Author Topic: Meters and Scopes for Moto work  (Read 2378 times)

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axman88

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on: July 09, 2020, 07:36:22 pm
I've got a lot of tools, including a variety of test lights and meters, but one area my collection was deficient in, was equipment suitable for measuring and testing modern EFI systems.

So recently, I added a Hantek 1008C, which is a modestly priced USB Oscilloscope. 
     http://hantek.com.cn/products/detail/13170

For around $80, I received a slightly used 8 channel O-scope with modest specs.  It proved very easy to download and install the software on an old Win 7 mini-desktop that I salvaged from the computer graveyard, and I added a $10 VGA monitor from a junk store.  Because all the processing is done in the 1008C, a high performing computer isn't needed, it's basically there for the display and to eliminate all the switches and buttons that add cost to a conventional O-Scope.  My Hantek came with various probes, including a capacitive probe that clamps direct to a high tension spark cable.  What it didn't have was current probe, that lets you measure current without interposing an inline resistance to measure voltage across.

Hantek sells this current probe, and it has good reviews for a $58 item:
             http://hantek.com.cn/products/detail/77

This got me to thinking about alternatives for a DC current probe.  I have a few "Clamp meters", that I use for working on house wiring and machines at work, but these are only for AC.  Where an AC current meter can get away with a simple ferrite ring, measuring DC current requires Hall effect sensors and buffer circuits.  Since I have no straightforward and easy way of measuring DC current, especially large ( >10 A) DC currents, I decided I should add a handheld meter that was capable of this task.

Be careful if you decide to shop for one of these DC current clamp meters, most have siblings that look identical, but without the Hall Effect sensor, which renders them cheaper, but able to measure only AC current with the clamp.  But, because they can still measure DC voltage, the ad copy can be misleading.  Shop carefully!

The Habotest HT-206D is about the cheapest Hall effect Clamp meter that I found, that inspired some amount of trust.
      http://www.habo-test.com/sale-11356939-ht206d-ac-dc-digital-clamp-meter-current-voltage-resistance-continuity-ncv.html

This gadget will measure up to 600A of AC or DC current and do quite a few other tricks besides, and can be purchased for less than $40. 

But for just a few dollars more, I found various meters made by UNI-T.  Various of these meters have been reviewed by parties online, including electrical engineering types, and they all seem to be saying good things about the UNI-T meters.

The UT 204+ can measure up to 600A AC or DC and can also measure frequency and temperature.  It comes with a thermocouple capable of measuring up to 1000 deg C.
         https://www.uni-trend.com/html/product/NewProducts/UT200_NEW/UT204+.html

600 A DC means one could directly measure current draw of a full sized car or truck starter.  For motorcycle work, a considerably lower max. value should be fine, and a meter with a smaller physical size is more likely to be in my pack when I'm far from home.

I think I'm going with this UNI-T UT 210D.
         https://www.uni-trend.com/html/product/General_Meters/digitalclampmeters/UT210_Series/UT210D.html

600V DC or AC measurement, 200A DC or AC, Also measures Resistance, Temperature, and Frequency and even does Non-Contact AC voltage detection.  Uses two AAA batteries instead of a 9V, and fits into my size XL palm.  Should be a nice piece of kit!

What do you guys think?  What do you use for diagnosing your moto electronics?


Toni59

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Reply #1 on: August 31, 2020, 06:58:55 pm
I am a Newbie in this matter but interested in what you could see or analyze with your Hantek 1008 C.

For what do you need this equipment?

Thanks for explanation.

Regards
Toni


axman88

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Reply #2 on: September 01, 2020, 04:30:47 pm
With the ever increasing complexity of automotive control systems, the ability to "see" the signals from various electrical and electronic components is a useful, and sometimes essential ability.  Ahough there are often other ways of testing systems and components, using an oscilloscope can get the essential information more specifically and more quickly, provided the user has the knowledge to use it.

For example:
     -  Test the relative compression of ALL cylinders of a multi-cylinder engine at the same time, by monitoring the current of the starter motor referenced.  See immediately which cylinder(s) are higher or lower.
     -  Test the entire ignition system by monitoring the high energy pulse.  See anomalies that indicate problems with coil, spark plug, high tension leads, etc.
     -  Test sensors and actuators, like Throttle position sensor.  Intermittent signal issues that may be very difficult to detect with a voltmeter, are much easier to see with a oscilloscope.

For sensors and devices that use high speed, high frequency, or short duration waveforms, the oscilloscope becomes even more important.
      -  The period that a fuel injector is open is a matter of milliseconds.  This just can't be measured with a voltmeter.  With an oscilloscope, an injector can be tested for correct operating parameters without removing it from the vehicle.  Common problems, like sticking can be "seen" via the waveform.
      -   With a multi-channel scope the signal from one device can be superimposed over another, so for example, one can see how the ignition timing and injector pulse width may be varying based on the signal from the crankshaft sensor, a useful diagnostic technique.

These examples are just the tip of the iceberg.

The Hantek 1008 is tailored to automotive use, and includes in its software, setup and testing information to allow a less experienced user to get useful results.  Most test setups include a reference waveform that can be compared to the user's results to guide diagnosis.  It's not the highest specification device, nor the most robust, but its low price and the helpful automotive related setups make it quite attractive to a lot of amateur and professional users.


Toni59

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Reply #3 on: September 01, 2020, 07:00:15 pm
@axman88:

Thanks for the interesting insight

That sounds very exciting :-)

But if you see the waveform, how do you know it is right or wrong - or at least within it‘s intended limits?

I guess there is no good/bad picture provided by the manufacturer, am I right?

