Author Topic: Low priced electric motorcycle? - Sondors Metacycle  (Read 8913 times)

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AzCal Retred

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Reply #15 on: March 01, 2021, 09:24:19 pm
"The bataclitor sound like something the U.S. Navy could use to power their not-quite-ready-for-prime-time rail guns."
R230 - I think you got the "personal massage unit" version corn-fused with the "batacitor", the imaginary power supply for the Navy's imaginary rail guns and imaginary anti-missile laser system... ;D ;D ;D
Didn't the Army have some tow-behind-an-Abrams, generator/cryomagnetic charge storing superconductive magnet/rail-gun General Dynamics profit centre also? Sort of a multi-billion dollar way to make your Abrams into a training target for the OpFor? Well, at least we still have the old reliable supercavitating torpedo, right?
https://www.militaryaerospace.com/test/article/14182169/torpedo-supercavitating-200-knots
https://news.yahoo.com/supercavitating-torpedoes-biggest-threat-u-183000084.html#:~:text=Supercavitating%20torpedos%20are%20rocket%2Dpropelled,envelops%20the%20torpedo%20almost%20completely.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supercavitating_torpedo
https://www.quora.com/Why-has-the-United-States-not-created-a-supercavitating-torpedo-If-they-have-why-has-it-not-been-distributed-throughout-their-subs

The Kursk was thought to have been carrying these torpedoes when it sank. There was a "Frontline" news program on possible US submarine involvement a few years back, but I can find no trace of that article now. It's pretty unlikely that these torpedoes aren't already part of the arsenal, as they were under test in the 1970's by the US Navy. At the very least a fast, noisy torpedo approaching an enemy target at 200 knots would provide good cover for the shooter to escape & evade; the target would most certainly be preoccupied...

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Richard230

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Reply #16 on: March 01, 2021, 10:14:52 pm
"The bataclitor sound like something the U.S. Navy could use to power their not-quite-ready-for-prime-time rail guns."
R230 - I think you got the "personal massage unit" version corn-fused with the "batacitor", the imaginary power supply for the Navy's imaginary rail guns and imaginary anti-missile laser system... ;D ;D ;D
Didn't the Army have some tow-behind-an-Abrams, generator/cryomagnetic charge storing superconductive magnet/rail-gun General Dynamics profit centre also? Sort of a multi-billion dollar way to make your Abrams into a training target for the OpFor? Well, at least we still have the old reliable supercavitating torpedo, right?
https://www.militaryaerospace.com/test/article/14182169/torpedo-supercavitating-200-knots
https://news.yahoo.com/supercavitating-torpedoes-biggest-threat-u-183000084.html#:~:text=Supercavitating%20torpedos%20are%20rocket%2Dpropelled,envelops%20the%20torpedo%20almost%20completely.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supercavitating_torpedo
https://www.quora.com/Why-has-the-United-States-not-created-a-supercavitating-torpedo-If-they-have-why-has-it-not-been-distributed-throughout-their-subs

The Kursk was thought to have been carrying these torpedoes when it sank. There was a "Frontline" news program on possible US submarine involvement a few years back, but I can find no trace of that article now. It's pretty unlikely that these torpedoes aren't already part of the arsenal, as they were under test in the 1970's by the US Navy. At the very least a fast, noisy torpedo approaching an enemy target at 200 knots would provide good cover for the shooter to escape & evade; the target would most certainly be preoccupied...

