[SteveThackery]

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/337138816_The_effects_of_the_turbulator_blade-angle_variation_on_the_intake_manifold_for_improving_the_power_and_torque_of_4-stroke_motor_cycle_engine

Thanks, @zimmemr, that's really interesting. It's interesting to see how critical the blade angles are, and I would suspect different engines would require careful selection of the turbulator configuration, rather than a one-size-fits-all.  Just a guess, of course.

The importance of turbulence in the combustion process has been known for many decades, and there are many ways of achieving just the right amount.  (The wrong amount can reduce cylinder filling and reduce power, as demonstrated in that paper.)

It would be great to see a similar academic treatment of the Fin, so we can have more confidence in its efficacy.

[axman88]

  I think the emission test that was sent from INDIA proves the worth of this device.

I think it proves that he went on two different days and one of the testing machines was BADLY out of calibration.  I'll bet everybody who got tested that day passed.   We are expected to believe that the gadget, which wasn't even previously CLAIMED to have effect on emissions, reduces emissions by more than 95%?  This doesn't seem ridiculous and erroneous?

How an ACTUAL test would have been done, would be a comparison using the SAME engine, on the SAME test equipment, with the SAME calibration, and the SAME environmental circumstances, and different ONLY in the presence and absence of the device or condition being tested for.

One starts with the theory, then these days generally would do some Computational Fluid Dynamics (SimFlow has a limited free edition https://sim-flow.com/download/cfd-simulation-software/) , then build the device, then make the tests, then comes the analysis, then the presentation of the results, and finally the claims.   The presentation of "The Fin" in this thread is all over the road, and it does erode credibility.

Inventor and users can't even agree on whether it is a laminar flow assist device, like an airfoil vortex fin kit, or a turbulence inducing device.

All that said, if "The Fin", can also assist me in performing Jedi mind tricks to avoid automatic speed camera fines, I'll flip flop so fast it will make your head spin.  And I'll even be content with only an 85% reduction in emissions.

[richard211]

In reply to Post 54
This Ministry of Petroleum and Natural Gas publication states, "Ethanol Blended Petroleum was launched in January 2003. In 2006, the Ministry of Petroleum
and Natural Gas directed the Public Sector Oil Marketing Companies (OMCs) to sell 5% EBP in 20 states and 4 UTs."      https://mopng.gov.in/files/uploads/BPCL_Ethanol_Booklet_2023.pdf

That was 10 years before your machine was built.

RE user manual for the Classic 500 UCE states, " Use only Unleaded petrol (> 87 octane) from reputed fuel pumps.", but says nothing about ethanol content

In response to that, refer to this link

https://www.niti.gov.in/sites/default/files/2021-06/EthanolBlendingInIndia_compressed.pdf

Page 14 of this documents says the following:

1.4 Currently the gasoline vehicles (2 wheelers & 4 wheelers) in the country are designed for running on pure gasoline and can be tuned to suit ethanol blended fuels ranging from E0 to E5 depending on the vehicle type. On the material compatibility front, the rubber and plastic components are compatible with E10. However, with the proposed target of E20, the vehicles are now required to become both material compatible and tuned for use of E20 fuel
 This report from 2021 clearly states that gasoline engines In India were still being designed to run on pure gasoline.

Now read this news link
https://www.livemint.com/auto-news/petrol-pumps-to-soon-switch-to-bs6-fuel-here-s-what-will-change-11582266110737.html

 As per the directive of the Supreme Court of India on 1st of April 2020 it became mandatory for BS6 fuels to only be sold and all across India at each and every gas station. Any fuel prior to BS6 fuel were not to be sold.

  That is supposed to be a contradiction to what I wrote in my first post about the Fin?
 
 Regular fuel, even the 87 octane was phased out because it would be pointless having a BS6 vehicle run on non BS6 fuels without 10% ethanol since it won’t meet BS6 emissions.

In the BS3 Thunderbird 500 owner’s manual it clearly states to use “Only unleaded petrol >91 octane” and “Ensure that the fuel is not adulterated”. The GT 535 owner’s manual uses the same wording, however in the Classic 500 owner’s manual it mentions >87 octane, but also mentions “Ensure that the fuel is not adulterated”.
 When I read >91 octane, I interpret it as greater than 91 octane. When RE says “Ensure that the fuel is not adulterated” to me it means pure gasoline.

“I have a hard time believing the RE wouldn't allow for use of E10 in their 500 UCE model, since they intended to export it heavily, and ethanol was already being supplied in fuel locally.  My export market C5, which was built in 2011, and is fitted with closed loop ECU and 02 sensor, has been fed ONLY E10, the entire time I've owned it, since nothing else is available locally.  As far as I know, there have been no ill effects.”

