Unofficial Royal Enfield Community Forum
Royal Enfield Motorcycles => Bullet Iron Barrel => Topic started by: ace.cafe on May 11, 2014, 01:29:53 pm
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I'm pleased to announce that Ace will be providing our performance parts and services to a top Australian Bullet racing team, Guy Brown a.k.a. "speedybrowndog".
Guy is intent on winning the Australian vintage 500 championship, and he has enlisted our services to help him achieve that goal.
Bullet Whisperer will also be working with Guy and ourselves on the project, providing the specialty piston and valuable guidance. Essentially, the engine will be as close of a model to the previous one done with Bullet Whisperer as possible. This would be the 2nd iteration of our prototype racing engine platform collaboration of Ace/BW, and may portend eventual availability of complete racing engines in the crate, or maybe even race bikes complete. This is something that I would like to do, and BW and I have spoken about doing it, so I think it is a strong possibility for the future. We work well together.
Anyway, we want to help Guy to achieve his goal on the continent of OZ, and we'll do as much as we can toward helping him build the winning ride for that championship.
It will be the ACE GP Big Head package with the raised port, high-ratio roller rockers, modified chamber, ultralight BW custom piston for methanol. Just like what was done with Bullet Whisperer's bike. 8000+ rpm and as close to 60hp as we can get.
He just asked for our shipping address to send his Big Head in, so we should be receiving it before the end of the month.
Upon completion of this, we will have our racing heads on 3 continents, because we are also working with Scottie J and his 700 twin Bonneville LSR effort here in the US.
Maybe we need to bring it all together as an international racing team on the vintage circuits.
Sponsors, anybody?
Here is the bike.
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-9rxb_gRir6k/T9-uD0wMR_I/AAAAAAAAAb4/FhOnouwYEew/s320/royal_enfield_612_Speed_Dog_Racing_motorcycle_poster.jpg)
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Congrats, Ace. Nothing but good can come out of this. Racing improves the breed!
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Congrats, Ace. Nothing but good can come out of this. Racing improves the breed!
Thanks Cyrus!
We are already trickling this technology down into our street packages, albeit at the higher end of the price range.
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Nice Ace, now let's go kick some Manx ass!
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Bigger picture please! ;)
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Bigger picture please! ;)
I got that off his blog "Speed Dog Racing".
I don't have any pics that aren't published there.
It used to be a 612, and now he's coming down to 500.
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Nice Ace, now let's go kick some Manx ass!
That is the aim, Chuck!
We will certainly do that, and our sights are set on beating the very top echelon of big-bore short-stroke highest-priced Manxes and G50s. We think that is a real possibility, although it is a lofty goal. Gotta aim high!
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For those that haven't already seen our U.K. based R.E. classic racing machines, here are some pictures. The 350 has been excluded from scoring points and is forced to start from the back of the grid in BHR events, because its' Indian 5 speed gearbox gives it some sort of unfair advantage, apparently, over the 6 speed Manxes, Goldstars, 7R's etc that it can frequently put to shame. It has a good few outright wins under its' belt. In 5 races in Anglesea a couple of weeks ago, it took four 2nd places and one 3rd place, beaten by one Manx five times and another once, all the rest behind and several of these were more Manxes. This little bike was once allowed [pre ban] to run in a 500 race after our 500 broke a conrod - when the 350 crossed the line in 4th place, a big fuss followed and we were denied the points for the championship we had been leading up to then. This reinforces our desire to put something out there to totally 'stuff them' - we really want this!
The 500 has been a very capable machine, reliable, but less consistent than the 350, it too has had numerous respectable placings and three wins out of four races in Pembrey a few years back, the fourth race gave a second placing, because 'Henchy' looked the wrong way over his shoulder coming out of the last bend and got overtaken over the line ::)
If the 500 gains as little as an extra 5 bhp, it should be dynamite, the maths and paperwork seem to point to a larger increase in power. Fingers crossed, we might upset a few more people on 'thoroughbreds' soon 8)
B.W.
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It would be safe to say, if it hasn't already been said, that the "apple cart" has been upset?!! And some of those teams will soon have to swallow that hard pill!! It's always fun to see that sort of stuff, when they're at the top.... for what? ever? and here comes something from left field with a head of steam, just rolling on! ;D
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It would be safe to say, if it hasn't already been said, that the "apple cart" has been upset?!! And some of those teams will soon have to swallow that hard pill!! It's always fun to see that sort of stuff, when they're at the top.... for what? ever? and here comes something from left field with a head of steam, just rolling on! ;D
We will know more once the engine is up and running, and we can get some data. I'm sure that some sorting will be needed because the changes are so big.