When my son-in-law was working on his doctorate studying plasma energy physics at the University of Washington during the late 1990's he had a classmate who when he graduated went to work for Boeing. He helped them develop a tail-gun laser that was installed in a 747, which I believe was shot a few times after the turn of the century. Maybe as a last gasp part of the Star Wars project?  However, I don't think anything came of the idea other than documenting lots of problems that needed (a lot) more research.  ;)
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Richard230

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Reply #17 on: March 01, 2021, 11:48:51 pm
When my son-in-law was working on his doctorate studying plasma energy physics at the University of Washington during the late 1990's he had a classmate who when he graduated went to work for Boeing. He helped them develop a tail-gun laser that was installed in a 747, which I believe was shot a few times after the turn of the century. Maybe as a last gasp part of the Star Wars project?  However, I don't think anything came of the idea other than documenting lots of problems that needed (a lot) more research.  ;)

However, I just saw a YouTube report that came out today saying that Boeing did get the laser to work with chemical power about 10 years ago and now the Air Force is developing a aircraft mounted laser pod that has been shown to work against missiles, but it sounds to me like it needs more development and lots more money to put it into production.
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Nitrowing

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Reply #18 on: March 02, 2021, 12:22:20 am
developing a aircraft mounted laser pod that has been shown to work against missiles.

Until they chrome-plate the missiles?  :o
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AzCal Retred

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Reply #19 on: March 02, 2021, 12:43:48 am
Years back General Dynamics rolled this crystal-nosed 747 bad boy out and said "Hey everyone, we're going to do infrared spectrophotometry!". About two weeks later the cover story fell apart. Wikipaedia sez that in 2014 the project was dismantled and the "Usable parts were removed". No word on where they went, hopefully not to Craigs List... :o
The Rooskies apparently don't think the concept was too far offbase, as they are still working hard at it.
Where one of these would REALLY work is above the atmosphere...
https://arstechnica.com/science/2020/12/a-piece-of-nasa-history-has-re-entered-earths-orbit-after-54-years/
What a cool special project for the XB37, eh? A 1960's era "duck blind" filled up with a COIL laser.
https://www.space.com/25275-x37b-space-plane.html
The amateur astronomy folks found this jewel by accident about 15-20 years back, tracked it, calculated an orbit, did some spectrophotometry on it and found paint. All eyes then turned to NASA and asked "Whazzat?" Nasa says "We'll get back to you". A few weeks pass. Finally they say "Oh, we forgot - we lost a booster..." By then the "booster" had apparently maneuvered away from it's plotted orbit...?!?...as the amateur folks had lost it. Dimensions are about 10'-12' in diameter and 35'-40' long, depending on which version it was.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_YAL-1

https://www.airforce-technology.com/projects/abl/

https://defpost.com/russia-completes-development-airborne-anti-satellite-laser-weapon/
The Russian A-60 project is comparable with the American airborne laser project that was based on the YAL-1 Airborne Laser Test Bed (ALTB). ALTB uses a megawatt-class chemical oxygen iodine laser (COIL) mounted inside a modified Boeing 747-400F.
YAL-1A project was is primarily designed as a missile defense system to destroy tactical ballistic missiles (TBMs) while in boost phase whereas the Russian project is designed as anti-satellite weapon (ASAT).


https://www.nasa.gov/feature/new-data-confirm-2020-so-to-be-the-upper-centaur-rocket-booster-from-the-1960-s
« Last Edit: March 02, 2021, 12:59:05 am by AzCal Retred »
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axman88

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Reply #20 on: March 02, 2021, 07:46:08 pm
I'll attempt to pull this thread back onto discussion of electric motorcycles, with discussion of some other machines that might fill the same niche as the Sondors.

Reviewing the specs for the Sondors Metacycle:
            ~200 lbs curb weight
             cast aluminum frame, 52" wheelbase
             17" wheels, 31.5" seat height
             8 kW nom. (14.5kW peak) Hub motor
             130 ft-lbs max torque
             72 volt, 4000 watt-hr battery is removable
             claimed recharge time 4 hrs, recharge at public, Level 2 stations, or 120V outlet
             Claimed range 80 miles, (likely rated at ~25mph, expect 1/2 that at highway speed)
             Claimed max speed 80mph.
             Introductory price $5000

