[zisforzephyr]

Hi there,

I've spent the last couple of months scouring this forum for little tidbits that have thus far helped me along the way, so first and foremost thank you all. My 2009 AVL came from a family friend who had it in his barn for the past 4+ years. Retiring and moving out of the country he had little use for it but all the headaches it caused him seemed to still produce a twinkle in his eye...

Anyways
- cleaned and buffed most of the superficial rust off the chrome - body is in decent shape
- I've so far replaced most of the rubber components (airbox - Carb flanges & hoses, tires & tubes)
- Drained and cleaned the fuel system with some success - expecting future carb issues to troubleshoot but we're not there yet.


Issues I've come across that I believe members of this forum to be better at answering of which I haven't found complete answers to yet are as follows...

- I have yet to source the correct carb Flange part number 521788
https://accessories.hitchcocksmotorcycles.com/10179?qty=1&continue_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.hitchcocksmotorcycles.com%2Fpartsbook-pages%2F6119

-Hitchcocks above carry's only the non PAV version and the knockoff from ebay India I bough was the wrong diameter on the side of the carb.

-PAV unit which i've read isn't really necessary where I'm riding mostly close to sea level east coast USA - I've looked but haven't seen a good instructional on how to disable it / close it off permanently?

- I'm diagnosing a no start (electrical is everyones favorite)
 - Clutch cutoff switch works
 - neutral light does not - some difficulty removing the plastic boot - currently troubleshooting this and what 15mm wrench that will fit in to that tiny space 
 - starter solenoid completes 12v circuit (the previous owner I believe replaced this with a non oem model (part 146242) (see third attachment)
 - starter fires when connected to 12v source
 - starter switch when engaged lowers amperage on the ammeter - does not complete circuit / fire starter.
 - TCI unit is the green one (hitchcocks says "upgraded")
Ideas where the ghost might be would be greatly appreciated!
 
Lastly some advice on the rear suspension - the pistons look rather worn but before tossing them and ordering new ones I wanted to reach out and see what the general consensus was, I spoke with Tim @western and asked about these rubber boots (see forth attachment) which are internal to the mounting points and apparently they are not replaceable. other than some surface rust, this rubber cracking is the only real wear on on the suspension that I can see thus far.

Many thanks,

Zack
Maine USA
2009 Bullet 500 Electra AVL - "ZERA"

[AzCal Retred]

What do you mean by no start? Are you trying to use the e-start and it won't turn over? The e-start is way down the list of priorities.

Do you have a spark when you boot it thru with the kick lever, spark plug out? Installed a new plug yet?

Have you disassembled the carb & thoroughly cleaned the various jets, passageways, and checked the CV slide diaphragm for cracks?

Is the fuel tank clean & rust free, new fuel line installed, petcock flowing properly, a 10 micron fuel filter installed?

What is the compression test reading? 100 PSI? 120 PSI? Is the decompressor causing a problem?

Are the valves set properly? They need a bit of slack to assure that they are closing at starting speed. Too tight and they'll bleed off compression.

If you have spark & compression, a shot of starting fluid should make it pop or try to start even if the carb's hinky. All this can be done with hand tools and a good right boot for the kick starter. Sometimes you have to go thru the carb a couple times to get out the varnish & gunk.

What are you using for info? Have you downloaded the free manuals from Hitchcocks? Do you have the Snidal manual? What are you using for wiring diagrams?

The Electra is a great piece, the "Swan Song" of the Pre-unit era. Get it starting & running manually. The E-start is fragile, leave it alone for now. Do an oil & filter change, pre-saturate the new filter before installing. Pull the spark plug, tank & rocker covers, boot it thru 40 times or so to get oil to the scavenge pump & up to the rockers. See it up there and the rest of the oil system is working.

The shock bushings are a non-issue. If you have to you can make new ones out of an old truck tire. Get that Electra running, putt it around, get a feel for it. Your immediate goals are 1) spark 2) cleancarb/fuel system 3) compression at kickover speed. Everything else can wait.

