Author Topic: OIL BREATHER FIX  (Read 28534 times)

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mbevo1

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on: November 30, 2007, 03:48:39 pm
For those who want to keep the stock oil breather system but have problems with clogging and excessive oil blowout,  here's a solution from Tim Busby, an RE expert in New Zealand...  I used it and it works great...

Mike and Stumpy in Michigan

"A Lot of owners of post '04 bikes (Bullets and Electra X) report engine
breather problems; to which end there are several highly (expensive)
touted fixes to 'cure' the 'problem'.
Not required!

The root of the problem is the main engine breather pipe that comes off
the top of the oil tank; it is routed underneath the main frame cross
tube, then it passes underneath the battery, and curves up into the
catch can.
That very first bend in the pipe is acute, (not a good start) and then
the pipe is forced to dip down under the frame tube and battery.
There in lies the problem; that low point dip in the breather pipe
fills with oil and condensate, eventually blocking up. Slowly it is
pumped up to the catch can, in time the catch can fills with the foul
stuff. Soon all the breather lines are blocked with the excrement, and
then the oil and condensate gloop is forced into the air filter
housing...
A double helping of crap on cold soggy toast for dinner...
:-(

The cure:
Disconnect the main breather pipe completely.
Remove the main breather pipe from off the top of engine, and disconect
it from the catch can.
Turn it around so that the acute bend is no longer attached to the top
of the oil tank. (That end is now going and onto the catch can)
Instead of the breather pipe passing UNDER the frame cross tube, run it
OVER the frame and behind the battery, and back up to the catch can.
Ensure that the pipe has a constant rise in it, No dips of falls.
it will be a 'tight' fit, but it does fit...

That is half the fix.
Now any oil that is carried out from the engine with the crankcase fume
and that passes into the breather pipe is able to drain back into the
oil tank. No longer does it condense in the breather pipe and cause it
to block.

The second part of the fix has two options; one is a factory retro
upgrade for the Drain pipe that runs from the catch can back to the
timing cover.
For the Electra X it involves the fitting of a short Duck Bill breather
INSIDE the timing cover, onto the internal end of the breather pipe.
On the Classis, the upgrade involves a replacement Drain pipe with an
internal Duck Bill installed. Though both are interchangable...
This stops the engine from venting UP the Drain pipe, but allows for
any Oil that makes its way into the catch can to drain back into the
timing cover.
In reality, with the repositioned main breather pipe as described
above, next to no all whatsoever ever makes into the catch can!

So I prefer to disconnect the catch-can drain line, and blank off the
drain pipe on the fitting at the rear of the timing cover.
I simply run the drain line down to the rear chain, with a duck bill
fitting on the end of it.
Any oil that does get it to the catch-can is used to lube the chain.
Any fume expelled from the motor is still able to be recycled via the
Air-box.

In the case of the Electra X: Also disconnect the vent line from the
catch can that runs to the Primary chain case, and simply run it down
over the rear of the bike behind the gear box.
Block off the connection at the catch-can to maintained a 'Closed
circuit'.

Instant solution to the engine breather problems!
No more condensate build up in the engine or breather lines, no water
retained in the oil tank; clear breather lines at all times, and no
compromise to pollution control.
Takes about 10-15 minutes to do, and minimal cost for a secondary Duck
Bill breather to go on the end of the relocated drain line.

The net result also features in a slight drop in average crankcase
operating pressure. Oil consumption will be minimalised, and the Gloop
that used to be accumulating in the oil is free to be expelled as the
gaseous vapour the system was originally designed to handle.

Well tested and proved to work 100%.

Tim
N.Z."
'07 Classic - Stumpy
'10 C5 Military - Sherman


BanditRE

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Reply #1 on: December 03, 2007, 02:51:16 am
Thanks Mike. I may give that a look. I just disconnected the return line from the catch can and periodically drain the can. The first few times I drained it I got some goop to drip out but since then.......nothing. I'm wondering if maybe the main pipe is blocked like your write up says. Come spring in Michigan, I'll take a look.

