Author Topic: More H-D production drama  (Read 6964 times)

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Richard230

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Reply #15 on: October 25, 2019, 10:40:45 pm
I have put about 30K miles on 5 electric motorcycle over the past 10 years and have never even seen a battery warm up.  But there have been stories of problems with chargers (perhaps shorting out and) catching on fire. When that happens they can set the batteries on fire and then you do have a problem.   :o
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Dr Mayhem

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Reply #16 on: October 28, 2019, 04:10:08 pm
I believe production was shut down for the 06 Dynas also to fix a trans problem. IIRC some were jumping from neutral into gear on their own. I ordered mine in Nov 05 with a supposedly six week delivery time. Ended up being last part of Feb 06 before it arrived. I never wanted another new H-D, but that six speed trans was a game changer to me. Also ended up being last year for the little 88 inch motor and wide final drive belt. A keeper!!
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axman88

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Reply #17 on: October 21, 2020, 08:51:18 pm
HD is back at it, just in time for Halloween, recalling the Livewire again for an issue with the charging system.

https://electrek.co/2020/10/21/harley-davidson-livewire-electric-motorcycle-recalled/


GlennF

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Reply #18 on: October 26, 2020, 12:42:12 am
      I don't recall it being used in The WW. Brando and all the rest rode foreign bikes except for Lee Marvin who wouldn't make the movie otherwise. He was a harley rider off the lot. I didn't like the movie when I saw it in '53. I had been hanging around with and riding behind harley guys since 1948 (I was 10) and it did not ring true for me.



Ironically that movie probably helped create the outlaw biker trend of the 60's that is still with us :D

Brando rode his own personal Triumph. The foreign bikes were mainly Matchless, Triumph, Velocette and BSA .

However there were also a batch of Harley Hydra Glides ridden by the cops and Lee Marvin i think is on  a panhead , also at least one Knuckle head and a WL . Also an Indian Scout.

Some American bikes from the movie.















AzCal Retred

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Reply #19 on: October 26, 2020, 01:19:17 am
Richard230 - What's your take on the Livewire? The HD specs say a permanent magnet motor, a good thing, a weight of about 550 pounds, and a range of 100 - 150 miles with normal overnight domestic charging. Would it be a fun around town bike? If it doesn't frag itself, is it a good choice for a 10 year use period? You've got time on a selection of E-bikes, what do you think? - ACR -
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Bilgemaster

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Reply #20 on: October 26, 2020, 02:35:24 am
So badass my Enfield's actually illegal  in India. Yet it squeaks by here in Virginia.

 


cyrusb

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Reply #21 on: October 26, 2020, 03:31:29 am
Ironically that movie probably helped create the outlaw biker trend of the 60's that is still with us :D

Brando rode his own personal Triumph. The foreign bikes were mainly Matchless, Triumph, Velocette and BSA .

However there were also a batch of Harley Hydra Glides ridden by the cops and Lee Marvin i think is on  a panhead , also at least one Knuckle head and a WL . Also an Indian Scout.

Some American bikes from the movie.










The way I remember it was there were 2 groups Brandos Black Rebels rode the britbikes and Lee Marvin as Chino, his splinter group  rode HD and Indians.
But really it was the Hollister Riot and that one photograph in the Saturday Evening Post that put biking in the shitter for years to come. Google it. Actual witnesses say it wasn't that bad but that one photo drove the legend. It is easy to see where they got the movie idea.
« Last Edit: October 26, 2020, 03:49:26 am by cyrusb »
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Richard230

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Reply #22 on: October 26, 2020, 01:06:34 pm
Richard230 - What's your take on the Livewire? The HD specs say a permanent magnet motor, a good thing, a weight of about 550 pounds, and a range of 100 - 150 miles with normal overnight domestic charging. Would it be a fun around town bike? If it doesn't frag itself, is it a good choice for a 10 year use period? You've got time on a selection of E-bikes, what do you think? - ACR -

What I think is that the Livewire is a very well designed and developed motorcycle, has top components and could be one of the best electric motorcycles on the market right now. It really only has two major issues (other than the usual lack of range that is the bane of all electric motorcycles): It's price is $10k too high and it has no 240V L2 charging option.

