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Royal Enfield General Discussion => Campfire Talk => Topic started by: axman88 on May 26, 2021, 06:21:59 pm

Title: E-Bike developments
Post by: axman88 on May 26, 2021, 06:21:59 pm
Everywhere I look on the internet, I am seeing interesting developments in lightweight, electrically assisted transport.

The more I investigate, the more options I see, in terms of power and configuration, and there are many companies and individuals going in different directions.  My impression is that here in the US, one of the most popular, if not THE most popular is the Fat Tire Ebike.  The Himiway Cruiser, the Sondors X, and the RadRover are all examples of this, and there are many more.   https://www.radpowerbikes.com/products/radrover-electric-fat-bike

With it's 4" + wide tires and traditional frame format, it seems to me that Americans have recreated the Schwinn heavyweight of their youth, but with electrical power to give them, once again, the lungs and legs they had in high school.

Meanwhile, elsewhere, but especially in Europe, development is considerably more diverse.   All sorts of trikes and quads are being designed and built, velomobiles that offer partially or fully enclosed cabins, even taxis and cargo vehicles.   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NxEedUL_7hQ

And yet, these diverse vehicles meet the legal definition of "bicycle" in many countries, and can take advantage of existing infrastructure.

This one is interesting, a pedal powered, electrically assisted, mini-semi truck that is generally produced with battery power sources, but here we see a developmental prototype equipped with a small fuel cell and hydrogen cylinder, which gives it a 190 mile range.   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wrcC-_hRtYo

Here, a similar design is used as a taxi:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7cOMroqj684
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: AzCal Retred on May 26, 2021, 06:30:57 pm
You been busy!  ;D  Nice link.

And this was a great turn of phrase.  " Americans have recreated the Schwinn heavyweight of their youth, but with electrical power to give them, once again, the lungs and legs they had in high school. "  Ya could'a been a "Mad Men" contendah'...!  ;D

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mad_Men

Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: zimmemr on May 26, 2021, 09:42:34 pm
You been busy!  ;D  Nice link.

And this was a great turn of phrase.  " Americans have recreated the Schwinn heavyweight of their youth, but with electrical power to give them, once again, the lungs and legs they had in high school. "  Ya could'a been a "Mad Men" contendah'...!  ;D

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mad_Men
Wait a minute there, I still ride a Schwinn! But I'm thinking it'd take about a 16KV generator to make my lungs look like they did in high school and even that's a stretch. "Hey hon I'm gonna ride my pedal bike down to the corner for some cigars" ;D
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: Karl Fenn on May 27, 2021, 11:46:24 am
Well E bikes are a good idea but because of these insane British laws they must be peddled despite the fact they only do 15 mph, ironically you can ride a normal bike at 25 mph, but can't ride an electric that does 15 without peddling, how mental is that whatever lunatics write these laws.
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: Nitrowing on May 27, 2021, 12:32:25 pm
Well E bikes are a good idea but because of these insane British laws they must be peddled despite the fact they only do 15 mph, ironically you can ride a normal bike at 25 mph, but can't ride an electric that does 15 without peddling, how mental is that whatever lunatics write these laws.
This isn't a new issue either.
The Sinclair C5 was restricted to 15mph because of this law. Derestricted, they do nearly 40mph.
That's 40 years ago... nothing's changed.
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: Richard230 on May 27, 2021, 02:05:35 pm
Well E bikes are a good idea but because of these insane British laws they must be peddled despite the fact they only do 15 mph, ironically you can ride a normal bike at 25 mph, but can't ride an electric that does 15 without peddling, how mental is that whatever lunatics write these laws.

Shouldn't you also have a person running in front of your e-bike waving a red flag, too?   ::)
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: derottone on May 27, 2021, 02:54:53 pm
Shouldn't you also have a person running in front of your e-bike waving a red flag, too?   ::)

It's not a big deal to make an ebike with 4kW motor that does 60mph or close and looks like a bicycle, would you like to see that on the roads too? ;D
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: Richard230 on May 27, 2021, 04:16:53 pm
It's not a big deal to make an ebike with 4kW motor that does 60mph or close and looks like a bicycle, would you like to see that on the roads too? ;D

My son-in-law built an e-bike on a mountain bicycle frame with a hub motor putting out 3KW about 10 years ago, powered by 40 pounds of NiCa batteries. But it was pretty heavy and one day when it ran out of juice he tried pedaling it 5 miles home and was completely wasted after he finally pushed it up the last hill. Plus, the bike would hit 40 mph and stopping it with the push bike's rim clamping brakes didn't work any better than the brakes on an iron barrel bullet.  :o  After that he gave up riding e-bikes.
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: derottone on May 27, 2021, 05:00:07 pm
It might take a bit more refined development to do the 60mph, I doubt any company will do it. Most likely you would need a motorcycle helmet and a licence to take it on the road in Germany anyway. May as well take a propper motorbike. He who owns the roads makes the rules what can drive or ride on them. That would be here the state, once the EU burocrats are dealth with.
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: AzCal Retred on May 27, 2021, 07:44:33 pm
Many e-bikes make use of regenerative braking, where the motor becomes a generator and provides auxiliary braking force through either recharging the battery or dissipating kinetic energy as heat in a radiator grid. Braking in general is a well traveled road, nothing to learn there, just apply what's already known. Top speed is a function of drag & available power, which is simply a design issue for the responsible engineer. So far "e-bikes" have exceeded 200 MPH. It's absurd to be stating what can or can't be done with e-bikes, as that depends on the parameters selected for a particular build. With a Bill Gates budget I'm certain quite a wonderous machine could be produced. If you spec a $1,500 maximum retail price tag, quite another machine would emerge from the workshop. Axman88 has provided an interesting glimpse into what's currently being done and available for "reasonable" money and is to be commended, not criticized for what you personally "think" is or isn't possible.

https://www.choosewheels.com/fast-electric-motorcycles/
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: derottone on May 27, 2021, 07:50:03 pm
I guarantee you if you take all Bill Gatses money and stuff it in an electric motorbike development, be it a one of unique prototype, it won't beet a gasoline powered bike on the IOM.  ;) ;D ;D ;D

...unless they make a silly show like RE did with the 650 on the bonnevill Salt flats, in Hollywood everything is possible.
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: AzCal Retred on May 27, 2021, 08:08:25 pm
Such a "guarantee" is entirely dependent on current, available technology. 5 years from now a fuel cell (still an e-bike) equipped machine could in fact be the dominant IOM force. Even with todays tech, a "Mega-budget" could produce a formidable effort. Think back on Honda's NR500, in 1977 going head to head GP racing with the highly developed 2 strokes, giving up both power & weight advantages in a field full of highly competent riders and machines. Lots of learning & a few good finishes, but there if the leaders screwed up. Maybe with more current materials such as beryllium, titanium, carbon fiber nanotube, etc. they may have dominated, but it took a large box of money to do what they did. Electric motors have a exploitable advantages over infernal combustion engines, and if better materials gives them a superior power to weight margin, it could happen.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honda_NR500
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: derottone on May 27, 2021, 08:17:28 pm
I believe it when I see it, let the money burning beginn. I'm not going to eat bug burgers though just to make it possible for couple money sobs to keep persuing that goal forever.  ;)
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: axman88 on May 27, 2021, 10:39:37 pm
It might take a bit more refined development to do the 60mph, I doubt any company will do it. Most likely you would need a motorcycle helmet and a licence to take it on the road in Germany anyway.
I'd be happy to take that bet, and the first guy I'd be looking at to do it, would be David Twomey, the creative force behind Juicer bikes.  ( Not Juiced bikes )    http://www.juicer.bike/

David's machines are basically handmade, are gorgeous retro creations, and he's currently using 3KW motors in his highest performance models.  I wouldn't doubt that he's already surpassed 60 mph, but since this isn't capability that can be legally claimed for a production E-bicycle, you can't blame him for not blowing that particular horn too loudly.

Here's more info on the development of Juicer bikes.  I personally think that they are the best looking, best engineered "custom styled" , recreational street machines around.  https://www.electricbike.com/juicer-e-bikes-king-of-the-boardtrackers/

But E-bikes aren't about going fast, they are about low cost, low impact, local urban transport.

Consider my situation.  My car can go at least 90 mph, but when I drive my car to commute to work in Chicago, an urban environment, it takes me 30 minutes to cover the 5.6 miles.  That's 11.2 mph, average, but when I'm rolling, I'm traveling about 30 mph average.  The majority of my commute time is spent stationary at traffic lights, behind a string of other lemmings, in their 90 to 120 mph capable cars.  When I ride my old 3 speed bicycle instead of driving, (human powered, not electric), I can cover the same 5.6 miles in 35 minutes.   I'm only traveling at about 12 mph, and with a little good luck and timing, I will only need to stop for one or two traffic lights.  More than half of the world's population now lives in urban environments, like me.  This is what E-bikes are designed for.

My speed is externally constrained, by external factors, like traffic.  Having the ability to go 90, or 60, or even 35 mph adds nothing of value.  Low operating cost is good for me, and low emissions is good for everyone.  Being able to park anywhere, or push my machine inside the building for security, is a big plus too.

Ebikes are legally constrained to 15 mph in most European countries, according to what I've read, and to 20, (or 28 mph, depending on class) in the USA.   Most of those being sold in the USA today can be easily modified, by a software update, to go faster, but this isn't really the point.  Going outside those limits is forbidden for manufacturers.  It's commonly done by individuals, and, so far, I haven't heard of anybody being prosecuted in the US for modifying their machine to go faster, but thanks to the exponential nature of aero drag, doing so heavily reduces cruising range.  Personally, I'm quite content with a real 20 mph top speed on my bicycle, provided it comes with the right to coast through red lights, (here in Chicago, it "sorta" does), plus no required insurance, no required drivers license, no required registration, no required inspection, no required nothing and no paying for gasoline.  I can legally ride on bike paths.  I can even occasionally ride on the sidewalk, which I've been taking advantage of with the bicycle, since a major road on my commute has been shut down for the last two years for bridge work, but the pedestrian walkway has remained open.

Hub motors now generally include a 6 bolt standard mount pattern for disc brakes, and disc brakes front and rear are standard on the current crop of E-bikes, cable actuated for base models, and hydraulic actuated on high end machines.  Drum hubs are also readily available.

Perhaps for reasons of price point, I haven't seen a lot of makers of E-bikes offering regenerative braking systems.    Regen. isn't really efficient enough from what I've read, to make it worth implementing in these low speed, low mass vehicles.  When I'm riding my human powered 3 speed bike, in the flat world that is Chicago, I can go all day without needing the brakes.  The idea is conserve the energy in the first place, not to spend $1 to try to get 15 cents back in change.
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: derottone on May 28, 2021, 11:14:43 am
I'm not to much into retro styling of an e-bike that is supposed to look like a petrol engine powered bike, but I'm not the market neither a potential customer. E-bikes may need to discover their own styling.

If I wanted anything like that and burn cash on it, it would be a custom one off. If I sold more than 3 a commie would come along (or some Swedish dwarf on a fat Harley with  inferiority complex) asking for a donation for sure, so why bother.
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: Richard230 on May 28, 2021, 02:32:38 pm
I'm not to much into retro styling of an e-bike that is supposed to look like a petrol engine powered bike, but I'm not the market neither a potential customer. E-bikes may need to discover their own styling.

If I wanted anything like that and burn cash on it, it would be a custom one off. If I sold more than 3 a commie would come along (or some Swedish dwarf on a fat Harley with  inferiority complex) asking for a donation for sure, so why bother.

One of the early highway-capable e-bikes (top speed of about 65mph) was the Brammo Enertia.  It had distinctive styling. The vehicle was originally being distributed and sold by Best Buy stores starting in the fall of 2010, until the state of California DMV found out about it and informed the store that they didn't have a license to sell motor vehicles out of an electronics store.  ::)  Photos attached.
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: Richard230 on May 28, 2021, 02:36:53 pm
And now we have the "Founders Edition"  ::) of the Streetdog. And they are already sold out of them: https://electricmotorcycles.news/first-100-founders-edition-streetdogs-from-start-up-ftn-motion-are-sold-out-in-new-zealand/
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: derottone on May 28, 2021, 03:13:59 pm
One of the early highway-capable e-bikes (top speed of about 65mph) was the Brammo Enertia.  It had distinctive styling. The vehicle was originally being distributed and sold by Best Buy stores starting in the fall of 2010, until the state of California DMV found out about it and informed the store that they didn't have a license to sell motor vehicles out of an electronics store.  ::)  Photos attached.

 ;D ;D ;D ...the "green" state outlawed a supposedly "green" vehicle.

...and replaced it with a ridiculous design of some privileged children.
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: AzCal Retred on May 28, 2021, 08:59:08 pm
And now, the rest of the story...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brammo

Brammo, Inc. was an American producer of electric traction motors and traction batteries[1] based in Talent, Oregon, United States. Brammo also developed and sold a range of electric motorcycles via the company's website and motorcycle dealers throughout the United States, Europe, and Asia.[2]

On January 15, 2015, Polaris Industries announced that it had purchased the entire electric motorcycle business from Brammo. Production of an electric motorcycle, the rebadged Victory Empulse, commenced at Polaris' factory in Spirit Lake, IA during the second half of 2015.[3]

In 2017 Polaris announced that they were reluctantly closing down their Victory Motorcycles brand.[33]

https://www.mailtribune.com/news/20171016/brammo-assets-sold-to-cummins/

https://www.businesswire.com/news/home/20171016005785/en/Cummins-Announces-Acquisition-Energy-Storage-Technology

http://www.brammoforum.com/wiki/index.php?title=Main_Page


Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: Richard230 on May 28, 2021, 10:37:01 pm
I am still irritated about Brammo. Sometime around 2012 they announced their new 100 mph, 10kWh battery, Brammo Empulse, would be available for something like $11K and they were accepting pre-orders for the bike. I visited Scuderia West (now a KTM and RE dealer) in San Francisco and saw the pre-production model (photos attached). I also met and spoke with their chief engineer that was there at the time. I really liked the bike and put in an order for one. Then the company decided to redesign the power train to include a six-speed transmission (which it didn't really need), to replace the original direct drive. They also raised the price a couple of thousand dollars and it was higher than that when the new version was released two years later.  So I canceled my order and bought a 2012 Zero ZF9, which I thought was a great motorcycle for the time. It was good for 85 mph and I once was able to travel 100 miles on single charge on a Marin County back road on that model.

I did buttonhole the owner of the company, Craig, at the Sears Point race track and asked him why he didn't come out with the direct drive model first and then follow it up with the 6-speed version later. He told me that he was in the business for "fun" and he felt that motorcycle riders liked to shift gears as part of the experience of riding. I told him that wasn't a big attraction for me, but I don't think he really cared about my opinion and only built the version with an Italian transmission - which is still giving Empulse owners maintenance and reliability grief.
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: AzCal Retred on May 29, 2021, 01:13:29 am
So why did everything blow up for Polaris? Sounds like the basics were all there. Market change on them? Brand conflict? Bad marketing?
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: derottone on May 29, 2021, 07:08:03 am
So why did everything blow up for Polaris? Sounds like the basics were all there. Market change on them? Brand conflict? Bad marketing?

If you work at Brammo, your products are outlawed from selling, you get bought up by polaris who have the powder to bend laws and lubricate the politicos and they tell you now what to do after you've invested your life into that brammo brand development what will you do? Walk out. Speculation on my part, Brammo didn't find financial support after 2009 due to the market downturn so they sold out.

I'm still irritated about almost everything that happened after 2010.
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: Richard230 on May 29, 2021, 02:43:01 pm
So why did everything blow up for Polaris? Sounds like the basics were all there. Market change on them? Brand conflict? Bad marketing?

It was due to a chicken-liver board that was loosing a lot of money at the time due to recall issues with their three-wheel car. The Brammo Empulse had been sucked up by their Victory brand and when that folded due to lagging sales, mostly due to the success of their Indian brand, the electric motorcycle went down the tubes with the rest of Victory. Plus, I have a suspicion that most Victory dealers didn't really want to sell and especially work on electric motorcycles as that required a lot of expensive and time-consuming staff retraining and were happy to get rid of them and start selling nothing but top-dollar Indian motorcycles.

BTW, Brammo's chief engineering development guy, transferred to Victory where he helped make some further changes to the Victory Empulse TT. When Polaris pulled the Victory plug, he moved over to Zero where he is now their Chief Engineering Director.
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: Richard230 on May 29, 2021, 02:48:23 pm
If you work at Brammo, your products are outlawed from selling, you get bought up by polaris who have the powder to bend laws and lubricate the politicos and they tell you now what to do after you've invested your life into that brammo brand development what will you do? Walk out. Speculation on my part, Brammo didn't find financial support after 2009 due to the market downturn so they sold out.

I'm still irritated about almost everything that happened after 2010.

A portion of the Brammo assets, mostly the production rights to the Empulse, were sold to Victory who apparently saw H-D's LiveWire and thought they needed to be on the EV bandwagon, too. The owner of the Brammo company had just lost interest in manufacturing and selling motorcycles (he was really a car guy) and the startup-fun for him had just faded. He retained some of the useful EV tech that his company owned and started up another business as an EV consultant.  I have no idea what Craig is doing now.
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: AzCal Retred on May 29, 2021, 07:57:17 pm
Thanks for the write up! Looks like Zero is the front runner then, if they have the engineering brainiac behind Brammo.
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: Richard230 on May 29, 2021, 10:36:35 pm
Thanks for the write up! Looks like Zero is the front runner then, if they have the engineering brainiac behind Brammo.

I like Zeros, but real EV enthusiasts prefer the Italian Energica models. They have more power and a higher top speed, a faster L3 charging system (Zero is stuck with L2 because of its 115V battery pack, while Energica's power train is around 320V), it has a better suspension and cooling system, higher chassis components, more electronic features and being Italian look a lot better. Their latest models also have a larger battery pack. However their bikes are about 150 pounds heaver than most Zero models, require much more maintenance, have a much smaller dealer network in the U.S. and cost more. Right now all Energicas in the U.S. are sold out and dealers have a waiting list and are waiting for more bikes to arrive, which have been delayed by manufacturing and shipping issues due to Covid.

My BMW dealer sells the Energica line. Attached are photos that I took a couple of years ago.
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: axman88 on May 29, 2021, 11:21:28 pm
No offense, but it might be difficult to get further from my intended focus of discussion, than these high powered, high speed, very stylish and sporty E-motorcycles.  I realize now I should have used the word "Velo" or "bicycle" in the title, since "bikes" has been appropriated so completely by the motorcycle culture.  My intention was to discuss moderately powered vehicles that are being developed to meet practical transportation needs.

It's a sad fact that, barring some profound reduction in air pressure values, those of us who live on the face of the Earth must accept that the net energy we spend on moving from place to place will always be exponentially related to the velocity of that travel.  Nothing makes this clearer than riding our human powered bicycles, where every change of grade and puff of wind is immediately felt.

I do find it ironic that it often seems, that those most free of any time constraints, most absent of any need to be anywhere at any particular time, the retired community, seem most certain that they require the ability to travel at 60 or 90 mph, then take half the day so doing, only to return at the end of this time, to the same place they started, while it's young creative people, like Johan Erlandsson, who are developing such radical concepts as the Velove Armadillo.
https://newatlas.com/velove-armadillo-cargo-cycle/36995/

Perhaps if these folks knew that these new vehicle forms didn't have to be entirely practical, that they could also be a camper, they might actually look at the links, and discuss those new ideas.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xvfEm3h0CAQ

Or perhaps not, if they are disinterested.  Plenty of my past threads have been sparsely responded to or ignored, I'm fine with that.  There's lots of room for varied topics here on the forum, especially here in the Campfire section where new threads, on diverse topics, show up all the time.  Strange that, with as much interest as folks have in them, that a thread doesn't seem to exist about Brammo.  A search for Zero yields far too many results for me to dedicate the time to search through, one of the drawbacks of branding using a word with pre-existing meaning in the time of the internet.
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: Richard230 on May 30, 2021, 01:35:44 am
If you are looking to see a wide variety of both e-bicycles, scooters, urban electric motorcycles and just about everything else that is battery-powered and is available on the market, or in pre-production, you can visit this site. Although you may have to go back a ways to see everything that has been posted as they drop news about new EVs on the site every few days and have been doing so for a couple of years:  https://electricmotorcycles.news/news/
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: AzCal Retred on May 30, 2021, 02:09:13 pm
We read's 'em!  ;D
Some flexible PV arrays on top of that "Covered Wagon" and you're set to camp for weeks in splendor.
A bit like these intrepid travelers: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mormon_handcart_pioneers

Pling Transport – Cargo bikes

https://smartcitysweden.com/companies/1951/pling-transport-cargo-bikes/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kcaq7vTYymQ&t=4s
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: derottone on May 30, 2021, 02:16:36 pm
@#28: That's just too useful and good.  ::)

 ...maybe something to transport that insect burgers and cookies.
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: AzCal Retred on May 30, 2021, 08:30:25 pm
I was always told - "If you're hungry, you'll eat it!"  ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: Nitrowing on May 31, 2021, 01:26:22 am
At least he gave it a try...

https://hackaday.com/2021/05/30/bicycle-flywheel-stores-a-bit-of-energy-not-much/
"results perhaps serve as a solid indication of why it’s not something we use particularly often on bicycles"
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: AzCal Retred on May 31, 2021, 06:00:26 am
The reason it isn't very helpful is inappropriate technology. We don't use steam trains anymore. PV arrays surpass Solar-Thermal plants in output and operating efficiency. Beacon Energy has been building spun carbon fiber flywheel energy storage modules for many years. They run at over 22,000 RPM, spin in vacuum on maglev bearings. Power is added or removed from the core electronically via a brushless inductive process. This guy did a nice job of building a demo, but you can't make "did work" or "didn't work" assumptions based on a crude model using inherently limiting tech. A real problem with a useful flywheel in a vehicle is mass & gyroscopic precession. Serious gyro's need to be gimballed. Bolted on solidly and spun up to maximum, you could literally have a vehicle that wouldn't turn, or would hang rigidly in space by a wheel if you went down an incline.

My favorite - Professor Eric Laithwaite gives a demonstration of a large gyro wheel
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JRPC7a_AcQo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GeyDf4ooPdo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0L2YAU-jmcE

https://beaconpower.com/islands-isolated-grids/
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: AzCal Retred on May 31, 2021, 06:20:46 am
Axman88 @ #26: " I do find it ironic that it often seems, that those most free of any time constraints, most absent of any need to be anywhere at any particular time, the retired community, seem most certain that they require the ability to travel at 60 or 90 mph, then take half the day so doing, only to return at the end of this time, to the same place they started "
A valid point. As I age out, I find the 70+ MPG, 22 HP, 55ish MPH speed of the Pre-Unit Bullet appropriate for my "needs". There are several available 250cc machines that replicate this performance envelop at 100 pounds less weight. A 300 pound H2 fuel cell e-bike with a 300 mile range and 35 - 45 top end should be doable. Probably an additional 100 pounds of batteries could give you a machine that covers 150 miles between charges.

The question I have is why do all this instead of just using a "renewable" hydrocarbon fuel like bio-diesel, alcohol or bio-gasoline? The energy storage capacity of these liquids is proven. Hydrocarbon chemistry can make virtually any compound given appropriate feedstock. Chemical Recycling of plastic is available tech and produces essentially "crude oil" if the process is built for that output. Wouldn't it have to be cheaper to  use synthetic recycled hydrocarbon fuel than completely rebuild the transportation infrastructure?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plastic_recycling

Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: Nitrowing on May 31, 2021, 01:10:05 pm
"you can't make "did work" or "didn't work" assumptions based on a crude model using inherently limiting tech."
Affordable tech.
Yeah, a serious flywheel setup wouldn't allow him to go around bends  ;D
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: axman88 on June 05, 2021, 06:51:39 am
I was researching recovery rates for regenerative braking on electric vehicles, when U-tube decided it was appropriate to offer me a look at this fellow's bicycle flywheel experiment.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gahKxbwUcYw

It certainly does look like it works, and could even be a quite useful gadget, if one's route consisted of lots of long, straight downhill runs, with busy cross streets at the bottom of the hill.   But, the gyro effects and extra cost, complexity, and mass seem to make it impractical for the average rider.

As far as recovery rates for regenerative braking on E-vehicles, my impression is that this feature is not much more at present than a something for salesman to point out, "WE got it, and theirs ain't!"  Even highly advanced Tesla isn't saying much more in print than, "it theoretically COULD be as high as, ....".   The calculation involves multiplying out all the efficiency factors for the various conversions, chemical / electrical x electrical / mechanical x drive train efficiency, then squaring that, because at BEST, the same efficiency factors apply to recovering the energy.  In the real world, I suspect the flywheel would recover a higher percentage of energy than regenerative braking, because motors are optimized to convert electricity to mechanical power, not visa versa, and because the two least efficient energy conversion steps don't apply to flywheels.

Reports of real world experiments with vehicles equipped with the regenerative braking feature were suggesting numbers like 15 -20% had been attained, and that the system is only really practical when one is traversing long downhill runs, where braking is required for safety or to meet legal restrictions.  In general, a much better strategy to conserve energy, is to do what comes natural on our human powered vehicles, when faced with an imminent stop, start coasting.

Such a strategy would make one extremely unpopular commuting in a car in an urban setting, one is expected to drive the speed limit, regardless of what lies 100 feet down the road, but there is more freedom for the bicycle.  Since I've started riding bicycles again, I find that there are long stretches on my work commute, where a 60+ year old man on a bicycle can, over a distance, easily keep up with vehicle traffic.  It's classic turtle and hare, I pass them in their stoplight queues, and they pass me between the lights.  Sometimes this happens 3 or 4 times in a row.  I was very surprised to find that after only a week of bicycle riding, I was able to match, or beat my automobile commute time.   Once I go electric, I think this will become absolutely no contest in favor of the bicycle.
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: derottone on June 05, 2021, 08:32:35 am
KERS..kinetic energy recovery system,  I believe the Formula 1 used some mechanical system employing a flywheel, adding a boost of some 60-80 hp when exiting the corner.

Probably the F1 regulations don't allow the use of engines of adequate horsepower.

In electric vehicles and bikes it doesn't cost any extra hardware to add the KERS function, which is why mostly all large manufacturers will have it included. It might be a bit challenging to implement it in a way so it remains unnoticed by the rider.
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: Richard230 on June 05, 2021, 02:42:01 pm
I was researching recovery rates for regenerative braking on electric vehicles, when U-tube decided it was appropriate to offer me a look at this fellow's bicycle flywheel experiment.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gahKxbwUcYw

It certainly does look like it works, and could even be a quite useful gadget, if one's route consisted of lots of long, straight downhill runs, with busy cross streets at the bottom of the hill.   But, the gyro effects and extra cost, complexity, and mass seem to make it impractical for the average rider.

As far as recovery rates for regenerative braking on E-vehicles, my impression is that this feature is not much more at present than a something for salesman to point out, "WE got it, and theirs ain't!"  Even highly advanced Tesla isn't saying much more in print than, "it theoretically COULD be as high as, ....".   The calculation involves multiplying out all the efficiency factors for the various conversions, chemical / electrical x electrical / mechanical x drive train efficiency, then squaring that, because at BEST, the same efficiency factors apply to recovering the energy.  In the real world, I suspect the flywheel would recover a higher percentage of energy than regenerative braking, because motors are optimized to convert electricity to mechanical power, not visa versa, and because the two least efficient energy conversion steps don't apply to flywheels.

Reports of real world experiments with vehicles equipped with the regenerative braking feature were suggesting numbers like 15 -20% had been attained, and that the system is only really practical when one is traversing long downhill runs, where braking is required for safety or to meet legal restrictions.  In general, a much better strategy to conserve energy, is to do what comes natural on our human powered vehicles, when faced with an imminent stop, start coasting.

Such a strategy would make one extremely unpopular commuting in a car in an urban setting, one is expected to drive the speed limit, regardless of what lies 100 feet down the road, but there is more freedom for the bicycle.  Since I've started riding bicycles again, I find that there are long stretches on my work commute, where a 60+ year old man on a bicycle can, over a distance, easily keep up with vehicle traffic.  It's classic turtle and hare, I pass them in their stoplight queues, and they pass me between the lights.  Sometimes this happens 3 or 4 times in a row.  I was very surprised to find that after only a week of bicycle riding, I was able to match, or beat my automobile commute time.   Once I go electric, I think this will become absolutely no contest in favor of the bicycle.

I have been riding electric motorcycles for the past 12 years and I can tell you that the power generated by the motor and put back into the battery on a motorcycle when slowing is not very much. My first two electric motorcycles had a device that kept track of the regeneration effect and on my other motorcycles I just estimated the impact of regen based upon any increase in the battery's displayed State of Charge on the instrument display. Under normal riding conditions you can expect about a 1% to 3% range increase from regeneration. The higher figure would result from city travel, with a lot of stop and go riding.  However, cars can do better, apparently due to their greater mass and more powerful motors, which results in the manufacturer being able to up the regen without worrying about the tires skidding on wet pavement.
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: Richard230 on June 06, 2021, 01:47:50 pm
In the future when you are riding electric motorcycles and want to make modifications to them, you can look forward to modifying something like this.   :o

Happy wrenching!  ;D
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: derottone on June 06, 2021, 01:54:44 pm
In the future when you are riding electric motorcycles and want to make modifications to them, you can look forward to modifying something like this.   :o

Happy wrenching!  ;D

Yup, you are going to have to be Albert Einstein to figure it out.  ;D

....and no time for lunch.
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: Nitrowing on June 06, 2021, 02:42:17 pm
Going to have to wear thick rubber gloves too  :-[
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: GlennF on June 07, 2021, 01:57:07 am
If only you could still buy the Roper Steam Velocipede ...

(http://www.ebikeportal.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/roper-steam-engine-velocipede-3.png)

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/58/The_Greatest_Mechanical_Exhibition_in_the_World._Roper_steam_handbill.png/260px-The_Greatest_Mechanical_Exhibition_in_the_World._Roper_steam_handbill.png)

(http://www.ebikeportal.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/roper-steam-engine-velocipede-1-300x165.png)

Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: zimmemr on June 07, 2021, 02:25:05 am
If only you could still buy the Roper Steam Velocipede ...

(http://www.ebikeportal.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/roper-steam-engine-velocipede-3.png)

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/58/The_Greatest_Mechanical_Exhibition_in_the_World._Roper_steam_handbill.png/260px-The_Greatest_Mechanical_Exhibition_in_the_World._Roper_steam_handbill.png)

(http://www.ebikeportal.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/roper-steam-engine-velocipede-1-300x165.png)

This is one I did a small amount of work on. The builder was an engineer at Lycoming, and did ride it for short  distances. It's owned by Connecticut Antique Machinery Association and is on display at the CAMA museum in Kent Connecticut.
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: Nitrowing on June 07, 2021, 03:32:36 am
This is one I did a small amount of work on. The builder was an engineer at Lycoming, and did ride it for short  distances. It's owned by Connecticut Antique Machinery Association and is on display at the CAMA museum in Kent Connecticut.
That looks awesome  8)
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: Richard230 on June 07, 2021, 02:11:59 pm
That is really cool!  ;D  But probably hot when it is running.  ;)
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: zimmemr on June 07, 2021, 03:25:07 pm
That is really cool!  ;D  But probably hot when it is running.  ;)

I'm told that it was literally like trying to ride a wood stove down the road. Due to state regulations concerning live steam we've never fired it up. The state inspector just looked at it and laughed when we asked him to sign off on it. For display we run it on compressed air, it attracts a lot of attention during our festivals.
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: Nitrowing on June 07, 2021, 03:57:34 pm
The state inspector just looked at it and laughed when we asked him to sign off on it.
I'll wager the guy who built it knew a damned sight more than the 'inspector'  ::)
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: zimmemr on June 07, 2021, 05:43:30 pm
I'll wager the guy who built it knew a damned sight more than the 'inspector'  ::)

I dunno about that. The builder was a very bright guy, but the guy that does the boiler inspections for the state of Connecticut and is responsible for signing off on anything powered by steam, be it a stationary engine, a traction engine or a restored locomotive is very well respected by the guys that actually restore that kind of stuff and work with steam. The big fear is that when he retires there won't be any one to replace him, and the state will contract it out to someone that doesn't give a shit.