Paul
2007 Military 500ES. 2007 Yamaha Royal Star Tour Deluxe


mbevo1

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Reply #2 on: December 03, 2007, 01:50:08 pm
In the spring when is was quite cool on my morning commute, the crankcase breather would get clogged with "mayo" looking stuff (I had already blocked the return line).  With  the crankcase line clogged, my motor started "using" oil.  No smoke or anything, I just had to add oil all the time.  Tim's fix completely solved the problem... no blocked lines and minimal oil consumption. 

Since it only takes a few minutes to do, and doesn't cost anything, I would think maybe our dealers would include it in their pre-delivery preps... or even better, install it that way at the factory...!

Mike and Stumpy in Michigan
'07 Classic - Stumpy
'10 C5 Military - Sherman


BanditRE

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Reply #3 on: December 03, 2007, 09:06:20 pm
Sounds like the ticket. I hadn't noticed any oil consumption really, except on rides late in the year, after I'd got through the break in mileage. That could be due to clogging or me just riding it a little harder than before and it was still using a bit breaking in further. All will be revealed in spring when I delve into all this stuff! Geez, I tell you, the list of "stuff" I want to look at in spring is getting pretty dran long! I got to learn to stop tinkering........

Thanks again
Paul
2007 Military 500ES. 2007 Yamaha Royal Star Tour Deluxe


LotusSevenMan

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Reply #4 on: December 03, 2007, 09:38:51 pm
Paul.
Most of us start about now as spring isn't long enough to get all those 'little jobs' done!!!!
« Last Edit: February 07, 2008, 07:24:42 am by LotusSevenMan »
If it ain't broke-------------------------- fix it 'till it is!

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BanditRE

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Reply #5 on: December 03, 2007, 11:11:21 pm
Hah! I hear you. I have a small problem with the weather right now though, gets a bit nippy in these parts. I eventually got a propane heater, so I should be able to get a headstart as winter gets a little older. I'm hoping to start late February, early March, that gives me about a month to tinker before its warm enough to ride, and about another month before you really don't want to me messing around in the garage. If global warming helps me out, maybe I can start earlier!
2007 Military 500ES. 2007 Yamaha Royal Star Tour Deluxe


kayyak

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Reply #6 on: October 07, 2009, 02:30:36 pm
Hi Mate, this was so perfect. I have been hunting for a good breather solution for over 10 months now.

With the help of my mechanic in Chennai, India, we have fixed this today.

I have question. What did you do with the routing from the top of the catch can to the air filter? I get some oil from that after topping upto 2.25 liters of oil..
2005 Thunderbird
1978 Bullet (with a 1965 G2 engine) 
196x Interceptor (soon!!)


mbevo1

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Reply #7 on: October 07, 2009, 02:39:36 pm
I have question. What did you do with the routing from the top of the catch can to the air filter? I get some oil from that after topping upto 2.25 liters of oil..

Well, I keep the oil about half-way on the stick... seems to minimize "blow-out".  Only time I had problems with gunk being blown into the airbox was when I overfilled it and didn't keep the catch-can clean.  Still requires checking from time to time...

BTW, I replaced the catch-can setup with a simple breather and power brake boost valve (instead of a duckbill) to the chain.  Found that the catch-can setup still needed periodic cleaning, and its sort of a pain to get it off and re-install.

Mike and Stumpy in Michigan
'07 Classic - Stumpy
'10 C5 Military - Sherman


clamp

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Reply #8 on: October 07, 2009, 04:33:57 pm
I am reading this in amazement, I really don't have any trouble at all with anything.

      Perhaps its the 80-90 degrees that the bike lives in, not dissimilar from the temp in Chennai where I bought it and where it was built.

       Sludge, mayo, all indications of cold short runs.
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mbevo1

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Reply #9 on: October 07, 2009, 06:54:11 pm
I am reading this in amazement, I really don't have any trouble at all with anything.

      Perhaps its the 80-90 degrees that the bike lives in, not dissimilar from the temp in Chennai where I bought it and where it was built.

