get a train pass let alone anything else 🤔 ..... but kept my u.k "National Insurance Contributions" up to date...👍 Reckon you should go TIPO and we can start our own forum 🤣🤣🤣

I certainly would not rely on the state here in UK! When it does eventually arrive (I’ll be 66 - so 5 more years) I think I’ll use it to buy the most flashy and frivolous car I can :-) In the meantime my boy and I are pretty comfortably off because of decisions I made over the past 4 decades os work, saving and investing. I’m pleased that I will be able to give my son a good start in life - financially, intellectually and morally - so he will be like me, only better :-)

I like the idea of a TIPO forum!!!!!!!!

[Richard230]

Speaking of disc and drum brakes, I recall that Honda produced a V-twin 250 Interceptor during the mid-1980's that had a front disc brake stuck inside an enclosed housing that made it look like a drum. I guess it was one of those Honda things just to prove that it could be done, even though no one asked for it - except maybe in Japan. Unfortunately, there was this slight matter of needing to cool the disc and there apparently was a bit of fade inside that mostly sealed housing when used in a sporting manner. That was the end of that big idea, to my knowledge. I guess it looked nice to some people, but no doubt their product liability lawyers didn't appreciate the design. 

One of the other brake things that Honda tried out was using a cable-operated front disc brake on a 125cc sport bike. It operated the brake pad via a ramp in the caliper. Kind of interesting, but apparently it didn't work all that well either. So they went back to either drums or discs, depending upon the model.

[Nitrowing]

I'd only consider removing the disc and caliper for brakes from a GSXR 
Easy to get, reliable, simple to work on and superb feel.
In all my history of throwing bikes down the road, only once did I lose the front end under braking and I was on a diesel slick. I highly doubt ABS would have prevented that 
Drum? That's just such a retrograde step that my brain barely registers why.

[Adrian II]

One of the other brake things that Honda tried out was using a cable-operated front disc brake on a 125cc sport bike. It operated the brake pad via a ramp in the caliper. Kind of interesting, but apparently it didn't work all that well either. So they went back to either drums or discs, depending upon the model.

Yes, the CB125J, I had a 1976 model. A competent little bike, but that cable-operated disk was not its best feature...

A.

[dickim]

I certainly would not rely on the state here in UK! When it does eventually arrive (I’ll be 66 - so 5 more years) I think I’ll use it to buy the most flashy and frivolous car I can :-) In the meantime my boy and I are pretty comfortably off because of decisions I made over the past 4 decades os work, saving and investing. I’m pleased that I will be able to give my son a good start in life - financially, intellectually and morally - so he will be like me, only better :-)

I like the idea of a TIPO forum!!!!!!!!

JEEZ- apart from having NO kids it's like looking in the mirror 👍🤣🤣
We might even both get our u.k pension around the same time🤔
I spat the dummy last time I was over when an a past colleague who's been on benefits (drink related) for 20+ yrs was complaining about his mobility car being replaced and not having the choice of a Volvo 😡😡😡😡😡 I finally said my piece, funnily not spoken since....

[suitcasejefferson]

Suitcase Jefferson @ #34: ALL of my Iron Barrels have ABS, from the factory. The Hitchcocks "sticky compound" front shoes did help quite a bit though...

Yeah, back in the middle of the 20th century, brakes weren't very good, and everybody complained. Then brakes started getting better and better (or at least more and more powerful) till you could lock the front wheel with you little finger. Well, that wasn't good either, so they had to develop an elaborate and expensive computer controlled system to prevent that from happening. The problem is, that TOOK CONTROL OF THE BRAKES AWAY FROM THE RIDER, and gave it to a computer. Controlling a bike is a HUGE part of the enjoyment of riding one, and having the rider in full control does mean that the rider could make a mistake that could ruin their day. But that too is part of the enjoyment of riding. Why not go back to brakes that worked well, but did not lock with the slightest touch? Brakes that had some feel at the lever and the pedal to assist the rider in modulating them, instead of what is mostly an on/off switch?

[suitcasejefferson]

I think we will just have to agree to disagree about discs vs drums - but I respect your views (although I certainly don’t agree).

Best wishes,

Alan

You have to understand that vintage vehicles are not the same as new vehicles. They are not as functional in some ways, more functional in others. Vintage vehicles are a hobby unto themselves. And if you intend to ride, drive, and enjoy them, you have to understand how they work, their limitations, learn their limits and how to operate them within those limits, and not put yourself in a situation where you could be in an unacceptable amount of danger by operating them. If all you want is a transportation appliance, then by all means get something new. But if you actually WANT something old, you are going to have to learn to live with it. It's not for everybody. Motorcycles are not for everybody, even new ones. They are several times more dangerous than cars. And you don't need them. A car is more functional in every way. People who ride motorcycles do so because they want to, not because they have to. I live in AZ, and lots of people still ride horses here. Are they suitable as daily transportation like they were 150 years ago? Obviously not. They are ridden for recreation. Do you know what it takes to start a Model T? You don't just hop in and turn a key or push a button. It's a long drawn out procedure. Even driving one requires a LOT of interaction from the driver. But believe it or not, those are a big part of why enthusiasts love these old machines. I won't even try to explain it. You either get it or you don't. Surprisingly I'm finding a lot more young people showing interest in old vehicles. Maybe "technology" has reached a point where even they have had enough, and would like to do a few things for themselves.

[Othen]

JEEZ- apart from having NO kids it's like looking in the mirror 👍🤣🤣
We might even both get our u.k pension around the same time🤔
I spat the dummy last time I was over when an a past colleague who's been on benefits (drink related) for 20+ yrs was complaining about his mobility car being replaced and not having the choice of a Volvo 😡😡😡😡😡 I finally said my piece, funnily not spoken since....

