Unofficial Royal Enfield Community Forum

Royal Enfield Motorcycles => 650 Interceptor & Continental GT => Topic started by: iblastoff on July 19, 2021, 06:30:51 am

Title: jdcustomco tail tidy / indicator parts?
Post by: iblastoff on July 19, 2021, 06:30:51 am
anyone try the tail tidy and indicators from here? they seem super cheap (after conversion).

(https://d2j6dbq0eux0bg.cloudfront.net/images/11231185/1926038822.jpg)

the tail tidy definitely doesnt look the best (it just leaves the electrical wire in the back just dangling out? weird) but still better than the giant stock setup.

https://www.jdcustomco.com/online-store/Tail-Tidy-with-Taillight-for-650twins-p282405433

(https://d2j6dbq0eux0bg.cloudfront.net/images/11231185/1926058746.jpg)

the indicators are billet aluminum and seem to be a nice balance of small without being super tiny.
https://www.jdcustomco.com/online-store/Indicators-For-650Twins-p282508361

curious if anyone has any of this on their bikes? havent seen and tried searching.
Title: Re: jdcustomco tail tidy / indicator parts?
Post by: Hoiho on July 19, 2021, 08:03:46 am
Tail light appears to be powered by a candle. Near zero peripheral visibility.
Title: Re: jdcustomco tail tidy / indicator parts?
Post by: lucky phil on July 19, 2021, 08:22:25 am
Tail light appears to be powered by a candle. Near zero peripheral visibility.
And therein lies the modifiers challenge. How to make it Simple, stylish, elegant and functional. Most of what I see only only fulfils the first criteria.

Ciao
Title: Re: jdcustomco tail tidy / indicator parts?
Post by: deepfreak15 on July 19, 2021, 03:05:18 pm
 I really like the period look and effect of the indicators and tail lamp however, I am not comfortable with the exposed wires especially for the front indicators. Also the installation requires you  to add about 4 washers per bolt (if I remember correctly),inlcluded in the box and they come only in silver, which might not look that great if I got the black finish. Otherwise these are everything I would like to have on my bike, pity!
Title: Re: jdcustomco tail tidy / indicator parts?
Post by: supercub on July 19, 2021, 03:10:45 pm
Not good if you ride on congested areas. If you get T-boned, the driver can pin it on you for not having correct lighting.
Title: Re: jdcustomco tail tidy / indicator parts?
Post by: Seatex on July 19, 2021, 04:45:22 pm
I really like the aesthetic. And the price seems very reasonable. The tail light looks great, but I see that it is a double filament bulb, and the license plate bracket is not included, according to the website listing.
I have ordered a similar type tail light, which has been shipped (apparently on a slow boat from China). It is double the price. However, I'm hoping the multiple LED lights will mean it is brighter. I don't find the protruding lens cap to look as nice as the model you posted, but it should address the peripheral visibility issue mentioned by a previous commenter. It also comes with the license plate bracket. So all in all, I'm not unhappy with the purchase. Now I'll just hope it lives up to my expectations when it arrives. I can admit that I've lost a few bucks on some "trial and error" mods. I'll post pics when I get it mounted. Let us know what you end up buying.

https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B095C5PRGG/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o03_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
Title: Re: jdcustomco tail tidy / indicator parts?
Post by: Seatex on July 19, 2021, 04:49:01 pm
Edit
Title: Re: jdcustomco tail tidy / indicator parts?
Post by: iblastoff on July 19, 2021, 05:34:33 pm
I really like the aesthetic. And the price seems very reasonable. The tail light looks great, but I see that it is a double filament bulb, and the license plate bracket is not included, according to the website listing.
I have ordered a similar type tail light, which has been shipped (apparently on a slow boat from China). It is double the price. However, I'm hoping the multiple LED lights will mean it is brighter. I don't find the protruding lens cap to look as nice as the model you posted, but it should address the peripheral visibility issue mentioned by a previous commenter. It also comes with the license plate bracket. So all in all, I'm not unhappy with the purchase. Now I'll just hope it lives up to my expectations when it arrives. I can admit that I've lost a few bucks on some "trial and error" mods. I'll post pics when I get it mounted. Let us know what you end up buying.

