[ddavidv]

There will be a bizarre story that comes with this bike. It is currently in transit to me as sort of a quasi-consignment sale. It was built/customized in India and then shipped to the US by the current owner. I've been tasked with fixing the clutch and shifter among other things.
Anyone have an educated opinion of what I'm looking at? Probably be a week until it shows up here.

I'm sure it/I will provide massive entertainment.

[Seipgam]

Apart from the Cafe bits, looks pretty much standard Indian Enfield to me.
Once you get a frame number you will be able to narrow it down.

[Bilgemaster]

That's a real pretty bike. It may not have farkley aluminum rims and what not, or break the sound barrier, but I think when riders of other so-called "café racers" hove into view, they'll invariably wish theirs looked more like that. Those rearsets just holler "fun on the twisties".

[ace.cafe]

It has a styling kit on it which was once called the Clubman kit by Watsonian Squire. The rearsets also included in the kit.
Early model 4-speed Albion gearbox. Looks like a 1-down, 3-up shifter, unless they internally changed it.
From the photo angle it is hard to tell, but I think it has a timing cover from a 500 on it.

[ddavidv]

The shift linkage looks diabolical and is one of the problems with it. 'Bob' (who is not my uncle, LOL) the owner says it comes with the standard bits should the rearsets prove impossible but I think this needs to have them to complete the look. I'm not a fan of the cafe style myself as I find them tremendously uncomfortable to contort into position to ride. The nice thing about that is I won't be tempted (much) to keep this for myself!
Reportedly it was 'built to order' for him so the frame is one number from a pile and the engine another.
It got picked up in Dallas yesterday so will be trundling toward my PA home hopefully in a few days.

[mrunderhill1975a]

The front brake looks like a 50's style single lead shoe arrangement.

[ddavidv]

That's what I thought.
It's supposed to arrive this weekend. I'll know more then. Stored with no gas in it thank goodness. Owner says it's really the shift linkage that needs fixing and that it ran really well. He stopped somewhere on a ride with it and couldn't get it into gear when he wanted to leave. Goes into gear but not with the foot control.

[Adrian II]

That front brake is a definite upgrade candidate if you get the gear selection sorted.

I fail to see the point of a 350 cafe racer with a stock engine. A Fireball-tuned 500, yes...

Couldn't see the picture in Firefox,by the way, I had to view the page in a different browser.

[Jon]

That front brake looks like the one that was standard on early Indian 350s imported to the UK I think twas the same one fitted to the Indian made Villiers powered Crusader 175. As I recall they were air brakes you squeezed the lever and listened to the wind. The 350 can be made to go quite fast by classic standards but is more suited to Indian and British roads than American conditions. In stock form the 350 is not much slower than the 500, is smoother and easer to start. Historically 350s sold better than 500s as they were cheaper to insure and run and the fast lads were all buying parallel twins except for the canny souls who bought Velocette singles.

[ddavidv]

As I recall they were air brakes you squeezed the lever and listened to the wind.

Quoted for awesomeness. 
It should arrive today or tomorrow. Owner leads me to believe the frame is actually from the 1970s or maybe earlier. Engine isn't matching. I'm eager to check the numbers on it.

[ddavidv]

Oh brother...
So my friend Bob had done a tour in India several years ago on a Bullet. So enamored was he that he had this bike put together in India and then shipped it to his residence here in the US. While I have a stack of paperwork for it for the actual shipment there is nothing at all useful for registering it. Bob is not vehicle savvy and it never occurred to him he'd have to get a title.
Well, there are ways around that of course but...I can't find a S/N stamped on the frame anywhere at the front!
The engine cases were polished and the numbers are difficult to make out. Below is what I think I see:
121609 (unsure about the last digit)
3609 3HX (not sure about that 9 either)
under the barrel:
55492X

I tried looking on Hitchcocks web site but couldn't find the S/N info if they have it posted there.
If I can't find some sort of S/N it will make a lovely piece of sculpture I suppose. 
Battery is flat, it's dirty, right rear peg looks to be bent which is probably why the shifter doesn't work properly. He also claimed the clutch doesn't work somehow.
The odo shows 183 miles which is probably accurate.

[cyrusb]

Ah, I believe there was a warning about this posted many times in the past. " Do not self import Indian built bastard bikes to the U.S". Or something to that effect. But what you do have is a good sized lump of salable parts.  Who knows, you may be the one to pull it off. Good Luck.

[ddavidv]

Ah-HA!
I took the paint of the right side headstock thinking maybe the VIN had been painted over. Nope. Well, crap...how is it possible there is no VIN on the headstock?
I looked on the left side and could sort-of see something. So I took the paint off that side.
121609 3HX
Only challenge now is dating it.
Look above at the engine stamping numbers...121609!
So they match. But how do I date it? According to my Essential Guide somewhere in the mix should be a 'B' for Bullet. I don't see anything that looks like a B in any of the numbers.

[cyrusb]

I believe if that frame does not have a riveted on I.D plate with serial numbers on the right side of the down tube and legible numbers on the left engine case it will be a crap shoot trying to register it. Since 2007 I have seen many attempts, even bringing them in as parts but no successes. Anybody know of one?

[ddavidv]

Vermont registration. 

[cyrusb]

Sounds great, don't hold back on the details when you get it done. There are plenty of basket cases out there dying to register. Maybe even write a book on it 

[ddavidv]

Well...I'll be dipped!
I asked Bob what year he thought it was and he pointed me to the build thread while it was in India: https://advrider.com/f/threads/1972-royal-enfield-cafe-racer-project.514041/

[ace.cafe]

There were many self-imported Bullets brought into the US using the antique provision for importing. Most were modern Bullets with paperwork from the 1970s.

The main thing is that it is now here, and got thru customs. That is the main thing.
Now you just have to get some state to issue a title, and then re-register in your own state.
Could be a headache, but I think it can be done.

[charte]

My 2 are fully titled and registered.  Not without lots of effort though.  I had no idea what I was getting into, but I got it done.  Funny, that last sentence pretty much describes my life.

[ddavidv]

Does anyone have a trick to getting the foot peg rubbers off without cutting them? The rearset is a actually made from a heated and bent rear peg holder. It is bent, jamming the linkage rod against the trans so it won't shift. I'll need to heat it up and bend it back but want to save the rubber so it has to come off first.

[Adrian II]

Try heating them up, either boiling water or a hot-air gun (perhaps a hairdryer!).

A.

[Paul W]

I think boiling them in water is the best option. If you try with a heat gun there’s a chance the outside will be crispy before the inside is hot enough.

[Seipgam]

This mob in the U.K. can date your Enfield (British or Indian) -  www.royalenfields.com
On the front page is a banner titled "How Old Is My Royal Enfield" with and email address to contact.
They confirmed my "1970" Bullet as 1995.

Cheers.

[ddavidv]

The first video in what I hope to be a series. If you don't want to listen to my ramblings zip ahead to about the halfway mark to where I show the carb. I'd like experienced opinions on the condition of the slide.
https://youtu.be/tAlvw09ubEg

[Adrian II]

Spaco carburettors!

https://spaco.co.in/carburettor.php

You might want to consider a carb upgrade though, plenty of options.

A.

[charte]

With the warning that I'm an annoying half-full type guy, I think she looks cool!  I guess it's hard to evaluate whether it's worth fixing until you get to the bottom of what's wrong and what the effort/cost is to get it going.

But, it looks cool and I can imagine a blast to ride with those rear controls.

Nice vid man.

[ddavidv]

I'm skeptical about the carb. Plug is pretty sooty. But I am also reluctant to change anything before trying to fire it because it did run.

The cafe thing isn't my style but it is a pretty cool bike. If it were mine (and it could be though I don't really want TWO IB's) I'd change a couple things like the speedo; the one in it looks too modern. The original owner had wanted to put a Smiths type in it but was put off by the cost. He also wanted to put a bomber nose art girl on the gas tank which I actually could see being cool but it has the decals on it now.

The conundrum is how much money to I/we spend on it vs what it may bring in a sale. Plus I'm still navigating the thorny issue of the paperwork which is a real deterrent to investing much in it.

[Adrian II]

Oh well, just give that Spaco a fanatical clean as shown elsewhere and see if you can sort it well enough to run normally. A patch of worn off green stuff on the slide won't be enough to stop it running, you can think about upgrades once you have a title under your belt.

A.

[blasphemous]

Why is it a PIA to get a bike titled, what are the complexities?

[Bilgemaster]

Why is it a PIA to get a bike titled, what are the complexities?

"Grey Market", or illegally/privately imported vehicles, do not conform to U.S. Department of Transportation or Environmental Protection Agency standards, making them impossible or at least very difficult to register for on road use. One exception is antique vehicles, or at least those purporting to be so, which explains why this 1995 Bullet in question is pretending to be a model from the '70s.