Talking about the Indian market, the motorcycles with the UCE 500 engines had a very small market share, Just the UCE Classic 350 variant alone sold over 3 million units during its production run. The UCE 350 engines were all carburetted until the BS6 emissions started and after that, only the Standard bullet 350 BS6 was offered with closed loop fuel injection and the rest of the UCE 350 models were discontinued to make way for the J-series 350cc models. Coming back to the UCE 500 / 535, there were 2 different emission standards the BS3 and the BS4 models.
 Now the UCE 500 BS3 variants had the Bullet 500 carburettor model and open loop EFI on models like the Classic 500 and Thunderbird 500. When the BS4 models were released, all of the 500cc engines had closed loop fuel injection. The ECU’s for the Indian market were specifically listed as Domestic Program and export models ECUs were listed as “Export Program Mod”. The GT 535 from memory were all closed loop EFI, in India.
  The BS3 UCE Thunderbird 500 ECU had its own part number (571056/A) which was different to the BS3 Classic 500 (Part # 592861/B) which also used an open loop EFI. The only difference between the 2 models that I have noticed is that RE mentions octane ratings is different for these 2 models. Furthermore, I have not come across any documentation that states that my UCE 500 Thunderbird is Ethanol compatible.
 The percentage of the UCE 500 EFI motorcycles sold in India, is very small compared to the UCE carburettor models and yet there are so many videos showing how to do carburettor conversions on the UCE 500 EFI models. Why are people having so many issues when these EFI systems are only a few years old and why would they waste so much money on motorcycles with very low resale values. During the later years people in India did not want them and did not want anything to do with them.

P.S:-  I guess Nacelle Strakes are just decorative items as well used by Boeing and Airbus.

[zimmemr]

For those of you that have far more interest in this than I have:

https://www.irjet.net/archives/V9/i6/IRJET-V9I674.pdf

[richard211]

 A more advanced swirl generator made by BMW and company called Borscheid & Wenig for turbocharged applications.

 https://www.eurekamagazine.co.uk/content/technology/polymer-swirl-generator-ups-turbocharger-efficiencies/

[SteveThackery]

Very good information on turbocharged BMWs and gasoline direct injection engines - thanks for those links.

But we need a similar analysis for the Fin.  That's what we're talking about - the Fin.

[axman88]

To folks who want to inject discussion of "swirl" into this thread, I have to point to the picture that the Inventor of the device posted in #6, depicting two very flat, very thin, and apparently parallel, plates.    https://forum.classicmotorworks.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=35011.0;attach=79013;image

I have a hard time seeing why devices that talk about swirling flow around the flow axis to increase turbulence, are relevant to discussion of how "The Fin" works.

The Inventor has told us that, "The Fin helps the laminar flow around the short side of the intake tract".  Laminar flow is not turbulent.

I have a hard time understanding why discussion of the timing of introduction of various percentages of ethanol into gasoline, in various markets, is relevant to discussion of how "The Fin" works.

It seems like everything is being thrown against the wall, and nothing is sticking.

[richard211]

1) The first thing to do is understand the basics of how an open loop fuel injection works.
2) Understand what happens when the wrong fuel is used in an engine when the manufacturer specifies a grade of fuel. To be more specific RE specifies greater than 91 octane fuel. Law says use ethanol BS6 fuel. Since you are dyno experts ask you dyno techs to verify in this specific situation if the engine will work flawlessly, specifically mention there is no O2 sensor or a knock sensor.
3) If one cannot understand that there is a difference between engine tuning for to run 95 octane and E10 blended fuel, there is nothing useful that person can contribute to this discussion. Why are the dyno experts are not aware of this?
 
 Whether anyone likes it or not I have noticed a difference and I stated my findings with my motorcycle, with what fuel i used before and what fuel i use now. Dyno experts cant even figure out an engine running on the wrong fuel is not going to run right, percentage of 0.79 of CO where the max limit is 3.0 and .130 ppm out of max limit of 3000 is well within the permissible limits. Now what happens if that E10 fuel gets burnt better, what will happen to the emissions?

 Now make claims that the exhaust gas analyzer is faulty, its not calibrated and engines swaps etc.

If you guys had any idea of what you were talking about you would have asked me what the spark plugs look like.

 By the way at what rpms do dynos start measuring data?

 I asked if anyone can help make something better, no one will contribute anything.

 

[richard211]

I have a hard time understanding why discussion of the timing of introduction of various percentages of ethanol into gasoline, in various markets, is relevant to discussion of how "The Fin" works.

This Ministry of Petroleum and Natural Gas publication states, "Ethanol Blended Petroleum was launched in January 2003. In 2006, the Ministry of Petroleum
and Natural Gas directed the Public Sector Oil Marketing Companies (OMCs) to sell 5% EBP in 20 states and 4 UTs."      https://mopng.gov.in/files/uploads/BPCL_Ethanol_Booklet_2023.pdf

 

That was 10 years before your machine was built.

 You wanted to imply that only E10 had been sold in India, 10 years prior to my motorcycle being built and when i added facts to support what i said earlier, you don't like it.

[TrianglePete]

Well,I hate to ever add my 2 cents,as  people who don’t like what you say,get mouthy…but I’m a firm believer in Petes fin…I have 2 , one on my classic and one on my wife’s b5…I can’t give you numbers, but I could tell a difference in how it ran,enough that I have acquired other items from  him for my gt.

