Unofficial Royal Enfield Community Forum

General Discussion => Tech Tips => Topic started by: wernwilk on January 31, 2013, 07:57:38 am

Title: Clutch basket advice on bullet 500
Post by: wernwilk on January 31, 2013, 07:57:38 am
Hi all,

I have been on here with various topics before but wanted to start a new thread so as not too confuse anyone.

I am in the midst of finishing off an engine rebuild on a 2003 bullet 500 for a friend.. I have an issue with the clutch basket where upon refitting and tightening if it seems to could the casing behind it.
The nut shows signs of abuse in the past as it's bowed out on the back side where it looks like an impact wrench may have been used before.

Am I correct in thinking that the basket sits on the raised splines at the case end of the shaft...it does look like there is a grove on the shaft where a circlip
Or other may sit, however I did not see one when disassembling the clutch and cannot make one out in the diagram in the service manual.

Any ideas or advice please?

Thanks.
Title: Re: Clutch basket advice on bullet 500
Post by: ERC on January 31, 2013, 04:18:03 pm
There is a circlip on there.  ERC
Title: Re: Clutch basket advice on bullet 500
Post by: mrunderhill1975a on January 31, 2013, 05:31:52 pm
The hitchcocks site has a diagram which I have pasted below.  Clip labled #9  holds the basket to back plate. Or labled #13 on the second attachment.
Title: Re: Clutch basket advice on bullet 500
Post by: wernwilk on January 31, 2013, 09:21:23 pm
Gents,

sorry but i may have confused you on my initial post.

I have the large circlip that holds the basket on the shaft...what i was wondering if there is a clip BEHIND the basket on the shaft that stops the basket sliding back too far and fouling the case with the back of the basket....looking at the diagrams there does not seem so.

The basket shows evidence of abuse, the lock nut being damaged and also the splines a little rounded off at the back of the basket where they are supposed to act as a stop to prevent the basket sliding too far back on the shaft.

does this make sense....?  if so does that mean my basket may need replacing?

Thanks again.
Title: Re: Clutch basket advice on bullet 500
Post by: baird4444 on January 31, 2013, 11:19:48 pm
I believe the basket rests on a taper, friction fit. That is why it can be difficult
to remove needing a puller. Also, when you re-assemble you may want to put an
old socket over the shaft and give it a rap with a BFH to set it on the taper. If you
don't; the first time you pull the clutch handle after re-assembly and adjusting, you
may actually seat it on the taper with the clutch pull and then have to re-adjust again.
ask me how I know....   - Mike
Title: Re: Clutch basket advice on bullet 500
Post by: mrunderhill1975a on January 31, 2013, 11:49:38 pm
Mike is correct, no clip back of the clutch centre, just friction fit along the splines.
Title: Re: Clutch basket advice on bullet 500
Post by: wernwilk on February 01, 2013, 02:24:41 am
Ok so it would seem that if the basket is fouling on the case it is too far onto the shaft....my guess from the abused and looking at the basket splines someone had impact wrenched the basket on at some point and damaged the splines to the point they no longer stop where they are supposed too.

So it would seem I may need a new basket...any suggestions guys?
Title: Re: Clutch basket advice on bullet 500
Post by: baird4444 on February 01, 2013, 04:20:51 am
fouling on the case....
    is it rubbing 360 degrees or just the top or bottom?  What I'm wondering is if the
inner case is properly seated which could cause the basket to rub at the
 top or bottom, most likely the top, if the bottom you would see it....

   just thinking out loud, never overlook the obvious and start with the simple...
                 - Mike
                     
Title: Re: Clutch basket advice on bullet 500
Post by: mrunderhill1975a on February 01, 2013, 04:25:26 am
Is the mainshaft knackerd in any way or is damage confined to the clutch center?  Hopefully the mainshaft is not damaged,or you will need a new mainshaft which would require dismantling of the gearbox.
Title: Re: Clutch basket advice on bullet 500
Post by: wernwilk on February 01, 2013, 08:57:02 pm
I am 99% certain the case is seated correctly but will check again.

The main shaft looks good but the basket has some damage with the splines rounded off as if they have been forced back against the splines on the shaft....(impact wrench or over zealous tightening perhaps)?