Regards

Toni


mrunderhill1975a

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Reply #4 on: September 03, 2020, 10:18:24 pm
@Axmann88,
I find your descriptions very interesting.  I have watched a few Tube vids from South Main Auto, and Scanner Danner using various tools.  Some of it I understand, most not.  If you have a chance to use your new tools, please make a photo or video record along with a description of tool use.  Working on a relatively simple RE motorcycle using these tools would be a great way to understand what these tools do.


zimmemr

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Reply #5 on: December 23, 2020, 09:05:24 pm
 I'm a retired truck/heavy equipment mechanic that worked for one of the countries largest electric utilities. I always liked Fluke, although that UNI -T meter looks pretty interesting. To be in honest in our shop, where cost was no object most of our diagnostic work was performed using either a commercially available scan tool, OTC, Snap-on etc, basically we'd buy a few dozen of them from whoever gave us the best deal and distribute one to every garage. Big trucks don't use OBD11, they use a different protocol all together so we'd use a lap top equipped with OEM software to read codes, program ECU's and so forth for those. FWIW few of the companies even included a compression test anymore. If you have a dead hole and it's not electronic, you're going in deep anyway, and the factories want to use an old fashioned mechanical compression tester, at least IHC does. That may have changed sine I retired though.

For home use I don't think you need to go to crazy, I've got a couple of different scan tools for my Jeeps, mostly so I can clear codes and diagnose common problems. For the bike I just use a nice digital VOM. In my experience most motorcycle problems aren't subtle enough to require expensive or very sophisticated diagnostic equipment, at least not for most repairs, though a code reader would be handy to have, but I applaud anyone that wants to take it to the next level.


viczena

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Reply #6 on: January 30, 2021, 02:11:45 pm
For modern motorcycle maintenance you should have 3 devices
1. An OBD scanner. To read out and cancel error codes. Sometimes it allows you to inspect the state of the sensors. The more expensive ones allow you to reset and bleed the ABS.
https://www.g-homeserver.com/forum/royal-enfield-500-trials/381-obd-diagnoseger-t-fehlercodes
2. A good multimeter. Voltage and resistance are the most used areas. Have several sets of cables with different clamps/pliers.
3. An Ammeter with mAmp range. The type with a plier. So you can follow current leaks which will drain your battery.
https://www.amazon.de/gp/product/B00RGL98E0/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1

I have never used an Oszilliscope on the bike. Though I have several (bikes and oszis). If you really want/need to use an O-Scope on the EFI, you would also need a patch panel, which is connected between the EFi and the connector. It presents all line with an open connector, so you can plug your O-Scope lines onto them.

These patch panels are expensive, only usable for one type of EFi and not easy to get.
« Last Edit: January 30, 2021, 02:28:22 pm by viczena »
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axman88

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Reply #7 on: January 30, 2021, 06:28:51 pm
For modern motorcycle maintenance you should have 3 devices
1. An OBD scanner. To read out and cancel error codes.
I don't think OBDII scanners are compatible with the Keihin ECU used on the UCE machines.  Even if you found or made an adaptor to convert the K-line connector to a 16 pin connector, you will find that the data buss isn't using any standard OBD2 protocol.  Perhaps the Bosch ECUs are more compliant?

2. A good multimeter. Voltage and resistance are the most used areas. Have several sets of cables with different clamps/pliers.
3. An Ammeter with mAmp range. The type with a plier. So you can follow current leaks which will drain your battery.
https://www.amazon.de/gp/product/B00RGL98E0/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1
I think that the UNI-T UT 210-D that I recommended  https://www.uni-trend.com/html/product/General_Meters/digitalclampmeters/UT210_Series/UT210D.html  does all these jobs admirably.  It has a clamp meter that measures up to 200A using the clamp, yet has quite good resolution through the wire leads.  It is about the same physical size as the Benning you recommended, but only 1/10 of the cost.

I have never used an Oszilliscope on the bike. Though I have several (bikes and oszis). If you really want/need to use an O-Scope on the EFI, you would also need a patch panel, which is connected between the EFi and the connector. It presents all line with an open connector, so you can plug your O-Scope lines onto them.

These patch panels are expensive, only usable for one type of EFi and not easy to get.

Old school methods still work, for the most part, especially on old school machines, but I think that the O-scope lets you find issues faster and see subtleties you might miss otherwise.  For example, a voltmeter is useless in seeing  the very short duration signals that drive a fuel injector,  so you are stuck with parts swapping, while an O-scope lets you see exactly what the solenoid is doing during it's 4 milliseconds of on time.  Similarly, there is a lot that can be diagnosed about an engine by seeing the shape of the spark discharge pulse, and comparing one cylinder to another, which is not possible using the tools you listed.  This is why O-scopes started appearing in mechanics shops well before EFI was in common use.  A multi-trace scope, like the Hantek I mentioned, also lets you compare inputs with outputs, for example, monitoring an injector pulse output based on a TPS or EOT input.

I don't need a patch panel.  Every sensor and every actuator has it's own connector, to allow replacement, and that's where I prefer to clip in, rather than at the ECU.

I use:
- An inductive pickup for the spark plugs. ( $15) https://www.ebay.com/itm/HT25-HANTEK-Secondary-Ignition-Capacitive-Auto-Pickup-Probe-USA-SELLER-/363103219837?hash=item548aa3707d, a
- A amp/volt conversion clamp for diagnosing high current issues.  ($35)  https://www.ebay.com/itm/allsun-400A-DC-AC-rms-Current-Probe-Handheld-AC-DC-Clamp-Meter-50Hz-60Hz-CAT-III/254133930169
- A cheap set of probes to backprobe the connectors of sensors and actuators.  ($7)  https://www.ebay.com/itm/Hantek-HT307-Acupuncture-Back-Test-Probe-Pins-Screw-Auto-Diagnostic-Test-5-color/113328425261   
-  Alternately, this type of insulation piercing clip can be used anywhere ($19)  https://www.ebay.com/itm/Test-clip-set-insulation-piercing-red-black-banana-alligator-clip-test-leads/291455761952

Another neat feature of the Hantek, and many digital O-scopes, is the ability to save and store waveforms.  One can sample the signals of various components when the machine is running great, and store them for retrieval and comparison at a later date, when something has gone amiss.

