Author Topic: 700cc Timing cover brass plug question (Read 3481 times)

scooterbrain · **on:** May 27, 2021, 11:57:41 pm

Im working thru a wet sumping issue on my 1959 700cc Chief, and have all new Pump components,and pretty much have verified the path from the timing side block face to the sump is OK by using a hand pump and rubber tube to pull oil out of the crankcase.
Also verified that the Tank is Not leaking into the sump.
Then I verified that the scavenge pump does work by spinning the quill in the pump and used a rubber hose into a glass jar full of oil and it pulls the oil out of the jar. Then I verified path from the scavenge pump to the timing cover and its ok. I have now cleand up everything up and am ready for reassembly and I have a question.
What is the purpose of the Brass plug at the bottom of the inside of timing cover ?? Its just above the oil filter housung AND the plug is filled with soldier ?? Is that the way it should be ? I dont see it on any diagrams here or at hitchcock...
Thanks for your opinion.

P.S. added Avitar and readded as rotated and it came out the same !! Oh well..

grumbern · **Reply #1 on:** May 28, 2021, 09:13:57 am

Pics, pics, we need pics...!

grumbern · **Reply #2 on:** May 28, 2021, 09:16:35 am

Any of these?

scooterbrain · **Reply #3 on:** May 28, 2021, 03:48:25 pm

sorry it was late last night when I posted and was having trouble finding the attachment function. I found it this morning

In the pic I am pointing to the plug with a pencil. adding a couple bike pics too for the heck of it. The orientation on the pics looks wrong as posted but when I click on them to open the orientation looks correct. Hope its the same on your end.

scooterbrain · **Reply #4 on:** May 29, 2021, 07:33:09 pm

Update with 2 more pics here. Sorry I was slow to get the othere uploaded. I know that the r side case half is Chief verified by Grahm Scarth and the Left Crank case half is Trailblazer. I know this timing cover is likely wrong for the chief but hope its workable. The only issue Im having now is poor scavenging as in I drained 20 oz oil from the crankcase.

Ive relapped the pumps and bench tested and suction works fron both sources and Im about to go back togather with it see attachment...I can suction oil from the block face where noted into a jar, and I have suction and pressure on the timing cocer face where noted in the other pic. The only thing im concerned about is that my timing cover has the soldier filled Brass plug screwed in the timing cover in just above the oil filter housing and a chief cover ive seen does not have a hole there. There is a picture of that too.
It looks good ta go to me ?? I suppose whoever used this wrong cover used the filled plug to match where the correct Chief cover has no hole.

classicrider · **Reply #5 on:** May 30, 2021, 07:32:26 am

It maybe a oil pressure relief,with the hole soldered up.i have an earlier 700 and it has a brass plug relief valve with
a spring and ball,only in a different location.

grumbern · **Reply #6 on:** May 30, 2021, 08:20:10 am

Well, it could be a pressure relief for the filter housing. Mine has a relief valve in the line towards the rocker feed.
Maybe this is an earlier version. I think it was soldered because it might have leaked, but it probably should kept open to prevent pressure rise.
Andreas

scooterbrain · **Reply #7 on:** May 30, 2021, 08:32:12 pm

Yeah I have a feeling im gonna be heading deeper back in. I put it back togather yesterday with that brass plug as it was "and rode a quick 5 miles and it filled up the crankcase back up with 16 oz oil AND its just too noisy. it sounds like the rythym of valve train at idle "tica tica tica tica" but Im afraid it could be deeper. Everything is new.Pumps, Bores, pistons wrist pins, rod and mains, and even cams and lifters and valves, and guides tappets and Timing chain and gears. and the valve lash is very near zero.
Cost a furtune.
Im wondering about the new quill seal. it doesnt feel like much of a tight fit into the worm and it looks like there is room for two neoprene seals on that oil feed plug but I have just the one fron hitchcock. Hell even the
Thanks for the response guys ! I,ll let ya know if I find anything new. Maybe there is a missing check ball behind the plug.

grumbern · **Reply #8 on:** June 02, 2021, 03:03:42 pm

This one's the same:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/174782340793

scooterbrain · **Reply #9 on:** June 02, 2021, 06:22:15 pm

Ah...yeah I see that. looks the same but cant tell if its filled. probablu is and is just a plug for another relief valve. I look it over again
I left it as it was on my last attempt.
Im thinking that plug has nothing to do with my real issue. i.e sump fills up rapidly despite oil returning to the filler neck "maybe not enough" and loud top end ticking end noise despite zero lash and all new components.

I suppose if the new quill seals dont correct the issue Im in for a teardown. ive lapped the new pumps into the case a couple times with medium and fine compound. Ill do it again when I try the new quill seals. BTW !! 2 seals would fit on that oil plug...I wonder if that would be a bad Idea to try it ?? Its a new worm too. I just dont understand this noise. If it were rods it would have locked up by now I would think. shorting out the spark does not change the noise and the noise seems to keep pace with a timing light indicating valve train or a piston on power stroke. Thanks for the pic

ace.cafe · **Reply #10 on:** June 11, 2021, 05:27:06 pm

The quill feeds the crank. If the quill doesn't seal well, then it could partially starve the crank bearings, causing a knock.