:-)

[Othen]

You have to understand that vintage vehicles are not the same as new vehicles. They are not as functional in some ways, more functional in others. Vintage vehicles are a hobby unto themselves. And if you intend to ride, drive, and enjoy them, you have to understand how they work, their limitations, learn their limits and how to operate them within those limits, and not put yourself in a situation where you could be in an unacceptable amount of danger by operating them. If all you want is a transportation appliance, then by all means get something new. But if you actually WANT something old, you are going to have to learn to live with it. It's not for everybody. Motorcycles are not for everybody, even new ones. They are several times more dangerous than cars. And you don't need them. A car is more functional in every way. People who ride motorcycles do so because they want to, not because they have to. I live in AZ, and lots of people still ride horses here. Are they suitable as daily transportation like they were 150 years ago? Obviously not. They are ridden for recreation. Do you know what it takes to start a Model T? You don't just hop in and turn a key or push a button. It's a long drawn out procedure. Even driving one requires a LOT of interaction from the driver. But believe it or not, those are a big part of why enthusiasts love these old machines. I won't even try to explain it. You either get it or you don't. Surprisingly I'm finding a lot more young people showing interest in old vehicles. Maybe "technology" has reached a point where even they have had enough, and would like to do a few things for themselves.

Good morn,

As I said above, I respect your views on this matter, but we just disagree: you will never convince me that a cable operated drum brake is better than a hydraulic disc brake, the reason is that the drum will overheat quickly in use and so become very inefficient (full stop - that means the same as period in US English).

I have two historic vehicles: a 1976 Suzuki 2 stroke and a 1980 Volvo 244. The Suzuki has cable and rod operated drum brakes, they both work just as Mr Suzuki meant them to 45 years ago, I still don't think the bike is safe on the highway so I use it very sparingly. The Volvo is just young enough to have discs all round (no ABS, that is an advantage on an older car) - it is perfectly safe for modern roads and so I use it most days.

Let's just agree to disagree about discs vs drums and leave the issue aside as friends.

Alan

[dickim]

Suitcase- without wishing to offend, IMO a little less pontificating, lecturing and basically "teaching your mother how to suck eggs" would not go amiss. As a R.E forum, especially U.C.E, it's likely that most if us have ones with efi and discs, and we bought with FULL knowledge for our uses. My knees are knackered from Rugby, hence electric start, and I PREFER disc to drum, my choice and I  think reasonable to expect and give mutual respect for each other's choices. I drive an MGA without seatbelts, drum brakes, and a non collapsible column - I know how to drive it differently to other vehicles and I  do find it insulting to be advised as such on bikes, cars, trucks etc...inc Personally I am happy to hear of your opinions on Carbs, but NOT to the point of being told that least we SHOULD change, at at worst implied that were dumb not to!
Time for mutual respect and that each other's views and opinions ARE EQUAL

[dickim]

Good morn,

As I said above, I respect your views on this matter, but we just disagree: you will never convince me that a cable operated drum brake is better than a hydraulic disc brake, the reason is that the drum will overheat quickly in use and so become very inefficient (full stop - that means the same as period in US English).

I have two historic vehicles: a 1976 Suzuki 2 stroke and a 1980 Volvo 244. The Suzuki has cable and rod operated drum brakes, they both work just as Mr Suzuki meant them to 45 years ago, I still don't think the bike is safe on the highway so I use it very sparingly. The Volvo is just young enough to have discs all round (no ABS, that is an advantage on an older car) - it is perfectly safe for modern roads and so I use it most days.

Let's just agree to disagree about discs vs drums and leave the issue aside as friends.

Alan

Seems like we were both responding at the same time! As a Yorkshireman sometimes subtlety is not my strongest.....

[Othen]

Speaking of disc and drum brakes, I recall that Honda produced a V-twin 250 Interceptor during the mid-1980's that had a front disc brake stuck inside an enclosed housing that made it look like a drum. I guess it was one of those Honda things just to prove that it could be done, even though no one asked for it - except maybe in Japan. Unfortunately, there was this slight matter of needing to cool the disc and there apparently was a bit of fade inside that mostly sealed housing when used in a sporting manner. That was the end of that big idea, to my knowledge. I guess it looked nice to some people, but no doubt their product liability lawyers didn't appreciate the design. 

One of the other brake things that Honda tried out was using a cable-operated front disc brake on a 125cc sport bike. It operated the brake pad via a ramp in the caliper. Kind of interesting, but apparently it didn't work all that well either. So they went back to either drums or discs, depending upon the model.

I recall that Honda with the enclosed discs - and remember it seemed pointless at the time (in that it lost the main benefit of disc brakes over drums). I think you are right, it was just Honda proving it could be done (like oval pistons... and lots lots of other things).

I have cable operated discs on my mountain bike - they work okay but are a little bit pointless and have been overtaken by events in that all modern MTB use hydraulic actuation.

Alan

[Othen]

Seems like we were both responding at the same time! As a Yorkshireman sometimes subtlety is not my strongest.....

Bobwalkin' time :-)

[Keef Sparrow]

There's nothing efficient about not being able to use the last liter of fuel in your tank because the fuel pump may overheat if you do.

How many people has this actually happened to? I ran my fuel injected Triumph dry - and it ran perfectly when I put fuel in and for several years after. I have done the same with a fuel injected Hyundai car (which must use cheap components like RE) and again there was no problem. Most people will guess what 's happened and turn the bike off and look to see if there is fuel in the tank - you can hear the fuel pump trying to prime and I think most people would have the sense to turn the ignition off at that point.