https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B095C5PRGG/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o03_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

personally im not really concerned about the peripheral issue on the tail light. i just looked at my ducati and the 100% stock tail light is tucked under the seat and hard to see from the sides too. if im in a congested area and someone t-bones me, i doubt they didnt see me because of a tiny sliver of red in a sea of traffic/car lights all around me. its more likely because my bike is nearly all black lol.

but yah overall im having a hard time trying to find a decent tail tidy without too much heavy modification (dont want to remove the rear hoop or anything like that). other tail tidys ive seen made specifically for this bike seem insanely expensive (baak). of course theres always the generic 'universal' stuff but i want to avoid too much trial and error.

i think the jdcustoms one *does* come with a plate bracket. its just worded weird.
The description says "Tail Tidy no.plate bracket with Taillight." i think just means "Tail Tidy Number plate bracket with Tailight" but i could be wrong. I'll ask them and for the price i might just trial and error it (but was hoping to avoid by asking here first lol)


the one you chose looks alright! hopefully works out for you.
Title: Re: jdcustomco tail tidy / indicator parts?
Post by: Seatex on July 19, 2021, 08:45:07 pm
I think you read that correctly. My mistake.
Title: Re: jdcustomco tail tidy / indicator parts?
Post by: Starpeve on July 19, 2021, 09:27:55 pm
anyone try the tail tidy and indicators from here? they seem super cheap (after conversion).

(https://d2j6dbq0eux0bg.cloudfront.net/images/11231185/1926038822.jpg)

the tail tidy definitely doesnt look the best (it just leaves the electrical wire in the back just dangling out? weird) but still better than the giant stock setup.

https://www.jdcustomco.com/online-store/Tail-Tidy-with-Taillight-for-650twins-p282405433

(https://d2j6dbq0eux0bg.cloudfront.net/images/11231185/1926058746.jpg)

the indicators are billet aluminum and seem to be a nice balance of small without being super tiny.
https://www.jdcustomco.com/online-store/Indicators-For-650Twins-p282508361

curious if anyone has any of this on their bikes? havent seen and tried searching.
DEFINITELY not to many peoples taste but here’s mine, which was the look and position I was aiming for..
Title: Re: jdcustomco tail tidy / indicator parts?
Post by: lucky phil on July 19, 2021, 11:40:05 pm
DEFINITELY not to many peoples taste but here’s mine, which was the look and position I was aiming for..

The number plate hanging in the breeze below the level of the rear guard is such an untidy look for mine. Gives the rear a backyard hackers look.
What about this as an alternative. Plate moved up under the light as much as possible and the reflector below. If you wanted it shorter you could do away with the reflector and shorten the black guard extension a bit more.

Ciao

 
Title: Re: jdcustomco tail tidy / indicator parts?
Post by: Steve Jackson on July 20, 2021, 01:18:43 am
Might not be tidy enough for some, but does remove the indicators that stick out a mile
Title: Re: jdcustomco tail tidy / indicator parts?
Post by: Starpeve on July 20, 2021, 01:25:55 am
The number plate hanging in the breeze below the level of the rear guard is such an untidy look for mine. Gives the rear a backyard hackers look.
What about this as an alternative. Plate moved up under the light as much as possible and the reflector below. If you wanted it shorter you could do away with the reflector and shorten the black guard extension a bit more.

Ciao
Got mine tucked up hard against the taillight, it’s higher than the guard. That shit plastic extension went in the first week. The plate is currently located higher than in this pic, as high as it’ll go
Title: Re: jdcustomco tail tidy / indicator parts?
Post by: lucky phil on July 20, 2021, 01:43:37 am
Got mine tucked up hard against the taillight, it’s higher than the guard. That shit plastic extension went in the first week. The plate is currently located higher than in this pic, as high as it’ll go

Yea personally I'm not a fan of that look. God SA plates are wide which doesn't help but not much you can do about that I guess.
Not in the same league as post 11, man thats a garage door on the back:)

Ciao
Title: Re: jdcustomco tail tidy / indicator parts?
Post by: iblastoff on July 20, 2021, 01:55:19 am
Got mine tucked up hard against the taillight, it’s higher than the guard. That shit plastic extension went in the first week. The plate is currently located higher than in this pic, as high as it’ll go

can i ask which paddock and set of spools you have there?
Title: Re: jdcustomco tail tidy / indicator parts?
Post by: Starpeve on July 20, 2021, 03:05:38 am
can i ask which paddock and set of spools you have there?
Just some generic spools off ebay
Title: Re: jdcustomco tail tidy / indicator parts?
Post by: Intybe on July 20, 2021, 05:00:14 am
The number plate hanging in the breeze below the level of the rear guard is such an untidy look for mine. Gives the rear a backyard hackers look.
What about this as an alternative. Plate moved up under the light as much as possible and the reflector below. If you wanted it shorter you could do away with the reflector and shorten the black guard extension a bit more.

