[Richard230]

Attached is an article from my newspaper today that discusses Chevy's new electric pickup that you might find interesting.

[AzCal Retred]

The only reason to go to all batteries is that the folks selling batteries are making really good money doing it. Synthetic fuels and H2 vehicles make more sense. Most pickup owners expect their trucks to carry 1,000 pounds a 1,000 miles whenever the mood strikes. Towing your ski boat from LA to Lake Meade and spending an extra 3 hours in Baker admiring the World's Tallest Thermometer won't add to the incentive to abandon gas or diesel.

[Richard230]

The only reason to go to all batteries is that the folks selling batteries are making really good money doing it. Synthetic fuels and H2 vehicles make more sense. Most pickup owners expect their trucks to carry 1,000 pounds a 1,000 miles whenever the mood strikes. Towing your ski boat from LA to Lake Meade and spending an extra 3 hours in Baker admiring the World's Tallest Thermometer won't add to the incentive to abandon gas or diesel.

Plus, who wants to own a pickup truck that doesn't make a lot of smoke and noise? 

[GlennF]

I think the current market for EV Pickup trucks is commercial operators - not people wanting to upgrade their shiny customised V8 powered off road toy that they take camping and fishing.

[AzCal Retred]

@ #2: " Plus, who wants to own a pickup truck that doesn't make a lot of smoke and noise?  "
Judging from local sales, not too many! 

[Richard230]

@ #2: " Plus, who wants to own a pickup truck that doesn't make a lot of smoke and noise?  "
Judging from local sales, not too many! 

 

"Blowing coal" really gets EV enthusiasts upset. And I don't blame them.

[AzCal Retred]

All of these diesel truck owners are keenly aware of their truck's ability to do this. Getting ahead of someone and deliberately blinding & choking them out on a public road with diesel soot is a pretty aggressive thing to do in an era of freeway shootings & road rage. To imagine for a second that somehow the size of your tinfoil door equipped truck will save you from someone truly nuts that you have just really pissed off requires the ability to deny physical reality...so, the perfect voter?

[Adrian II]

Rollin' Coal doesn't always have to make loads of soot...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m08B5mAkl1Q

And the worst "offenders" here seem to be the oil-fired machines!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=78Rl6BWoQp0&t=87s

A.

[viczena]

The only reason to go to all batteries is that the folks selling batteries are making really good money doing it. Synthetic fuels and H2 vehicles make more sense. Most pickup owners expect their trucks to carry 1,000 pounds a 1,000 miles whenever the mood strikes. Towing your ski boat from LA to Lake Meade and spending an extra 3 hours in Baker admiring the World's Tallest Thermometer won't add to the incentive to abandon gas or diesel.

Synthetic Fuel and H2 are expensive and inefficient. They are already dead.

[AzCal Retred]

Are you on drugs or just trolling? Only German car makers are minimizing H2 as a viable fuel, actual auto producers are all over it.

https://www.hyundaiusa.com/us/en/vehicles/nexo

https://automobiles.honda.com/clarity-fuel-cell

https://www.toyota.com/mirai/

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/06/21/by-land-sea-and-air-gm-to-expand-fuel-cell-business-beyond-evs.html

https://fuelcellsworks.com/news/kias-first-hydrogen-electric-vehicle-is-military-hydrogen-fueled-electric-vehicle/

[viczena]

Maybe you should stop drinking blue colour.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/michaeltaylor/2021/12/31/hyundai-freezes-third-gen-hydrogen-fuel-cell-ev-development/?sh=412990f13588

https://thedriven.io/2021/06/23/honda-discontinues-clarity-hydrogen-fuel-cell-and-plug-in-hybrid/

https://gmauthority.com/blog/2020/07/gm-not-planning-hydrogen-powered-consumer-vehicles-for-the-time-being/

https://thekoreancarblog.com/2021/09/09/kias-first-hydrogen-vehicle-wont-arrive-till-2028/

Only Toyata is still involved. In the false hope they could afford to pass EVs. That also changed recently.