Not too sure about the twins oil circuit, but in a Bullet the timing side crankshaft seal can be installed facing the wrong way, which could cause oil to enter the sump from the timing chest.

Try to isolate where the oil comes into the sump from.
It is possible that it can come in from the oil tank via a bad gasket sealing between the engine case halves. I have had this happen. I usually drain the oil tank and sump completely and fill the oil tank with ATF and let it sit unmoved overnight to see if any ATF seeps into the sump overnight. No running or turning of the engine is done during this test. You can see the red ATF color easily for identifying it. If you get ATF in the sump, it is most likely the case gasket. If you get more oil, it is probably coming from the timing chest.

You could also look to see if oil is coming in from the primary chest via the crankshft seal on that side.
Isolating the source is the first step.

AzCal Retred · **Reply #11 on:** June 12, 2021, 03:52:52 am

Here's a "Dumb Bell" seal conversion for the twins. I'd quiz H's about it, but I think it deals with loose or mismatched quill sealing. It may have application, but quiz the actual experts. H's is very good about responding to inquiries.

PART No. 42114B ; OIL FEED CONVERSION NYLON SEAL ; £5.50

scooterbrain · **Reply #12 on:** June 12, 2021, 05:37:09 am

Thanks for the feedback. Pretty sure I found the noise. I neglected to shim the cams and they move around a lot and seem to make a noise when I move theb back and forth, like what I was hearing when its running. Parts on the way for that and a new High capacity return pump that likely wont help the issue of 21 oz oil in the crankcase after running ten minutes on the stand "with a fan blowing" haha.
Ill look it over real good as I slowly tear it back down. Have a look at this pic. In thinking that I did indeed properly install the timing side Tappet guide pointing Away from the timing chest hole

.
I cant remember but I think the other three guides can go in any orientation ? Dont want to extract them again if I dont need to.
Also Im concerned that the cyl base Gasket on that side looks cooked comparred to the left side where you can see it is still Blue as it was when New.

scooterbrain · **Reply #13 on:** June 12, 2021, 02:44:17 pm

Oh and by the way, yeah the quill seal is brand new and I have not lost any oil from the primary case at all.
It could be my Tank leak test that Roasted that base gasket.
I drained the crankcase and filled the Oil Tank and then let it sit overnight and "After That" I places a space heater very near it on that right side pointing straight at the Right cylinder for probably 6 or 7 hrs and that gets it hot enough that in places you cant touch it so likely that wasnt a great idea.
I go back at it methodically today and hopefully come up with some reason for this low volume oil return. I could manually run the oil pump with a drill and the crank removed and see what happens. Already verified the passages with a squirt gin and a vacuum bleeder suction pump so its baffling "But ill find it" .Thanks for all of your suggestions and Ill read back over all of it and let ya know what I find

scooterbrain · **Reply #14 on:** June 12, 2021, 10:19:22 pm

Yeaaaahhhhh!!!
I found the second problem. See attached picture.
By pumping oil thru the worm gear into the crank. I can get oil to the rod which are still attached to crank BUT most of the oil is going Past the threads where the Worm Nut screws into the back of the crank web So I suppose I need to mahe a tool and remove it and use some sor of thread sealer.
That would certainly explain all of the oil in the crankcase.

scooterbrain · **Reply #15 on:** June 14, 2021, 12:26:05 am

Well actually I said that wrong . The oil was leaking between the worm nut and the crank despite being tightened all tha way up. I finally found the fixing screw in the crank opposite the rod throw. It holds in a pin that Locates the worm nut and finally got it removed so I can move on now with reassembly. Should have it back togather by next weekend.

scooterbrain · **Reply #16 on:** September 03, 2021, 08:08:19 pm

Here is the latest update.
The bike is back togather and runs like new.
No Knocking and No Ticking. No smoking.
The oil is returning to the filler neck But it must be from the timing chest return.
I rode it for a mile and a half, about 45 mph or so and when I drained the crankcase there was 12 oz oil in there.
Im sure there would be more if I rode another mile or so.
I have the new quill and seal and high capacity return pump from hitchcock and I do have the 2 breather discs installed. I was hoping it would be about 2 or 3 oz.

