[gashousegorilla]

   Excellent video..

  In actuality , what happens to that flyweight and pin mechanism  when it is rotated at low rpm's on the cam spindle , the flyweight does NOT stay  activated or IN towards the center of the Cam gear. .... It flomps  in and out , activating and deactivating that pin in the base circle of the Cam.  It is a hit and miss affair.    As the nose of the  Cam is pointed down or heading to the 6 O'clock position , the flyweight drops towards the center and flips up the pin in the base circle.   And as the nose of the Cam starts heading towards the 12 O'clock position , the flyweight moves OUT and away from the center of the Cam gear flipping that pin back below the surface of the base circle.   It is as much a TIMED event as it is anything else . However ... it activates erratically  depending on RPM .  Sometimes the decomp pin is UP in time to hit that wheel of the lifter and sometimes it comes up after the lifters wheel has already gone by it.  But the next time around it may hit it ?!      Whack !..... whack !.. whack ! ........... whack !......whack! whack!.................  whack !  Inconsistent and unstable.    The  Hydraulic lifter see's this insatiability as lash and does what it is designed to do and it pumps up trying to take up the lash....  Cracking open the exhaust valve and killing the compression.   It will stay pumped until it can cycle through again , without instability.    Or when the rpm's get high enough , where it can keep that flyweight pinned out and away from the center of the Cam gear.   But when you roll on and off the throttle , particularly at lower RPM's ....  or even if your idle is a touch to low ?   That erratic decomp behavior may start up again ?      Is it worth it  to loose compression ?  Or potentially burn and exhaust valve ?

[tooseevee]

   Excellent video..

  In actuality , what happens to that flyweight and pin mechanism  when it is rotated at low rpm's on the cam spindle , the flyweight does NOT stay  activated or IN towards the center of the Cam gear. .... It flomps  in and out , activating and deactivating that pin in the base circle of the Cam.  It is a hit and miss affair.    As the nose of the  Cam is pointed down or heading to the 6 O'clock position , the flyweight drops towards the center and flips up the pin in the base circle.   And as the nose of the Cam starts heading towards the 12 O'clock position , the flyweight moves OUT and away from the center of the Cam gear flipping that pin back below the surface of the base circle.   It is as much a TIMED event as it is anything else . However ... it activates erratically  depending on RPM .  Sometimes the decomp pin is UP in time to hit that wheel of the lifter and sometimes it comes up after the lifters wheel has already gone by it.  But the next time around it may hit it ?!      Whack !..... whack !.. whack ! ........... whack !......whack! whack!.................  whack !  Inconsistent and unstable.    The  Hydraulic lifter see's this insatiability as lash and does what it is designed to do and it pumps up trying to take up the lash....  Cracking open the exhaust valve and killing the compression.   It will stay pumped until it can cycle through again , without instability.    Or when the rpm's get high enough , where it can keep that flyweight pinned out and away from the center of the Cam gear.   But when you roll on and off the throttle , particularly at lower RPM's ....  or even if your idle is a touch to low ?   That erratic decomp behavior may start up again ?      Is it worth it  to loose compression ?  Or potentially burn and exhaust valve ?

      What you say, and I respect what you say, just reinforces my belief that the only decompressor that actually does the job is the old school one where you pull a lever and it actually opens up a hole in the compression chamber. The stupid thing they tried on the AVL was just that; A Stupid Thing. That's why mine is totally removed, every bit of it. When you pull on the lever of an AVL "decompressor" you are decompressing NOTHING unless the engine is rotated ALONG WITH holding the lever pulled.

        It looks like that fancy-shmancy thing they came up with on the UCE is no better.

         Just sayin'.