[AzCal Retred]

Maybe you need to climb out of the dark pit of despair & nihilism. Enjoy the blue news. Nobody needs an oil well to make H2, there's always that. If the idea is to decarbonize, H2 can get you there, your country isn't an energy hostage. H2 provides a mechanism to store in-country produced renewables cheaply. There is a price to be paid when you depend on a 3rd party for your energy, especially one that may not have your best interests in mind.

https://www.caranddriver.com/hyundai/nexo
2022 Hyundai Nexo
As the sole hydrogen-powered SUV, the Hyundai Nexo is in a class of its own

https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1132633_honda-clarity-plug-in-hybrid-is-gone-after-2021-but-clarity-fuel-cell-will-linger-into-2022

https://pressroom.toyota.com/zero-emissions-in-style-2022-toyota-mirai-pricing-announced/

https://www.forbes.com/wheels/news/gm-enters-fuel-cell-business-power-navistar-trucks/
Updated: Oct 4, 2021 -  GM’s plan to go all-electric will rely primarily on battery technology, there is growing interest in hydrogen power, especially by established manufacturers like Hyundai and Toyota, as well as start-ups such as Nikola Corp., since fuel-cells offer a number of potential advantage for use in heavy-duty trucks, starting with longer range.
“Hydrogen fuel cells offer great promise for heavy-duty trucks in applications requiring a higher density of energy, fast refueling and additional range,” Navistar Chief Executive Persio Lisboa said this week as he announced plans to bring the new International RH Series of fuel-cell trucks to market during the 2024 model-year.

https://www.hydrogencarsnow.com/index.php/ford-focus-fcv/

https://www.reliableplant.com/Read/4219/ford-rolls-out-plug-in-hybrid-with-hydrogen-fuel-cell

https://www.hydrogencarsnow.com/index.php/ford-super-chief-truck/#:~:text=The%20tri%2Dflex%20fueling%20system,of%20torque.
Ford F-250 Super Chief Tri-Flex Fuel Truck
Since the day Henry Ford introduced the Model A, the world discovered a love affair with the open road. Until now, that open road has meant the mass consumption of fossil fuels.
The Ford Company recently rolled out a prototype truck that provides a reason for a whole new generation to rejoice. The Ford F-250 Super Chief is a prototype that takes the best of nostalgic design features and blends them with the world’s first Tri-Flex capabilities that allow drivers to utilize their fuel of choice.
Ford Super Chief F-250 Tri-Flex Fuel Pickup Truck
Ford designers have introduced a new supercharged v-10 engine with a tri-flex fueling system that allows users to enjoy a choice of three different fuels including gasoline, E85 ethanol or hydrogen. Because the Super Chief offers these choices drivers have the comfort of knowing they can still find fuel as the ethanol and hydrogen infrastructures are developing. In a tri-flex fueling system owners can utilize any or all of these fueling options using the same engine and only the flip of a switch.
The tri-flex fueling system on the Ford F-250 Super Chief allows operators to go 500 miles between total refueling with the supercharger activated only when using the hydrogen fueling system. The hydrogen system also provides 400 lb.-ft. of torque.

https://www.motor1.com/news/523654/h2x-warrego-ford-ranger-fcev/
More than a year ago, H2X announced its aim to put Australia on the map when it comes to producing hydrogen fuel-cell EVs. With a lineup consisting of a van, minibus, tractor, and SUV, H2X wants to put one of these emission-free vehicles on the road by July 2021.
Obviously, that didn't happen because of funding woes but that doesn't mean H2X Australia is out of the picture. Now back as H2X Global with funding coming from Liberty Energy Capital, the firm introduces its first vehicle, the Warrego, based on the T6 Ford Ranger but with no direct harmful effect on the environment.

[viczena]

Ford also rolled out the F-150 Lightning. A BEV and they cannot produce enough for the demand.

The first 15 BEV Semi trucks from Tesla are deliverd this month to Pepsi.

GM sold all their 2022 production of the electric silverado within 10 minutes.

And these are no prototypes to cash in subsidies. These are real sales of existing vehicles, no prototypes, no aim, no plan, no promise, no rejoice, no announcement.

Just Toyota is selling the Mirai. If you want to order, you get the following message: "Out of Stock. But not out of reach.
Right now this vehicle isn't available in your region. Contact your dealer for more information."

Climb out of your red and blue H2 pit. Your news are no news, just worthless squack.

BTW: Storing H2 is very expensive and has a high loss. The production of H2 is also expensive and not very efficient.