Its hard to understand it Not pulling the sump oil out since I verified that I can suck oil from the block face And I Bench verified that the return pump sucks quite well at both ports on the pump. One port to the timing chest and one to the sump.
the gasket is in good condition and installed without any sealant and looks correct. I suppose ill try opening up that brass plug .
Im baffled !!

grumbern · **Reply #17 on:** September 04, 2021, 08:32:32 am

Quote from: scooterbrain on September 03, 2021, 08:08:19 pm

I have the new quill and seal and high capacity return pump from hitchcock

For the 700cc? The discs of the twins are different from the singles and won't fit each other.

scooterbrain · **Reply #18 on:** September 05, 2021, 12:32:23 am

Yep Mr grum, this is the 700cc. I got the discs from Hitchcock and they look to be a perfect fit. Rode again today after draining the crankcsae and pretty much the same deal. Pulled timing cover again and verified punp function and pathways from block to sump and block to tank. Used another quill and new neoprene seal and I rode about 5 miles and at home I drained it again and this time I got 14 oz oil from it.
I have to imagine that if I were to ride 10 miles I would get considerably more oil !!
And I have already tested for oil coming into the crankcase from the tank and that Is Not happening.

scooterbrain · **Reply #19 on:** September 05, 2021, 02:05:04 pm

Im wondering now about the return pump disc and piston assy. I have used a New std one And used a new High Capacity one from Hitchcock and each time I have followed the directions in the manual and used the slightly longer/stiffer cover spring in the rear at the feed pump and the lighter one at the return pump. It says that when its correct and the covers are attached Tthe "feed" cover at rear will rest 1/4 in off of its mating surface before tightening down And the Return cover will rest 1/8 in off of its mating surface And It Does.

Im considering trying anorher set of springs that I have that are equal in length and pressure with the thought that Maybe the stronger spring Im using now on the feed pump is Un-Seating the Return pump and making it harder for it to pump !. But One of the Two return circuits is pumping because I have return oil at the filler neck. and I also removed the soldier from that brass plug in the timing cover just above the filter housing and the spring and check ball are intact. not sure how far to screw it in though si its about 2 threads below flush.

Adrian II · **Reply #20 on:** September 05, 2021, 02:40:05 pm

Is there a recess machined in the back of each pump disk, and if so is each one wide enough to let the pump sit properly in the timing cover, in case there is a "bump" in the oil pump housing where the disc sits? B.W. told me about this the other day, it came up on an engine he'd wordked on.

A.

scooterbrain · **Reply #21 on:** September 05, 2021, 03:39:50 pm

AdrianII Im attaching pictures of the Disks. The feed is New from Hitchcock, the return was identical and also New But the one pictured here is the Newest High Volume return pump from H. first view shows the disc sides with the large recess on the outside for the springs ti fit, Second pic shows the rear of those same discs. Return on Right and Feed on left. Note the Thicker cover with the recess supplied by hitchcock to accomodate the thicker returm disk.
I questioned the single hole in the rear of the New High Cap return pump and hitchcock says thats fine and it works on the bench. Im about ready to try the original Old return disk that I have never tried. Either that or use a pair of equal springs. Everything fits togather very well.
Also to answer your question, Yes there is a recess in the back of the disks and also a recess in each of the bores that the disks fit into in the timing cover

scooterbrain · **Reply #22 on:** September 07, 2021, 04:18:28 pm

In an old thread named "Return Oil Pump Replacement" I see 'Scottie" Finally got his oil leaking issue resolved and his last remark was that he took a short ride and was happy that he Now had 16 oz oil in the crankcase ! So what is the amount of oil "Typically found there"
Ive been worring about mine because even though I have all New engine components , Everything except the timing cover and Block" AND I have the High Capacity Return pump from Hitchcock" I start with an empty crankcase and ride 2 miles and have 16 oz oil there.
Mine is a 1959 700cc with the 2 breather discs in place at the breather and the breather copper tube goes directly to the oil tank. Im not having leaks But if I keep riding wont it just continue to fill up ?? I was expecting to find maybe 3 or 4 oz there?. I have return oil at the filler neck but I dont know if its rocker oil or crankcase oil or both.

in my last test i see that both return ports at the block Do dump straight to the Tank And I can suction oil out ofthe crankcase from the block face with the timing cover removed. Also, on the bench, I can motor a worm shaft in the pump and using a rubber hose into and a can of oil I can I can draw plenty oil out of the can from the suction port of the pump that goes to the crankcase.
So How Much Oil should I find in the Crankcase after a couple miles ride ??

Thanks again guys, I know this topic is getting old, but I dont want to run this thing or sell it if its not working properly.

scooterbrain · **Reply #23 on:** September 10, 2021, 04:19:10 am

think I found it !! With my bench test...The pump discharge from the Timing chest port is strong and the discharge from the Crankcase port is 80% less and ariated. Also thehousing and disk are shiny at the bottom of the circle and dull at the top. I hope that maybe I just need to lap the Hell out of it...."Again" Ill go back at it tomorrow and Test Drive on Saturday and let yall Know !!

Also I tripple Verified all pathways "and I mean ALL" for flow and sealing ans seems AOK.

classicrider · **Reply #24 on:** September 10, 2021, 09:53:21 pm

Check the crank pin for straight-ness also,i had one slightly bent off 90 deg once and that caused a rocking motion to the disc.All i could think of at the time was it maybe had over pressured some time back and strained the small rod.Was visible
(just) by eyeballing it.
My 700 clears the sump in 1 minute,you can see a virtual continuous flow of oil until it clears then air bubbles start coming through.Oil does drop on the dip stick pretty quickly ,say 2 days and it's off the stick.I have an oil pressure gauge and it goes to 50 psi on start up,(plenty of needle fluctuation there)