[gashousegorilla]

  YUP !    And just to add to what you said .   Engines actually start easier with healthy compression ?!    Duh !  It boggles the mind  I tell ya .   And it does next to NOTHING in regards to making the bike easier to kick start .   Come on now ?   Put a little weight on it and give it a swat ... it ain't hard !   The decomp is probably missing the mark anyway half the time  ! And how many people are actually kick starting these bikes on a regular basis ?   It DOES have an E starter .    And please don't tell me they devised that  inaccurate and inconsistent  contraption.... which adds cost and complexity to the Exhaust cam ... only to protect a  sh!t sprag ?!   Ahh... hows about a better sprag  ?!  Duh !   Thankfully they did do THAT .  And I have had no problems with the upgraded sprag and NO decompressor for the last 7 or 8 years that I had it .    Protect the starter maybe ?    It's a Nippon Denso starter we have here in the states and it has proved to be Bullet proof.   So please RE ... PLEASE  !  Stop cutting trench's in these exhaust cams !       Rant over .... 

[Mad4Bullets]

So with the decompessor completely removed from the exhaust cam, doesn't the resulting space in the heel of the cam cause its own problems each time the follower jumps the gap? Does anyone use red Loctite to keep the flat on the pin rotated to align with the cam heal? Is there another cam available with the stock profile and none of the decompressor guts?

[GlennF]

  YUP !    And just to add to what you said .   Engines actually start easier with healthy compression ?!    Duh !  It boggles the mind  I tell ya .   And it does next to NOTHING in regards to making the bike easier to kick start .   Come on now ?   Put a little weight on it and give it a swat ... it ain't hard !   The decomp is probably missing the mark anyway half the time  ! And how many people are actually kick starting these bikes on a regular basis ?   It DOES have an E starter .    And please don't tell me they devised that  inaccurate and inconsistent  contraption.... which adds cost and complexity to the Exhaust cam ... only to protect a  sh!t sprag ?!   Ahh... hows about a better sprag  ?!  Duh !   Thankfully they did do THAT .  And I have had no problems with the upgraded sprag and NO decompressor for the last 7 or 8 years that I had it .    Protect the starter maybe ?    It's a Nippon Denso starter we have here in the states and it has proved to be Bullet proof.   So please RE ... PLEASE  !  Stop cutting trench's in these exhaust cams !       Rant over .... 

The decompressor on my B5 works most of the time, but there are periods of up to a week where it seems to stick and not decompress.  During those times even rolling the bike down a hill and dropping the clutch in second just locks up the rear wheel

As far as kick starting when the decompressor is working, its pretty much fires first kick every time on a new clean spark plug and pretty much never kick starts after a week or two around town when the plug has fouled up a bit from the over rich mixture at slow speeds.

[tooseevee]

As far as kick starting when the decompressor is working, its pretty much fires first kick every time on a new clean spark plug and pretty much never kick starts after a week or two around town when the plug has fouled up a bit from the over rich mixture at slow speeds.

       Is there a Champion plug for that bike of yours? Ans: Yes, of course there is. And there are cross-references all over the place.

      If I had tried a Champion plug in my AVL YEARS before I finally DID, I would have saved myself years of chasing gremlins I convinced myself were carburetor-caused.

        The whole story is in the dusty stacks somewhere.

         Just a suggestion - not saying it'll work for you.

[gashousegorilla]

So with the decompessor completely removed from the exhaust cam, doesn't the resulting space in the heel of the cam cause its own problems each time the follower jumps the gap? Does anyone use red Loctite to keep the flat on the pin rotated to align with the cam heal? Is there another cam available with the stock profile and none of the decompressor guts?

   Partially .... the lifters wheel runs about a half to three quarters of a way over that trench in the base circle of the cam unsupported.   The decomp pin , when retracted or sitting flat, it a little below the surface of the base circle .   So ... a few thousandths of and inch is as good as mile here.  The wheel is still partially unsupported.  So one can rig that thing up in any way they want to lie flat... it is still below the surface of the base circle.   Many people have just removed that mechanism all together, instead of leaving little unnecessary parts laying about inside that motor  without problems.   I usually weld up the trench to support the wheel better and grind it to match the base circle.   BUT ... there is very little spring pressure going on when the lifter is on the base circle of the Cam , so I don't think it is too much of a problem just removing it and leaving the trench open.   I ran a motor that way for a few K miles and it wasn't an issue .   But I'm picky and don't like the idea of a void in that base circle. 

