Author Topic: Diesel conversion  (Read 4093 times)

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Ove

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Reply #15 on: September 29, 2021, 10:50:31 pm
My opinion is that it's not very productive to judge products developed for radically different markets, in terms of what we want for our own use.
   
I don't know where you live, but consider that:
      -  India has national and local speed limits that restrict motorcycles to less than 50 kph on most roads.  That's 31 mph.
                                                                  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speed_limits_in_India
      -  The Royal Enfield 350 is considered to be a large, high powered motorcycle in India, where the average bike is closer to 150cc.
      -  The average gasoline price in the USA is currently around $3.20.  In India it's around $5.50.  Diesel is about 10% cheaper.   
      -  The average income in the USA is currently around $51,000 yearly.  In India, it's equivalent to around $1,600.  That's less than 1/30th as much.  Twenty years ago, when the Taurus was being made, the income contrast was even greater.

It's not hard to see why economy of operation is now and was then important in a market that considers motorcycles to be transportation, and not just recreation.  The Taurus was reported to have a top speed around 65 kph, and could get 90 km/liter.  That's better than twice the fuel economy of a Bullet 350 UCE.

In my opinion, it wasn't a lack of buyers that killed the Taurus.  It was India's increasingly stringent emissions requirements.
[/b]

Or, it was quicker to walk?


axman88

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Reply #16 on: September 30, 2021, 03:54:57 am
[/b]

Or, it was quicker to walk?
Since you doubled down, I will too.

I don't think a whole lot has changed in the preferences of the Indian market in the 20 years since the Taurus was discontinued.  Then and now, economy outsells horsepower by a wide margin.

Here's a list of the top 10 selling motorcycles in the Indian market over the last period for which stats were compiled:  https://www.autocarindia.com/bike-news/best-selling-bikes-in-india-january-2021-420094

We see a long list of sub 200cc machines, generally all less than 10 hp.  Top on the list, at 1,932,736 units, is the Hero Splendor, which delivers 9.1 hp from its 113cc.   Hero sold 9 times more of this single model, to a single country, than Harley Davidson and Indian combined, sold to the entire world.

There is one motorcycle on that top ten list that is much bigger than the rest.  It has almost 20 hp, and 350cc.  That's the machine you were saying is lackluster, the Royal Enfield 350, their biggest seller by a wide margin.

You've made it clear that you prefer a bigger bike, with more power and more speed.  But, clearly there's a lot of people (over 6 million during '20-21 in India alone. according to the list above) who apparently want no part of that experience.  In fact, it's interesting to note, that in the last sales period, in the EXPORT market, which is the only place their biggest bikes are selling well, Royal Enfield 350s outsold RE 650s by 45%.   https://www.rushlane.com/royal-enfield-sales-exports-breakup-aug-2021-classic-650-twins-12412752.html

Maybe they are on to something?


Ove

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Reply #17 on: September 30, 2021, 08:50:56 am
I'm not doubling down on anything, just making a joke. Sorry if I upset you or anyone, didn't realise it was a sensitive issue. My apologies.

I lived and worked in India for 18 months in Pune and travelled the country. That was about 15 years ago. The country was and still is, developing rapidly. Infrastructure, such as roads, lagged behind. I love and respect the friends I made there, who would agree the road infrastructure is not what it should be and that, and local wages, dictate what they drive and ride, if they can afford that luxury. A 350cc is a large bike for the speeds you can drive in the cities. BTW, spending most of my time in cities, I chose to never get behind the wheel in India, let alone ride. You need to grow up with their rules of the road!

I enjoy bimbling on my 500 in the UK. I also have a classic Norton, which is a bit quicker, but I don't abuse it. Speed was not my point, really. I was just tickled by the irony and personally would not choose a diesel RE, for the reasons I gave. But, I'm glad we're all different.  Once again, I apologise that my posts came across in a way that upset. No malice intended.

Martin
« Last Edit: September 30, 2021, 09:19:08 am by Ove »


axman88

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Reply #18 on: September 30, 2021, 06:49:01 pm
I'm not doubling down on anything, just making a joke. Sorry if I upset you or anyone, didn't realise it was a sensitive issue. My apologies.