       Sludge, mayo, all indications of cold short runs.

I'm sure you're on the mark, Clamp... we had a freakin' COLD riding season this year, only made 85F twice in July (if I recall correctly), "coldest" July on record.  Doing a 15 mile run in 40F weather doesn't do a lot to keep things liquified...

Mike and Stumpy in Michigan
'07 Classic - Stumpy
'10 C5 Military - Sherman


kayyak

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Reply #10 on: October 08, 2009, 07:10:59 am
Thanks to Tim, Mike & Stumpy.

I checked the dip stick for oil level, it was towards the upper limit, so I guess excess oil  (of about 200ml) is out now and the system should work well. I am sharing a few pics here. I have attached 2 pics. (Yes, we did fix the catch can near the horn!)

Quote
BTW, I replaced the catch-can setup with a simple breather and power brake boost valve (instead of a duckbill) to the chain.  Found that the catch-can setup still needed periodic cleaning, and its sort of a pain to get it off and re-install.

I guess this is the one in Classic. I am trying a google search to find the right power brake booster valve. Is it the same as the non-return valve? Doesn't this setup throw too much oil on the road (or chain) on high speed? I am testing my bike on a long ride this weekend. 



2005 Thunderbird
1978 Bullet (with a 1965 G2 engine) 
196x Interceptor (soon!!)


kayyak

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Reply #11 on: October 08, 2009, 07:27:19 am
I am reading this in amazement, I really don't have any trouble at all with anything.

      Perhaps its the 80-90 degrees that the bike lives in, not dissimilar from the temp in Chennai where I bought it and where it was built.

       Sludge, mayo, all indications of cold short runs.


I have noticed mayo many times from the breather during short city rides. Yes, chennai is pretty hot, I blame the routing to the catch can. The hose to the air filter in my bike was almost jammed before we decided to remove it all together.

Has anyone noticed (supposedly original AVL design) the breather exhaust from the rocker cover?
2005 Thunderbird
1978 Bullet (with a 1965 G2 engine) 
196x Interceptor (soon!!)


Horizon Chaser

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Reply #12 on: October 08, 2009, 10:57:26 am
Kayyak,
I have noticed it on a Tbird that my friend rides. It's a pity the problem came with the changed design after '04.

Have a great ride this weekend and hope the ride settles this problem once and for all for your Birdie.
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mbevo1

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Reply #13 on: October 08, 2009, 01:49:38 pm
I am trying a google search to find the right power brake booster valve. Is it the same as the non-return valve? Doesn't this setup throw too much oil on the road (or chain) on high speed? I am testing my bike on a long ride this weekend. 

The one I have is for a BMW, I think... I'll see if I can find the vendor and part number.  Haven't had a problem with too much oil being blown out.  Occasionally will find a "drip at the end of the tube.

Mike and Stumpy in Michigan
'07 Classic - Stumpy
'10 C5 Military - Sherman


mbevo1

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Reply #14 on: October 08, 2009, 02:04:06 pm
Here it is... guess it goes on a Volvo.
http://www.fcpgroton.com/product-exec/product_id/1034/nm/Volvo+240+In+Line+C

This was passed along by one of the members of the yahoo groups.  He says the power brake boost/check valves react quicker than something like a PCV valve.   I have mine going to the chain.  He runs a tube from the valve to the back fender.  Has worked well for me...

Mike and Stumpy in Michigan
'07 Classic - Stumpy
'10 C5 Military - Sherman


kayyak

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Reply #15 on: October 13, 2009, 06:02:41 am
Thanks M&S, the routing really worked and the oil leak has stopped!

But as I see the notes from Bunn, his kit seems to be very impressive, running on cleaner oil and no recycling of unwanted stuff back into the tank. My Thunderbird 350 LB (Electra-x engine) is throwing a lot of oil into the catch can, so I prefer not leaving it on the chain but send good stuff back.