There's no help with vehicle reliability, needing to leave fuel that will turn into goo in the gas tank during winter storage, because there's no way provided to purge it.

I regularly leave fuel in the tank for at least three months over winter while my bike isn't being used and it doesn't turn into goo - the bikes have always started straight away with no problem. I have been using fuel injected cars and motorcycles almost exclusively since the 1990's and have had 100% reliability from all of them.

Drum brakes do have certain advantages... I like them because they are much less likely to drag, and shoes last longer, and can be relined in a home shop.

I have never found drag to be a problem with discs. Discs and brake pads are easy to change at home

[Keef Sparrow]

One of the other brake things that Honda tried out was using a cable-operated front disc brake on a 125cc sport bike. It operated the brake pad via a ramp in the caliper. Kind of interesting, but apparently it didn't work all that well either. So they went back to either drums or discs, depending upon the model.

I had that. My first bike was a CB125T-2 with a cable operated disc. It didn't have much 'feel' but it was very effective and I could make the front tyre howl in protest at 60 MPH! It did need a certain amount of care regarding maintenance - keeping the cable lubed, and also the pivot where the caliper was attached to the fork slider. I found it worked pretty well for the many years I had the bike - I did over 20,000 miles on it.

[Richard230]

Regarding brake pad drag: I must admit that I am happily impressed with the way my drum-slowed rear wheel spins so easily compared with the disc-braked front wheel on my bike - or any other disc brake system on any other motorcycle. That is the best part of a drum brake. Very low or no drag. So there is that. An efficient brake system, as long as you are not trying to stop really quickly.

[dickim]

Agreed -- pads are SO easy to change.
My C5 only has a front disc but I doubt very much that it's as easy to change the rear shoes as it would be pads, but open to correction?.
I know it's cars, but on my Healey I can change the front pads in about 1/4 of the time it takes to change the front shoes on my MGA, add in that Pads are around 40% of the cost and never need adjusting unlike the MGA. Add in that a new disc is around $60 whilst a used drum is around $300 (rare to find in Oz) before any possible machining.
Whilst some guys in both the Healey and MG Owners clubs upgrade from drums to discs, I personally want my classics as orig as possible, (yes they both have dynamo's, regulators, points etc....) so I maintain and drive accordingly - as I said elsewhere, NO Right or Wrong, choice balanced with facts

[Richard230]

Also, changing pads is a lot cleaner operation than changing brake shoes. Especially when you use an air nozzle to blow the brake dust out of the drum. 

[Keef Sparrow]

I recall that Honda with the enclosed discs - and remember it seemed pointless at the time (in that it lost the main benefit of disc brakes over drums).

I remember that bike too. Around that time motorcycle disc brakes still had a reputation for not working well in the rain - at least on initial application. I think Honda's enclosed discs may have been an attempt to solve this problem, but in doing do as you have observed they brought back one of the disadvantages of drum brakes - fading when they get hot. The later introduction of sintered pads solved the wet weather braking problems.

[Guaire]

"I recall that Honda with the enclosed discs - and remember it seemed pointless at the time (in that it lost the main benefit of disc brakes over drums). I think you are right, it was just Honda proving it could be done (like oval pistons... and lots lots of other things)."

Honda VTR250. The brakes were fine. I sold it because the foot rests were so high.

[suitcasejefferson]

Suitcase- without wishing to offend, IMO a little less pontificating, lecturing and basically "teaching your mother how to suck eggs" would not go amiss. As a R.E forum, especially U.C.E, it's likely that most if us have ones with efi and discs, and we bought with FULL knowledge for our uses. My knees are knackered from Rugby, hence electric start, and I PREFER disc to drum, my choice and I  think reasonable to expect and give mutual respect for each other's choices. I drive an MGA without seatbelts, drum brakes, and a non collapsible column - I know how to drive it differently to other vehicles and I  do find it insulting to be advised as such on bikes, cars, trucks etc...inc Personally I am happy to hear of your opinions on Carbs, but NOT to the point of being told that least we SHOULD change, at at worst implied that were dumb not to!
Time for mutual respect and that each other's views and opinions ARE EQUAL

No reason to fight over it, but understanding, from both perspectives would be good. I actually didn't want a UCE. I wanted an Iron Barrel. That's what they were making when I discovered Royal Enfield. I was overjoyed that I could still buy a real vintage bike brand new. But things kept preventing me from buying one, and when I was finally able to, the Iron Barrel had been replaced by the UCE. For the most part it was still vintage, most of the modern stuff was added on, like the EFI, that horrible exhaust, and the disc brake. The UCE engine was still a very primitive long stroke air cooled single that looked the part. I already knew when I bought it that it would be converted to a carburetor and that the exhaust would be replaced. Doing those things pretty much brought back the sound and feel of the Iron Barrel. But that disc brake stood out like a sore thumb. And it's braking ability was still nowhere near as good as the discs on 40 year old Japanese bikes, and not even as good as the last of Honda's front drum brakes. So I know it is possible to make a drum brake that will out perform it. But performance is not my main concern, as long as it stops the bike adequately. I don't do any spirited riding on the Enfield. It's all slow and easy, 55 mph max, enjoying the sound and feel of that engine, and what basically amounts to the experience of riding a vintage bike. Yes I would also prefer points ignition and mechanical valves, but they would not change the character or appearance of the bike. Though high quality ones would likely be more reliable than what is on it. You can often troubleshoot and repair points ignition beside the road, not the case with electronic ignition. I'm just trying to get as close to what I originally wanted as possible.

[axman88]

With all this helpful input, the OP should be well on his way to making the modification he asked for information about.

