[Rick Dangerous]

The #1 piece of information i want on a motorcycle is when i'm about to hit redline so i can shift; yet i notice less and less new bikes have them.  WHY?!

I've been told "well you just sort of listen and feel the powerband and you'll know when to shift". Uh...no thanks, i want to know to the hundredth of an RPM thank you very much.

So many bikes I won't consider because they no longer include tacho's.  What is going on here?

[AzCal Retred]

Which bikes are you specifically concerned with? There are a bewildering variety of sub-$50 add-on electronic tachometers available. Don't let lack of a tach stop a good deal from happening. Unless it makes real horsepower and turns some actual RPM, there's no point - just chuff along & "use the Force"! 
Redlines are a suggestion anyway, just telling you when the "fuse" starts burning. The longer you spend there the more it'll cost later. OR, get a nice used Hayabusa or ZX14, the red line will likely not see a lot of use. When trying to force 180 HP thru maybe 20 square inches of contact patch, the pucker on the seat will likely let you know when it's "enough"!

[Karl Childers]

Personally I'd rather have a tachometer than ABS or traction control but I'm old fashion. Possibly it is due to the current wave of customers being so disassociated from the mechanical aspect of motorcycles as to render it meaningless. Maybe calling it an "RPM App"  and have it accessed from your phone may generate some interest.

[zimmemr]

The #1 piece of information i want on a motorcycle is when i'm about to hit redline so i can shift; yet i notice less and less new bikes have them.  WHY?!

I've been told "well you just sort of listen and feel the powerband and you'll know when to shift". Uh...no thanks, i want to know to the hundredth of an RPM thank you very much.

So many bikes I won't consider because they no longer include tacho's.  What is going on here?

A tach is useful, but there's an awful lot of race bikes that don't use them and the riders seem to wring all the power out of them their engines can muster without knowing where a needle is pointing.  I think that even on race bikes that do use them, mostly road racers and some drag bikes, you'll find the riders don't pay all that much attention to them.

I'd also suggest that if you're running to redline in every gear before shifting, you're basically running into the "empty rev" zone which wastes time and power and can be hard on the motor. Learn to shift when the torque peak drops off, which is always some hundred(s) of rpm before red line, (in some cases 1,000(s)) and you and the bike will be better off for it.

[Rick Dangerous]

Personally I'd rather have a tachometer than ABS or traction control but I'm old fashion. Possibly it is due to the current wave of customers being so disassociated from the mechanical aspect of motorcycles as to render it meaningless. Maybe calling it an "RPM App"  and have it accessed from your phone may generate some interest.

100%.  Totally indifferent to ABS/Traction control; just let me see my revs already!

Lots of Moto-guzzi, Ducati, Indian, Triumph, etc. bikes no longer come with a tach that had them on similar models 10 years ago or less.  Or you only see them on "special" models these days.  You would think it would be a pretty important thing to have on a vehicle with a manual transmission.   A ton of bikes are "single gauge" these days.  I can't stand digital gauges either but thats a story for another thread i guess.

[viczena]

Tachs are quite uninteresting. After a short while you hear/feel if the bike runs right.

An excemption would be a  high rev bike without rpm limiter.

[NVDucati]

snip
So many bikes I won't consider because they no longer include tacho's.  What is going on here?

In a hyphenated word; rev-limiters.
That plus folks who use programmable ECUs you can adjust where exactly the rev-limiter kicks in.
But I completely agree with you about wanting a tach. I think that if I want a particular bike that doesn't come one ... I'd buy an induction tach. They are very affordable and accurate. You can choose whatever style/size display you want.
One of a giddle choices comes with 7 colors of faces for $35.
https://www.amazon.com/SREUOIL-52mm-Tachometer-Tacho-Gauge-Smoke-Face-Color-Tinted-Meter-0-8000-RPM-Cylinder/dp/B09D3Q7NVB/ref=sr_1_1_sspa?crid=UW7HCOZFV9XS&keywords=SREUOIL+52mm+Tachometer+2%22+Tacho&qid=1642531281&sprefix=sreuoil+52mm+tachometer+2+tacho%2Caps%2C330&sr=8-1-spons&psc=1&spLa=ZW5jcnlwdGVkUXVhbGlmaWVyPUEzUDFaU1BPS01KNzNCJmVuY3J5cHRlZElkPUEwMDcyNTkxMUlZMjNVOFFKRVRDNCZlbmNyeXB0ZWRBZElkPUEwMjYyODg0N1c3TFpROE9YSDRIJndpZGdldE5hbWU9c3BfYXRmJmFjdGlvbj1jbGlja1JlZGlyZWN0JmRvTm90TG9nQ2xpY2s9dHJ1ZQ==

[zimmemr]

100%.  Totally indifferent to ABS/Traction control; just let me see my revs already!