Let's look at other machines available that are roughly in the same class as the Sondors is expected to be, starting with the Super Soco TCmax:
             ~220 lbs curb weight
             52.5" wheelbase
             17" wheels, 30.3" seat height
             3.9 kW nom. (5kW peak) mid motor with belt drive
             132 ft-lbs max torque
             72 volt, 3240 watt-hr battery is removable
             claimed recharge time 8-9 hrs, standard charge, 240VAC charging capable
             Claimed range 69 miles.
             Claimed max speed 59 mph.
             Current price $5100

REF:           
https://en.vmotosoco.com/tcmax-overview/performance/
https://electrek.co/2018/11/07/super-soco-electric-motorcycle/
https://urbanebikes.com/products/tc-max-62mph-deposit

It appears that the TCMax has been in production for a couple of years, and is being sold at right around the $5k price point, that Sondors has targeted.  As an urban commuter, or suburban roadster, where a rider's driving pattern involves many days with less than 50 miles of travel, I think a machine like this could fit the bill admirably.

As gas prices continue to inch upwards, and especially for those whose machines require premium, the fuel cost of operating gasoline powered machines can easily be the major component of the vehicle.  Since I drive used cars, fuel cost is by far the largest component of the total cost of a vehicle.   I'll do a simple calculation comparing some options for a hypothetic 40 miles a day, urban commuter:

Peter drives a Jeep Grand Cherokee, and gets 20mpg with regular gasoline, he works 50 weeks a year, and commutes 5 days a week, 40 miles a day.  Over a year's time, that's  10,000 miles.   At 20 miles per gallon, that's 500 gallons.  At $2.50/gallon Peter is spending $1250 per year on fuel, not a lot considering a new Jeep Grand Cherokee costs around $35k to drive out of the showroom.

Paul rides a 20 year old Honda motorcycle, that a neighbor gave him for free and he fixed up to be reliable.  He rides it everyday to work, rain or shine, and has the same 40 mile commute as Peter.  Paul's bike requires premium fuel, at $3.50/gallon, and gets 40 miles per gallon.  This is pretty typical performance for full sized bikes from the late carburetor period, but Paul is content, because the bike cost him nothing to purchase.  His 10,000 miles of riding each year, cost him (10,000/40 * $3.50) = $875.

Mary is also a motorcycle rider, but she rides a new electric motorcycle.  She rides 40 miles a day, then recharges at home in the evening.  Her charger adds about 2.5kwatt-hour of power each time she recharges, and she pays 15 cents per kwatt-hour.  Mary's 10,000 miles of commuting each year cost her ( 10,000 / 40 x (2.5 x $.15)) = $94.

If Mary bought her machine for $5000, it takes only 6-1/2 years of riding, before she has paid for her bike, and is saving money, relative to Paul's free Honda, assuming that no change occurs in the price of energy.

Of course, this simplified calculation totally neglects the fact that a battery pack is only good for a limited number of recharge cycles, and battery packs aren't inexpensive.  https://urbanebikes.com/products/super-soco-additional-battery?variant=36343893000356

I think this calculation will move increasingly towards favoring the E-motos, as the technology becomes more widespread, and therefore cheaper, and as the cost differential between petrol energy and electricity widens.  I expect both to happen, and at an increasing rate.


Nitrowing

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Reply #21 on: March 02, 2021, 08:55:47 pm

I think this calculation will move increasingly towards favoring the E-motos, as the technology becomes more widespread, and therefore cheaper, and as the cost differential between petrol energy and electricity widens.  I expect both to happen, and at an increasing rate.
The upside of having a detachable cycle battery is charging at work!
No wonder we no longer have a motor industry


Richard230

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Reply #22 on: March 02, 2021, 10:32:41 pm
I wish we paid only 15 cents a kWh in California. I pay 25 cents at the lowest tier and my newspaper today said that the price of power would be going up over 8% next month, with more increases for later this year.  >:(