However, on the positive outlook side, the changes are so big that the potential hp increase has a great chance to also be big.
Here's a basic estimate.
The previous engine had about 45hp at the rear wheel, at about 7200 rpm. That equates to 38 ft-lbs torque at 7200 rpm. If we only keep the same torque as before, but are able to hold it to 8200 rpm, then that would give about 52 hp at the rear wheel. That's not even increasing the torque, but just holding it at the previous level.However, we have increased the breathing by 30% and increased lift 45% over the entire lift profile. That would almost guarantee some significant torque increase to add to the extra 1000 rpm at peak.
You can draw your own conclusions about what that might be, but I think it's gonna be pretty dramatic.
The best Manx and G50 bikes in the world are running between 53-55 hp at the rear wheel. I'd say we have a real shot at it.
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Great news Tom! :D
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Received word today that the Big Head shipment is on the way to us.
Due to arrive the 28th.
;D
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Sweeeeeet!!! ;D
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Okay, there was a huge delay at US Customs, where they felt compelled to ask for massive amounts of information, taking days in between each info request, and finally opened up the box for physical inspection. I have no idea why this was singled-out for such treatment.
Anyway, it has finally cleared US Customs, and is on the way to us. It will probably get here tomorrow.
Yayyyyyyy!
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Finally, the delivery of the Big Head was finalized today, and it was signed for at Mondello's.
So, I will check up on it tomorrow.
Also, the "fixings" kit for the Big Head from Hitchcock has already arrived without any issues with customs.
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Finally, the delivery of the Big Head was finalized today, and it was signed for at Mondello's.
So, I will check up on it tomorrow.
Also, the "fixings" kit for the Big Head from Hitchcock has already arrived without any issues with customs.
Ah man, let's not get started on customs. I have an order in transit right now....... :-\
Awesome that you finally got the head tho! :D
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Discussion with the owner today.
Due to some issues on his end, he was not able to take advantage of the BW piston construction run, so the decision was made to use the regular Hemi chamber, and a high compression piston to suit a methanol fuel. Some squish can be employed on the hemi piston, and I think he is going to secure a piston maker to do it, and we will provide a mold casting of the combustion chamber for the piston maker to design the crown. In any event, we won't be having to modify the combustion chamber, and it will remain a Hemi.
Valves will the stainless steel of a similar size to what BW is using in his head.
Port will be similar to BW's port size, but will be a little different because this head has a small port in it, so that gives us a little more flexibility in shaping this port. This port may end up being a little bit more "ideal" in shape, because of this.
Cams will be Hitchcock race cams, with .420" lift, so the lift height at the valve will be about the same as the BW head. But the duration and timing will be shorter. Probably, the maximum rpm range will be somewhat lower than BW's bike.
We will have more updates as some of these things get more firmed up. However, we can now get started on the head, since the main things which we needed to know are now decided.
8)
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Racing Big Head Hi-Port Hi-Lift Roller Rocker head work completed!
Picked it up tonight, and will be shipping tomorrow. I will take some pics in the morning. Looks great!
Flow test included, and I will post numbers in the morning with the pics.
I can say from memory that the peak flow at .600" lift is about 265 cfm, which has the potential in full racing tune to give 67.84 hp at the crank. Most builds do not reach max potential, but it has a reasonable potential to match(or beat) any of the top Manx or G50 builds in the world out there. If he gets it all sorted and tuned to best power by race time, it could possibly win the 500cc single race.
Plans are to run this bike at the Phillip Island Classic Motorcycle Races in January. That's about the biggest classic race event in the Southern Hemisphere. Sort of like the Isle of Man for the Aussies.
Pretty cool!
8)
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Cant wait to see Guy flogging the bike at Philip Island, last week he pulled the engine outta the frame, a new frame I think as the old one is just too old.
Hopefully he can pass the guidence from you guys into my road going Enfield, I'm looking at near same Hp as his old bike but street friendly.
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That's Outstanding Ace ! ;D, Love to see a RE kickin some butt and screamin down the straights to the WIN. ;). Someone has got to take some vids of it in action, with sound.