Frankly, if this bike had no stateside title yet, I wouldn't sink another nickel into it until it did. One possible workaround is the "Vermont Title Gambit" already alluded to in this thread and described here: http://www.chinonthetank.com/2014/04/get-a-title-with-a-vermont-registration/ . It can also useful in situations where a vehicle is sold with a Bill of Sale only.

[Adrian II]

Meanwhile, title or no title, here's a ¼" BSP petcock/fuel tap WITH reserve.



https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/NEW-TRIUMPH-NORTON-AJS-BSA-FUEL-TAP-WITH-RESERVE-1-4-FUEL-PETCOCK-PETROL/392354516108

A.

[ddavidv]

I'm currently corresponding with that chap in the UK trying to pin down it's actual age. The builder stated it is a 1972 but at present it's just heresay.
I'm hopeful the Vermont registration solution will work. If not...well, that's more the current owner's problem than mine but I'm the sap tasked with selling it. 
I don't think the carb is that bad now that I have it apart. At this point the most expensive thing it will need is a battery. I know it can be started without a functioning battery but will it start with NO battery in the circuit?

[charte]

I'll chime in since I've done this twice, legally, I promise (I would be a bad criminal if I posted my actions on line!).

The challenge with getting a title, and the key to this all, is having the proper legal paperwork from India, and an official translation of the India title.

I am in Virginia, so this is how it worked here.  Virginia DMV has a process for importing vehicles and they are absolutely clear what documentation you need.  There is no creativity.  You have to read everything and then make sure you gather everything they require.  If you can't, to Bilge's point, you won't get it done.  But, it's not that hard.

The part that was most challenging is that you must supply the original and legal title from India (in addition to import papers mentioned above).  And guess what, it's in Hindi with some English.  I thought it would be clear enough, but the people at the DMV were not happy that they couldn't read everything and wanted a translation.  So, after some time, I translated it with Google and some help from friends.  After waiting in line for hours, they bounced me out again stating that I can't just translate my own documents, I needed a legal translation either from the India Embassy in the US (or consulate), or from an official US registered translation company.

I lost a lot of time in all these loops.  But, I chose the latter, and got a US company to translate it, notarized, etc.  My idea was that it might look good to have a US company corroborate my India sourced documentation.

However, despite the title issue, I was able to register the bikes right away.  So, I had plates, was street legal, I just didn't have titles.

Then, going back to the DMV with my official translation, the person I got after 3 hours in line still had no idea what to do with all this stuff.  She called over the manager.  The manager was unsure too.  However, to her credit, she said that they don't do this much, so they are unsure of the process and if my documentation was sufficient, but if I left all my documentation with her, she would "call it in" to HQ.

I got a call a week later stating that all was in order, and to come back.

After another 3 hour wait, I got to the desk, and once again the clerk had no idea what to do with my case. BUT!  Virginia DMV must have great software because he looked up my account, and there were clear notes and instructions from HQ and the manager about my case, that I was approved, with directions of what to do.  I then had to fill out two more forms, and I was done. 

Go Virginia DMV!

So, I learned many lessons. 1) There are no shortcuts, you have to research the requirements of your DMV to import a vehicle, and get all the documentation or you get stopped there, 2) Get an official translation of anything not in English, and 3) you need to have patience with your DMV because they don't do this often, and it takes them some time to work on it too.  If you're a jerk and get huffy with them, you'll never get through it.  If you ask them for help kindly and sympathize that you just walked in with a weird case and a ton of work that they have probably never done, you'll find they are great people and just want to help.

[blasphemous]

That sounds like a lot of hoops, glad you were able to get it done.

[Bilgemaster]

As a fellow dweller of the Commonwealth I'd agree that while some Virginia DMVs may be fine, others, like my local one in Woodbridge, are like a trip back in time to East Germany, yet staffed for some reason primarily by scarcely comprehensible former Islanders from the West Indies all trilling away merrily in a variety of sing-songy near-impenetrable Creoles. Dealing with them is like being trapped in a game of Jeopardy! being played in Bob Marley's subconscious. And why oh why must every jamoke registering his "new" rustbucket work van bring along the entire squalling clan to witness the title transfer? You're not graduating Summa Cum Whatever, dude. This ain't a "teachable experience." So leave the infants and rampaging toddlers at home, OK? Seriously...I can barely hear the numbers being droned out by Clara the Autobot over your howling crotchfruit as your wildling four year old once again trips over my foot while rushing by for the eleventh time as I begin to ponder just how far I might be able to jam this red plastic DMV Now! pen into his ear hole with a good wind up.

There was a website that tracked wait times for various tasks at Virginia's different DMVs. It seems to be down for the duration of the Kung Flu closure, but last I checked it clearly indicated that it might well be worth my while to drive out to some more rural office out in Warrenton or Stafford. No matter what day or time of day, the Woodbridge one is always like a guaranteed 3 hour holdover in the San Salvador Central Bus Depot on Mother's Day. Bring your earplugs.

[ddavidv]

What a glorious read Bilgemaster. 

Got the linkage for the rearset straightened by a friend and is back on. Gear engagement seems...random with it on the center stand and not running. If I spin the rear wheel and try gear changes they go much better. Normal for an Albion?

I have the carb soaking and will give it a go after a good spritzing with flammable fluids. I have yet to buy an ultrasound cleaner but I don't think this one is that bad, just a bit of varnish in the bottom of the bowl itself. I may try firing it over the weekend.

[cyrusb]

You are aware that shifting a non running bike can bend a shift fork, right? Turning the rear wheel enables the dogs to engage properly.

[ddavidv]

Never heard that.
I was shifting by hand so it wasn't forceful.

[cyrusb]

You can actually feel the dogs engage when you joggle the rear wheel.  When everything is turning/shaking/vibrating it helps a lot.

[Paul W]

On these bikes, nothing works unless there's enough vibration. If there's too much vibration, things break or fall off.

The trick is getting the level of vibration exactly correct.

[charte]

Bilge, you kill me man ;-)  I think you moonlight here from your job as writer at SNL.

Looks like we are neighbors.  I'm on the Annandale/Fairfax border.  You painted a pretty accurate depiction of the DMV here.  I go to the one in Fair Oaks....not too different from what you describe, but better.  The worst one in my experience is Springfield.

Note in my story I'm basically 3 hours in with every visit.  So I probably have 15 hours of DMV waiting into getting the titles.  But, I got it done, and if I did it again, I'd be able to cut that way down.

I'm going to take the 69 out Sunday to ride the old Rolling Thunder route, or at least to the Pentagon.  My buddy is going to ride the 63.  If you're out as well, maybe see you.

[Bilgemaster]

I'm not a vet, nor a huge fan of Harleys, the predominant marque by far of the gathering, so have never done the Rolling Thunder thing. I don't dislike Harleys--just never been particularly drawn to them. Having worked near the Mall, of course I've SEEN the Rolling Thunder folks many times. I was not aware there was a specific route TO the Pentagon. In fact, I'd always thought that was the staging area where the whole procession into town and past the memorials began.

If you're just up in Annandale, and have not checked it out already, you might really enjoy swinging by that Bikes & Breakfast gathering normally held on the 2nd Sunday of each month in beautiful little Clifton, VA, though it's obviously been on hold lately on account of the Kung Flu. Once it resumes, and maybe even if it doesn't "officially" for June and so forth, you'll likely catch me there. I scarcely ever miss it. I reckon it might be only 30 minutes from Annandale: just a quick clip down Braddock Road to 645 and then a straight shot right into Clifton. For further details see: http://www.bikesandbreakfast.com/ .

[ddavidv]

We have a similar thing by me in Ephrata, PA at the VFW first Sunday of every month (Kung Flu not withstanding). We get folks from the surrounding states. 85% Hardley-Movingsons but lots of other neat stuff. My Bullet gets lots of attention. I'm hoping to get the cafe running and over there in 2 weeks though may require 'borrowing' a license plate from mine.

[ddavidv]

Just got the letter from Graham from the UK owner's club, this one was built August 1973. So now we attempt registration.

[cyrusb]

Just got the letter from Graham from the UK owner's club, this one was built August 1973. So now we attempt registration.

So that makes it an Indian built model?

[charte]

Under the category of "this would have been great info  a year ago", Patriot Harley would stage up about 1000 bikes in Fairfax, and then we'd ride with police escort to the Pentagon.  They'd shut down I66 for us!  It was amazing.  Then we'd queue at the Pentagon for the full ride at the Mall.

I am not Military either, but I found it a way to express my gratitude on Memorial Day weekend other than just grilling burgers (and hey, nothing wrong with grilling burgers!!!).  It was a way to show support for the Veterans (of whom I have many in my family) with a hobby I love.  I'm sorry it's over.