Certainly people can ride and repair their machines without using the latest tools, but with O-scopes being available quite inexpensively now, ( I got my Hantek for $80, which is about the cost of a RE fuel injector) one might pay for the tool in just one machine fixed without the need to purchase and swap out components.


viczena

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Reply #8 on: January 30, 2021, 06:39:18 pm
1. In my link you will wind a cheap OBD Scanner for the UCE Bikes
2. If you plug off the sensors, you cannot measure correctly. You end up with patch cables or even holding the probe by hand. That does not give you any decent measurement. This kind of measurements only make sense if you do them in a running environment.
An it is not a problem of the O-scope.

Inductive Pickup for Spark plugs ? Useless. You need a resistor device to simulate the plug and then you can measure your coil under load.
High amp current? Quite useless. The starter motor either turns or it doesnt.
Cheap set of probes? Speaks for itself
Insulation piercing clips? Speaks for itself.


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axman88

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Reply #9 on: January 30, 2021, 09:25:25 pm
1. In my link you will wind a cheap OBD Scanner for the UCE Bikes
2. If you plug off the sensors, you cannot measure correctly. You end up with patch cables or even holding the probe by hand. That does not give you any decent measurement. This kind of measurements only make sense if you do them in a running environment.
An it is not a problem of the O-scope.

Inductive Pickup for Spark plugs ? Useless. You need a resistor device to simulate the plug and then you can measure your coil under load.
High amp current? Quite useless. The starter motor either turns or it doesnt.
Cheap set of probes? Speaks for itself
Insulation piercing clips? Speaks for itself.
My machine is a 2012, the OBD reading device you linked to does look useful for 2018 and later though.  Thanks for posting that link.  I could see this device being faster for reading codes than counting MIL blinks.  I'd be happier if there was a device available that would translate whatever protocol is used for Buss communication to standard OBDII protocol, so I could hook up my existing OBDII reader, rather than collect yet another reader that can only be used on a single machine.

Right, sorry, I meant a CAPACITIVE pickup for clipping to the spark plug high tension wire, not inductive.  It does seem to work adequately.

I've encountered situations where a starter motor turns, but due to increased resistance in the circuit, draws battery voltage down to a point where there's not enough energy to provide a good spark.   The starter motor turns, but the engine won't start.  As you suggest, diagnosing this fault wouldn't require a clamp probe and it's not very useful for most motorcycle work, although possibly would be helpful when working with PWM or brushless DC motors?   I bought mine because I also occasionally repair industrial equipment for my employer and it can also be attached to a VOM to read higher DC current than I had the ability to read with my UT 210-D clamp meter.

Back probing works fine, and lots of mechanics do this in automotive work.  A back probe with a little electrical tape to secure it seems to work well, and is secure enough for my purposes.  The Hantek is only a 2.4MSa/sec scope, and only capable of 250Khz (optimistic) and downward.  The leads provided with the Hantek are quite crude, just a couple of alligator clip leads terminated with a BNC connector:  https://www.ebay.com/itm/1Pc-BNC-Male-Q9-to-Dual-Alligator-Clip-Oscilloscope-Test-Probe-Cable-New-US-Ship/173325524904
If you are thinking good practice for MHz signals is required for auto work, this doesn't seem to be the case.   Adding capacitance to the lead and dropping 10 milliseconds of signal here and there, really doesn't change the situation, in my opinion.  We aren't talking about signals in the MHz range or CAN logic signals.  The automotive type O-scope is admittedly more useful for "shape of the waveform" or timing diagnosis, vs accurate level measurements.  One would still want a decently accurate voltmeter.

I've never heard of an auto mechanic insisting that a breakout box be used.  Perhaps these are used by engineers developing the ECUs?  Auto mechanics demonstrating diagnostic techniques on automobiles in videos and so forth, all seem to use back probing. 

What does "insulation piercing" say, other than it pierces the insulation to contact the wire?

If you don't accept back probing, or insulation piercing, how do you use a your voltmeter?

You said you have never tried using an O-Scope on a motorcycle, yet you dismiss its usefulness.  It's a tool that thousands of mechanics do find useful, and companies like Hantek and Pico offer a full line of products for.


viczena

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Reply #10 on: January 30, 2021, 09:41:17 pm
Voltage measurements are mostly at open connectors to test, if the right voltage arrives.
One exception is TPS voltage. You get contact by using needle connectors from behind the connector.
You also use a voltmeter at the battery to measure how far down the voltage breaks when you start. It is a good indicator of your battery health.
I use insulation piercing probes only, when nothing else ist possible.
A patch pad is standard equipment for certified dealer workshops. Not for Royal Enfield, but for example for Harley. The whole electric repair manual is based on this patch panel. With a patch panel you can make several measurements at once. Observe how the sensors react. If you have a multichannel O-Scope, it is easy to watch. But if you got an elaborated OBD Scanner, you can watch without any hassle. With a user friendly interface. And even record while you drive.