FWIW the steam guys in our club have mentioned that one of the things they like about him is that he'll tells them in no uncertain terms what he requires to pass an engine that will be run in a public setting. What schedule pipe etc, as long as they comply he's happy.
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: Nitrowing on June 07, 2021, 06:03:18 pm
state will contract it out to someone that doesn't give a shit.
Yeah, that's what I normally have to deal with  >:(
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: zimmemr on June 07, 2021, 07:38:19 pm
Yeah, that's what I normally have to deal with  >:(

I feel for you, I've been there. I think what's worse is when they do give a shit, but are utterly clueless about everything else.  >:(
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: Nitrowing on June 11, 2021, 12:58:27 am
https://hackaday.com/2021/06/10/a-self-driving-bicycle-is-something-to-marvel-at/

"The performance of the system is impressive, and is even able to hold the bike perfectly upright while balanced on a fence rail. Thanks to an onboard camera and LIDAR system, the bike can also drive itself around with no rider on board."
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: Richard230 on June 12, 2021, 02:43:24 pm
Here is a surprise to me. Revzilla is now selling e-bikes through their internet motorcycle accessory store.
https://www.revzilla.com/ebikes
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: derottone on June 12, 2021, 03:06:11 pm
That could be the beginnings of the "bright" future they make in Sweden and California.  8)
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: AzCal Retred on June 12, 2021, 11:56:52 pm
Germany seems to have a lot of EV's & PHEV's. You have a deposit on one yet?

https://insideevs.com/news/504204/germany-plugin-sales-march-2021/
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: derottone on June 13, 2021, 07:48:39 am
Germany seems to have a lot of EV's & PHEV's. You have a deposit on one yet?

https://insideevs.com/news/504204/germany-plugin-sales-march-2021/

Company cars? Probably. No I don't need a car at the moment and I'm not interested to go anywhere until the covid is resolved and the government that inflicted those wounds is out of office - which may indeed be never.
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: derottone on June 13, 2021, 09:20:18 am
Germany seems to have a lot of EV's & PHEV's. You have a deposit on one yet?

https://insideevs.com/news/504204/germany-plugin-sales-march-2021/

Yup, must be the parasitic an subidised companies and households getting into the EV's and PHEV's. Economic perpetual machine works for a few atleast.
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: AzCal Retred on June 13, 2021, 07:16:47 pm
It could also be the free electric/hybrid car battery charging aspect from your own homes PV array, as well as a stipend from "ancilliary services (voltage & VAR support)" to the Grid. Get a new Leaf, you are missing out. Even a motorhome (caravan?) can support 2 KW of panels, and a Leaf makes a great 100 mile round trip grocery getter. Or are meals supplied at the Home?  ;D
https://www.caranddriver.com/nissan/leaf
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: derottone on June 13, 2021, 07:47:20 pm
It could also be the free electric/hybrid car battery charging aspect from your own homes PV array, as well as a stipend from "ancilliary services (voltage & VAR support)" to the Grid. Get a new Leaf, you are missing out. Even a motorhome (caravan?) can support 2 KW of panels, and a Leaf makes a great 100 mile round trip grocery getter. Or are meals supplied at the Home?  ;D
https://www.caranddriver.com/nissan/leaf

We are still couple of years behind that "reality" in Germany, in 5-10 years maybe.
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: AzCal Retred on June 13, 2021, 08:01:42 pm
Au contraire mon frère. Germany is a leader here. PHEV's are real and readily available - just break out the old chequebook and be sure to retain the counterfoil for your subsidy paperwork. You're living in the future, son...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plug-in_electric_vehicles_in_Germany
The stock of plug-in electric vehicles in Germany is the largest in Europe, as of December 2020, cumulative registrations in Germany totaled 700,419 plug-in electric passenger cars since 2010, consisting of 362,559 all-electric cars and 337,860 plug-in hybrids.[7][8][9][10][20] In addition, Germany had a stock of 21,890 light-duty electric commercial vehicles in 2019, the second largest in Europe after France.[21] As of March 2020, the country had 27,730 public charging stations.[22]
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: derottone on June 13, 2021, 08:18:19 pm
Where I live I see only one electric car in the entire place, haven't seen a single electric motorcycle yet. However plenty of electrified bicycles, lot of retirees use them for their practicability.

You should not believe everything you Google up.  ;D

362.558 EV circulate around Berlin maybe, to make sure Mrs Merkel feels in control.
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: Richard230 on June 13, 2021, 09:11:12 pm
Where I live in the San Francisco Bay Area it seems like every other car is a Tesla Model 3.  :o Those things are selling like hotcakes around here.
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: derottone on June 13, 2021, 09:22:16 pm
Where I live in the San Francisco Bay Area it seems like every other car is a Tesla Model 3.  :o Those things are selling like hotcakes around here.

You may see lot of electric crap in Sweden too, they might have some genetic or ethnic order thou. If you are in that category than probably the stupidest job in that place will pay you the 60k$ for the Model 3 so you may buy a new one every year. Maybe you have to be connected to that Greta foundation, who knows.

I'm pretty glad I don't have to see that place again, than all the arabs in huge Mercedeses, who have been on welfare for the entire life. Can't see that s#it, seriously can't.
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: Stanley on June 13, 2021, 10:12:35 pm
I just returned from a 500 mile round trip to Cambria CA from San Diego. Teslas were so common it was hard to count them. Many parking lots have charging stations now.

As much as PVC valves, seatbelts and unleaded gas rattled geezers years ago, change is a constant.
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: derottone on June 13, 2021, 10:28:45 pm
Great, but keep that mandatory change in California and Sweds in Sweden. I doubt a State where the welfare recipients are paid better than those who have to clean their arses has any great future in front of them, seriously doubt that. There is tools to fix that, and it's getting fixed in Sweden.
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: Richard230 on June 13, 2021, 10:56:35 pm
California's state legislators are currently proposing a taxpayer-funded monthly income of between $500 to $1000 for those poor souls who are categorized as "under-served" by the state, including "undocumented" migrant residents who jumped the southern border and voters who are not interested in working for a living. As near as I can tell, that won't include "illegal" Swedes or Canadians that are stuck here because the northern border is locked down by Canada, apparently to keep Americans from having a good time in their country feeding mosquitoes during the summer.  ::)
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: derottone on June 14, 2021, 06:59:30 am
The arabic clans in Sweden have definitely prospered due to the Stockholm syndrome. To keep their pillage potential down the welfare states only way to deal with them must have been to keep them well entertained and fed. Politicos solving issues with throwing money at them. You won't get to see many working on construction or building, if than as a supervisor or boss since they are the natural born "entrepreneurs".

They definitely came to rule and to spread their shitty restaurants maybe, without owning a restaurant and a Mercedes you probably are not a man in that community. In order to keep their restaurants running they may run behind you if they see you shopping in the supermarket.

At the assembly lines of Volvo you probably going to see the remains of the Swedish bikini team working who would unlikely set a foot to one of those restaurants where they would tell you how great Sweden is and how much you owe the place.

The coward sweds using EU citizens to deal with them, hiding themseved in the background. It's time they clean up their own mess. If you tell a Swedish Wanker something they don't like to hear they will connect to the Arabs quickly though, and probably send you couple of them for a visit. Ratts, disgusting ratts.
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: derottone on June 14, 2021, 09:58:07 am
The Swedish Mercedes CEO probalby want´s to turn Stuttgard into the same thing I could imagine, where the "management" doesn´t run a vehicle company but a private gestapo extorting everyone in that city. Might be time to build a big fat wall around it.
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: Richard230 on June 14, 2021, 02:13:22 pm
Wow! Sweden sounds worse than California.  ;)
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: derottone on June 14, 2021, 02:50:22 pm
Wow! Sweden sounds worse than California.  ;)

It's an Islamic State and they don't even have muslims.
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: AzCal Retred on June 14, 2021, 02:56:39 pm
Ohhh...I just realized that this thread was about the "Extremists-Bike" developments...maybe I'll look on FaceBook for the rest of the technical discussion part, the echo chamber is over here now.
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: derottone on June 14, 2021, 03:40:02 pm
Ohhh...I just realized that this thread was about the "Extremists-Bike" developments...maybe I'll look on FaceBook for the rest of the technical discussion part, the echo chamber is over here now.

Well, they've got no issues marketing supposedly "extreme" designs which are not theirs. They do "whatever it takes" to get them.
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: Nitrowing on June 14, 2021, 03:52:15 pm
Ohhh...I just realized that this thread was about the "Extremists-Bike" developments...maybe I'll look on FaceBook for the rest of the technical discussion part, the echo chamber is over here now.
Yeah, I tried posting something relevant   ::)
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: derottone on June 14, 2021, 04:56:14 pm
Yeah, I tried posting something relevant   ::)

Question, what's there to develop on an elecric bike?

...Marketing?  ;D ...I don't care much about that.
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: Richard230 on June 14, 2021, 05:41:36 pm
Here is something kind of relevant: An article in my newspaper yesterday said that the U.S. EPA is in love with ICE vehicles and doesn't like electric vehicles because they don't emit emissions that they are trying to regulate and control. If EVs were all there were to regulate they would be out of the vehicle regulating job. And that would suck for those government employees.  :'(
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: AzCal Retred on June 14, 2021, 05:50:59 pm
Given the sensitive state of world affairs, I'm thinking "they" may be looking at extremist posts a lot harder. Our prevalence of nutball shootists recently on this side of the Pond may be instructive to the Bundespolizei or BPOL. With far-right extremism on the rise, the BPOL is of necessity doing a lot more monitoring. A smart guy wouldn't step into the gunsights willingly. Maybe a "Dark Web" forum would be a better place for informative political opinion sharing, you know, the ones "impossible" for the NSA or BND, BfV, or LfV to access. Or you could just dig the hole deeper. Or you could use this forum more on topic instead of as a spleen venting opportunity, that'd be nice for a change. I know you are able to do so, we've seen it many times. That guy's a real asset.
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: derottone on June 14, 2021, 06:00:51 pm
Well, that's the issue. The Swedish figured accordingly to some "statistics" that if you drive a BMW than you are a nationalist with a probability of 80ish %, which is why they confiscated my BMW. I'm pissed off...

...fu#c they confiscated everything that was mine including wife and kid. I want that country to be blown up in a nuclear strike.

Here an entertaining documentary how they operate. They probably think it's funny...

https://www.svtplay.se/video/30418688/uppdrag-granskning/uppdrag-granskning-9-mars-19-00?id=eyV5J9v&fbclid=IwAR0i1LDFJTnqQAe8Xrz1Xa23G-ZlUh2tuO0B25kNW5n6isKZtZiZoMAOlT4

...the documentary itself is most likely a part of the scam.
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: Nitrowing on June 14, 2021, 07:51:40 pm
Question, what's there to develop on an elecric bike?

...Marketing?  ;D ...I don't care much about that.
Derrottone, if you were one of my mates I'd have dragged you to a doctor a few weeks ago.
Seriously, go and see a doctor  :-\
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: derottone on June 14, 2021, 08:05:29 pm
Yeah, I'm going to do that. Thanks for the advice, asperger pays well.
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: AzCal Retred on June 14, 2021, 09:11:51 pm
Aspergers isn't a bad thing. It allows you to think deeply about topics or subjects. The downside is that what the other meat puppets around you are thinking & why aren't obvious to the Aspergee. Most of the really good techs I've been around are on the "spectrum" and have idiosyncrasies. But you do need to learn how to stay out of trouble. Like Rodney King said - "Can't we all just get along?".

My take on this was formed when my sister was taking a class on stone tool making. Simple Flake tools are a pretty obvious step. Not so obvious is taking a large flint nodule, visualizing the two or three dozen blades hidden inside, then precisely striking off these from a worked core. A "normal" guy would never "see" these blades stacked up like that. Functional Aspergers folks able to work such witchery were a real asset to the group, worth keeping fed and out of the rain.

Anyhow, we all have issues and all use coping strategies. Only the uber-wealthy don't need to get along, for the rest of us survival is enhanced by cooperation. Less stress, more fun too.
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: derottone on June 14, 2021, 09:44:36 pm
Fyi...cooperation works when there is mutual benefit.  ;)

...only downside, cooperating with Gretas, otoh they travel the world and distribute cash to some unknown politicians all over the world.
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: AzCal Retred on June 15, 2021, 01:04:13 am
?!? :-X
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: GlennF on June 15, 2021, 01:10:06 am
According to this guy the problem is they are trying to sell Electric Motorcycles to cycnical old fart's with a bike licence and money (like inhabit this forum) who would otherwise buy a Triumph or Harley - whereas the true market demand is for light weight licence free bikes for hipster city chicks to ride to the office ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O2zlYpy6QCM
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: Nitrowing on June 15, 2021, 01:45:07 am
According to this guy the problem is they are trying to sell Electric Motorcycles to cycnical old fart's with a bike licence and money (like inhabit this forum) who would otherwise buy a Triumph or Harley - whereas the true market demand is for light weight licence free bikes for hipster city chicks to ride to the office ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O2zlYpy6QCM
Another great video from fortnine  ;)
He's right (again) in what's happening.
When I got started with bikes (RD200) it was cheap, light-weight fun. That's what e-bikes should be.
If people then develop a passion, then manufacturers can build for that audience, not the other way around.

There's nothing on 2 wheels available to carry more gear than my GL1500 which is precisely why I bought it. If other conventional bikes can't compete, how would an e-bike??
Manufacturers should completely forget about me and build for people who need fun, light-weight and cheap to insure 2-wheelers.

An electric C90
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: derottone on June 15, 2021, 10:37:18 am
Another great video from fortnine  ;)
He's right (again) in what's happening.
When I got started with bikes (RD200) it was cheap, light-weight fun. That's what e-bikes should be.
If people then develop a passion, then manufacturers can build for that audience, not the other way around.

There's nothing on 2 wheels available to carry more gear than my GL1500 which is precisely why I bought it. If other conventional bikes can't compete, how would an e-bike??
Manufacturers should completely forget about me and build for people who need fun, light-weight and cheap to insure 2-wheelers.

An electric C90

There can't be a passion for electric motorcycles ever. There just isn't anything to do with them. The maintenance will be limited to tires and brakes, everything else that may fail will fly directly in the garbage and will be replaced.

It's like mobile phones, you have one today and another tomorrow. I don't see folks polishing their 30 years old bikes and considering the patina on the battery an added value. I just don't.

The main reason why they are not a widespread consumer item yet is the technical downsides and price, which we already know about.
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: zimmemr on June 15, 2021, 01:05:22 pm
There can't be a passion for electric motorcycles ever. There just isn't anything to do with them. The maintenance will be limited to tires and brakes, everything else that may fail will fly directly in the garbage and will be replaced.

It's like mobile phones, you have one today and another tomorrow. I don't see folks polishing their 30 years old bikes and considering the patina on the battery an added value. I just don't.

The main reason why they are not a widespread consumer item yet is the technical downsides and price, which we already know about.

We don't agree on much, but I think you've nailed this. E-bikes no matter how practical or technically advanced they become just don't elicit the same kind of passion that ICE bikes do. They are commodities and nothing more. It's hard for me to imagine anyone feeling the same way about an electric bike, no matter how well made it is as they might feel about something like an SS900 Ducati for one example.
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: derottone on June 15, 2021, 01:29:22 pm
The designers might call it "soft values" of the product, which the corporate management likes to talk about, however its rarely understood by the techs neither the bean counters, probably by the management as well.

If you were Swedish agreeing would probably mean disagreeing though.   :D

Another issue which the elecric car makers strongly underestimate at least in Europe is that the second hand marker is extremely limited. They are not likely to sell many used electric cars to Eastern Europe, Africa or Russia when the infrastructure exists only in some select capitols like Berlin or Stockholm. That might mean an extreme price depreciation on those EVs, another reason anyone on a budget may shy away.
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: zimmemr on June 15, 2021, 02:06:01 pm
The designers might call it "soft values" of the product, which the corporate management likes to talk about, however its rarely understood by the techs neither the bean counters, probably by the management as well.

If you were Swedish agreeing would probably mean disagreeing though.   :D

Another issue which the elecric car makers strongly underestimate at least in Europe is that the second hand marker is extremely limited. They are not likely to sell many used electric cars to Eastern Europe, Africa or Russia when the infrastructure exists only in some select capitols like Berlin or Stockholm. That might mean an extreme price depreciation on those EVs, another reason anyone on a budget may shy away.

I'm not sure about the "Swedish" aspect of the conversation, but the rest of it makes a lot of sense. I hadn't considered resale, but that's a very good point.
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: derottone on June 15, 2021, 02:25:52 pm
Me neither, the wheel doesn't work say the swedish gurus, why they bother making any vehicles at all I don't know.
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: Nitrowing on June 15, 2021, 03:29:55 pm
Would a Ducati 916 not still look beautiful if it were electric?
Don't get me wrong, a lot of the passion is the sound of an engine. My wife thinks it's very bizarre that I can recognize engine configurations by the exhaust notes.
What sounds like a HD? What sounds like an Impreza... RG500... I hear a V8 and my eyes widen... these are the sounds of promises.
Electric motors just don't evoke any feelings in the same way as listening to a supercharger spooling or the opening of a dump valve.
It can't be solved either. The 2 stroke howl at 9000rpm is a cacophony to the majority of the public and they certainly won't appreciate it replicated by loudspeaker on an e-bike!
Electric motors are quiet because they're efficient. Without that heartbeat, manufacturers will have to start employing designers that understand visual beauty alongside the techs who can eke that last mile from the battery.
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: derottone on June 15, 2021, 03:40:24 pm
Yeah, car manufacturers already did that, sucked out money out of everything and threw it at the battery manufacturers and built huge battery plants.

And there they are, sitting, drinking coffee, waiting for a miracle, hoping that the capacity of the batteries doubles and the weight goes down by half, charging times to 5 minutes and the cost to the equivalent of an ICE + fuel tank. Kissing the Ring of Claus Schwab and Bill Gates in the hopes that they tax and rip off everyone even more so that they can keep sitting and drinking coffee for ever and celebrate their success of dumbing everyone down.  ;D
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: axman88 on June 15, 2021, 05:32:41 pm
We don't agree on much, but I think you've nailed this. E-bikes no matter how practical or technically advanced they become just don't elicit the same kind of passion that ICE bikes do. They are commodities and nothing more. It's hard for me to imagine anyone feeling the same way about an electric bike, no matter how well made it is as they might feel about something like an SS900 Ducati for one example.
I quite disagree.  If one looks at the work of the INDIVIDUALS who are creating these machines, it's obvious that they are quite passionate about their work.  Looking at the U-tube videos of the individuals who purchase Electric bikes and are enthusiastic, even evangelical about the bikes they have purchased, it's clear that here are people who are passionate about something that others have little interest in.  The days when men and boys worked on hot rods is long gone, those who retain the knowledge and interest in these things, are eccentrics, far in the minority.  Many folks these days have no interest in personally caring for, or even owning a car, or a motorcycle, or any form of personal transportation.  They will call Uber, have their groceries delivered, and develop keen and detailed knowledge of the technical workings of some virtual computer game.

The arguments that folks are making here, have been made before, years ago, by the men who loved horses.  "What right thinking person could ever love a machine in the way that they could a living, breathing animal?", they said.  And although I'm a city boy, and haven't spent much time at all around horses, it does seem like a good argument, a good horse seems clearly a better object of affection than a collection of steel, aluminum, and rubber.  I wasn't around for this debate, I grew up in the heyday of the internal combustion engine.  But it's fairly obvious that that we are now in the evening of that day, with a new heir apparent.

Just like the horse was replaced as man's prime mover, so will the ICE, and for very similar reasons.  Not because the horse was too slow, or too weak, or not efficient or reliable enough.  It was because they stank!
https://www.blog.greenprojectmanagement.org/index.php/2019/05/13/pollution-why-we-replaced-horses-with-automobiles/
https://thetyee.ca/News/2013/03/06/Horse-Dung-Big-Shift/

The evolution of this thread, which I originally established with the intent of discussing the application of maturing E-bike technology to practical, utilitarian WORK vehicles, and then was subsequently and unfortunately shifted to sporty two wheelers designed only for play, then to steam vehicles, to electric cars, and to finally to general resistance to the concept of E vehicles of all kinds, and curmudgeonly complaints about society, suggests to me that even attempting to discuss these ideas in this forum is futile.

Nevertheless, I'll present a few more leads to other vehicles that are in the same vein as those I originally presented. 

DHL Quad delivery cycles    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xaDzp_K0EPY
The Citkar Loadster, an enclosed pedi delivery vehicle     https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LLPfDC6JCUQ
The Quicab / Ciclotaxi, an articulated pedi taxicab      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N5KnzkTxBQw
The ONO transporter is in production.  Note the battery swap station shown at 1:10 in this video   
                               https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TFvPQXU_3-s

It appears to me that the technology has reached a level of maturity that allows it be relatively easily applied to diverse purposes.  There are multiple motor manufacturers, offering economical, efficient prime movers in a variety of power ratings and types.  There are several battery cell producers offering standardized, high quality individual cells, in industrial quantities, that are being packaged in various configurations, which are also fairly well standardized.  3 phase controllers, throttle, brake, display, and other ancillary components are cheap and readily available.  Even the connectors being used have achieved some level of standardization.  These factors are allowing the market to expand rapidly.

I can see real benefits, especially as infrastructure expands.  Because these vehicles purposefully meet the definition of "bicycle", they are allowed to use infrastructure under the relatively relaxed legal restrictions that are imposed on bicycles.  For example, here, I can use bike lanes, I can coast through stop signs, I can even go through red lights when there is no cross traffic, all with impunity.  For those of you, who may already be facing pressure to give up your driving privileges due to advanced age, such vehicles, lightweight, easily managed, and economical, offer the option of continued mobility.  Some even qualify as "personal mobility devices".
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: derottone on June 15, 2021, 05:41:34 pm
I very much agree with that, passionate INDIVIDUALS come up with attractive and/or interesting designs.

Mass market and consumer commodity like electric bikes are the other side of the story.

Regarding stink, I remember 2008 when they outlawed smoking in clubs and bars I almost couldn't bear the stink.  ;)
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: Nitrowing on June 15, 2021, 06:46:20 pm
In the UK, bicycles are supposed to follow the same road laws as other users regarding traffic lights etc so there's little benefit to using one over a moped other than running costs (tax/insurance etc).
Moped theft here is very high and (normal) bicycle theft is ridiculous - I've had 2 £1000+ mountain bikes stolen. My current cycle never leaves my sight when I take it out of the shed, which means I can't nip in to town with it. I know that the toe-rags will be off with it in seconds.
I'd love to put an electric rear hub on it but that just makes it more attractive to thieves.
There's only 1 secure area in our town for cycles and it's constantly full.
Steal my GoldWing... go on...

As business utility vehicles, electric vans etc, yeah, electric in the town centres are fine. Nissan do a decent van but it's unladen range is 70 miles. They need to get that up to over 400 miles to make any impact on what's currently available and used as duty vehicles.

Would I take an electric GoldWing? Hell yeah! It would have to out perform the one I already have though and, with existing technology, there's zero chance.
An electric 916 though....  8)
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: derottone on June 15, 2021, 07:09:56 pm
Thieving morrons, Sweden is full of them, I think they might consider it in that country as "taking entrepreneurial risk". Than they wonder that the FBI & Europol & Secret service & Military monitor their every step.

916 electric, why not building it yourself? Unlikely any massproducer will go on with it after so many failed to earn a buck with it.
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: AzCal Retred on June 15, 2021, 08:20:53 pm
@ #88: I have to disagree. Tech will easily solve the visceral experience aspect. In-helmet speakers will accurately replicate the sounds of whatever machine you select for the day. The engine electronics can accurately re-create the power delivery characteristics, handling nuance & idiosyncrasies of whatever machine you select it to emulate, it'll all be "fly-by-wire" anyway, fake throttle, shift lever, clutch lever. All this is just programming. You want a Honda Six? How about a Vincent Shadow? The sounds, shift points, occasional false neutrals, power delivery can all be replicated electronically. The sole drawback is that only the rider will know what "mode" he's in, only the rider has to hear the engine "throb" or "howl". This maybe actually be somewhat of a problem for the peer-pressure driven contingent. Given adequate power to meet a particular requested option, the rest is system application programming. Cars have had different driving modes for some time now, it's just a case of degree and market demand.
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: derottone on June 15, 2021, 08:31:26 pm
@94: How about VR glasses for everybody? If the "mass market" drives around in VR I won't have any issues riding around on a RE.  ::)
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: Nitrowing on June 15, 2021, 09:09:34 pm
Quite a few bikes are fly-by-wire and I know that back in 2007 the GSXR1000 had a mode selector switch for it's power curve  :o
Emulation may be fine for a lot of the mass market (I run emulators of 1980's computers) but 'faking' an engine, though possible, is not actually going to keep riders happy other than as a novelty function.

As for building an electric 916, while entirely feasible, it's going to be limited by todays technology to a range of 90? miles before requiring a few hours on the charger. I've no interest in sitting for 2 hours waiting to do a journey that should only take 2 hours. I had to do this in a Tesla last year - very frustrating!

Bikes need hot-swap batteries.
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: AzCal Retred on June 15, 2021, 11:21:16 pm
@ # 95: VR doesn't provide physical sensation, you'd need a mil-spec simulator for that. Maybe in a Hi-Tech arcade. The hard part is the bug-injector, where the various local species of flying insects are shot at you randomly... :o
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: AzCal Retred on June 16, 2021, 01:22:28 am
@ #96: If it has to be an electric bike, H2 fuel cell tech offers better range opportunities. But it would certainly be easier to just create a source for "bio-gasoline" and skip the whole rebuild the transport infrastructure. Petro is a proven energy storage medium. There is certainly no lack of ability to make this happen, just desire to do so.
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: derottone on June 16, 2021, 07:25:00 am
@ # 95: VR doesn't provide physical sensation, you'd need a mil-spec simulator for that. Maybe in a Hi-Tech arcade. The hard part is the bug-injector, where the various local species of flying insects are shot at you randomly... :o

All that's needed to provide that physical sensation is a red led that lights up every time you crash and an arab behind you with a billy club.

PS: and a cage around it, that configuration might solve most issues you may face in sweden, got to recommend it to them.
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: AzCal Retred on June 16, 2021, 05:20:40 pm
I like the other Derottone better - leave a note for HIM to come back... :(
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: zimmemr on June 16, 2021, 05:56:12 pm
I like the other Derottone better - leave a note for HIM to come back... :(

+1
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: derottone on June 16, 2021, 06:07:19 pm
 ;D...I'm serious, I think their social issues would be a thing of the past.
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: AzCal Retred on June 16, 2021, 06:23:58 pm
" and a cage around it, that configuration might solve most issues you may face in sweden, got to recommend it to them. "

So...how was that cage you were inhabiting?  ;D
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: derottone on June 16, 2021, 06:28:15 pm
" and a cage around it, that configuration might solve most issues you may face in sweden, got to recommend it to them. "

So...how was that cage you were inhabiting?  ;D

That you will see when I visit the place next time. Fx#ign sw@#is p#d0 jwz.
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: derottone on June 16, 2021, 08:51:48 pm
Well to be more precise, it was Buckminster who layed out the path to prosperity as he summarised it in his book "the critical path". The critical path is what makes all the green s#it possible in the first place, so it's an absolutely great idea to torture, extort, f@#ck, black&#&mail anyone who is working towards to that direction. Exactly as the sw@#ish fu#$ing jwz do.
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: AzCal Retred on June 16, 2021, 11:47:38 pm
Derottone#a, can you translate this last communique from Derottone#b? Something concerning about Buckminster Fuller and his book "The Critical Path". This book starts off claiming "Human life began in the atolls of the South Pacific, where the average sea temperature is closest to that of the human body", so I'm not too sure why Derottone#b believes it's the foundation for modern thought. It is interesting though, lots of clever ideas and informed speculation in it. But the same can be said for Clarke, Asimov, Verne, Niven, etc.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buckminster_Fuller

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Critical_Path_(book)
The following is a list of the main claims and opinions presented in the book, reported without discussion or criticism.
Part One ; The first part of the book explains the history and present state of the global economy.
Chapter 1 - Speculative Prehistory of Humanity
Human life began in the atolls of the South Pacific, where the average sea temperature is closest to that of the human body (p. 6). Rather than evolving from simpler organisms, humanity was of extraterrestrial origin and other organisms evolved from us (p. 7). From this base, humanity developed boat-building in Southeast Asia and colonised the rest of the planet (p. 15). There is evidence that the Bronze Age began in Southeast Asia (p. 17). Fuller's Dymaxion World Map is used to show the distribution of humanity over the Earth's surface. Over half the population lives in the regions watered by the Himalayan glaciers (p. 20).
Chapter 2 - Humans in Universe
Our knowledge of the spherical shape of the Earth is central to our understanding of ecology (p. 34). This knowledge probably originated in prehistoric times, was certainly known to the Ancient Greeks, but was then suppressed for centuries by organised religion because it was incompatible with the official story of a Heaven above and a Hell below (p. 43). There has been an evolution of religious ideas from those of the Egyptian pyramid-builders, whose ambition was to deliver a single individual, the pharaoh, into the afterlife, to the modern belief that everybody has a right to enjoy life on Earth (p. 51).
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: derottone on June 17, 2021, 07:56:38 am
Yes, nobody is going to produce or purchase a solarpanel with 3% efficiency when 20% is standard those days, its the essence of what Buckminster is saying.

Now, I don't care if the f@#in sw×÷is p@d0 jwz want to keep riding horses around their stinky farms that produce nothing of value, its not anyone's job to keep paying for it or maintain it for them for free.
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: derottone on June 17, 2021, 08:50:33 pm
Electric Bikes anyone.... :D ::) ;D ;D

(https://media1.tenor.co/images/816d9d84886dd621f47c0ee0097e0141/tenor.gif?itemid=11862021&t=AAXDw3pe9BoK7CmQ3g9YrA)
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: AzCal Retred on June 17, 2021, 10:47:18 pm
...still waiting for Derottone(a) to return... :(

If you found those last two responses written in a newspaper as quotes, you'd be hard pressed to make any sense of them. What's the point of doing that? It's not communication, just what is it? Where does the clear & concise guy wander off to? Let's get HIM back.
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: axman88 on June 18, 2021, 11:08:39 pm
In the UK, bicycles are supposed to follow the same road laws as other users regarding traffic lights etc so there's little benefit to using one over a moped other than running costs (tax/insurance etc).
Moped theft here is very high and (normal) bicycle theft is ridiculous - I've had 2 £1000+ mountain bikes stolen. My current cycle never leaves my sight when I take it out of the shed, which means I can't nip in to town with it. I know that the toe-rags will be off with it in seconds.
I'd love to put an electric rear hub on it but that just makes it more attractive to thieves.
That's unfortunate.  I've heard about this issue, which is supposed to be especially acute in London.

Here in Chicago, it couldn't be more different.  I have started riding my collection of old 3 speed "english racers", and these seem to be positively theft proof, I only occasionally lock one, in particularly exposed areas, but mostly rely on the general laziness of thieves, along with the relatively poor cosmetic condition of the paint to protect them.  One method that seems to work, I'll flip the bike over and leave it upside down, on it's seat and handlebars, an old trick we learned as kids to prevent some other kid from jumping on your bike and riding away faster than you could run him down from behind.

Mopeds have never been officially recognized locally, they don't exist legally and this makes riding one quite awkward, in my view.  They tend to be available used without titles, while the police want to look at them as motorcycles, which, like scooters, require registration.