Here is what seems like a decent city electric motorcycle at a really cheap price and if you live in the 48 US states they will ship it to your door:  https://cscmotorcycles.com/city-slicker-black/
« Last Edit: March 02, 2021, 10:45:39 pm by Richard230 »
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AzCal Retred

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Reply #23 on: March 03, 2021, 01:31:54 am
Install enough PV to cover your net usage and you won't care what the per KWH cost is. Install a bit over that and your electric vehicles will have no power cost. PV is cheap and outlasts the owner. Go net-metering and let the Utility be your "battery".
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axman88

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Reply #24 on: March 03, 2021, 08:22:54 am
I wish we paid only 15 cents a kWh in California. I pay 25 cents at the lowest tier and my newspaper today said that the price of power would be going up over 8% next month, with more increases for later this year.  >:(

The internet said that 13 cents/ kwh is the national average.  I pay a bit more here too, but the flat rate delivery charges are how they get us, it's half the bill some months, this billing structure dis-incentivizes economizing.

Here is what seems like a decent city electric motorcycle at a really cheap price and if you live in the 48 US states they will ship it to your door:  https://cscmotorcycles.com/city-slicker-black/
The CSC is a cute little bike, and I like the mid motor, but not fond of 12" wheels or the tiny 49" wheelbase.
The City Slicker's weight is 216 lbs and top speed is 46 mph.  Range on the 72V 26AH (1.9 kW-hr) battery is ~45-50 miles for in-city, mixed speed riding.  Motor is belt drive 1.5 kW nom, 3.2 kW max.   I didn't find a torque spec, but it looks pretty peppy in the videos and is described as torquey in this review.  https://electrek.co/2019/04/04/review-csc-city-slicker-electric-motorcycle/

CSC also came out recently with an electric scooter styled after a Honda Cub.  The Monterrey is priced at just $2K, and uses a Hub motor (1.5 kW nom, 2.4 kW max) instead of the belt drive.  Torque is 88ft/lb.  It also carries a smaller battery, 60V26Ah  (1.56 kW-hr)  but nets about the same range.  Weight is 158 lb.  With its 17" wheels, the bike looks bigger and more comfortable than the City Slicker to me, although the speed is more limited.   https://cscmotorcycles.com/csc-monterrey-electric-scooter/

The City Slicker review I linked to, discusses how the owner modified his power output by changing the software in the controller.  I saw this done in a video about a PEBL micro bicycle car, (https://www.better.bike/)  wherein the owner boosted power output by 67% by downloading a new controller configuration profile from his laptop.  I think that loads of additional power could be unlocked from some of the vehicles being sold as Class 2 & Class 3 electric bicycles.  Some of these are starting to show up for sale with motors capable of higher power output than the mandated 750W, and the speed electronically limited by the controller. 




Nitrowing

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Reply #25 on: March 03, 2021, 01:28:01 pm

CSC also came out recently with an electric scooter styled after a Honda Cub.  The Monterrey is priced at just $2K, and uses a Hub motor (1.5 kW nom, 2.4 kW max) instead of the belt drive.  Torque is 88ft/lb.  It also carries a smaller battery, 60V26Ah  (1.56 kW-hr)  but nets about the same range.  Weight is 158 lb.  With its 17" wheels, the bike looks bigger and more comfortable than the City Slicker to me, although the speed is more limited.   https://cscmotorcycles.com/csc-monterrey-electric-scooter/

That's pretty much perfect  8)
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AzCal Retred

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Reply #26 on: March 04, 2021, 03:51:12 am
Here's a full suspension mountain e-bike with fat tyres, dual motors and dual batteries, capable of carrying 400 pounds. Range stock should be maybe 100 miles on the street. If the "NewEnergy" batteries were grafted on, you'd add maybe 60 pounds but triple the amp hours and mileage. Maybe a 250-300 mile range? A $4k bike and another $2k of batteries "ain't cheep" but the idea here was to go a reasonable distance electrically. This is kind of a "Trail 90" with an appetite for electrons.