Lesser issues is will H-D and their dealers support this bike in the long run? You may recall that neither H-D nor their dealers seemed to think too much of Buell and their innovative sport bikes and cut the brand when they felt the need to cut corporate costs. H-D always looks to the bottom line and if they feel that the Livewire is a money looser they might drop the model like Polaris did to their Victory-branded Brammo Empulse.

You might also find this story about touring Europe on a 2020 Zero SR/S model interesting: https://electricmotorcycles.news/the-pack-team-on-a-2000-km-road-trip-with-a-zero-sr-s/
« Last Edit: October 26, 2020, 01:41:59 pm by Richard230 »
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cyrusb

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Reply #23 on: October 26, 2020, 01:58:49 pm
Just to wrap up the bad image creation here's the pic that did it all. Hollywood took it from there. It looks like a converted tank shift Knuckle.
« Last Edit: October 26, 2020, 02:02:19 pm by cyrusb »
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AzCal Retred

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Reply #24 on: October 26, 2020, 02:54:50 pm
Richard230 - Thanks for that great article! Looks like the main issue was charging access - the bikes seemed to work very well. An unexpected observation was: "A nice side effect with warm weather is the absence of engine heat." As a former desert dweller, I can testify that waiting at a stoplight at 3:30 PM in August in Phoenix is even less fun with 200 degree air wafting up into your helmet. I'm wondering if a tow-behind trailer could carry enough extra battery to allow for 200 mile (320Km) legs. Charging opportunities are spotty in the West outside of cities. - ACR -
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axman88

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Reply #25 on: October 26, 2020, 03:19:44 pm
I'm wondering if a tow-behind trailer could carry enough extra battery to allow for 200 mile (320Km) legs. Charging opportunities are spotty in the West outside of cities. - ACR -
A towed auxiliary battery seems like a pretty awful way around the problem to me.  Couldn't one could get more power for the same weight by towing a substantial generator and gas tank!?   

It seems to me that if HD thought the market wanted a machine with more range, they could just pack on 3x the battery.  Starting with a concept that looks like an Electraglide instead of something that looks like a sport bike, and fill the bottom of the bags with lithium batteries, to increase the capacity as needed.  Also restrict the torque via software in the motor controller and the electrons will go further.  They already do this with their "modes", but also allowing us access to the full power means most folks will choose fun over economy up until the red warning light comes on.

Seems like they were targeting the awesome, pull your arms from their sockets, performance market, and certainly not the long range touring market with this first machine.


Arschloch

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Reply #26 on: October 26, 2020, 03:32:09 pm
No one made a hybrid bike yet? A range extender is so far the least evil. You don't need much more than maybe 10kW to maintain a cruise with around 60mph. It would need to be quite quiet and not sound like an attached compressor.

Maybe something of this sort.

https://www.motorauthority.com/news/1115724_chinese-firm-reaches-deal-with-techrules-to-use-turbine-extended-range-electric-powertrain
« Last Edit: October 26, 2020, 03:38:19 pm by derottone »