Ciao
Off topic, your new Inty touring seat looks the biz. How to you like it?
Title: Re: jdcustomco tail tidy / indicator parts?
Post by: lucky phil on July 20, 2021, 05:08:09 am
Off topic, your new Inty touring seat looks the biz. How to you like it?

An improvement in pretty much every way. Better support and shape and due to the raised profile less knee bend especially for the pillion. I bought it mainly for my pillions comfort and to provide less knee bend and comfort but its also better for the rider as well.

Ciao 
Title: Re: jdcustomco tail tidy / indicator parts?
Post by: Starpeve on July 20, 2021, 05:26:22 am
can i ask which paddock and set of spools you have there?
The paddock stand was also EBay generic cheapie
Title: Re: jdcustomco tail tidy / indicator parts?
Post by: Starpeve on July 20, 2021, 05:29:25 am
Got mine tucked up hard against the taillight, it’s higher than the guard. That shit plastic extension went in the first week. The plate is currently located higher than in this pic, as high as it’ll go
Actually, mistake. That IS the current setup. There is actually a frame behind the plate
Title: Re: jdcustomco tail tidy / indicator parts?
Post by: 55CM1 on July 20, 2021, 07:46:27 am
Good morning, I put this in my bike. from BAAK
Title: Re: jdcustomco tail tidy / indicator parts?
Post by: whippers on July 20, 2021, 08:25:44 am
The number plate hanging in the breeze below the level of the rear guard is such an untidy look for mine. Gives the rear a backyard hackers look.
What about this as an alternative. Plate moved up under the light as much as possible and the reflector below. If you wanted it shorter you could do away with the reflector and shorten the black guard extension a bit more.

Ciao

how do you like the touring seat?
Title: Re: jdcustomco tail tidy / indicator parts?
Post by: lucky phil on July 20, 2021, 09:56:09 am
how do you like the touring seat?
Looks better, gives added support, a better shape and increases the height a little for the pillion especially so their knee bend isn't so extreme and looks better for mine. Cheap to by and I had it in my hands 8 days after I ordered it from India. I strongly believe in giving honest feedback even if it means everyone knows I've wasted my money, but in this case it's all positive.

Ciao
Title: Re: jdcustomco tail tidy / indicator parts?
Post by: whippers on July 20, 2021, 11:09:26 am
Looks better, gives added support, a better shape and increases the height a little for the pillion especially so their knee bend isn't so extreme and looks better for mine. Cheap to by and I had it in my hands 8 days after I ordered it from India. I strongly believe in giving honest feedback even if it means everyone knows I've wasted my money, but in this case it's all positive.

Ciao

Thanks for that. Which vendor did you use?
Title: Re: jdcustomco tail tidy / indicator parts?
Post by: Intybe on July 20, 2021, 12:02:30 pm
Thanks for that. Which vendor did you use?
+1
Phil recommended royal-sparezo and royalspareparts previously. I've had good experience buying from the former, as well (no experience with the latter.)
Title: Re: jdcustomco tail tidy / indicator parts?
Post by: lucky phil on July 20, 2021, 12:53:24 pm
Thanks for that. Which vendor did you use?

For the seat, royalspareparts. Ordered on the 16, arrived on the 24th.

Ciao
Title: Re: jdcustomco tail tidy / indicator parts?
Post by: 2wheelsmovethesoul on July 21, 2021, 07:37:23 pm
Holy mother of all that is beautiful......those site you guys are buying stuff from, are expensive/overpriced out of this world! Well, atleast, for the Indian market.

For reference, a set of OEM wheel hubs (front and rear), is listed at 441USD, which is 32,800INR. The whole damn bike costs 320,000INR approx.