Bicycles, on the other hand, are just generally ignored.  No registration, no license, no insurance requirements, no restrictions, and this seems to apply equally to those equipped with the 66cc china "whizzer" engines, which can be had in kit form for about $120, complete.  Cops just look the other way.  We have laws on the books that let a bicyclist go through stop signs, and red lights under certain conditions.  It's quite infuriating to the cage drivers.  They will curse the first few times I re-pass them while they wait at the traffic light queus, but by the third or 4th time, they seem to accept it.  I try to ride respectfully and safely.  I'm in my 60s.
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: GlennF on June 24, 2021, 01:21:53 am
Of course the ironic thing is the US which has plenty of oil is gradually going electric - whereas Australia with almost no local oil and an economy that will collapse in 6 week without continuous oil imports but able to make as much electricity as we want (coal power or green, we have the ability to generate plenty of both) is violently opposed to electric vehicles as "un-Australian" .
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: derottone on June 24, 2021, 10:58:00 am
Of course the ironic thing is the US which has plenty of oil is gradually going electric - whereas Australia with almost no local oil and an economy that will collapse in 6 week without continuous oil imports but able to make as much electricity as we want (coal power or green, we have the ability to generate plenty of both) is violently opposed to electric vehicles as "un-Australian" .

I'm not anti electric vehicles, however I doubt I would want to travel Australia in one. Now that travelling is restricted partially because of the CO2 reduction agenda its probably a non issue anyway. Those restrictions were apparently needed to promote the electric vehicles in a rather marxistic manner if you ask me. Now we are probably expected to love the "global warming" crowd.  ::)
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: Nitrowing on June 24, 2021, 10:01:55 pm
This is what I expected in the 21st century!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U2VRqJpQDlU
Also features briefly on here
https://youtu.be/qMOQJL7h42Q?t=440

Now, they're claiming
"0-60 2.5 SECONDS 124MPH 150 MILE RANGE"
http://ballisticcycles.com/

Of course, there's no mention of how much of our dirty money they want for their creation  ::)
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: GlennF on June 25, 2021, 04:58:17 am
Sails on a Motorcycle:

(https://www.chucksconnection.com/duma/duma04.jpg)

Though some people go the other way and add a motorcycle to their sailboat:

(https://pictures.topspeed.com/IMG/crop/201801/is-it-a-boat-is-it-a_1600x0w.jpg)
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: Richard230 on June 25, 2021, 02:12:58 pm
There was a fellow who rode his 2012 Zero ZF9 from New York to South America during the winter of 2012. He somehow managed to get as far as southern Brazil before his chassis finally gave up the ghost. He then married a local girl and turned the Zero's batteries and power train into powering a house boat, which had solar panels on its roof to recharge the boat's batteries. The last I heard about the fellow was when he posted a photo on the Electric Motorcycle Forum of the houseboat floating along a large river. At the time he was considering writing a book or internet blog about his adventure, but (to my knowledge) he never did.   :(
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: derottone on June 25, 2021, 08:38:42 pm
Sounds like a decent application for some batteries and solar panels in the middle of nowhere.  :D

Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: zimmemr on June 26, 2021, 08:37:11 pm
One of HD's first attempts at an e-bike.  :o There's nothing you can't do with a little imagination.  ;)
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: Nitrowing on June 26, 2021, 10:43:58 pm
One of HD's first attempts at an e-bike.  :o There's nothing you can't do with a little imagination.  ;)
https://www.indiatimes.com/technology/news/had-harley-davidson-listened-to-one-guy-they-d-have-had-an-electric-bike-40-years-ago-362572.html
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: zimmemr on June 26, 2021, 10:55:49 pm
https://www.indiatimes.com/technology/news/had-harley-davidson-listened-to-one-guy-they-d-have-had-an-electric-bike-40-years-ago-362572.html

Very cool, thanks for posting that. The image I posted was taken at Wheels of Time museum some years ago. I stumbled on it today while looking for something else. I had no idea the bike anything more than a curiosity.
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: GlennF on June 28, 2021, 02:50:29 am
Those 70's XLH Sportsters were not breathtakingly fast by any means but "top speed of 80 km/h and attain acceleration of 0 to 51 km/h in 5-6 seconds" is slow even for an XLH  :D
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: Nitrowing on June 28, 2021, 01:29:34 pm
Those 70's XLH Sportsters were not breathtakingly fast by any means but "top speed of 80 km/h and attain acceleration of 0 to 51 km/h in 5-6 seconds" is slow even for an XLH  :D
Yet HD could have developed something handed to them on a plate and had the jump on an entire industry  ::)
Meh, HD left a bad taste in my mouth after the Buell.
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: axman88 on June 28, 2021, 08:54:59 pm
Yet HD could have developed something handed to them on a plate and had the jump on an entire industry.
Gustave Trouve beat Steve Fehr to the punch by about 100 years:   https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/cars/article-9512103/We-test-replica-Gustave-Trouves-1881-rechargeable-electric-vehicle.html

And Mike Corbin's "City Bike" had already been in production half a decade earlier.  https://thevintagent.com/2018/08/23/the-current-mike-corbin-e-bike-pioneer/   
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: derottone on June 28, 2021, 09:34:29 pm
Quite a progress since than, like on everything, and still not good enough... ::)
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: zimmemr on June 29, 2021, 12:27:34 am
Gustave Trouve beat Steve Fehr to the punch by about 100 years:   https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/cars/article-9512103/We-test-replica-Gustave-Trouves-1881-rechargeable-electric-vehicle.html

And Mike Corbin's "City Bike" had already been in production half a decade earlier.  https://thevintagent.com/2018/08/23/the-current-mike-corbin-e-bike-pioneer/
I had a ride on one of Corbin's first E-bikes. He tried to get our shop to sell them, and brought one by. It was unrefined with way to quick throttle response, but it was well made, no surprise there, and a blast to ride. My boss thought it was a dead end.... :(
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: AzCal Retred on June 29, 2021, 12:39:27 am
Like everything else mechanical, all progress is driven by materials science. Existing battery tech is fine for 100-150 mile casual jogs, there just isn't sufficient energy density there to equal petro fuel energy storage numbers. Both charging infrastructure and recharge times are lacking for distance travel. IMHO the better solution is to synthesize hydrocarbon fuels from reclaimed carbon and electrolyzed H2 rather that completely reinvent the transport infrastructure; that tech exists already. Hybrid vehicles to optimize energy recovery already exist and work very well indeed, two examples are gracing my driveway now.
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: Richard230 on June 29, 2021, 01:29:09 am
About 12 years ago, Brammo brought by one of their pre-production Enertia electric motorcycles for the weekend to the California BMW dealership in Mountain View, CA, in an attempt to sign them up as a Brammo dealer. The sales manager at the time told me that the bike didn't run well and eventually just died. So they told Brammo they were not interested in their product. After that experience they didn't want anything to do with electric motorcycles.

But in 2017 they did become an Energica dealer after the distributor of that brand told them that they wouldn't need to repair or service the bikes as the importer had a service facility just a few miles away. That made the deal jell as the shop didn't want to have to train any of their technicians to work on the complicated Italian electric motorcycles. The are still selling Energicas at their Livermore, CA, dealership.

The Enertias were later attempted to be sold by Best Buy, who helped to fund Brammo. Unfortunately, that didn't work out too well for Best Buy.

Later Brammo developed their freeway-capable Empulse model, which could hit 100 mph and had a 6-speed transmission. After a few years they sold the Empulse to Polaris, who folded the bike into their Victory brand. Two years later they dropped Victory and the Empulse electric motorcycle went down the tube, also. The latest news is that Polaris will be using Zero motors, batteries and power train technology in their off-road 4-wheel vehicles.

Attached are two photos of the Enertia and two photos of the Italian Energica bikes that I took at California BMW in 2017.
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: derottone on June 29, 2021, 08:29:40 am
Like everything else mechanical, all progress is driven by materials science. Existing battery tech is fine for 100-150 mile casual jogs, there just isn't sufficient energy density there to equal petro fuel energy storage numbers. Both charging infrastructure and recharge times are lacking for distance travel. IMHO the better solution is to synthesize hydrocarbon fuels from reclaimed carbon and electrolyzed H2 rather that completely reinvent the transport infrastructure; that tech exists already. Hybrid vehicles to optimize energy recovery already exist and work very well indeed, two examples are gracing my driveway now.

The industry says that if you take electricity which is made from renewable sources a battery is still the best option you may have if you wish to use the grid as a power source.

Steam engines powered by renewable forest wood might make a comeback if you were to implement the H2 synthetic fuels solution to a large scale.

I've read recently that they run H2 busses in Wuppertal with great success, the birthplace of Friedrich Engels.  ::)

I agree though since "battery" is the "best" option it "must" be fought to dead since "Wemily" could feel neglected.
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: AzCal Retred on June 29, 2021, 09:50:58 pm
@ #127:
" The industry says that if you take electricity which is made from renewable sources a battery is still the best option you may have if you wish to use the grid as a power source. " True enough if the idea is to sell batteries for storage. Batteries are poorly suited for Utility grade energy storage needs, but if you want to maximize Capital Money spending, they're great.

The idea is to create storable, high-energy-density transportable fuel. Efficiency is a bit of a misnomer here, as the O&M on PV is almost nothing & sunlight is "free". Off peak renewables are ideal source to use for storage, as even at 40% round trip efficiencies, the end product is much more valuable (& profitable) than just selling your renewable energy into an off-peak market. Liquid hydrocarbons are what our society is geared up for, and if you are making them with captured carbon they are by definition "renewable".
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: derottone on June 29, 2021, 10:10:09 pm
I agree that it would be a fine solution to the end customer, the tough part might be to come up with a process that can compete with the battery cost or better beat it, electricity cost itself is low.

Than there is a question if electric power is needed to produce co2 neutral fuel at all.

https://eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2019-11/kift-hfn112619.php
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: Richard230 on June 29, 2021, 11:49:43 pm
Here is a company that is developing lithium metal batteries. The technology looks interesting, but also expensive and it will be awhile before we see it in consumer products like autos. The company is directing their batteries toward electric aircraft as they feel that market can support their high prices and will appreciate the power density of lithium metal batteries: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gJ1etjdsZAg
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: derottone on June 30, 2021, 07:44:22 am
The clip has the swedish northvolt representative in it, it screams - Vasa ship ahead, I want my tax money back.

When Swedish talk sustainability and zero co2 they mean ->

Sustainability-> sustainable free cash flowing in their pockets.
zero CO2 -> zero contribution to mankind or the market.
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: Richard230 on June 30, 2021, 02:34:34 pm
In the latest electric motorcycle news, Energica has developed a new drive motor that will be installed on their bikes soon. Here is a link to the article and press release: https://electricmotorcycles.news/emce-the-new-electric-motor-of-energica-motor-company/
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: NVDucati on July 04, 2021, 01:13:08 pm
Apologies if this has been posted elsewhere:
https://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/electric-motorcycle-concept-giant-hole-180000270.html (https://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/electric-motorcycle-concept-giant-hole-180000270.html)
(https://s.yimg.com/ny/api/res/1.2/RKr9qw.BSN81jOgwzEiy7A--/YXBwaWQ9aGlnaGxhbmRlcjt3PTk2MDtoPTUzOS41MjtjZj13ZWJw/https://s.yimg.com/uu/api/res/1.2/BuwKOIusyuMtPGN93ZptyA--~B/aD01NjI7dz0xMDAwO2FwcGlkPXl0YWNoeW9u/https://media.zenfs.com/en/robb_report_967/1ba6cc25bba13de88286d38e17a9708c)
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: Richard230 on July 07, 2021, 10:43:15 pm
Here is a link to an article regarding BMW's latest electric scooter, the CE 04. I wonder if that seat is as hard as it looks?  ::) The automatically-applied parking brake that functions when the side stand is deployed is a good idea. The TFT instrument display screen is a nice touch. At 504 pounds, it certainly is no lightweight. And of course, being a BMW there will be extra-cost factory features, such as are on the "Premium" version that will set you back an additional $1,650 over the base price of $11,795 in the U.S.

https://www.motorcycle.com/mini-features/2022-bmw-ce-04-first-look.html
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: Nitrowing on July 07, 2021, 11:05:51 pm
$20k for a 500lb moped  :o :o :o
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: Richard230 on July 07, 2021, 11:47:35 pm
$20k for a 500lb moped  :o :o :o

Well, more like $13,500 with the Premium Package. Even when you add to that transportation fees, taxes and other governmental fees, you will likely be under $15,000. Still, not quite as good a deal as an Asian ICE around-town scooter, that will sell for around $4K and have about the same performance and a longer range on a full tank of gas.
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: Nitrowing on July 08, 2021, 08:48:49 am
Still, not quite as good a deal as an Asian ICE around-town scooter, that will sell for around $4K and have about the same performance and a longer range on a full tank of gas.
...and doesn't attract BMW servicing costs  ;)
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: derottone on July 08, 2021, 11:02:15 am
...and doesn't attract BMW servicing costs  ;)

...I don't know what BMW charges since I usually service my vehicles myself and rarely owned a factory new vehicle. However the service cost and intensity on the UCE feels rather high, probably the 650 fairs better in that department.
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: Richard230 on July 08, 2021, 02:37:51 pm
...I don't know what BMW charges since I usually service my vehicles myself and rarely owned a factory new vehicle. However the service cost and intensity on the UCE feels rather high, probably the 650 fairs better in that department.

Around here, BMW dealers are charging about $200 an hour. But that is only a guess as they price their services by the lump sum and don't break out the labor by the hour, only the parts used are listed because they have to charge sales tax on each new part. A typical BMW service takes about 3-4 hours (claimed, although I have seen my motorcycle leave the shop in half that time) and BMW wants most parts removed to be replaced with new ones, like bolts, screws and gaskets.

I have no idea what is involved in servicing their electric scooters, but my Zero has only been back to the dealer once and that was for the 600-mile check up to make sure everything was properly assembled and adjusted at the factory. Since then I have replaced tires and brake pads myself and that is about it.   :)

Here is the official BMW factory spin about their new scooter. What an ugly mother. I bet it is banned in Italy as being offensive to Italian senses. And what is up with that orange fly screen?   ::)   https://electricmotorcycles.news/the-new-bmw-ce-04-unveiled/
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: derottone on July 08, 2021, 03:22:33 pm
It looks weird, I don't know what's up with the mfrg's,  maybe they are having hard time to come up with a designs that don't look alike?

The orange colour windscreen would bug me the least though.

https://www.zigwheels.com/news-features/news/novus-35000-electric-motorcycle-showcased-at-ces/32725/

....this one looks better, price seems better too.

Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: Richard230 on July 08, 2021, 04:26:40 pm
It looks weird, I don't know what's up with the mfrg's,  maybe they are having hard time to come up with a designs that don't look alike?

The orange colour windscreen would bug me the least though.

https://www.zigwheels.com/news-features/news/novus-35000-electric-motorcycle-showcased-at-ces/32725/

....this one looks better, price seems better too.

I don't know about that.  ??? When I see a hole I want to fill it.  ;D
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: Nitrowing on July 08, 2021, 07:18:47 pm
These mileage claims need testing properly.
100km from full charge... at what speed?
100km/h... for how long?
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: Nitrowing on July 08, 2021, 07:26:38 pm
https://www.funbikes.co.uk/p7836_funbikes-harley-fat-boy-red-road-legal-electric-scooter

"optimum range is circa 35 miles, the speed is approx. 30 mph and with a maximum rider weight of 200kg"

£1250

If that price came down to £999 I'd seriously consider one. I weight less than 70kg with all my gear on which gives me over 100kg carrying capacity!
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: derottone on July 09, 2021, 11:31:59 am
I don't know about that.  ??? When I see a hole I want to fill it.  ;D

Move to Sweden, you won´t succeed to plug the holes.  ;)
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: Richard230 on July 09, 2021, 10:27:26 pm
Speaking of E-bikes, I just finished reading the latest issue of Popular Mechanics magazine and they featured a Specialized mountain electric pedal-assist bike as a product that impressed them. What impressed me was the $13,000 price tag.  ::)
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: Nitrowing on July 10, 2021, 07:54:20 pm
After seeing that cute red scoot at £1250, I thought about converting my really low use mountain bike.
Then thought "Nope"!
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: axman88 on July 10, 2021, 08:22:03 pm
After seeing that cute red scoot at £1250, I thought about converting my really low use mountain bike.
Then thought "Nope"!
You can buy a kit that is complete, except for the battery, for considerably less money.  I got a 1000w, 48V wheel kit recently for about $200.  The battery set me back another $140.  I am hoping to cobble this kit onto an old cantilever framed cruiser, but there will definitely be some file work, some spreading of steel stays, and perhaps even a bit of welding involved. 

Dropout and fork width and axle diameters of 50 years ago didn't anticipate E-bike developments.  Modern mountain bikes are quite a bit easier, since the latest ones are generally designed to accommodate disc brakes and wide range derailleur hubs.   I have read that all that may be required is some boring out and filing of the fork or rear dropouts, and the rest is bolt-on.

Privately owned E-bicycles are starting to show up on northwest side Chicago streets this summer as relatively common sights.  Probably much more common in the downtown areas, I seldom visit, where parking is largely in high rise structures or underground and extremely expensive, on the order of $8/hr or $25/day.  Avoiding that expense alone would pay for a nice bicycle pretty quickly, not even considering gas, insurance, registration and the rest. 

Divy bike, our preferred local bicycle rental source, with a city contract and electronic bike vending stations for human and electric powered bikes in every neighborhood, started operating E-bicycles at least a year ago, and those are a very common sight indeed.  These are step through framed, heavy duty, very homely things.
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: Nitrowing on July 11, 2021, 09:21:57 pm
I got a 1000w, 48V wheel kit recently for about $200.  The battery set me back another $140.  I am hoping to cobble this kit onto
Wow! That's a big price difference!
I thought you were going to cobble it on to the RE fpr a second  ;D
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: GlennF on July 12, 2021, 12:55:49 am
Wow! That's a big price difference!
I thought you were going to cobble it on to the RE fpr a second  ;D

Don't you worry, people are already doing that:

(https://electriccycle.files.wordpress.com/2015/02/lr-img_1867.jpg)
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: Nitrowing on July 12, 2021, 07:40:04 am
Don't you worry, people are already doing that:

(https://electriccycle.files.wordpress.com/2015/02/lr-img_1867.jpg)
That looks much better than this one
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: Richard230 on July 12, 2021, 02:47:30 pm
There is something about the design of that battery enclosure of that Photon that creeps me out.  :o
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: axman88 on July 12, 2021, 04:22:07 pm
There is something about the design of that battery enclosure of that Photon that creeps me out.  :o
It does kind of look like it was influenced by the work of H.R. Giger.  I think it's the ribs?
https://www.artsy.net/article/artsy-editorial-nightmarish-works-hr-giger-artist-alien

Perhaps more effective than flat black and chrome skulls, in demonstrating how badass one is?
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: zimmemr on July 12, 2021, 04:42:02 pm
It does kind of look like it was influenced by the work of H.R. Giger.  I think it's the ribs?
https://www.artsy.net/article/artsy-editorial-nightmarish-works-hr-giger-artist-alien

Perhaps more effective than flat black and chrome skulls, in demonstrating how badass one is?

There was something creepy about it that I couldn't put my finger on, but you nailed it. It's what Alien would ride, or maybe what Ripley would use to chase him down. ;D
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: axman88 on July 12, 2021, 05:00:51 pm
Wow! That's a big price difference!
Mid-motor is what the E-bicycle industry is calling a motor located adjacent to the crank.  This setup is what we see on most E-motos, except for the lowest priced, and has the benefit of operating through the machine's gearing at the rear hub.  Mid motors include overrunning clutches operating both directions, if you pedal you don't drive the motor, and the motor can drive the sprocket without driving the rider's pedal crank.  Mid motors are also quite a bit more expensive, starting around $400, from what I've found.

Hub motors can be had for considerably less, like the one in the kit I mentioned.  Hub motors have the disadvantage of being forced to operate at the speed of the driven wheel, which considerably limits power output at low rpms, like when hill climbing.

There is a 3rd configuration, which incorporates planetary gearing into the hub motor, so the motor runs at a fixed ratio to, but higher rpm than, the wheel.  These are a decent compromise of cost vs. power output in my opinion.  I've found geared hub motors available for as little as $120, bare, without the rest of the required kit.

All varieties use 3 phase controllers to chop the DC into pulses driving 3 sets of coils.  The very best of these create shaped signals, which increases efficiency and reduces noise and heat.  Run of the mill controllers output square wave shaped pulses.
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: GlennF on July 13, 2021, 07:23:57 am
You guys clearly missed the motorcycle scene in the movie where the alien does the whole Tom Cruise motor cycle/Top Gun thing ...


(https://i.imgur.com/TogR5wf.jpg)
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: zimmemr on July 13, 2021, 12:51:46 pm
You guys clearly missed the motorcycle scene in the movie where the alien does the whole Tom Cruise motor cycle/Top Gun thing ...


(https://i.imgur.com/TogR5wf.jpg)

 ;D ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: Richard230 on July 13, 2021, 02:47:24 pm
Motorcycle.com has just reviewed Zero's revised 2022 FXE electric motorcycle. (Their cheapest and lightest model - and some people say the most fun to ride.) I think they did a nice job with the BNG and styling compared with the previous years' versions: https://www.motorcycle.com/features/2022-zero-fxe-review-first-ride.html
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: Richard230 on July 14, 2021, 03:19:08 pm
Long Way Home has a few funny words to say about BMW's new CE 04 electric scooter, including that they will no longer be building gas-powered scooters: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jenhOJaea98
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: derottone on July 14, 2021, 03:28:06 pm
BMW did not succeed on the gas powered scooter market in the past and won't likely in the future. Too much premium think in that company. Scooter customers want an affordable transportation in the first place not an "expensive" hobby which motorcycling is turning into, what a great success of our legislators.
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: derottone on July 14, 2021, 05:45:18 pm
I'm little bit war-footed towards the general idea of premium. A rolex submariner is premium not because it's got an incredible amount of functionality but because it's brand heritage, small amount of quality components and is a relatively precise tool to measure time although it will not stand thr competition with a quartz watch ever. Sometimes the "no date" versions of it are considered even more premium. Why can't it be with motorcycles little bit similar.  :o

Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: axman88 on July 14, 2021, 06:00:02 pm
The more I read about Storm Sondors and the company he started just a few years ago, the more impressed I am with their products, and their business model.  This is one instance where a company has turned modest kickstart capital into real value for their customers.   Their bikes are competitively priced, constantly being improved, attractively styled, and get good reviews from their customers and industry reviewers.  Of greatest interest to me, their products offer innovative engineering.

Have a look at the CAST aluminum frame that will be used on the upcoming Sondors Metacycle:  https://electrek.co/2021/06/23/closer-look-a-single-piece-of-aluminum-makes-up-sondors-metacycle-electric-motorcycle-frame/

If you are interested, I started a thread on the Sondors Metacycle, which is now just a few months from being in customers hands.   https://forum.classicmotorworks.com/index.php?topic=30235.0 

The one compromise that I'm not crazy about, ... this machine uses a hub motor.   In theory the hub motor saves a bit of weight by eliminating redundant structure, but I suspect this was done more to achieve the price point, than for any engineering reason.  It does keep the overall CG nice and low.  The battery can live in the lowest part of the frame.
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: AzCal Retred on July 14, 2021, 06:27:25 pm
Nice website -
https://sondorsx.com/pages/metacycle

The "chat" responder says the hub motor offers regenerative braking/charging, so that is a plus for the hilly terrain crowd. A small trailer with a Honda EU2000 generator and 5 gallons of gas would take you camping or on a several days outing. A 200W PV panel with maybe a 300W inverter wouldn't hurt and would fit on a small trailer too. No word yet on the "pony" battery cost, but possibly in the neighborhood of $1000?
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: axman88 on July 14, 2021, 07:37:55 pm
A small trailer with a Honda EU2000 generator and 5 gallons of gas would take you camping or on a several days outing. A 200W PV panel with maybe a 300W inverter wouldn't hurt and would fit on a small trailer too.
My buddy camps like that.   His F-150 is so packed out, that he has to tie stuff on top of the tonneau cover, he was telling me last night that he just added a house battery system, with dedicated inverter and automatic charging relay.  His camping stuff is in dedicated tupperware bins, ready to go camping at a moments notice.  I've looked into these on occasion, there's stuff in there that looks like it hasn't been pulled out since Carter was president.

I'm on the other end of the spectrum.  I'd be more likely to carry a 30 foot extension cord, camp on the spot right next to the stinky bathhouse, and run my extension cord through the bathroom window at night for my next days charge.

No word yet on the "pony" battery cost, but possibly in the neighborhood of $1000?
Sondors makes a nice, removable "triangle" pack for some of their E-bicycles, so I'm sure they will come up with a nicely designed and engineered package, eventually.  The Metacycle is a 72volt system.  Right now, $1000 would buy you about 6.5 Kw hours of these generic, 36V 30 Ah batteries,  https://www.ebay.com/itm/393182339879,   which is 150% of the capacity the machine comes with.

Personally, I'd be disinclined to shell out for that add-on, the 80 miles of claimed stock range is a week and a halves worth of riding for me.    I ride almost everyday, but I ride more than 100 miles in one day only once every 3 years.  I think there are a LOT more folks like me, than there are Iron Butt riders, they just don't join forums to talk about what they use to get to work and the grocery store.  It would be like joining a forum to talk about your stove or your clock-radio.

This little scoot is no touring machine.  In my view, no E-vehicle is, .... yet.  Even if they never are, they can still manage probably 80%+ of the world's transportation needs.  And with increasing urbanization, that number goes up, every day.
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: Richard230 on July 15, 2021, 10:22:03 pm
You think gas prices are high? Check out the kWh prices on this charging station somewhere in Scotland. Two pounds per kWh for the first 3 hours and then 10 pounds per kWh after three hours. :o  I thought I had high electric power costs at home at 26 cents per kWh.
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: AzCal Retred on July 15, 2021, 11:00:53 pm
https://www.scotsman.com/lifestyle/cars/electric-cars-how-charge-them-how-much-it-costs-and-how-long-it-takes-2900371
" In Scotland, ChargePlace Scotland offers unlimited free public charging for a flat £20 annual payment. "

https://energysavingtrust.org.uk/service/electric-vehicles-and-chargeplace-scotland/
" the average electric vehicle (EV) will cost around 3-5p a mile to run, compared to 16-18p a mile for the average conventional vehicle fuel cost "

...and something for the EV disaffected... :o ;D
https://www.sundaypost.com/fp/plug-in-pay-out-give-updrivers-say-cost-is-the-biggest-barrier-to-opting-for-a-zero-emissions-car/


xx
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: axman88 on July 15, 2021, 11:03:24 pm
You think gas prices are high? Check out the kWh prices on this charging station somewhere in Scotland. Two pounds per kWh for the first 3 hours and then 10 pounds per kWh after three hours. :o  I thought I had high electric power costs at home at 26 cents per kWh.
One wonders if that is a Scotsman's attempt at a humorous meme?  I know it's not allowed to make these sorts of jokes any more, but aren't those folks known for their frugality?

This article, published about a year ago, suggests prices that are quite a bit more reasonable, and has some traceable provenance:  https://www.scotsman.com/lifestyle/cars/electric-cars-how-charge-them-how-much-it-costs-and-how-long-it-takes-2900371
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: GlennF on July 16, 2021, 02:23:55 am
I know it's not allowed to make these sorts of jokes any more, but aren't those folks known for their frugality?

The dour frugal Scot stereotype has a religious base. The Scottish Presbyterian Church was Calvinist and to some extent followed supralapsarianism, the belief that the "chosen" who will eventually be saved are predestined for salvation.  In terms of this belief you cannot actually know for sure you are among the chosen however there are certain sure signs you are NOT for example a lavish lifestyle is a sure sign you are not chosen.
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: axman88 on July 16, 2021, 03:24:17 am
The dour frugal Scot stereotype has a religious base. The Scottish Presbyterian Church was Calvinist and to some extent followed supralapsarianism, the belief that the "chosen" who will eventually be saved are predestined for salvation.  In terms of this belief you cannot actually know for sure you are among the chosen however there are certain sure signs you are NOT for example a lavish lifestyle is a sure sign you are not chosen.
That's interesting.  So, would you consider this the diametric opposite of "Prosperity Theology",  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prosperity_theology

 or, were supralapsarians encouraged to accumulate wealth as long as they saved their money, and did not spend conspicuously?
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: GlennF on July 16, 2021, 07:56:06 am
That's interesting.  So, would you consider this the diametric opposite of "Prosperity Theology",  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prosperity_theology

 or, were supralapsarians encouraged to accumulate wealth as long as they saved their money, and did not spend conspicuously?

There are even claims it drove the Industrial Revolution.  Calvinist/Supralapsarian views combined with the Protestant Work Ethic meant people were working hard and making money but were left with with no acceptable way to spend that money as a Calvinist, other than reinvest it back into their business, or possibly start a new one.  Upgrading to a lavish personal house or country estate was frowned upon, building new cargo ships, and creating new shops and factories with your money was not.
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: derottone on July 16, 2021, 04:15:18 pm
That's a ludicrous economic theory to say the least.
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: GlennF on July 16, 2021, 04:39:44 pm
That's a ludicrous economic theory to say the least.

Maybe (though it is more Sociology than Economics) I personally do not necessarily support it but it has been around for a long while.   

Max Weber in Die protestantische Ethik und der Geist des Kapitalismus talked about it as early as 1904.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Protestant_Ethic_and_the_Spirit_of_Capitalism

The idea still has some academic credibility even today: 

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/316747686_Calvinism_Huguenots_and_the_Industrial_Revolution

Weber's ideas were seem as a direct counter to Marx's claim that only economics could form a basis for social change.


(https://cdn.counter-currents.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/Weber1.jpg)

Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: derottone on July 16, 2021, 05:28:22 pm
And I thought capitalism has been there in the old Egypt already since the Pharao has been advised by Joseph to overproduce and save little bit for the rainy day.

Lot of rainy days recently in Germany, fortunately the infrastructure is not yet entirely electric since the areas hit are without electric power. Diesel trucks come for the rescue.
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: Nitrowing on July 16, 2021, 07:15:53 pm

Lot of rainy days recently in Germany, fortunately the infrastructure is not yet entirely electric since the areas hit are without electric power. Diesel trucks come for the rescue.
I was just thinking that while watching the news. Is an EV going ti cope with being drowned? An ICE just usually needs it's plugs taken out and spun over. Even if the EV does cope, will the chargers still be functional?
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: derottone on July 16, 2021, 08:57:33 pm
Someone will come up with a solution, i'm sure.
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: Richard230 on July 16, 2021, 10:39:51 pm
Someone will come up with a solution, i'm sure.

Such as hot air power emanating from politicians?  Surely an exhaustible resource.  ;D
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: Nitrowing on July 16, 2021, 10:40:55 pm
I'm going right off EV's...  :o
https://hackaday.com/2021/07/16/repair-hack-saves-tesla-owner-from-massive-bill/
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: Richard230 on July 17, 2021, 01:12:01 am
I should have typed an "inexhaustible" supply of hot air.   :-[
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: derottone on July 17, 2021, 06:47:26 am
I should have typed an "inexhaustible" supply of hot air.   :-[

Well you can open a shop than and sell fresh air in a can.  ;D
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: axman88 on July 17, 2021, 07:57:24 am
I'm going right off EV's...  :o
https://hackaday.com/2021/07/16/repair-hack-saves-tesla-owner-from-massive-bill/
Being as they choose affiliation with Royal Enfield, I'm guessing that most members of this forum support Right to Repair as a concept.  I've read that the EU has passed and is considering strengthening laws requiring manufacturers to supply spare parts and repair information for a period of up to 10 years on appliances and electronics.

And, just a week ago, as part of Executive Order 14036, "Promoting Competition in the American Economy", among other stipulations, President Biden instructed the FTC to craft rules to prevent manufacturers from preventing repairs performed by owners.  This seems like a step in the right direction.  Do you guys remember Sam's Photofact?
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: derottone on July 17, 2021, 08:13:25 am
This sounds really good. I can't wait to see the members of the eu commission to repair and maintain their vehicles themselves.  ;D
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: zimmemr on July 17, 2021, 06:14:49 pm
Being as they choose affiliation with Royal Enfield, I'm guessing that most members of this forum support Right to Repair as a concept.  I've read that the EU has passed and is considering strengthening laws requiring manufacturers to supply spare parts and repair information for a period of up to 10 years on appliances and electronics.