[dickim]

👍Suitcase- Horses for Courses, and as long as we all get what we're chasing / looking for, all GOOD. I'm coping some shit for breaking a perfectly good MX5/ Miatta to build what I want - Ce La Vie (probably spelt wrong as I failed French🤣🤣)

[Othen]

With all this helpful input, the OP should be well on his way to making the modification he asked for information about.

... I wonder whether our Canadian friend was serious about the modification. We have enjoyed a number of interesting tangents on the way :-)

[gizzo]

But I can say with absolute certainty, from 14K miles of experience, that replacing the EFI with an Amal carburetor will drastically increase the functionality, or at least the rideability, and reliability.

Is that 14k miles since the conversion, or all up? 'cause I'm at 50,000km on the efi with a very pleasant absence of failures and enjoy excellent functionality and performance (yes it has a powercommander and auto tune but mines a bit modded).

[dickim]

Went same way Gizzo  - Pwr Cmdr, K&N, and free flow exhaust from our Orig hosts- Black Friday Special 6yrs ago and faultless , 👍😀

[gizzo]

"I recall that Honda with the enclosed discs - and remember it seemed pointless at the time (in that it lost the main benefit of disc brakes over drums). I think you are right, it was just Honda proving it could be done (like oval pistons... and lots lots of other things)."

Honda VTR250. The brakes were fine. I sold it because the foot rests were so high.

I had one years ago. Put a XL500 motor in it. It went better than it stopped.

[axman88]

Quote from: suitcasejefferson on July 31, 2021, 01:56:28 pm
But I can say with absolute certainty, from 14K miles of experience, that replacing the EFI with an Amal carburetor will drastically increase the functionality, or at least the rideability, and reliability.

Is that 14k miles since the conversion, or all up? 'cause I'm at 50,000km on the efi with a very pleasant absence of failures and enjoy excellent functionality and performance (yes it has a powercommander and auto tune but mines a bit modded).

I was wondering about our friends experimental control group too.  He says that " The RE was the first bike I ever bought with EFI, and I wasted no time in ditching that for an Amal carburetor setup with a conversion kit from Hitchcock's."

https://forum.classicmotorworks.com/index.php?topic=27422.msg315202#msg315202

If a person has never ridden any other EFI bike and wastes no time chucking their EFI in the trash bin, one has to wonder about their qualifications to comment on the rideability and reliability of a bike WITH EFI.   How many miles were ridden with the (relatively early version) EFI before dumping it, what modifications had been made to the 2013 B5 Bullet that might have affected the EFI's functioning, and what, if any attempt was made to diagnose and correct any issues?

I've put 6300 miles on my first EFI motorcycle, ( 2012 C5), and there's things I like about it, like quick cold starting and ability to ride relatively smoothly when cold.  ( I ride down to about 28 degrees F)  and there's things I don't like about it, like cost of spares and the fact that I can't run the tank dry even for long term storage.  I'm considering going to carburetor.  If I do, I'd go whole hog, purge the ECU and sensors, convert to TCI, and an older, gravity feed tank, sell the original parts as spares, and end up with a profit in my pocket, not buy a pricey kit that leaves the ECU running in an endless error mode.  If I did make the conversion, I'd put a years riding into the conversion, including riding at the same cold temps I can ride at now, before I made my conclusions and sold off the EFI parts.

[Guaire]

"...one has to wonder about their qualifications to comment on the rideability and reliability of a bike WITH EFI."

One is wondering when Hitchcock's will require masks and a qualification tests to make a comment.

[Narada]

Almost  10,000 miles with PC-V, and maybe the last 2,000 of that with the Auto Tune. That should qualify me to say...No complaints here!!! 

Btw, just blew my throttle body completely off of the intake boot from a cold start, low rpm take off, with high rpm cams, backfire. 

Wasn't sure what had happened for sure until I got home. My efi ran pretty darn good with nothing but vacuum holding the throttle body on, lol! 

[suitcasejefferson]

Is that 14k miles since the conversion, or all up? 'cause I'm at 50,000km on the efi with a very pleasant absence of failures and enjoy excellent functionality and performance (yes it has a powercommander and auto tune but mines a bit modded).

Yes that would be 14K+ miles after doing the carb conversion and exhaust, which I did with less than 1K miles on the bike. The improvement was immediate and very noticeable. It was almost like a different bike. Major improvement. And no, I can't say that improvement couldn't have been made with an electronic tuner. But that would have been more expensive, and would have added even more electronics to the bike, the last thing I wanted to do. Motorcycles and other mechanical things are my main hobby, electronics are not. And while I may not have had much experience with EFI on motorcycles, I have a boatload of it with EFI and electronics on other vehicles. For 38 years I was a mechanic for a large city fleet services department. I started that job in 1977, when most vehicles were carbureted. And I noticed the reliability of vehicles go downhill as they added more and more electronics over the decades since. Not only were they less reliable, but also far more difficult and expensive to repair. Of course we did not try to "tune" these vehicles, they were left completely stock. 

[Othen]

Quote from: suitcasejefferson on July 31, 2021, 01:56:28 pm
But I can say with absolute certainty, from 14K miles of experience, that replacing the EFI with an Amal carburetor will drastically increase the functionality, or at least the rideability, and reliability.

I was wondering about our friends experimental control group too.  He says that " The RE was the first bike I ever bought with EFI, and I wasted no time in ditching that for an Amal carburetor setup with a conversion kit from Hitchcock's."

https://forum.classicmotorworks.com/index.php?topic=27422.msg315202#msg315202

If a person has never ridden any other EFI bike and wastes no time chucking their EFI in the trash bin, one has to wonder about their qualifications to comment on the rideability and reliability of a bike WITH EFI.   How many miles were ridden with the (relatively early version) EFI before dumping it, what modifications had been made to the 2013 B5 Bullet that might have affected the EFI's functioning, and what, if any attempt was made to diagnose and correct any issues?