[AzCal Retred]

" Storing H2 is very expensive and has a high loss. The production of H2 is also expensive and not very efficient. "

Let's see. Electricity off peak is anywhere from 1/3rd to 1/20th of peak rates. The P2G round robin cycle is presently around 40%. 100MW of 3AM wind power at $30 per MWHr is worth $3000. 40MW at 2PM is worth $300/MWHr, $12,000. 12K > 3K, yes? What option do you think wind & solar producers would choose if they had storage?

H2 stores in oil wells & salt domes just like natural gas. If they were that leaky, there wouldn't be any gas left underground. Using existing storage is cheap. Building special cryogenic or high pressure storage is not.

GM is building H2 fuel cells. I know that's uncomfortable for you, but even they know batteries are too limited for real work.
https://www.gmhydrotec.com/product/public/us/en/hydrotec/Home.html

The only squawk here is from a guy that won't believe that others can do what he cannot. Germany has demo P2G installations at Falkenhagen. IF Batteries had the energy density and longevity of chemical energy it would be a different story, but they don't. For short haul application they work OK, for 300-600 miles, or even 1200 miles, not so much. That's why GM is using fuel cells in long haul trucks. It's faster to "gas up" than recharge a battery. Freight won't wait.
Utilities like batteries because they have a lifespan and need to be replaced at intervals. It's all about the Capital Spend rate of return. Existing piping into an oil well or salt dome lasts  a very long time and is relatively cheap to replace when finally needed.

https://www.reuters.com/markets/commodities/germany-approves-900-mln-euros-green-hydrogen-project-2021-12-23/
https://fuelcellsworks.com/news/hydrogen-levels-in-german-gas-distribution-system-to-be-raised-to-20-percent-for-the-first-time/https://www.powermag.com/windgas-falkenhagen-pioneering-green-gas-production/

[viczena]

When you generate H2 by electrolyse, you lose 50% of the energy at once. Take in some losses of the process, you are at an efficiency of around 42% max. Then comes the losses of pumping and cooling and transporting the H2. Another 10%. And in the car the fuel cell just works with 30% efficiency.

If you store the electricity in large battery banks, you just loose 2%. Another 2% for transport.

Thats the difference. And dont forget that a plant that generates H2 needs constant energy, as it is a continuous process. It does not like On/Off, it is expensive and slow to start the process of generating H2 before it runs. ZigZag electricity from Wind or Solar is exact what these plants dont want.

If you pump H2 in salt or through pipelines, the losses are enormeous. And the H2 destroys the pipeline steel and all seals.

And GM does not use fuel cells. They are just playing with prototypes, gathering subsidies. Like anybody else did until they stopped this foolness.

So just more marketing squack, promises, visions, wannabees. Knowledge is something else than gathering some links with google and painting them blue.

BTW: In your world trucks seem to run 1200 miles per day? The Tesla Semi can drive 500miles. It can charge while load/unload. And after 8 hours drive the drivers have to rest for at least an hour. Enough to recharge the truck with the Megacharger. Using electricity is much cheaper per mile than Gas/diesel. And the lower maintenance costs are a good add on. No need for any costly and inefficient H2.

[Arschloch]

Yesterday, I watched just another amazing "global warming", "covid", "end of the world" scammers and profiteers movie "Don´t look up".

In the future AzCal will be eaten up by a bronteroc.   

Well if you take the shot, you may get a stroke druring the "act" before the bronteroc comes.   

https://brjm.org/2021/12/318-athlete-cardiac-arrests-after-covid-vax/

[Karl Childers]

For the most part I liked that movie, it came from the left a little more than the center but it took a look at how we as humans react to real threats and how quickly we retreat to our political fortresses. I do believe in climate change and a need to change our carbon footprint. To what extent that really affects the climate I don't know because as with all things the numbers from both sides are skewed as each has their own agenda. The middle ground here is that it is not such a bad idea to clean up our environment for the benefit of future generations and not allow the the planet to become an industrial waste land.

