[lucky phil]

Hoghead brake upgrade rotor:

Some Ducati models have the same bolt pattern as Enfield, and the new generation Supersport has an Enfield pattern rotor, with the same 320mm diameter.    Coincidentally, I own a Ducati Supersport S, so while this was my first rotor consideration, I decided on a Ducati Scrambler rotor, due to better clearance and a larger diameter.  This rotor is common to all the Scrambler 800 models to date.

The Scrambler 330mm rotor moves the calliper 5mm further away from the axle, where spoke clearance is greater. While every little bit helps with spoke clearance, important advantages of the larger diameter rotor are the longer lever arm, yielding 3.125% greater applied torque compared to the stock 320mm rotor, and better heat dissipation.   This gain in applied brake torque due to the larger rotor, is in addition to that provided by the calliper upgrade. 

Think of trying to stop the wheel from spinning by pinching it close to the axle and then pinching as far as possible away from the axle - clearly it is easier to stop the wheel when the calliper is furthest outboard.  A Buell perimeter brake is a good example in implementation of the longer lever arm concept on a motorcycle.

More brake for slower steering. Swings and roundabouts.

Ciao

[Hog Head]

More brake for slower steering. Swings and roundabouts.

Ciao

Yes, but in this case I would go for more brake as the weight difference between an OEM Brembo 320mm and 330mm rotor is not a concern on my Enfield.
I too am interested in the total system unsprung weight difference, and have been meaning to weigh all the stock VS upgrade parts for a total weight difference.  Will do so and post pics of all the components when I have more time

I would have thought that Brembo P4-30/34 calliper would be heavier than the stock Bybre.  Mrs. Hoghead was out when I used her baking scale...........

If unsprung weight is a concern, and cost does not matter, there are lighter 330mm rotors with aluminium carriers and wave designs.  Part of this brake upgrade project is to do it at a reasonable cost using readily available new or used parts.  A Ducati Scrambler 800 rotor is readily available and I bought one with 5000 miles for 100 USD. 
If cost was not an option, there is always the Beringer upgrade kit

[danketchpel]

Yes, but in this case I would go for more brake as the weight difference between an OEM Brembo 320mm and 330mm rotor is not a concern on my Enfield.
I too am interested in the total system unsprung weight difference, and have been meaning to weigh all the stock VS upgrade parts for a total weight difference.  Will do so and post pics of all the components when I have more time

I would have thought that Brembo P4-30/34 calliper would be heavier than the stock Bybre.  Mrs. Hoghead was out when I used her baking scale...........

If unsprung weight is a concern, and cost does not matter, there are lighter 330mm rotors with aluminium carriers and wave designs.  Part of this brake upgrade project is to do it at a reasonable cost using readily available new or used parts.  A Ducati Scrambler 800 rotor is readily available and I bought one with 5000 miles for 100 USD. 
If cost was not an option, there is always the Beringer upgrade kit

What's your thoughts on running the Brembo P4 30/34 caliper on the stock rotor? This is more in terms of physical mounting of the caliper and spoke clearance. Also, do you have a part number or mounting bolt hole spacing / source OE bike for that caliper?

I can machine the mounting adapter.

I'm considering a 4 pot caliper with some good HH pads upgrade along with a radial master cylinder. I think that should suffice. From my past brake upgrades I know the radial M/C makes nearly as much difference as the caliper upgrade. I'd use either Brembo or Nissin for the M/C

BTW, I have a 2017 Ducati Desert Sled so I'm familiar with that brake setup. I think it's more than I need for the RE.

[Hog Head]

Royal Enfield brake upgrade callipers:

Standard, readily available, Brembo P4 four piston callipers with a 65mm axial mount are used in this upgrade, with the stock hydraulic line.  There are 2 versions of the P4 calliper:

      The P4-30/34 uses (2 x 30) + (2 x 34mm) pistons, and 2 pads for a 6.9% increase in piston area compared to stock.  Not a great improvement ion piston area, but with the 3.125% torque gain with the larger rotor, EBC-HH pads, better 4 piston calliper design, and the Brembo radial master cylinder, it is a marked improvement over stock. Given street tire limitations, most riders would be happy with this lower cost approach, while high GVW, hack riders, track use, or bench racers might want the P4-34.

      The P4-34 uses 4 x 34mm pistons, 4 individual pads, and a more rigid triple bridge design.  Clamping force is in part a function of piston area, so not only is the 34/34 version more “powerful” but additional initial bite is provided by the 4 pad configuration.  This 34mm calliper has a 20.2% greater piston area than stock. Add the 3.125% torque gain with the larger rotor and this is a significant improvement. 