What are your thoughts?
2005 Thunderbird
1978 Bullet (with a 1965 G2 engine) 
196x Interceptor (soon!!)


mbevo1

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Reply #16 on: October 13, 2009, 01:34:44 pm
Well, I have the iron-lung, so I'm not familiar with the LB characteristics...  as far as the Bunn goes, I guess most folks hate it or love it.  Seems like an expensive solution to me.  If you have a lot of oil being blown out, you might try extending the line out of the crankcase straight up to the top frame tube before you loop it anywhere.  You can extend that line back to the rear fender if your worried about oil being blown on the chain/tire. 

Ace uses this method and describes it here:
"Here's what to do.
Get some new breather hose at the hardware store. About 6 feet of it, and you can cut off any excess when you're done.
Something like 3/8" inside diameter flexible hose is good. I use the clear vinyl tubing that I got at Lowe's, so I can see what's going on in the breather hose.

Anyway, re-route the new breather hose, so that it curves up high, right at the beginning, where it comes out of the engine connection. Don't kink the hose trying to get it to turn quickly, just curve it upwards to go over the frame under the front ot the seat. Nice and high.

Then lead the hose along the fender brace toward the back of the bike. Use nylon cable ties to hold it to the fender brace. This makes it look nice.

End the hose at the bottom of the tail end of the rear fender.
Put the duckbill on the end, in a way that looks pretty good.
You can trim and fit the way it looks good to you.

End result:
The initial high routing of the breather hose acts like a "stand-pipe", so that any oil that makes it into the breather can run back down into the engine.
The routing of the hose along the fender brace makes the hose almost invisible when installed, keeps the hose up high until the tail end of the bike, and looks good.
The duckbill on the end at the back of the fender will work just as good there as anywhere else in the line. If any oil does make it out the back end of the breather tube, it will drop harmlessly onto the road, and not get on you, or the wheel, or anywhere else on the bike.

This is a breather system that works."

Mike and Stumpy in Michigan
'07 Classic - Stumpy
'10 C5 Military - Sherman


Terry_Finland

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Reply #17 on: May 13, 2021, 06:54:57 am
Hello Guys,

I do have machismo 500 from India here in Finland. Itś having heavy oil leak from airfilter. Do you guys have any picture or videos showing how to fix this issue?
 kind regards,
Terry


Adrian II

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Reply #18 on: May 13, 2021, 08:23:32 pm
OK, you have got a blocked main breather pipe. It will be clogged with emulsified oil residue/mayonnaise/elephant snot.

When the crankcase can't breathe through its main breather pipe (the one off the top of the oil tank), it looks for another route to vent. Unfortunately, with the factory set-up the only route available is up the oil return pipe from the catch-can, which enters the engine at the back of the timing chest. There's a small duck-bill on the return pipe stub inside the timing chest, which is SUPPOSED to stop oil being forced back up the pipe, and it fails miserably.

Once oil DOES start getting pumped up the return pipe if fills the catch-can, and from there it flows up the hose that links the catch-can to the air filter box, and then onto the garage floor or your rear tyre.

My Electra-X (very similar to the A500 Machismo, some different tin-ware) did exactly the same.

Your best hope is to rip out the old breather catch-can and pipework, plug the return pipe stub at the back of the timing chest and fit THIS.



The short 90° hose bend fits onto the breather stub on top of the oil tank. From there it connects to a one-way or non-return valve, and that it turn is fitted to a longer piece of hose which runs along the rear chain guard to the back of the motorcycle. Just needs three hose lips and something to fix the end of the hose in position.

If you can, go over to the AVL section of the forum and say "Hi", with a picture of your Machismo if possible.

A.
Grumpy Brit still seeking 500 AVL Bullet perfection! Will let you know if I get anywhere near...


Karl Childers

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Reply #19 on: July 11, 2021, 04:18:38 pm
 Instead of blocking off the return line  use a barbed T fitting and connect it to the line you are using from the oil tank vent and routed to the back fender. From what I can see that would get you more direct venting to the crankcase as well. Unless I'm mistaken there is no seal between the crank case and timing chest.