Clifton is a classic touch and go destination from here, and my neighbor has been to that event.  I'll maybe try in June and see if anyone is there and maybe meet you!

[charte]

David, I think that's good news because then you just need to conform to motorcycle standards of 1973, of which there we'ren't many! 

I recall studying for my bkes I I think the only thing required was a rear brake and a brake light.  Seriously. Forget about emissions.  It was a very low bar.

[ddavidv]

So that makes it an Indian built model?

Absolutely. Always knew it was though Indian owner thought it was a '72. I didn't want to title it the wrong year even though in the big picture it doesn't matter.

I did a stint with Austin Mini ownership and there was a lot of 'creativity' in titling those to bring them into the US. I prefer to have things 'proper' if possible.

[AgentX]

Sending a PM on registration experiences...

[ddavidv]

Ugh, batteries.
The battery in this thing was complete toast. The size is R12N5-3B. Though I can find a few of that size online they are fairly scarce and only come as 'empty' with no acid.
I looked up what a Bullet 500 like mine should take and found UB5LB and/or XT14L-A2.
By application Batteries Plus shows three options but the least expensive is $65 for a lead acid model! Twice what I see them elsewhere for.
I can't go bigger than the one that's in there but suppose I could go smaller?

[Bilgemaster]

With no electric start to grind over, I'd have thought most any 12v that would fit should do the trick... but I'm no expert. That superb YouTuber Mustie1 often uses old deep cycle batteries in his bike resurrections that were originally used in medical devices and exchanged after a certain period just for safety's sake, though still quite serviceable. Where he sources them I have no clue. I seem to recall he gets them for something like $5 or less a pop.

The thing about Batteries Plus is that they're great if you need something quick, but they're not exactly shy about their markup.

What are the precise dimensions of the old battery? And could we see a photo of it and maybe the battery tray just for ready reference?

[ddavidv]

The battery tray is 'standard Bullet' but since my own glorious machine was customized I don't have one to compare to. I suspect I could still borrow the AGM out of mine to use temporarily but I don't like doing things multiple times if I don't need to.

[Adrian II]

So that makes it an Indian built model?

UK Bullet production ceased in the early 1960s.

A.

[cyrusb]

Ah, it was '66. What throws me off is that Floyd Clymer was marketing them as "Indians" I think until the early 70's. I always thought those rebadged bikes came from Redditch. Anybody have the data?

[Adrian II]

I think the Redditch RE/Brockhouse Indian thing stopped around 1959, after that I think the Indian model names were briefly applied to Matchless bikes, with the Super Meteor based Chief being the last Redditch offering.

http://re-indian.com/60catalogue.html

re-indian.com also has info on the Clymer bikes, a very good site.

The final Redditch bike to bare the Bullet name was a UCE 350 based on the 250 Crusader.

A.

[charte]

David, I've been using this battery and very happy with it, also it's a bit lighter.  I have bought 4 so far (1 for each of my Bullets, one for my Triumph Rocket III, and one for a buddy).

Maybe check long term reviews, but I'm very happy with them, and they fit the Bullet perfectly (I'm assuming your battery tray is like mine.

This is the model:  BikeMaster MG5-3B TruGel Battery

[ddavidv]

Got her running. Starting is a bit chaotic as I haven't figured out the secret sequence but once she's running and warm she sets into a nice idle.

But I still have a problem. The owner told me he had trouble with the clutch. I thought he meant gear trouble because of the bent peg/shifter but that's been fixed. Nope, clutch doesn't disengage enough to put it in gear. Hold the clutch in, push on the shifter and is sounds like my dad's old non-syncro Willys Jeep. The only cable adjustment this one seems to have is in the middle of the cable; nothing at either end. Fiddled with that, all it does is move the position the lever works. Tried setting the adjustment at the trans with the screw and it seemed to be properly adjusted. I moved it a little and it feels a little different but same result.

With the primary cover off I can see the clutch discs move when I pull the lever but to me it doesn't seem like enough (and apparently isn't!). But I'm stymied about what to do next. It all used to work. Then it didn't which is why he quit riding it.

Lastly, I did take the clutch assembly apart and make sure nothing was sticking. The discs all look pretty new and were probably replaced when the bike was rebuilt.

[Paul W]

I’d take the gearbox outer cover off next to check the clutch release mechanism on that side.

Have you checked to see if the ball in between the two release pushrods is actually in place and in good condition?

Also, I’d check the release bearing at the clutch end is OK.

[ddavidv]

I’d take the gearbox outer cover off next to check the clutch release mechanism on that side.

Did that.

Have you checked to see if the ball in between the two release pushrods is actually in place and in good condition?

Didn't check that. Can it just fall out on it's own accord?

Also, I’d check the release bearing at the clutch end is OK.

Visually appears okay.

[charte]

I had a very similar problem. With the warning that this may not be a recommended solution, I was not getting enough throw either. So I popped in another quarter inch ball bearing. That did the trick and I’m off to the races. So now I have two ball bearings in there. It gave me just enough throw that everything works fine.

[Paul W]

The ball can't fall out by itself because it sits inside the mainshaft between the two pushrods. But if a previous person has worked on the bike and pulled out the pushrods the ball is easily lost, especially by someone unfamiliar with the bike.

The system is quite simple in design but from past experience, some mechanics (such as me) are even simpler. 

[charte]

Yea, maybe I should clarify my point...…….I blew up my gear box, basically had shards in there.

It's completely rebuilt, and somewhere along the way, I lost the ball.  without it, the clutch rod doesn't even extend for the clutch lever to push it.  I added 1 ball, and I didn't get enough throw.  So I added the second, and that did the trick.  There is a thread on this in the forum here, ACE even weighed in.

So I had a fundamental rebuild which is an obvious change.

It is weird that everything worked, and now it doesn't, and there are no changes.  Like Paul says, it's just 2 rods and a ball, nothing to go wrong.  I supposed these things can wear over time of course, but it doesn't seem like there are a lot of miles on the bike.

Nevertheless, if throw is the issue, I'd be tempted to add one to see if that does the trick.  If it does, I guess a) you could leave it in there like I did, but I don't know the long term consequences of that, so best to get advice, or b) you know something is wrong there and maybe take it apart and see what's up.

[Paul W]

I wouldn't want to fit "ball against ball" as it were  , they will tend to slide past each other and possibly cause a lateral wear problem. It would be better to compare the pushrods against new ones, comparing their length and replace them if necessary.

Some folk recommend cutting an existing pushrod in half, carefully cleaning off and squaring up the ends (important!) then re-hardening them by simple heat treatment. They are then re-fitted with another ball between the two halves, which makes them longer in practical terms. It takes up some wear and possibly prevents lost motion which can occur if there's internal wear in the mainshaft drilling, allowing slight bending of the original longer pushrod.

Problems can also be caused by the plates forming grooves in the slots in the clutch hub. The plates can catch against them, giving a hard or notchy action. Coupled with a stretchy cable this could be why the clutch plates don't release. 

There's a Technical Note about clutch problems in the Hitchcock's website.

 

[Bilgemaster]

Clutch plates were removed? Are you absolutely sure the "dished" plates are now oriented properly? I made that mistake at first when putting my clutch, etc. back together after removing that starter sprag business, with similar results: the clutch wouldn't engage. At first I'd thought maybe that ball between the rods had gone missing somehow, but it was in there. Neither the various service manuals nor the parts catalog I have contain particularly helpful or clear diagrams of the clutch assembly.

[ddavidv]

I put them back in the same orientation they were but I'm going to check them again to be certain.

[Bilgemaster]

For what it's worth, I once described the clutch plates and their various orientations, including excepts from Snidal's Bullet Service Manual, in this earlier posting: https://forum.classicmotorworks.com/index.php?topic=28239.msg322639#msg322639

After all, just because YOU pulled 'em out and kept 'em in the same order doesn't necessarily mean that the last guy in there put 'em in the right way, right?

[ddavidv]

Orientation of all parts is correct.
I measured the pushrod movement and it is 1/16". Sure doesn't seem like much. Can anyone confirm or deny that is correct? There is no measurement in the Snidal manual.

[Paul W]

That sounds like far too little. Ideally it should move almost the same amount as the inner cable at the lever end, given a bit of lost motion due to cable stretch. Have you checked the whole length of the cable? Are the cable ends sitting correctly in the adjusters? It might just need a new one.

The clutch release mechanism is fairly simple but there’s lots of places where lost motion can occur, it’s surely just a matter of carefully checking the whole thing downstream from the handlebar lever. I’d take the petrol tank off and examine everything in detail.