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Nice work Ace! 65bhp out of a 500 single is pretty damn tuff! :D
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Nice work Ace! 65bhp out of a 500 single is pretty damn tuff! :D
Thanks, but that is potential hp based on flow capacity. It may or may not actually achieve that, based on other things about the build, as you know.
The bottom line is we need to be at or above 54hp at the rear wheel to beat the most powerful modern full-race Manx or G50 bikes that are out there. Those are $50,000 racing motorcycles. If this bike makes even 60hp at the crank, we should be about even with them at 53-54 rwhp. I would suggest it is possible with a very good build and enough rpms.
Without the hi-lift head, it would not be possible.
And this whole race engine can probably be built for under $7500(steel valves and your labor), and the whole bike for probably under $15k total for everything. IMO, that changes the whole perspective of the vintage racing world. A competitive bike for roughly 1/3 the cost!
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+1
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Pics attached below!
Flow sheet data for this head:
Intake:..............Exhaust
Lift......CFM.........CFM
.050" 27.7 25.3
.100" 58.1 54.2
.150" 87.1 83.1
.200" 112.2 110.7
.250" 137.9 133.0
.300" 168.3 156.1
.350" 200.1 172.9
.400" 218.7 186.2
.450" 234.8 196.0
.500" 249.0 196.2
.550" 258.2 196.7
.600" 264.1 199.8
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Port and chamber pics attached below:
Ported for a 1.5" carb, such as Amal GP 1-1/2".
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Nice work Ace! 65bhp out of a 500 single is pretty damn tuff! :D
And couple that with a bike and rider who gives 650 twins a run for their money on the track.
He will be unstoppable.
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That head is beautiful! Excellent work as always!
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No Phillip Island results - what happened ? I am assuming there was not sufficient time to complete the build, but look forward to hearing of it's first proper race when everything is sorted out.
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No Phillip Island results - what happened ? I am assuming there was not sufficient time to complete the build, but look forward to hearing of it's first proper race when everything is sorted out.
The build was completed in time, but it was a close shave, so not much time for sorting, etc.
Unfortunately, it suffered a seized piston in practice, and possibly some other damage which I am not aware of, and it couldn't be repaired at the track. From what I was told, no damage to the head.
So, no results from Phillip Island Classic.
We were all disappointed about that.
It was not an Ace piston, by the way.
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It was not an Ace piston, by the way.
It wasn't one of ours, either, just to be clear ;)
B.W.
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It wasn't one of ours, either, just to be clear ;)
B.W.
Yes. Good point.
Thanks for making that clear too. I don't know who made that piston in the Aussie bike, or what the specs were for it. We made a polymer mold of the finished chamber shape and supplied that to Guy, so he could work with his piston maker.
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It was a JP piston, couldnt take the power and cracked the skirt which ran through the hole crown then bit into the cylinder.
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It was a JP piston, couldnt take the power and cracked the skirt which ran through the hole crown then bit into the cylinder.
I wish he had discussed that with me. I am afraid that JP just doesn't make the grade for performance work. They are okay for a low revving plodder like a bone stock Bullet, and that's all. The low price doesn't turn out to be so low after it fails and takes out the engine.
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With my project bike in mind, are your Fireball pistons cast or forged?
A.
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I wish he had discussed that with me. I am afraid that JP just doesn't make the grade for performance work. They are okay for a low revving plodder like a bone stock Bullet, and that's all. The low price doesn't turn out to be so low after it fails and takes out the engine.
I fhink he is looking at Forged pistons from a shovelhead, for cost vs strength.
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That just seems silly. He already spent the money on the head job, why not just buy the piston FOR the head that is tried and tested to be a great piston? Especially after he already blew it up once with a sub-par piston? ???
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I fhink he is looking at Forged pistons from a shovelhead, for cost vs strength.
The dome isn't right on Harley pistons, and the valve reliefs are on the wrong angle because the valve angle is different than the Bullet. Plus the pin diameter is different which makes it more difficult to go back to a correct piston for a Bullet later. And a larger pin is heavier.
Believe me, those things have all been tried many times before with less than stellar results. I hate to see people repeating mistakes made by others in the past. These things don't turn out less expensive. In the end they are more costly because they need to be replaced with proper stuff in the end anyway.