[mtrue77]

I'm in awe of AZCal's advice, and it's not even my motorcycle.  Thank you.

[Nitrowing]

Yep, go through AzCal's list before you do anything. 100%
Print it off and stick it on the bike's seat!

[tooseevee]

What #2 & #3 said  Put money on it.

[zisforzephyr]

 yes to spark - tested and it looks good - little carbon buildup on the plug - gap looks proper.

What do you mean by no start? Are you trying to use the e-start and it won't turn over? The e-start is way down the list of priorities.

Do you have a spark when you boot it thru with the kick lever, spark plug out? Installed a new plug yet?

Carb cleaned - got all the gunk from sitting out - float is set at the manual's level of 17mm - replaced gasket in the float bowl - noticed the carb cleaner I used created a sort of discoloration on the brass - a slight "snowy" effect - however it didn't appear to clog any of the pathways. Diaphragm to my novice eye, appears intact, crack free and functioned as it should have. 

Have you disassembled the carb & thoroughly cleaned the various jets, passageways, and checked the CV slide diaphragm for cracks?

Cleaned the tank with vinegar & some abrasives, most of the rust came out-  - the tank was liner is partially flaked and still creating a flaky sediment - for now the petcock screen is doing its job  - is the 10micron filter you're referring to an inline one such as this https://accessories.hitchcocksmotorcycles.com/Amal-Carburettors/Petrol-Pipe-Fittings/11328 ?

 Having difficulty determining The fuel line is standard from the exploded diagrams - my caliper says ~7.5mm OD or ~.3" ( 19/64")

Assuming there is an industry standard diameter?

Is the fuel tank clean & rust free, new fuel line installed, petcock flowing properly, a 10 micron fuel filter installed?

I don't have the gauge / tools for this - will ask my local shop to test

What is the compression test reading? 100 PSI? 120 PSI? Is the decompressor causing a problem?

I'll delve into the manual - would this cause the engine to not fire or simply run poorly?

Are the valves set properly? They need a bit of slack to assure that they are closing at starting speed. Too tight and they'll bleed off compression.

Getting some starting fluid today to see if this helps

If you have spark & compression, a shot of starting fluid should make it pop or try to start even if the carb's hinky. All this can be done with hand tools and a good right boot for the kick starter. Sometimes you have to go thru the carb a couple times to get out the varnish & gunk.

Electra x service manual - spare parts catalogue + Hitchcock's manuals  / diagrams - Just ordered the Sindal manual (awaiting edelivery)

What are you using for info? Have you downloaded the free manuals from Hitchcocks? Do you have the Snidal manual? What are you using for wiring diagrams?

All sound advice thanks! here's where she stands as of this morning, hope to make some progress in the right direction before the weekend. https://youtu.be/RcdAYpXn2_A

The Electra is a great piece, the "Swan Song" of the Pre-unit era. Get it starting & running manually. The E-start is fragile, leave it alone for now. Do an oil & filter change, pre-saturate the new filter before installing. Pull the spark plug, tank & rocker covers, boot it thru 40 times or so to get oil to the scavenge pump & up to the rockers. See it up there and the rest of the oil system is working.

The shock bushings are a non-issue. If you have to you can make new ones out of an old truck tire. Get that Electra running, putt it around, get a feel for it. Your immediate goals are 1) spark 2) cleancarb/fuel system 3) compression at kickover speed. Everything else can wait.

[tooseevee]

here's where she stands as of this morning, hope to make some progress in the right direction before the weekend. https://youtu.be/RcdAYpXn2_A

            Watched your video. Remember (and I know you will) not to keep cranking on that start button after the cranking power slows down. That's when the sprag will exert its unholy revenge on you.

[mtrue77]

Just watched your video.  I'm the novice here, and I, too, am awaiting delivery of the Snidal manual (mailed on Jul 19).  So, pardon the uninformed observation.  With all that effort put into starting being unsuccessful, I'm guessing you aren't getting any fuel into the cylinder.

[zisforzephyr]

Updates - fuel petcock was clogged - cleaned for now, replacement on its way from WCC.