Where would I find a basket if that is in fact what is needed?
Title: Re: Clutch basket advice on bullet 500
Post by: RGT on February 02, 2013, 09:16:13 am
http://nfieldgear.com/enfield-store/miracle-clutch.html I used one of these and would do it again. It was a big improvement over the stock manufactured item.
Title: Re: Clutch basket advice on bullet 500
Post by: baird4444 on February 02, 2013, 02:44:06 pm
there is always Bulletwala

http://www.bonanza.com/listings/ROYAL-ENFIELD-500cc-CLUTCH-CENTRE-ASSEMBLY-144496-NEW/16670408

there will be those who will tell you that you've got have the blue printed clutch,
and aftermarket plates....    the Bullet clutch is only as good as it is adjusted and
many never even did the adjustment on the rh side. These things are just 1 notch
better than a lawnmower, very low tech to the point that chain adjustment can
affect the way a bike shifts. I think of them like the old David Bradley walking
tractors,2 wheels, simple, and utilitarian....   - Mike
Title: Re: Clutch basket advice on bullet 500
Post by: wernwilk on February 03, 2013, 02:34:54 am
I took the primary case off again to have a look, I wanted to see if anything was preventing the case seating properly.

I thought I had found the cause as part of the gear shift linkage was rubbing on the case and when i tightened the foot-peg holder/gear linkage it cleared...however when i put the case back on there is still a little rocking in the case...when I tighten the 3 allen bolts around the main bearings that hold the case on it seems to kick the opposite end around the shaft out enough to foul the basket.

Also when i push the basket onto the shaft it spins fine, however when i tighten the basket center nut up it fouls on the case again..

has anyone seem a warped primary case like this before....I think the slight warping and the wear on the basket stop splines may be enough to make it foul.

what i do not want to do is purchase a new basket only to find the same problem.

any more ideas etc??
Title: Re: Clutch basket advice on bullet 500
Post by: baird4444 on February 03, 2013, 04:59:44 am
are you putting the gasket in tween the 2 cases at the crankshaft location
with the 3 allen screws? It wouldn't take much thickness there to allow
the case to set farther back and not foul the basket.
            - mike
Title: Re: Clutch basket advice on bullet 500
Post by: wernwilk on February 04, 2013, 06:51:46 pm
I am indeed putting the gasket at the 3 allen screws....i wonder if I fabricated another would it be enough to allow the clearance needed?
I don't see how this would cause any problems??

anyone have any input on this?
Title: Re: Clutch basket advice on bullet 500
Post by: wernwilk on February 04, 2013, 06:54:21 pm
Just realised on writing this that another gasket would make the problem worse.....darn...if I were to do away with the gasket would there be any problems.....would this allow the oil to escape at the case around the crankshaft?
Title: Re: Clutch basket advice on bullet 500
Post by: baird4444 on February 04, 2013, 07:11:11 pm
the gasket is just paper thin....  a thin layer of the rtv should work as well.
I was thinking that no gasket would pull the case closer possibly swinging
the lh clutch side out just a little to foul in the basket.
   in looking back at some pics, is the seal for the rear shaft mounted on
the inside with the nuts on the backside??
      I'm guessing here....
Title: Re: Clutch basket advice on bullet 500
Post by: wernwilk on February 04, 2013, 08:22:30 pm
OOOPs, just realized that if i added another gasket it would make the problem worse....what would be the downside to not having the gasket there at all?

Is it for anything other than dirt and grime?  Does it act to stop leaking oil from the primary case at all?
Title: Re: Clutch basket advice on bullet 500
Post by: wernwilk on February 04, 2013, 09:52:38 pm
yes exactly, the seal is mounted with bolts as shown in your picture....I will try and dry fit without the gasket to see if this stops the fouling....if it does i could use the rtv in place of the gasket.
I will report back.
(sorry i posted twice on this before, my internet went down and i thought it had not gone through the first time).

Thanks.
Title: Re: Clutch basket advice on bullet 500
Post by: wernwilk on February 05, 2013, 06:44:38 am
I tried the case without the gasket, and although it's much better with the case sitting a lot flusher with the crankcase behind, I am still getting the basket rubbing the seal mounting bolts behind.

It's ok until I finally tighten the basket down using a bar and clutch basket holding nut.