If you have a 6-connector Sumitomo plug nearby your EFI, the OBD Reader should work. It is the same EFI. With the same communication protocol. The Enfield EFi is a quite simple design.
« Last Edit: January 30, 2021, 10:01:38 pm by viczena »
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zimmemr

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Reply #11 on: January 30, 2021, 11:51:34 pm
Deleted by author
« Last Edit: January 31, 2021, 12:35:35 am by zimmemr »


Bilgemaster

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Reply #12 on: January 31, 2021, 05:50:08 am
Sometimes I just stare at my Dad's old '50s or '60s "Dwell Meter" in the garage and ponder just what it might have been used for. Sure, I could just Google it, I suppose. But then where's the fun in that? For surely I dwell in the house of The Lord! Or my points are oily or I have split ends or visible panty lines, or something...As a dumbass who understands little of that meter or this thread the possibilities are endless!
So badass my Enfield's actually illegal  in India.

(Legal enough to pass muster if they don't look too closely in Woodbridge, Virginia, where the buses don't run at night, holidays or weekends and I'm a contender for 'Village Idiot')


tooseevee

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Reply #13 on: January 31, 2021, 12:01:49 pm
Sometimes I just stare at my Dad's old '50s or '60s "Dwell Meter" in the garage and ponder just what it might have been used for. Sure, I could just Google it, I suppose. But then where's the fun in that? For surely I dwell in the house of The Lord! Or my points are oily or I have split ends or visible panty lines, or something...As a dumbass who understands little of that meter or this thread the possibilities are endless!

         I think you probably know this already, but dwell is pretty simple really. It's just the time that the points allow for the coil to be recharged after firing the plug(s).
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zimmemr

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Reply #14 on: January 31, 2021, 12:25:25 pm
Sometimes I just stare at my Dad's old '50s or '60s "Dwell Meter" in the garage and ponder just what it might have been used for. Sure, I could just Google it, I suppose. But then where's the fun in that? For surely I dwell in the house of The Lord! Or my points are oily or I have split ends or visible panty lines, or something...As a dumbass who understands little of that meter or this thread the possibilities are endless!

Just before I retired I asked a mechanic who'd worked for me for maybe 15 years, to grab something out of my tool box, he did, but also came back with my Tach/Dwell meter wearing a puzzled look on his face. He asked me what the odd meter he'd found in there was used for as he'd never seen one. FYI Our shop was primarily a diesel/heavy equipment repair facility.

 I explained what the Dwell meter did, and knowing he'd graduated from our local tech schools automotive program (4 years work/study) asked him if they hadn't covered dwell and point gap in class. He looked at me with another puzzled look and said "I graduated in 1986, we were never taught anything about points" He did know how to set points, but only from working on older lawn mowers and such. I knew right then and there it was time to start thinking about retiring.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2021, 12:29:58 pm by zimmemr »


zimmemr

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Reply #15 on: January 31, 2021, 07:46:14 pm
My machine is a 2012, the OBD reading device you linked to does look useful for 2018 and later though.  Thanks for posting that link.  I could see this device being faster for reading codes than counting MIL blinks.  I'd be happier if there was a device available that would translate whatever protocol is used for Buss communication to standard OBDII protocol, so I could hook up my existing OBDII reader, rather than collect yet another reader that can only be used on a single machine.

Right, sorry, I meant a CAPACITIVE pickup for clipping to the spark plug high tension wire, not inductive.  It does seem to work adequately.

I've encountered situations where a starter motor turns, but due to increased resistance in the circuit, draws battery voltage down to a point where there's not enough energy to provide a good spark.   The starter motor turns, but the engine won't start.  As you suggest, diagnosing this fault wouldn't require a clamp probe and it's not very useful for most motorcycle work, although possibly would be helpful when working with PWM or brushless DC motors?   I bought mine because I also occasionally repair industrial equipment for my employer and it can also be attached to a VOM to read higher DC current than I had the ability to read with my UT 210-D clamp meter.

Back probing works fine, and lots of mechanics do this in automotive work.  A back probe with a little electrical tape to secure it seems to work well, and is secure enough for my purposes.  The Hantek is only a 2.4MSa/sec scope, and only capable of 250Khz (optimistic) and downward.  The leads provided with the Hantek are quite crude, just a couple of alligator clip leads terminated with a BNC connector:  https://www.ebay.com/itm/1Pc-BNC-Male-Q9-to-Dual-Alligator-Clip-Oscilloscope-Test-Probe-Cable-New-US-Ship/173325524904
If you are thinking good practice for MHz signals is required for auto work, this doesn't seem to be the case.   Adding capacitance to the lead and dropping 10 milliseconds of signal here and there, really doesn't change the situation, in my opinion.  We aren't talking about signals in the MHz range or CAN logic signals.  The automotive type O-scope is admittedly more useful for "shape of the waveform" or timing diagnosis, vs accurate level measurements.  One would still want a decently accurate voltmeter.

I've never heard of an auto mechanic insisting that a breakout box be used.  Perhaps these are used by engineers developing the ECUs?  Auto mechanics demonstrating diagnostic techniques on automobiles in videos and so forth, all seem to use back probing. 

What does "insulation piercing" say, other than it pierces the insulation to contact the wire?

If you don't accept back probing, or insulation piercing, how do you use a your voltmeter?

You said you have never tried using an O-Scope on a motorcycle, yet you dismiss its usefulness.  It's a tool that thousands of mechanics do find useful, and companies like Hantek and Pico offer a full line of products for.

My only comment here is that I can tell you from experience that breakout boxes are handy things to have when tracing circuits on things like the bucket trucks used for electrical utility work, especially when they use air operated electric over hydraulic systems for some of the bucket functions. Common practice is to connect the bucket to the OEM truck harness via a dedicated plug, the bucket normally has an engine speed control, an engine stop/start switch and a "dump" system to kill the hydraulics and those all work through the ECU, and are connected with about 40 feet of wire. The other issue is that many OEMs use wires that are numbered but not colored. For example Navistar uses a lot of all black wires or all purple. So tracing the circuit turns into a real pain in the ass if you try to do it visually.

