Author Topic: Primary side case differences?  (Read 2670 times)

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Paul W

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on: December 03, 2021, 12:45:29 pm
[I thought I’d start a new thread on this; Raymond’s welcome thread is getting rather off topic (I’m as guilty as anyone).]

I’ve seen that the “standard” primary side case on most iron barrelled Bullets has a central stud fixing and an “O ring” seal.

The later, “Electra X” engine had a different primary case setup with a gasket and a set of perimeter screw fixings. This seems to be a backward step because every time the outer case is removed there’s a chance the gasket will be ruined (I’ve just bought another which the postman unhelpfully folded into four and rammed through the letterbox)….and they’re  not ten a penny.

My own bike is an iron barrel Bullet Electra 350, non electric start. Yet it has the later type of casings with screw fixings and a gasket. This caused some early confusion at Hitchcock’s when I tried to buy parts for it.

Anyone know why they chose to fit a later case to an early engine, and when?

Perhaps one advantage is that the screw type might provide some extra rigidity to the engine assembly. Other than that?
Paul W.


Paul W

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Reply #1 on: December 03, 2021, 12:47:47 pm
Here’s the left side of my 350 Bullet Electra:

Paul W.


richard211

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Reply #2 on: December 03, 2021, 01:58:49 pm
[I thought I’d start a new thread on this; Raymond’s welcome thread is getting rather off topic (I’m as guilty as anyone).]

I’ve seen that the “standard” primary side case on most iron barrelled Bullets has a central stud fixing and an “O ring” seal.

The later, “Electra X” engine had a different primary case setup with a gasket and a set of perimeter screw fixings. This seems to be a backward step because every time the outer case is removed there’s a chance the gasket will be ruined (I’ve just bought another which the postman unhelpfully folded into four and rammed through the letterbox)….and they’re  not ten a penny.

My own bike is an iron barrel Bullet Electra 350, non electric start. Yet it has the later type of casings with screw fixings and a gasket. This caused some early confusion at Hitchcock’s when I tried to buy parts for it.

Anyone know why they chose to fit a later case to an early engine, and when?

Perhaps one advantage is that the screw type might provide some extra rigidity to the engine assembly. Other than that?



 
 On the older models the stator and the rotor were mostly contained in the inner clutch case and the outer clutch case was just a cover with a fill and drain plug. One disadvantage with this alternator was every time the stator was removed, it needed to be installed so that there was an equal air gap between the rotor and the stator. it used to take a while to adjust it just right and this cover was also prone to having oil leaks.

 The early to mid 2000's electric start models came with the TCI ignition in India, since the rotor was mounted on the crankshaft and the stator on the outer clutch cover, it was important to have the covers line up perfectly every time. The gasket was used to stop the oil leaks that plagued the older clutch case design. The 3 phase alternator and the TCI was a huge improvement over the old design which was basically form the mid 1950's. On the Electra X the alternator was rated at a peak output of 196 Watts. The TCI was then offered on the Electra and Machismo from 2004 onwards with both Electric start and non electric start. The TCI in theory meant anybody could just switch the ignition key on, kick the engine over, engine fires up right away and you could just ride off. Unlike the older models where you had to follow a start up procedure using the decompressor and ammeter every single time the engine had to be started sometimes it could take a lot of tries to get the engine started especially during a cold start.
 The trick with the TCI gasket is to apply grease on both sides of the gasket prior to installation. It allows the gasket to come off rather easily and not tear off when the clutch cover is opened up for service. If the gasket is hard to come by or expensive, you can always make your own gasket using commonly available gasket paper.


Karl Childers

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Reply #3 on: December 03, 2021, 02:45:17 pm


Not an answer but another question on the subject of primary covers. The picture shows a Sixty 5, not my bike but that is the same outer primary cover I have. I recently changed out the inner cover to the non electric start version for weight savings as well as aesthetics. While I don't mind my outer cover I was wondering would an earlier, smoother cover without the circular bulge fit? They are a lot more pleasing to my eye but I'm not sure they would clear the alternator.

As to the topic this thread, I had my doubts about one bolt attachment of the outer cover yet my old set up never dripped a drop. Hopefully I will do as well with the new one!



Paul W

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Reply #4 on: December 03, 2021, 03:44:58 pm
Richard, thanks for the info. My bike is apparently an Indian home market model. I don’t know quite how it ended up in U.K. but I have seen two or three others advertised for sale here (all of them incomplete). The registration plate shows a dealer’s website address who no longer seems to exist so I assume there were only a very few imported by them.