[ddavidv]

Well, this is interesting.
There are no balls in the rod linkage. Now before you say "Ah-Ha!" this is a 1973 which makes it pre-1999. The parts diagram for the earlier bikes do NOT show any balls. In fact, the rod from the clutch cable pivot is one 10" long piece and not two 5" pieces as the later bikes.
So, no balls (hahaha) is correct for this bike.

When I remove the trans cover (clutch assembled on the other side) this is how much of the rod is poking through:


I looked at some videos on YT of guys taking the trans cover off to replace kick start springs and it sure looks like that thing should poke out more.
At the clutch end there isn't really anything variable(?). The short rod and pressure plate look totally fine.

[ace.cafe]

Probably worn down.

Maybe a good idea to just buy the 2 rods and one ball set-up from a parts supplier. Very low cost items.

[Paul W]

I agree, after all it’s a very simple system. If the bike has very low mileage it’s likely that the original part was shorter than standard.

[ddavidv]

Or could I just stick a ball in between the long rod and the release rod?

[ace.cafe]

Or could I just stick a ball in between the long rod and the release rod?

If the ball will be contained inside the tunnel, that should work.
It is a 1/4" ball bearing for the 4-speed Albion box. 5mm ball bearing for the 5-speed box.
Grease it up.

[charte]

Yeah I can confirm that looks too short as well compared to mine. On my 1969 it was also that short so I put in a second ball. Though that may not be completely advised it works like a charm. The fact that you don’t have a ball ha ha and it is clearly about a quarter inch short from the oic I think you can put in a ball and see what happens. It cost me $.89. And now she runs like a champ. I also suspect that Ball provides A serious function by separating those two rods and allowing some spin.  A theory why it worked and now it doesn’t work therefore could be that the two rods were grinding on each other at the end and slowly lost mass. Then they got shorter. I think the ball is in there to prevent those two rod ends from grinding on each other.

[ace.cafe]

Sometimes, the rods will friction-weld to the ball bearing, if the clutch is held in too long at stoplights. That is why they recommend shifting into neutral at lights, instead of holding in the clutch. The ball was put there to reduce the problem from the non-ball system which were worse. The point contact of the ball in the center of the ends of the rods gave minimal friction in the system. But it still got heated with holding the clutch for too long.

We eliminated that concern by installing a ceramic ball bearing instead of a steel one. Ceramic has less friction for less heat, and it cannot weld because it is not metal. Works great!
One of our Fireball tricks.

[Paul W]

Well worth making sure there's a good amount of sticky lubricant in there. I bought a couple of large aerosol cans of "chain and gear lubricant" some time ago and it's ideal for jobs like this because it doesn't dry out or run off and is resistant to water and heat.

(I've also noticed that if you take the bike out of gear and let the clutch out it makes the traffic lights change from red to green. OK that might just be a coincidence).

[charte]

Ceramic ball.  That is awesome.  Now I have another project as I won't be able to get that out of my head!! ;-)

[ddavidv]

(I've also noticed that if you take the bike out of gear and let the clutch out it makes the traffic lights change from red to green. OK that might just be a coincidence).

Thanks for a much needed laugh on a Friday afternoon. 

[ddavidv]

Tied a ball; doesn't work. Makes everything too long and you can't put the adjustment bolt in on the trans side.

If I hold the lever in with it not running and kick it over the clutch is 'free' but it has some drag. On my 5 speed if I do this the clutch spins freely with no drag. Something is amiss in the clutch basket I now believe.

[Paul W]

I’ve heard tales that some “mechanics” have fitted a plate too many in the clutch basket.

It’s possible this has happened with yours and the ball has been left out in an attempt to rectify the situation. It needs stripping out whatever.

[ace.cafe]

Also, the steel clutch plates could be badly warped, or the dished plates on both ends could be installed wrong.

Watch out for those six 7mm clutch spring bolts. They are made of cheese, and twist the heads off real easy. Hard to find replacements.

[ddavidv]

Okay fellas, maybe I've found something. 
The center steel plate, item 12 in the diagram.

I've had it out and put it back in the same way each time. I remember thinking it odd that it seemed to have a 'dish' to it. Now I'm staring at it thinking it really should be flat, right?

See the gap between the ruler and the plate?

One pic each of either side. If someone can confirm that should be perfectly flat then I shall dance in happiness and glee. Until I realize I have to order one anyway.

[ace.cafe]

Only the outer and inner steel plates should be dished, and they are obviously very dished only in the center.

All the other steel plates should be perfectly flat. They are very often warped like that, and if you have a dragging clutch it will overheat and warp the steel plates.

I would order a few extra steel plates because new ones are warped from the factory about half the time.

[ddavidv]

Thanks Ace! I suspected as much. It is so perfectly formed that I thought it was made that way when I glanced at it before and just shrugged and put it back in. I was so convinced the problem was elsewhere. I could bang my head against the wall for all this nonsense I've gone through.
Four pounds thirty on Hitchcocks for one.

[Boxerman]

We have a USA based spares supplier on the forum don't we?
Are you not better buying from him? must be cheaper shipping.

Frank

[ddavidv]

On your suggestion I did check Western Cycle Supply's web site. Which is, frankly, horrible. No clutch parts came up in a search, just handlebar levers.
I compared the price of another item with the same on Hitchcocks and there was virtually no savings other than the probable shipping cost.
Hitchcocks does such an amazing job, has a fabulous web site as well as a beautiful and easy to use catalog it will take much better pricing and/or a vastly improved web site to get my business.

[charte]

David, you're becoming the clutch expert!  Wow man, good catch.  It's hard to see from the pics, but it is a bit bowed.  Now I can't wait to see if this is it. 

Exciting.

[ddavidv]

I also emailed Hitchcocks to confirm it should be flat as I knew they would know or could look at one. Indeed, should be flat like a coin.
Also regarding the above about where to buy it I'm not just ordering this one part. I need some things for my own bike as well so I can split the shipping on this one with my 'customer'.

[Boxerman]

Hitchcocks does such an amazing job, has a fabulous web site as well as a beautiful and easy to use catalog it will take much better pricing and/or a vastly improved web site to get my business.

You're preaching to the converted 
I'm in the UK and have been a Hitchcock's customer for many years.

Frank

[Paul W]

I’ve helped pay Mr. Hitchcock’s mortgage for the last three years. It had to be said they do give a very rapid turnaround of orders; in fact exceptionally so.

[ddavidv]

Just placed an order. Wouldn't have been bad except I couldn't help ordering things for myself! Since I'm not taking trips this year (so far anyway) I may as well spend the money on some bling for mine.

[ddavidv]

4 days from order to arrival. I love Hitchcocks. 

Installed the new disc and it seemed free-er but still felt some drag. Engine running = no change. 
The novelty is beginning to wear thin with this thing.
Not knowing what else to do I pulled off the entire clutch basket. What sort of play should there be between #1 and #2?

There has to be some play there to allow for the parts to spin independently but how much is too much? I removed the snap ring and took it apart and all the balls are within and visually look ok. These are not cheap parts to order on a whim.

[Seipgam]

Are you aware of the modification to take some of the flex out of the outer gearbox cover when the clutch is engaged?
I have done it to my Bullet and has made a small difference to clutch release/drag.
Mine is an Indian Bullet but I would think they are the same.

If you look carefully at the outer gearbox cover as you engage/disengage the clutch you will probably see that the cover flexes a couple of millimetres from the pressure of the clutch lever inside the cover. This mod links the outer cover to the inner one and removes most of that flex, giving a little more clutch release.

Here's the Hitchcocks link-   
https://accessories.hitchcocksmotorcycles.com/Parts-Book-Online?ext=F&search=outer+gearbox+flex
A bit pricey for what it is though.

May or may not help your situation but though I'd better mention it.

[ddavidv]

So here's a discovery...hopefully you can follow along.
I set up my dial indicator against the 'pressure plate' (the outermost plate the release 'bearing' runs against). When I pull the lever:
On one side the plate moves about .040
Directly across the plate only moves .025

(I think I'm typing the measurement correctly. I'm rubbish at reading non-metric stuff)

In other words the rearward/back of bike side moves nearly twice as much as the leading/front of bike side
It should release fairly evenly, correct?
If so then what in the wide world of sports is causing this??

[Bilgemaster]

So here's a discovery...hopefully you can follow along.
I set up my dial indicator against the 'pressure plate' (the outermost plate the release 'bearing' runs against). When I pull the lever:
On one side the plate moves about .040
Directly across the plate only moves .025

(I think I'm typing the measurement correctly. I'm rubbish at reading non-metric stuff)

In other words the rearward/back of bike side moves nearly twice as much as the leading/front of bike side
It should release fairly evenly, correct?
If so then what in the wide world of sports is causing this??