Lots of Moto-guzzi, Ducati, Indian, Triumph, etc. bikes no longer come with a tach that had them on similar models 10 years ago or less.  Or you only see them on "special" models these days.  You would think it would be a pretty important thing to have on a vehicle with a manual transmission.   A ton of bikes are "single gauge" these days.  I can't stand digital gauges either but thats a story for another thread i guess.

For the sake of conversation that was just as true 30, 40 or 50 years ago. Back in the day a tach was often used to denote a "sporting" version of a bike. For example, the single carb/low compression BSA 650 Thunderbolt had only a speedometer while it's sportier brothers the Lightening and Spitfire to name just two came with both instruments. Likewise, the Harley Sportster, the hot rod CH came with a tach while the more sedate H model had only a speedo. BMW /2's only offered them as options no matter what you bought. I'd offer it was the influx of Japanese bikes in the 60's, many of which came with tachs, that made them a standard fitment. 

[Keef Sparrow]

I think virtually all modern bikes have had rev limiters for many years now, and they largely make rev counters obsolete as you can't over rev the bike even if you try.

[Karl Childers]

Take a look at a dynometer chart for either your stock or modified bike and you will see where the torque and horsepower curve intersect and that's you motor's sweet spot, yeah the seat of your pants will kind of tell but a tach tells you right where you're at and I find that useful on day rides with my more modern motorcycles that have six speeds and I'm out in the country cruising at 80 mph I know exactly what rpm I'm at and not lugging it or over revving it in 5th and 6th gear. the seat of the pants and your ear are not the most reliable gauge in an 80 mph wind blast. Then there is the rev limiter, yes it will keep you from floating your valves and worse but then there's the passing cars on a short straight away scenario. You pull out whack the throttle and get by as quick as you can before another car comes the other way only you start bouncing off the rev limiter because you should have upshifted one more time. A quick glance at the tach would would have told the story but without it you're bouncing off the limiter in the passing lane losing momentum with a car coming. To me a tach is very much a nicety in those situations. My Harley will pull a pass in one gear my Beemer doesn't come on the cam until 6,000 rpm and then it's a short hop to redline and always takes two gears  for a slingshot pass and the shift point is critical.

I even have a tach in my old 300cu. in six cylinder Ford pick up. All the power in that motor is at 2,500 rpms or less anything more is a waste of fuel  and adds wear and tear, if you know your engine a tach is a useful tool to have.

[GlennF]

I think virtually all modern bikes have had rev limiters for many years now, and they largely make rev counters obsolete as you can't over rev the bike even if you try.

This is the main reason and a good thing. Accidently going 1500 rpm over the red line on a missed shift on older bikes never gave a good feeling.

As far as watching the tacho to know when to shift, I heard it said once that all that does is distract your attention from the road and you really should know your bike well enough to shift at the optimal point while watching the road not the tacho.

[Richard230]

This is the main reason and a good thing. Accidently going 1500 rpm over the red line on a missed shift on older bikes never gave a good feeling.

As far as watching the tacho to know when to shift, I heard it said once that all that does is distract your attention from the road and you really should know your bike well enough to shift at the optimal point while watching the road not the tacho.

With my 1964 Honda CB305 Super Hawk, going over the 9,200 rpm red line by 1 rpm would cause the valves to float. 

[AzCal Retred]

I'm with Keef, Zim & NVD here, riding by feel can get you around a race track plenty fast. The random environment of the street needs more "survival" and less "go fast" mindset. I'm sure an Expert level rider will always out-ride the average guy even if you duct tape over his tach.

An old school high-angle, 2-heavy-valves-design motor is way more likely to tangle its valves or float them into a piston crown than current design 4 & 5 valve, low-angle motors. Electronic ignition rev limiters keep you out of the factory float zone unless over-ridden by the owner-tuner-tinkerer. If you still feel left out, tachs are a cheap & easy recreational add on.
 