<https://www.sparezo.com/royal-enfield-twins-gt-and-interceptor-650-front-and-rear-wheel-hub-assembly-black>

Same with the seats! Can't you guys get stuff over there itself? And if yes, what are the differentials in cost to customer?

For what it's worth, I wanted the black wheels on my Int650 (I have the OC, no choice since I bought used) and I asked the RE dealer in my city. The quote around 8000INR for each wheel (the whole thing, spokes, hubs and laced)
Title: Re: jdcustomco tail tidy / indicator parts?
Post by: 2wheelsmovethesoul on July 21, 2021, 07:44:34 pm
https://www.royalenfield.com/in/en/gma/1990413/

https://www.sparezo.com/products/interceptor-650/royal-enfield-gt-continental-and-interceptor-650-short-flyscreen-kit

This is what I'm talking about.
Title: Re: jdcustomco tail tidy / indicator parts?
Post by: iblastoff on July 21, 2021, 08:40:00 pm
Good morning, I put this in my bike. from BAAK

i like it! just wish it didnt cost so much haha.
Title: Re: jdcustomco tail tidy / indicator parts?
Post by: iblastoff on July 21, 2021, 08:43:26 pm
Holy mother of all that is beautiful......those site you guys are buying stuff from, are expensive/overpriced out of this world! Well, atleast, for the Indian market.

For reference, a set of OEM wheel hubs (front and rear), is listed at 441USD, which is 32,800INR. The whole damn bike costs 320,000INR approx.


<https://www.sparezo.com/royal-enfield-twins-gt-and-interceptor-650-front-and-rear-wheel-hub-assembly-black>

Same with the seats! Can't you guys get stuff over there itself? And if yes, what are the differentials in cost to customer?

For what it's worth, I wanted the black wheels on my Int650 (I have the OC, no choice since I bought used) and I asked the RE dealer in my city. The quote around 8000INR for each wheel (the whole thing, spokes, hubs and laced)

shrug. here in canada if you want to buy the royal enfield bar end mirrors, its a whopping 329$ (CAD). i just bought a pair from india on ebay for like $100 (and even that amount is expensive in india).
Title: Re: jdcustomco tail tidy / indicator parts?
Post by: Hoiho on July 21, 2021, 10:04:16 pm
Holy mother of all that is beautiful......those site you guys are buying stuff from, are expensive/overpriced out of this world! Well, atleast, for the Indian market.

For reference, a set of OEM wheel hubs (front and rear), is listed at 441USD, which is 32,800INR. The whole damn bike costs 320,000INR approx.


<https://www.sparezo.com/royal-enfield-twins-gt-and-interceptor-650-front-and-rear-wheel-hub-assembly-black>

Same with the seats! Can't you guys get stuff over there itself? And if yes, what are the differentials in cost to customer?

For what it's worth, I wanted the black wheels on my Int650 (I have the OC, no choice since I bought used) and I asked the RE dealer in my city. The quote around 8000INR for each wheel (the whole thing, spokes, hubs and laced)

Yep, I've always thought those two sites were expensive.
Title: Re: jdcustomco tail tidy / indicator parts?
Post by: lucky phil on July 22, 2021, 02:14:50 am
https://www.royalenfield.com/in/en/gma/1990413/

https://www.sparezo.com/products/interceptor-650/royal-enfield-gt-continental-and-interceptor-650-short-flyscreen-kit

This is what I'm talking about.

Well I paid $65aud for my screen landed here all taxes paid. So $34aud on top of Indian retail for the shipping, taxes and the service. Seems reasonable to me esp after years of paying for Ducati parts. Nice to have the comparison though and probably worthwhile pursuing the direct option for bigger items. I did note the cost of wheel hubs and thought they were expensive comparatively.
The issue is of course finding an Indian Retailer that will charge Indian retail and go through the hassle of shipping overseas for reasonable shipping costs and you can trust (no slight intended) and is convenient for payment and you have insurance if you don't get your item. You'll never get the official Indian site store to ship to a foreign country, they'll just re direct you to the foreign countries dealer network and you'll pay local prices.
Sometimes you need to accept the added cost for the service and piece of mind. You get what you pay for. You also need to consider what the relative value of INR1750 is in India compared to what the relative value of $65aud is in Australia.   