https://ecells.com/product/e-cells-super-monarch-crown-awd-1500-watt-52v-off-road-e-bike/
E-Cells Super Monarch™ Crown AWD 1500 Off-Road E-Bike
This baby packs out a total of 400lbs not including the bike! Runs up to 2200-watts of peak power with our twin motor, twin battery, and twin suspension design. No other manufacturer in the world offers all these features. We went to Bafang and had built special front and rear 52v750w motors. They have never built one of these motors except now for E-Cells. Another first for E-Cells! This bike has an 18 MOSFET controller that blasts out over 44 amps of power! That’s a total peak power of 2200 watts certified!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ecs9oTg7NAY
Super Monarch e-bike: 30 MPH, 2 motors & 2 batteries!

The Super Monarch ain't edzakary a murdercycle, but range might be interesting if these batteries were grafted on:
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08JPY49RQ/ref=twister_B08VWHPR4V?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1
NewEnergy Ebike Battery 48V 10AH-50AH Lithium ion / LiFePO4 Battery Pack with 5A Charger and 50A BMS for 3000W-350W Motor
42 pounds, 14" x 7" x 8" 48V, 50 AH, about $900 each... :o
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olhogrider

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Reply #27 on: March 04, 2021, 11:28:01 pm
I don't need another bike, so I just bought TWO! Ok, not electric motorcycles but e-bikes. Motorcycle styled with headlight, taillight, fenders and the batteries in a faux gas tank. They are legal in the national park nearby (since 2019) and on local bike paths. I learned a lot about e-bikes this week. Should be a fun alternative to motorcycles at times, and maybe even cause me to exercise a little.

They should be shipped soon.


axman88

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Reply #28 on: March 05, 2021, 01:45:43 am
I don't need another bike, so I just bought TWO! Ok, not electric motorcycles but e-bikes. Motorcycle styled with headlight, taillight, fenders and the batteries in a faux gas tank. They are legal in the national park nearby (since 2019) and on local bike paths. I learned a lot about e-bikes this week. Should be a fun alternative to motorcycles at times, and maybe even cause me to exercise a little.
I hope you start a thread on your new e-bicycles, and share with us some of the experience.

It was announced late last years, that various federal agencies have proposed new and less restrictive rules regarding "low speed electric bicycles", and bicycles in general.    https://www.doi.gov/pressreleases/trump-administration-paves-way-more-people-experience-bicycling-public-lands

They can be ridden on many bike trails, and in parks, many places that motorcycles can't legally go.

I find it very attractive that these e-bicycle machines are not required to be registered, not required to be insured, and the operator is not required to be licensed.  For older riders, or for those who for various reasons, may be at risk of having to forfeit their legal driving privileges, these vehicles may be a viable alternative.

Another interesting thing that seems to be going on right now, is that motor sizes in E-bicycles being offered for sale here in the US are going up.  It seems that the way the law is written, manufacturers are able and willing to deliver machines that have motors much larger than the federally mandated 750 watts, and to limit the power using the controller.  These motors are almost universally permanent magnet brushless DC motors, with speed and power controlled by the signals to the various windings.   It appears that in some cases, changing the power output is as simple as uploading a new set of parameters to the software in the controller.

Most of the machines that I point to in this thread,  https://forum.classicmotorworks.com/index.php?topic=29844.0  have 3000 watt motors, and one is slated to be released with a 10kW motor.  I would think that 5 to 10 horsepower, in a bicycle that weighs less than 90 lbs, could make for some pretty interesting riding. 

I am seriously reconsidering what the vehicle that I choose for "recreational riding" might look like.  3 hours spent on a motorcycle, riding the highway, will cost me $10 to $15.  I'll probably see the same section of highway that I've seen 100 times before, and encounter nobody.  3 hours spent riding an e-bike, just about anywhere EXCEPT the highway, will cost me 30 cents in electricity and I may well encounter all sorts of humans and animals, and sights that I haven't seen before.  I love my RE thumper, but if you've ever driven Chicago streets on a Saturday afternoon, you will know it's nothing that can be called "relaxing".