If I understand correctly, could it be the result of tired clutch springs or perhaps an unbalanced mix of regular and the "heavy duty" ones I've heard of? Are the front and rear measurements consistent as the pressure plate rotates?

[Paul W]

I’d suspect uneven pressure plate springs. Swap them round to see if you can even things up a little.

I have the often recommended combination of three heavy duty springs and three normal ones, obviously evenly located. My clutch works very nicely with them.

[ddavidv]

I can watch the springs compress fine. I've moved them around several times. The outer plate just won't move in one area. Which is really baffling because it has no grooves to slide in unlike the clutch parts.

[Williamsburg]

Not sure if this is relative to your problem or even a wise thing to do in general, but when I had what seems like a similar problem I added a couple of washers onto the bars that held the springs , so when the bolts were fully tightened the plates had a bit more play, this is something that I picked up here.

[ddavidv]

I don't think it has anything to do with the springs. I've moved them all around and even tried swapping in my old ones from my 500. The latter are unfortunately too long and are fully bound when the bolts are tightened. Which is odd because Hitchcocks catalog indicates the springs are same between 350 and 500 but this one predates the online catalog so something must be different.

What I did today was find which 'third' of the assembly wasn't releasing fully and marked it. I then removed the clutch parts keeping care that they remained all oriented as I found them, then rotated 180 degrees and installed them back. The same 'third' of the assembly (as marked on the basket which did not move) remained the same. From this I can deduce that the problem is not in the clutch parts themselves.

I then kicked the bike and moved the basket in total 180 degrees. The problem area moved with it. So back to the diagram:
https://www.hitchcocksmotorcycles.com/partsbook-pages/569
This means the problem lies in either #1 (clutch center piece with the 3 posts for the spring screws) or #2 (clutch drum the clutch rotates in). These of course attach to the output shaft of the transmission but I have a real hard time believing that could be the problem as you'd expect to see the whole works wobble when it rotates which it doesn't so far as I can see or measure.
Unfortunately the 3 disc clutch parts are unique to the 350 so I can't try 500 parts.

[charte]

David, this is becoming like a murder mystery to me!  I'm looking forward to every post!  Holy cow this is getting subtle and detailed.

I wish I had more to offer, but I can tell you I'm learning a heck of a lot from this odyssey, and I'm definitely rooting for you man.

[ace.cafe]

I would inspect all the splines and also the ball bearing ring on the clutch hub for wear.
I am also thinking maybe the clutch plates possibly rubbing/binding on the grooves in the clutch drum. You could look at that.

[ddavidv]

You read my mind.
Well, actually you read my mind after I watched a YouTube video tonight where the guy mentioned that exact thing. I may have screwed myself there as I had that inner part with the splines out but didn't have the foresight to check and file the grooves when it was apart. Only when it was back in the case did I think "Hmmm, probably ought to knock any edges off that". Which when it is together in the primary isn't exactly easy to do. So tomorrow I'll pull the whole mess out again and make absolutely sure all that stuff can glide like a greased pig.

[ddavidv]

So much for that idea.
I cleaned and filed all the splines. Nothing is hanging up.
Using my handy dial indicator I removed one piece at a time which wasn't terribly helpful since once the springs are off nothing spins...but I got down to just the basket and when kicking the bike over there are high/low spots. I actually set the dial against the outer cage and checked and it rises and falls (while not rotating). This indicates that either the inner part that attaches to the output shaft is 'bent' OR the shaft itself.

Whatever it is, the high/low 'wobble' I believe is the problem. As the trans side is kicked over I can see the clutches shift in/out. The high spot is where the clutch is not releasing. It's just enough to keep everything spinning/not fully disengage even though I can kick through with the lever held in. I can audibly hear the drag of the clutch parts even though it releases.

More to come...

[ddavidv]

Latest video. It goes over everything I've checked and what I think the problem is but I'm reluctant to believe this is the problem. Skip ahead to the last ten minutes or so if all you care about is what my conclusion is.
https://youtu.be/CDxrUWzFUuY

[charte]

David, like I posted, I'm loving your doggedness and seeing how the case unfolds.  I'm learning a lot.

I sent your video to the shop in India where my bikes were restored.  Bawa, the owner, writes back to me: "Problem is in clutch center better change the clutch center, give him my number."

I'm sure that means more to you than me.

Of course he's just seeing this cold from your video and doesn't have the benefit of all the above posts.

Hopefully, it's a helpful clue. 

If you want to call Bawa...........use Whatsapp so it doesn't cost you long distance......his number is:  +91 98106 74823

Tell him Chris sent you ;-)

No pressure man, just offering this if it helps you at all.

[charte]

To clarify looks like he is referring to 1 in the Hitchcock diagram the clutch center assembly

[ddavidv]

That's what I thought too, which doesn't make sense to me based on what wobbles. Normally I'd say he's right because the parts would hang up on the 'teeth' of #1.

[Paul W]

David, while you have the clutch assembly off, have you put your dial gauge against the gearbox shaft and checked for runout? If the shaft is bent, you could buy an entire new clutch assembly and still have the problem. But I'd be surprised if it was bent - unless the gearbox was dropped with the clutch fitted, I don't see how that could happen, short of a manufacturing fault.

However, having watched your video, I think it's as you say - the runout is between the hub and the basket. The hub is a solid piece of metal and fairly robust, the basket less so ; so I'd suspect the basket. The general condition of that basket looks pretty bad, by the way!

Edit: I've just had a thought...The outer flange of the clutch hub could be bent if someone has removed it by levering it off from behind, rather than by using the recommended puller!

This can be checked using your dial gauge with just the hub on the shaft, basket etc all removed. Put the pointer on the face and rotate the hub, any runout will be very obvious. 

[charte]

David, yea ok, was a long shot.

I hate to write this, because I think you're already into this deeper than you expected, but I've been thinking it........when done with this, it is such a cool looking bike, you could Fireball it.

I know, easy for me to say!

[ddavidv]

David, while you have the clutch assembly off, have you put your dial gauge against the gearbox shaft and checked for runout? If the shaft is bent, you could buy an entire new clutch assembly and still have the problem. But I'd be surprised if it was bent - unless the gearbox was dropped with the clutch fitted, I don't see how that could happen, short of a manufacturing fault.

However, having watched your video, I think it's as you say - the runout is between the hub and the basket. The hub is a solid piece of metal and fairly robust, the basket less so ; so I'd suspect the basket. The general condition of that basket looks pretty bad, by the way!

Edit: I've just had a thought...The outer flange of the clutch hub could be bent if someone has removed it by levering it off from behind, rather than by using the recommended puller!

This can be checked using your dial gauge with just the hub on the shaft, basket etc all removed. Put the pointer on the face and rotate the hub, any runout will be very obvious.

I thought I showed doing that in the last video but maybe I forgot or deleted it. Anyway, I did do just what you said. I actually did it twice because I got different results. I was going to chatter on about that but I was nagged enough to go back to the garage and fit and unfit some things yet again.
I found something else. Behind the center hub (the part I filed the grooves on) there was a washer looking thing. It was hammered and I thought someone had forced on a regular flatwasher to act as some sort of spacer to keep the hub from rubbing the heads of the bolts that hold the seal in. Looking at the trans shaft it appeared it needed something to keep the hub from sliding all the way back as it would certainly hit those bolt heads. I was reluctant to cut it off (it wouldn't budge; it was so badly distorted) but figured f--- it, what have I got to lose? Nicked it off with the Death Wheel and yep, something needs to be there to position the center hub out to clear the bolts. The shaft is stepped to receive whatever belongs there.

So I dove into the parts diagrams and couldn't find anything. The shaft goes through the trans case, the sprocket for the rear chain goes on and a nut holds it. Nothing else shown. Throwing logic to the wind I looked around the picture and found part #8.
https://www.hitchcocksmotorcycles.com/partsbook-pages/548
Which is a 'spacer' that looks thus:

Which, after I stared at my bent and squished 'washer' looks like the right piece.

So...this spacer was certainly not flat/round which means it could have cocked the hub on the shaft and when everything was tightened bent the clutch basket (which the center of which does seem sketchy). The owner, who has been enjoying my videos and appreciative of the effort I've gone to thus far, said, "Just buy everything. The parts are cheap compared to a BMW!" So I'll order a hub, basket, spacer and I think I'll go for the improved release rod with the bearings as well.

[ddavidv]

David, yea ok, was a long shot.

I hate to write this, because I think you're already into this deeper than you expected, but I've been thinking it........when done with this, it is such a cool looking bike, you could Fireball it.

I know, easy for me to say!

Did you mean Cannonball?
https://motorcyclecannonball.com/
It's not old enough to be eligible, nor would I want to spend one full day riding on that seat!