Ciao 

Title: Re: jdcustomco tail tidy / indicator parts?
Post by: iblastoff on July 22, 2021, 03:58:53 am
damn why do tail tidys for the 650 cost this much?
https://roguemotorcycles.com.au/products/royal-enfield-650-tail-tidy
Title: Re: jdcustomco tail tidy / indicator parts?
Post by: robrobsen on July 22, 2021, 04:30:36 am
Here’s how mine looks. All ordered from Baak.
Title: Re: jdcustomco tail tidy / indicator parts?
Post by: whippers on July 22, 2021, 08:46:23 pm
Here’s how mine looks. All ordered from Baak.

Out of all the stuff I’ve seen Baak is clearly the classiest.  My only question is the taillight wire supposed to be visible like that? Kind of ruins the look
Title: Re: jdcustomco tail tidy / indicator parts?
Post by: gizzo on July 23, 2021, 02:23:43 am
Got mine tucked up hard against the taillight, it’s higher than the guard. That shit plastic extension went in the first week. The plate is currently located higher than in this pic, as high as it’ll go
I had a very severe warning from a plod for having my number plate mounted like that on my bobber. Not vertical enough to be easily read and a $700 fine for non compliant number plate if they want to make a point. So I hung it underneath the mudguard "backyard hack" style where it was both legal and made the guard compliant with the 45 deg from the axle rule. Got a defect for noise and no front guard but that's my fault I guess.
SA cops huh?  ::)
Title: Re: jdcustomco tail tidy / indicator parts?
Post by: lucky phil on July 23, 2021, 02:42:02 am
I had a very severe warning from a plod for having my number plate mounted like that on my bobber. Not vertical enough to be easily read and a $700 fine for non compliant number plate if they want to make a point. So I hung it underneath the mudguard "backyard hack" style where it was both legal and made the guard compliant with the 45 deg from the axle rule. Got a defect for noise and no front guard but that's my fault I guess.
SA cops huh?  ::)

SA cops also used to defect drivers of VX/VZ series Commodores that retro fitted the Monaro bonnets with the std factory bonnet scoops. A totally std Holden part but they reasoned that the sedans weren't actually released with that bonnet which was a direct bolt on exchange and therefore hadn't passed the pre production crash test criterion for the sedan version of the car! Adelaide cops, haven't they got anything meaningful to do in their daily policing activities?
 

Ciao
Title: Re: jdcustomco tail tidy / indicator parts?
Post by: Starpeve on July 23, 2021, 02:48:00 am
I had a very severe warning from a plod for having my number plate mounted like that on my bobber. Not vertical enough to be easily read and a $700 fine for non compliant number plate if they want to make a point. So I hung it underneath the mudguard "backyard hack" style where it was both legal and made the guard compliant with the 45 deg from the axle rule. Got a defect for noise and no front guard but that's my fault I guess.
SA cops huh?  ::)
Yeah Simo, I’ve been a bit nervy about that. I’m going to alter the plate mount slightly to get it a bit more vertical. Thanks for the prompt, I’ve been putting it off. They’d no doubt jump on the taillight job too, although the copper next door said he wouldn’t worry about it too much. Better safe than sorry I reckon.
Not that the girl’s seen much action of late, had other concerns preoccupying me.
Cheers mate Steve
Title: Re: jdcustomco tail tidy / indicator parts?
Post by: robrobsen on July 23, 2021, 03:26:25 am
Out of all the stuff I’ve seen Baak is clearly the classiest.  My only question is the taillight wire supposed to be visible like that? Kind of ruins the look
That’s the only way how to route the cable as come up behind the Taillight.
Title: Re: jdcustomco tail tidy / indicator parts?
Post by: NVDucati on July 23, 2021, 03:51:08 am
That’s the only way how to route the cable as come up behind the Taillight.
Any chance of a wee hole in the fender and run the wires underneath the fender to wherever they go now?
Title: Re: jdcustomco tail tidy / indicator parts?
Post by: gizzo on July 23, 2021, 05:29:21 am
Adelaide cops, haven't they got anything meaningful to do in their daily policing activities?
 

Ciao

Not really, I don't think. Harassing motorists is a lot less risky to their safety than doing actual policing of bad people.