I've put 6300 miles on my first EFI motorcycle, ( 2012 C5), and there's things I like about it, like quick cold starting and ability to ride relatively smoothly when cold.  ( I ride down to about 28 degrees F)  and there's things I don't like about it, like cost of spares and the fact that I can't run the tank dry even for long term storage.  I'm considering going to carburetor.  If I do, I'd go whole hog, purge the ECU and sensors, convert to TCI, and an older, gravity feed tank, sell the original parts as spares, and end up with a profit in my pocket, not buy a pricey kit that leaves the ECU running in an endless error mode.  If I did make the conversion, I'd put a years riding into the conversion, including riding at the same cold temps I can ride at now, before I made my conclusions and sold off the EFI parts.

I've been following this particular tangent from a distance. I still cannot imagine why anyone would remove a working EFI system and replace it with a carburettor, but at least Axeman's approach is logical rather than emotional (and that I applaud).

The EFI system is there for environmental reasons, rather than performance; that in itself is a good reason for keeping it as we all take more responsibility for the planet, but as Axeman points out there are other benefits as well (cold starting and running).

The only reasonable scenario for swapping the EFI system for a carburettor I can think of will be when the motorcycle is 30 years old, something electronic fails and cannot be replaced (that will happen with lots of cars and more complex bikes, but may not be so likely with a simple Royal Enfield). In that case it might make sense to follow Axeman's route and remove every trace of the EFI system.

I have no dog in this fight (I'll be keeping my Pegasus edition standard whatever happens), but I can't help thinking the arguments for carburettors are based more or emotion than logic.

Ho hum :-).

Alan

[Richard230]

Having owned about 35 motorcycles with carburetors I can see both sides of the technology.  I like carburetors because they are something that I can repair, replace and adjust myself. I also like them because (properly adjusted and setup) they provide a smooth throttle input when accelerating and during steady running.

But I also like fuel injection systems for their ability to usually get better gas mileage, easy startup and resistance to stalling, ability to adjust to both changes in elevation and temperature and they are more compact and don't dribble gas on the bike at times like most carburetors. What I really don't like about many FI systems, especially the ones from Yamaha, are their abrupt throttle response off of idle and the fact that you can't mess with them and now most dealers can't either as emission regulations tighten. As an example, in California, it is illegal to sell or install aftermarket mufflers, electronic devices that alter the FI programming, or any other device or adjustment that alters the factory's settings. Doing so can get you a $10,000 (or more) fine for each offense - although I will admit that plenty of vehicle owners (but not businesses) seem to find a way around all of the regulations, with limited results which are most obvious in the amount of noise that the vehicles make - based upon the amount of racket that "tuner" cars make as they pass by Alice's Restaurant during an early Sunday morning.   

[Adrian II]

I notice there's only been one further comment from lowjoe himself so far. To be fair, I don't think he was asking about retro-fitting carburettors.

The flip side to all this drum brake stuff is fitting disk brake conversions to iron barrel REs. lowjoe might want to consider why people do this modification. Chennai were onto it nearly thirty years ago offering a set of knock-through spindle forks and disk brake front wheel as ACCESSORY items.

Some of us have been known to fit disk brake Indian RE front ends to our old Redditch models, a set of pre-2012 C5 or Electra-X forks will do it, depending on your choice of front fender mount. B5 for Fury owners... I love the look of the drum brakes but went to disk for my Fury replica (sort of) because the drum brake I had fitted simply wasn't as good, despite my attempts to set it up correctly. Another identical drum brake on my other RE works fine.

A.

[Nitrowing]

It's really quite simple: race bike.
Do they use drums?
If drums were any good, GSXR and R1 would have them. They don't.
Why anyone would want to install inferior equipment is completely beyond me.
If I could fit twin wavy 320mm discs, I'd have them.

[axman88]

It's really quite simple: race bike.
Do they use drums?
If drums were any good, GSXR and R1 would have them. They don't.
Why anyone would want to install inferior equipment is completely beyond me.
If I could fit twin wavy 320mm discs, I'd have them.

Race bikes?   Those are the ones that go around in circles all day and end up where they started, ... being carted home on a trailer?

Not everybody wants that.

Drum brakes do have advantages:
      https://www.venturetrailers.com/resource/what-are-the-advantages-of-disc-brakes-over-drum-brakes/
      https://haynes.com/en-us/tips-tutorials/pros-and-cons-cars-drum-brakes

For those who like simplicity, the lower activating force required by the SELF activating geometry of drums means cable or rod activation is sufficient, one doesn't need the added complexity or cost of hydraulics.   I've never had problems delivering enough force to any drum brake that I've ever owned, sufficient to lock up that wheel, including the modest, single leading 6" drum on my RE.  Any more braking force than that, is not usable.

I, personally, like the fact that drums internal springs encourage them to release completely, while discs always seem to drag to some extent, and sometimes a considerable amount, enough to cause overheating damage to brakes and bearings.

And consider that, for example, a set of drum brake shoes for this 2016 RE UCE https://accessories.hitchcocksmotorcycles.com/2183 , costs 20% LESS than the set of disk brake shoes for the same machine.  https://accessories.hitchcocksmotorcycles.com/21891 , while containing 7 or 8 times MORE friction material.   We could expect the drum shoe to last proportionately longer, require less service, and be stressed at a much lower level.  For those folks who aren't racing around in circles, drums might make some sense.