Took the carb apart again after the bowl overflowed. Checked the float needle and it was in spec (17mm). However found the needle Jet was clogged. Was able to clear the obstruction and put it all back together. However still no start and the bowl overflow is still an issue.

Engine cranking still feels like no fuel is making it to the chamber.
- no sputtering etc.

[AzCal Retred]

Glad to see you are hitting the basics. Starting fluid will help the most. If you have spark & compression it'll pop a bit. WD40 sort of works in a pinch, but it's oily. If it has enough compression to push your thumb (pressed hard) off of the plug hole, it should be enough to run, at least after a fashion. A new plug is recommended because odd things can happen to a used plug, like having OK spark in open air, then being reluctant to jump the gap under high pressure. You have too pull the jets & see that they are clean & unobstructed. Tiny copper wire harvested from a stranded wire can often be used to "bore out" a waxy deposit closing a jet> You need to be able to clearly see thru the pilot jets and it's emulsion holes. Same goes for the needle jet. No exceptions. "Rubber" fuel line often needs a tiny hose clamp to seal. The short-lived vinyl type can often be heated a bit & stretched over a fitting. This is "make-fit" territory, there's no standardization between carb port & fuel port. The hardware store (small engine section) & auto supply are a good source for in-line gas filters. If it doesn't say the micron level filtered to, leave it. Carbs don't work with dust, grit or water., no exceptions. The petcock filter is just a good first step. Valves are adjusted cold at ( or near) TDC Compression stroke. Pop the adjuster cover off at the cylinder base. The pushrod spinning free is a good start. For purposes of resurrection, even slightly loose is OK, as you want to be certain the valves are closing. After it is proven to run, THEN worry about closing up any slop. A few minutes running with loose valves is OK. Compression is lost past the rings, valves & compression release. A compression gauge is a cheap & valuable tool. If it's 110 - 120 PSI, all should be well. If it's low, squirt a bit of oil in there. An increase after that tells you that the rings need help. No increase, then maybe a hinky compression release or poor valve sealing. Get the gauge, it's way cheaper than even a 1/2 hour of shop time, and then YOU know what's happening.

PS - Carb float needle isn't seating because dirt is holding it open, so get a real filter in line. Possibly a bad needle & seat, but you should have seen that when you disassembled & cleaned the carb, right?

The engine won't run when flooded. Shut off the petcock and boot it 10-15 times, varying throttle position from throttle wide open to maybe 1/8th, until it pops. Pull the spark plug and see if it's wet with gas or dry. If it's flooded, it'll be wet/damp and smell like gas.

[zisforzephyr]

Updates- some more fiddling and it turns over….

[AzCal Retred]

Some terminology - we need to be on the same page.

The float, float needle & float needle seat control fuel level in the float bowl. The needle must seal in the seat. With the carb mounted normally, bowl off, you should be able to start & completely stop fuel flow by raising/lowering the float with a fingertip. The float presses on the spring-loaded end of the float needle, the seat fits perfectly on the float needle cone-shaped tip, blocking & admitting fuel.

The pilot jet is small, lives recessed in a tube, controls fuel for the low speed circuit. It and its passage have to have zero deposits. The pilot jet has to be able to be seen thru, as well as the emulsion holes on the tip. Clean is the order of the day.
The tube has to be spotless also, back-blow it to the carb throat with WD40 and "carb cleaner". You'll see the passage where it come out in the carb throat when you blast it.

The needle Jet and needle control low & midrange. The needle is easy to clean. The needle jet is usually retained by the main jet in the float bowl. This is all soft brass, so do any tapping very carefully. Unscrew the main jet until it comes off, then a washer, then the needle jet can be carefully pushed/tapped upwards towards the carb slide cavity. A round flat tipped rod is helpful to avoid damage.