The other instance when a breakout box box comes in handy for truck work is in isolating electrical failures, especially in the injection circuit where you have your injectors and certain sensors located under the valve cover. Without a breakout box you have to pull the valve cover, which can take an hour or two or sometimes more to access the connectors. Usually once it throws any kind of injection or low oil pressure code, HEUI systems use oil pressure to fire the injectors, you know you're going in there anyway, but the breakout box gives some idea of what you're looking for. That being said our shop didn't have one, we use to borrow it from the dealer.  :)


axman88

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Reply #16 on: January 31, 2021, 09:49:28 pm
If you have a 6-connector Sumitomo plug nearby your EFI, the OBD Reader should work. It is the same EFI. With the same communication protocol. The Enfield EFi is a quite simple design.
When I asked the seller of the OBD reader you linked to, "Can this scanner tool be made to work with a 2012 Classic 500 with a Keihin ECU?", he responded,  "Sorry, only compatible with euro 4 compatible bikes 2017 onwards."

So, although my 2012 is equipped with a 6 pin connector, 3 pins of which are wired, It appears that RE changed something about the communications protocol when they started making the BS4 /Euro4 machines.  I don't believe that the Euro4 500 UCEs were ever exported to the USA.  Because we were rolling back environmental controls at the time, they were not required to meet our standards.  My understanding is that the US only received the equivalent of Euro3 export bikes, with no manifold air temp sensor and other differences in the electronics / wiring.

What is different about the comm. protocol, I don't know, and I haven't tried hooking up a scanner via a 6 to 16 adaptor.  There was considerable interest in this back in 2010 to 2014, and the general consensus was that OBD2 scanners and readers, etc did NOT work.  Those who tried, failed, so I didn't personally pursue this.  Interest has understandably died down since then, folks have accepted the blinky light diagnostics, and the 500 has been basically dropped from the RE line.

One thing that makes the issue confusing when discussed here in the international forum, is that India domestic, Euro and US bikes are all slightly different, with different ECU numbers, although all are variations of the same Keihin box.  Most of the experimentation seems to be happening in India, and documented in U-Tube videos, which is great, except they are in Hindi language and the subtitles seem to not work.

Here's what little I have found out about OBDII communications with UCE 500 machines.
My 2012 C5 (Euro3) has a three wire "DOL" connector, with black (ground), red/white (+12V), and gray (data).  According to the Haynes schematic for pre Euro4, this gray wire connects to pin 10 of the ECU.  Singh5 calls pin 10 the "KLine" pin.  https://youtu.be/ZpPQzrMPK1U?t=101   I haven't found any reports of Euro3 ECUs working with OBD2 scanners.

The schematic for Euro4 C5 machines again shows 3 wires going to the "DOL" connector, but the wire colors are different, we see Black (ground), Orange (+12V), and Purple/ Blue (data).  The Haynes schematic for Euro4 machines shows the P/BL data wire as being routed to pin 30 of the ECU rather than pin 10.  Although I haven't seen a documented report, there is some evidence to suggest that Euro4 UCE machines can work with some OBD2 readers.

I'm aware that there exists 2 standard protocols that could conceivably be implemented with a single data pin.  SAE J1850 VPW, which is used by Ford, and ISO 9141-2: used on Asian, Chrysler, and European cars.  ISO 9141-2 would require some non-standard method to wake up the ECU.   https://obdstation.com/obd2-protocols/

It seems that RE changed the system again, when the BS6 were released.  Now it appears that there are 4 wires, Black (ground), Brown (+12V), Purple (CAN high), Yellow/Red (CAN low).  These BS6 bikes definitely seem to
support some OBD2 readers.   https://youtu.be/4Bf_n7YFwgo?t=75
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9_BrYxrbWng

This $20 Bluetooth scanner seems popular.  https://www.amazon.com/KOBRA-Wireless-OBD-Scanner-Connects/dp/B01C3HAHCS/ref=asc_df_B01C3HAHCS

You do seem well versed in this technology, certainly more than myself.  I only have my 2012, US export machine to play with.  I'm sure that others, besides myself here in the forum would be interested in having the ability to use an OBD2 reader on their older UCE machine, if you can help us figure this puzzle out.


viczena

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Reply #17 on: January 31, 2021, 10:55:18 pm
Nope, they did not change anything. Until now every Enfield has the same K-Line protocol.

There is a speciality in Euro 4 Models, as they also have the ABS System in the K-Line. Therefore in these Bikes the K-Line does not end in PIN10 of the ECu, but in PIN30. Looks like a different version of the ECU.

What I know for shure that the protocols and connectors for B5, C5, 535 GT & HIMALAYAN are equal.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2021, 11:59:01 pm by viczena »
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viczena

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Reply #18 on: February 01, 2021, 01:20:14 am
Correction: Every single cylinder Enfield has the same K-Line connection.
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axman88

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Reply #19 on: February 01, 2021, 02:01:41 am
Every single cylinder Enfield has the same K-Line connection.
Thanks for providing insight into this.

The BS6 bikes in the videos I linked to, which look to be UCE, they are saying in those videos that those are CAN Buss and showing four wires.  I would have thought that a two wire CAN buss would inherently be a different protocol than a single wire K-Line?  But, you say it's all the same protocol?  What comm protocol is Royal Enfield using on the one wire, K-Line machines?

This topic has been discussed here on the forum a few times.  Some guys claimed to have tried this or that reader, but nobody said they were able to get it to work.
https://forum.classicmotorworks.com/index.php?topic=17961.0
https://forum.classicmotorworks.com/index.php?topic=11421.0
https://forum.classicmotorworks.com/index.php?topic=20229.0

I'm kind of leery of purchasing a reader that the seller has already told me will not work.  Why do you think he's saying it won't work, if you say that you have successfully used that device?