He needs a real piston that is custom made for that application, that has the right dome and valve reliefs, and very lightweight construction for the rpm range intended. He has time to do it now that the Phillip Island race is past.
My 2 cents.
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That just seems silly. He already spent the money on the head job, why not just buy the piston FOR the head that is tried and tested to be a great piston? Especially after he already blew it up once with a sub-par piston? ???
Its all about the money too Scottie, this is with the old head aswell so only 40ish hp
Work is dry atm so everything is on hold for him at the momenf
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Flow bench data for the head is interesting in that the intake flow is considerably greater than a 92 bore Summerfield Manx Norton, and the engine being compared makes just better than 60 rwhp on gasoline.
The methanol will need a dash of Nitro to get up to that level!
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Flow bench data for the head is interesting in that the intake flow is considerably greater than a 92 bore Summerfield Manx Norton, and the engine being compared makes just better than 60 rwhp on gasoline.
The methanol will need a dash of Nitro to get up to that level!
Well, we anticipated that flow would be higher than the various Manx bikes out there, because we did some digging to try to find out some of that info, although it was very guarded info and hard to find. We also found the published cam grinds available for the Manx and G50, and they seemed to all have less lift at the valve than what we have on this head with the cams being used and our roller rocker ratio.
So, we have what appears to be greater flow, and higher lift than the best of the competition. What we don't have is the shorter stroke. In order to make the most out of the available flow, we need to have a lot of revs, like they have. And so this is the challenge with the long stroke. Things have been done in the BW racer to try to reach into the mid-8000's rpms, and it might be able to get up there with the necessary sorting out over time this year. If not, we may make some changes along the way to improve it. It's a new ball game with these heads, and we will probably need some time and work to get it all dialed in to the best of its capacity.
I don't think we'll need any nitro, but we will need the revs to get into the 8000's rpms. The flow in this head will allow 60hp at the rear wheel on gasoline, if the revs get where we want them.
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We should soon be seeing how a Big Head behaves at up to possibly as much as 10,000 rpm. The build of a very different RE racing engine gets under way next week ;)
B.W.
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We should soon be seeing how a Big Head behaves at up to possibly as much as 10,000 rpm. The build of a very different RE racing engine gets under way next week ;)
B.W.
That will be very interesting!
Watch those valve springs!
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We should soon be seeing how a Big Head behaves at up to possibly as much as 10,000 rpm. The build of a very different RE racing engine gets under way next week ;)
B.W.
10,000rpm :o!
Take that, Mr. Pomeroy!
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Seeing as how the stress levels go up by the square of the increase in speed, that's going to be quite a feat unless a very short stroke crankshaft is going to be used.
Long stroke engines with their large movement of the big end don't like high speeds.
Come to think about it, piston rings and pistons don't like moving at high velocities either.
Wishing him luck.
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Seeing as how the stress levels go up by the square of the increase in speed, that's going to be quite a feat unless a very short stroke crankshaft is going to be used.
Long stroke engines with their large movement of the big end don't like high speeds.
Come to think about it, piston rings and pistons don't like moving at high velocities either.
Wishing him luck.
I don't want to steal the thunder, so I won't spill the beans. Suffice it to say that the factors involved are known and understood. The engine will be made known when BW reveals it.
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I cannot believe that BW intends to rev his engine for the express purpose of seeing the rev counter needle reach the 10000 mark on a dyno. Such action would amount to sheer stupidity, so I am certain that is not what BW meant.
That the engine could momentarily survive such engine speeds is another matter entirely. There must be countless racers who have missed a gear and been alarmed to see the rev counter needle disappear, only to breathe a sigh of relief when the engine continued running.
The inertia forces as applied to a 90 mm stroke engine running at 10000 rpm are colossal. Assuming a piston weight of 525 grams (same as a Summerfield Manx item), the force trying to fly off the conrod during the overlap period is greater than 3 imperial tons, and under such stress a pressed up crankshaft will try to behave like a skipping rope.
I cannot comment on the valve gear as I know nothing about the arrangement employed, but will be surprised if any valve springs can keep the valves under control when lifts of up to 16 mm are employed. At 8500 rpm yes, but not at 10000, unless of course it's a missed gear situation, and then my earlier comment applies.
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Yee have little faith in the Bullet Whisperer. ::)
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I cannot believe that BW intends to rev his engine for the express purpose of seeing the rev counter needle reach the 10000 mark on a dyno. Such action would amount to sheer stupidity, so I am certain that is not what BW meant.