My own technique for preserving gaskets is to stick them to the cover with clear glue such as UHU and grease the engine side so that it comes off with the cover. Then if it does need scraping off and renewing  it can be done on the bench, rather than grovelling on the garage floor on my old knees! Having worked on BSAs etc as well as a range of other engines for over fifty years I do keep a stock of gasket paper (I actually made a gasket for my ride on lawn mower carb very recently) but this one is quite tricky to make because of its large size.  :-\
Paul W.


richard211

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Reply #5 on: December 03, 2021, 03:50:21 pm


Not an answer but another question on the subject of primary covers. The picture shows a Sixty 5, not my bike but that is the same outer primary cover I have. I recently changed out the inner cover to the non electric start version for weight savings as well as aesthetics. While I don't mind my outer cover I was wondering would an earlier, smoother cover without the circular bulge fit? They are a lot more pleasing to my eye but I'm not sure they would clear the alternator.

As to the topic this thread, I had my doubts about one bolt attachment of the outer cover yet my old set up never dripped a drop. Hopefully I will do as well with the new one!

Hi Karl
The clutch outer cover in the photo you posted was used on the CDI ignition models. Reason being that a reluctor was installed between the sprocket on the crankshaft and the alternator rotor / magnet, this pushed the alternator rotor outwards, which is why this cover has a circular bulge to accommodate the alternator offset.
 To figure out whether the older style outer clutch cover would fit, we have to figure out what ignition system is on your bullet. If its a distributor then it would most probably not need a cover with a circular bulge. If you could wait for a day, I could pull apart the clutch outer cover on an engine I have and give you some measurements on how far the alternator stator and magnet sticks out from the clutch inner case on a non ES iron barrel engine and you could use that to compare it to you bullet.

Richard.


Paul W

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Reply #6 on: December 03, 2021, 04:20:36 pm
The blue bike in that photo seems to have electric start but also a distributor! RE certainly made a range of versions on a similar  theme….  ;)
Paul W.


cyrusb

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Reply #7 on: December 03, 2021, 04:22:14 pm
My '05 has points and that bulge on its primary cover. When I had it off it seemed necessary due to the size and placement of the alternator, but I never measured it so I cant be definite.
 What I did find odd about the cover was the design of the o-ring groove. It's dead wrong, with a radius at the groove bottom and dimension not allowing the two surfaces to meet. But it works soooo.
2005E Fixed and or Replaced: ignition, fenders,chainguard,wires,carb,headlight,seat,tailight,sprockets,chain,shock springs,fork springs, exhaust system, horn,shifter,clutch arm, trafficators,crankcase vent.


richard211

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Reply #8 on: December 03, 2021, 04:31:58 pm
Paul I am adding a photo of the blue TCI for reference.


richard211

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Reply #9 on: December 03, 2021, 04:50:48 pm
My '05 has points and that bulge on its primary cover. When I had it off it seemed necessary due to the size and placement of the alternator, but I never measured it so I cant be definite.
 What I did find odd about the cover was the design of the o-ring groove. It's dead wrong, with a radius at the groove bottom and dimension not allowing the two surfaces to meet. But it works soooo.

Was this an electric start model? There are around 17 possible inner clutch cases options and 10 outer clutch cases that were available for the iron barrel and AVL engines.


cyrusb

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Reply #10 on: December 03, 2021, 04:55:13 pm
Was this an electric start model? There are around 17 possible inner clutch cases options and 10 outer clutch cases that were available for the iron barrel and AVL engines.
Kick only. It was an oddball is what the dealer told me. Thats an amazing amount of choices for just a couple of models.
2005E Fixed and or Replaced: ignition, fenders,chainguard,wires,carb,headlight,seat,tailight,sprockets,chain,shock springs,fork springs, exhaust system, horn,shifter,clutch arm, trafficators,crankcase vent.


richard211

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Reply #11 on: December 03, 2021, 05:23:27 pm
Kick only. It was an oddball is what the dealer told me. Thats an amazing amount of choices for just a couple of models.

That's a lovely motorcycle you have, The odd thing is in the photo near the foot peg there is bush pressed into the cover where the gear shaft for left side shifter is supposed to be. Now the question that arises is why would a 5 speed left side shift clutch outer cover be fitted on 4 speed right side shift, especially when RE has a similar cover specific for the right side shift.


cyrusb

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Reply #12 on: December 03, 2021, 06:24:17 pm
It is a five speed I converted it to right side shifting. It shifted fine on the left but the rear brake was useless in that config and I am mostly a front brake guy, but that rear was like bubble gum. Have you noticed what I had mentioned about the o-ring groove in the cover?
« Last Edit: December 03, 2021, 07:26:32 pm by cyrusb »
2005E Fixed and or Replaced: ignition, fenders,chainguard,wires,carb,headlight,seat,tailight,sprockets,chain,shock springs,fork springs, exhaust system, horn,shifter,clutch arm, trafficators,crankcase vent.


Karl Childers

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Reply #13 on: December 03, 2021, 06:27:05 pm
Mine is an 06, left hand shift, 5 speed transmission. points ignition.


Paul W

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Reply #14 on: December 03, 2021, 06:58:14 pm
Seems to me with these bikes it’s a bit of a lottery what the actual configuration is depending on when and where you bought it.

I’m glad I posted this topic.

So many variations on a theme  ;D
Paul W.