The decompressor on my B5 works most of the time, but there are periods of up to a week where it seems to stick and not decompress.  During those times even rolling the bike down a hill and dropping the clutch in second just locks up the rear wheel

As far as kick starting when the decompressor is working, its pretty much fires first kick every time on a new clean spark plug and pretty much never kick starts after a week or two around town when the plug has fouled up a bit from the over rich mixture at slow speeds.

   Or you mean it decompresses TOO much maybe  during those periods !?     If it sticks... or is activated too much you will loose compression, and the bike will be difficult to start because of low  compression .   If it does nothing and does not de-compress , the bike will be slightly harder to kick start.   On a stock bike without a decompressor , cylinder pressure is about 160-170 PSI ,  with the decompressor installed  it is about 130-140  psi generally and depending on how it wants to act up at the time ?  Well  below 100 psi when the lifters pump !   Try starting it then .    But certainly no problem to kick start without it.   Unless there is weight or technique issue ?    This is not a double lunged big CC'ed  high compression Harley we are try to kick over here.. 

[GlennF]

   Or you mean it decompresses TOO much maybe  during those periods !?     If it sticks... or is activated too much you will loose compression, and the bike will be difficult to start because of low  compression .   If it does nothing and does not de-compress , the bike will be slightly harder to kick start.   On a stock bike without a decompressor , cylinder pressure is about 160-170 PSI ,  with the decompressor installed  it is about 130-140  psi generally and depending on how it wants to act up at the time ?  Well  below 100 psi when the lifters pump !   Try starting it then .    But certainly no problem to kick start without it.   Unless there is weight or technique issue ?    This is not a double lunged big CC'ed  high compression Harley we are try to kick over here.. 

No, when it is playing up you can put full weight on the kickstarter and it barely moves and the bike locks the rear wheel when dropping the clutch in 2nd gear on a 20 kph (12 mph) bump start. It still starts fine with the electric start though.  Maybe its something odd with the lifters or sprag clutch?  No idea.

[tooseevee]

   But certainly no problem to kick start without it.   Unless there is weight or technique issue ?    This is not a double lunged big CC'ed  high compression Harley we are try to kick over here.. 

       I've got a lot of experience kick starting harleys and never had any trouble kick starting them and I weighed 140 to 150 most of my life and never had one with an electric start.

       My AVL was way harder to learn how to properly kick start than any harley I ever had.

        I could kick start my last shovel in 3 kicks in the middle of the winter with no problem and I weighed 130 pounds the last winter I had it (74 inch shovel).

        If a person can stand on their kicker it's just compression is all. You just have to nudge it a little and then just kick the damn thing through all the way as far forward as you can.

          I'm glad I have my carburetor AVL instead of the fancy shmantzy EFI UCE with its magic decompressor. What a PITA  I've removed ALL of the "decompressor" components on the AVL and it kick starts just fine. Also, since the switch to the Champion plug, I never get a kickback shutting it down with the key (no, I can't explain it). The one and only thing that the AVL decompressor did well was avoiding kickbacks on shut down.

[gashousegorilla]

No, when it is playing up you can put full weight on the kickstarter and it barely moves and the bike locks the rear wheel when dropping the clutch in 2nd gear on a 20 kph (12 mph) bump start. It still starts fine with the electric start though.  Maybe its something odd with the lifters or sprag clutch?  No idea.

  No...  That does not really sound like it is playing up ?    Your rear wheel is locking up , because you let the clutch go and the bike didn't start .   Your in gear ... sounds normal to me .   Your Push start didn't work .   Try a higher gear when and if you have to push start it , and as it starts pull the clutch back in, rev the throttle and shift to neutral.    I don't know WHY you would need to push start that thing though ?   Unless you have a weak battery or an ignition problem and etc. ?     The way I kick start a UCE ... with a decomp or without one, is to just crank that kick starter until I feel resistance, and then just give it a good swat.  And it usually goes on the first kick.   VERY easy.   No by-starter ... no throttle  and etc.  Just key on and starter set to the run position.   No this and that about bringing it up to TDC,  so you can stand on the damn thing at TDC with all the compression built up and waiting for it to bleed past the rings and etc..    Just crank ... feel resistance... and a good full swat.   The ECU takes care of retarding the timing and giving it fuel and spark .  The ECU KNOW's  what the RPM's are when you are kicking it over .  It is or should be very easy for you to kick start.