[mrunderhill1975a]

Charte may have been thinking of this type of Fireball:

https://thekneeslider.com/ace-fireball-535-royal-enfield-high-performance-kit/

I think I remember that Chumma is starting to take new orders.

[Adrian II]

That's what Fireball has usually referred to on this forum, unless we're talking the occasionally catastrophic result of the engine spitting back through an open carburetor mouth!

You CAN tune the 350 Bullet, though a 500 engine in full Fireball 535 trim might just make more sense of the cafe racer conversion.

Maybe once the clutch is sorted?

A.

[charte]

Yes, sorry, I was referring to the ACE Fireball.  Would be so cool to juice up that cafe racer.  Check out the vids on youtube, the Fireballs are amazing.  I don't have the bandwidth to do one, but since you're elbow deep into this bike anyway, was just an idea.

Again, easy for me to suggest lots of work and time to someone else ;-)

[ddavidv]

The next owner can Fireball it or set it on fire, I won't care!  The current owner wants it sold and I don't like cafe bikes so I'll need to find it a new home once it's moving again.
Which brings us to the problem of what is it worth? It really is a one-off oddity. Current owner is into it for about $4800 including shipping it to the US but doesn't expect to get that for it. It's cool, but it's a 350...and a Royal Enfield, which nobody except us lot have heard of. I get a commission on the sale but I've no real good idea what to ask for it.

[charte]

Roger that.  Like I said, I have lots of great ideas for other people's time and money ;-)

PMing you now about my experience selling in the market.

[cyrusb]

Roger that.  Like I said, I have lots of great ideas for other people's time and money ;-)

PMing you now about my experience selling in the market.

How did you make out with your sale?

[charte]

Cyrus, worked out well (see my post on the 1963 sold), thanks. 

Out of respect for the buyer, who may join this site, I feel it's best not to disclose the $$$.  I'll leave that to him if he choses.

He's a collector, so he will take good care of it.  That makes me feel good because I put a lot into the restoration, financially and emotionally, so I'm happy to have a good guy now own it.

BTW, it was an interesting process, I did get responses from people asking about how fast does it go, generally looking for a bike in this price range, and the "I have a Ninja and looking for a second bike".  I was actually the worst sales guy in the world, because I would tell these contacts this isn't the bike for them.  I have to say I was looking for the right buyer...I don't need the cash really, I just can't keep up with all the bikes I have, and am coming to terms with that fact. 

[cyrusb]

 In reference to the "Cafe Bike" that Clubman kit on the 350 was fairly pricey if I remember it correctly. But talking about price before it's fully sorted may be premature.

[ddavidv]

All the cafe bits on this one were custom made by hand. The original owner being in India couldn't justify the cost of the 'kit' so had one replicated locally.
We can speculate on the price because it will be fixed before it's sold.  I don't give up easily.

[ace.cafe]

In the US, being a 350 is not working in its favor.
Nothing really bad about a 350, except being slower. But, they stopped selling the 350 in the US around 1998 due to lack of interest.

Very popular in India because of great fuel econmy. Not so much here in the US.

[cyrusb]

All the cafe bits on this one were custom made by hand. The original owner being in India couldn't justify the cost of the 'kit' so had one replicated locally.
We can speculate on the price because it will be fixed before it's sold.  I don't give up easily.

. Wow, Really? That kit looks exactly like the Watsonian Clubman Kit. Who knew? What a great selling point. When its all sorted it should bring a pretty penny.

[Adrian II]

My worry is that with the stock 350 engine's limited power output it just won't sell, no matter how well you fix it, or how nicely the cafe racer look has been achieved.

A.

[Boxerman]

My worry is that with the stock 350 engine's limited power output it just won't sell, no matter how well you fix it, or how nicely the cafe racer look has been achieved.

I thought this the first time I saw it. Bimbling along sat upright enjoying the ride on a slow bike is fine, no-one is expecting you to be doing anything else.
When you have a bumstop seat, rearsets, dropped bars 'racing' tank you give the impression that you're a fast rider. Sitting in a racing crouch and getting blown into the weeds by any kid sitting upright on a 125 must be an embarrassment.

Frank

[ddavidv]

A limited market, to be sure. I just have to find that buyer who is in the same demographic as someone who would pay $6000 for a new Janus.

[ddavidv]

Well lads I am at an impasse.
$250 of new clutch basket and center hub and it does exactly the same thing as before. Clutch plates release cockeyed. If I spin the entire assembly with the kicker and try it again the tight spot moves.

I took everything off and installed just the center hub on the trans output shaft and spun it. I could detect no wobble.

I took the release rod (the short one with the flat head) out and put it in my drill press and spun it. Perfectly straight.

I removed the long release rod and rolled it across the floor and it has no wobble.

At this point I am totally and utterly baffled. I don't even know where to look next.

[charte]

Brother Dave,

I am no help, but I hope the team can get you there.  Your doggedness is admirable.

[Boxerman]

Without going back through all the posts, have you checked that the springs are all the same strength? and you are 100% sure the shaft isn't bent?

Frank

[Paul W]

Without going back through all the posts, have you checked that the springs are all the same strength? and you are 100% sure the shaft isn't bent?

Frank

Same thoughts here.

[ace.cafe]

Same thoughts here.

Agree that it is possible if previous owner installed 3 heavy duty springs and put them all on one side instead of staggering them every other one.

Also agree that this is an unusual problem. I haven't seen this before.

[ddavidv]

To clarify:
I put the center hub by itself on the shaft and spun it round. No out-of-roundness found. If the shaft were bent I should get a wobble.

I've moved all the springs around multiple times. They appear to have the same thickness, coil spacing and age to them. All of the mixed springs I've seen are visibly different.

[charte]

Ok, as dumb as this sounds, could the clutch rod end (#18 in the post picture, I think on page 4 of this thread) be warped or not hitting the plate squarely?

[Boxerman]

They appear to have the same thickness, coil spacing and age to them. All of the mixed springs I've seen are visibly different.

But have you checked that they are the same strength?
Two springs, end to end with a washer between them.
Place in vice and tighten up a bit. Both springs should compress the same amount.

Frank

[ddavidv]

I was wondering how to test them. Brilliant!

[ddavidv]

I'm editing together the latest trials and tribulations video.
Summation:  I'm out of ideas. Though I simply cannot wrap my head around this I'm now thinking something is amiss in the gearbox. I cannot move the shaft or make it wobble with the clutch assembly off. There is no play. With it all together and the clutch lever pulled there is wobble that causes the plates to move against the discs that I think is causing enough drag for the clutch to never actually release. This would mean the shaft coming from the transmission would have to spin out-of-round for some reason.
I've never taken apart an Albion or any other m/c transmission. That by itself isn't a deterrent but I don't want to dive into it if I don't have to. And if I DO have to go into it does it have to be removed from the bike or can it be done in situ? Because taking it out doesn't look like a five minute job!

[cyrusb]

It unloads out the right side. No need to remove the case.

[cyrusb]

"Hey, I'm sure it/I will provide massive entertainment." Remember your first post, (over 2600 views/136 answers  ago)when you wrote this ? This has to be some kind of record.

[ace.cafe]

You could set up a dial indicator near the end of the shaft and turn the shaft to check runout.
Easier than taking the gearbox apart.

[ddavidv]

I tried that, Ace. I got nothing from what measurement I was able to take. My thought was it has to have the 'load' of the clutch release activation to make it go askew.

Anyway, here is the latest diatribe. If you don't care to follow the entire story you can probably zip in at around the 12 minute mark and get the summary.

https://youtu.be/Ta7sDdGwxQU

[Paul W]

This would mean the shaft coming from the transmission would have to spin out-of-round for some reason.

This is what some of us have been trying to tell you. Either 1) the end of the shaft from the gearbox is slightly bent, 2) the splines were manufactured off centre. or 3) there is some other mismatch between the shaft and the clutch hub, making it run off-centre.

I suggest you take out all of the plates leaving just the hub and basket in place. Then, operate the kickstart with the gearbox in neutral. You should be able to see then if the clutch centre (hub) runs true or not. If it wobbles as it rotates, and it's properly bolted up, there's your problem.

[Black fingernail]

You could set up a dial indicator near the end of the shaft and turn the shaft to check runout.
Easier than taking the gearbox apart.

Like Ace said!
About the only thing not replaced is the shaft, I recon the end of the shaft is slightly bent, has it been clobbered while bashing on the 'spacer'?

[Paul W]

Or, possibly someone has tried to remove the clutch hub by use of a crowbar from behind, instead of an extractor.

[cyrusb]

Can I suggest bolting it up and going for a ride? I think you may be expecting way too much precision from that assembly.. There may be a problem, but I still would try it out. Remember it's Royal Enfield not DaVinci surgical equipment . Also an EDIT. I can no longer see your original photo but did it have non original handlebars ? How about the controls?  If you are not getting the required stroke from the clutch lever it won't matter what you do to the basket assembly. The heart of it is how far that lever pulls the cable. Give that a look.