I cannot see what else to do here but buy a new basket and try it.....unless any one else has any more thoughts?
Title: Re: Clutch basket advice on bullet 500
Post by: baird4444 on February 05, 2013, 07:34:51 am
well if it's just rubbing on the heads of those mounting bolts; I wouldn't be
opposed to grinding about 1/2 the thickness of those heads off. Hell, all they hold
is that seal's mounting plate- it's not like you're going to twist the head off...
    there I go again, thinking outloud....
Title: Re: Clutch basket advice on bullet 500
Post by: RGT on February 05, 2013, 02:47:24 pm
are those bolt heads 1/2 height to begin with with no washers under them? I am trying to remember from when I took mine apart and put it back together but can't seem to locate the pic's I took....
Title: Re: Clutch basket advice on bullet 500
Post by: wernwilk on February 05, 2013, 07:26:57 pm
Yes they are at most 1/2 thickness heads....no washers I believe either....it must be pretty close in there as its free as a bird when snugged up but once a decent amount of torque is applied to the center nut it starts to catch.......so close to being ok yet so annoying.
Title: Re: Clutch basket advice on bullet 500
Post by: Blltrdr on February 05, 2013, 10:53:07 pm
It doesn't make much sense. The center hub must be seated further back on the spline than it was designed to go. So installing my spare center hub and basket on my spare gear box in the garage I see that when fully seated the front face of the hub is flush with the end of the spline where the threads meet the spline. If your hub sits further back and the splines protrude then I would think your problem is the hub. If it does fit flush then your problem would probably be the fitment of the inner case. Like I stated, this doesn't make much sense. It might if the original hub was replaced with a factory second or some hub that is not genuine RE.

I'm sure you will figure this out quickly and remedy the situation.
Good Luck.

Brad
Title: Re: Clutch basket advice on bullet 500
Post by: wernwilk on February 06, 2013, 12:49:55 am


yup the basket sits a little back from flush which led me to believe someone has abused it in the past...from looking at the basket and center nut it looks like an impact driver has been used and as a result has damaged the inner splines on the basket that act as a stop when the basket is fully seated on the shaft...
Title: Re: Clutch basket advice on bullet 500
Post by: cafeman on February 06, 2013, 02:56:48 pm
I just had my clutch apart to replace the primary chain and noticed the seal retainer bolts have thin heads. From what your describing, like others have stated, it sounds like the splines on the backside of the hub have been almost "swagged" or deformed so that the hub now goes further onto the shaft than it's supposed to. Maybe some creative machinist could come up with some sort of spacer to fit on the shaft, properly positioning the hub as well as not fouling the seal...but I'd think sourcing another hub would be the best bet, and not too expensive.
Title: Re: Clutch basket advice on bullet 500
Post by: RGT on February 06, 2013, 05:45:31 pm
I might be tempted to flip it over and  center punch the center of the male spline feature to expand it a little, thus closing the female spline feature a bit, it won't take much so go gently and check the results often...you could also try a little on the circumference of the female spline feature...
Title: Re: Clutch basket advice on bullet 500
Post by: wernwilk on February 07, 2013, 05:51:45 pm
Ok so an update.

I took the bolts out for the main shaft seal mountung plate and gently took a few mm of each..it rally didnt take much but bingo, once the basket was correctly tightened down there was clearance..so one problem down.

On reassembly I was tightening the primary chain tensioner mounting bolt when....ping, out came the threads from the case!!!

I honestly have to laugh as otherwise I would cry....if its not one thing its another.

So, my next question......does anyone think I could helicoil this hole succesfully....has anyone had to do this before...
I do not have a helicoil kit as present but would buy a good one for such emergencies....would anyone have any recommendations?

Title: Re: Clutch basket advice on bullet 500
Post by: baird4444 on February 09, 2013, 03:35:13 pm
Ok so an update.
I took the bolts out for the main shaft seal mountung plate and gently took a few mm of each..it rally didnt take much but bingo, once the basket was correctly tightened down there was clearance..so one problem down.
On reassembly I was tightening the primary chain tensioner mounting bolt when....ping, out came the threads from the case!!!
I honestly have to laugh as otherwise I would cry....if its not one thing its another.
So, my next question......does anyone think I could helicoil this hole succesfully....has anyone had to do this before...
I do not have a helicoil kit as present but would buy a good one for such emergencies....would anyone have any recommendations?

  it's official, you are now An Enfield Mechanic!!
     trying to remember...   that bolt is in the black "slipper" that slides off that bolt, right?
seems like it would be easy to remove and either retap to the next size OR cleanup
real well and use one of the aftermarket "formathread" products.
 this bolt just sits there...  I would put a lock washer tween the locknut and tensioner.
   I have also heard of a few cobbing up a spring tensioner using a valve spring, maybe
doing away with the needs of good threads....
        - Mike
Title: Re: Clutch basket advice on bullet 500
Post by: Ragmas on February 09, 2013, 11:07:57 pm
Why hasn't anybody gotten a hold of the new UCE tensioner and tried to fab a mount for it in the older style engine?

Samgar
Title: Re: Clutch basket advice on bullet 500
Post by: wernwilk on February 11, 2013, 06:20:47 pm
Ha ha ha.....yes I truly feel inducted into the club now!

I will try and re-thread this one a size up...I will need to find a stud to fit the slipper guide and the thread but I am sure there is something out there.

Watch this space and thanks again.