By means of comparison, the Beringer Enfield upgrade kit 6 piston (6 x 29) axial calliper has a 34.1% greater piston area than stock.  There is however no additional torque gain from the rotor as it is the same stock 320mm diameter. 
The Beringer 4 piston axial calliper (4 x 27) kit has 24.2% less piston area than the stock Enfield.  Rotor diameter is the same at 320mm. 

[Hog Head]

What's your thoughts on running the Brembo P4 30/34 caliper on the stock rotor? This is more in terms of physical mounting of the caliper and spoke clearance. Also, do you have a part number or mounting bolt hole spacing / source OE bike for that caliper?

I can machine the mounting adapter.

I'm considering a 4 pot caliper with some good HH pads upgrade along with a radial master cylinder. I think that should suffice. From my past brake upgrades I know the radial M/C makes nearly as much difference as the caliper upgrade. I'd use either Brembo or Nissin for the M/C

BTW, I have a 2017 Ducati Desert Sled so I'm familiar with that brake setup. I think it's more than I need for the RE.

Since the MC is a key upgrade component, I would do this first, along with EBC-HH compound pads in the stock calliper(s) and then decide if you want to continue down the upgrade path.  Take a look at the Brembo RCS series of radial master, as unlike the Nissin it has an adjustable internal ratio.  The more expensive version even has an adjustable bite point.  Head and shoulders above Nissin in performance, and a very good reason why these are the track favourite. 

The Brembo P4-30/34 x 65mm axial mount calliper I bought for this upgrade development was off a Guzzi V7 and had Brembo FF compound pads. 
Pads were binned and EBC-HH used for development.   While there are likely lots of OEM applications, these callipers are common various Ducati, Aprilia, and Guzzi models. 

The P4-30/34 has only 6.9% greater piston area than stock, and very similar in piston area to your M4.32 Desert Sled calliper. If using the stock Enfield 320mm rotor, you do not have the additional 3.125% brake torque from the Scramblers larger 330mm rotor.  The torque gain of the larger rotor, is one reason why I chose the larger 330mm rotor for the Royal Enfield brake upgrade. 

The other reason for the 330mm rotor is calliper clearance at the spokes.  In order to get comfortable spoke clearance, you will have to space the rotor outboard to the point that rotor bolt head clearance at the fork leg is an issue.  I do not like to shave the calliper, or compromise spoke clearance, so a larger diameter rotor is an obvious solution.  In the scheme of things, the cost of a rotor is not a deal breaker, and if you can find a low km one for 100 USD like I did then an easy decision.  The additional increase on brake torque provided by the larger rotor is a bonous. 

[Hog Head]

I am excited to see what you come up with. I dont know if you are familiar with this motorcycle, but someone has already done something similar and you can use it as inspiration. I know I would love to have this upgrade on mine.

https://www.returnofthecaferacers.com/royal-enfield-cafe-racer/harris-gt650/

The image below will show you the front brake setup. I would love to know how to mount something like this on stock forks 




_____________________

Another reference. I follow this channel quite a bit as he has very tasteful mods and discusses the brake upgrade issue. This could be something you could do instead of caliper.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NSAWxQXiDP0

No ABS and he tells me that it cost 75% of the bike.  My upgrade mod uses stock, readily available Brembo rotor, calliper, and master cylinder, with the stock fork and yokes.  I only had to design and machine a few small parts to make it work. 

[danketchpel]

Since the MC is a key upgrade component, I would do this first, along with EBC-HH compound pads in the stock calliper(s) and then decide if you want to continue down the upgrade path.  Take a look at the Brembo RCS series of radial master, as unlike the Nissin it has an adjustable internal ratio.  The more expensive version even has an adjustable bite point.  Head and shoulders above Nissin in performance, and a very good reason why these are the track favourite. 

The Brembo P4-30/34 x 65mm axial mount calliper I bought for this upgrade development was off a Guzzi V7 and had Brembo FF compound pads. 
Pads were binned and EBC-HH used for development.   While there are likely lots of OEM applications, these callipers are common various Ducati, Aprilia, and Guzzi models. 

The P4-30/34 has only 6.9% greater piston area than stock, and very similar in piston area to your M4.32 Desert Sled calliper. If using the stock Enfield 320mm rotor, you do not have the additional 3.125% brake torque from the Scramblers larger 330mm rotor.  The torque gain of the larger rotor, is one reason why I chose the larger 330mm rotor for the Royal Enfield brake upgrade. 