[ddavidv]

Fair questions/suggestions, Cyrus.
I can't ride it. It won't go into gear AT ALL with the engine running. Pushing down/up on the shifter just gets you gears grinding.
The handlebars are stupid cafe bars but there is no issue with the cable. Plenty of slack and I've toyed with that quite a bit as one of the 14,955 things I've tried.

On a happy note I did get the Vermont tag in the mail today. She's no longer an illegal immigrant. 

[charte]

Well at least congratulations on the tag!!!!

[cyrusb]

Just to finalize this issue there should be no slack in the cable if you want the most motion from the hand lever. The clearance will be adjusted at the tranny with the screw and locknut. If this has no effect, your right, this is entertaining.

[ddavidv]

Any tips on getting the 'alternator' off? I've had to use a puller to move the crank gear forward enough to get the chain off but then it reaches a point where it won't move further. I'm thinking the gear gets hung up on the 'key' for the alternator (if memory serves as to how that all goes together).

Or...do I not have to remove the rear drive sprocket to just get into the gearbox? I feel like I'm going to need to pull the shaft out though to check everything.

[ace.cafe]

Any tips on getting the 'alternator' off? I've had to use a puller to move the crank gear forward enough to get the chain off but then it reaches a point where it won't move further. I'm thinking the gear gets hung up on the 'key' for the alternator (if memory serves as to how that all goes together).

Or...do I not have to remove the rear drive sprocket to just get into the gearbox? I feel like I'm going to need to pull the shaft out though to check everything.

You must remove the Woodruff key.

The gearbox shaft will need to come out, so you must remove everything off of it including the drive sprocket.

[Adrian II]

Any tips on getting the 'alternator' off?

Ought be straightforward, it's just a copy of the old Lucas alternator. Disconnect the stator wires, undo the three nuts that hold the stator onto its mounting studs, you should be able to slide it off. If the clutch is still in bits, use an oil filter strap wrench around the alternator rotor to hold it steady and undo the sleeve nut on the end of the crankshaft, then the rotor should just slide off too, after that you can pull the rotor key out of its slot on the crankshaft and the spacer in front of the engine sprocket.

https://accessories.hitchcocksmotorcycles.com/Technical-Notes - the gearbox and clutch section second from the end should have all you need to know.

A.

[ace.cafe]

You must remove the Woodruff key.

The gearbox shaft will need to come out, so you must remove everything off of it including the drive sprocket.

I should add that taking the Woodruff key out is only needed if you are also going to take off the front engine sprocket.
Reading Adrian's post above reminded me about my remark being incorrect if not removing sprockets.

[ddavidv]

The center alternator part does not slide off the crank.

[ace.cafe]

The center alternator part does not slide off the crank.

Okay, then it probably needs a puller, and it might break apart because they are not real sturdy. So, be ready for the possibility of getting a new one.

[Adrian II]

The center alternator part does not slide off the crank.

Either the alternator rotor is glued/loctited onto the crankshaft or else it has been forced onto an oversized woodruff key, I suspect.

A.

[ddavidv]

It needed just a smidge of a tug with a puller. Whew.
Well, once again I shall boldly go where I have feared to tread. Into the gearbox I go.
But probably not until the weekend. And that's assuming I can get the sprocket off which sounds like a righteous PITA.
Tell me again why I volunteered for this job?

[Paul W]

I needed to remove the 4 speed gearbox from my 350 Bullet Electra.
In my case, it was so I could fit a 5 speed box I’d bought. In theory, this requires a whole host of special tools.

These are a magneto flywheel/rotor puller, a crank sprocket puller, a clutch hub puller, a clutch holding tool and finally a gearbox sprocket puller.

I worked out that buying all these tools almost equalled the price of the used 5 speed gearbox I’d bought! I knew I’d probably only ever use them once.

I reckoned I could undo the clutch nut by carefully jamming the primary chain, as I’d done on other bikes, so I didn’t buy the holding tool. I wasn’t sure about the clutch hub puller so decided to see how the job went and didn’t buy that tool either.

I knew I needed the flywheel puller because I knew it was on a taper. I was right, it took quite some effort to break the joint. This flywheel is a different design to the earlier Bullets.

I did buy the crank sprocket puller but never used it because everything apart from the magneto flywheel just pulled off by hand!

[ddavidv]

I've worked around the primary side without a special tool, just using my assortment of automotive pullers. We'll see how far I get. I'm sure I'll need something from Hitchcocks so if I have to buy a tool that's okay. I expect to be working on a few more Bullets as time goes on. I generally like working on them...provided I can diagnose WTF is wrong!

[Paul W]

You’ll hopefully do OK on a standard Bullet engine. It wasn’t possible to safely remove the magneto rotor of my Electra without its special extractor because the rotor is cup shaped and fits closely around the outside of the stator. The stator is bolted to the inside of the primary chain case on these bikes. This is almost identical to the setup of the later, unit construction engines. The rotor also powers the AC headlight and a metal target on its outer face triggers the TCI ignition sensor.

The extractor is tubular with an internal thread, which screws onto an external thread on the inner hub/boss of the rotor. The working part of the extractor is a large diameter bolt which is then screwed in hard until it tightens onto the end of the crank to push against it. Any attempt to remove the rotor by other means would probably bend the delicate outer rim and destroy the air gap to the stator.

[ddavidv]

Hello sports fans, back again after waiting for the spammer to be dealt a swift death.
I have now pulled the gearbox somewhat apart. My education in becoming a YouTube Enfield mechanic continues. This is a very short video that I would appreciate some feedback on. My brain and my gut both think this may be the issue.
https://youtu.be/TreHhCYHmxc

[cyrusb]

How well does that input shaft fit in the drive sprocket dog? Yes there is movement, but it is also supported at the sprocket end. If it is loose there you may have the answer. Slide it together (just the shaft) and check again.

[Adrian II]

If the right hand bearing on the gearbox mainshaft is kaput it will have put extra strain in the bearing that the sleeve (onto to which the sprocket is fixed) sits in. If they're BOTH kaput you may have got to the bottom of it. You can get bearings with a single rubber seal on the outward face which will let you replace the grease with oil, there was something about this on H's website, I think.

A.

[ddavidv]

Am I brave or stupid? I suppose time will tell.





The primary side bearing is a new FAG and I'm calling it good. The kickstart side bearing is stamped "India" and seems woefully light on grease.

[ace.cafe]

You can do it.
Just remember that to remove/refit those bearings in the alloy castings, you need to clean them off well and heat them to ~300°F and they wil tap out and go in real easily. They are heat shrink fit in the castings. If you don't use heat to expand the alloy, there will be a lot of drama, and either the bearing or case may be damaged.

[ddavidv]

New bearing has arrived. 94 degree forecast, no a/c in the garage and I need to use a torch. Should be a fun day.

[Boxerman]

I usually put bearing in a poly bag and then stick them in the freezer for a few hours.
Plus heating whatever it's going in makes for less drama.

Frank

[ddavidv]

Heated the case/housing a bit and the old one nearly fell out with a tap or two.

Aaaaand the new bearing won't fit. 
OD is about a mm larger but more problematic is the ID is also a mm larger. That's a no-go.

Why does the universe hate me so much?

[cyrusb]

So how bad was the removed bearing? Real rough, loose, etc? Maybe a local parts house can match one up for you.

[Stanley]

Bearing supply shops can measure and match bearings at the counter. Those places have supplied bearings for many of my bikes.

[ddavidv]

I spent about an hour with Google, my micrometer and some cross reference charts then searched Ebay, Amazon and some bearing vendor sites. The thing is an oddball (of course) but I did find some NOS on Ebay for a fraction of the Hitchcocks price. The one I bought is even made in England!

The removed bearing wasn't rough but does seem to have more axial play than it should. It also wasn't packed with grease like I'd have wanted to see.

[ddavidv]

New bearing arrived and installed. But...
Now I can't get the gearbox cover (that the bearing sits in) to go back on the whole way. It's about 1-2mm from the mating surface. If I remove the upper main shaft (that goes through the bearing) I can get it on no problem.

So you're thinking:  "the bearing is wrong". Nope. Measured it's thickness and have installed it twice to make sure it's seated properly.

Is there something in the Albion that may need lined up that I'm missing? I can't for the life of me figure it out. I've had it apart and back together at least six times and it simply won't go together.

[ddavidv]

Pro Tip: if the most inboard gear for the upper shaft falls into the case when you remove everything it is important to note it can go on the shaft the wrong way. This will keep the outer/center case from fitting flush to the mating surface.