I guess I don't mind jumpering from the 6 pin connector to a 16 pin OBD2 connector and trying a code reader that I already have.  Can you advise me on which pin numbers on the OBD2 connector I should connect my GND, 12V+ and K-line DATA to?


viczena

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Reply #20 on: February 01, 2021, 08:58:20 am
I own the original scan tool for RE dealers. And tried other (cheaper) alternatives.

https://www.g-homeserver.com/forum/royal-enfield-500-trials/381-obd-diagnoseger%C3%A4t-fehlercodes

From what i conclude by reading the 650 wiring map, these bikes seem to have a CAN 4-wire connection. They also have 2 new DTC Codes: CAN_BUSOFF and CAN_GENERIC.
« Last Edit: February 01, 2021, 09:39:55 am by viczena »
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zimmemr

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Reply #21 on: February 01, 2021, 02:06:28 pm
I own the original scan tool for RE dealers. And tried other (cheaper) alternatives.

https://www.g-homeserver.com/forum/royal-enfield-500-trials/381-obd-diagnoseger%C3%A4t-fehlercodes

From what i conclude by reading the 650 wiring map, these bikes seem to have a CAN 4-wire connection. They also have 2 new DTC Codes: CAN_BUSOFF and CAN_GENERIC.

Did you purchase your OEM scan tool through a dealer or find one through some other source? If it was through a dealer in the US or otherwise. Sorry if this is redundant, but when I go to your links I can't always get the translator to work.


viczena

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Reply #22 on: February 01, 2021, 02:24:42 pm
I ordered it from my dealer. You can also get it from Hitchcocks.
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zimmemr

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Reply #23 on: February 01, 2021, 03:30:41 pm
I ordered it from my dealer. You can also get it from Hitchcocks.
[/quote

Thanks, we've got a new RE dealer in town, in an unintended homage to the past the local Indian shop has taken them on. I'm going to wait until he's got himself settled in, and see if he bought one as part of his new dealer tool kit before I spend the dough on a tool that hopefully I'll rarely if ever use. Was your dealer in the US?


axman88

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Reply #24 on: February 02, 2021, 06:20:07 am
I own the original scan tool for RE dealers. And tried other (cheaper) alternatives.

https://www.g-homeserver.com/forum/royal-enfield-500-trials/381-obd-diagnoseger%C3%A4t-fehlercodes

From what i conclude by reading the 650 wiring map, these bikes seem to have a CAN 4-wire connection. They also have 2 new DTC Codes: CAN_BUSOFF and CAN_GENERIC.
Thanks for posting the link to your posts discussing the K-Line connector and OBD2 diagnostics.   The pinout of the K-line connector is very helpful.   I see that you said
"The connector itself is a 6-pin Sumitomo HT 090.

The Trials only occupied the K-Line connection. And no CAN bus. K-Line is a serial protocol with 10400 baud and can be read out via a serial interface.

So it shouldn't be difficult to find a device or software that reads the vehicle's EFI. But surprisingly, this is not the case. "


1100 Euros is too expensive for me to purchase the ICM NACS II terminal, but thanks for posting that information.  It is very interesting.  Not many US dealers seem to have purchased this device.

You said here in our forum above, that you did try some cheaper alternative readers.
Did you have success with any of those?  Did you work with any Euro3 machines, from 2016 or earlier?

I wonder if the Proscan Automotive device will work with my USA export 2012, even though the auction text says 2018 - current?

Thanks again for posting this information.  With german language information, I can use a translator.  With the Hindi videos, I can only understand one word in 50.  I encourage you to start a K-line / OBD reader thread on this forum with this information.  I think many people will find it interesting.


viczena

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Reply #25 on: February 02, 2021, 08:18:00 am
In the article i posted you will find the yellow obd reader. it costs around $40. Works definitely on bikes >18. Could not try it on older bikes.
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Reply #26 on: February 22, 2021, 11:42:31 pm
An electric pulse meter can be a very handy tool for testing modern electrics.


axman88

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Reply #27 on: February 23, 2021, 02:17:44 am
An electric pulse meter can be a very handy tool for testing modern electrics.
What is that?  Haven't heard of a pulse meter.


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Reply #28 on: February 23, 2021, 07:33:20 am
The day I should need anything more than a voltmeter and maybe an can interface to read out the stored fault codes I am reverting to point´s ignition.

In Japan apparently you may need a scope to fix your toilett once you got an electric shock from it.

https://edition.cnn.com/style/article/toto-on-japan/index.html
« Last Edit: February 23, 2021, 07:35:58 am by derottone »
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Reply #29 on: February 23, 2021, 02:56:35 pm
The day I should need anything more than a voltmeter and maybe an can interface to read out the stored fault codes I am reverting to point´s ignition.

In Japan apparently you may need a scope to fix your toilett once you got an electric shock from it.

https://edition.cnn.com/style/article/toto-on-japan/index.html
[/quote

We're on the same page here. We're not working on the space shuttle,  a good multimeter will let you troubleshoot to the component level and  beyond. While a relatively inexpensive scan tool will generally point you in the right direction. In my experience most electrical  problems stem from the same things that have always caused problems:  loose connectors, broken wires and the occasional failed sensor or fried component.


axman88

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Reply #30 on: February 24, 2021, 07:51:59 am
The day I should need anything more than a voltmeter and maybe an can interface to read out the stored fault codes I am reverting to point´s ignition.
The singles use K-line, so a CAN interface won't do anything for me, and the singles prior to to 2017 don't talk to any scanners or readers.  A voltmeter or multimeter is fine within its limits, but it won't tell the difference between a injector with a stuck pintle and a working injector, and is worthless for sensors that encode their signals digitally or via PWM, or for looking at ignition pulses.