AzCal Retred

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Reply #20 on: July 12, 2021, 05:26:00 am
I tried several of these fixes with limited results. After I installed an Hitchcock's forged piston and steel rings on a new alloy cylinder, no more Nivea. The steel rings actually sealed. The combustion byproduct water vapor was now mostly going out the exhaust, not squeezing into the relatively cool crankcase & building up, then being whipping into mayonnaise, then splooging out the vent line along with the other blow-by gasses. Now I just need to install an intake valve seal to take care of the oil being sucked in by that route. The H's "separator" oil fill extension definitely makes it easier to top off the oil tank though... ;D
A trifecta of Pre-Unit Bullets: a Red Deluxe 500, a Green Standard 500, and a Black ES 350.


Karl Childers

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Reply #21 on: July 12, 2021, 05:38:48 am
I tried several of these fixes with limited results. After I installed an Hitchcock's forged piston and steel rings on a new alloy cylinder, no more Nivea. The steel rings actually sealed. The combustion byproduct water vapor was now mostly going out the exhaust, not squeezing into the relatively cool crankcase & building up, then being whipping into mayonnaise, then splooging out the vent line along with the other blow-by gasses. Now I just need to install an intake valve seal to take care of the oil being sucked in by that route. The H's "separator" oil fill extension definitely makes it easier to top off the oil tank though... ;D

Somewhere in the the not to far off future I want to change the piston, barrel and rings out as you have for the reasons you mention in your post plus I am reading too many posts about the stock pistons breaking to make me feel comfortable about running one for too long.


AzCal Retred

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Reply #22 on: July 14, 2021, 03:05:44 pm
The stock Velveeta pistons seem to have multifunctional failure modes, seizing under a gradual climb situation, dropping skirts, and shedding the crown as well. For about $500 USD you add a lot of thermal & mechanical toughness to the motor, as well as gaining peace of mind. If I had a 5-speed I'd likely have gotten the 8.5/1 slug. Then you could retard the intake cam & have some extra RPM & HP to play with. You'd have a nice selection of ratios to fine tune road speed & load. My 4-speeds are "deliberate" shifters with agrarian ratios, useful but pragmatic, so I got the 6.5/1 set up instead. It works for my needs.
A trifecta of Pre-Unit Bullets: a Red Deluxe 500, a Green Standard 500, and a Black ES 350.


Karl Childers

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Reply #23 on: July 16, 2021, 04:43:20 am
The stock Velveeta pistons seem to have multifunctional failure modes, seizing under a gradual climb situation, dropping skirts, and shedding the crown as well. For about $500 USD you add a lot of thermal & mechanical toughness to the motor, as well as gaining peace of mind. If I had a 5-speed I'd likely have gotten the 8.5/1 slug. Then you could retard the intake cam & have some extra RPM & HP to play with. You'd have a nice selection of ratios to fine tune road speed & load. My 4-speeds are "deliberate" shifters with agrarian ratios, useful but pragmatic, so I got the 6.5/1 set up instead. It works for my needs.

When you buy the aluminum barrel does the piston come sized to the bore or will final machining need to be done?


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Reply #24 on: July 16, 2021, 06:44:46 pm
Did the hose to the rear fender with a duck bill on my 02 ES.   Had a 70s Triumph 500 that ran the breather hose sans duck bill the same way.   Another one I should have kept!


AzCal Retred

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Reply #25 on: July 16, 2021, 08:11:29 pm
@ #23: My "standard" unchecked alloy barrel I bought from CMW 12 years ago fit up to the new forged piston I bought from Hitchcocks this year with about 0.0045" - 0.0050" "slop", about right for a forged slug. Hitchcocks can sell you a "guaranteed fitted" set if you buy the miked/tested/checked barrel at the same time. Shoot them an e-mail with your name & membership number. The fitted barrel is cheaper than a bore job on an unchecked barrel. If you have any tappet noises, the alloy barrel does a fine job of amplifying them. Earplugs are my fix... ;D  "Loud valves save lives!"
A trifecta of Pre-Unit Bullets: a Red Deluxe 500, a Green Standard 500, and a Black ES 350.