[Guardsman_Miku]

Hi there

My 2016 500 Classic EFI has started making this tik tik sound from the top of the engine, I will attach a short video to demonstrate. It is very noticeable while idling, but mostly goes away when you rev the engine.

I've done a lot of research and as far as I understand this is either to do with damaged hydraulic tappets (which I understand), or something to do with the cams or the rockers (which I don't). I have just done a oil change to see if that was the issue but it doesn't seem to have worked unfortunately.

Anyway, I suppose my main question is how much of an issue is this? I've seen a lot of people who seem to be suggesting they've done thousands of miles under these conditions, I can't tell if people are talking about it because its annoying or if its actually damaging the engine.

Unfortunately I'm supposed to be going on a big motorcycle trip on sunday, so i basically need to decide in the next day or so if i need to cancel or not.

[SteveThackery]

My UCE 500 Bullet made the most appalling mechanical din even from new. The Indians managed to make the hydraulic tappets make more clickety racket than the manually adjusted ones of earlier models. Good knows how they managed that.

They also invented the worst automatic decompressor I've ever seen in my life. I disabled it within a week or collecting the bike. It is totally unnecessary anyway.

So, the noise you can hear might just be what that engine does, but you might want to check out the decompressor in case it is getting hyperactive and engaging - or partially engaging - at speeds near idle.

I'm sure there'll be other suggestions coming along soon.

[Silverback]

My UCE 500 Bullet made the most appalling mechanical din even from new. The Indians managed to make the hydraulic tappets make more clickety racket than the manually adjusted ones of earlier models. Good knows how they managed that.

They also invented the worst automatic decompressor I've ever seen in my life. I disabled it within a week or collecting the bike. It is totally unnecessary anyway.

So, the noise you can hear might just be what that engine does, but you might want to check out the decompressor in case it is getting hyperactive and engaging - or partially engaging - at speeds near idle.

I'm sure there'll be other suggestions coming along soon.

I just replaced my fro t sprocket and putback together. I was thinking of taking off the decompressor but left it on. I wish I would have looked at this post.lol... maybe  I take the case off.

I went through trying to hunt down the ticking sound. I finally just got used to it. Yes the lifters are hydraulic so that rules adjustment out. Cam gear back lash was dead on so there really wasn't anything else to look at.  The bike is running great and now the sound is a part of its character..  the above quoted post characterizes the bike bike well.

It's not a modern bike by any means. The J and 650 platforms are. But this bike is so easy to work on and own it has a special place in my heart.

[Blackdog62]

Mines started doing exactly the same I checked everything cam gear backlash re set and fitted an anti vibration plate and as a precaution carried out a service righthand side cover was already off so replaced the oil pump 'O' ring and 15/50 fully synthetic oil the novice has got worse over the last week and now the ticking noise is almost constant, I considering removing the decompression device or setting it to be continually deactivated the tick tick seems to be coming from the exhaust valve, any advice on this would be greatly appreciated.
The bike has covered 14K miles but I guess these had been fine with local riding unfortunately I do greater distances on motorways and back roads the bikes been a joy until this noise has started its becoming very frustrating to say the least today I've re checked everything again including turning the engine over with the plug out and the valve covers off to check oil is getting up to the top end and it's fine the rocker arms seem fine as do the push rods, I'm lost now so if someone can point me in another direction I'd really appreciate any advice

[Haggis]

Maybe just a tired hydraulic lifter not holding full pressure?  Try a screwdriver under the rocker arm and try and lever the arm down against the lifter. It should not move.

[Blackdog62]

Thanks haggis I've tried this screwdriver thing and I can compress the valve spring without moving the rocker arm so I think the lifters are fortunately okay, I did take out the decompression mechanism and put it all back together with no alteration in the noise which I found very strange, so this morning I have stripped the whole right hand side off the bike again so I have the cams in my hands, I've checked the rollers on the lifters just incase they are the issue but all seems well so got out my micrometer, and measured the decompression cam rod it measures axactly 3.8mm as stamped on the rod, however the hole in the cam measures 4mm exactly now the bike was second hand and originally it was really quiet I'm not sure how it had been ridden up until my ownership but let's just say I don't potter around but I also don't thrash it in every gear I did pop it on the motorway when all this started and it topped out at an indicated 75mph 80 down hill, I'm wondering if the decompression rod has been wrong all along as when the hydraulic lifter runs over the flat (decompression off) there's a 0.1mm drop into the slot this is eve dent when I press on the flat is moves down into the slot creating a step for the lifter to catch on and this might be the issue?
I've ordered the 4.0mm decompression rod from HC and will keep you all posted on my findings, before anyone starts saying there's no load on this erea of the cam well there's enough oil pressure to push the lifter down into the slot and as my noise is worse the more revs I give it I think this might be the case, the oil flow is great and the top of the valves get a nice flow of oil just cranking over on the e start so tick over should be great and as I said the noise had gotten worse once I'd serviced the bike so new oil seals on the crank input shaft and on the pump outlet will give great pressure probably more than before the service sort of proving my theory, but let's see how it goes I'm wondering if quite a lot of these issues are simply the wrong size rod fitted into the exhaust cam

[SteveThackery]

I have to say, @Guardsman_Miku's recording sounds so much better than my 2014 UCE ever did.

@Blackdog62: I doubt that the wrong pins were fitted from new, although of course it is possible.  Do please let us know the results of your experiment.