The same goes for Covid and the pandemic, it is real, I've watched several friends die from it. It is politicized and the dividing lines have been drawn. There is definitely an agenda attached to it at the moment and lots of disinformation from both sides. Fear is a very powerful tool and very useful in manipulating the populace. George Orwell would find none of this surprising. Those cardiac stats are real and the cases go well beyond those athletes and into the 20 - 30 year old age bracket that have had that reaction to the vaccine, don't be surprised when those verifiable cases are scrubbed from the net or trivialized because they don't fit neatly into  the direction intended. Now break through cases of covid are rising within the ranks of those that have been multiply treated and I'm sure booster #4 is on the horizon. Let's work together to take a closer look at the flawed science or again draw your battle lines, either vax* or no vax, and be sure to hate and blame whoever is on the opposite side. "Don't Look Up" takes a look at this self defeating aspect of the human condition.

*It is also very Orwellian to change the definition of vaccine in order to make the current treatments fit. Why the CDC and big Pharma can't own this and go ahead with acknowledging that it is a treatment casts doubts in some minds and puts more egg on their faces as break through infections rise. The treatment still allows its benefactor to spread the virus but on the other hand has lessened deaths to some degree but as time goes on more risks are coming to light.  Maddening isn't it? There is so much fodder here for a new book if only George were still alive he'd be having a field day. Meanwhile the Omicron variant although more contagious is proving to be less virulent and a possible indicator of the overall burn out of the virus. Along with what that would mean to us in general I would hope  this would lessen the fear factor that is prevalent and allow people to be a more objective and a lot less swayed by those that have an agenda vested in this. I can't help but think of those many old "Twilight Zone"  episodes that Rod Serling and other writers penned with the theme of how easily we can be distracted and manipulated by fear.

[Arschloch]

If nothing this movie shows exactly the characters i would entrust with the decision which air valve cap to put on the wheels of my bike.

[AzCal Retred]

@ #14: " Thats the difference. And dont forget that a plant that generates H2 needs constant energy, as it is a continuous process. It does not like On/Off, it is expensive and slow to start the process of generating H2 before it runs. ZigZag electricity from Wind or Solar is exact what these plants dont want. If you pump H2 in salt or through pipelines, the losses are enormeous. And the H2 destroys the pipeline steel and all seals. "
You don't really know how the Grid operates. You also choose to ignore history & research on H2 blending with natgas & other fuel gasses. "zigzag power" is what P2G mitigates by normalizing load & providing market opportunities. You also don't seem to understand how salt domes are used to store natgas & H2. If H2 ate all seals & containers, how can you explain the existing commercial above ground H2 storage systems with thousands of steel tanks, valves, piping, tubing & seals? These things set out the in the weather for years and don't dissolve. As far as pumping thru pipelines, what exactly do you thing the natgas folks are doing? As far as electrolyzer efficiency, I like actual researched sources, not ax-grinding vitriol. I already told you that round-trip P2G efficiency is about 40%, but as the "fuel is free" for PV & Wind, and we're talking off-peak demand times, so what? Use it somewhere or it's gone. How smart is it really for Germany to depend on Putin & Gazprom? Do you want that worthy to be in control of your economy?

https://www.gazprom.com/projects/germany/

https://www.forbes.com/sites/davekeating/2018/07/19/how-dependent-is-germany-on-russian-gas/?sh=64c41193b489
But in 2015 Germany imported 35% of its gas from Russia. About the same amount, 34%, came from Norway. 29% came from The Netherlands.
But there is reason to believe that the Russian proportion will go up. Germany is the world’s biggest natural gas importer, having to bring 92% of the gas it consumes in from outside the country. The few gas fields that Germany has will likely be completely depleted within the next decade
But looking only at gas gives a distorted impression of Germany’s energy mix, because gas accounts for only around 23% of Germany’s primary energy use. Germany also gets its energy from nuclear, renewables, coal and oil – little of which comes from Russia.
Germany gets its nuclear and coal energy domestically. But Chancellor Angela Merkel has vowed to phase out both of those energy sources within the next decade. The country has an ambitious renewable energy expansion program in place called the Energiewende which is designed to replace those energy sources with solar and wind. But sceptics say it is more likely to be replaced by Russian gas – hence the economic imperative of the new Nord Stream II pipeline which Trump criticised at the NATO summit.

https://www.nrel.gov/docs/fy13osti/51995.pdf

https://www.carboncommentary.com/blog/2017/7/5/hydrogen-made-by-the-electrolysis-of-water-is-now-cost-competitive-and-gives-us-another-building-block-for-the-low-carbon-economy#:~:text=Very%20roughly%2C%20a%20new%20electrolysis,reforming%20is%20around%2065%25%20efficient.
Very roughly, a new electrolysis plant today delivers energy efficiency of around 80%. That is, the energy value of the hydrogen produced is about 80% of the electricity used to split the water molecule. Steam reforming is around 65% efficient.