I lived and worked in India for 18 months in Pune and travelled the country. That was about 15 years ago. The country was and still is, developing rapidly. Infrastructure, such as roads, lagged behind. I love and respect the friends I made there, who would agree the road infrastructure is not what it should be and that, and local wages, dictate what they drive and ride, if they can afford that luxury. A 350cc is a large bike for the speeds you can drive in the cities. BTW, spending most of my time in cities, I chose to never get behind the wheel in India, let alone ride. You need to grow up with their rules of the road!

I enjoy bimbling on my 500 in the UK. I also have a classic Norton, which is a bit quicker, but I don't abuse it. Speed was not my point, really. I was just tickled by the irony and personally would not choose a diesel RE, for the reasons I gave. But, I'm glad we're all different.  Once again, I apologise that my posts came across in a way that upset. No malice intended.

Martin
No offense taken.  I thought you were joking, and I went overboard with my response.  But I do often see here in the forum a sort of cultural supremacy that I consider misguided, more than offensive.  I often find myself taking the unpopular role of pointing out that RE bikes aren't made for us in the west, and aren't intended to meet our needs or desires.

Regarding the Taurus, if the objective was to take advantage of cheap diesel fuel, which in the early 90s was around half the price of petrol, to do it quickly and expediently with an available engine, and thus satisfy a market that valued economical operation, the Taurus was quite successful.  Almost no development required, and a 8 year production run.

The RE Taurus wasn't, after all, created from a blank sheet of paper.  It's very close to the product that Sooraj Tractors had already been building for at least 5 years before Royal Enfield decided to grab a piece of the pie for themselves in 1993.  RE used the same Greaves Lombardini 325 engine, but had the capacity for much higher production numbers.  RE also fitted a larger fuel tank, some owners saying that they can nurse 1000 km from their Taurus' tank. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DaQhvOsL89c
https://www.bsmotoring.com/news/sooraj-diesel-cheap-thrills/4664/1
https://www.bikes4sale.in/notes/c/feature/2943/diesel-motorcycles-of-india-taurus-and-sooraj

At the end of the Youtube video, we see a Sooraj in action.  I think, that if my local roads consisted of the 3 meter wide, gravel track through forest that we see in the video, that heavy framed, big two wheeler, with a lawn tractor engine seems well suited to the task.  I could strap a couple of jerry cans to the back for my journey to the fuel station twice a year.

But, I don't live in rural India, and, as is the case for you, the diesel bike would be quite impractical for my urban commute.  Nevertheless, I found it interesting to read the comments on the last article I link to, which is primarily a long list of people, dated over the last few years, listing their phone numbers and expressing their desire to purchase a diesel Bullet.  Apparently people still want this machine, 20 years after it was discontinued.

Some sources say that Sooraj was modifying existing Bullets, while others say that the frames are quite different.  I don't have the eye or knowledge to discern from the limited information I find.  One thing seems clear, if the RE Taurus is rare, the Sooraj is even harder to find, but if one does want to find an example of either to buy, a trip to India seems advisable.


AzCal Retred

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Reply #19 on: October 01, 2021, 10:40:22 pm
Some internal engine footage of a diesel conversion.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8sJsYe69SFI

Local dealer...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T_9w4lF_tt0

And a turbo diesel scooter...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TddfCetTPME
« Last Edit: October 01, 2021, 10:42:58 pm by AzCal Retred »
A trifecta of Pre-Unit Bullets: a Red Deluxe 500, a Green Standard 500, and a Black ES 350.


Silverback

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Reply #20 on: October 03, 2021, 06:22:56 am
i know there are varying opinions about a diesel Enfield but i just thin they are cool.
the idea of a bike that can use varies fuel alternatives and little to no electronics appeals to me.

The more i ride my classic the more i realize that a super hot bike is a waste of time and money.   I am not going on an super long rides nor do i  feel the need for speed like i used to. 

i am opting for practicality, economy and ease of working on the bike myself.

I think the bullet diesel is a great option to fill those requirements. 

Now i just need to find one or a salvage frame to build one.

This is of course my opinion regarding my desires and no reflection on others opinions. 
2011 uce classic 500,  carb converted and trails bars.


axman88

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Reply #21 on: October 04, 2021, 05:15:43 pm
i know there are varying opinions about a diesel Enfield but i just thin they are cool.
the idea of a bike that can use varies fuel alternatives and little to no electronics appeals to me.