Sadly, the replacement bearing did nothing for the clutch wobble. Frustrating.

[cyrusb]

Have you measured the stroke of the pressure plate when the lever is pulled? Should be around 1/4". If you have done this please disregard.

[ddavidv]

Took the trans apart again last night. It's a tricky thing trying to check the radial nature of that shaft. However, I do believe now that it may have a bend in it. I had checked it with a straight edge when it was apart previously and the long part of the shaft is indeed straight. But...it appears to be bent somewhere near the un-machined part in the right of this picture:

With a subtle bend there it would translate to a very pronounced wobble at the opposite clutch basket end.
Not a cheap part to take a guess on at $80 + shipping. I toyed with getting another transmission but they run $200-300 for a knackered looking one and no telling if I'd get the correct shaft as mine is the older model with different size bearing on that right end. I've had suggestions of trying to put it in a press or whack it with a brass hammer but I don't have confidence in my metal working skills (near nil) to probably try that.

[Adrian II]

But...it appears to be bent somewhere near the un-machined part

It's all machined, just not all of it is shiny!

A.

[cyrusb]

David, did you roll that shaft on a flat surface? Like a piece of glass, countertop, etc? The runout would be obvious if done this way. Anyone you know have a lathe? even better.

[charte]

David, I continue to admire your tenacity.

I can't wait to see you get this thing running!

Regards from the 350 Cafe Racer David Fan Club ;-)

[ddavidv]

Yeah, all machined. Nit-pickers. 

I have a friend with a mill and a lathe and a press. I'm going to visit him this weekend, hopefully.

[cyrusb]

Well , there you go then. Maybe a new book is in order. The title could be "Biting the Bullet"

[ddavidv]

Should I eventually find success I will document it all in a revised/expanded version of the Dodging Bullets book. I felt that volume was a bit thin anyway.

[ace.cafe]

I have to admit, you are seeing something that I have never seen, so there is always room to learn something new.

[cyrusb]

After reviewing the earlier vids it doesn't look like there is enough movement to disengage . The most I saw was .050" if 1 full turn on that dial was .100". Honestly, I have had Ducs with air cooled clutches that had more runout than your bullet. Sounded like giant Tamborines they were so loose. 

[ddavidv]

Well if anyone wants to take their primary cover off and video how theirs works I'd be appreciative.  My own bike is a 5 speed so isn't identical.

[cyrusb]

David, no need to remove anything to know that .050" is not enough to disengage a clutch. You need at the very least 1/8" or .125 minimum. Pop your cover off, those clutches are close enough for comparison. Its just one bolt.

[ddavidv]

And draining the ATF from the primary. Again.

[Paul W]

Took the trans apart again last night. It's a tricky thing trying to check the radial nature of that shaft. However, I do believe now that it may have a bend in it. I had checked it with a straight edge when it was apart previously and the long part of the shaft is indeed straight. But...it appears to be bent somewhere near the un-machined part in the right of this picture:

With a subtle bend there it would translate to a very pronounced wobble at the opposite clutch basket end.
Not a cheap part to take a guess on at $80 + shipping. I toyed with getting another transmission but they run $200-300 for a knackered looking one and no telling if I'd get the correct shaft as mine is the older model with different size bearing on that right end. I've had suggestions of trying to put it in a press or whack it with a brass hammer but I don't have confidence in my metal working skills (near nil) to probably try that.

I did actually suggest this might be the cause of your problem..... a month ago in post #139 

If the shaft has been bent (rather than the splines being machined incorrectly), it might well be possible to straighten it using a press.

[cyrusb]

I believe that shaft is hardened and ground, and may not respond well to bending. Run a file over it to test.

[ddavidv]

I did actually suggest this might be the cause of your problem..... a month ago in post #139 

I'm sure that cup of "I told you so" is delicious. 
I checked it with a straight edge and it was straight...just not the part further in, apparently.
May as well try the press. Got nothing to lose. If it breaks I still needed one anyway.

[cyrusb]

How "out" is it? Did you run a file over it? And when I say file I don't mean HTML.

[Paul W]

I'm sure that cup of "I told you so" is delicious. 
I checked it with a straight edge and it was straight...just not the part further in, apparently.
May as well try the press. Got nothing to lose. If it breaks I still needed one anyway.

Not so at all. I was actually trying to help you from my own experience and knowledge. It was disappointing that you didn’t even acknowledge it and it was frustrating to see you go down another route.

I hope you get the problem sorted.

[cyrusb]

And draining the ATF from the primary. Again.

All you have to do on the 5 speed you have is remove the inspection cover (2 screws)and look/dial indicate the amount of movement of the actuator. This should give you an idea how much motion is needed to disengage A clutch.

[cyrusb]

I'm bumping this back up because after 188 replies learning nothing would be a huge waste. Any advancements?

[ddavidv]

Funny you should ask.
Sunday was a day filled with frustration. I think I may have spent too much time in the shop and my brain was too spent. A large part of me wanted to tell the owner that I'm done with it and he's just going to have to sell it as a lawn ornament.

Tonight I went out there, fiddled with a few things, took things apart and put them back together and...well, on the center stand it seems like it may work as Redditch intended. I'll hopefully know more tomorrow if the weather supports taking it outside.

Let me just preview the next video installment by stating that a steel transmission shaft should be made of far stronger material than what this one was. I simply could not get my head to accept that such a piece could be bent for no reason because STEEL. Yeah, well...this is Indian made steel.

There was more to it than that but I'm not going to commence patting myself on the back until I actually ride the thing.

Which brings me to starting procedure. My 5 speed has a PKW on it and I just kick it once with no throttle and it starts. This one has something else; may be a Mikarb but am not certain. Anyway, it seems to need the enrichener activated PLUS a bit of throttle to want to start. Certainly doesn't seem right. Suggestions?

[Adrian II]

Let me just preview the next video installment by stating that a steel transmission shaft should be made of far stronger material than what this one was. I simply could not get my head to accept that such a piece could be bent for no reason because STEEL. Yeah, well...this is Indian made steel.

Plus you wouldn't know if the original rebuild used a factory original or a pattern part, plenty of non-RE RE parts around, even more so now for the older models.

A.

[ddavidv]

Clutch issue is RESOLVED!
The gearbox is another story, however. I pretty much can't engage first gear unless the planets are properly aligned and the Flying Spaghetti Monster has touched my bike with his noodly appendage. Other gears are difficult and downshifting by foot is a no-go.
I only had enough time to give the Snidal manual on the shift calibration a cursory read. I did pull the plunger thingy out and it doesn't look like my first gear detent is even close to being 'available'.
Sigh.
But...it did run up and down the road.

[Paul W]

I’m glad to see you’ve got the clutch running true. However, I’m sorry to have say, but many gearbox problems are actually caused by clutch drag. Hopefully it’s just an adjustment issue. Try selecting the gears with the engine  stopped. If this is more successful, try tightening the cable adjuster slightly and see if it improves.

I have to keep the clutch cable quite tight on my own Bullet, now fitted with a five speed box, for this same reason. Same on my Honda CB750.

[cyrusb]

I’m glad to see you’ve got the clutch running true. However, I’m sorry to have say, but many gearbox problems are actually caused by clutch drag. Hopefully it’s just an adjustment issue. Try selecting the gears with the engine  stopped. If this is more successful, try tightening the cable adjuster slightly and see if it improves.

I have to keep the clutch cable quite tight on my own Bullet, now fitted with a five speed box, for this same reason. Same on my Honda CB750.

I second that thought. The last time you videoed your clutch the pressure plate only stroked .050". You can measure that now through the adjustment port. So what was the runout with the new shaft?

[ddavidv]

Non-running is no better.

[ddavidv]

Latest video which brings us to almost current:  https://youtu.be/IzL21IEWCRY

I tinkered with the shift adjustment cam doohickey and got it to engage all the gears. Sort of. It's truly awful. Going up through the gears I can usually get them but going down again is a complete Neutral Pergatory nightmare. Third either way seems particularly unwilling. I know these aren't known for being precise but they can't be this bad. And of course I don't know if it is compounded or caused by the Indian back-alley made rearset shifter linkage.

[ddavidv]

I'm calling it done.
The shifting is pretty horrible. I was able to adjust the shift 'cam' and get the gears to engage. Finding 2nd is a real 'Where's Waldo?' undertaking most times for some reason.
Anyway, it's as good as I'm likely to get it. Cleaned it up a bit. The oil blowby from the duckbill seems to have sorted itself. May have been too much oil in the crankcase?
Video of it now for sale: https://youtu.be/OlT8UDpBJqY

[ddavidv]

It is sold. Going to be mostly a display piece in the collection of a very nice fellow only about half an hour from me. Got $2500 for it.