If you are regularly wringing out a (non-desmo!) 2-valve motor, there's lots of pricey bits need to be added to assure the valves are actually following the cam profile accurately & avoiding the piston. Or just get something used with actual horsepower, like a Hayabusa/ZX14 & get it out of your system...probably cheaper in the long run. I doubt you'll spend much time exploring its 11K+ redline.   My experience is that a 2-lane highway gets pretty narrow over 100 MPH, let alone 180.

[Karl Childers]

Riding fast on the street and racing are two very different things. You won't find a tach on a flat tracker for example because racing is all about pushing your bike to the just this side of the limit mechanically and staying ahead of the guy who is trying to pass you, if your bike holds together you win if not you blow the motor and either your sponsor has your pit crew put the spare motor in for the next heat or if you're a privateer you're up shitz creek and scrambling to get your bike ready for next week because you are out of it for this one. That's why there's no tachs on flat trackers or motocross bikes, it's balls to the wall. Hang around the track long enough and you will always hear "Man the bike was running sweeter than it ever did just before the motor blew up". Endurance racing and moto GP involves a different strategy, the races are longer and you're just nursing it along in the top three until final few laps and then the same thing comes into play, if you haven't used your tires up you pull out all the stops and go for it, there's very little sympathy for the machinery at that point. I've owned some fast cafe racers and sport bikes, have been faster than most guys I know yet was never afraid to take a glance at my tach no matter how fast I was going, there's an advantage to knowing what your motor is doing especially when you don't have deep pockets to fix it every week and I still left everyone in my dust.



I

[AzCal Retred]

Top three is pretty rarified turf. If you're "you're just nursing it along in the top three" that says a lot about your basic skill set!   

Desert racers routinely run 90 to 120+ miles at 80% - 90% race pace with no tachs. Some open jeep road sections are 80 MPH or better on knobbies for a few miles. Fast guys will always go fast, I've found. A skilled, disciplined rider that has some mechanical sympathy has a far better chance of finishing, & placing/winning in an endurance event than a "wildcat" rider. Undisciplined wild riders can break anything, either by crashing or mechanical abuse.   

A tach informs you but doesn't affect your skill level. A tach can obviously be a great tool if you are routinely "pushing it" to redline levels to maximize HP & acceleration, but my point was that if you have plenty of HP on tap (Hayabusa/ZX14) you are likely not going to be glued to the redline looking for more. Spending the engine's service life at redline shortens that life, and as speed generally equals HP, going fast on a higher HP machine is easier on the engine. Maybe not so much for the tires, brakes & rider, but with real HP on tap the engine doesn't need to work at maximum effort nearly as much. On a track where everyone's likely on the same displacement level, high RPMs are a forgone conclusion. On the street, unless you have the "deep pockets" for regular rebuilds, more cubes is probably a better long term solution than continuous high RPM.

[Karl Childers]

Top three is pretty rarified turf. If you're "you're just nursing it along in the top three" that says a lot about your basic skill set! 

I especially like the 500 two stroke era of Moto GP, talk about basic skill set! Mick Doohan, Wayne Rainey, Kevin Schwantz ,  Nial Mackenzie, Eddie Lawson, those guys were gods!

A good friend and riding buddy of mine here is a former AMA Pro Flat Track national number holder who used to race against guys like Scotty Parker and Joe Kopp, I can't say as though I can beat him when were messing around on mountain roads on fast bikes but he can't lose me either. Over the years I've had the pleasure of meeting a few of his contemporaries, more talent I'm in awe of and getting to cut a few hot laps on one of his Carl Patrick built XR 750's was something I won't soon forget.

[Morgan65]

In my opinion I think the missing tacks are really a cost thing on new bikes. Most people are looking for cheapest price so the manufacturers do what they can to sell bikes. I do like to see them mostly because I’m old school and I like the balance on the dash. With the modern day EFI bikes they all have rev limiters build in anyway, so you can’t go over the redline if you wanted to.

To me the tacks are only really useful when I’m breaking in a new motor, well some what useful. I really go by the sound of the motor and the feel of the bike. I never lug the motor, except just a little bit on a well broken in HD, RE, or Guzzi motor. I get a real kick out of the feel and sound of that thump thump thump.

If I was a racer or worried about getting the best mpg I would assuredly feel definitely about it.

[NVDucati]

Let's not forget that nearly every engine reaches peak power a little shy of redline. After the point of peak power as the RPM continues to climb, yes, so will the MPH. However the rate of acceleration falls off.