In your last post you were saying "Engine cranking still feels like no fuel is making it to the chamber." This implies you are using the electric starter, yes? That's not a good idea with these machines. To check for fuel, pull the (new) plug and examine it closely. Too much fuel will make it noticeably wet. No fuel and you won't be able to see or smell fuel on it. No fuel means the pilot jet is still plugged and/or the choke circuit is plugged. Use your eyes & senses, no guesswork. Prove what you think you know. Troubleshooting needs to be methodical.

[Nitrowing]

My 2005 wouldn't run until I plopped the carb in an ultrasonic cleaner for a few hours.

[tooseevee]

Excellent advice from AzCal so no need to repeat it. I will say this: years ago I remember having the pilot jet out and swearing it was OK. Bike still not right. Pulled it again and this time went into bright sun with a magger frying grass. There was a microscopic piece of grit in the tube (not visible at any of the holes). As AzCal sez: a piece of copper wire the right size and it was fine again. Same can be true for the float valve. You got to look at the black tip with excellent eyes or a magger frying grass in a bright light   Gasoline will get through a microscopic leak past the Viton. Use the Q-Tip trick on the seat.

[zisforzephyr]

Thanks again AzCAL for your thorough response, and the rest of the audience for their loud sounds of approval  - needless to say yesterday was a day filled with optimistic exuberance so terminology wise I may have construed a couple of things.

Took it up my driveway and back last night, it started pouring and it felt like I was back riding in Pondicherry India again dodging giant snakes on the red earth backroads.

From what I gather, the clogged needle jet was the root cause of not starting - A clipped strand of wire brush made simple work of whatever had formed in there.

Finding a 10 micron fuel filter was a bit of a quagmire as it seems in these days of search engine optimization, manufacturers, and resellers often leave out this information. I believe this is the correct type even though it specifies for EFI applications - unless anyone has a better option.

Fuel line diameter of 5/16" OD which should fit 1/4" ID if I'm not mistaken?
https://www.holley.com/products/plumbing_an_fittings_and_hose/hose_ends/vapor_guard/parts/731155ERL

Carb wise theres a few lingering issues - i'm having intermittent overflows which from @AzCal's notes are likely issues with the

float needle & float needle seat

Here is it together on my bike working as I believe it should... https://youtu.be/IuHIcnz5JBA
Since I'm pulling apart the float bowl a fair amount, both of the seals I bought new have swelled larger than the original size making them difficult to replace and seal, is this the wrong rubber or normal behavior for o ring seals + gas. (see image) these gaskets are from Hitchcock's.


Can't seem to get the idle to be in a happy spot from initial cold -> warm, is the choke valve popping on its own back to its "off" state normal behavior or does that indicate that there is too much of a vacuum?

Additionally I think it may be time for a new throttle cable as the end of mine wants to twist out of its cradle.
I'm going to fiddle with this today and see if I can get it to a more happy place.

At one point I had it kickstarting yesterday, but its been a bit more finicky since - and I hear you all on the estart not being kind on this bike, so hopefully this tuning will make that simply for traffic lights.

After reading through the Snidal manual - his recommendation for these bikes is 20w50 oil however my RE service manual states 15W40. Recognizing that the proper type of oil that should be used is a topic that will end friendships, and potentially ignite WWIII. I'm in new England and its not particularly hot and in a few months will start getting down to temperatures I care not mention. For a clean flush I assume this is sage advice? and I will probably change it before 1000mi service to ensure nothing is shaving itself to bits. For now I used mobil synthetic 4 cycle 20w50. Will likely change it to 15w40 as the season gets a little cooler. Haven't added anything to the gearbox yet - thats next on my list of things to check.

Tooseevee can you elaborate on this anecdote

Use the Q-Tip trick on the seat.

does that pertain to putting the float valve under the microscope? I wish I had my grandfathers illuminated magnifying glass on a stand for this one!


Tire question - I put in IRC HD tubes, as everyone has always told me that anything less is just asking for trouble, has anyone had any issue with the extra weight / mass or am I overthinking it?