[viczena]

If you knew just a little bit about H2 storage you would know the problem with H2 and seals. The solution: Take expensive ones , change them often, control every feet of the system with H2 sensors.

And your knowledge about germany is also just superficial google search. We shut down all nuclear energy this year. For example.

Dont always pretend that you know everything, you just cite google links and colour them blue. That gets annoying. It is obviously , that most of the time you know nothing at all about the subject you talk about.

Everybody can do the simple google search by himself. No need for your coloured "help", camouflaged as expertise.

[AzCal Retred]

Oops, your troll is showing...

" Dont always pretend that you know everything "
I think I'm pretty clear about what I know vs. what I think I know. Only one of us here is pretending to know everything and be irritated because people question his pronouncements. I'm all good to debate, learn & maybe arrive at different conclusions. As far as using 'net references, that's a rapid way to qualify & illustrate the point you are trying to make. Colors make it clearer to differentiate my speculation from other peoples speculation. Pretty standard practice, but we've been over that ground before.

Everyone knows something, and I stand amazed by your study of EFI, you are undeniably very good at it. I spent many years in the power biz so that's why I know something about that. Again, everyone knows something, we need to utilize each others strengths to puzzle through complex issues, maybe even learning something along the way.

[viczena]

It seems you think too often that you know. And instead just recite google links.

And pretending (I spent many years in the power biz) makes your arguments just more helpless. What have you done ? Wiped the floor in a coalmine?

You never said that everything blue is just personal speculation. Not facts or reality. Put a reminder with this simple fact under every one of your posts, so no one will be confused.

[Arschloch]

Got to think of the Swedtards, they seem to know the amount of snowflakes that come down in Germany, possibly how much i "owe" them. There probably is just one language they understand. 

[AzCal Retred]

@ #21: You are a riot! We are down to the "No - You're a big dumbhead" stage. You don't know Jack about me, what I've done, where I've been. And it's pointless to tell you anything as you already know all there is to know. A mind like a steel trap - rusted shut.

" You never said that everything blue is just personal speculation. Not facts or reality. Put a reminder with this simple fact under every one of your posts, so no one will be confused. " That's pretty funny itself. I said that "Colors make it clearer to differentiate my speculation from other peoples speculation". By your illiterate logic all my writing would have to be blue. You are really able to wander quite far afield to get meanings twisted enough to fit your assumptions. On this side of the pond you'd make a great 70% GOP voter.

If you actually believe that every word out of your mouth is the sole, unvarnished, immutable truth, that's a personal delusion. Blue is (yet again, sigh...) a literary device to differentiate & attribute quotes. What I say is my opinion, formed from the best info I presently have and any experience I have. Being arrogant, belligerent & combative doesn't add any credibility, it just alienates people. Unlike you, I don't expect anyone to take what I say without verification. That's the real point of references. I find that generally if you are making a point and have some supporting information, the idea gets across better. I don't reload ammunition or repair important hardware new to me without checking a few different references. Trust but Verify...that will take you a long ways.

[viczena]

Your verification are outdated goggle posts. You dont even know that Hyundai stopped their H2 engagement. You want to teach me what is going on in germany with age old links. Not even knowing the simplest facts. Merkel and her party are no longer in power. For example. And there is much more you just dont seem to know or understand.

And you yourself suggested that everything in blue is just personal speculation. It really seems so.

[Arschloch]

Trust but Verify...that will take you a long ways.

As for me, the verification is my wallet. If someone were  to walk into my pub orders s beer, drinks it and than claims the glas was dirty which is why he expects it for free than he will be thrown out sooner or later. If he comes with a gang of hells angles and threatens the employees the bar closes or the personal walks out.

It's pretty meaninless to fight over an hypothetical H2 infrastructure. Who will reglement it and who will foot the bill? Certainly not me.