When I first saw how the decomp worked I was horrified! It's a really harsh lump for the cam follower to negotiate, and its design is horribly crude. I disabled mine immediately, although even then there is still this little dip even in the inactive position that has been mentioned already.  I think the proper cure would be to weld it up and regrind, but it would be far too expensive, I expect.

I don't know why it is even fitted - it is certainly completely unnecessary for starting.  There was a theory that it helped prevent damage to the starter sprag clutch when the engine bounces off compression as it comes to a halt. But that's not a good reason - those early sprag failures were due to a crap design and were fixed by fitting the later, revised, sprag clutch.  Also, loads of bikes kick the starter motor when they stop (including my Meteor and my Mandello), and yet their sprag clutches survive just fine.

I just have to assume that RE were having a bad day when they decided the UCE needed a decomp.

[axman88]

The fellow at NCR Motorcycles on UTube takes us through diagnosis and repair of head noise resulting from a worn valve guide in this video:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GUrOIk7Fkq0

Here we see a collapsed lifter being revealed:   https://www.youtube.com/shorts/o3xgTbtvwy8

And Mono Sagar takes us through the process of pulling a hydraulic lifter:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b25BdqAZLWA

How many kilometers or miles on your 2016?

[Haggis]

The roller on the hydraulic lifters do not drop into the slot where the pin is.
The roller runs about one third on the cam and two thirds over the decompresor pin.
So when the pin is flat the roller is always running on the cam.

[SteveThackery]

The roller on the hydraulic lifters do not drop into the slot where the pin is.
The roller runs about one third on the cam and two thirds over the decompresor pin.
So when the pin is flat the roller is always running on the cam.

Ah, yes, I remember now. Dreadful design.

[Haggis]

Blackdog62,

I had a look at a spare engine I have and pulled the cams out for a look.
There is very slight marking where the lifter roller runs on the cam, nothing you can feel though.
The decompresor pin only lifts the exhaust lifter by 30 thou of a inch.
You can see in the picture how the roller runs on the cam.
Have you checked the endfoat on your cams.
There should be a shim washer on the outside of each cam before the triangular plate is screwed on.
Even then there is a fair bit of play on mine.
Possibly fit more than one shim to reduce the endfoat of the cams maybe reduce your noise?


Bellow is the pin in the raised position.

[SteveThackery]

Possibly fit more than one shim to reduce the endfoat of the cams maybe reduce your noise?

I did that on mine. Reduced the end float to the absolute minimum, but I'm not sure if it really helped.  Might as well do it, though.

[Blackdog62]

So my oil pressure kit arrived this morning so keen to have a definitive answer on the oil pressure and if this would affect the ticking cam noise, I popped out the oil temperature sensor, I fitted the 3/8"unf adaptor and connected the gauge (I re connected the temp sensor to the loose wire to extinguish the mil light)
I started up the bike and bled the line to the gauge.

My findings were at tick over 20psi at 3000rpm 25psi cold zero tappet noise

When warmed up these pressures dropped quite a bit at tick over under 8psi and at 3000rpm it struggled to make 20psi I figure my oil pump may be fubar?

My next step is to remove the rocker covers and the rockers and check for excessive clearances, I figure these will be fine but need to check them as a precaution the fact the oil pressure won't go above 25psi no matter the engine RPM would indicate either a pump or more likely relief valve opening too early?

However the fact the pressure drops off so much once warmed up, and the ticking cams noise returns would indicate the pump can't maintain the pressure in the system to supply the lifters.

My next job will be to remove the right hand side cover replace the thick sponsor supplied gasket with the new thinner one and replace the pump and gasket, both the 'O' ring on the output and the crank shaft seal as well as the jet that sits behind this seal, re fit the side cover and repeat this test to see if I can increase in these pressure figures, over the same test?

My worry is that even with all these jobs done if I can't bring up the oil pressure that there is wear in the block where the lifters slide up and down, and this is where the pressure is effectively being lost.

It just seems odd to me that the pressure will simply not go above 25psi no matter the revs, even cold I would have thought the relief valve would be set well above this figure.

When I checked this valve last time I had the pump off its was so hard to unseat that leads me to think I've got a combination of larger tolerances allowing the thinner warmer oil to escape the system reducing the pressure to the hydraulic lifters?

I can't seem to find any information relating to these and their optimum operating pressures, but I guess it should be more than I'm getting when hot and without drilling into the galleries that feed these lifters I won't be able to actually see what pressures each is receiving.

Anyone who has had experience with these and can give me some advice on issues that I've not considered, I'm not ruling out it's not just the pump and I'm worrying un necessarily, but I like to cover all the options

[muezler]

All information I could find is from an EURO3 service manual.
And they state it should be 4.5Bar    and a flow rate of 9l/min

[Blackdog62]

Thanks Muezler,
I'm getting nowhere near 65psi even at best when cold I'm only getting 25psi, I've no way of measuring the flow rate.
I've ordered a new pump from our sponsors as well as a new filter as this was charged at the last service following the start of this noise it was the same make as I took out but I can't rule out a restrictive filter causing the pump relief to unload?

I might just pop out the filter as my oil is very clean after repeated changes in grade and make, a short run up would identify if the filter is playing any part in this pressure reduction.

At this point I have no confidence in riding the bike as running with the oil pressure this low cannot be a good idea, I notice the Euro4 engine uses a different filter I wonder why this is?
If I do find it's the filter I'll still need to change the pump as the relief valve must be faulty