[Richard230]

My two Honda 305 Super Hawks had a double-leading shoe front brake, which is apparently a "self-energizing" design. What I recall about those brakes was that they didn't help much from rolling backwards when stopped on a steep hill. 

[axman88]

My two Honda 305 Super Hawks had a double-leading shoe front brake, which is apparently a "self-energizing" design. What I recall about those brakes was that they didn't help much from rolling backwards when stopped on a steep hill. 

This reminds me of a story that a guy related in another forum, about a bike he had bought because the price was right.  The seller had told him the story about how the "probably easily fixable but I don't have time for it, issue" which warranted the cheap price, had started, which sounded a lot like primary drive or transmission damage to me.  Supposedly the seller was sitting on the unpowered motorcycle and it started rolling backwards.  To stop his backwards progress, the seller said he first dropped the bike in gear, but that wasn't sufficient, so he started the engine and dropped the clutch, and that this was "how whatever is broken got broke".

I've never rolled backwards on a motorcycle any great distance, we don't really have hills to speak of around here and those we do have, I've always negotiated going forwards.  When I have needed to arrest backwards motion, I grabbed a right hand full of brake, ... it just seemed expedient and my feet were already doing Fred Flintstone duty.  It would have never occurred to me to start the engine and try to use its torque to stop backwards progress.

But I'm also not trying to sell a bike with a busted drive train.

I recall riding a drum brake only Honda CB450 around San Francisco back in the day, and being impressed with the hills, especially because I had switched to a larger, Nebraska friendly, front sprocket before I set off.  There was some considerable clutch slipping going on.

[Richard230]

One of the limitations of my Zero electric motorcycle is that they didn't equip it with a parking brake. If you park it on much of a slope it will roll away as it slides along on its side stand (no center stand is provided, either). So what I do when I need to park on a slope of more than about 10% is to use a piece of Velcro strap and wrap that tightly around the front brake lever and the handlebar grip. A light and cheap solution. 

[AzCal Retred]

In olden tymes when dirt bikes ran drum front brakes they used a single leading shoe design. One shoe, the "leading" shoe, would self energize in normal forward rotation. The trailing shoe added a bit in retarding forward motion, but was mostly for when you were rolling backwards off of a hill/boulder/etc. and really needed to stop. I can testify that it was a useful feature. When disc brakes came along, it was a big improvement all around.

Loading up a heavy dual leading shoe machine into a pickup with a ramp makes you realize how little braking effect is available in the trailing direction. Don't let it lose forward momentum...

I really like disc brakes. In early days the compounds & rotors didn't like water much, but that seemed to be all sorted by the 1980's. Brakes are such an important part of the bike, if you had a disc brake to start with, I can't imagine replacing it with a drum if you intend to ride on the street. My IB drum is "adequate" for my needs, but I'm on empty backroads chuffing along at 20 - 45, not in city traffic or running 65 on a highway. A disc brake tilts the odds in your favor too much to toss out. Maybe DOT-4, EBC pads & cast iron rotors, if you were going to change anything.

[Richard230]

I do recall my 1973 Yamaha RD350's brakes. It had the first disc brake that I had used on a motorcycle. Unfortunately, it was a solid disc and when it got wet there was no friction on the disc. Just about any drum brake would have stopped faster. The pads must have been really hard, too. When I traded the Yamaha in on a 1974 Honda CB400 I measured the thickness of the brake pads and I calculated that the pads would have lasted about 150K miles. 

I agree that by 1980 motorcycle manufacturers had figured out disc brakes. Putting holes in the discs really helped when stopping in the rain and I assume that pad materials had improved, too.

[axman88]

I agree that by 1980 motorcycle manufacturers had figured out disc brakes.

And I wonder if it's fair to say that development and improvement of drum brakes hadn't stopped about 25 years before that?  It seems pretty obvious, when one looks at the the drum vs. disc assembly, and counts the components, one seems clearly cheaper to manufacture than the other.

I think one truth is emerging from all this, that the Axeman ends up pushing his machines more than most of his friends.  He's been in situations where he weighed the time it would take to dismount his front caliber to eliminate its drag, vs. the miles of remaining distance to push, and factored in the ambient temperature, while mentally kicking himself for not ordering replacement pads from India three weeks earlier instead of just last week.

When I'm pushing bikes onto a pickup truck, which happens a few times a year, I prefer to put the machine in gear and use the clutch as a "reverse brake".  This acts as a dead man brake, so if things go south, engine braking is ON while hands attend to more important matters.  My buddies and I don't seem to have much interest in short stroke, multi-cylinder bikes, so engine braking has always been adequate for control so far.
The rear brake pedal is available to the man on the right, so each guy gets the means to arrest motion.  There's always that moment in the process, where the front wheel is on the bed, the rear wheel on the ramp, and the bottom of the engine is hitting the end of the ramp when things get uncomfortable.  The front wheel is unweighted, because the engine is scraping, and the bars are pretty much out of reach of both men, until somebody climbs aboard.  This may be why pros use tilting trailers, lift gates and other, expensive stuff.

It's interesting to see what has happened with pedal mountain bikes.  Although the various forms of rim brake, win the "torque per pound of components" fight hands down, because they are act directly on the rim, discs were developed and were favored for a time, but the most recent developments are forms of drum brake including something called a "roller brake".  Shimano has provided easy integration of their roller brake into many of their hub designs. 

[Othen]

It's interesting to see what has happened with pedal mountain bikes.  Although the various forms of rim brake, win the "torque per pound of components" fight hands down, because they are act directly on the rim, discs were developed and were favored for a time, but the most recent developments are forms of drum brake including something called a "roller brake".  Shimano has provided easy integration of their roller brake into many of their hub designs.