And, just a week ago, as part of Executive Order 14036, "Promoting Competition in the American Economy", among other stipulations, President Biden instructed the FTC to craft rules to prevent manufacturers from preventing repairs performed by owners.  This seems like a step in the right direction.  Do you guys remember Sam's Photofact?

The right to repair is a huge issue in the farm/construction/commercial fishing and trucking industries. You can magine the repercussions if a farmer's combine goes down during harvest or a fishing boat loses it's refridgeration and it can't be quickly and easily reparied. I give Biden credit for addressing the issue, it needs a solution.
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: AzCal Retred on July 17, 2021, 06:38:45 pm
+ 1 to that! Industry has no shame in preventing you from doing for yourself if they can make a bigger management bonus for themselves. The seed folks have really leaned hard on farmers growing, harvesting & planting their own seed. To not be able to repair your own hardware is unconscionable  for many reasons. Go Joe!
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: zimmemr on July 17, 2021, 07:24:08 pm
+ 1 to that! Industry has no shame in preventing you from doing for yourself if they can make a bigger management bonus for themselves. The seed folks have really leaned hard on farmers growing, harvesting & planting their own seed. To not be able to repair your own hardware is unconscionable  for many reasons. Go Joe!
+1 ;D
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: GlennF on July 18, 2021, 03:34:18 am
Solar panels in the wing and two e-bikes, one slung under each of the wings.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9dqTwUuKEM
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: derottone on July 18, 2021, 09:03:06 am
Solar panels in the wing and two e-bikes, one slung under each of the wings.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9dqTwUuKEM

That thing is going to be an air tank, no wonder he needs 780ci engine, with what 1000hp?  :D
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: GlennF on July 19, 2021, 05:29:17 am
That thing is going to be an air tank, no wonder he needs 780ci engine, with what 1000hp?  :D

Only about 800 with the NO2 from memory :D

Meanwhile there are other ways to avoid needing fossil fuels ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6RiYXI1Tfu4
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: AzCal Retred on July 19, 2021, 05:54:39 am
South of Barstow, Cal., just outside Newberry springs is a belt conveyor that delivers crushed cinder to the ATSF/BNSF for rail bed from the top of a nearby small cindercone. The beltway conveyor motors are used as inductive generators, the weight of the cinder at the top of the nearby mountain driving the generation process. Hydropower with rocks... :o ;D
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: derottone on July 19, 2021, 07:34:07 am
So you suggesting to build rope ways on the Mt. Everest that power generators and keep flattening the earth.  ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: GlennF on July 19, 2021, 09:12:19 am
So you suggesting to build rope ways on the Mt. Everest that power generators and keep flattening the earth.  ;D ;D ;D

Well according to some it is already flat.

If you shipped ice down Everest you could sell it and generate power at the same time.
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: derottone on July 19, 2021, 09:27:52 am
Well according to some it is already flat.

If you shipped ice down Everest you could sell it and generate power at the same time.

I like the idea, and fresh Everest Ice Tea, Lemonade and brew Mt. Everest beer with it. Where are the sponsors.   ;D

The work on the flat earth might prove of significant importance to mankind.  ::) ;D ;D
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: AzCal Retred on July 19, 2021, 03:45:53 pm
Ship ICE down Everest? No way - use the weight of that endless stream of "adventure climbers" that have bought a Walmart-esque  adventure ticket to stand atop the mighty peak for 15 seconds of fame. Add all the trash & excrement to the downhill load and you'd have some real megawatt potential there.
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: derottone on July 19, 2021, 05:31:04 pm
Ship ICE down Everest? No way - use the weight of that endless stream of "adventure climbers" that have bought a Walmart-esque  adventure ticket to stand atop the mighty peak for 15 seconds of fame. Add all the trash & excrement to the downhill load and you'd have some real megawatt potential there.

That could work, the stream won't ever stopp. Wanting to stop that would be like wanting the IOM TT to stopp.
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: Richard230 on July 24, 2021, 02:50:36 pm
Here are two YouTube videos published by a longtime electric motorcycle rider of the two test rides that he took at the 2021 Northern California Motorcycle Show that was held at the Sears Point Raceway, north of San Francisco last weekend.

The first one is of his ride on the new Zero FXE: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sbew-eR1YMw

And this longer one is of his ride on a new LiveWire One:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_83m3BeshUQ
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: GlennF on July 27, 2021, 10:47:04 am
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DzFT5ndMZ_Q
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: Richard230 on July 27, 2021, 02:47:19 pm
This looks like an interesting concept for swapping electric motorcycle batteries by a company in Brazil. They appear to have their battery swap station located in front of an existing gas station, which is likely a more secure and convenient location than something just sitting along side of a roadway: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n7EbjSGgdXk&t=8s

More information here:  https://electricmotorcycles.news/origems-mission-is-to-accelerate-and-democratize-the-access-to-electric-mobility-in-latin-america/
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: GlennF on July 29, 2021, 06:09:59 am
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hp7JcmwKQcU
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: AzCal Retred on July 29, 2021, 07:33:29 am
I see a lucrative possibility for computer savvy "midnite auto" boys to clean up here reselling pricey "lost" batteries to desperate riders and gas station operators after the machines/vendors dispensing slot RFID PLCs get convinced that "it's time for a swap" & open up at 3AM. Or maybe just ransomwaring your bike so you're stuck with the battery you have until a gratuity happens. There is the other issue of the separate, permanent onboard servo battery that operates the "open sesame" portal, it rather has to always work. It's entirely possible for things to become too complex. Everything can work well if we all just play nice & get along, but...being Brazil...isn't it easier to just have an alcohol fueled, 12:1 CR, GC125 with a 20L tank, or maybe a rack for a 5 gallon bottle of propane? No reliance on voodoo handshaking electronics and maybe a 600 Km. range, no $1000 lithium battery setting there to tempt the unscrupulous.
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: Richard230 on July 29, 2021, 02:13:21 pm
I see a lucrative possibility for computer savvy "midnite auto" boys to clean up here reselling pricey "lost" batteries to desperate riders and gas station operators after the machines/vendors dispensing slot RFID PLCs get convinced that "it's time for a swap" & open up at 3AM. Or maybe just ransomwaring your bike so you're stuck with the battery you have until a gratuity happens. There is the other issue of the separate, permanent onboard servo battery that operates the "open sesame" portal, it rather has to always work. It's entirely possible for things to become too complex. Everything can work well if we all just play nice & get along, but...being Brazil...isn't it easier to just have an alcohol fueled, 12:1 CR, GC125 with a 20L tank, or maybe a rack for a 5 gallon bottle of propane? No reliance on voodoo handshaking electronics and maybe a 600 Km. range, no $1000 lithium battery setting there to tempt the unscrupulous.

$1000? Where can you get an EV-capable battery for that low a price? $3K would be more like it in a package like is shown in that video. What I gleaned from reading the article is that the batteries would be leased to the owners of the bikes - if not the entire motorcycle. I just liked watching the way the system worked, But that does not mean that I would want to invest in one, or the company, for that matter.  ;)
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: axman88 on July 29, 2021, 06:50:37 pm
$1000? Where can you get an EV-capable battery for that low a price?
Do hybrid batteries count?
https://www.greentecauto.com/hybrid-battery/toyota-hybrids/prius-hybrid-batteries/prius-2004-2009/toyota-prius-gen-2

Something like this would make for quite a long range E-scooter, or golf cart, I'm thinking?

My brother told me that some guys he worked with, ( he's an EE for a company that makes space satellite communications equipment), were taking hybrids, and converting them to pure EVs some years ago.  As I recall he told me they would add a few more battery packs, and override whatever gadget decides when it's appropriate to start the engine.  Perhaps this was just for around town use.  I wasn't very interested at the time.
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: AzCal Retred on July 29, 2021, 07:57:41 pm
@ 198, R230: Being worth $3000 in Brazil might get you stuck in a bamboo cage in the foothills waiting for ransom money from your family!

A Rodney Dangerfield bit:
"I got kidnapped; they cut off the tip of my little finger and sent it to my Father. My Father says "I need more proof""...
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: Richard230 on July 29, 2021, 08:54:29 pm
@ 198, R230: Being worth $3000 in Brazil might get you stuck in a bamboo cage in the foothills waiting for ransom money from your family!

A Rodney Dangerfield bit:
"I got kidnapped; they cut off the tip of my little finger and sent it to my Father. My Father says "I need more proof""...

 ;D
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: AzCal Retred on August 12, 2021, 03:08:06 am
https://www.ultraviolette.com/f77.html

ULTRAVIOLETTE
We live by design, technology and user experience.
We are mavericks from across aerospace, automotive engineering and consumer electronics. Our sole mission in life - to redefine mobility.
“Almost there” doesn’t excite us.


Fuel Type:Electric
Range:130-150 km/charge
Battery Type:Lithium-ion
Charging Time:NA
Emission Type:NA
Max Torque:90 Nm / 450 Nm
(Motor)Max Power:33.9 PS @ 2250 rpm
Top Speed:NA
ABS:Dual Channel


https://www.financialexpress.com/auto/electric-vehicles/ultraviolette-automotive-indian-ev-start-up-aims-to-take-on-global-premium-bikes/2306146/?utm_source=Taboola_Recirculation&utm_medium=RC&utm_campaign=FE
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: Nitrowing on August 12, 2021, 02:05:11 pm
If companies want to produce electric bikes they need to hit a search engine for drawings of;
Akira
Bloodrunners
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: Richard230 on August 23, 2021, 01:40:48 am
Let's hope e-bikes have better batteries than Chevy Bolts.  :'(
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: AzCal Retred on August 23, 2021, 06:20:39 am
Likely 90% are OK, so it looks like it's time to head down to the Chevy dealer and see if I can get a pickup load of "repairable discards" for a home made "powerwall"....heh heh heh... 8)
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: Richard230 on August 24, 2021, 04:02:33 pm
I just updated the firmware of my Zero electric motorcycle. No need to visit my dealer (which I only did once for the 600-mile checkup). All I need to do is to turn on my bike, hit the Zero app installed on my cell phone and start the firmware download via the internet and my home computer. 20 minutes later I have the latest firmware update installed in my bike. While the process is going on, the bike's display screen flashes on and off quickly. Attached are photos of the app during the download and the screen during the download that is flashing all of the possible characters on the display.
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: derottone on August 26, 2021, 01:44:09 pm
https://m-global.davincimotor.com/

Another eBike called DC100 with decent performance although as with any eBike the esthetics of it are more impressive than the tech behind it. Interesting to see though that they apparently get away with an hub motor that must be a huge chunk of unsprung mass in such an performance bike.
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: Nitrowing on August 26, 2021, 02:28:20 pm
I'm trying to think of 2 uglier motorbikes  ???

Nope.
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: Richard230 on September 02, 2021, 02:56:19 pm
Here is a press release for the BMW CE 02 concept motorbike. It looks like it will be plant-based (scroll down to near the bottom of the page for pictures of the rider and his BMW accessory backpack).  https://thepack.news/bmw-motorrad-concept-ce-02/
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: AzCal Retred on September 02, 2021, 05:16:45 pm
Looks like the front & rear wheels might possibly interchange, like an older Vespa did. Handy feature for basic transport.
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: Richard230 on September 02, 2021, 08:51:39 pm
I think it might be BMW's concept of an electric Honda Grom for use in urban environments by Generation Z (18-24 years old) customers. Needless to say they will have to bring it to market at a more reasonable price than is typical for the company if they want to attract that crowd.  BTW, their model is riding the 02 with a big plant stuck in a backpack that extends over his head (the plant, not the backpack). The perfect way to carry your new pot plant around town.  ;)
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: AzCal Retred on September 03, 2021, 01:51:50 am
It could be that the price tag is part of the affluent hipster appeal.

"if you can pot plants, why can't you plant pot?"
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: derottone on September 03, 2021, 08:30:19 am
And the BMW Isetta look-alike as electric version. This might be something for the inhabitants of Paris.

https://www.tuvie.com/microlino-reveals-microlino-2-0-and-microletta-concept-for-future-urban-mobility/
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: axman88 on September 03, 2021, 04:35:50 pm
Here is a press release for the BMW CE 02 concept motorbike. It looks like it will be plant-based
(In best Crocodile Dundee imitation)  "That's not a plant based motorbike!  This is a PLANT based motorbike!"

https://i.natgeofe.com/n/cce5173e-c141-4f76-966a-59e8bce459a5/og_mf_rebel_riders_ng_0006_16x9.jpg?w=1200
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: AzCal Retred on September 03, 2021, 10:45:03 pm
First it was Kudlow whinging about having to drink "plant based beer", then I read an advert last night claiming they were selling "plant based bread".  At least your photo showed a fellow able to creatively re-task old scooter parts, that indicates a level of intellect far above what I'm seeing from the Alt-right media and ads in general.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/apr/26/trump-larry-kudlow-biden-plant-based-beer
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: Richard230 on September 03, 2021, 10:46:00 pm
(In best Crocodile Dundee imitation)  "That's not a plant based motorbike!  This is a PLANT based motorbike!"

https://i.natgeofe.com/n/cce5173e-c141-4f76-966a-59e8bce459a5/og_mf_rebel_riders_ng_0006_16x9.jpg?w=1200

What do you know? That seat actually looks more uncomfortable than the one on the BMW CE 02.   :o
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: axman88 on September 04, 2021, 07:11:20 pm
What do you know? That seat actually looks more uncomfortable than the one on the BMW CE 02.   :o
That Vespa custom was a one off.  Another useful bike, from a plant based source, but that is produced in numbers that will likely dwarf the electric BMW's future production, is the Chukudu, of the Congo:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M4E8K1mh7js

Not motor powered, and very low emissions! 
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: AzCal Retred on September 05, 2021, 06:07:57 am
Now THAT's some serious HOME GROWN! :o

Add a hub motor and you'd be set! Hipsters will be beating a path to import them, along with those UN hand cranked laptops.

https://www.theverge.com/2018/4/16/17233946/olpcs-100-laptop-education-where-is-it-now
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: derottone on September 05, 2021, 07:28:29 pm
Now THAT's some serious HOME GROWN! :o

Add a hub motor and you'd be set! Hipsters will be beating a path to import them, along with those UN hand cranked laptops.

https://www.theverge.com/2018/4/16/17233946/olpcs-100-laptop-education-where-is-it-now

Wow, that computer, awesome. When will they put a crank to mobile phones.
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: AzCal Retred on September 05, 2021, 07:48:39 pm
After a recent trip to the local Senior Center, I can see there's PLENTY of cranks on mobile phones already!  ;D
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: GlennF on September 06, 2021, 12:34:57 am
First it was Kudlow whinging about having to drink "plant based beer", then I read an advert last night claiming they were selling "plant based bread".  At least your photo showed a fellow able to creatively re-task old scooter parts, that indicates a level of intellect far above what I'm seeing from the Alt-right media and ads in general.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/apr/26/trump-larry-kudlow-biden-plant-based-beer


Well proper beer is made from coal by products not hops and stuff, we all know that.
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: derottone on September 12, 2021, 05:16:01 pm
https://www.cartoq.com/in-2-years-india-will-be-world-leader-in-electric-vehicles-transport-minister-nitin-gadkari/amp/

Anything is possible in India, i totally believe it.
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: Richard230 on September 22, 2021, 02:37:47 pm
Are you ready for the Pocket Rocket? Just don't expect to go very far or very fast on your Rocket.
https://thepack.news/pocket-rocket-from-sol-motors-is-now-ready-for-pre-orders/
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: AzCal Retred on September 22, 2021, 04:54:00 pm
March 6, 2021 Review:
https://gomotoriders.com/electric-motorcycle-pocket-rocket-by-sol-motors/
The Pocket Rocket also comes with some amazing specifications. As there are two models of this electric motorcycle, one is the standard model while the other is a go-faster model called Pocket Rocket S.
The Pocket Rocket belongs in the city commuter vehicle category as it reaches a speed of 31-50 mph, while the top speed of the Pocket Rocket S is 50-80 km/h which puts it in between a city vehicle and a motorcycle capable of highway speeds.
The Pocket Rocket S comes with a 6 kW (8 hp) motor, while the lower speed model has a 4 kW (5.4 hp) model. Both of the models have a 150 Nm (111 ft-lbs) of torque. Moreover, both models feature large street tires, hydraulic disc brakes which are lightweight, and LED lighting into the main frame tube. of the models can be connected with an Android and iOS app. Hence, the rider can use their phone as an instrument display. The Pocket Rocket models aren’t available yet but its price is estimated to be around €5,200 and €6,500.
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: axman88 on September 22, 2021, 04:57:41 pm
Are you ready for the Pocket Rocket? Just don't expect to go very far or very fast on your Rocket.
https://thepack.news/pocket-rocket-from-sol-motors-is-now-ready-for-pre-orders/
Finally something has come along to compete with the styling of the CAKE machines!
https://ridecake.com/en/

And priced competitively also, at just under $7000 with today's exchange rates, vs $7500 for the Cake Ossa Lite.  The Ossa does have the desirable mid motor configuration though.

I still favor the $5000, Sondors Metacycle.   Despite the fact that they have announced delivery delays, I think it is the superior vehicle, with superior specs.
https://www.rideapart.com/news/533903/sondors-metacycle-delay-q4-2021/
https://electrek.co/2021/08/22/5000-sondors-metacycle-electric-motorcycle-in-durability-testing-ahead-of-deliveries/

Sondors has had a proven track record of delivering value priced E-bikes from their crowd funded origins.

And then, there is the styling.  On the Sondors, I wouldn't feel quite so much like I need to be wearing a costume.  Inspector Gadget, perhaps?
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: Nitrowing on September 23, 2021, 06:05:03 pm
Ugly. Ugly. Ugly.
Whilst 111ft/lbs of torque would be great fun, staring at any of these bikes would break my heart.
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: Richard230 on September 23, 2021, 08:45:39 pm
Well, it does look more like a mobile pipe bomb than a rocket.  ;)
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: derottone on September 23, 2021, 09:35:51 pm
The Sondors doesn't look all that bad. I wouldn't go for a bike with a hub motor however ever, although it might be ok on a nice new tarmac road without potholes. Sure on such perfect roads maybe suspension may not be needed at all.
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: AzCal Retred on September 24, 2021, 12:15:58 am
I'm thinking at 35 - 45 MPH the hub motors unsprung weight isn't a real big issue. The elimination of extra moving bits is a plus for 95% of the potential users.

For my money, a 3 or 4 wheel, preferably somewhat weather enclosed transport pod would be more useful. And then there's this:
https://www.swincar.net/details-swincar+tilting+4-wheel-drive+spider+car+makes+light+work+of+bizarre+terrain-44.html
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: derottone on September 24, 2021, 07:24:13 am
I'm thinking at 35 - 45 MPH the hub motors unsprung weight isn't a real big issue. The elimination of extra moving bits is a plus for 95% of the potential users.

For my money, a 3 or 4 wheel, preferably somewhat weather enclosed transport pod would be more useful. And then there's this:
https://www.swincar.net/details-swincar+tilting+4-wheel-drive+spider+car+makes+light+work+of+bizarre+terrain-44.html

It's probably not an issue when it comes to riding dynamics, if you hit a pothole though even at 45mph it's going to be hard on the spokes in the wheel and the wheel bearing. But than maybe the thing is not supposed to last very long anyway.

From a manufacturer perspective the best bike might be that one that goes to the yard directly from the factory and the customer is happy about it and purchases the next one anyway.
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: AzCal Retred on September 24, 2021, 08:05:43 pm
So were the rigid "hardtails" of the 30's & 40's cursed with constantly collapsing wheels? I think a firm jolt up the spine a time or two made for a much more observant rider.
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: derottone on September 24, 2021, 09:33:23 pm
So were the rigid "hardtails" of the 30's & 40's cursed with constantly collapsing wheels? I think a firm jolt up the spine a time or two made for a much more observant rider.

Haven't been around, so can't say for sure, however if they had wheels similar to my GT than you would definitely need to replace a spoke or two most probably after every ride.

The riding ergonomics might have been an interesting feature though.
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: Richard230 on September 24, 2021, 10:38:32 pm
So were the rigid "hardtails" of the 30's & 40's cursed with constantly collapsing wheels? I think a firm jolt up the spine a time or two made for a much more observant rider.

One of the bikes that I owned a long time ago was a 1958 Allstate 125. It had a hardtail rear end and was no fun to ride compared with motorcycles with rear suspensions that went up and down when riding over road potholes.   ;)
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: AzCal Retred on September 25, 2021, 04:00:31 am
https://www.v-twinforum.com/threads/hard-tail-bikes-are-they-safe.185960/
From "Norster":
I've seen the dance of the rear wheel of shock equipped bikes in turns and rough roads.
I've also seen the sure footed rigid frame hardtails go thru with little or no loss of traction by comparison.
The rider determines safety or casualty/IMWIO

Riding a hardtail is like riding a horse.
->You raise up on the stirrups...
->You raise up on the pegs...
Let your legs absorb the shock and maintain control.
(yes, I have ridden horses. IMHO they need a "kill switch" more than bikes do)

All it takes is someone awake & aware riding.

Look at the seat & footpegs/controls.
Is the rider gonna go thru bumps like s/he expects smooth road?
or
Is the rider able to respond to rough road and even gravel?

My choppers had the best seats I could find and even they were spring mounted.
But I always had mid mount footpegs for the rough stuff.


I'm sure hardtail riders didn't change spokes daily. These machines were their daily transport and were as durable as necessary. Trials riders persevered on hardtails for years after road bikes adopted rear suspension. They are obviously a rougher ride, but appropriate rear tire pressures and enlightened self interest will minimize damage. Pounding a machine hard enough to snap spokes would be hard on the rider as well. Spoked wheels also are inherently good at absorbing shock loads when properly tensioned. Breaking a few spokes on a particular machine doesn't correlate to generalizing on an entire category of motorcycles that persisted for many years.
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: derottone on September 25, 2021, 10:15:27 am
The greentards should definitely get one.
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: AzCal Retred on September 25, 2021, 06:47:05 pm
Der Ottonen B is back!! ;D
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: axman88 on September 25, 2021, 08:03:47 pm
It's probably not an issue when it comes to riding dynamics, if you hit a pothole though even at 45mph it's going to be hard on the spokes in the wheel and the wheel bearing.
I would observe that although a hub motor is certainly likely to be heavier than any alternate drive scheme, it does eliminate the mass of the sprocket, its mounting, and 1/2 the mass of the chain from the unsprung rear axle.  For a drive shaft bike, the rear gearing and 1/2 the weight of the drive shaft would be eliminated.  I think it's probably that belt drives win the least rear axle mass contest.

As AzCal Rtd pointed out, using a hub motor reduces overall weight of the vehicle by eliminating duplication of a hub structure in the separate motor.

From my perspective, the biggest negative of the hub motor is the fact that the motor can't benefit from torque multiplication in the drive train.  Torque is limited by diameter, magnet strength and current limits.  There are available hub motors with internal planetary gear systems that allow the motor's rotor to spin much faster than the wheel, and I suspect that the motors on these E-motos are constructed in that way.  When they develop multiple ratio, internally geared hub motors, I think we'll see more manufacturers move in the direction of hub motors.
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: AzCal Retred on September 25, 2021, 09:45:46 pm
So when is the NuVinci Hub Motor coming out? They already have the first half of your design package in production. I've ridden on, it's pretty slick.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NuVinci_Continuously_Variable_Transmission
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: AzCal Retred on September 26, 2021, 02:16:14 am
NuVinci on a Raleigh e-bike:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UVoTj3tfmWA
This motor drives the crankset, like you were pedaling, so an easy application, like the next:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YYiXwhjlSMc

Obviously good for low power application, can't say how it would hold up at 3-5 HP without a major rework. Still a cool idea.
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: axman88 on September 26, 2021, 04:38:58 am
So when is the NuVinci Hub Motor coming out? They already have the first half of your design package in production.
That's interesting, I hadn't seen that design.  It's pretty amazing how much innovation is going on in the world of bicycles, let alone E-bicycles.

With respect to the NuVinci technology being used in a hub motor, I see a few issues.  As you noted, it's going to difficult to get E-Moto torque levels through what is essentially a friction drive.   

Second, as we can see in these pictures, the spherical balls eat up a lot more internal volume than a planetary gear cage.  Here the planet gears look like nylon.  If they were steel, they could be 1/3 as thick.
https://ebikes.ca/pub/media/wysiwyg/ezeestator.jpg

The NuVinci balls need to be substantial to handle the surface loads.
https://i1.wp.com/www.electricbike.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/BeltIGH19.png?w=696&ssl=1

Lastly, again because it's a friction drive, the efficiency is quite a bit less than a gears.  This test showed overall friction loss of 3% for a single speed bicycle chain drive (97% efficient).  With a internal geared (Rohloff) hub that went up to 5.5% average for all gears.  The NuVinci continuously variable lost an average of 16.5% over it's range of ratios.   https://www.cyclingabout.com/speed-difference-testing-gearbox-systems/

Efficiency wasn't so important when internal combustion engines and cheap gas was providing the power, but becomes a bigger factor with limited storage capacity for electrical energy, and definitely when a human is providing the power.

My impression is that the electric motors have such a wide torque band, that in hub form they don't require a lot of ratios to do the job, and don't require continuously variable transmissions at all.  The problem a non geared hub motor has, is that on a steep hill it's being asked to delivery peak torque at lowest rpm and something gets burned up, or at minimum, efficiency plummets.  Maybe all somebody needs to do is create an internal planetary gearing system that has a high ratio planetary, that can also be bypassed for direct drive at high speed, and the controller shifts based on speed and/or power demand?   Seems so obvious, I'll bet it's already out there.

Back to the idea of hub weight creating issues with their unsprung weight, this graphic shows a range of bicycle wheel hub motors.  We can see a weight range from 2.3 to 8.5 kg, quite a variation.
https://ebikes.ca/pub/media/wysiwyg/2020MotorSpread.jpg
I don't know about E-moto hub motors, but wonder if graphing power vs. weight for the bicycle hub motor will result in a fairly consistent factor that could be extrapolated.

It occurred to me that adding a rear hub motor, battery pack and controller, to a pedal moped, would result in a "hybrid motorcycle" that possibly retains eligibility as a non-licensed "low power E-bike".
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: AzCal Retred on September 26, 2021, 06:59:20 pm
Axman88 - great analysis on the Nuvinci!

Here's how hub motors used to be...check out the starting drill.
Megola - Rotary Engined Motorcycle!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZghXM9xqCPA

Info from the UK...
https://www.bikesure.co.uk/bikesureblog/2016/05/electric-scooters-and-the-law.html

...and for even more fun, a hybrid scooter conversion kit...!?!
Petrol and Electric Hybrid Scooter
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1h4TPIUnYCc

A search for "hybrid scooter conversion kit" brings up a lot of hits. Way more than I would have thought. 4 H8 car batteries and a wounded scooter and you'd be on your way to a fun project.
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: derottone on September 26, 2021, 07:49:52 pm

My impression is that the electric motors have such a wide torque band, that in hub form they don't require a lot of ratios to do the job, and don't require continuously variable transmissions at all.  The problem a non geared hub motor has, is that on a steep hill it's being asked to delivery peak torque at lowest rpm and something gets burned up, or at minimum, efficiency plummets.  Maybe all somebody needs to do is create an internal planetary gearing system that has a high ratio planetary, that can also be bypassed for direct drive at high speed, and the controller shifts based on speed and/or power demand?   Seems so obvious, I'll bet it's already out there.


They may need infact just one gear ratio. The AC motors used in vehicles those days are controlled by an inverter that can deliver most any frequency and could be called the "gearbox" or "cvt" of an electric motor. When designing an electric vehicle what you would typically look at is the torque required for a good startability and so that the vehicle is capable of climbing a certain degree of slopes. That would determine your gear ratio that you choose for your motor. The other thing you want to decide upon would be the power in kilowatts, which depends on how fast you wish to go. Once you have selected a gear ratio that permits enough torque for an decent acceleration the inverter will take care of the rest and make the motor spin as fast as necessary sacrificing some torque with rising rpms.

It's all fantastic if there was no such thing as a battery. Although for an electric moped enthusiast the limitations may not be an issue at all. I would still shy away from an hub motor though unless the vehicle was designed for really slow speeds.
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: AzCal Retred on September 26, 2021, 09:36:10 pm
"Pure" AC motors draw current inversely (sort of) proportional to the speed. At design RPM they produce enough "CEMF" to limit current in the windings (& inductively coupled rotor) to very low values, roughly analogous to a transformer in a no-load condition. As motor speed slows under load, CEMF decreases, winding currents (& rotor currents) increase, magnetic flux increases, speed increases a bit until the "balance point" RPM for that load on that motor is reached, the "slip frequency" for that load. At start up speeds CEMF is almost zero, so winding & rotor current is quite high, 15x to 30x the design FLA current, depending on winding design efficiency. Higher efficiency (low impedance) motors tend to have higher locked rotor currents. That's why AC motor starting protection looks both at current and time, to prevent motor overheating & damage.

The hub motors normally are permanent magnet motors to eliminate an extra set of brushes, so the attraction/repulsion forces possible depend on available Henrys of flux, rotor/stator spacing, magnetic field proximity, winding wire size & applied voltage, etc., etc.. Starting torque is limited by many design factors. The winding currents are controlled by the electronics "package", so there is some real voodoo going on as relates to motor speed & load control. Some of these hub motors even have regenerative braking/charging features. The package does everything, from protecting the motor windings to limiting max RPM. The fuses supplying them are just to limit damage in event of an internal fault.

Using an ordinary "pure" AC 3-phase motor on a VFD, the rule of thumb is don't exceed 150% of rated rpm. The drive contains various protection curves, and some drives also utilize thermistors embedded in the motor windings for overload overheating feedback. Vehicle drive motors are a pretty specialized design, with the construction blurring the AC/DC motor separation.

I'm with you on the probable need for a transmission, as that keeps you out of the extreme ends of the operating spectrum. We also agree on the limitations of batteries, as weight and limited energy storage capacity are still a problem. And as you point out, slow speeds are less demanding of the system and minimize drag forces, similar to the early days bi-plane flight envelop dictated by the draggy wing cross bracing. At speeds up to about 60 MPH, drag was manageable. For the racing bi-planes of the '30's & 40's, it took a truly huge engine to pull them along at 200+ MPH.
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: derottone on September 26, 2021, 09:49:47 pm
 :)...very nice. There is still too much confusion though regarding those motors, some call them AC motors, others DC motors electronically commutated. We agree it's brushless motors that use permanent magnets.
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: Richard230 on September 26, 2021, 10:48:19 pm
I only know of one "mass produced" electric motorcycle with a transmission. That was the Brammo Empulse that was marketed between 2012 and 2018, when it was sold to Victory Motors, who produced a slightly updated version of the bike for about 2 years before Polaris shut down the Victory brand and the Victory Empulse TT went down the drain, too. That bike was water-cooled and used a 6-speed transmission sourced from a small company in Italy. To my knowledge no other electric motorcycle currently on the market uses a multi-speed transmission. All of the other brands, like Zero and H-D, use direct drive systems, brushless A/C motors, which appears to be the current standard in the industry, which seems to be sufficient to get them down the road. I believe that even all of the electric automobiles on the market also use direct drive power systems, even Tesla. I think Tesla once tried out a 2-speed transmission but that didn't work out for them and they went back to direct-drive.
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: AzCal Retred on September 27, 2021, 12:26:20 am
Direct drive eliminates a lot of "excess" components. It also largely removes the "meat puppet" factor, so engineering can just do what's necessary. For flattish ground, modest acceleration and moderate top speeds it works really well. Brammo was basically mimicking an IC engine, which is a LOT more user interactive and fun. Too bad they got shut down.
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: Richard230 on September 27, 2021, 01:52:20 am
Direct drive eliminates a lot of "excess" components. It also largely removes the "meat puppet" factor, so engineering can just do what's necessary. For flattish ground, modest acceleration and moderate top speeds it works really well. Brammo was basically mimicking an IC engine, which is a LOT more user interactive and fun. Too bad they got shut down.

I have always been a little ticked-off by Brammo. In 2010 they introduced their prototype Empulse with direct-drive. I was one of over 1000 people who put their names on the pre-order list for the bike. Then Brammo took the bike off of the market before it was ever built because the company founder, Craig, wanted to insert a clutch and transmission into the drive train.