I had a look at my valves yesterday and my understanding is any wobble in its rotation is enough to warrant replacement. (see video) https://youtu.be/40EFgdT2GCc

Thanks as always

[mtrue77]

In today's mail

[zisforzephyr]

In today's mail

Good things! I opted for the HTML version which is good but hard to tell if I have flipped all the pages (without greasy fingerprints)

[tooseevee]

Since I'm pulling apart the float bowl a fair amount, both of the seals I bought new have swelled larger than the original size making them difficult to replace and seal, is this the wrong rubber or normal behavior for o ring seals + gas. (see image) these gaskets are from Hitchcock's.

Can't seem to get the idle to be in a happy spot from initial cold -> warm, is the choke valve popping on its own back to its "off" state normal behavior or does that indicate that there is too much of a vacuum?

Tooseevee can you elaborate on this anecdote  does that pertain to putting the float valve under the microscope? I wish I had my grandfathers illuminated magnifying glass on a stand for this one!

Thanks as always

           Whatever that gasket is made of it surely is allergic to gasoline. That's strange coming from Hitchcocks. I found out once (restoring a car) that you must NEVER put Fluid Film on real rubber gaskets. It was an expensive mistake. Your carb gasket looks like it's the victim of similar chemistry.

           The Q-Tip trick is to put a Q-Tip in your 'lecktrick drill, put a little toothpaste on the Q-Tip and use it like a Mini Mother's Buffing Ball to burnish up your float valve's seating surface. Rinse and repeat. Then assure that the Viton tip is as smyoooth as a baby's butt. The tiniest thing will allow gas (oline) to come out of your overflow tube over time.

            You'll work out your idle over time. Mine starts at a very low idle (it does not want ANY throttle) no matter how much tweaking I've done. It slowly increases in RPM over 20 or 30 seconds (only THEN do I dare touch the throttle) and then it just sits there and thumps & purrs.

[AzCal Retred]

Looks like progress! 

My 10 micron filters are acquired at the hardware store & auto supply as I find them. I agree that info is sadly lacking on the 'net for particle size.

That float bowl gasket/O-ring looks like it was dipped in brake fluid! I'd advise Hitchcock's that they may have issues with those, that O-ring can't possibly be supposed to respond that way to normal fuel. Looks like a defective batch. There are various "gasket maker" compounds out there, I'd try one if I couldn't get a factory float bowl O-ring that survives gasoline. "Thet jest hain't raht"...
Possibly you could cut it up to remove the surplus length, then use some Moto-Seal to bond the cut bits together in the float bowl groove as an interim "get-by" measure...?

Good float bowl video. Intermittent flooding is dirt/crud. The needle & seat either work or they don't. Olde Tyme folks used to rap on the float bowl to shake the chunks off the float needle seat - sometimes it works.

For fuel line I end up using whatever size just fits the largest fitting, then put a tiny hose clamp on the smaller fitting to seal the larger tube to it.

Oil - anything you buy is better that anything this motor was originally designed around. As you have gear pumps, that solves a lot of issues anyway. If you have the needle big end, it matters even less. Multigrades are great for air-cooled engines. 5W-50, 15W-50, 15W-40, all wonderful stuff. Change oil & filter about every 2K miles or more, these engines throw a lot of shavings/swarf. Cheap insurance.

IRC HD Tubes - the theoretical issues here are wheel balance & unsprung weight, none of which matters on a machine running steel rims, steel fenders, street tires and will spend 99% of its life at about 55-60 MPH. I had to laugh when I saw the PO had carefully balanced the wheels on my new-to-me 350ES. Thick tubes are harder to create "pinch flats" on when mounting new tires, a REAL plus. Possibly they resist certain tiny thorns (goatheads) and thumbtacks, but as a "Land 'o the Cactus" expat, nothing really works for real puncture-makers but "Green Slime" or similar fiber-bearing fluids. ( https://nazinvasiveplants.org/goathead )

Cables - it's a waste of shipping to order factory cables. Opt for the Hitchcock's HT versions. Especially important on front brake & clutch; better feel, way more durable.