AzCal Retred

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Reply #27 on: October 26, 2020, 04:37:06 pm
Derottone - great link! >>> diesel-powered micro-turbine to drive a generator and rapidly charge a battery, which then powers an electric drive system. The TREV has a modular design so can fit a variety of applications. For example, the Ren RS can be equipped with two micro-turbines, a 28.4-kilowatt-hour lithium-ion battery, and six electric motors with a combined output of 1,287 horsepower and 1,725 pound-feet of torque. CRRC Times Electric sees the weight-saving and range-extending capabilities of Techrules' powertrain as ideal for public transport in major cities, where fuel efficiency and low emissions are vital. <<<
Here's some specifics on the TREV system:
https://www.environmentalengineering.org.uk/news/introducing-trev-from-china-3151/
TREV technology: Unlike many previously developed turbine powertrain systems, there is no direct electrical feed from the generator to the electric motors: the TREV system is purely a series hybrid range extender system. Air drawn into the micro turbine is passed through a heat exchanger where heat from the exhaust air is transferred to the cold intake air after it has been compressed. Ignition of the compressed and heated fuel-air mixture generates enormous energy which is channelled at very high speeds to turn the turbine vanes. As this hot exhaust gas is expelled, it passes through the heat exchanger to ensure the heat energy is recuperated and transferred to cold intake air. Techrules Chief Technology Officer, Matthew Jin, explains: “In a conventional car, the combustion engine that converts a fuel’s chemical energy into useful mechanical energy is also the driving an engine that turns the wheels. Because turbines have always been a very inefficient way to convert chemical energy into useful wheel turning mechanical energy, only a few have tried to use a turbine in the powertrain system, and none have ever succeeded commercially.” But, with electric vehicles, an electric motor is used to drive the wheels, which effectively frees the combustion engine to exclusively convert chemical energy into mechanical energy and finally into electric energy. This is a major breakthrough, making it possible to use the highly efficient turbine engine as a range extender. Micro turbines are significantly more efficient than piston engines in range extender applications, because significantly less energy is sacrificed in frictional losses, meaning more of the fuel’s chemical energy is harnessed. The turbine shaft powers a generator that produces electricity to charge the battery cells. In Techrules’ TREV configuration, the turbine and the generator share the same shaft and rotate at the same speed of over 96,000 revolutions per minute producing an output of 36kW. Of this, 30kW powers the generator, with 6kW directly powering auxiliary equipment, such as the inverters. The 30kW electrical output from the generator is used to charge the battery pack. The total weight of the TREV range extender system (micro-turbine, inverters, fuel pumps, air pumps and generator, but excluding batteries and motors) is approximately 100 kg. TREV system features several proprietary innovative technologies that make it approximately 50 per cent more efficient than range extender systems using petrol engines, which dramatically increases the viability of its commercial series production.

The Hybrid system as popularized by Toyota & now Hyundai looks like it has some real competition from China. The Livewire already utilizes regenerative braking/charging. Three gallons of Bio-diesel and one of these TREV units would make the Greenies swoon as you glided by, eh? Good find, Derottone!  :)  - ACR -
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AzCal Retred

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Reply #28 on: October 26, 2020, 05:10:49 pm
Axman88 - even the vaunted Lithium batteries are around 100 pounds per 1 gallon of gas energy storage capacity equivalent. The Livewire weighs 550 pounds now, and I'm guessing maybe 150 to 200 of that is battery already. A trailer is pretty low-hanging-fruit territory, just a connector and wire to parallel the batteries for more capacity for cross-country adventures. Nothing stopping you from adding a Honda EU2000 to your travel-trailer either. As Derottone points out, a hybrid design makes much more sense for the distances we normally like to travel. I really like the emissions-friendly TREV diesel turbine tech. Whether or not it can successfully transition from car platform to motorcycle needs to be determined, but definitely there is opportunity for a hybrid range extending powertrain. Hopefully HD will get right on it.

How about a future HD "hybrid powerplant" in one of these bad boys:  https://www.eliomotors.com/
150 MPG with air conditioning and a Shiatsu massager in the seat for long trips to Sturgis... ;D ;D ;D - ACR -
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Arschloch

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Reply #29 on: October 26, 2020, 05:16:25 pm
You only need the chinese mana to rain from heaven to realise this kind of concepts. To put it on the road and making it street leagal in larger volumes is a whole different question. If the power generation achieves similar efficiency as a power plant there would not be the need attaching it to the grid. A turbine is likely to burn all kind of "alternative" fuels as well. Potential might be there but I've not seen many designs succceed where I saw potential and I have seen an awful lot of hybrid designs over the last 20 years. It either falls in hands of some scammers who just want to sell the big idea, or some carrier needy managers that see it as a step in their carrier and throw human resource, make a mess out of it and leave to a higher post.
« Last Edit: October 26, 2020, 05:54:40 pm by derottone »