I'll have to look into that, I do quite a lot of cycling and in my experience I see hydraulic disc brakes having completely taken over in all but the very cheapest mountain bikes. Even serious road bikes, where light weight and low rolling resistance are vital, seem to be moving towards discs (sometimes battery powered).

PS. I still have cable operated discs on my MTB, which are considered quaint by the younger guys :-)

[Othen]

I really like disc brakes. In early days the compounds & rotors didn't like water much, but that seemed to be all sorted by the 1980's. Brakes are such an important part of the bike, if you had a disc brake to start with, I can't imagine replacing it with a drum if you intend to ride on the street. My IB drum is "adequate" for my needs, but I'm on empty backroads chuffing along at 20 - 45, not in city traffic or running 65 on a highway. A disc brake tilts the odds in your favor too much to toss out. Maybe DOT-4, EBC pads & cast iron rotors, if you were going to change anything.

I've dropped in on this thread again and am pleased to see it has gained some momentum of its own... and will most likely continue for some time yet.

Consider this: if things had been different in the early days of motoring and disc brakes had been prevalent, and if my company had been manufacturing disc brakes for vehicles for the past 100 years... then someone invented the drum brake what would I do? This new invention would overheat and lose its efficiency very quickly in use, it would require some manual adjustment, or a complex self-adjusting mechanism, to keep it running in tolerance and it would have far more moving parts than my hydraulic disc brakes. Would I close down my disc brake production line and convert it to making drums - and run an expensive advertising campaign to convince Joe Public of this new invention... ich glaube nicht!

[dickim]

🤣🤣🤣

[Keef Sparrow]

My two Honda 305 Super Hawks had a double-leading shoe front brake, which is apparently a "self-energizing" design. What I recall about those brakes was that they didn't help much from rolling backwards when stopped on a steep hill. 

That is one of the known disadvantages of drum brakes - because of the design the 'self-servo' effect only works when travelling forwards. There is only minimal braking effect if you are moving backwards. Disc brakes will still work fine if you are rolling down a hill backwards.

[Keef Sparrow]

I agree that by 1980 motorcycle manufacturers had figured out disc brakes. Putting holes in the discs really helped when stopping in the rain and I assume that pad materials had improved, too.

The Italian motorcycle brands used cast iron discs in the early days instead of the stainless steel used by Japanese firms as cast iron seemed to work better in the rain. Trouble was, it didn't look nice when it went rusty - which didn't matter to 4 wheel users. Pad compounds have changed a lot since the early days of disc brakes. Asbestos used to be the main materiel but is now outlawed. On one of my Triumphs I upgraded from the newer post asbestos 'organic' brake pads to to 'sintered' pads and there was a major improvement in braking performance.

[Adrian II]

That is one of the known disadvantages of drum brakes - because of the design the 'self-servo' effect only works when travelling forwards. There is only minimal braking effect if you are moving backwards. Disc brakes will still work fine if you are rolling down a hill backwards.

Directionally agnostic? 

A.

[axman88]

I'll have to look into that, I do quite a lot of cycling and in my experience I see hydraulic disc brakes having completely taken over in all but the very cheapest mountain bikes. Even serious road bikes, where light weight and low rolling resistance are vital, seem to be moving towards discs (sometimes battery powered).

PS. I still have cable operated discs on my MTB, which are considered quaint by the younger guys :-)

I think you are right, and I should have said "bikes" not mountain bikes.  In retrospect, the internal geared hubs and drum brake variations that I have been looking at are probably aimed at "city" bikes, and not at mountain bikes.  The extended heavy braking required for long downhill runs definitely favors discs.

On the other side of the spectrum, is the bicycling that I do here in the flatlands, where some days, I can do my entire commute without touching my brakes.  I prefer a Sturmey Archer 3 speed with coaster brake, but I also ride a 70's Schwinn lightweight with a single speed coaster brake hub.  50 years of riding without changing the brake shoes, is another kind of performance, and one that I appreciate.  There is nothing like an old man riding a bicycle to give a personal understanding of conservation of energy.

[Othen]

There is nothing like an old man riding a bicycle to give a personal understanding of conservation of energy.

... the young guys at mountain biking say that about me!

[Nitrowing]

Race bikes?   Those are the ones that go around in circles all day and end up where they started, ...

Yes, those ones - the epitome of handling, acceleration and braking.
The amount of retrogrades I see discussed on this forum... honestly 
I've owned bikes with drum brakes. They're fine on the rear wheel where very little force is required to lock up but on the front?!
As much braking as is necessary to lock the wheel with 2 fingers at 100mph. Anything less is doing yourself a disservice when Mondeo-man pulls out in front of you.

[Keef Sparrow]

Yes, those ones - the epitome of handling, acceleration and braking.
The amount of retrogrades I see discussed on this forum... honestly 
I've owned bikes with drum brakes. They're fine on the rear wheel where very little force is required to lock up but on the front?!

I had a twin leading shoe drum braked Suzuki T500, followed by a GT500 that was essentially the same bike but with better forks and a disc front brake - the difference in braking performance was considerable! The drum was OK at low speeds but soon started to fade as it got hot. The disc was better all round - more powerful, and it never faded when it warmed up. I know which I'd rather have on a long bendy downhill road, or when an idiot car driver pulls out in front of me! I don't like hospital food.

[AzCal Retred]

My DLS GT380 front drum decided to get really grabby when it rained. Fortunately in Phoenix rain riding sessions are few & far between. Having the front brake do a Jekyll & Hyde act isn't confidence inspiring, especially when traction has also changed.

[Keef Sparrow]

Yes, grabby is not good in the wet!