More often than not, you can make faster forward progress coming up through the gears by shifting slightly below redline. You see it on all the various dyno sheets and with some practice you can tune your brain to know when. On a street bike that forward progress (rate of acceleration) matters when passing with limited space. It also comes in handy when sporting around with your buddies .

[Richard230]

If you ride a Honda with a DCT transmission you will never need a tach.   

And speaking of tachs, my first 2012 Zero electric motorcycle had an digital tach that showed engine speed in 1 rpm (like 4158) increments. What a completely useless device on an electric motorcycle, plus the numbers changed so rapidly that you couldn't read them. I assume that the company just plucked the instrument display off of an ICE shelf and hooked it up to the bike.  After that year they dispensed with a tachometer.

[zimmemr]

I've been around and involved in racing since 1971, in particular dirt trackers. I've built bikes, tuned bikes and raced the damn things and all around have produced more winners than losers. In all that time I never once heard anyone say they lost a race because they didn't have a tach. 

BTW the days of dirt trackers blowing up on the track are long gone, especially at the national level. Modern engines are just too well built, and everyone has a rev limiter. Plus, the guys all know how to gear so the bike doesn't normally over rev. The days of your XR750's flywheels shifting and wiping out the motor went away when the XR's went away. 

[Rick Dangerous]

I do like to see them mostly because I’m old school and I like the balance on the dash.

I think this is a big part of it for me; i just think bikes look better with two gauges rather than one or especially one big one.

[Karl Childers]

I've been around and involved in racing since 1971, in particular dirt trackers. I've built bikes, tuned bikes and raced the damn things and all around have produced more winners than losers. In all that time I never once heard anyone say they lost a race because they didn't have a tach. 

BTW the days of dirt trackers blowing up on the track are long gone, especially at the national level. Modern engines are just too well built, and everyone has a rev limiter. Plus, the guys all know how to gear so the bike doesn't normally over rev. The days of your XR750's flywheels shifting and wiping out the motor went away when the XR's went away. 

When the XR's went away so did my interest in flat track.

[zimmemr]

When the XR's went away so did my interest in flat track.

Sorry to hear that, although some of my buddies said the same thing when the KR's went away. I still hit as many nationals a year as I can, and as much as I found fault with Mike Locke and his vision of what AFT should be. I have to say the racing has been damn good this season. 

[Karl Childers]

I started following flat track back when guys like Gary Nixon and Dave Aldana were forces to be reckoned with and the 60's and 70's were my favorite era. I know the XR's got to hang on a bit longer thanks  to the rule book but the days of Triumph, BSA, Norton and Harley slugging it out were some of my favorites. Like I mentioned earlier about Moto GP  I favor certain years over others. Like all racing I know things have to move ahead and change and I don't want to see dirt track die out, it's been the launch pad for many talented riders over the years and a great place to learn the ropes. Eddie Lawson is one of many that is a good example of that. I think I'm done travelling to nationals, there's some club racing south of me and I can follow the races on TV. I do wish the best for the sport and want to see it continue on.

[AzCal Retred]

KC @ #15: As a former Novice level ADRA rider, my take on the Expert level riders is that they didn't even appear to be on the same course as I was. Getting passed (hopefully) 1/2 way thru lap #2 by the fast guys was enlightening. They managed to find traction on gravel covered baked caliche. Mostly they touched ground every 30-50 feet or so as they "bunny hopped" thru the rough sections, just to change direction. If you apply yourself, one can learn to ride very well, but those with real skill take it to a whole 'nother level. The top 3 guys are normally close in skill & hardware, any mistake can turn lead position into a win for the guy 1/2 second back. That's racing!

[zimmemr]

I started following flat track back when guys like Gary Nixon and Dave Aldana were forces to be reckoned with and the 60's and 70's were my favorite era. I know the XR's got to hang on a bit longer thanks  to the rule book but the days of Triumph, BSA, Norton and Harley slugging it out were some of my favorites. Like I mentioned earlier about Moto GP  I favor certain years over others. Like all racing I know things have to move ahead and change and I don't want to see dirt track die out, it's been the launch pad for many talented riders over the years and a great place to learn the ropes. Eddie Lawson is one of many that is a good example of that. I think I'm done travelling to nationals, there's some club racing south of me and I can follow the races on TV. I do wish the best for the sport and want to see it continue on.

I'd argue that the XR hung on because it was a good, fast race bike with acceptable reliability. And HD was willing to spend money to help keep the sport alive. But I agree, there was some great racing back then, especially when Roberts and Yamaha got into the act.
 