The more i ride my classic the more i realize that a super hot bike is a waste of time and money.   I am not going on an super long rides nor do i  feel the need for speed like i used to. 

i am opting for practicality, economy and ease of working on the bike myself.

I think the bullet diesel is a great option to fill those requirements. 

Now i just need to find one or a salvage frame to build one.
There's been some discussion on the "U-Tube" thread in the Campfire section that you might find relevant to your interest in diesel motorcycles.  It starts with this post #342, and is interspersed after that.  https://forum.classicmotorworks.com/index.php?topic=28226.msg385507#msg385507.

My suggestion is that a more appropriate conversion subject would be an IB Bullet, because these have a gearbox which is separate from the engine.  The 4 speed Albion gearboxes, that were used for years on REs prior to the 5 speed, are relatively easy to find, and inexpensive.

Another interesting suggestion was to use a variable pulley Continuously Variable Transmission.   These generally have about a 3:1 max ratio down to about 1:1 min ratio.

If you look at the thread I linked to, you can see a "character bike" build with a diesel engine that uses only a slipping belt clutch and single ratio drive, simple.

Considering other transmission / drive train options, really opens up the possible donor selections.  Any basket case with enough room for the proposed engine is a viable candidate, if you know how to weld.  If it's just for fun and showing off, one can even consider the many bikes that end up separated from their titles, over the years.
« Last Edit: October 04, 2021, 05:41:46 pm by axman88 »


axman88

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Reply #22 on: October 05, 2021, 09:07:14 am
Some Lombardini info from 2014:
https://www.smokstak.com/forum/threads/whats-a-lombardini-6ld260-worth-unknown-running-condition.139039/
" A 6LD260 is a 262cc 4.5 hp, a 6LD360 is a 359cc 7.0 hp. 6LD is the series, the suffix refers close to displacement. I own 2 6LD435 (9HP) electric start on 6500W surplus gensets. I REALLY lucked out, getting the two of them for total of $262 on gov liquidators. Each had only about 450 hours on them. Neither ran when purchased. Knowing what I do now I would pay double what I did if I got the chance to buy the same two again.
I'd pay up to maybe $175 for a 260 and perhaps $250 for a 360 in non-running but not blown or frozen condition. An hour meter reading would temper that decision a lot.
Both mine were surplus just back from the midle east. Repair consisted of completely cleanig the sand out of the fuel system and replacing flakey wiring to the two fuel shutoff solenoids and low oil pressure switch.
If you decide to go for it I have the shop manual for 6LD series from 260 to 435. (4.7mb pdf) I can upload to my gdrive and send you a link to download it. - Doc -
Here's shop manual link: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B1p7xJAXmwbWTVo5ZWw5a1kycFk/view?usp=sharing on top of page click arrow pointing at line to download.

https://iservice.lombardini.it/jsp/Template4/Product.jsp?parent=1317
Downloadable Workshop manual:
https://iservice.lombardini.it/documents/ProdCateg/1317/Work_Shop_Manual_GR_6_matr_1-5302-387.pdf

Chinese 10 HP, 3600 RPM motor, New about $400 USD.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/403121597441?hash=item5ddbeb6c01:g:~PEAAOSwuHthQ~bQ
10 HP 406cc 4-stroke Tiller Diesel Engine Single Cylinder Air Cooled Motor 186F

Thanks for the links, AzCal, lot's of good info you found.  I hope you don't mind that I responded here in this thread, it will be easier to find later, and by future searchers.

The specs I found for the RE Taurus match up pretty well with the specs for the 6LD 325 from the 1990 workshop manual.  78.0 x 68.0 mm ,  ~6.5 hp,  ~10 ft*lb torque, 88 lbs weight, 19.3" tall x 16.8" deep x 15 wide, with the fuel tank and stock air cleaner and silencer.  Stripped, it left a lot of air inside the triangle on the Taurus frame. 

Doesn't seem like it would be any great trick to fit a 6LD 435 in that same frame, the drawing shows 19.7" tall x ~17" deep x 15.2 wide, and 101lb for this larger, 86 x 75 bore * stroke,  ~9hp, ~17.5 ft*lb torque engine.
 