Yeah Simo, I’ve been a bit nervy about that. I’m going to alter the plate mount slightly to get it a bit more vertical. Thanks for the prompt, I’ve been putting it off. They’d no doubt jump on the taillight job too, although the copper next door said he wouldn’t worry about it too much. Better safe than sorry I reckon.
Not that the girl’s seen much action of late, had other concerns preoccupying me.
Cheers mate Steve

No worries old mate. Seeya when I seeya. Take care.
Title: Re: jdcustomco tail tidy / indicator parts?
Post by: lucky phil on July 23, 2021, 06:07:07 am
Not really, I don't think. Harassing motorists is a lot less risky to their safety than doing actual policing of bad people.

No worries old mate. Seeya when I seeya. Take care.

When I was in New York not far from times square at a big intersection there was this huge guy shirtless with obvious mental health issue in the middle of the road harassing people as they crossed including middle aged ladies, anyone really. A Police car with 2 cops cruised close by and took look at this guy and I'm thinking Oh good they'll sort this guy out. Nope, saw what was going on and headed for the hills. LOL.
The only other NY cop I spoke to couldn't direct me to the nearest Subway station. Turned out to be around the corner about 50 metres away.

Ciao     
Title: Re: jdcustomco tail tidy / indicator parts?
Post by: justonemore on July 23, 2021, 07:18:35 am
When I was in New York not far from times square at a big intersection there was this huge guy shirtless with obvious mental health issue in the middle of the road harassing people as they crossed including middle aged ladies, anyone really. A Police car with 2 cops cruised close by and took look at this guy and I'm thinking Oh good they'll sort this guy out. Nope, saw what was going on and headed for the hills. LOL.
The only other NY cop I spoke to couldn't direct me to the nearest Subway station. Turned out to be around the corner about 50 metres away.

Ciao     

Strange, from what I've been hearing you would have expected them to wind a window down and empty a handgun clip into the nutter.
The cop who couldn't direct you to the subway probably didn't speak Australian.
 
Title: Re: jdcustomco tail tidy / indicator parts?
Post by: lucky phil on July 23, 2021, 08:28:15 am
Strange, from what I've been hearing you would have expected them to wind a window down and empty a handgun clip into the nutter.
The cop who couldn't direct you to the subway probably didn't speak Australian.

Ha, maybe. Weird place NY. Saw a skinny old lady of at least 80 in nothing but a G string and body paint in Times Square. You can't unsee that.

Ciao   
Title: Re: jdcustomco tail tidy / indicator parts?
Post by: zimmemr on July 23, 2021, 01:21:52 pm
Ha, maybe. Weird place NY. Saw a skinny old lady of at least 80 in nothing but a G string and body paint in Times Square. You can't unsee that.

Ciao   


She was probably in her 20's, living in the City, will age you... :D I probably shouldn't even mention it but did you happen to notice the Naked Cowboy?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m3gBX5wS2Z

Title: Re: jdcustomco tail tidy / indicator parts?
Post by: lucky phil on July 23, 2021, 01:36:33 pm

She was probably in her 20's, living in the City, will age you... :D I probably shouldn't even mention it but did you happen to notice the Naked Cowboy?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m3gBX5wS2Z

Yep, saw him as well but he didn't have breasts hanging at knee level.

Ciao
Title: Re: jdcustomco tail tidy / indicator parts?
Post by: zimmemr on July 23, 2021, 02:18:27 pm
Yep, saw him as well but he didn't have breasts hanging at knee level.

Ciao

Your knees or hers? :o
Title: Re: jdcustomco tail tidy / indicator parts?
Post by: ideola on July 27, 2021, 02:47:07 am
Relevant:
https://forum.classicmotorworks.com/index.php?topic=31350.0
Title: Re: jdcustomco tail tidy / indicator parts?
Post by: iblastoff on July 27, 2021, 05:27:11 pm
Relevant:
https://forum.classicmotorworks.com/index.php?topic=31350.0

i saw these but i find them too expensive. to be honest the jdcustomco ones looks very similar but are way cheaper.
Title: Re: jdcustomco tail tidy / indicator parts?
Post by: ideola on July 27, 2021, 05:33:29 pm
i saw these but i find them too expensive. to be honest the jdcustomco ones looks very similar but are way cheaper.
yeah, but brass  :P