[Morgan65]

I think this is a big part of it for me; i just think bikes look better with two gauges rather than one or especially one big one.

I’ve been seeing a lot of bikes now going to just one speedo pod such is on the new 2022 HD Sportster S. I’ve test rode this bike and I got to say it works very well, even for my old eyes.
https://i2.wp.com/thunderpress.net/wp-content/uploads/2021/09/KWP-1758-scaled.jpg?w=1790&ssl=1

[zimmemr]

I’ve been seeing a lot of bikes now going to just one speedo pod such is on the new 2022 HD Sportster S. I’ve test rode this bike and I got to say it works very well, even for my old eyes.
https://i2.wp.com/thunderpress.net/wp-content/uploads/2021/09/KWP-1758-scaled.jpg?w=1790&ssl=1

Everything old is new again. Older riders will recall when most Japanese bikes incorporated a speedo and tach into a headlight binnacle as did the /5 BMW's.

[Carl Fenn]

Well l came from the old school we never had tacos only in our ears, my motocross bikes had no speedo either, less clutter the better.

[AzCal Retred]

The local CZ riders didn't even have much use for a clutch lever either...   Russian Tough!

[zimmemr]

The local CZ riders didn't even have much use for a clutch lever either...   Russian Tough!

That's the truth. When I was a kid some of the local tracks made you place your left hand on your head when you were lined up for the start. When the flag dropped you grabbed the clutch, stuff it in gear and off you went. I vividly recall CZ riders pinning the throttle, latching onto the bar, and stuffing their bikes into gear sans clutch. They usually got the hole shot and I never once saw one explode. They were great bikes, I had one of those old steel tank, 4-speedCZ'z and it was built like a brick shit house. 

[Arschloch]

I don't know which exact model you mean, however i can assuere you if you give one to an real "soviet" mechanic you will be changing pistons every 50 miles due to seizure because he might have installed the oversized one to tune the engine and reduce the blow by gasses. Big end may last couple of 100 miles though, maybe 3 piston seizures.

[AzCal Retred]

Hmmm...The old 70's CZ race bike was what I had in mind, not the street 350 Jawa and the like. The ones we raced were hammers. We maintained them reasonably, top ends ran at least a season of Desert, maybe two, and bottom ends were bulletproof at a 20:1 to 24:1 mix. They were definitely heavy, short travel, and didn't have the power of the Japanese machines. But they were physically tough and more than good enough for Novice & mid-pack Amateur riders to campaign on.

Anything can be made to be unreliable, that isn't a critique of the design. An actual mechanic, with real parts and access to basic machine shop services will build you a hammer, not a hand grenade. The pre-Unit Bullet is unreliable if owned & operated by a "fooking eejit", but reasonably reliable when fettled by a knowledgeable & mechanically sympathetic owner. Sounds like your CZ mechanic in the past was just "practicing on someone else's dime". 

[GlennF]

To be honest , no bike I have ever owned has actually needed the tach.

[Karl Childers]

Every sport bike I've ever owned has had a tach.

[GlennF]

Every sport bike I've ever owned has had a tach.

Never owned one

Closest to a sports bike was a shaft drive XJ900

[zimmemr]

Hmmm...The old 70's CZ race bike was what I had in mind, not the street 350 Jawa and the like. The ones we raced were hammers. We maintained them reasonably, top ends ran at least a season of Desert, maybe two, and bottom ends were bulletproof at a 20:1 to 24:1 mix. They were definitely heavy, short travel, and didn't have the power of the Japanese machines. But they were physically tough and more than good enough for Novice & mid-pack Amateur riders to campaign on.

Anything can be made to be unreliable, that isn't a critique of the design. An actual mechanic, with real parts and access to basic machine shop services will build you a hammer, not a hand grenade. The pre-Unit Bullet is unreliable if owned & operated by a "fooking eejit", but reasonably reliable when fettled by a knowledgeable & mechanically sympathetic owner. Sounds like your CZ mechanic in the past was just "practicing on someone else's dime".

+1

[Jack Straw]

Tachometers on mildly tuned modern street bikes appeal mainly to boy-racers.   I had a tach on my road race bike and looked at it once in a while.  That scooter had a pretty wide power band and ran out of horsepower well short of "redline".

If you're convinced you need a tachometer perhaps you should be on a track.