[wr6133]

Everytime I stall my Trials on a wet Chalky/Muddy slope I curse the drum and the fact it don't work backwards, try kick starting a bike when you and everything is coverd in slimey mud and you can't hold it in place on the front 

OP is joking though right, nobody would actually do this?

[Othen]

OP is joking though right, nobody would actually do this?

... I thought that at the start of this thread, but now I'm not sure one or two people aren't serious!

[Adrian II]

I would draw your attention to Hitchcocks' kit, part number 90165! There obviously WAS a demand for this.

https://accessories.hitchcocksmotorcycles.com/accessory-shop/Brakes/19283

A,

[wr6133]

I would draw your attention to Hitchcocks' kit

 

I would love to know in the UK the results of declaring that to an insurer.

"Any mods?"

"Yes I wanted to stop slower so swapped out the brakes"

 

[dickim]

LMAO

[Keef Sparrow]

Everytime I stall my Trials on a wet Chalky/Muddy slope I curse the drum and the fact it don't work backwards, try kick starting a bike when you and everything is coverd in slimey mud and you can't hold it in place on the front 

Your's is obviously an old model Trials. The 2020 Bullet Trials has disc brakes and electric start so both problems solved with those improvements - which some people still want to remove. 

[Adrian II]

I would love to know in the UK the results of declaring that to an insurer.

"Any mods?"

"Yes I wanted to stop slower so swapped out the brakes"

 

They seemed OK with my replacing Not A Fury's front drum with a disk, though. As for disk to drum, I suppose I could argue that having too good a front brake risks the brake out-performing the front tire in the rain and spit me off. I have had that happen, so a weaker front brake COULD be a safety feature! 
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A.

[Bilgemaster]

I would draw your attention to Hitchcocks' kit, part number 90165! There obviously WAS a demand for this.

https://accessories.hitchcocksmotorcycles.com/accessory-shop/Brakes/19283

A,

It looks like Adrian II got it in one. As the Hitchcocks Catalog puts it, "This kit converts a front disc brake system back to the twin leading drum brake fitted to earlier models. We have had owners wanting to make their Classic EFI look more 'Classic' and whist [sic] it is not the typical way to go, we must admit that it does compliment the already good looks of this model."

So, if you've got about £1,000, or roughly $1,200 here in the States or for our polite northerly cousins before shipping, burning a hole in your pocket, you can indulge that retro-fantasy. But then, by coincidence, that's just about what I paid for my drummed out "Iron Belly Military" about four years ago as a light fixer-upper, which looks to the untrained eye like it might have just chuffed out unscathed from the Battle of El Alamein. So, why not just do that? Find some stricken or neglected old Iron Barrel with perhaps a mild case of "spragmatitis", "clogulus carburettae" or "sploodgilistis crankistas breatherae" and resurrect it? You'd then have a REAL engineering fossil instead of a faux one. The "Iron Bellies" have their own peculiar primitive virtues, and aren't TOO hard to find, even in The Frozen North.

[Richard230]

BTW, according my newspaper the exchange rate between the U.S. dollar and the UK pound is now up to about one pound equaling $1.39 USD.

[Othen]

I would draw your attention to Hitchcocks' kit, part number 90165! There obviously WAS a demand for this.

https://accessories.hitchcocksmotorcycles.com/accessory-shop/Brakes/19283

A,

Well done!

When I first saw this I thought it must e a photoshop spoof - but no - there really are people out there with very much more money than sense :-)

Alan

[Bilgemaster]

BTW, according my newspaper the exchange rate between the U.S. dollar and the UK pound is now up to about one pound equaling $1.39 USD.

Well, they've got two prices: domestic UK (with tax) and one for everywhere else. From that I just sort of shot that $1,200 price in dollars tax-free from the hip. As I believe our original poster is Canadian, it would actually work out to 1,359 loonies before shipping. For our Australian cousins, with their even yet more anemic dollar, I fear the cost with shipping might even approach the unimaginable numbers of my last bar tab.

[Adrian II]

Actually the Hitchcocks' kit would be pretty useful for somebody rebuilding an iron barrel Bullet front end after an accident - were it a bit cheaper!

A.

[dickim]

Not Wrong on the exchange Bilge 😡
Came to Oz from U.k in 91 and stupidly listened to bank manager who persuaded me to NOT forward buy $$ - 3mths later worth $20k less.....
Fast fwd  and just settled family estate after Step-Dad passed (Yes Covid) and SHIT Exchange and Robbing Banks (only legal way🤣) dropped 15% 😣😣😣
Swings and roundabouts......housing was cheap now expensive, but the SUN is FREE👍🤣🤣🤣🤣

[Keef Sparrow]

As for disk to drum, I suppose I could argue that having too good a front brake risks the brake out-performing the front tire in the rain and spit me off. I have had that happen, so a weaker front brake COULD be a safety feature! 

This is why they invented ABS, but some people even want to remove that from their later disc braked Royal Enfields.  Even decent drum brakes can lock up and spit you off in the rain if you aren't careful. Experience and rider skill can usually avoid it, but even the best brakes/ABS/rider skills in the world probably won't save you if you have to emergency brake on a diesel slick. 

[Narada]

I would get one of those gorgeous Iron Barrels and be thrilled to have it next to my UCE! 

It would be hard to say no to any IB, but maybe find a "Deluxe", in Chrome?  ooh, man! 

[gizzo]

I don't hate the idea of a drum conversion like some of you do. I love the look of old wire spoked and drum braked SR500, Suzuki titan and gt750 plus those gorgeous grimeca and fontana  brakes on historic race bikes. Imagine a triumph hurricane with big discs. That'd be a world of wrong.

Good drums can be good. It's not like the bullet disc is anything special anyway.