The old ways of doing things, like parts substitution, still works, but it's expensive and time consuming, especially when every part has to come mail order.  The new tools, and some knowledge, can handle the new technology.  The latest generation of auto electronics has sensors that communicate in digital packets, not via varying voltage.  There's none of that in my UCE, probably little to none in any RE, but it's coming.  I want to be ready.  Points and VOMs will still be available for the old dogs that prefer not to have to learn any new tricks.

I just bought a good old Simpson 260, in fact.  I needed it's 5000VDC range, and I'm shopping for a good old high voltage probe so I can measure up to 40kV.


zimmemr

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Reply #31 on: February 24, 2021, 11:09:19 pm
The singles use K-line, so a CAN interface won't do anything for me, and the singles prior to to 2017 don't talk to any scanners or readers.  A voltmeter or multimeter is fine within its limits, but it won't tell the difference between a injector with a stuck pintle and a working injector, and is worthless for sensors that encode their signals digitally or via PWM, or for looking at ignition pulses.

The old ways of doing things, like parts substitution, still works, but it's expensive and time consuming, especially when every part has to come mail order.  The new tools, and some knowledge, can handle the new technology.  The latest generation of auto electronics has sensors that communicate in digital packets, not via varying voltage.  There's none of that in my UCE, probably little to none in any RE, but it's coming.  I want to be ready.  Points and VOMs will still be available for the old dogs that prefer not to have to learn any new tricks.

I just bought a good old Simpson 260, in fact.  I needed it's 5000VDC range, and I'm shopping for a good old high voltage probe so I can measure up to 40kV.

All good points here but the one that hit home for me concerned the injectors. In some cases  even the ECU can't tell there's a problem with them. If the injector fails due to a mechanical issue, bad or stuck pintle, broken O ring, whatever, the ECU won't pick it up. So long as electronics are intact the ECU thinks everything is fine. I had a tough time explaining that to some of my younger mechanics, who sometimes thought that if their was no check engine light or DTC's the thing had to be running right. :o  Sometimes you just have to pull the damn thing apart and take a look at it.  ;)


axman88

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Reply #32 on: February 25, 2021, 04:14:10 am
All good points here but the one that hit home for me concerned the injectors. In some cases  even the ECU can't tell there's a problem with them. If the injector fails due to a mechanical issue, bad or stuck pintle, broken O ring, whatever, the ECU won't pick it up.   Sometimes you just have to pull the damn thing apart and take a look at it.

Or, you can pull out your $68 automotive Oscope with your cheap and dirty probe set, and look at the injector signals, do the diagnosis, order the part, and have it in your hands BEFORE you pull the damn thing apart, like this young lady is doing in this Utube video.   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5nBsGBzud0o   Notice she's back probing, it works!  Sure wouldn't want to invest a whole lot of my own money installing an ECU breakout header into somebody else's '86 chevy S-10, although I'm sure that the owner loves it.

I only get blinky code diagnosis with my '12 RE C5, and although other vehicles I might be fooling with may give more information than that, a code that says "engine misfire" can be a lot of things, and hard to find amongst the multiple cylinders, the multiple systems, and the many many sensors in an average vehicle.

My Hantek is quite a bit nicer than this, but a bottom end Oscope like these little, single board jobs, can be purchased nowadays cheaply enough to make  stocking stuffers:  https://www.ebay.com/itm/2-4-LCD-Display-DSO150-Digital-Oscilloscope-Assembled-With-Case-Test-Clip-US/284132195685   My brother says he's thinking of buying one of these for every one of his son's boy scout troop.  They are even cheaper when you buy it as a kit.  He's the "nerdy" dad, and they have an electronics merit badge.

But I'd want one with two channels, so I could compare two signals, like one of these DSO212s  https://www.ebay.com/itm/US-Seller-Nano-DSO212-Smart-LCD-Digital-Oscilloscope-USB-Interface-1MHz-10MSa-s/173883005017   It fits in a shirt pocket, and can help you be ready to take on the new century.


zimmemr

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Reply #33 on: February 25, 2021, 04:45:11 pm
Or, you can pull out your $68 automotive Oscope with your cheap and dirty probe set, and look at the injector signals, do the diagnosis, order the part, and have it in your hands BEFORE you pull the damn thing apart, like this young lady is doing in this Utube video.   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5nBsGBzud0o   Notice she's back probing, it works!  Sure wouldn't want to invest a whole lot of my own money installing an ECU breakout header into somebody else's '86 chevy S-10, although I'm sure that the owner loves it.

I only get blinky code diagnosis with my '12 RE C5, and although other vehicles I might be fooling with may give more information than that, a code that says "engine misfire" can be a lot of things, and hard to find amongst the multiple cylinders, the multiple systems, and the many many sensors in an average vehicle.

My Hantek is quite a bit nicer than this, but a bottom end Oscope like these little, single board jobs, can be purchased nowadays cheaply enough to make  stocking stuffers:  https://www.ebay.com/itm/2-4-LCD-Display-DSO150-Digital-Oscilloscope-Assembled-With-Case-Test-Clip-US/284132195685   My brother says he's thinking of buying one of these for every one of his son's boy scout troop.  They are even cheaper when you buy it as a kit.  He's the "nerdy" dad, and they have an electronics merit badge.

But I'd want one with two channels, so I could compare two signals, like one of these DSO212s  https://www.ebay.com/itm/US-Seller-Nano-DSO212-Smart-LCD-Digital-Oscilloscope-USB-Interface-1MHz-10MSa-s/173883005017   It fits in a shirt pocket, and can help you be ready to take on the new century.