After that announcement was made, I saw him at the Sears Point Raceway where they were racing the bike against 600cc ICE motorcycles. I can't recall if that was the direct-drive version or the one with the transmission that was being raced that day. But I had a discussion with Craig telling him that I didn't think much of his decision to cancel the direct drive and go with the 6-speed version.  I thought that having less complexity on a new tech platform was a safer alternative. It would allow them to make sales right away and generate some cash while they worked the kinks out of the transmission version that could have been introduced later. However, he was adamant that motorcycle enthusiasts wanted the fun of shifting and clutching. I responded that I wasn't one of those and just wanted to own and ride an electric freeway-legal motorcycle.

Obviously, I didn't convince him of my way of thinking and it took two years for the new version to be introduced. By then I had bought a 2012 Zero ZF9 and was very happy with its direct-drive and lack of the shifting experience. It had plenty of power, could go 100 miles on a charge and was good for 80 mph up a 6% freeway grade.  Attached are four photos of the direct-drive Brammo Empulse prototype that I took at on February 10, 2011 at Scuderia West (now SF's RE dealer) when it was displayed there one weekend.
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: GlennF on September 28, 2021, 12:17:43 am
A truly efficient and simple AC motor would need three phase power.

Just saying :D
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: AzCal Retred on September 28, 2021, 01:13:12 am
Why stop at 3-phase?

https://www.quora.com/What-are-differences-between-a-3-phase-motor-and-motors-4-5-6-n-phase-if-they-exist

https://www.quora.com/How-does-a-4-pole-3-phase-motors-windings-look-like
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: Richard230 on September 28, 2021, 02:43:17 pm
Here is something that you can do with your e-bike. Turn it into a tie-dyed piece of art:  https://thepack.news/newsflash-ftn-motions-streetdog-collab-with-wellington-airport/
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: AzCal Retred on September 28, 2021, 03:55:26 pm
With some painted disc wheel covers you could get that awesome spiral effect as you motored about at the "Doobie Brothers" college...
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: axman88 on September 28, 2021, 04:26:10 pm
A truly efficient and simple AC motor would need three phase power.
The brushless motors that are used for hub motors are running on chopped up, PWM DC, not true AC.  Some controllers will run at higher frequency to create a waveform that approximates AC, which gives quieter running and more efficiency, but the run of the mill controller just sends subsequent square pulses to the various phases.

There's some information on how this works here:  https://www.integrasources.com/blog/bldc-motor-controller-design-principles/

One could build a controller that had more phases, but I don't see much advantage.  The motors are already constructed with lots of poles which gives more power pulses per rotation.   I count something like 48 on the rather basic, gearless hub motor shown in this picture, split between the 3 phases:  https://www.ebay.com/itm/Voilamart-Electric-Bicycle-E-Bike-26-Front-Rear-Wheel-Motor-Conversion-Kit/322247604604

In this design, the stator is fixed to the axle, while the magnets ( not shown in the picture) are attached to the rotating rim of the motor.
I think it's easy to see why this basic design of hub motor has a hard time developing power at low rpms.

The type with internal gears can spin a lot faster at a given wheel rpm, producing the same power with much fewer poles and in a package with reduced diameter and weight.   http://volto.co.nz/wpvolto/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/motor300w-electric-bikes.png

I imagine that the motors used on the Sol and Sondors machines both use internal gearing, but I haven't seen details of these.
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: AzCal Retred on September 29, 2021, 06:19:01 pm
New Info from Land Electric Motorcycles -

FROM THE LAND CEO: LAND has secured funding to start production in the USA. I can not express how excited our team is to enter this next phase – it has been three years since we started this journey. This funding will allow us to begin production in our existing facility and scale up the company. To everyone who holds a pre-order, thank you for the support. Without you, we would not be here.
INVESTORS, if you have been following our progress and want to explore investment opportunities with LAND, please reach out to me at scott@land.email. 


https://landenergy.io/products/district-first-edition?utm_source=Klaviyo&utm_medium=campaign-email&utm_campaign=LAND_NL_V4%20%28UTUB5A%29&_kx=WXjKgl-3A3hhbsdbCFSwjwku_pWzQq_0Jn7CyukOhMYNXo-3KN2BB5r7Mpsx9Qii.RFzrM7

Specs:
https://landenergy.io/pages/vehicles?utm_source=Klaviyo&utm_medium=campaign-email&utm_campaign=LAND_NL_V4%20%28UTUB5A%29&_kx=WXjKgl-3A3hhbsdbCFSwjwku_pWzQq_0Jn7CyukOhMYNXo-3KN2BB5r7Mpsx9Qii.RFzrM7
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: Nitrowing on September 29, 2021, 10:10:36 pm
Ugly  :(
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: axman88 on September 30, 2021, 04:06:55 am
Ugly  :(
I'm sensing a general theme here.....

Lets try one that's an outlier, something styled quite a bit different, but still electric.

What do we think of the Juicer electric bikes?   http://www.juicer.bike/

Still ugly?
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: derottone on September 30, 2021, 11:22:13 am
Hmm, i think my consumption of ear plugs on an electric bike would be about as high as on an Enfield Diesel.  ;D
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: Richard230 on September 30, 2021, 02:07:05 pm
I'm sensing a general theme here.....

Lets try one that's an outlier, something styled quite a bit different, but still electric.

What do we think of the Juicer electric bikes?   http://www.juicer.bike/

Still ugly?

I give Juicer credit for doing something unique in the way of a retro-design motorbike. At least it doesn't look like a rolling pod. But that system of chains and sprockets looks kind of sketchy with their very small counter-shaft sprocket and exposed chain. It will be interesting to see how well their bikes sell and how long they stay in business.
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: Nitrowing on September 30, 2021, 02:52:20 pm
The Juicer isn't ugly. A nice hipster style.
Most e-bikes simply have no effort put in to looking appealing  ::)
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: axman88 on September 30, 2021, 07:19:38 pm
I give Juicer credit for doing something unique in the way of a retro-design motorbike. At least it doesn't look like a rolling pod. But that system of chains and sprockets looks kind of sketchy with their very small counter-shaft sprocket and exposed chain. It will be interesting to see how well their bikes sell and how long they stay in business.
I read an interview with David Twomey, the creative mind behind Juicer bikes, and got the impression that he's more of an artist than an engineer.  The bikes are essentially hand made, by him, and in very limited numbers.  Taking the thread in this direction was a bit of a red herring.  I was just playfully trying to see if I could get our friend Nitrowing to admit he liked the looks of any electric bike.

As far as the business model of Juicer, ... that's a done deal.  2020 was hard on a lot of businesses.
http://www.juicer.bike/method.html#contact

Hopefully Mr. Twomey has moved on to a position where he can contribute his considerable artistic talent to some product that will achieve higher market penetration.

Meanwhile, the Kosynier is still in "pay now, get later" mode.  https://kosynier.eu/vintage-electric-bike-kosynier-delux/

I prefer the Juicer.  Batteries stacked in a way that they resemble cylinders seems a lot less pretentious than gluing on a fake plastic engine.   When I was around 8 years old, I received a present of a toy engine that mounted on the frame of my bike.  It had a lever that you would yank to spin an internal mechanism that made Vroom Vroom noises, and that was all it did.  I thanked my dad when he put it on my bike, but I remember feeling a bit embarrassed by the thing.
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: Nitrowing on September 30, 2021, 09:39:57 pm
Taking the thread in this direction was a bit of a red herring.  I was just playfully trying to see if I could get our friend Nitrowing to admit he liked the looks of any electric bike.
Yeah, I know  ;D
There's been very few bikes I've admired in the last 20 years... the Vultus and RC390 are the only 2 I've actually seriously considered buying.
Electric bike design is even more atrocious than currently marketed ICE bikes, they're doing it on purpose and that's unforgivable  >:(
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: Richard230 on September 30, 2021, 10:49:20 pm
Personally, I never thought much about looks of the Brammo Enertia that was trying to be sold at Best Buy stores. As it was more of a motorcycle than a bicycle, it didn't work out all that well for them - especially when the DMV found out about their plans.  ::)
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: Richard230 on October 04, 2021, 02:08:22 pm
Here is the latest medium-size electric motorcycle model announcement from China. It includes the usual 45-second teaser video which tells you nothing about the motorcycle other than pretty young women like to ride the bike fast at night.  ::) However, some specifications are included in the article that indicates it has a top speed of 62 mph, but no claimed range is mentioned.
https://thepack.news/ukko-s-from-tromox-guarantees-more-performance-and-fun/
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: AzCal Retred on October 04, 2021, 03:39:03 pm
The "Chinese/Taiwanese girl" helmet off/hair flip at the end of your video was a hoot.

A nice "tour" of current electric motorcycles (see what I did there... :o) from vids associated with your link.

10 MOST INNOVATIVE ELECTRIC MOTORCYCLES COMING IN 2021-2023
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RSjSUEBamlU

And for us older folks that like to stay dry - check out the "Artega Karo" at minute 12 or so.
Top 10 Mini EVs Available Now - Mini Electric Cars on a Budget
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MtbkKaDr6Y0


Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: Nitrowing on October 04, 2021, 08:00:24 pm
The ukko isn't as hideous as most but I can't see Akira riding it!  ;D
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: Richard230 on October 19, 2021, 02:10:45 pm
Just what the world needs, a 62-mph stand-up electric scooter.  ::)  https://thepack.news/skyer-motors-technologies-presents-its-ultra-fast-electric-scooter/
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: derottone on October 25, 2021, 02:49:42 pm
https://youtu.be/OkeiEH1BA8M

...or you could get a Jetson One. Minor issue though is that unless you own a small country you may be able to ride it in your garden only.
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: AzCal Retred on October 25, 2021, 05:29:34 pm
Jetson 1 - just the thing for the country estate owner with a 5 mile x 5 mile garden, a full charge gets you one 20 minute, 60 MPH lap....maybe. But you could be the coolest kid on the block, eh?

https://www.jetsonaero.com/
Flight time (85kg/187lbs pilot weight) - 20 minutes
Top level flight speed - software limited to 102km/h (63mph)
A complete vehicle is 92 000 USD and is delivered to you as a partially (50%) assembled kit for home completion. It contains everything you need, from the aluminium space frame to motor controllers, propellers and motors. You will also receive detailed build instructions.
If you want to have your own Jetson ONE, please contact us for purchase. 22 000 USD deposit to reserve a build slot. We plan to have twelve build slots for autumn 2022, with production starting during the summer of 2022.
Please contact Peter Ternström at peter@jetsonaero.com to order, or for questions.
Delivery 2022 - The entire 2022 production is sold out


Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: derottone on October 25, 2021, 06:17:40 pm
Or you could build an mono seater helicopter for about half the money that doesn't rely on an computer to keep that thing stable in the air which may suffer a sudden bluescreen, power it with an ICE to get that power and range where it ought to be. For the other half of the money you probably could get it to fly legally as well.  ::)
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: AzCal Retred on October 25, 2021, 08:11:12 pm
Rather the whole point of the Jetson1 was to give the feckless a way to get airborne. Piloting an actual manually controlled aircraft is a whole 'nother thing that joyriding in an automated skycycle. If you want to get airborne rapidly & cheaply & survive, get a Cosmos Trike or other flex-wing aircraft. Starting off in a rotary wing isn't a recipe for success. To assume that the Jetson1 folks haven't built in redundancy means you didn't read the literature on their site. You don't sell $100K toys to the wealthy without covering your litigious-prone ass.
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: derottone on October 25, 2021, 08:18:35 pm
Rather the whole point of the Jetson1 was to give the feckless a way to get airborne. Piloting an actual manually controlled aircraft is a whole 'nother thing that joyriding in an automated skycycle. If you want to get airborne rapidly & cheaply & survive, get a Cosmos Trike or other flex-wing aircraft. Starting off in a rotary wing isn't a recipe for success. To assume that the Jetson1 folks haven't built in redundancy means you didn't read the literature on their site. You don't sell $100K toys to the wealthy without covering your litigious-prone ass.

Well, a rocket parachute ejection system is probably on board, won´t do much good unless you are 200-300ft. above ground. Anyway, nice effort, interesting to see.
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: AzCal Retred on October 26, 2021, 01:06:21 am
At low altitudes the 'chute covers the wreckage & sops up blood.... :o
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: GlennF on October 26, 2021, 06:00:41 am
For the other half of the money you probably could get it to fly legally as well.  ::)

The 102 kmh (55 knot) IAS exactly matches the US 14 CFR Part 103 regs - so am pretty certain it has been designed to comply with part 103 regulations in the US which means:
No licence or registration required to legally fly it in the US subject to the following restrictions:


So basically legal to use for recreation in remote areas during daytime.
Definitely not legal to do night time Pizza delivery in Manhattan with it.

Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: Richard230 on October 26, 2021, 02:07:37 pm
The 102 kmh (55 knot) IAS exactly matches the US 14 CFR Part 103 regs - so am pretty certain it has been designed to comply with part 103 regulations in the US which means:
No licence or registration required to legally fly it in the US subject to the following restrictions:

  • cannot be flown except between the hours of sunrise and sunset.
  • may be operated during the twilight periods 30 minutes before official sunrise and 30 minutes after official sunset if the vehicle has an operating anti-collision light visible for at least 3 statute miles
  • flight can only take place in uncontrolled airspace
  • cannot be flown over any congested area of a city, town, or settlement, or over any open air assembly of persons

So basically legal to use for recreation in remote areas during daytime.
Definitely not legal to do night time Pizza delivery in Manhattan with it.

Darn! There goes my plan for fast pizza delivery in San Francisco.  ::)
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: derottone on October 26, 2021, 06:09:47 pm
Rather the whole point of the Jetson1 was to give the feckless a way to get airborne. Piloting an actual manually controlled aircraft is a whole 'nother thing that joyriding in an automated skycycle. If you want to get airborne rapidly & cheaply & survive, get a Cosmos Trike or other flex-wing aircraft. Starting off in a rotary wing isn't a recipe for success. To assume that the Jetson1 folks haven't built in redundancy means you didn't read the literature on their site. You don't sell $100K toys to the wealthy without covering your litigious-prone ass.

I don´t know, there are man that got it and there are man that don´t i guess.  ::)

..how about an gyrocopter.

https://youtu.be/EpwIwUb5j3Q

..or this.

https://youtu.be/iN0jFN8NS3Y

well I suppose it´s NOT the FUTURE.  ::)  ...that´s decided by Greta and Dr. Evil.  ;D

I would concider both those concepts safer with a higher degree of free movement than tha JETSON 1, however maybe many people may feel safe those days about the fact that a computer is on board as well as the rocket launched parachute.  ::)
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: axman88 on October 26, 2021, 07:51:33 pm
An interesting vehicle that is limited to being earthbound, and that has a price that isn't out of orbit for an average Joe, is the Kollter ES1-S (Street) and ES1-X (Enduro).

Already available in the US from Naticycle, and priced just under $6K, with a 12kW, centrally mounted motor and a 72V, 25.6 Ah battery, the ES1 is capable of an 80 mile range and speeds up to about 60mph.  Base weight is 220 lb.  Adding a 2nd, 32 Ah battery allows a higher ~72mph top speed and longer range.

75% charge can be achieved with the 15amp charger in 2 hours.  100% will take up to 5 hours.   I'm pulling the numbers in this post from all three links below, and they don't agree, so these are a bit of mish-mosh.

https://electrek.co/2021/10/26/north-americas-most-affordable-70-mph-electric-motorcycle-is-already-here-and-no-one-noticed/
http://www.kollter.com/es1.html
https://naticycle.com/ols/products/kollter-es1-s-5kw-2x72v32-batteries1

If I was a NEW motorcycle buyer, and given my current, "commute to work" usage pattern, a machine like this could be a real contender.  My round trip daily ride is under 15 miles, at speeds under 50mph.  This bike could handle that, easily.  Perhaps the best value in an IC engine machine to do the same job would be something like this Genuine Buddy 170i scooter, that I can buy here direct from their Chicago based importer for around $3300.  http://www.genuinescooters.com/buddy170i.html

I'll calculate the break-even mileage, assuming smooth running, and no major repairs required for either machine.  I'll assume gas prices at $4/gallon.  I paid more than that filling my Honda today.   I suspect gas prices will be considerably higher before the break even period is finished, but lets keep the calculation simple.  Let's assume that licensing, taxes, and registration is the same for both machines.

The Kollter will go about 700 recharge cycles before the battery is beyond hope.  I'll need to charge twice every three weeks or so, lets say 40 times per year.  That calculates to a 17.5 year life, which I'm skeptical of, but 8 years should be attainable with a little luck.  That's 8 years of 25Ah * 72V recharges, 1.8 kW per charge.  I think I'm paying about 13 cents per kwh and I'll say the charger is 85% efficient.  That's 27.5 cents per recharge, on which I can go about 60 miles.  The Kolter will cost me  2.2 cents per mile to operate.

The Buddy will get me 90 miles per $4/gallon of gas.  That's 4.4 cents per mile.  Scooters are cheap to ride.  Oil changes are costing me $30 every 2000 miles, which brings me to 5.9 cents / mile to operate the Buddy.

With the cost of the Kollter being $2700 more than the Buddy, I'll need to ride a lot of miles before I've paid that difference off, just about 73,000 miles, to be exact.

This differential will continue to move in favor of the electric vehicles over the next few years.  According to articles I've read, electric vehicle makers are predicting prices will be at parity within the next 5 to 10 years.  When purchase prices equalize, the economics of ownership, will go increasingly in favor of the electrics.
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: derottone on October 26, 2021, 08:04:55 pm
This differential will continue to move in favor of the electric vehicles over the next few years.  According to articles I've read, electric vehicle makers are predicting prices will be at parity within the next 5 to 10 years.  When purchase prices equalize, the economics of ownership, will go increasingly in favor of the electrics.

Well, Bill schmuck Gates predicted a deadly virus about 5 years ago, in the end they had to release something in Wuahan to make him feel good about himself. I'm predicting that the EV's will engage some reverse gears as fast as we've not seen before.
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: AzCal Retred on October 26, 2021, 10:31:13 pm
@ 274: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hFMPifnRTRU

@ #276....WTF?
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: Richard230 on October 26, 2021, 10:36:58 pm
Don't forget the cost of insurance. Liability insurance could be expensive for a new flying machine with no track record that doesn't need to have a professional pilot flying it.  :o
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: GlennF on October 26, 2021, 11:56:37 pm
Don't forget the cost of insurance. Liability insurance could be expensive for a new flying machine with no track record that doesn't need to have a professional pilot flying it.  :o

Part 103 ultralights (most of which are trikes) are all officially homebuilt. The reason this thing comes as a kit. Probably also the reason for the very limited range, they need to stay under the 103 weight limit.

It will likely have the same insurance issues as anything else made from a kit at home and flown without a licence in non controlled airspace under Part 103.

Note that this 103 thing is a peculiarly US exemption.   There is no way you get to fly something like this in Australia with out an engineering certificate,  experimental registration and some form of pilots licence.  I expect the UK and most other jurisdictions will be the same. The US is rather unusual in this regard.

Not a particularly practical vehicle more of a toy, though racing them might be a hoot.
 
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: AzCal Retred on October 27, 2021, 07:27:43 pm
The pilot weight is limited to about 180 pounds, so running a 100 pound pilot gives you the possibility of either a faster bike or another 60-80 pounds of batteries for more range, fewer "pit stops", assuming the racing takeoff weights are normalized... :o
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: derottone on October 28, 2021, 06:31:11 pm
https://www.gizmodo.com.au/2020/07/this-blowjob-machine-designed-for-teslas-on-autopilot-is-a-terrible-idea-but-probably-not-why-you-think/

...this is something they may appreciate in sweden. Huge market potential.  ;)
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: AzCal Retred on November 13, 2021, 05:33:31 pm
Another take on battery transport systems:
BBC: How high-speed electric vehicle racing is advancing tech
https://www.bbc.com/news/business-59119103
Ms Gibson fully supports the development of new EV racing vehicles and the involvement of famous teams and drivers to spur electric racing on. "It is the future," she says. She adds that while some petrol-heads will always grumble about the lack of exhaust noise from electric vehicles, the visual spectacle remains thrilling.
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: derottone on November 13, 2021, 06:39:07 pm
Another take on battery transport systems:
BBC: How high-speed electric vehicle racing is advancing tech
https://www.bbc.com/news/business-59119103
Ms Gibson fully supports the development of new EV racing vehicles and the involvement of famous teams and drivers to spur electric racing on. "It is the future," she says. She adds that while some petrol-heads will always grumble about the lack of exhaust noise from electric vehicles, the visual spectacle remains thrilling.

I agree with her, and how about just going from A to B? I suppose that won't be necessary because everything will be virtual, from meetings to holidays in a holodeck. You won't have to travel anywhere. If you see your relatives in an virtual room it won't transmit viruses either. A holiday on the Bahamas in the simulator, wow and you can improve it anyhow you like from the people you meet to the weather. And you can keep endlessly pissing everyone off without heaving to fear consequences.  :)
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: AzCal Retred on November 15, 2021, 09:33:00 am
Kosynier delivers some new machines - fun pics.
https://kosynier.eu/blog/photorelation-european-grand-tour-kosynier/?__ca__chat=8JL6KyGd0SZ7

Kosynier & The Distinguished Gentleman's Ride
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7fEOLXLpATM
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: axman88 on November 15, 2021, 04:53:50 pm
Kosynier delivers some new machines - fun pics.
I look at these links and what I see is a publicity tour of European cities, a few bikes being shuttled around in a Ford Transit van.  The "European Grand Tour", to promote presale of bikes promised to be delivered in 2022.   

But an internet search showed me no evidence at all that any machine from this maker has been put into a buyer's hands.  Nothing on Facebook or Instagram.  The few videos on U-Tube were placed there by the Bielawski brothers, or are media reports.  I didn't find any reports in forums of anyone being delivered a bike.   This is disappointing, because their 10kW Boardtrack Racer, priced at $10,800 in the US, including $1000 of shipping, had a promised delivery date of July 2021.    https://kosynier.eu/extreme-retro-ebike-kosynier-boardtrack/   

Presale was closed a year ago on the Classics, but now it's open again, and with an announced 1000 euro price increase?
https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?id=376460172537360&story_fbid=1580276288822403

From my perspective, Kosynier has been in this same status of presale and promising, arguably since 2016 when the first articles were published and definitely since 2018 when their Indiegogo campaign was launched.  It's a handsome E-bike, and it would be nice to see some out there being ridden, especially since Juicer bikes closed shop in 2021.

Have you seen any reports of buyers receiving machines?
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: derottone on November 15, 2021, 06:00:20 pm
https://youtu.be/1Y5RGit16uE

This is an rather amazing interview with Elon displaying the electric future. You know I'm certainly going to make sure i own couple of horses 🐎 in the future.  ;D
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: AzCal Retred on November 20, 2021, 05:17:04 pm
...we're now living in the future...

BBC: Rolls-Royce says its all-electric aircraft 'is world's fastest'
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-derbyshire-59359263

Rolls-Royce believes its Spirit of Innovation plane could be the world's fastest all-electric aircraft.
The firm - whose aerospace headquarters are based in Derby - said the plane reached a top speed of 387.4 mph (623 km/h) during test runs at an experimental aircraft testing site.
It is thought to have set new World Records over three different distances.
The figures have been sent to the World Air Sports Federation for verification.
The test flights took place at Boscombe Down in Amesbury, Wiltshire, on 16 November.
The top speed was achieved by test pilot and director of flight operations Phill O'Dell.
"This is the highlight of my career and is an incredible achievement for the whole team," he said.
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: derottone on November 20, 2021, 10:36:30 pm
I comes from Britain, it's got to be Great. How long does it stay in the air? 5 minutes?
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: AzCal Retred on November 20, 2021, 11:35:53 pm
These test flights seem to be about 15 minutes each. That's still a good time for an aircraft to either exceed 380 MPH in a speed run or climb to over 10,000 feet, return & land. Or were you just hoping for a fiery crash & multiple fatalities?

https://www.rolls-royce.com/media/press-releases/2021/15-09-2021-rr-all-electric-spirit-of-innovation-takes-to-the-skies-for-the-first-time.aspx
The aircraft took off from the UK Ministry of Defence’s Boscombe Down site, which is managed by QinetiQ and flew for approximately 15 minutes. The site has a long heritage of experimental flights and the first flight marks the beginning of an intense flight-testing phase in which we will be collecting valuable performance data on the aircraft’s electrical power and propulsion system. The ACCEL programme, short for ‘Accelerating the Electrification of Flight’ includes key partners YASA, the electric motor and controller manufacturer, and aviation start-up Electroflight. The ACCEL team have continued to innovate while adhering to the UK Government’s social distancing and other health guidelines.

https://www.engadget.com/rolls-royces-all-electric-aircraft-completes-15-minute-maiden-voyage-143051424.html
Rolls-Royce, best known in aviation for its jet engines, has taken an all-electric airplane on its maiden voyage. The "Spirit of Innovation" completed a 15 minute flight, marking "the beginning of an intensive flight-testing phase in which we will be collecting valuable performance data on the aircraft’s electrical power and propulsion system," the company announced.
Rolls Royce said the one-seat airplane has "the most power-dense battery pack every assembled for an aircraft." The aircraft uses a 6,000 cell battery pack with a three-motor powertrain that currently delivers 400kW (500-plus horsepower), and Rolls-Royce said the aircraft will eventually achieve speeds of over 300 MPH.
The flight comes about a year after the originally scheduled takeoff and about six months after taxi trials. Rolls-Royce is also developing an air taxi with manufacturer Tecnam, with the aim of delivering an "all-electric passenger aircraft for the commuter market," according to the companies. It has previously teamed with Siemens and Airbus on another e-plane concept.
Aircraft companies have been exploring electric airplanes for a number of years, as air travel and cargo accounts for an increasing amount of greenhouse gases. The World Wildlife Foundation has called it "currently the most carbon intensive activity an individual can make."
Weight is a much bigger problem for airplanes that it is for cars, however. Ford's all-electric Lightning pickup weighs 1,800 pounds more than the gas-powered model, and offers a range that's slightly under half. However, if you added 1,800 pounds to to a Cessna 206 Turbo Stationair, you'd exceed its useful load by 500 pounds before you even loaded passengers (or the pilot) — so it wouldn't even get off the ground.
The project was half funded by the Aerospace Technology Institute and UK government, with the aim of eventually creating all-electric passenger planes. "This is not only about breaking a world record; the advanced battery and propulsion technology developed for this programme has exciting applications for the Urban Air Mobility market and can help make ‘jet zero’ a reality," said Rolls-Royce CEO Warren East. 

Schadenfreude - pleasure derived by someone from another person's misfortune.

Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: derottone on November 21, 2021, 07:17:26 am
Schadenfreude? Not exactly, but do you expect me to be overwhelmed? 15min is 3 times more airtime than i've expected which is phenomenal, great achievement.

A small step for man, a giant leap backwards for mankind.

That said i wouldn't mind owning one toy plane like that.
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: Richard230 on November 21, 2021, 01:48:32 pm
But electric power should work OK for dirigibles. Might want to use helium instead of hydrogen to fill them, though.  ;)
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: derottone on November 21, 2021, 02:06:34 pm
But electric power should work OK for dirigibles. Might want to use helium instead of hydrogen to fill them, though.  ;)

The electric Zeppelin might do it first over the Atlantic you think? Maybe with some additional solar panels on the large surface area after a months voyage or so.

Preferably with on board ambassies and a corona test centre, enough time for sorting all your visas and vaccination passports.
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: AzCal Retred on November 21, 2021, 05:48:56 pm
OR we could just skip the battery BS & go for readily available bio-diesel/"bio JP4" with a MUCH higher energy density and smaller eco-footprint. Lifting body aircraft like the Airlander make more sense if you want to go somewhere in a "reasonable" length of time and carry an actual payload. Or we could just sit around with our thumb up our asses making snarky comments "supported" by voodoo logic based alt-right publications.
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: derottone on November 21, 2021, 11:17:25 pm
OR we could just skip the battery BS & go for readily available bio-diesel/"bio JP4" with a MUCH higher energy density and smaller eco-footprint. Lifting body aircraft like the Airlander make more sense if you want to go somewhere in a "reasonable" length of time and carry an actual payload. Or we could just sit around with our thumb up our asses making snarky comments "supported" by voodoo logic based alt-right publications.

Yeah, but not without AdBlue, that would be too poluting even if you combust bio diesel. AdBlue however is not available anywhere, so the electric seems to be the only option.
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: GlennF on November 21, 2021, 11:56:15 pm
You know I'm certainly going to make sure i own couple of horses 🐎 in the future.  ;D

Horses are over-rated.

If you park your bike unattended in a garage over winter the most you need to get it going again is a new battery, often not even that.  If you park a horse unattended in a garage over winter you can guarantee it will never start again.

The other issue with horses is the fuel and maintenance is the same regardless of whether you ride them or not.

oh ... also they bite.  Though at least they do not spit, which the other option, llamas, are prone to do. The llama has never really been popular for personal transport though, probably due to the spitting issue.
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: AzCal Retred on November 22, 2021, 01:12:04 am
@ 294: That doesn't even make sense. There are multiple companies in the aero-bio-fuel biz already, and literally hundreds of thousands of emissions-legal commercial diesel semi's & delivery vehicles in service throughout the EU & USA. The glittering ass-sumption you'd have to be willing to make here to post that is that all the bio-aero folks didn't do their homework & every diesel vehicle is sidelined/OOS because there is no urea-injection fluid available. Neither possibility has a real world analog.

Looks more like an example of "The contrary, the most dangerous kind of Indian- Jack Crabb" in action.

Got your "bug out bag" ready?
80,000 Russian Troops Remain at Ukraine Border as U.S. and NATO Hold Exercises
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/05/05/us/politics/biden-putin-russia-ukraine.html


Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: derottone on November 22, 2021, 05:19:17 am
@296: All vehicles made and sold after 2015 complying to EURO 6 equipped with a diesel engine have urea-injection on board to keep the NOx down. That's probably not applicable to aircraft (yet).

Now if you bought for example a super duper 2018 Audi TDI station wagon and you don't fill urea in it than it's going to switch into an emergency mode and you will be limited to an top speed of approximately 15mph to keep the environment clean.

All trucks and lorries are equipped with urea injection for an even longer period of time. With no urea available, supply chains will be disrupted to an even larger degree. And those luxurious super clean sedans may drop in value like a stone. Who would want to fill piss in their cars anyway. Super clean super complex shit, since NOx is almost as deadly as Covid. ( = anyone who died would have died anyway).

https://english.radio.cz/freight-transport-czechia-threatened-shortage-adblue-fuel-additive-8731994

Nice to see where the tax money unvolunyarily donated to the EU went. Into Agrofert Holding, the urinating company.  ;D

Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: AzCal Retred on November 22, 2021, 07:54:45 pm
You don't even try, you just flail about looking for whatever "seems" right to support the random thoughts flitting thru your head. As long as they are conspiratorial, that's the maximum bang for the buck and you go for it. NOx? Eating a 50 cent box of salt will kill you, as well as 3 Castor Bean seeds.
The only interesting thing I saw was that lots of DEF comes from China & Russia. Restricting DEF supply adversely impacts the economies of the restrictees, a convenient leverage tool. Even more interesting is that the professional in-country watchdogs are not on the job here, they allowed it to happen, just like the (Chinese) microchip "shortage". Nobody is watching the store in Western countries - we gotta get the avalanche of money out of politics.   "Business is War"

https://wwwn.cdc.gov/TSP/MMG/MMGDetails.aspx?mmgid=394&toxid=69
Medical Management Guidelines for Nitrogen Oxides
Standards and Guidelines
Nitric Oxide: OSHA PEL (permissible exposure limit) = 25 ppm (averaged over an 8-hour workshift)
NIOSH IDLH (immediately dangerous to life or health) = 100 ppm
Nitrogen Dioxide: OSHA PEL (permissible exposure limit) = 5 ppm (Ceiling)
NIOSH IDLH (immediately dangerous to life or health) = 20 ppm
Nitrogen Dioxide AIHA ERPG-2 (maximum airborne concentration below which it is believed that nearly all persons could be exposed for up to 1 hour without experiencing or developing irreversible or other serious health effects or symptoms that could impair their abilities to take protective action) = 15 ppm
https://www3.epa.gov/ttn/naaqs/standards/nox/s_nox_history.html
This measurement table shows an average USA value of 100 PPB, which is 0.1 PPM, or only 0.4% of the PEL.