[gashousegorilla]

       I've got a lot of experience kick starting harleys and never had any trouble kick starting them and I weighed 140 to 150 most of my life and never had one with an electric start.

       My AVL was way harder to learn how to properly kick start than any harley I ever had.

        I could kick start my last shovel in 3 kicks in the middle of the winter with no problem and I weighed 130 pounds the last winter I had it (74 inch shovel).

        If a person can stand on their kicker it's just compression is all. You just have to nudge it a little and then just kick the damn thing through all the way as far forward as you can.

          I'm glad I have my carburetor AVL instead of the fancy shmantzy EFI UCE with its magic decompressor. What a PITA  I've removed ALL of "decompressor" components on the AVL and it kick starts just fine. Also, since the switch to the Champion plug, I never get a kickback shutting it down with the key. The one and only thing that the AVL decompressor did well was avoiding kickbacks on shut down.

  I hear ya tooseevee.   But this is a different animal then your Harley or AVL..... Or any old  Triumph or BSA for that Matter.    The ECU actually make the UCE' s kick star easier.    It simulates what we would have done with a carb.    When you turn the key on and then set the kill switch to run you hear the fuel pump come on for few second .... That is the pump priming up and firing a shot of fuel in to the chamber.   Remember tickling the Carbs ?       The ECU does that for you.    And as you start to rotate the crank over , it is reading rpm's  and retarding as needed and bringing the fuel pump on as needed.   EASY as could be.     Like I said , it usually goes in one swat.

  And I agree....  all he is feeling is the piston at the top of the compression stroke and he has got a good seal.  That actually is telling me that his decomp and lifter missed the mark !   And didn't do crap .  He still has good compression.    But he does not NEED to bring it up to TDC on the compression stroke , then force it past  and  THEM give it a swat...  Just crank until resistance is felt and give it a good hit.  BOOM ... it should pop to life.

  No boo shit here tooseevee.   I can honestly tell you that by a long shot , these UCE's are the easiest bikes I have ever kick started .   Almost TOO easy.   Decomp or no Decomp.   And the EFI system plays a big roll I think .  You should give one a try ... 

[GlennF]

  I don't know WHY you would need to push start that thing though ?   

Rolling quietly down the drive and bump starting when I reach the road avoids waking the neighbours if I am leaving for work early. One less electric start a day cannot hurt in terms of sprag and battery longevity either.  The only downside is the bike does not get a chance to warm up much before it hits the traffic.

[gashousegorilla]

Rolling quietly down the drive and bump starting when I reach the road avoids waking the neighbours if I am leaving for work early. One less electric start a day cannot hurt in terms of sprag and battery longevity either.  The only downside is the bike does not get a chance to warm up much before it hits the traffic.

  OH !  Sorry ... I got ya.      Try a higher gear .. 3rd or 4th.    Should go easier for you...

[tooseevee]

  I hear ya tooseevee.   But this is a different animal then your Harley or AVL.....these UCE's are the easiest bikes I have ever kick started .   Almost TOO easy.   Decomp or no Decomp.   And the EFI system plays a big roll I think .  You should give one a try ...

      Nah. Wouldn't be worth it. I've put way too much B, S and Ts into the '08. It's exactly what I want at this point. I know it inside and out. Learn another bike now all over again at almost 82? Nah. I don't think so. I'm lucky to still be able to blast off down the road for 10 or 12 miles once in a while when things are just right and the black bitch is running sooo well it's just amazing. I'm very happy with the AVL and I've learned so much.

[Enfield Pro]

That's right Tooseevee stand firm! #AVLNation I've talked to a lot of gents that believe the AVL is the forgotten masterpiece.