My apologies, I should have been clearer, though I didn't state it, I was thinking specifically about a HEUI diesel injector. With those you often have a situation where the electrical portion of the injector works perfectly well and will pass every test, but due to bad injector O ring(s) in either the fuel or oil passage or physical damage to the mechanical portion of the injector you end up with a misfire or dead hole. It speaks poorly of my proof reading skills so again I apologize.  :-[ :-[ :-[


Karl Fenn

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Reply #34 on: March 23, 2021, 02:18:01 pm
Well a pulse meter gives you the advantage on being able to read injectors hall sensors, they read the electrical pulses, when it pulses the light flashers, you only need them on a newer bike older bikes you can just use multi meter, a pulse meter is sometimes referred to as a logic probe, it has three LED red, orange, green, it also has capability to measure live circuit up to 18v DC, you can get them on web, they also measure the pulse on injectors and such like where it would be difficult to use meter. You can buy them on eBay.


Karl Fenn

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Reply #35 on: March 23, 2021, 03:33:40 pm
They sill listed on eBay they have gone up a bit since l bought mine which was quite a few years ago, just put in logic probe, they changed the pages now do to covid if you put in pulse meter it just comes up finger testing oxygen meters, put logic probe in bar then search then you will see the various types.


Karl Fenn

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Reply #36 on: March 23, 2021, 03:41:59 pm
I have a laser type digital gun thermometer came from china, very good for measuring your engine temp or inside your freezer and accurate, l tested it against another so there is no question as to accuracy, that was cheap as chips, also a probe camera you can see inside heads that type of thing, fork tubes, not the best image in the world but does the job that was cheap as well.


Karl Fenn

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Reply #37 on: May 02, 2021, 03:27:09 pm
An electronic pulse meter


axman88

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Reply #38 on: May 03, 2021, 05:17:46 pm
Well a pulse meter gives you the advantage on being able to read injectors hall sensors, they read the electrical pulses, when it pulses the light flashers, you only need them on a newer bike older bikes you can just use multi meter, a pulse meter is sometimes referred to as a logic probe, it has three LED red, orange, green, it also has capability to measure live circuit up to 18v DC, you can get them on web, they also measure the pulse on injectors and such like where it would be difficult to use meter. You can buy them on eBay.
Yes, had more luck finding this tool as "logic probe".  I see most offer selectable TTL / CMOS modes, which will change the high/low voltage thresholds.  I saw at least one unit that specifically allowed 12V automotive voltage levels, where others aren't specific.

Here's a spec. sheet from what I'd consider a good quality tester from B&K:  https://www.alliedelec.com/m/d/7d0f656b5e7e7cbfde9ce4a2e0d826c1.pdf

I believe that my RE's Keihin ECU operates certain sensor circuits at 5V (TTL?) level, while other circuits, like the fuel injector is operated at 12V.

Seems like, if I was using the B&K DP-21 on the spec sheet, the voltage thresholds would be
              TTL            CMOS (referenced to B+ at 12V)
High      2.30V          8.40V
Low       0.80V          3.60V

Anything in between these values is indeterminate.

Which setting would I want to use, if I wasn't sure what voltage a given circuit I was probing was supposed to be operating at, or does it matter?


viczena

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Reply #39 on: May 04, 2021, 08:39:15 am
I still dont know what a logic probe would tell you on a bike that a simple voltmeter would not do. And you have to attach it to the right voltage source.
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Reply #40 on: May 04, 2021, 09:01:38 am
I still dont know what a logic probe would tell you on a bike that a simple voltmeter would not do. And you have to attach it to the right voltage source.

+1.....I usually use a logic probe when "repairing" arcade boards and old video consoles...they are good for looking if chips are broken


axman88

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Reply #41 on: May 04, 2021, 03:47:07 pm
A voltmeter isn't fast enough to register pulses.  For example injector pulse less than 10 milliseconds will be entirely missed by an analog or digital voltmeter.

However, for that application, and most others, the O-scope will be far superior to the logic probe, giving ability to visualize and analyze the inductive pulse of the injector.

The logic probe is inexpensive and small, and faster than a simple test light,  but not that much cheaper than the latest generation of basic O-scopes like this one:
https://www.amazon.com/DSO-Shell-Oscilloscope-DSO150-15001K/dp/B076HD5862

If I had only one tool, it would be the analog multimeter, which I find superior to the DMM, but it is fragile and not suitable for transporting on the bike.  The only test equipment that I carry with me, as part of the bike's kit is a 99 cent, digital volt meter with a couple of alligator clips leads soldered on.  https://www.ebay.com/itm/174517694133 


Karl Fenn

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Reply #42 on: May 05, 2021, 11:25:33 am
Well for a start a volt meter would not read a pulse of hall sensor, they have a specific function, bikes do not read in volts anymore so it would be impossible to test, l suppose in that situation you would flick the tumblers and see if it reads, l know it does injectors and pulses, but the instructions were not the best in some cases you were flying blind, l will have to do some more study on the full range of usage.


viczena

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Reply #43 on: May 05, 2021, 05:13:48 pm
The CPS is a magnetic sensor, not a Hall Effect. It has just 2 wires. It produces a AC sinus waveform of 3-5Volts.
« Last Edit: May 05, 2021, 06:00:56 pm by viczena »
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Reply #44 on: May 05, 2021, 10:20:50 pm
Well therefore if it gives off a reading of 3.5 AC it would follow it should be rested bmw use an LED on there Hall effect sensors to set timing so that clearly concludes they are testable.


viczena

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Reply #45 on: May 15, 2021, 10:38:31 am
If you really want tro buy something usefull, look at this:

https://www.amazon.de/gp/product/B0030Z3IHO/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

No need to search for fitting cables anymore. You can securely measure connectors without needing 4 hands. Or shortcutting connectors while you push big uninsulated probes into a small plug.
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