20 Sun Tzu Quotes That Apply To Business
https://moneyinc.com/sun-tzu-quotes/

https://www.argusmedia.com/en/news/2271588-south-korean-def-shortage-sparks-government-response
" The DEF shortage has been caused by new urea export restrictions from China "
" There are equally concerns about securing Russian automotive-grade urea supply "
Title: Tax Credits for E-Motos on the horizon
Post by: axman88 on November 23, 2021, 04:38:59 pm
A buddy of mine was telling me that he is waiting for this package to pass, so he can get money to replace his water and sewer pipes.

I'm more interested in 33% off on a new E ride.    https://electrek.co/2021/11/20/tax-credits-jump-to-1500-for-e-bikes-7500-for-electric-motorcycles-in-build-back-better-act/

Title: Re: Tax Credits for E-Motos on the horizon
Post by: derottone on November 23, 2021, 05:00:35 pm
A buddy of mine was telling me that he is waiting for this package to pass, so he can get money to replace his water and sewer pipes.

I'm more interested in 33% off on a new E ride.    https://electrek.co/2021/11/20/tax-credits-jump-to-1500-for-e-bikes-7500-for-electric-motorcycles-in-build-back-better-act/

I think i wait a little more until i get an e-ride for free, because in the future you will own nothing and be happy about it. Than i put the EV in my collection of obscurities.  ;D
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: Richard230 on December 03, 2021, 02:21:10 pm
Here is a new e-bike for you. Just don't ask me where they hid the battery. Perhaps the scooter is Fred Flintstone foot powered?  ::)   https://thepack.news/have-fun-working-in-2022-with-nitos-new-scooter-cargo-share/
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: derottone on December 03, 2021, 03:24:25 pm
Here is a new e-bike for you. Just don't ask me where they hid the battery. Perhaps the scooter is Fred Flintstone foot powered?  ::)   https://thepack.news/have-fun-working-in-2022-with-nitos-new-scooter-cargo-share/

That's something for Pepa Pig definitely. Maybe with a pedal generator, a chain to the backwheel is too old school. Than we talk efficiency.
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: axman88 on December 03, 2021, 03:33:57 pm
Here is a new e-bike for you. Just don't ask me where they hid the battery.
I would guess that the cells are inside the bottom deck, where the weight will be helpful in lowering the CG and promoting stability.

For something more traditional looking, how about the Maeving RM1?:    https://news.in-24.com/sports/motorbike/199099.html

Its specs. are not particularly impressive, but they did manage to make something that looks, to my eye, very pleasing. 
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: Nitrowing on December 03, 2021, 05:21:04 pm
So many 'designers' need their crayons removed, if not their fingers  ::)

These 2 don't look as atrocious...

The Pursang and the RGNT
https://www.ecenter.network/pursang-motorcycles
Pity about the built-in genital mutilation device on the Pursang  :o

https://www.ecenter.network/rgnt-motorcycles


Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: Richard230 on December 17, 2021, 02:09:26 pm
Here is an Italian electric motorbike startup concept with an electronic power controller that mimics a manual transmission which is looking for investors. The article includes a slick introduction video:  https://thepack.news/the-new-italian-electric-motorcycle-manufacturer-scarponi-motorcycles-launches-its-new-range-of-electric-motorbikes-on-indiegogo/ (https://thepack.news/the-new-italian-electric-motorcycle-manufacturer-scarponi-motorcycles-launches-its-new-range-of-electric-motorbikes-on-indiegogo/)
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: richard211 on December 17, 2021, 07:05:54 pm
It would have been better to have added a motorcycle gearbox in the first place to begin with, while it would add a little bit of extra weight, It would allow the motor to run under less stress and by dropping down a gear or two while going down hill it would make the regenerative braking more efficient and controllable compared to a fixed ratio electric motorcycle especially on wet roads. Having an overdrive would also allow the motor to run at a comparable top speed but without having the battery deplete its charge rapidly.
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: viczena on December 18, 2021, 04:14:08 pm
A gearbox is just dead weight for an electric vehicle. Especially on a bike.

The battery depletes its charge according to the used energy. A gearbox does not change it , it adds energy loss in the system.

Look at the Porsche Taycan. It has a 2 step gearbox. And it looses against the tesla Plaid in every way.
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: richard211 on December 18, 2021, 05:53:01 pm
A gearbox is just dead weight for an electric vehicle. Especially on a bike.

The battery depletes its charge according to the used energy. A gearbox does not change it , it adds energy loss in the system.

Look at the Porsche Taycan. It has a 2 step gearbox. And it looses against the tesla Plaid in every way.

In theory it can be proved without a doubt the gears would have a lot of disadvantages. But consider a real world application of a single speed bicycle and a 21 speed bicycle, why does the 21 speed bicycle climb up hills better have a higher top speed and the rider has less fatigue than if the same rider was riding a single speed bicycle.
 With 21 gears we are adding more weight, more friction, more maintenance, more expense and more moving parts so in theory it should be a disaster but in reality its not.

 Add a 250 watt mid mount motor driving the rear wheel of a bicycle with a 7 speed cassette gearset and a hub mounted 250 watt motor, eliminate the rider input via pedaling . The hub mounted motor is going to have better acceleration but its not going to have the range of the mid mounted motor since it has 7 different speed options. What happens in the situation when the bicycle with the hub mounted 250 watt motor is going to uphill? The battery is just going to deplete faster, the same happens when the bicycle with the 250 watt hub mounted motor is pushed to its legal top speed.

 




Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: derottone on December 18, 2021, 06:54:19 pm
A bicycle has a very rev range limited motor though - you. Typical cadence lies between 30 to 90 rpm where a typical sob averages max continuous power of 150Watt at approximately 60rpm. Kinda constant speed motor which needs many gears unlike an electric machine, that may need a gear but only for a good startability, the rest is a job for the vfd.
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: Richard230 on December 18, 2021, 10:29:08 pm
However, the subject electric motorbike does not have an actual gearbox. It has a computer program that mimics the feeling of a gearbox. I have my doubts how useful that is to the rider as it sounds like it will just modify the motor's output depending upon the activation of a button.  ???
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: derottone on December 19, 2021, 04:22:25 am
However, the subject electric motorbike does not have an actual gearbox. It has a computer program that mimics the feeling of a gearbox. I have my doubts how useful that is to the rider as it sounds like it will just modify the motor's output depending upon the activation of a button.  ???

Audi tried something like that with their CVT's and programmed about 6 or 7 steps in that gearbox. Probably better than the rubber band feeling it would otherwise have, nevertheless it wasn't of any major market success, soon after that DCT's came out and the CVT's were dropped.
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: richard211 on December 19, 2021, 05:34:38 am
Mini Cooper equipped CVT models too had a similar feature where the "shift points" needed to be calibrated and there is a detailed adaptation process that needed to be completed should the battery had gone flat.
 It involved going through a process of intialization of the adaptation process then taking the car on the road and accelerating to 55mph and let the car coast down to a near stop without the brakes being appied. This can only be done when the engine has cooled down, which meant if by any chance the brake was applied before the car coasted to a near stop, the whole process had to be redone after the engine cooled down.

 The procedure also includes a warning that says on higher mileage cars there is a risk damaging the transmission.
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: Richard230 on December 19, 2021, 01:37:38 pm
Mini Cooper equipped CVT models too had a similar feature where the "shift points" needed to be calibrated and there is a detailed adaptation process that needed to be completed should the battery had gone flat.
 It involved going through a process of intialization of the adaptation process then taking the car on the road and accelerating to 55mph and let the car coast down to a near stop without the brakes being appied. This can only be done when the engine has cooled down, which meant if by any chance the brake was applied before the car coasted to a near stop, the whole process had to be redone after the engine cooled down.

 The procedure also includes a warning that says on higher mileage cars there is a risk damaging the transmission.

That initialization process doesn't seem to be something that most vehicle customers would embrace if they had to do it themselves and even less so if they had to pay their dealer to do it.  ::)
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: derottone on December 19, 2021, 01:50:02 pm
That initialization process doesn't seem to be something that most vehicle customers would embrace if they had to do it themselves and even less so if they had to pay their dealer to do it.  ::)

It's crap, however more and more companies engage in selling service plans and obstacles like that since the margines on their products are often very slim. Im sure AzCal can give some interesting story to it since it's common practice and makes sense with industrial equipment such as steam or gas turbines for power generation.

Now we have companies around that will sell you an vacuum cleaner and try to push a service plan on you. That would IMO leave anyone wondering if there is something wrong with that product, however some people seem to be still buying into it.
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: Richard230 on December 19, 2021, 02:06:04 pm
I should mention that ever since Zero redesigned their electric motors about 5 years ago to an "internal permanent magnet" design  to make them more resistant to overheating, they have wanted the owners of their bikes to return to their dealers every 8K miles to have their motors "commissioned". I think that involves the use of a magic wand.   ;D
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: johnakay on December 19, 2021, 08:19:22 pm
Zero bikes are not worth the money.
20 grand for a bike that can't do more than 100 miles.
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: Richard230 on December 19, 2021, 10:22:54 pm
Zero bikes are not worth the money.
20 grand for a bike that can't do more than 100 miles.

They are perfect commute motorcycles where you are traveling a fixed distance every day. If your employer provides free EV charging, that is useful plus. And don't forget, they require almost no maintenance, except for chassis wear items, like tires and an occasional set of brake pads.  ;) That can save a lot of money in the long run if you typically take your bike to a dealer for servicing.
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: derottone on December 20, 2021, 09:56:02 am
As for me if I was to put down 20 grand for a two wheeler I may as well take some fat ars couch like a HD or the R18, atealst in 10-20 years it´s going to have still a value almost unchanged to today if not greater considering the destruction the retards in davos are driving forward. Your "high voltage" horse is worthless the day the the battery needs replacement. Better flush the cash of folks like Schwab or Gates down the toilet, everyone would be better off.
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: Richard230 on December 20, 2021, 02:28:20 pm
As for me if I was to put down 20 grand for a two wheeler I may as well take some fat ars couch like a HD or the R18, atealst in 10-20 years it´s going to have still a value almost unchanged to today if not greater considering the destruction the retards in davos are driving forward. Your "high voltage" horse is worthless the day the the battery needs replacement. Better flush the cash of folks like Schwab or Gates down the toilet, everyone would be better off.

I have yet to hear of anyone needing a battery replacement due to long usage of a Zero. The battery packs that I have heard being replaced by Zero owners were always done at Zero's cost during their 5-year warranty because of factory assembly, battery cell, or BMS defects.

I have the largest battery pack available (16.6 kWh nominal) when I bought my current Zero in 2018. At the time Zero claimed that the pack would last for 380,000 miles before reaching 80% of its original capacity. When was the last time anyone here kept a motorcycle for that long? (Frankly, I doubt that the Zero chassis would last much past 100K before needing replacement of  every one of it moving parts - including the motor.) BTW, my daughter is riding my old 2014 Zero and it still runs as well after 8 years and has as long a range as it did when new.

However, I do agree that the current electric freeway-legal motorcycles are still too expensive, especially as the "major" brands in the U.S., Zero, Energica and LiveWireOne, all cost too much for what you get as these manufacturers are focused on the high end of the market in order to push both the technology, their performance claims and their profits. However, Zero does have a model that sells for around $10K, which with the 10% federal IRS income tax credit and hundreds of dollars of rebates by a few states, like California, does get its price, if not its performance, into the 600cc gas-powered motorcycle price range. It would be helpful if the U.S. electric motorcycle manufacturers would offer more "budget" EVs to the market.

What is odd is why the Chinese, that sell millions of electric motorbikes and scooters every year haven't bothered to enter the North American market. Maybe they are happy to just sell electric bicycles here and avoid the cost of setting up dealerships, supply, service and other issues that go along with selling highway-legal vehicles here.  ???
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: Stanley on December 20, 2021, 04:51:39 pm
How and why does it seem desirable to flush other people's maney into the sewer?
Firstly, Gates and Schwab might disagree to the process.
Secondly it would clog the toilet with cotton fiber paper.
Thirdly, battery service life well exceeds that of a clogged toilet.
Fourth, Harleys clog the resale market but electrics don't.
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: Nitrowing on December 20, 2021, 05:32:51 pm
How many old Honda C90 or CG125's can I get for £20'000?
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: derottone on December 20, 2021, 07:53:42 pm
How and why does it seem desirable to flush other people's maney into the sewer?
Firstly, Gates and Schwab might disagree to the process.
Secondly it would clog the toilet with cotton fiber paper.
Thirdly, battery service life well exceeds that of a clogged toilet.
Fourth, Harleys clog the resale market but electrics don't.

That's some interesting points.

Firstly, to slow down the growth in undesirable markets. Secondly the toilet seems already clogged.

I'm in agreements with three and four.
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: Richard230 on December 20, 2021, 10:29:25 pm
Meanwhile, Ducati is testing an electric racing motorcycle prototype for use when Energica quits the MotoE competition at the end of next year.  When Ducati finally markets an electric street bike, how much do you think that will set you back?  ::)
https://www.motorcycle.com/features/ducati-motoe-prototype-electric-racebike-makes-public-testing-debut.html
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: AzCal Retred on December 21, 2021, 12:39:35 am
....but think of the Glory.... ;D ;D ;D

I'll just tow it behind my new Taycan on its platinum trailer.
https://www.truecar.com/porsche/taycan/
https://www.taycanforum.com/forum/threads/towing.318/
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: AzCal Retred on December 21, 2021, 02:50:43 am
Stark VARG: the world's fastest motocross bike is now electric

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ozEEvlgtTPE
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: derottone on December 21, 2021, 07:49:10 am
Stark VARG: the world's fastest motocross bike is now electric

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ozEEvlgtTPE

Interesting, they might be making up some of the figures however it seems well engineered and it looks good too. The phone and all the settings might be annoying, i would need only one setting, a well hidden button that downgrades it to the speeds of an electric bicycle so i don't have to bother with any regs at all and can offer the government agent a test ride.

I always wanterd to ride under water.  ::)
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: Richard230 on December 21, 2021, 02:49:22 pm
And now we have the German eROCKIT motorbike. Is is a bird, is it a plane, a rocking chair?, no it is an electric ROCKIT with pedals and they are looking for investors so that they can make more eROCKITS: https://thepack.news/electric-vehicle-manufacturer-erockit-is-preparing-for-the-future/
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: derottone on December 21, 2021, 04:36:04 pm
And now we have the German eROCKIT motorbike. Is is a bird, is it a plane, a rocking chair?, no it is an electric ROCKIT with pedals and they are looking for investors so that they can make more eROCKITS: https://thepack.news/electric-vehicle-manufacturer-erockit-is-preparing-for-the-future/

Looks like something i wouldn't put a cent into, unlike the swedish wolf which is too good to be true.Would love to see that, with such specs it's got to take over the world and it's a bargain too.
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: derottone on December 21, 2021, 06:59:08 pm
....but think of the Glory.... ;D ;D ;D

I'll just tow it behind my new Taycan on its platinum trailer.
https://www.truecar.com/porsche/taycan/
https://www.taycanforum.com/forum/threads/towing.318/

Surprisingly that Porsche looks actually too cheap for being a Porsche with 81k$, some no name brands sell at about same or higher cost in that category.
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: AzCal Retred on December 21, 2021, 08:44:36 pm
@ #329: Oh No Worries, the Taycan just starts in the $80K range. The actual one you'd be caught driving around in specs out at near $250K USD... :o  Not sure what the trailer hauling the Ducati MotoE would have to be made of, maybe titanium cut from the hull of a decommissioned Alfa Unterseeboot and tyres filled with Helium II...so keep those valve caps on tight or the Rollin effect will leave your conspicuous consumption efforts flat...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alfa-class_submarine

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helium#Helium_II.
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: derottone on December 22, 2021, 08:44:11 am
As for me a real Porsche is a flat six and aircooled anyway. Maybe they will come one day from China too and finally affordable?
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: viczena on December 22, 2021, 08:54:51 am
Surprisingly that Porsche looks actually too cheap for being a Porsche with 81k$, some no name brands sell at about same or higher cost in that category.

Just add that 60% of all taycans have a defective battery pack due to a badly engeneered loading electronic. This loading circuits are still assembled in the new cars.
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: AzCal Retred on December 22, 2021, 03:32:56 pm
Should be plenty of spare parts out there for the EV bike & motorcycle modding crowd then!  ;D
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: derottone on December 22, 2021, 06:05:53 pm
Should be plenty of spare parts out there for the EV bike & motorcycle modding crowd then!  ;D

If it was me i would probably rather scrap the faulty parts than dumping it on the market or playing Santa Claus, i doubt that company thinks much diffently. Only dumping that occures is when the gob. pays the difference.  ;)
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: AzCal Retred on December 22, 2021, 08:09:25 pm
You never bought bits & pieces from a scrapyard?

My pal David bought a great piece of chromoly from the aircraft scrapyard in Tucson. We got it home, carefully fishmouthed it to fit up precisely to the other frame tube it was intended to reinforce. Out comes the 7018 rod, first tack in progress. The 7018 rolls off the new tube like water off of wax. Much head scratching. More tube cleaning. Try again - same result. Dave gets an inspired look, out comes a magnet - no stick at all...but it was a VERY NICE piece of titanium... :o ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: derottone on December 22, 2021, 08:53:42 pm
I wait with the visit to the scrapyard until the 80% vaxxed surrender their ice vehicles and drop it of at the yards.  ;)
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: GlennF on December 22, 2021, 11:30:49 pm
You never bought bits & pieces from a scrapyard?

My pal David bought a great piece of chromoly from the aircraft scrapyard in Tucson. We got it home, carefully fishmouthed it to fit up precisely to the other frame tube it was intended to reinforce. Out comes the 7018 rod, first tack in progress. The 7018 rolls off the new tube like water off of wax. Much head scratching. More tube cleaning. Try again - same result. Dave gets an inspired look, out comes a magnet - no stick at all...but it was a VERY NICE piece of titanium... :o ;D ;D ;D

So you dug out the TIG ?
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: derottone on December 23, 2021, 01:26:33 pm
...so keep those valve caps on tight or the Rollin effect will leave your conspicuous consumption efforts flat...

...as for me, what ever efforts i might have taken that lead to what ever results have been faked up. I'm totally corrupt.  ;)
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: AzCal Retred on December 23, 2021, 05:31:54 pm
@ #337: it was about 1976, we were lucky to have a stick welder! ;D ;D ;D 

I guess the main point was take your magnet to the aviation scrapyard if the intent is to buy steel. So, when is your titanium Bullet frame going to be ready for the road? That or aluminum would certainly make a nice piece!
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: derottone on December 23, 2021, 05:47:31 pm
Probably never. No aluminium, neither titanium around sorry, however some CrMo tubing, not sure what to make out of them yet.
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: Carl Fenn on December 24, 2021, 12:12:08 am
Life would be great if only these defective people who write transport laws knew what they are doing, they let the lunatics run one big asylum so unfortunate and not green at all, they class electric bikes as a moped when you can pedal a bike faster.
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: derottone on December 24, 2021, 10:19:11 am
https://vm.tiktok.com/ZM8Tum9ra/

...here come the new covid regulations for 2022. It's going to be an awesome year for sure.  ::)
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: AzCal Retred on December 24, 2021, 04:29:45 pm
@ #342: ...so, we get our news from TikTok? Fortunately for us Westerners, the PRC has never been known to use it's large corporations as either information gathering tools or disinformation dissemination outlets. And everything on the intranet is true & verifiable.
It'll be a nice day for an alt-right anti-vax "freedumb" march on the Reichstag & US Capitol soon, probably just before Taiwan & Ukraine get the hammer treatment. Will it be coincidence or fate?

The USA - 814,000 and climbing! We're #1!  :o

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TikTok
TikTok, known in China as Douyin (Chinese: 抖音; pinyin: Dǒuyīn), is a video-focused social networking service owned by Chinese company ByteDance.[4] It hosts a variety of short-form user videos, from genres like pranks, stunts, tricks, jokes, dance, and entertainment[5][6] with durations from 15 seconds to three minutes.[7][8][9] TikTok is an international version of Douyin, which was originally released in the Chinese market in September 2016.[10] TikTok was launched in 2017 for iOS and Android in most markets outside of mainland China; however, it became available worldwide only after merging with another Chinese social media service, Musical.ly, on 2 August 2018.

Concerns have been voiced regarding content relating to, and the promotion and spreading of, hateful words and far-right extremism, such as anti-semitism, racism, and xenophobia. Some videos were shown to expressly deny the existence of the Holocaust and told viewers to take up arms and fight in the name of white supremacy and the swastika.[163] As TikTok has gained popularity among young children,[164] and the popularity of extremist and hateful content is growing, calls for tighter restrictions on their flexible boundaries have been made. TikTok have since released tougher parental controls to filter out inappropriate content and to ensure they can provide sufficient protection and security.[165]



Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: derottone on December 24, 2021, 04:47:14 pm
Hmmm, even if you put a golden lettering to it...makes about as much sense as tiktok.  ;)

Marry Christmas.  :)
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: AzCal Retred on December 25, 2021, 04:33:14 am
If we're talking sense, go down and get your jab. Do what's reasonable, not entertaining.
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: derottone on December 25, 2021, 09:56:27 am
If we're talking sense, go down and get your jab. Do what's reasonable, not entertaining.

Entertainment makes sence, it's been reduced to tv though.

https://www.needforlife.info/importance-of-entertainment/amp/
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: derottone on December 25, 2021, 12:07:37 pm
Entertainment makes sence, it's been reduced to tv though.

https://www.needforlife.info/importance-of-entertainment/amp/

Ever since the Swedish politicos got into entertainment it's turned into a show i'm not interested to see at all. You wouldn't want to play football with them, winner is the looser, looser is the winner. If you win you may have to excuse yourself for playing better. You see this crap in everything including formula "e" where they introduced a thing called fan boost. I doubt Ayrton Senna would want anything like that when racing against Prost.
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: AzCal Retred on December 25, 2021, 09:48:48 pm
So - entertainment is prioritized over necessity? Out here in the sticks, even some of the most die hard "Red Pill-ers" are waking up to the fact that, as one lady put it, "This shit is real". It did take her own dear Granny getting sick enough to be taken to Hospital though. Apparently unless the kill rate is high, likely at least 5%, a communicable disease registers as a non-event to about 30% of us. Particularly if you are personally physically unaffected. "Out of sight, out of mind", yes?
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: Carl Fenn on December 25, 2021, 11:10:52 pm
Well you see no one pays any attention until it effects them certainly will over the next ten years, but l do think electric bikes have a place in urban settings, the problem is our genetically defective police won’t let progress take it course, they have none sensible laws and want to corporate exploit everyone hardy green state control.
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: derottone on December 26, 2021, 07:43:51 am
So - entertainment is prioritized over necessity? Out here in the sticks, even some of the most die hard "Red Pill-ers" are waking up to the fact that, as one lady put it, "This shit is real". It did take her own dear Granny getting sick enough to be taken to Hospital though. Apparently unless the kill rate is high, likely at least 5%, a communicable disease registers as a non-event to about 30% of us. Particularly if you are personally physically unaffected. "Out of sight, out of mind", yes?

What does help you a free jab for covid, when you have an income that doesn't doesn't pay your bills. When the trucks don't roll, food doesn't get delivered, heater does not work. Half the population is academics clapping themselves on the shoulders what a fantastic speach they gave, other half of the population spends their lives in pubs drinking from morning to evening to wash their brains from the bullshit they had to listen to? Ya everything has degraded to a shity entertainment in Swedotopia.

So ya, how about a shot of heroine or morphine? That's going to do the job even better.

Why would anyone care about anyone elses bloved granny dying when you can't even go to the funeral of your own, due to being locked down, or swedish pedos steeling your resources and brainwashing your kids?
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: Carl Fenn on December 26, 2021, 12:51:18 pm
Well the problem with society today is it has become very selfish every one for them selves, the men in the pub just rabbit recited bullshit not worth a listen or cost of a pint, the academics talk shit half the time they don’t know what they are talking about, sweet world indeed.
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: derottone on December 26, 2021, 01:08:02 pm
Atleast the music is getting really good.   ;D

https://youtu.be/KynkMn5Hv3Q

Is this the office where they make the covid regs? Who could possibly handle that many, our politicos don't seem to be able to handle even the one they are married to. ;D ;D ;D

Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: Karl Childers on December 26, 2021, 04:01:55 pm
Atleast the music is getting really good.   ;D

https://youtu.be/KynkMn5Hv3Q

Is this the office where they make the covid regs? Who could possibly handle that many, our politicos don't seem to be able to handle even the one they are married to. ;D ;D ;D

Malcom X is rolling in his grave.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QnJFhuOWgXg
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: AzCal Retred on December 26, 2021, 04:07:20 pm
" Why would anyone care about anyone elses bloved granny dying "
" Well the problem with society today is it has become very selfish every one for them selves "
" Well you see no one pays any attention until it effects them certainly will over the next ten years, .... the problem is our genetically defective police won’t let progress take it course, they have none sensible laws and want to corporate exploit everyone ....  "

I guess that pretty much covers it, from absolute non-concern for others in their own society to a testament to the wonders of raw Darwinian selection. Things look bleak for y'all, maybe Sarco is onto something, finally giving the folks with nothing to look forward to and who've thoroughly given up an easy way out. That's either altruism or clever marketing, gotta hand it to them either way. Well, "Operators are standing by, plan ahead, don't wait until things get too crowded...". Switzerland is way better than Sweden, right? Have a great view of icy, rocky crags as you sip your coco (with mini-marshmallows, of course) and slip away to a "better place".
EDIT ( So, a Megan tha Stallion music video is a demographic plus? Who knew - I guess add "Motel Death" to the list of Sarco final extras package?)

Sarco suicide capsule hopes to enter Switzerland
https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/sarco-suicide-capsule--passes-legal-review--in-switzerland/46966510
A 3D-printed capsule destined for use in assisted suicide hopes to operate in Switzerland, according to Exit International, the organisation that developed the ‘Sarco’ machine.
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: derottone on December 26, 2021, 04:38:18 pm
Malcom X is rolling in his grave.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QnJFhuOWgXg

Vast parts of the swedish population are atheist, the plumbers there are not black.
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: AzCal Retred on December 26, 2021, 04:48:40 pm
Definitions from Oxford Languages
non se·qui·tur : /ˌnän ˈsekwədər/ : noun
A conclusion or statement that does not logically follow from the previous argument or statement. "his weird mixed metaphors and non sequiturs"

Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: derottone on December 26, 2021, 06:04:32 pm
Exit international, what fine organisation is that? Exit what, international trade? Exit the planet?

Switzerland might have expanded to Sweden, is it that what turned the country upside down?

How is it going with the TIG welder?
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: AzCal Retred on December 26, 2021, 11:47:38 pm
Looks like the old neurons are firing at random again, too much Eierlikoer?

Haven't found a previous reference in the thread for "exit international"; catchy though, maybe copyright it?

Here's a real WTF moment: "Switzerland might have expanded to Sweden, is it that what turned the country upside down?"

Are you trying to post me a TIG machine? Thanks in advance. Or just send a cashier's cheque, save the postage. Harbor Freight has a functional selection for under $800, a blank check will work out just as well.

Keep downing those Red Pills, no doubt reality will coalesce soon. They are doing a helluva job so far... :o
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: GlennF on December 27, 2021, 03:53:55 am
Vast parts of the swedish population are atheist

I recall reading somewhere some young Swedish people have an unfortunate habit of running around burning down historic churches.
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: AzCal Retred on December 27, 2021, 08:24:49 am
Looks like the "Black Metal" band crowd is accountable for many of the Scandinavian church burnings. There is an Alt-Right tendency in "Black Metal" also. Sweden, Ireland, England, Australia, Austria, Belgium, Canada, and many more nations have similar numbers of "Irreligious people". But by not citing any proof to back your assertions, you can cast shade far and wide to suit your mood. Noise...
" Vast parts of the swedish population are atheist " Apparently not significantly more than many other countries.
" I recall reading somewhere some young Swedish people have an unfortunate habit of running around burning down historic churches. " Looking like the "Black Metal Alt-Right" crowd has a hand in most of that.

https://www.fairobserver.com/region/europe/dominic-alessio-robert-wallis-black-metal-extreme-right-music-scene-news-41994/
Black metal is also associated with a series of church burnings across Norway in the 1990s by Varg Vikernes, a racist heathen and black metal musician. More recently, it was reported that Holden Matthew, the 21-year-old charged with burning down three black churches in Louisiana, was also influenced by black metal and held racist heathen beliefs. Some of black metal’s aesthetics even appear to have influenced the violent imaginary of the neo-Nazi Atomwaffen Division. Plato may have been correct when he warned “about the interconnectivity of politics and music.”

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_irreligion
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: Richard230 on December 27, 2021, 02:43:39 pm
I recall reading somewhere some young Swedish people have an unfortunate habit of running around burning down historic churches.

I also recall hearing about rival motorcycle gangs in Sweden and the Netherlands shooting RPG rounds into each other's club houses a few years ago.  Sounds like fun.  But maybe not as much fun as building down historic churches.  ::)

Say, shouldn't this topic be in the California and Sweden thread?  ???  Unless they are using EV batteries to start those fires.  :o
Title: Top E-Moto News of 2021
Post by: axman88 on December 27, 2021, 06:22:28 pm
Micah Toll is a personal electric vehicle enthusiast, author of the Amazon bestselling books DIY Lithium Batteries, DIY Solar Power and the Ultimate DIY Ebike Guide, and writes for Electrek.

His picks for the biggest E-Moto news of 2021 were:

- Sondors $5000 Metacycle, 80 mph, 80 mile range
- BMW's funky, low speed, lightweight, the Vison AMBY
- The utilitarian, US made Volcon Grunt
- ALYI's retro R71 interpretation, that wasn't.
- Kawasaki's announcement that it would release THREE new E-motos in 2022.

https://electrek.co/2021/12/22/these-were-the-top-5-biggest-electric-motorcycle-news-stories-of-2021/
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: AzCal Retred on December 27, 2021, 07:07:53 pm
@ GlennF @ 361: Looks like around #336 the dead horse of Sweden got irrationally dragged into the mix. Maybe the Bilgemaster can excise (or delete) this chunk back over to the woo-woo thread?

Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: AzCal Retred on December 27, 2021, 07:23:26 pm
Axman88 @ # 362: Is this an actual thing? A $1300 USD EV that goes about 95 miles on a charge around town?

Revolt’s 53 MPH (85 km/h) budget electric motorcycle begins making deliveries
Micah Toll - - Oct. 19th 2019 4:37 am PT
https://electrek.co/2019/10/19/revolt-rv400-budget-electric-motorcycle-deliveries/
Revolt has since offered a second option for customers to buy the RV400 outright at a cost of around US $1,300.
The Revolt RV400 electric motorcycle is designed to compete with 150cc motorcycles and carries a top speed of 85 km/h (53 mph). Its 3.25 kWh battery is rated for a range of up to 156 km (97 mi) on a single charge, though that range is when traveling at city speeds.
The RV400 does show some differences when compared to the Super SOCO TC or TS models. In addition to minor body panel updates, the RV400 uses a mid-mounted motor with a belt drive, whereas the Super SOCO TC and TS models both use rear hub motors.


Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: axman88 on December 27, 2021, 09:51:20 pm
Axman88 @ # 362: Is this an actual thing? A $1300 USD EV that goes about 95 miles on a charge around town?

