[Bagonne]

Attached is the most basic drawing of trail

This then explains why track bikes have the clip ons set very low on the forks, to decrease the rake for quicker turn response?

I imagine there is a failure point in either direction, in or out to be aware of? Perhaps we will not see that point with these bikes?

Thanks

[MikeAlpha]

What often gets critisized in professional motorbike print magazines here is the fork having a too high breakout moment. I don't know if that is the right English expression, in German it is called "Losbrechmoment".
If I understand that correctly, that is a matter of spring quality. So besides Preload and rebound control (via fork oil) the spring quality would be a another variable. Is that correct?

Just correcting myself, it apparently has nothing to do with spring quality, but with static friction (or stiction??).

[NVDucati]

This then explains why track bikes have the clip ins set very low on the forks, to decrease the rake grinding quicker then response?

Thanks

If you are referring to clip-on handle bars _ no.
That is a different matter, more to do with rider weight distribution and aerodynamics. Doesn't effect rake / trail / geometry. As an over-exaggeration, you could mount the handle bars on the front axle and steer with your feet, no change. But I like the question.

[Starpeve]

I’m guessing ( and only guessing) that the relatively steep sports rake is offset by 18” wheels. Can’t imagine this bike tank- slapping, which I’ve had several times with other bikes. It doesn’t ‘feel’ steep.

[NVDucati]

One of the things that gets talked about is the Pre-Load. Mainly the conversations center around bumps in the road vs a stiff ride.

Keep in mind that when you lean on the front brake going into a corner and compress the front end - you are also reducing the that trail thing.

Often enough the turn radius tightens up or you were going a click faster than your pucker gland likes so you brake a bit more and/or for longer.
Because you have made the front forks shorter, you have dynamically reduced the rake and trail.
You get that Oh Chit! going in your mind and might needlessly think that it is all going wrong and make a mistake _ needlessly.

My point is, knowing why things feel like they do is helpful. Very helpful.

So under the circumstances described what are the two most common mistakes riders make at this point?

[Bagonne]

So under the circumstances described what are the two most common mistakes riders make at this point?

I'm not sure what the obvious answer is but I almost always never use the front brake in a turn but a bit of rear, usually have downshifted before the turn. I mostly try to rely on engine braking and rear brake to get the right speed for the turn.   This could be very wrong.   

Also, when I am too fast into a turn I most always will change course for the easier line, let go of the throttle and touch the rear brake a bit more. 

From what I remember

[olhogrider]

I'm not sure what the obvious answer is but I almost always never use the front brake in a turn but a bit of rear, usually have downshifted before the turn. I mostly try to rely on engine braking and rear brake to get the right speed for the turn.   This could be very wrong.   

Also, when I am too fast into a turn I most always will change course for the easier line, let go of the throttle and touch the rear brake a bit more. 

From what I remember

I suggest you spend a little time searching YouTube for "trail braking". That's just motorcycle jargon for braking while turning. Nick Ienatsch has the best explanation but an oversimplification is as you brake you gain traction on the front tire due to weight shift. This gives you more cornering force. While you're on YouTube also check out Harley on Tail of the Dragon. It is a graphic demonstration of how effective the rear brake is while turning. OK, it's not THAT graphic, there's no blood.

[JettaKnight]

If I'm trail braking with the rear, don't I lose traction on the rear as weight shifts forward?
And I have much better fine motor control with hand than with my foot.

[twocoolgliders]

Braking in a turn is not the best idea...for the very reasons you state below.

If you do all your braking before the turn, the add a bit  of throttle...you set the bike back back a bit...the forks extend...etc.


Yeah "trail braking  blah blah...

Cookie

One of the things that gets talked about is the Pre-Load. Mainly the conversations center around bumps in the road vs a stiff ride.

Keep in mind that when you lean on the front brake going into a corner and compress the front end - you are also reducing the that trail thing.

Often enough the turn radius tightens up or you were going a click faster than your pucker gland likes so you brake a bit more and/or for longer.
Because you have made the front forks shorter, you have dynamically reduced the rake and trail.
You get that Oh Chit! going in your mind and might needlessly think that it is all going wrong and make a mistake _ needlessly.