Note that the federal definition of "low speed electric bicycle" also includes 3 wheelers.  We are seeing the development of some interesting, lightweight, semi or fully enclosed, micro cars.
     https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uos7H4ZFA48
     https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=maknz8GBVQI
     https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FoPc1ezMHmM
My hunch is that these enclosed shapes, will have far superior aero drag-shedding performance vs traditional bicycle shapes, and that for higher speed, long distance travel, trading weight for drag, might be key to achieving longer range.  It will probably take longer than I can anticipate being around for eggs to be accepted by the moto market, but I wouldn't be surprised if eggs outnumber motorcycles on the highways of the future.

Another interesting thing to consider, is that some 4 wheeled vehicles, can meet the legal requirement of "personal mobility device", like this fun looking, e-vehicle that can be equipped with its own solar charging panels:
     https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cC_ZRnMzZ_s


axman88

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Reply #29 on: March 05, 2021, 02:50:08 am
Here's a full suspension mountain e-bike with fat tyres, dual motors and dual batteries, capable of carrying 400 pounds. Range stock should be maybe 100 miles on the street. If the "NewEnergy" batteries were grafted on, you'd add maybe 60 pounds but triple the amp hours and mileage. Maybe a 250-300 mile range? A $4k bike and another $2k of batteries "ain't cheep" but the idea here was to go a reasonable distance electrically. This is kind of a "Trail 90" with an appetite for electrons.

https://ecells.com/product/e-cells-super-monarch-crown-awd-1500-watt-52v-off-road-e-bike/
E-Cells Super Monarch™ Crown AWD 1500 Off-Road E-Bike
This baby packs out a total of 400lbs not including the bike! Runs up to 2200-watts of peak power with our twin motor, twin battery, and twin suspension design. No other manufacturer in the world offers all these features. We went to Bafang and had built special front and rear 52v750w motors. They have never built one of these motors except now for E-Cells. Another first for E-Cells! This bike has an 18 MOSFET controller that blasts out over 44 amps of power! That’s a total peak power of 2200 watts certified!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ecs9oTg7NAY
Super Monarch e-bike: 30 MPH, 2 motors & 2 batteries!

The Super Monarch ain't edzakary a murdercycle, but range might be interesting if these batteries were grafted on:
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08JPY49RQ/ref=twister_B08VWHPR4V?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1
NewEnergy Ebike Battery 48V 10AH-50AH Lithium ion / LiFePO4 Battery Pack with 5A Charger and 50A BMS for 3000W-350W Motor
42 pounds, 14" x 7" x 8" 48V, 50 AH, about $900 each... :o

I'm thinking that as the practical top speed comes down, the need for range comes down as well.  It's hard to imagine wanting to stay in the saddle of a machine like this for more than 6 or 8 hours.  So, 250 mile range at the 30mph top speed would give 8 hours and after that it's time to rest and recharge.

Seems like shedding some weight including the fat tires and the 2nd motor, going to skinnier, higher pressure tires, and staying on well paved roads, would be a better formula for long range travel?  The ECells machines seem more suited to offroad, although I agree that a high load capacity is important for packing on more batteries.  Maybe a three wheeled recumbent that reduces the drag profile of the rider, puts the weight down low, and incorporates a fairing?  Getting back the "egg" micro cars, I guess.

I was wondering about the effect of a front wheel hub motor on stability?  It seems to me that, unless the motors are somehow syncronized, having torque applied to the front hub, that, especially on an off road machine, might be inclined to find itself turned at some odd angle, and bearing down on loose gravel or slippery rock, might be a recipe for a faceplant.   Are these front / rear motor setups synchonized?