It appears to me that at this point the Revolt RV400 is only being offered to the India market.
https://www.livemint.com/auto-news/revolt-rv400-electric-motorcycle-bookings-to-open-in-70-cities-from-october-21-11634638907096.html

I suspect that the prices quoted in US $ are "equivalent prices", kind of like saying that the RE Meteor's price is $3,333 because it sells for 2.4 lahk in Mumbai.  When and if the machine is offered to the US market, I'd anticipate the price would be substantially more.  Also, bargain "introductory pricing" seems to be a huge thing in the EV market.  There's already talk that the price of the Sondors Metacycle will go up by $1000 ( 20%), or more, and the first units haven't shipped to buyers yet.

But it definitely looks like the Revolt RV400 is a real thing in India.  Here's a very believable interview with a young man who says he's put 14,000km  (8,750 miles) on his RV400 over 7 months, commuting 80km/day (50 miles) , and with longer rides up to 140km (92 miles) on a single charge.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kmbxbg-127o   

The most impressive part of his story to me, is that this young man has the self discipline to travel for over 4 hours at 35 kph!   ( 22 mph), which is apparently what it takes to extract the maximum range from the modest 3.24KWh 72V, Lithium-ion battery. 

The RV400 is equipped with a 3kW mid motor.  I've seen some electric bicycles given this much and even more power, up to 10kW.  Here's a $350 mid motor kit that claims 3kW:  https://lunacycle.com/cyclone-mid-drive-3000w-planetary-kit/

Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: AzCal Retred on December 27, 2021, 11:40:34 pm
Thanks for the info & great links! That 3KW motor looks like the ticket for a home built transporter. Seems like a Honda Ruckus-like platform would provide room for adequate batteries. Apparently you'll need 4KW-5KW worth of battery to go reliably 100 miles, flat ground, maybe 30 MPH. 
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: AzCal Retred on December 27, 2021, 11:55:51 pm
The NIU line is being sold by the "Genuine Scooter Company", at least the scooters.

http://www.genuinescooters.com/grandtourer150.html

https://electrek.co/2020/01/07/niu-rqi-gt-electric-motorcycle-unveiled-affordability/
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: Richard230 on December 28, 2021, 02:03:10 pm
It looks like e-bikes and electric motorcycles are getting the "Dutch rub" when it comes to tax incentives in the Netherlands. Here is the story: https://thepack.news/newsflash-electric-motorbikes-and-mopeds-are-losing-their-mia-vamil-advantages-for-entrepreneurs-in-the-netherlands/

Perhaps Derottone can advise us if this is a Swedish plot to eliminate Dutch electric motorcycle investors and force them to return to funding steam-powered bicycles.  ;)
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: derottone on December 28, 2021, 02:54:02 pm
It looks like e-bikes and electric motorcycles are getting the "Dutch rub" when it comes to tax incentives in the Netherlands. Here is the story: https://thepack.news/newsflash-electric-motorbikes-and-mopeds-are-losing-their-mia-vamil-advantages-for-entrepreneurs-in-the-netherlands/

Perhaps Derottone can advise us if this is a Swedish plot to eliminate Dutch electric motorcycle investors and force them to return to funding steam-powered bicycles.  ;)

The Swedish mafia always wins. As soon as you´ve made an huge commitment to something they change the rules. Some most obvious examples in Sweden are their former municipality owned rotten down swimming pools and spas, i don´t know how many times they´ve been "privatized" already, however I´ve never seen properties changing hands as quickliy. It seems there is no shortage of a greater fool who want´s to buy into it and be fleeced.  Unquestionably, they must be waiting now for some chinese SOB fleeing the chinese holy grail of social credit system to put his money down, so that they can apply the same technology on him, maybe even in an more advanced way. Who knows he could spit on the ground in the public or throw a burned down ciggarete somewhere as all sweds do that would definitely mark him social credit unworthy. First they would come with penalties, and increase them until he can't pay anymore. If he would not sell out by that time, it would be confiscated and the SOB if lucky would leave the country before they lock him in. The perfect place to invest and earn a ZERO return.  ;D
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: Richard230 on December 28, 2021, 03:10:57 pm
The Swedish mafia always wins. As soon as you´ve made an huge commitment to something they change the rules. Some most obvious examples in Sweden are their former municipality owned rotten down swimming pools and spas, i don´t know how many times they´ve been "privatized" already, however I´ve never seen properties changing hands as quickliy. It seems there is no shortage of a greater fool who want´s to buy into it and be fleeced.  Unquestionably, they must be waiting now for some chinese SOB fleeing the chinese holy grail of social credit system to put his money down, so that they can apply the same technology on him, maybe even in an more advanced way. Who knows he could spit on the ground in the public or throw a burned down ciggarete somewhere as all sweds do that would definitely mark him social credit unworthy. First they would come with penalties, and increase them until he can't pay anymore. If he would not sell out by that time, it would be confiscated and the SOB if lucky would leave the country before they lock him in. The perfect place to invest and earn a ZERO return.  ;D

Fun and games in Sweden, then.  ;)
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: AzCal Retred on December 28, 2021, 04:57:05 pm
" The perfect place to invest and earn a ZERO return. " Zero return? That money goes somewhere, just not into your pocket. "Then what has the gold makes the rules". Why didn't you join up with the money making crowd whilst you were over there if that was your intent? As far as the Mafia always winning, a well scoped .338 Lapua in the hands of a cancered out retiree means if you are within 1000 meters, you are close enough to even the score. And as far as stealing via legal contract, compound interest, or good old treachery, that strategy has been in effect since "time immoral", son. That's why the folks at the top of the food chain "has the gold", certainly NOBODY makes that kind of money working an honest job. Come live in the USA for awhile and you'll soon see that the real criminals are 2nd & 3rd generation Harvard & Yale business graduates. Look at the 2 tier prison system, where the poor criminals go to lock up hell & the white collar ones that have financially decimated tens of thousands of lives go to the "country club" version. Sweden has no hammerlock on evil, it just happens to be the one that personally offended you; EVERYONE else here knows this sniglet of life knowledge already. For corporate evil, try living in a 1930's coal town, shopping only at the company store on company credit, with the company Foremen & Bulldogs enforcing the unwritten self-serving rules. Just like with sex, your generation (or geographic location) isn't the discoverer of venality either...you are about 100,000 years too late for that.
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: derottone on December 28, 2021, 05:42:39 pm
Blablabla, no gold in Sweden, only a extorsion machine and the gob. Just sit and wait for the gob. check, anything else is pointless. Cuba is a better place, atleast the weather is good as well as the cigars.  ;) Good luck joining the Swedish mafia, the terms and contract might be somewhat flexible.
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: AzCal Retred on December 28, 2021, 06:34:28 pm
" Blablabla, no gold in Sweden, only a(n?) extorsion machine and the government, just sit and wait for the gob. check...The Swedish mafia always wins."
So which is it, broke or affluent? Those "Gob cheques" don't appear from nowhere. The Swedes are living OK, you don't read about people being scraped up off the ice with the aid of a steam cleaner too often. They seem to maintain a reasonable military presence to discourage those borsch & caviar eaters across the Gulf too. Sounds like a lot of "sour-grapes blablabla" to me.

" Good luck joining the Swedish mafia, the terms and contract might be somewhat flexible. "
The join-up criteria always seems to be a question of commitment, rather like hiring onto a large truck manufacturer like Scania or Volvo, just piss test clean, show up every day, hit it a lick, get along with others and never make the Company look bad. As far as various "mafias" go, I've heard they all have a retirement plan "to die for"...your chosen company was likely no different. 
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: derottone on December 28, 2021, 06:52:58 pm
The Bolsheviks in there definitely have retirement plans to "kill" for. Parasitic scum.

Company is chosen for you.  ;) You are quite an optimist. Fu#k heads want to know what you do 24/7.
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: AzCal Retred on December 28, 2021, 09:24:20 pm
Bol·she·vik : /ˈbōlSHəˌvik/ :
HISTORICAL - a member of the majority faction of the Russian Social Democratic Party, which was renamed the Communist Party after seizing power in the October Revolution of 1917.
DEROGATORY - (in general use) a person with politically subversive or radical views; a revolutionary. {Interestingly to me this would nicely cover todays Alt-Reich movement...being that they are radically out-of-step with the majority perspective...}

The Bolsheviks in there definitely have retirement plans to "kill" for. Parasitic scum.
Transformative political events don't happen arbitrarily. The Bolsheviks were a response to the oppressive Czar rule that preceded 1905. There wasn't anyway to go but up, so the first volunteer to lead that was "a'gin the Tsars" was an improvement. There was nothing reasonable about either system, but the Bolsheviks sounded better than still being under the God-Emperors lethal thumb.

" Company is chosen for you. "
You are telling me with a straight face that a large corporation has no hiring criteria? Not my experience at all.

F-heads want to know what you do 24/7.
"...get along with others and never make the Company look bad." I'm sure some more than others, especially quasi-management Engineer types. ::)

https://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/bolsheviks-revolt-in-russia
In the early 1900s, Russia was one of the most impoverished countries in Europe with an enormous peasantry and a growing minority of poor industrial workers.
Much of Western Europe viewed Russia as an undeveloped, backwards society. The Russian Empire practiced serfdom—a form of feudalism in which landless peasants were forced to serve the land-owning nobility—well into the nineteenth century. In contrast, the practice had disappeared in most of Western Europe by the end of the Middle Ages.
A population boom at the end of the 19th century, a harsh growing season due to Russia’s northern climate, and a series of costly wars—starting with the Crimean War (1854-1856)—meant frequent food shortages across the vast empire.
Large protests by Russian workers against the monarchy led to the Bloody Sunday massacre of 1905. Hundreds of unarmed protesters were killed or wounded by the czar’s troops. The massacre sparked the Russian revolution of 1905, during which angry workers responded with a series of crippling strikes throughout the country.


https://www.britannica.com/topic/Bolshevik

https://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/bolsheviks-revolt-in-russia
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: derottone on December 29, 2021, 02:52:25 pm
https://www.msn.com/en-us/lifestyle/lifestyle-buzz/arnold-schwarzenegger-donated-25-tiny-homes-to-homeless-veterans-and-their-pets/ar-AAS9Nt2

The Bolsheviks have a point though, to count on the charity of private individuals who profited largely by opportunities, safety, infrastructure and education a country has provided seems like hoping for the Santa to come and bring you an ton of gold.

The tiny homes are good, restructuring and some reforms might have been better. I could imagine alimony often feels more like a spit in your face than anything.  ::)
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: AzCal Retred on December 29, 2021, 07:11:47 pm
" The Bolsheviks have a point though, to count on the charity of private individuals who profited largely by opportunities, safety, infrastructure and education a country has provided seems like hoping for the Santa to come and bring you an ton of gold. "
In 1917 it was highly unlikely that Tsarist Capitalists would voluntarily restructure their economy to better suit the needs of the general population. If by "Bolsheviks" in the current year of 2021 you mean the Alt-Reich, which are the only major group that are espousing radical political views, they seem to be more bent on constructing an alternate reality to justify their aggressive behavior. A great many of the folks buying in to Alt-Reich BS seem to be upper-middle-class, intent on not letting anyone else get a chance to move up. That's irrational as they are nowhere near the economic level of the folks that actually run the show. It's another case of contact magic or imitative magic, where pretending to be something leads to the actualization of that fantasy.

Reforms? How about stopping the transfer of massive generational wealth. Why should an accident of birth allow you to start out life with millions of dollars? How is that reasonable or desirable to society as a whole? At best you should be allowed an education and some seed money, maybe one years median salary for your country. You then go on to prove your worth by individual effort, not by dragging a "biggo box of Daddys money" around. Even starting with seed money gives you a considerable advantage. The continuous, absurd whining about the "Death Tax" where you actually get taxed on inheritance above $5M is unbelievable. How many people does it actually apply to, and how is it even a problem to be taxed on "free money" over $5M USD? If the idea is to concentrate wealth, we're so there. Breaking the chain puts that cash back into general circulation, "floating all boats" as it were. If a person starts life with a paid-off college degree and a years worth of income and fails, that's a personal problem. Being born into wealth doesn't make you superior, or competent, just lucky. Do you want your society run by dilettantes or folks that have some skin in the game?
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: GlennF on January 05, 2022, 05:27:38 am
You can now get booked on your E-bike by an E-patrol-car ...

https://www.drive.com.au/news/new-york-orders-ford-mustang-mach-e-police-cars

https://cleantechnica.com/2021/10/28/ford-mustang-mach-e-is-first-ev-to-get-a-michigan-state-police-pursuit-rating/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-zsEh038bLo

(https://cleantechnica.com/files/2021/10/Police-Testing-Mach-E-e1635319994355-2048x707.jpg)
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: AzCal Retred on January 05, 2022, 07:25:00 am
Shocking! If you get stopped a second time, do you get recharged? If you bump into the Police EV, is that a case of battery? If the cops are non-binary, does that make it an AC/DC cruiser? Enquiring minds need to know... :o

This is awesome. A little duct tape on the license plate & you are home free. All you need to do is either run hard for 20 minutes or 20 miles, then watch as they coast to a stop & wait for the "Jump-Truck", likely an old rusted out motorhome with a 454 & big generator in the back. Sweet... I wonder if they'll catch fire after a high speed run like the V10 Viper Chrysler sports cars? It takes a whole lotta amperes to make 250-300 HP in pursuit. The winter road salt won't be kind to the under hood electronics either.
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: Richard230 on January 05, 2022, 02:08:28 pm
Shocking! If you get stopped a second time, do you get recharged? If you bump into the Police EV, is that a case of battery? If the cops are non-binary, does that make it an AC/DC cruiser? Enquiring minds need to know... :o

This is awesome. A little duct tape on the license plate & you are home free. All you need to do is either run hard for 20 minutes or 20 miles, then watch as they coast to a stop & wait for the "Jump-Truck", likely an old rusted out motorhome with a 454 & big generator in the back. Sweet... I wonder if they'll catch fire after a high speed run like the V10 Viper Chrysler sports cars? It takes a whole lotta amperes to make 250-300 HP in pursuit. The winter road salt won't be kind to the under hood electronics either.


 ;D
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: Richard230 on January 05, 2022, 07:10:57 pm
How about a Cake scooter designed for the delivery of stacks of pizza boxes: https://thepack.news/cake-at-ces-2022-us-introduction-of-cake-work-series-of-electric-motorbikes-for-last-mile-delivery-many-and-other-professional-applications/
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: AzCal Retred on January 06, 2022, 03:12:59 am
There's room there for a Pre-Unit 4 speed box so the motor wouldn't need to put out max power at zero RPM with no fan cooling.
Just for fun, the cheap  3-5 HP AC VFD units have an internal DC power bus component. By stacking batteries you could drive a 240 or 480 AC VFD, putting out 3 phase power, so a standard 3-phase, 5HP off the shelf motor would work fine. A transmission allows the motor to normally operate between 50% to 150% of rated speed, functionally doable with off-the-shelf motors. 240V worth of batteries gets you into Tesla Supercharger territory, so likely a 5-10 minute pump-up period on a small bike. ABB and many others have "cheap" VFDs available. That CAKE "Tote-Goat" would be a nice platform layout, easy to modify or replicate in mild steel & with off the shelf minibike bits. There are many yard appliance batteries that make 40 - 70 VDC now, so that shouldn't be too hard to sort. Throttle is a cheap rheostat, most VFDs have LOTS of tricky engine braking functions, even reverse. A 480VDC minibike anyone?
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: Richard230 on January 06, 2022, 02:07:40 pm
There's room there for a Pre-Unit 4 speed box so the motor wouldn't need to put out max power at zero RPM with no fan cooling.
Just for fun, the cheap  3-5 HP AC VFD units have an internal DC power bus component. By stacking batteries you could drive a 240 or 480 AC VFD, putting out 3 phase power, so a standard 3-phase, 5HP off the shelf motor would work fine. A transmission allows the motor to normally operate between 50% to 150% of rated speed, functionally doable with off-the-shelf motors. 240V worth of batteries gets you into Tesla Supercharger territory, so likely a 5-10 minute pump-up period on a small bike. ABB and many others have "cheap" VFDs available. That CAKE "Tote-Goat" would be a nice platform layout, easy to modify or replicate in mild steel & with off the shelf minibike bits. There are many yard appliance batteries that make 40 - 70 VDC now, so that shouldn't be too hard to sort. Throttle is a cheap rheostat, most VFDs have LOTS of tricky engine braking functions, even reverse. A 480VDC minibike anyone?

There were a few electric scooter companies that have developed automated battery exchange stations that were being used in some densely packed Taiwan and South Korean cities a few years ago. I don't know if they remain in business.

About a year ago I saw a report and video about another electric scooter startup company in a South American city that planned to have their battery exchange system integrated with a few established gas station operations around town where depleted batteries could be exchanged by the station attendants with fully charged ones. I also don't know how this business turned out. A lot of these companies have good ideas that just don't financially pan out after a couple of years - if that.  ???
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: AzCal Retred on January 06, 2022, 06:55:23 pm
Looks like a fuel cell "Hybrid"; the small FC recharges real time usage-demand batteries.

eCargo hydrogen fuel cell bikes to begin real-world test in Aberdeen ; January 6, 2022
https://mail.google.com/mail/u/0/?tab=rm&ogbl#inbox/FMfcgzGmtNbPdKZjbhzXcLkjKSpNlmhN
The H2 vehicle to be used in this testing period, called the EVAH2Cubed eCargo bike, work the fuel cell directly into the powertrain. The electricity generated through that process is stored in a small number of batteries. The process creates only water as its emission. Therefore, provided that green H2 is used as the vehicle’s fuel, it can be considered to be greenhouse gas emission-free.

https://eav.solutions/

https://eav.solutions/ecargo/

EAV Promo video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VsSm76ktC7A

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/move-electric/hydrogen-fuel-cell-cargo-bikes-be-trialled-aberdeen
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: viczena on January 08, 2022, 06:28:23 pm
Hydrogen is dead. Meanwhile also Hyundai stopped all H2 development.
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: AzCal Retred on January 08, 2022, 07:12:30 pm
Are you on drugs or just trolling? Only German car makers are minimizing H2 as a viable fuel, actual auto producers are all over it.

https://www.hyundaiusa.com/us/en/vehicles/nexo

https://automobiles.honda.com/clarity-fuel-cell

https://www.toyota.com/mirai/

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/06/21/by-land-sea-and-air-gm-to-expand-fuel-cell-business-beyond-evs.html

https://fuelcellsworks.com/news/kias-first-hydrogen-electric-vehicle-is-military-hydrogen-fueled-electric-vehicle/
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: viczena on January 08, 2022, 09:36:20 pm
Maybe you should stop drinking blue colour.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/michaeltaylor/2021/12/31/hyundai-freezes-third-gen-hydrogen-fuel-cell-ev-development/?sh=412990f13588

https://thedriven.io/2021/06/23/honda-discontinues-clarity-hydrogen-fuel-cell-and-plug-in-hybrid/

https://gmauthority.com/blog/2020/07/gm-not-planning-hydrogen-powered-consumer-vehicles-for-the-time-being/

https://thekoreancarblog.com/2021/09/09/kias-first-hydrogen-vehicle-wont-arrive-till-2028/

Only Toyata is still involved. In the false hope they could afford to pass EVs. That also changed recently.
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: AzCal Retred on January 09, 2022, 12:05:55 am
Maybe you need to climb out of the dark pit of despair & nihilism. Enjoy the blue news. Nobody needs an oil well to make H2, there's always that. If the idea is to decarbonize, H2 can get you there, your country isn't an energy hostage. H2 provides a mechanism to store in-country produced renewables cheaply. There is a price to be paid when you depend on a 3rd party for your energy, especially one that may not have your best interests in mind.

https://www.caranddriver.com/hyundai/nexo
2022 Hyundai Nexo
As the sole hydrogen-powered SUV, the Hyundai Nexo is in a class of its own

https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1132633_honda-clarity-plug-in-hybrid-is-gone-after-2021-but-clarity-fuel-cell-will-linger-into-2022

https://pressroom.toyota.com/zero-emissions-in-style-2022-toyota-mirai-pricing-announced/

https://www.forbes.com/wheels/news/gm-enters-fuel-cell-business-power-navistar-trucks/
Updated: Oct 4, 2021 -  GM’s plan to go all-electric will rely primarily on battery technology, there is growing interest in hydrogen power, especially by established manufacturers like Hyundai and Toyota, as well as start-ups such as Nikola Corp., since fuel-cells offer a number of potential advantage for use in heavy-duty trucks, starting with longer range.
“Hydrogen fuel cells offer great promise for heavy-duty trucks in applications requiring a higher density of energy, fast refueling and additional range,” Navistar Chief Executive Persio Lisboa said this week as he announced plans to bring the new International RH Series of fuel-cell trucks to market during the 2024 model-year.

https://www.hydrogencarsnow.com/index.php/ford-focus-fcv/

https://www.reliableplant.com/Read/4219/ford-rolls-out-plug-in-hybrid-with-hydrogen-fuel-cell

https://www.hydrogencarsnow.com/index.php/ford-super-chief-truck/#:~:text=The%20tri%2Dflex%20fueling%20system,of%20torque.
Ford F-250 Super Chief Tri-Flex Fuel Truck
Since the day Henry Ford introduced the Model A, the world discovered a love affair with the open road. Until now, that open road has meant the mass consumption of fossil fuels.
The Ford Company recently rolled out a prototype truck that provides a reason for a whole new generation to rejoice. The Ford F-250 Super Chief is a prototype that takes the best of nostalgic design features and blends them with the world’s first Tri-Flex capabilities that allow drivers to utilize their fuel of choice.
Ford Super Chief F-250 Tri-Flex Fuel Pickup Truck
Ford designers have introduced a new supercharged v-10 engine with a tri-flex fueling system that allows users to enjoy a choice of three different fuels including gasoline, E85 ethanol or hydrogen. Because the Super Chief offers these choices drivers have the comfort of knowing they can still find fuel as the ethanol and hydrogen infrastructures are developing. In a tri-flex fueling system owners can utilize any or all of these fueling options using the same engine and only the flip of a switch.
The tri-flex fueling system on the Ford F-250 Super Chief allows operators to go 500 miles between total refueling with the supercharger activated only when using the hydrogen fueling system. The hydrogen system also provides 400 lb.-ft. of torque.

https://www.motor1.com/news/523654/h2x-warrego-ford-ranger-fcev/
More than a year ago, H2X announced its aim to put Australia on the map when it comes to producing hydrogen fuel-cell EVs. With a lineup consisting of a van, minibus, tractor, and SUV, H2X wants to put one of these emission-free vehicles on the road by July 2021.
Obviously, that didn't happen because of funding woes but that doesn't mean H2X Australia is out of the picture. Now back as H2X Global with funding coming from Liberty Energy Capital, the firm introduces its first vehicle, the Warrego, based on the T6 Ford Ranger but with no direct harmful effect on the environment.
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: viczena on January 09, 2022, 12:19:36 am
Ford also rolled out the F-150 Lightning. A BEV and they cannot produce enough for the demand.

The first 15 BEV Semi trucks from Tesla are deliverd this month to Pepsi.

GM sold all their 2022 production of the electric silverado within 10 minutes

And these are no prototypes to cash in subsidies. These are real sales of existing vehicles, no prototypes, no aim, no plan, no promise, no rejoice, no announcement.

Just Toyota is selling the Mirai. If you want to order, you get the following message: "Out of Stock. But not out of reach.
Right now this vehicle isn't available in your region. Contact your dealer for more information." 

Climb out of your red and blue H2 pit. Your news are no news, just worthless squack.

BTW: Storing H2 is very expensive and has a high loss. The production of H2 is also expensive and not very efficient.
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: AzCal Retred on January 09, 2022, 05:22:25 am
" Storing H2 is very expensive and has a high loss. The production of H2 is also expensive and not very efficient. "

Let's see. Electricity off peak is anywhere from 1/3rd to 1/20th of peak rates. The P2G round robin cycle is presently around 40%. 100MW of 3AM wind power at $30 per MWHr is worth $3000. 40MW at 2PM is worth $300/MWHr, $12,000. 12K > 3K, yes? What option do you think wind & solar producers would choose if they had storage?

H2 stores in oil wells & salt domes just like natural gas. If they were that leaky, there wouldn't be any gas left underground. Using existing storage is cheap. Building special cryogenic or high pressure storage is not.

GM is building H2 fuel cells. I know that's uncomfortable for you, but even they know batteries are too limited for real work.
https://www.gmhydrotec.com/product/public/us/en/hydrotec/Home.html

The only squawk here is from a guy that won't believe that others can do what he cannot. Germany has demo P2G installations at Falkenhagen. IF Batteries had the energy density and longevity of chemical energy it would be a different story, but they don't. For short haul application they work OK, for 300-600 miles, or even 1200 miles, not so much. That's why GM is using fuel cells in long haul trucks. It's faster to "gas up" than recharge a battery. Freight won't wait.
Utilities like batteries because they have a lifespan and need to be replaced at intervals. It's all about the Capital Spend rate of return. Existing piping into an oil well or salt dome lasts  a very long time and is relatively cheap to replace when finally needed.

https://www.reuters.com/markets/commodities/germany-approves-900-mln-euros-green-hydrogen-project-2021-12-23/
https://fuelcellsworks.com/news/hydrogen-levels-in-german-gas-distribution-system-to-be-raised-to-20-percent-for-the-first-time/https://www.powermag.com/windgas-falkenhagen-pioneering-green-gas-production/
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: viczena on January 09, 2022, 08:12:45 am
When you generate H2 by electrolyse, you lose 50% of the energy at once. Take in some losses of the process, you are at an efficiency of around 42% max. Then comes the losses of pumping and cooling and transporting the H2. Another 10%. And in the car the fuel cell just works with 30% efficiency.

If you store the electricity in large battery banks, you just loose 2%. Another 2% for transport.

Thats the difference. And dont forget that a plant that generates H2 needs constant energy, as it is a continuous process. It does not like On/Off, it is expensive and slow to start the process of generating H2 before it runs. ZigZag electricity from Wind or Solar is exact what these plants dont want.

If you pump H2 in salt or through pipelines, the losses are enormeous. And the H2 destroys the pipeline steel and all seals.

And GM does not use fuel cells. They are just playing with prototypes, gathering subsidies. Like anybody else did until they stopped this foolness.

So just more marketing squack, promises, visions, wannabees. Knowledge is something else than gathering some links with google and painting them blue.

BTW: In your world trucks seem to run 1200 miles per day? The Tesla Semi can drive 500miles. It can charge while load/unload. And after 8 hours drive the drivers have to rest for at least an hour. Enough to recharge the truck with the Megacharger. Using electricity is much cheaper per mile than Gas/diesel. And the lower maintenance costs are a good add on. No need for any costly and inefficient H2.
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: Richard230 on January 09, 2022, 02:00:32 pm
The other problem with H2 is what do you do when you build a station at great cost and then no one wants to operate it and no one wants to use it?
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: viczena on January 09, 2022, 04:28:57 pm
Correct. Around 1/3 of all installed hydrogen stations are out of order. And nobody cares.
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: AzCal Retred on January 09, 2022, 05:46:05 pm
@ #391: " Thats the difference. And dont forget that a plant that generates H2 needs constant energy, as it is a continuous process. It does not like On/Off, it is expensive and slow to start the process of generating H2 before it runs. ZigZag electricity from Wind or Solar is exact what these plants dont want. If you pump H2 in salt or through pipelines, the losses are enormeous. And the H2 destroys the pipeline steel and all seals. "
You don't really know how the Grid operates. You also choose to ignore history & research on H2 blending with natgas & other fuel gasses. "zigzag power" is what P2G mitigates by normalizing load & providing market opportunities. You also don't seem to understand how salt domes are used to store natgas & H2. If H2 ate all seals & containers, how can you explain the existing commercial above ground H2 storage systems with thousands of steel tanks, valves, piping, tubing & seals? These things set out the in the weather for years and don't dissolve. As far as pumping thru pipelines, what exactly do you thing the natgas folks are doing? As far as electrolyzer efficiency, I like actual researched sources, not ax-grinding vitriol. I already told you that round-trip P2G efficiency is about 40%, but as the "fuel is free" for PV & Wind, and we're talking off-peak demand times, so what? Use it somewhere or it's gone. How smart is it really for Germany to depend on Putin & Gazprom? Do you want that worthy to be in control of your economy?

https://www.gazprom.com/projects/germany/

https://www.forbes.com/sites/davekeating/2018/07/19/how-dependent-is-germany-on-russian-gas/?sh=64c41193b489
But in 2015 Germany imported 35% of its gas from Russia. About the same amount, 34%, came from Norway. 29% came from The Netherlands.
But there is reason to believe that the Russian proportion will go up. Germany is the world’s biggest natural gas importer, having to bring 92% of the gas it consumes in from outside the country. The few gas fields that Germany has will likely be completely depleted within the next decade
But looking only at gas gives a distorted impression of Germany’s energy mix, because gas accounts for only around 23% of Germany’s primary energy use. Germany also gets its energy from nuclear, renewables, coal and oil – little of which comes from Russia.
Germany gets its nuclear and coal energy domestically. But Chancellor Angela Merkel has vowed to phase out both of those energy sources within the next decade. The country has an ambitious renewable energy expansion program in place called the Energiewende which is designed to replace those energy sources with solar and wind. But sceptics say it is more likely to be replaced by Russian gas – hence the economic imperative of the new Nord Stream II pipeline which Trump criticised at the NATO summit.


https://www.nrel.gov/docs/fy13osti/51995.pdf

https://www.carboncommentary.com/blog/2017/7/5/hydrogen-made-by-the-electrolysis-of-water-is-now-cost-competitive-and-gives-us-another-building-block-for-the-low-carbon-economy#:~:text=Very%20roughly%2C%20a%20new%20electrolysis,reforming%20is%20around%2065%25%20efficient.
Very roughly, a new electrolysis plant today delivers energy efficiency of around 80%. That is, the energy value of the hydrogen produced is about 80% of the electricity used to split the water molecule. Steam reforming is around 65% efficient.
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: derottone on January 09, 2022, 06:53:28 pm

Germany gets its nuclear and coal energy domestically. But Chancellor Angela Merkel has vowed to phase out both of those energy sources within the next decade. The country has an ambitious renewable energy expansion program in place called the Energiewende which is designed to replace those energy sources with solar and wind. But sceptics say it is more likely to be replaced by Russian gas – hence the economic imperative of the new Nord Stream II pipeline which Trump criticised at the


Who would possibly know what moved Merkel to any decisions? In Europe the wind blows sometimes from the West than from the East. Maybe she just wanted to do the american petrol heads a favour, shutting down coal and nuclear power would make the electric mobility a lesser viable option? - side effects left asside as always.
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: AzCal Retred on January 09, 2022, 09:04:50 pm
@ #395: Well spoken - strategic decisions aren't generally broadcast. In the USA we don't need to, because as far as I can tell there isn't any strategic plan, we just do whatever the industry lobbyists tell us to do.  :(

H2 blending at 10% to 15% seems generally regarded as safe, and 20% mixes have been used in the past with minimal leakage & end user concerns. The NREL study talks about this, but every country has no doubt looked at it. Somewhere in this mess of back & forth I saw the 20% number mentioned for German efforts. Why this isn't problematic I can't say, maybe the small H2 molecules spend more time slaloming between the CH4 molecules than pressed against the steel casing leaking out. Maybe the CH4 tends to bond them enough that they tend to stay put, I dunno, that's a job for the Chemistry & Physics wizards to explain. All I can say is that across the board intellects "vast, cool & unsympathetic" have kept arriving at these same numbers over time. Being able to supplement 20% of your stored natgas with domestic production H2 seems like a good thing if some "furrin' asso" decides to put the screws to you & squeeze off your natgas supply. Blending provides renewable energy storage, so if you intend to go all renewable and not shut off the lights at night you need to store energy. The current HRSG generation facility plants that we already have sited & operational can produce an amazing 60% reconversion efficiency, on par with fuel cells, especially during cold weather when the Heat Rate is low (BTU/KWH) because the condenser efficiency is higher. More "suck" in the condenser means less turbine backpressure, which means the Delta P across the turbine is higher for the same fuel burn. More zoomies out for less fuel in. Going pure H2 is a different ballgame, but just blending H2/natgas 10% to 20% is low hanging fruit and provides ready made Utility grade renewable energy storage.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat_rate_(efficiency)

https://www.vng-gasspeicher.de/en/storage_types
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: viczena on January 09, 2022, 09:22:30 pm
Blended H2 gas is nothing new. Germany had this in their piplines in the 50/60/70 years. It was called "Grubengas". Because it was gathered form the coalmines and transported in pipelines to the households to cook and heat. After the colapse of the coal industry it was replaced by natural gas.