My point is, knowing why things feel like they do is helpful. Very helpful.

So under the circumstances described what are the two most common mistakes riders make at this point?

[NVDucati]

Braking in a turn is not the best idea...for the very reasons you state below.

If you do all your braking before the turn, the add a bit  of throttle...you set the bike back back a bit...the forks extend...etc.


Yeah "trail braking  blah blah...

Cookie

- Well, I understand what you are saying and I'm familiar with the strategy of doing all your braking before. You are not wrong if that is what you want to do AND if you can control the environment that you ride in.
- However, you might agree that it is a bit polyanna to think that you will never need to brake when not going in a straight line. Everyone, in my opinion, should be comfortable and well versed in the art of cornering on a motorcycle.
- I'm pretty sure there are members here who want to feel comfortable at a sporting pace. It doesn't have to be at a youtube / race pace. But being in control, armed with knowledge and feeling that thrill is a part of motorcycling.
- Remembering that my example was about the mechanics of suspension and how not understanding it can lead to common and needless mistakes.
- Personally, I love being on a road I've never ridden, rolling along at a steady pace with only ever the slightest adjustment of throttle. Still, there are times when I choose to pick up the pace yet still leaving a margin of safety. I'm not a crazyman who seems to forget that he isn't on a closed course race track. But even on one of our humble 650s you can occasionally inch away from a fancy sport bike crowd with out a drop of adrenaline. Sometimes though one does need to haul it down in a corner.

[GravyDavy]

This is a really good thread.    Despite any disagreements, it's intended to be factual and objective.  Please keep it going.

[Toontje]

If you do all your braking before the turn, the add a bit  of throttle...you set the bike back back a bit...the forks extend...etc.


Yeah "trail braking  blah blah...

Yeah, there we go! The Break, Gas and Turn club vs. the Train Braking club. I'm in the last group. When i try to set myself up before the corner i mostly turn out coasting through the corner. Very uncomfortable feeling. I prefer to keep braking (5% front, 10% rear) until i see the end of the corner and then throttle up. Makes me feel more secure.

[MikeAlpha]

I don't really have a comparison to other bikes, but on the 650 the engine braking has a lot of effect. I remember a Suzuki 1000 Katana decades ago, it didn't have any engine braking effect at all.
Anyway, I try to keep braking in curves as a last resort, because I am very rarely way too fast. When realizing I am a bit too fast I just close the throttle completely. Usually that does the job.
However, still good at least to train emergency braking in curves, e.g. maybe because a tractor appears suddenly. Some bikes have a very nasty tendency of getting pulled upright a lot during such emergency braking, which might catch you by surprise. Fortunately the Interceptor doesn't maybe because of the geometry and/or small tires.

[twocoolgliders]

Emergency braking in a curve:

Straighten up , then brake.

Good reason to be in the inside lane!

Cookie

PS:

Number one cause of single vehicle motorcycle accidents?   Curves!

I don't really have a comparison to other bikes, but on the 650 the engine braking has a lot of effect. I remember a Suzuki 1000 Katana decades ago, it didn't have any engine braking effect at all.
Anyway, I try to keep braking in curves as a last resort, because I am very rarely way too fast. When realizing I am a bit too fast I just close the throttle completely. Usually that does the job.
However, still good at least to train emergency braking in curves, e.g. maybe because a tractor appears suddenly. Some bikes have a very nasty tendency of getting pulled upright a lot during such emergency braking, which might catch you by surprise. Fortunately the Interceptor doesn't maybe because of the geometry and/or small tires.

[MikeAlpha]

Straighten up , then brake.

Good reason to be in the inside lane!

Phew, it depends, that can be a dangerous game as well. E.g when driving on the right side as in Europe (except Uk), to be on the inside lane during a left curve would bring you close to the road center and thus close to opposing traffic. I would prefer braking first and being prepared what your bike does and maybe counter that accordingly.
On a right curve I would agree though.