I've seldom seen specific fuel consumption curves published for anything but serious marine engines.  200 to 220 grams per horsepower over the useful power range of ~2000 to 3600 rpms is about 250 ml per horsepower per hour.  The 435 has even better specific fuel consumption at average 238 ml per horsepower per hour.

The 260s and 360s are the most common Lombardini's I've seen on the used market.   The fact that Kohler is still offering these models bodes well for the availability of spare parts.  I wonder how rigorous life was on an average highway sign board trailer.  I've seen a picture of an engine setup for this duty, and it was driving what looked like a standard Delco alternator.  It would be interesting to have an idea of how much lighting load was on the thing while in service. 


Carlsberg Wordsworth

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Reply #23 on: October 05, 2021, 09:35:45 pm
I've been half reading this thread and keep forgetting to upload a pic of one that was for sale at a dealership I visited in June this year.

£4,999 I think it was.


axman88

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Reply #24 on: October 06, 2021, 07:33:28 am
A video showing some of the machines that could be seen at the annual "Dieselmotorradtreffen" in Hamm, Germany, back in 2014.  An interesting collection of custom conversions, nicely restored production bikes and a few  diesel punk ratbikes thrown in for good measure.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LdPjJwE897k

To my fellow member who made a comment about the desirability of having a Lombardini single, whacking away between their legs for hours at a time, have a look at massive hunk of steel mounted on the deck of what looks to me to be a Vespa P reduced to its essentials at 3:05 in the video.   I think I'm seeing a single ratio, centrifugal clutch, belt drive.  Is that turbo boost I hear?

Arguably, the big exposed flywheel and the mass of the engine, makes it a more pleasant and practical power source than the light, oversquare, alloy Lombardini design, as long as the flywheel stays in one piece, anyway.


Silverback

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Reply #25 on: October 07, 2021, 06:41:08 am
I've been half reading this thread and keep forgetting to upload a pic of one that was for sale at a dealership I visited in June this year.

£4,999 I think it was.

nice looking bike. tastefully done.
2011 uce classic 500,  carb converted and trails bars.


Silverback

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Reply #26 on: October 10, 2021, 07:01:17 am
I have an old ural frame with a rs100 engine.

I cant seem to find a donor  Enfield so I think I  going to change the rs100 to a diesel. The frame is more than big enough.

It's been sitting in my garage waiting for me to fix it. 

It was put in the ural frame to haul a side car years back

I already have a bmw r50/5 that I am getting running so it looks like the rs100 will have a new face lift.

Once I get the r50/5 backup and running I plan to sell it to fund the build.

Looks like it's going to be an interesting year.  Lol
2011 uce classic 500,  carb converted and trails bars.


Richard230

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Reply #27 on: October 10, 2021, 01:39:28 pm
I have an old ural frame with a rs100 engine.

I cant seem to find a donor  Enfield so I think I  going to change the rs100 to a diesel. The frame is more than big enough.

It's been sitting in my garage waiting for me to fix it. 

It was put in the ural frame to haul a side car years back

I already have a bmw r50/5 that I am getting running so it looks like the rs100 will have a new face lift.

Once I get the r50/5 backup and running I plan to sell it to fund the build.

Looks like it's going to be an interesting year.  Lol

I will have to agree with you there.   :)  I don't think I have ever heard of a diesel BMW-anything before.  ???
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Silverback

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Reply #28 on: October 10, 2021, 08:44:04 pm
there are many video's out there.  but this one has my attention. 

https://youtu.be/qVBLeJthhU4?list=LL
2011 uce classic 500,  carb converted and trails bars.


Richard230

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Reply #29 on: October 10, 2021, 10:34:55 pm
there are many video's out there.  but this one has my attention. 

https://youtu.be/qVBLeJthhU4?list=LL

I am impressed. That is a very clean conversion.  :)  That guy is certainly loaded for bear. Not only does he have rifle magazines on his front forks, but he also has a bandoleer of ammunition under his jacket and even a WWII German potato-masher grenade in his luggage box.  :o
« Last Edit: October 10, 2021, 11:11:27 pm by Richard230 »
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