[richard211]

'' A mind like a steel trap - rusted shut. ''

I have been quietly reading through the topic, but I could not help but burst out laughing. This is pure gold.

[viczena]

It's pretty meaninless to fight over an hypothetical H2 infrastructure. Who will reglement it and who will foot the bill? Certainly not me.

Sounds good. But in germany for example there is another game. The legislation throws money into alternative energies like there is no tomorrow. They lost (overslept) the battle over BEV, so they look for the next field of opportunities: H2. We burry several billions per year for this dead horse. And we have to pay for it. For example with the highest electricity prices in the world (still rising), though everybody talks about free and surplus energy from wind and solar. Our net is on the ridge of collapsing. Alternative energy is not the solution, it is the cause of the problem.
France gets 92% of ther electric power from nuclear. There the price of electricity is just half of that in germany.

[Willie]

Since it is highly likely that we here are all Royal Enfield owners, it follows that we are by definition Intelligent, Attractive, Witty, Physically Fit, Friendly, and Courteous.  Therefore, I find it odd that an innocuous topic such as this involving vehicular propulsion and fueling could possibly devolve into a rather embarrassing diatribe of insults, name-calling, and haranguing arguments.  One hopes that prospective RE owners would not tune-in and judge our social, emotional and riding behaviors accordingly.

Although rare these days, it is possible to disagree on any given subject that is not life and death in an agreeable, informative, and tolerant way.  Civil and polite discourse is an indicator of empathy and erudition.  It is just as easy to be nice as it is to be nasty. 

Nice is nicer.  And RE owners are nothing else if not nice!  Right?

[Karl Childers]

Friday night is bean burrito night at casa Childers, not long after we have a surplus of methane gas but have yet to harness it in any useful way.

[AzCal Retred]

@ #28: +1! 

[zimmemr]

Since it is highly likely that we here are all Royal Enfield owners, it follows that we are by definition Intelligent, Attractive, Witty, Physically Fit, Friendly, and Courteous.  Therefore, I find it odd that an innocuous topic such as this involving vehicular propulsion and fueling could possibly devolve into a rather embarrassing diatribe of insults, name-calling, and haranguing arguments.  One hopes that prospective RE owners would not tune-in and judge our social, emotional and riding behaviors accordingly.

Although rare these days, it is possible to disagree on any given subject that is not life and death in an agreeable, informative, and tolerant way.  Civil and polite discourse is an indicator of empathy and erudition.  It is just as easy to be nice as it is to be nasty. 

Nice is nicer.  And RE owners are nothing else if not nice!  Right?

Excellent points.  Everyone here is capable of making a good and civil argument without resorting to schoolyard insults.

[richard211]

Friday night is bean burrito night at casa Childers, not long after we have a surplus of methane gas but have yet to harness it in any useful way.

You guys are killings me today, I haven't laughed a lot like this in a while.

[mrunderhill1975a]

I must say that I have been learning things following what you all have to say.  I hope I live long enough to see which fuel wins out.  Sort of like Edison light company vs Westinghouse.

[Arschloch]

I must say that I have been learning things following what you all have to say.  I hope I live long enough to see which fuel wins out.  Sort of like Edison light company vs Westinghouse.

That depends solely on future tech. Provided someone invents the toilet that pays a royalty and is capable to accurately measure the inputs i would say there is no way h2 can surpass methan.

[AzCal Retred]

Derottone - funny you should ask...here's a toilet that measures inputs & more... 

https://www.theverge.com/2020/4/9/21215425/smart-toilet-disease-detection-analprint

[Arschloch]

Derottone - funny you should ask...here's a toilet that measures inputs & more... 

https://www.theverge.com/2020/4/9/21215425/smart-toilet-disease-detection-analprint

...they are going to need those toilets in the EV battery plants while waiting for the customers.

[Richard230]

I heard a news report this morning that in Europe electric vehicles are now outselling diesel cars each year and have now reached 20% of the new car market. ICE vehicles still have 40% of new car sales.

[Arschloch]

I heard a news report this morning that in Europe electric vehicles are now outselling diesel cars each year and have now reached 20% of the new car market. ICE vehicles still have 40% of new car sales.

If the overall vehicle sales dropped by 90% which is not unlikely I´m inclined to believe it.