Keep plugging away & keep up the pictures! - ACR -

[zisforzephyr]

Toodled around for about 100 miles over the last couple days just feeling her out,

New quirks
- rear brake light is sticky, running light is out,  front lever needs new cable / adjuster nut.
- Gearbox woe's, is it normal behavior to pop it into neutral on a downshift? A couple of times the gearbox has jumped to a much higher gear especially when coming out of 5th. Waiting on a new plunger for the "neutral" light so it's all guessing at this point.

The exhaust pipe touches where the oil filter is, how much is too much in terms of bending it back into place? guessing this is best done warm?

Anyway more fiddling to have - the tappets are pretty loud - "nails in a paint can" as the previous owner described.

55mph has me almost vibrating off the seat, may be my tall chest frame.

[mtrue77]

 "A couple of times the gearbox has jumped to a much higher gear especially when coming out of 5th."

I don't understand that.  Is it worded the way you mean?  I don't have any gears much higher than 5th. 

Would an extra gasket at the exhaust connection move the pipe away from the oil filter?

Re: my picture.  I'd call that a 1/8",  maybe 5/32"

On pg 10, Snidal describes the "ratchet mechanism in the gearbox stops the linkage at the next gear each time you change..."  followed by "gearbox may need adjustment" and "dealt with in detail in a later chapter" which I won't reach for a while.

[zisforzephyr]

ahem* lower gear - ie I've had it jump to neutral and potentially 1st or 2nd, it was a bit of a quagmire that I had to adjust for and didn't think to count the shifts in the moment.

[tooseevee]

The exhaust pipe touches where the oil filter is, how much is too much in terms of bending it back into place? guessing this is best done warm?

      I've tried every trick in the book (believe it) to get my header pipe to not just barely touch the oil filter cap the way yours does and still be able to tighten the two nuts at the head without the pipe being under tension. You want the head end to make a good seal under no stress and then shim up the rear connection so that it, too, doesn't put the head end under stress. Had no luck.

      So all I do is remove the oil filter cover nut, then I just tweak the header pipe outboard a hair, 0.010" or so, with a screwdriver and remove the cap. It's really no problem at all in the overall scale of things.
 
      You don't want to try to bend that header pipe with it bolted to the head (that's a double wall pipe BTW). And you can only add just so many washers to that rear header pipe anchor point to kick the pipe outboard. You run out of threads and can't get the nut on. Only when that rear point is secured should you put the muffler on and then adjust the muffler hanger as necessary so that the muffler isn't being pulled or pushed under stress. Then tighten the muffler to pipe clamp.

[heloego]

Exhaust pipe: Any time I need to install the header pipe I place a 1/8" / 3mm thick piece of lath between the header pipe and the oil filter cap before tightening everything down. That, and a few washers at the rear mounting point have worked well for me. Once everything has been snugged up removal of the lath allows for a 1mm decrease in the gap, but it's sufficient to clear the oil filter cap. If you are unable to maintain any gap, it's just not that big of a deal. The most it will do is slightly ear down a little of the aluminum on the edge of the cap.

Rocker noise: Manuals say to adjust the clearance cold. You should adjust at TDC so the rods have no up/down slop but are easily rotated in their seat. This should get rid of most of the noise. It's still gonna be noisy, but that's about the most you can do to reduce it.
Gear box: Sounds like it's not properly adjusted or the clutch cable is stretching on ya. Refer to the Snidal or OEM manual for adjustment. If the cable is original replace it ASAP, preferably with a good cable like a Barnett. You can get good one's from our host or Tim at Western Cycle Supply.
   As for the adjustment, the manuals mentioned only get you to a nominal adjustment. Take it for a scoot and see how it acts. You may need to tighten the gear box end by half flat or one flat to put a very slight pre-load on it. That's what worked for me. I have very few false neutrals, and shifting improved greatly overall.
   Vibration: With the bike on center stand and engine idling, SLIGHTLY loosen ALL engine mounting bolts (including both Head Steady bolts), give it a few minutes to settle in place and then re-tighten all of them to spec. Many of us have done this and received a notable reduction in vibration.

   Also keep in mind that what works well for one person doesn't necessarily work well for others due to the "nature" of the RE.