The other reason for the 330mm rotor is calliper clearance at the spokes.  In order to get comfortable spoke clearance, you will have to space the rotor outboard to the point that rotor bolt head clearance at the fork leg is an issue.  I do not like to shave the calliper, or compromise spoke clearance, so a larger diameter rotor is an obvious solution.  In the scheme of things, the cost of a rotor is not a deal breaker, and if you can find a low km one for 100 USD like I did then an easy decision.  The additional increase on brake torque provided by the larger rotor is a bonous.

Thanks for the feedback.

I hadn't considered spoke clearance, given that the larger 330mm rotor makes good sense.

I dropped in some Galfer HH pads in the front and EBC HH pads in the rear last weekend just to kick it up a notch. It has better bite with some extra stopping power, but feel is about as expected given the rest of the hardware. But for the cost and ease well worth doing.

I'll probably start scouting around for the rotor and P4 30/34 caliper, plus take a look at the M/C. I'm not in a hurry, plus I've got a Desert Sled and V7 850 in the garage to take a look at those parts.

The brakes on the V7 are definitely better stock to stock, in fact I'd be reasonably happy to duplicate that setup. Even when I get done with the 865 kit + Stage 2 cam it's not going to be any faster than my V7 850 (~65 hp) anyway so that's enough stopping power.

Honestly, with just the pad upgrade the stopping is sufficient for the stock INT650, but it certainly lacks feel.

[Hog Head]

Thanks for the feedback.

I hadn't considered spoke clearance, given that the larger 330mm rotor makes good sense.

I dropped in some Galfer HH pads in the front and EBC HH pads in the rear last weekend just to kick it up a notch. It has better bite with some extra stopping power, but feel is about as expected given the rest of the hardware. But for the cost and ease well worth doing.

I'll probably start scouting around for the rotor and P4 30/34 caliper, plus take a look at the M/C. I'm not in a hurry, plus I've got a Desert Sled and V7 850 in the garage to take a look at those parts.

The brakes on the V7 are definitely better stock to stock, in fact I'd be reasonably happy to duplicate that setup. Even when I get done with the 865 kit + Stage 2 cam it's not going to be any faster than my V7 850 (~65 hp) anyway so that's enough stopping power.

Honestly, with just the pad upgrade the stopping is sufficient for the stock INT650, but it certainly lacks feel.

Feel is a huge part of modern braking, and a primary advantage of the Brembo radial MC with adjustable ratio - you already have the HH pads.
Unfortunately there is just no way to obtain the feel you are used to, and after, without a 4 pot calliper.

[Hog Head]

Royal Enfield brake upgrade now has a Facebook page:
https://www.facebook.com/Royal-Enfield-brake-upgrade-112546374592213/posts/115264954320355/?ref=notif

[danketchpel]

Feel is a huge part of modern braking, and a primary advantage of the Brembo radial MC with adjustable ratio - you already have the HH pads.
Unfortunately there is just no way to obtain the feel you are used to, and after, without a 4 pot caliper.

Yup, I agree, a 4 pot caliper and radial M/C are critical if you want really nice feel.

You can get decent feel with a 4 pot caliper and a good axial M/C but it won't feel as "tight", and won't have the leverage.

But you also have to assess your goals and the greater overall picture and see that it makes sense. I'm not going for total top shelf on my RE, just much better than stock. As I said, if I can get it as good as the stock brakes on my V7 850 that's good 'nuff. I have bikes with better but each makes sense to the application, even if stock and well engineered/spec'd.

I really appreciate your input and sharing what you've done.

[Hog Head]

Rev 4 of the Brembo upgrade is done and on my bike now.  I still need to find some M10 x 1.25 high tensile bolts for the bracket to calliper, and powdercoat the bracket black, but this is the kit version.
Calliper is a P4/34 on a 330mm rotor

[Hog Head]

The 330mm rotor is needed for calliper clearance

[danketchpel]

Rev 4 of the Brembo upgrade is done and on my bike now.  I still need to find some M10 x 1.25 high tensile bolts for the bracket to calliper, and powdercoat the bracket black, but this is the kit version.
Calliper is a P4/34 on a 330mm rotor

What are you thinking for kit pricing?

I am interested in the kit.

[Hog Head]

What are you thinking for kit pricing?

I am interested in the kit.

250 USD in billet aluminium finish for the kit parts including air mail to the US or Canada

You will need to buy:
Brembo 330mm rotor from a Ducati Scrambler
Brembo P4-34 calliper x 65mm axial mount
Brembo RCS15 radial master cylinder with reservoir, input fitting, and switch

[Hog Head]

1 kit left and I will not be making more
250 USD including post cost worldwide
You have to buy the Brembo calliper, rotor, and master cylinder