That the engine could momentarily survive such engine speeds is another matter entirely. There must be countless racers who have missed a gear and been alarmed to see the rev counter needle disappear, only to breathe a sigh of relief when the engine continued running.
The inertia forces as applied to a 90 mm stroke engine running at 10000 rpm are colossal. Assuming a piston weight of 525 grams (same as a Summerfield Manx item), the force trying to fly off the conrod during the overlap period is greater than 3 imperial tons, and under such stress a pressed up crankshaft will try to behave like a skipping rope.
I cannot comment on the valve gear as I know nothing about the arrangement employed, but will be surprised if any valve springs can keep the valves under control when lifts of up to 16 mm are employed. At 8500 rpm yes, but not at 10000, unless of course it's a missed gear situation, and then my earlier comment applies.
Yes, it would seem so, but you don't have all the information to the puzzle, and you will understand later when he describes it.
I will just say that it is a different bike, and a different class, and not the same one as has the head on it now. ;)
Just as a matter of response to your comments on the piston, I do take your point about piston mass at very high piston speeds, and we are quite aware of the issues. I didn't know what the weight of a Summerfield Manx piston was. However, I can assure you that all of our Ace forged 87mm pistons weigh in at much lower than 525 grams(they are 470g with pin and clips), and those are in our street bikes which redline at about 6500 rpm, so we do take the matter seriously, and design accordingly. The BW racing piston is a custom job that is somewhere around 100 grams lower than ours. It has been doing very well so far in the 500.
I could give more info, but it wouldn't be fair to spoil the fun for BW!
:)
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"Yee have little faith in the Bullet Whisperer".
My comments have nothing whatever to do with having any faith in the Bullet Whisperer, but has everything to do with highlighting the magnitude of the task that lies before him, something you clearly have absolutely no idea about.
BW knows his motorcycle cannot race in the Isle of Man using methanol as a fuel, so Ace's ambition of seeing it raced there will not materialise without this aspect being changed. And the Isle of Man TT course is without question the World's hardest circuit that tests both man and machine to the max, the Nortons and G50's that are the top runners there are in a different league entirely to those circulating at the BHR events back in the UK.
I wish BW and ACE success in their joint effort to get to the top. That it will be a difficult hill to climb is without question, and only time will tell whether they are sucessful.
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Thanks for your good wishes! :)
All long hard journeys begin with a single step.
The first aim is to prove out the new engine mods on the 500, and do as well in this year's British Vintage racing series of events as possible.
Then we shall see about the IOM.
Regarding the fuel, we understand that is an issue, and transitioning to a fuel suitable for IOM would be necessary.
These are all things which are along the path. BW and his brother have been at this for a good long while, and are seasoned veterans on the circuit. And he has some very good resources behind him, including us at Ace. I'm quite sure that we can work our way to to our destination.
And thank you also for your input and interest!
We always welcome knowledgeable and enthusiastic racers such as yourself in the discussions, and we hope you will even become a fan of our efforts.
Thanks again ;D
At the proper time, BW will release the answer to the mystery 10k rpm comment. It will be interesting and fun.
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I'm just amazed at how the rest of the bike holds together in one piece under such levels of power.
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I remember seeing Paul's older 350/500s which used to redline around the same rev range. So far all I have heard about him is - Winning races, hopefully this one will go well too!
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I remember seeing Paul's older 350/500s which used to redline around the same rev range. So far all I have heard about him is - Winning races, hopefully this one will go well too!
The 350 racer always revved higher than the 500, due to smaller lighter internal parts.
BW knows how to keep these engines together at rpms which I previously did not think possible. And he runs them right up there during the race, too.
Amazing, actually.
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This video clip has been posted before, but it seems appropriate to show it again here. It is a 90mm stroke 350 going to 8000 rpm on the dyno. The one I am building will be different and will be able to rev much higher. 10,000 rpm is not a target for peak power speed, but the engine should be able to get up around there after the power curve has gone 'over the top'. I hope it will be more powerful, faster and capable of higher engine speeds than the current one, which can exceed 8000 rpm. I want this to be the Royal Enfield from Hell, as far as the other competitors are concerned ;D .That is all I will say about it for now ;)
B.W.
http://vid956.photobucket.com/albums/ae50/rossemma/20140319_113308-1.mp4