This is the type of testing I like.    This guy bought one for his bike and another for his wife.   They like how the bikes run..

     Why not do a survey..     Ask the Forum members who are using The Fin  how they like it ??     Or like the other guy says

buy one and test it...    If need be.     

[SteveThackery]

Why not do a survey..     Ask the Forum members who are using The Fin  how they like it ??

buy one and test it...    If need be.   

This is unbelievable - have you still not understood what "objective" means?  And why objective evidence is the ONLY evidence accepted by science?

It isn't possible to remove confirmation bias when you're the schmuk who shelled out dollars to buy the thing.  Subjective impressions are incredibly unreliable, and crucially they are ONLY meaningful to that particular individual.

A dyno provides OBJECTIVE evidence, so I can KNOW FOR SURE that the Acme Superwidget Mk2 does what the inventor claims.

A human being's butt provides SUBJECTIVE evidence only.  It does NOT tell me for sure that the Superwidget works as claimed.  It ONLY tells me about that individual's butt!  Even that individual cannot be sure, because butt dynamometers are notoriously unreliable.

Why is this so difficult for you to understand?

Time and again you tell us to believe the subjective evidence from other people. Time and again you tell us to buy one for ourselves and try it out.

But then you seem vague about whether it only works on UCEs running Indian gasoline, or whether I can fit one (sorry, two) to my Mandello and expect a good result.

The only thing anybody has asked you for is SOME KIND, ANY KIND, OF OBJECTIVE EVIDENCE.  And five pages later you are still rambling on about unrelated subjects and arguing by assertion.

Look, just give us a reproducible dyno run, yeah?  Then this ridiculous conversation will be over and you can get back to manufacturing them.

[axman88]

You wanted to imply that only E10 had been sold in India, 10 years prior to my motorcycle being built and when i added facts to support what i said earlier, you don't like it.

I said that MY Royal Enfield motorcycle was running E10 for years before yours left the factory, and that E5 was being sold in India, years before it was built as well.

What YOU said was:

It is clear that my motorcycle predates E10 fuel.

Clearly E10 pre-existed your motorcycle.  By decades!

A good restart would simply 1) Show what it IS, 2) State what it DOES, and 3) State HOW ya'll think it works.  If you guys elect to start over, people will find it much more convincing if the user group and inventor are making non-contradicting claims.  Try to choose evidence that supports the claims and avoid presenting evidence that is irrelevant.

Be aware that India uses the RON method to calculate octane, while the USA uses the AKI system.
87 AKI = 91 RON.

[TrianglePete]

As a 75 year old retired mechanic lung cancer patient and Grandfather   I was disturbed by the warning this AM

of unhealthy air quality   Do not go outside and do things and breath...  Yikes.    Emissions      That and fuel mileage  was

the reason for The Fin      With the UCE  FI  manifold  and a fondness for thumpers   I started experimenting   This is what I

found vaporized the fuel best.   I never made any HP claim.   Emissions and mileage..  were my goals.

       When richard 211 complained about E-10 fuel   I sold him a Fin manifold and asked to let me know how it works with INDIAN

fuel ??    He liked it and told me he had to take his bike to an emissions test    so I asked if he could get a before and after test

that is what he posted.   There is no required testing were I live.   

[gizzo]

As a 75 year old retired mechanic lung cancer patient and Grandfather   I was disturbed by the warning this AM

of unhealthy air quality   Do not go outside and do things and breath...  Yikes.    Emissions      That and fuel mileage  was

the reason for The Fin      With the UCE  FI  manifold  and a fondness for thumpers   I started experimenting   This is what I

found vaporized the fuel best.   I never made any HP claim.   Emissions and mileage..  were my goals.

       When richard 211 complained about E-10 fuel   I sold him a Fin manifold and asked to let me know how it works with INDIAN

fuel ??    He liked it and told me he had to take his bike to an emissions test    so I asked if he could get a before and after test

that is what he posted.   There is no required testing were I live.

That's good enough for me, too. Anecdotal (empirical, even) evidence is not automatically rubbish. If a guy who knows his bike says it makes a difference, that's pretty credible in my book.

But I'm not the kind of guy who demands facts and figures on one hand and tells people if they know their bike they don't need a tachometer and should be able to shift by 'feel' on the other. I'm not saying you are but there are plenty of those out there.

Good on you, Pete.

This is unbelievable - have you still not understood what "objective" means?  And why objective evidence is the ONLY evidence accepted by science?

Since when? Subjective evidence is all there is in some science. A mental health specialist can't bring out a Head Dyno and measure why a person is feeling the way they do. Maybe a dumb analogy but it's the first thing I thought of.

[gizzo]

Unlike you, apparently, I'm not smarter than the best engineers at Rotax, Ricardo, and all the other top-flight engine designers and consultants used by the motorcycle industry. Nor do I have the multi-million dollar research and test facilities that these engineers use.  As such, I think it is vanishingly unlikely that I might come up with a game-changing technology just by reading something online about aircraft wings. 

Maybe those engineers realised long ago that if they let slip that a simple device was so effective, their sweet, sweet funding will dry up and they'll have to get real jobs.