But this blended H2 is just useless for cars. And if you have to produce the H2 (and not just get it as an addon from coalmines), it makes the heating use of the gas more than double as expensive.
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: derottone on January 09, 2022, 09:23:44 pm
I don't know about the storage of H2, viczena makes lot of sense there. However, i remember someone talking about using all that abundant nuclear and cole power to create methan - ch4. First by creating h2 than using the co2 from the atmosphere to create ch4 + 2o2, or something like that. Don't remember the source, however storing methan might be a lot easier than h2. All that process is probably not very efficient though and might be interesting only if you've got a lot of energy to vaste. Well you could take that energy that's used for crypto mining for example, might do it.  ;D
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: viczena on January 09, 2022, 09:27:58 pm
Methane is easier to store and use. Much easier. But it is also very expensive to produce, compared to primary energy sources. Most of methane production in the world is done by the petrochemical industry.

Tesla tries to build a methane factory in small scale which is easily transportable, that produces methane (and O2) out of CO2 and Water. This device will produce  liquid fuel for their starships. Price does not matter in this case.

BTW: When was the last time you saw "abundant" nuclear and cole power?
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: derottone on January 09, 2022, 09:33:29 pm
BTW: When was the last time you saw "abundant" nuclear and cole power?

It's been always priced and taxes as much as the market could bear, under any regime.  ;)
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: AzCal Retred on January 10, 2022, 04:55:10 am
Nuclear & coal energy is not renewable energy. Pitchblende & Coal are mined, whatever energy that's in them is fixed.
Converting stored Nuclear or Coal energy to another form of stored energy is wasteful.
PV converts sunlight to electron flow as long as the sun light strikes the panel. Panel service life can run from 20 to 80 years, with efficiency dropping to 80% of new after 25 years. There's no actual maintenance associated with PV other than occasional cleaning.
Wind turbines are mechanical devices, so there is wear & maintenance. The consensus seems to be a 25 year life span is "normal".
As long as you have "surplus" energy, carbon & hydrogen, you can build any hydrocarbon you want with modern tech.
Hydrogen is easily electrolyzed from water and can be used directly as fuel, chemical feedstock, or blended to increase BTU content & reduce CO2 emissions of natgas.
Fossil generation is used to stabilize the grid as "baseload" because it's predictable. Using off-peak renewable capacity for H2 production normalizes grid loading and provides storage of an intermittent energy source. Rather than having 1000 MW of wind offline because of resource scheduling, it can be used for H2 production in blending or cavern storage application. Frequency & load are controlled & coordinated by the grid coordinating body of the country you are in. Weekend PV is excess of required need can likewise be used, again controlled by the appropriate grid coordinating body.  Germany already has cavern storage, you just need some commercially available electrolyzers.
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: viczena on January 10, 2022, 05:07:33 am
It is expensive and inefficient to produce H2 with electricity. It is an easy process, but the machinery you need are expensive and and quite sensitive. The expense for keeping this production safe is also enourmous.

Storing H2 in caverns is also not an easy task. In germany they now built a test cavern for that purpose. They use 160 steel pipes down to 1000m deep. Not knowing if this construction will even last.

Surplus energy is much cheaper and lot more efficiently stored in battery packs. No need for H2 at all.
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: AzCal Retred on January 10, 2022, 04:38:18 pm
You aren't really getting this. Natgas & H2 storage has been done in developed salt domes/"caverns" for a very long time. The access piping is already there, the cavern is already there. I've already demonstrated how the differential between peak & off peak pricing can financially drive the process. The beauty of P2G & H2 blending is that you get to use your existing generation "for free", no mountain of rotting batteries needed, no new large scale multi-megawatt inverter stations needed. Germanys salt caverns won't wear out. Your HRSG plants can if need be even run on pure H2 with proper modifications. Batteries are a very pricy way to store energy compared to cavern storage of gas.

Batteries here are used as peakers, their output is sold at maximum price during heavy demand and there isn't much of it to sell. All of the hundreds of millions of dollars worth of batteries in California could support the grid for maybe 15 minutes out of a 24 hour day during high usage times, which they can't because there isn't enough attached inverter capacity to drive it. Blending allows renewables to add up to 15%-20% to the stored energy gas supply directly as fuel and conversion happens with existing generation hardware. Even with electrolyzer inefficiencies, RE producers can see a better RoR any time Peak vs. Off Peak rate differential exceeds about 2.5:1, which it normally does. That's what will drive the process. 

https://www.vng-gasspeicher.de/en/storage_types
" Our cavern storage facilities are manmade, hollow spaces which have been created in underground salt deposits. We drill into the deposits, dissolve the salt present using water and transport it above ground. What remains is a cylindrical cavity with a diameter of up to 100 meters and a height between 50 and 500 meters. These caverns are located hundreds of meters below the earth's surface – in Germany as deep as 2.5 km below the surface. The thickness of the salt domes and their properties guarantee the caverns' natural impermeability making additional linings, such as those needed in stone caverns created by other types of mining, unnecessary. "
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: viczena on January 10, 2022, 05:22:04 pm
But you understand (or you dont, as usual?) that we speak about storing pure H2? Not the 10% mix which can only be used for heating?

Storing pure H2 in caverns is an enormous and expensive task. And makes the gas for household heating double in price, if the H2 is not comming from coal mines..

And because you seem to love to recite german google: https://www.ewe.com/de/presse/pressemitteilungen/2020/12/ewe-bernimmt-bei-wasserstoffspeicherung-vorreiterrolle-ewe-ag

They now build the first test cavern for H2. 500 cubikmeter (a single family home), needs around 2 years to build, costs over 10 Mill Euros. All paid by the taxpayer. Of Course.

This cavern can stor 5 tons of H2, The amount that a single H2 converter in the petrochemie produces in one hour.
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: viczena on January 10, 2022, 08:48:12 pm
Just some calculation for the H2 cavern they build now. 5t of H2 equals 150MWh. You need 400MWh to produce it. They intend to use 15 Wind turbines to produce the H2. Every one of them has 1Mw power.

So all 15 turbines together have to run 27h full power to fill the reservoir. So in reality four days of good wind. Just producing for the cavern.

If you use the H2 in cars, the efficiency is 30%. So you can use 50 MWh in the cars. So you produced 400MWh just to deliver 50MWh.

If you want to backup 50MWh in Tesla megapacks today, it would cost you around 19 Mill Euros. Less than the cavern and the H2 producing facility. And with much less maintenance costs (around 60k Euros/year). And it is the price of today, batteries get cheaper every year. The turbines can fill the battery pack 8 times faster.

And no environmental survey needed. No danger zone. No 24/7 security staff. H2 is quite explosive. Remember the Hindenburg desaster or Fukushima. You need large salt deposits in the earth if you want to build a cavern. Rather rare occasion.
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: GlennF on January 10, 2022, 11:09:46 pm
H2 was actually the propulsion for both the second and third stages of the Saturn V Apollo moon landing rockets:

https://www.space.com/18422-apollo-saturn-v-moon-rocket-nasa-infographic.html

https://www.nasa.gov/pdf/513855main_ASK_41s_explosive.pdf
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: viczena on January 11, 2022, 04:41:38 am
These lunatics even used liquid H2 in very large quantities. Real big cochones.

"Hydrogen has a very broad flammability range—a
4 percent to 74 percent concentration in air and 4 percent to
94 percent in oxygen; therefore, keeping air or oxygen from
mixing with hydrogen inside confined spaces is very important.
Also, it requires only 0.02 millijoules of energy to ignite the
hydrogen–air mixture, which is less than 7 percent of the energy
needed to ignite natural gas"
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: GlennF on January 11, 2022, 04:46:31 am
These lunatics even used liquid H2 in very large quantities. Real big cochones.

In terms of the Saturn V  " ... the second stage carries 260,000 gallons (984,000 liters) of liquid hydrogen fuel and 80,000 gallons (303,000 liters) of liquid oxygen ... " :D


Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: Richard230 on January 11, 2022, 02:11:08 pm
In terms of the Saturn V  " ... the second stage carries 260,000 gallons (984,000 liters) of liquid hydrogen fuel and 80,000 gallons (303,000 liters) of liquid oxygen ... " :D

That is a lot of very cold liquid.  :o
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: AzCal Retred on January 13, 2022, 11:55:36 pm
The corporate bean counters of Air Liquide, a major multinational commercial business, chose the cheapest most functional method to store pure H2! :o They simply followed what 100 years of industrial history told them already worked, who knew?

https://www.airliquide.com/sites/airliquide.com/files/2017/01/03/usa-air-liquide-operates-the_world-s-largest-hydrogen-storage-facility.pdf
Paris, January 3, 2017
www.airliquide.com
Follow us on Twitter @airliquidegroup
USA: Air Liquide operates the world’s largest hydrogen storage facility
Air Liquide has recently commissioned the largest hydrogen storage facility in the world, an underground cavern in Beaumont, Texas, in the Gulf Coast region of the U.S.
This unique hydrogen storage cavern complements Air Liquide’s robust supply capabilities along the Gulf Coast, offering greater flexibility and reliable hydrogen supply solutions to customers via Air Liquide’s extensive Gulf Coast Pipeline System.
The underground storage cavern is 1,500 meters deep and nearly 70 meters in diameter. The facility is capable of holding enough hydrogen to back up a large-scale steam methane reformer (SMR) unit for 30 days. Hydrogen is typically reformed from natural gas, since it is present in very small quantity in the air. As such, it is of great benefit to have a large, interconnected storage solution to optimize supply to customers reliably and efficiently. Hydrogen is used in the refining process to desulfurize fuels and in a number of other industrial and manufacturing processes.
Hydrogen’s environmentally sustainable benefits go beyond its industrial applications. As clean energy, hydrogen used for mobility powers fuel cell vehicles with zero emissions, and can be stored and used to help manage electric grid demand.
This new hydrogen cavern follows the commissioning of Air Liquide’s first pure helium storage facility in Germany in July 2016. These initiatives illustrate Air Liquide’s innovative technologies and engineering capabilities to provide a reliable supply chain.


https://industry.airliquide.us/air-liquide-welcomes-us-secretary-energy-jennifer-granholm-its-porte-tx-hydrogen-facility
Air Liquide Welcomes U.S. Secretary of Energy Jennifer Granholm to Its La Porte, TX Hydrogen Facility
News | May 27, 2021
Secretary Granholm’s first official travel outside of Washington, D.C. since her confirmation as Secretary of Energy earlier this year.  Secretary Granholm’s visit will include a briefing on Air Liquide’s innovation and investments in the advancement of hydrogen, a tour of the La Porte facility and the opportunity to meet with employees.
The La Porte Industrial Complex, which was commissioned in 2011, produces gaseous hydrogen and steam-generated electrical power.  It is Air Liquide’s largest hydrogen production facility in the U.S., capable of producing up to 125 million cubic feet per day.  The La Porte facility is connected to Air Liquide’s extensive hydrogen pipeline network, which totals more than 200 miles and includes our 3 billion cubic feet hydrogen storage cavern.
“We are honored to welcome Secretary Granholm to the Air Liquide La Porte Industrial Complex, an  anchor of our Hydrogen Production System on the Gulf Coast,” said Mike Graff, Chairman & CEO of American Air Liquide Holdings, Inc. “Hydrogen is essential for the transition to a low-carbon energy economy. While creating thousands of American jobs, hydrogen will help transform the current energy system by providing a reliable, affordable, secure and versatile low-carbon energy source. We look forward to continuing our decades-long partnership with the U.S. Department of Energy and are encouraged by this Administration’s support for advancing private investment and accelerating the deployment of low-carbon and renewable hydrogen. Air Liquide shares the Administration’s commitment to ensuring hydrogen plays a critical role in the Clean Energy Transition as the U.S. continues its energy leadership in the 21st century.”


https://www.cnbc.com/2020/11/01/how-salt-caverns-may-trigger-11-trillion-hydrogen-energy-boom-.html#:~:text=Caverns%20can%20be%20created%20in,water%2C%20which%20dissolves%20the%20salt.&text=Hydrogen%20electrolyzers%20can%20convert%20water,reconverted%20to%20electricity%20when%20needed.
Storing fuel in salt caverns isn’t new, but hydrogen’s growing role in decarbonization has revitalized interest in the concept. The U.S. Strategic Petroleum Reserve has long stored emergency crude oil in underground salt caverns on the Gulf Coast, and notes they cost 10 times less than aboveground tanks and 20 times less than hard rock mines. The Reserve has 60 enormous caverns, typically 200 feet in diameter and 2,500 feet tall, and one “large enough for Chicago’s Willis Tower to fit inside with room to spare.”
Caverns can be created in salt domes by drilling into the salt dome and injecting the rock with water, which dissolves the salt. The resulting brine is extracted, leaving a large cavity. The next step is storing hydrogen in the cavern. Hydrogen electrolyzers can convert water into hydrogen by using renewable energy from solar and other sources. The hydrogen can then be stored, and reconverted to electricity when needed.












Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: GlennF on January 14, 2022, 12:24:17 am
That is a lot of very cold liquid.  :o

Probably the main reason that United did not purchase a fleet of Saturn V boosters for Moon Landing tourism and sight seeing operations
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: viczena on January 14, 2022, 01:21:49 am
@410: Again you do what you do best: Just recite some google links without really understanding anything (same as CNBC). The desastrous inefficiencys dont change if you make H2 caverns larger.

Air liquide uses this cavern to store H2 for their methane production, that is on site. It is a buffer storage for their production. Nothing more. The hydrogen itself is generated by a generator which transforms natural gas. These giants can produce up to 9t of hydrogen per hour.

So just as a buffer in the production the inefficiencys dont matter. They are paid for by the product: Methane. Which is 4 times as expensive as Diesel, if you would use it as a propellant for vehicles (as methanol).

As a buffer to store energy the H2 caverns are completely foolish.
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: AzCal Retred on January 14, 2022, 04:02:35 am
And again you fail completely open when presented with evidence contrary to your mantra. Renewable energy is intermittent, it needs to be harvested when it happens, it cannot be mined or pumped as needed. Storage makes capture and later utilization possible.

The CNBC article talks about RE production curtailment:
“California curtailed between 150,000-300,000 MWh of excess renewable energy per month through the spring of 2020, yet saw its first rolling blackouts in August because the grid was short on energy,” says Paul Browning, CEO of Mitsubishi Power Americas."
All of that lost capacity could have been converted & stored. Curtailment guaranteed that it was lost. Conversion electrolyzers and cavern/well storage are the tools needed.

You also seem to be confused about what Air Liquide is actually doing. Methane (CH4) from oil wells is "reformed" to strip off the H2, they aren't making & storing methane. This is "blue hydrogen", a darling of the petro folks. The article clearly states that the Air Liquide salt cavern is storing hydrogen.
https://www.airliquide.com/sites/airliquide.com/files/2017/01/03/usa-air-liquide-operates-the_world-s-largest-hydrogen-storage-facility.pdf
The underground storage cavern is 1,500 meters deep and nearly 70 meters in diameter. The facility is capable of holding enough hydrogen to back up a large-scale steam methane reformer (SMR) unit for 30 days. Hydrogen is typically reformed from natural gas.
https://www.energy.gov/eere/fuelcells/hydrogen-production-natural-gas-reforming

As Germany is at the mercy of Russian gas supplies, I don't see your hesitation to try to remediate that. Curtailed or off peak renewables can be stored if you have the equipment. Having the Russians control your economy could have very bad consequences. A good argument can be made that opposing storage of domestically sourced H2 is more of a pro-Russian stance; Germany needs to have ready energy alternatives. You aren't going to start up a "mothballed" coal or nuke plant in a usefully short timeframe. It's clear that salt cavern storage of H2 is valid and economic. It's also clear that storing low cost energy that is otherwise lost is a matter of national energy security. Germany doesn't have a Texas to fall back on.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nord_Stream
Nord Stream (former names: North Transgas and North European Gas Pipeline; Russian: Северный поток, Severny potok) is a system of offshore natural gas pipelines in Europe, running under the Baltic Sea from Russia to Germany.
The Nord Stream projects have been fiercely opposed by the United States and Ukraine, as well as by other Central and Eastern European countries, because of concerns that the pipelines would increase Russia's influence in Europe, and because of the knock on reduction of transit fees for use of the existing pipelines in Central and Eastern European countries. The builders contend that the pipeline is more important to Germany than Russia, which could just as easily sell the gas to China and other Asian nations.


https://www.cnbc.com/2020/11/01/how-salt-caverns-may-trigger-11-trillion-hydrogen-energy-boom-.html#:~:text=Caverns%20can%20be%20created%20in,water%2C%20which%20dissolves%20the%20salt.&text=Hydrogen%20electrolyzers%20can%20convert%20water,reconverted%20to%20electricity%20when%20needed.
“The formation has the potential to create up to 100 caverns, each one capable of holding 150,000 MWh of energy,” says Browning. “It would take 40,000 shipping containers of batteries to store that much energy in each cavern.” 

European ambitions
Despite their storage potential, low operating cost and the fact that underground salt distribution is well known, only a handful of salt caverns have been created to store hydrogen. However, the concept is quickly gaining momentum in Europe, where the European Commission sees the share of hydrogen in Europe’s energy mix rising from under 2% as of 2019 to 13-14% by 2050.

Funded by the German government, the HYPOS alliance of over 100 companies and institutions aims to build a salt cavern in the Central German Chemical Triangle in Saxony-Anhalt with about 150,000 MWh of energy from wind power-generated hydrogen. Regulators are now reviewing the plans and when filling begins in 2023 or 2024, it could be continental Europe’s first hydrogen storage cavern, according to Stefan Bergander, a HYPOS project manager. Meanwhile, French gas utility Teréga and Hydrogène de France have agreed to launch the HyGéo pilot project in a disused salt cavern in southwestern France’s Nouvelle-Aquitaine region; it will store about 1.5 GWh of energy, enough for 400 households for a year.

“Underground storage, in salt caverns or in porous media (i.e., in aquifers or in depleted oil and gas fields) is the only way to cope with big storage capacities,” says Louis Londe, technical director at Geostock, a French company specializing in underground storage. “Many hydrogen cavern projects for energy storage are blooming in Europe. At present, they are at the design stage. Not surprisingly, the leading countries are those where salt is the most present: Germany, U.K., Ireland, France, Netherlands.”

Europe has enough salt formations on and offshore to theoretically store about 85 petawatt hours of hydrogen power, according to a study published this year in the International Journal of Hydrogen Energy. The figure is hypothetical, and doesn’t take economics into account, but for example, 1 PWh of hydrogen is enough to supply today’s electricity demand in Germany for an entire year, says Dilara Gulcin Caglayan, lead author of the study and a scientist at the German research center Forschungszentrum Jülich’s Institute of Energy and Climate Research

“Our calculations show that without implementation of hydrogen salt caverns, there’s no cost-optimal pathway to achieve our climate goals,” says the institute’s deputy director Martin Robinius, a coauthor of the study. “By 2040, we will need a lot of hydrogen salt caverns, but if we don’t start building them now, we won’t be able to build them to scale to meet those goals.”

As part of its goal to be climate-neutral by 2050, the European Commission recently produced a hydrogen roadmap saying rapid, large-scale deployment of clean hydrogen is key for the European Union to lower greenhouse gas emissions by at least half by 2030, adding that “Investment in hydrogen will foster sustainable growth and jobs, which will be critical in the context of recovery from the COVID-19 crisis.”

“The issue of storage is, of course, key to delivering energy transition and in this respect hydrogen and hydrogen technologies have a critical role to play,” says Jorgo Chatzimarkakis, secretary general of Hydrogen Europe, an alliance of about 250 companies and research organizations that has called for Covid-19 recovery investment of €55 billion ($65 billion) in salt cavern storage to 2030 to build hydrogen capacity of 3 million metric tons. “Large scale hydrogen storage facilities, mainly salt caverns and possibly some empty gas fields, need to be part of hydrogen infrastructure.”



Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: viczena on January 14, 2022, 05:16:24 am
It only shows that you are able to use cut & paste. Great. My 5 year old newphew is able to do the same.

Yes, alternative energies are Flip-.Flop. And the produce power shortages, as long as they are not buffered. But H2 is not appropriate for this task, as it is much too inefficient. And even today the adequate amount of battery storage is cheaper. And not as dangerous as H2.

Germany and the EU throw insane amounts of cash into this dead technology. In the false hope they could gain some leadership in something. While they lost the BEV battle completely. No surprise germany already has the highest energy prices in the world, loosing production capability every day.
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: derottone on January 14, 2022, 06:45:39 am
You can't expect the members of the European Committee to invest in something that's got the potential to make life easier for anyone but themselves. This is the folks that fear work, especially manual labour like the devil fears holywater.
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: Karl Childers on January 14, 2022, 02:59:52 pm
It only shows that you are able to use cut & paste. Great. My 5 year old newphew is able to do the same.

Yes, alternative energies are Flip-.Flop. And the produce power shortages, as long as they are not buffered. But H2 is not appropriate for this task, as it is much too inefficient. And even today the adequate amount of battery storage is cheaper. And not as dangerous as H2.

Germany and the EU throw insane amounts of cash into this dead technology. In the false hope they could gain some leadership in something. While they lost the BEV battle completely. No surprise germany already has the highest energy prices in the world, loosing production capability every day.

To say any technology is dead may not be accurate and possibly a disservice , quite often they are one breakthrough away from becoming viable. If first go rounds are imperfect and we throw are hands up and say it's a dead end then we will never advance whatever the research. If this were the case we wouldn't have electricity, something for example that got off to a slow start with many missteps, and much money spent to no avail, still we got there, it's way to soon to be calling hydrogen a dead technology. Our technical advances world wide were not built on defeatist attitudes.
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: viczena on January 14, 2022, 03:05:27 pm
You canot breakthrough the laws of physics. H2 is dead.

Now is my time for an indirect argument (as simple math and the laws of physics obviously does not do the trick): If H2 is such a good idea, why does everybody leave the sinking ship? Toyota is now the only respectable company, that did not delete H2. They invested a lot, and got subsidies from the legislation. Its just a matter of time, until also Toyota leaves. As soon as they can do it without loosing face.
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: Karl Childers on January 14, 2022, 04:23:30 pm
You canot breakthrough the laws of physics. H2 is dead.

Now is my time for an indirect argument (as simple math and the laws of physics obviously does not do the trick): If H2 is such a good idea, why does everybody leave the sinking ship? Toyota is now the only respectable company, that did not delete H2. They invested a lot, and got subsidies from the legislation. Its just a matter of time, until also Toyota leaves. As soon as they can do it without loosing face.

So corporations losing subsidies  and an opportunity for a quick turn around on profit is the bottom line and the true indicator of the viability for hydrogen? No one in that sphere of influence is in it for the long haul, it's all about profit, when someone else comes along and makes it work they'll be all over it

Laws of Physics?  When the steam locomotive came along there was the worry that the speeds it was capable of would cause it to disintegrate. You might have fit in well with that crowd. Science has been a history so far of theory, research, setback and revision. It's all about breaking barriers that were once deemed impossible. Minds are like parachutes, they function best when open.
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: viczena on January 14, 2022, 04:49:46 pm
In contrary, subsidies are rising. The EU throws out an insane amount of money. But not even Tesla wanted their subsidies. They refused to take their 1bill $ subsidy for the battery factory.

Laws of physics: If you produce H2 by electrolyse, you lose half of the energy. If you put this H2 into a fuel cell, you will never get more than 35% back. Simple thermodynamics. If you can call it simple at all.

If you are able to brake these laws, you have found the perpetuum mobile. Good luck hoping for that to happen.
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: axman88 on January 14, 2022, 04:53:39 pm
H2 is dead.
Almost as dead as this thread, buried as it is under pages of arguing about topics not even tangentially related to E-bikes.

Which seems regrettable to me, since it's unlikely that any future visitor will have the patience to wade through 27 pages of unrelated arguments, to find the very few posts actually about electric bicycles.

As every politician knows, the best way to kill an initiative is not to argue against it, but to bury it under unrelated BS, to fillibuster.

Maybe those folks wanting to read about electric bicycles will be better served by searching through these threads on hydrogen fuel:
https://forum.classicmotorworks.com/index.php?topic=6305.msg71398#msg71398
https://forum.classicmotorworks.com/index.php?topic=30906.msg369987#msg369987
https://forum.classicmotorworks.com/index.php?topic=32249.msg393660#msg393660

When I started this thread, I had high hopes that folks would share my interest in discussing the details of what is becoming a mature technology.  Bicycles are THE most energy efficient method of transportation, often said to be the most efficient machine man has ever created.  Brushless DC motors are very efficient in their own right, robust and versatile, with a high power to weight ratio.  Together, they create what is in my view, a very interesting transportation solution. 

Look at a representative sample of what is available in mountainbike motors in 2021:

Mfg              Model                 Torque (N-M)   Weight (kg)
Bosch    Performance Line CX    85               2.79
Brose    Drive S Mag             90               2.98
FAZUA    Ride 50 Evation      55              1.92
SACHS    RS                          110        3.66
Shimano    EP8                            85              2.57
Specialized  SL 1.1                     35              1.95
TQ             HPR 120 S              120              3.90
Yamaha   PW-X2                     80              3.06

https://ebike-mtb.com/en/the-best-emtb-motor-review/
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: viczena on January 14, 2022, 05:13:32 pm
It is a thread in "Campfire Talk", so topics might go sideways.

Nevertheless, the most interesting E-Bike at the moment seems to be the VARG by starkfuture.com. 80hp and 938 Nm torque. Though it still lacks the possibility for fast charging.
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: derottone on January 14, 2022, 05:25:47 pm
You canot breakthrough the laws of physics. H2 is dead.

Now is my time for an indirect argument (as simple math and the laws of physics obviously does not do the trick): If H2 is such a good idea, why does everybody leave the sinking ship? Toyota is now the only respectable company, that did not delete H2. They invested a lot, and got subsidies from the legislation. Its just a matter of time, until also Toyota leaves. As soon as they can do it without loosing face.

Can't wait to see the face saving. Just wonder if Toyota H2 man choose the mail box or the katana. Doubt there's anyone left willing to take their blame anymore.

https://www.bbc.com/news/business-57760993

H2 is not dead though, Atoms don't die neither law of physics.

I find certainly interesting that while covid-19 is considered god given, Germany is still in search of the responsible folks that caused the flooding last year.

https://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/german-police-conduct-raids-connection-floods-82194301
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: viczena on January 14, 2022, 06:37:56 pm
del
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: Karl Childers on January 14, 2022, 08:59:51 pm
In contrary, subsidies are rising. The EU throws out an insane amount of money. But not even Tesla wanted their subsidies. They refused to take their 1bill $ subsidy for the battery factory.

 Anecdotal, can you give me something to back these claims? Do you function at a high level of government or industry to be privy to ALL of this information? I've yet to see anyone turn down a 1bill subsidy when they can quietly squander it on other things. Also the EU is just that, a union. You seem to be painting with a pretty broad brush here.
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: viczena on January 14, 2022, 09:34:12 pm
I am not the one to google links, cut&paste  and paint them blue. You can do that yourself, if you are really interested. Not difficult.

For that I just needed 10 sec: https://www.cnbc.com/2021/11/26/tesla-decides-against-state-aid-for-german-battery-plant-as-musk-opposes-subsidies.html
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: Karl Childers on January 14, 2022, 11:46:21 pm
OK, so batteries but no mention of hydrogen, what's the connection to hydrogen that you say everyone is running away from?
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: viczena on January 15, 2022, 12:18:47 am
These are all seen as alternative energies and the subsidies are from the same source. But even as the money is sprinkled like water, nobody really wants them.

In the case of H2: Mercedes canceled, VW canceled, Scania canceled, BMW canceled.

Another 10sec search: https://www.cliffordchance.com/content/dam/cliffordchance/briefings/2021/04/focus-on-hydrogen-eu-funding-programmes-for-energy-projects.pdf

You should be able to do this by yourself.
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: viczena on January 15, 2022, 11:54:34 am
Another quick find: City realises HYDROGEN costs 6X more than EV, cancels order . Because of the price of operation.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zSeTHOCHryc

Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: derottone on January 15, 2022, 12:40:40 pm
The cost per se isn't a issue if you have customers to pass it on, now who would want to pay 6 times the bus ticket for the "privilege" of being transported in an H2 bus. Add some comfortable seats, good AC and some entertainment system to the bus and you are more likely to get some customers willing to pay a premium for the ride.
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: viczena on January 15, 2022, 12:50:01 pm
i would prefer to be transported in a self driving BEV car, for 1/4 of the cost.
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: derottone on January 15, 2022, 01:22:00 pm
i would prefer to be transported in a self driving BEV car, for 1/4 of the cost.

I would prefer to transport myself in a rwd sporty coupé. Individual mobility makes it possible, a bus is always a fishy compromise on someone.

I want to see that BEV capable of doing it at 1/4 of the cost.  ;)
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: Richard230 on January 15, 2022, 02:37:30 pm
 Breaking up is hard to do. ;D
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: Karl Childers on January 15, 2022, 02:56:10 pm
(http://)
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: viczena on January 15, 2022, 03:11:05 pm
more
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: derottone on January 15, 2022, 05:02:30 pm
Some 10 years ago i paid to the swedish "authorities" about 200$ for exceeding the speed limit of 100km by 5kmh.

The autonomous BEV is just a tiny step away to make a break through in that country. All they need to do is to upgrade the traffic monitoring systems with the latest tech.
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: AzCal Retred on January 15, 2022, 05:17:53 pm
Looks like the still unavailable Tesla Semi has to carry around about 15,000 pounds of batteries (1 MWHr) to Git 'r Dun.
The still absent Megacharger, as per the electrek article, would supposedly deliver 400 miles of range in 30 minutes. This is interesting.That is about 0.8 MW in 30 minutes, or a sustained rate of 1.6 MWHr. On the 13,800V local distribution side that's only about 116 amps 1 phase or 70 amps 3 phase. The lowside gets grimmer. 1.6 MW of DC at even 480V is 3300 amps, obviously less at higher voltages but I haven't seen any specs on the new vehicles battery operating voltage. That's a lot of unforgiving DC amps, or even possibly AC amps, for a random truck driver to connect up with absolutely reliably everytime.   Then there is the interesting question of intermittent grid loads of 1.6 MW for the Utility, as from their perspective 200-400 homes just appeared on their distribution grid. In large City Commercial distribution systems will likely be OK, Rural one not so much. Now we're talking infrastructure changes again, just like for H2, unless the Tesla Semis are just used short haul.

The Extremetech article also illustrates that it takes about 600 pounds of fuel to drive a conventional rig 500 miles, the maximum Tesla Semi range. {15,000/600= 25:1}  A standard 80,000 load becomes an additional 15,000 pounds, or 95,000 more for the Tesla.

https://www.extremetech.com/extreme/259195-tesla-semi-500-mile-range-cheaper-diesel-quick-charge
Based on vehicle battery packs in use now, we know lithium-ion battery packs of at least 50 kWh weigh about 15 pounds per 1 kilowatt-hour of stored energy. So if the Tesla Semi uses 1.5 kWh per mile and travels 500 miles, that means the battery is 750 kWh and weighs 11,250 pounds. If consumption is closer to 2.0 kWh per mile, the battery at is as much as 1,000 kWh — 1 megawatt-hour — and 15,000 pounds.
Maybe Tesla will find some economies of scale, but the weight of the Tesla Semi is going to include at least five tons of lithium-ion batteries. In comparison, a 6 mpg diesel tractor-trailer would use about 600 pounds of fuel on a 500-mile trip. Long-haul tractors carry enough fuel to go at least 1,000 miles, or two-plus days of driving, with 250-gallon fuel tanks (1,700 pounds)./font]


https://www.businessinsider.com/tesla-electric-semi-truck-delayed-again-2022-now-2021-7

https://electrek.co/2021/10/12/tesla-deploying-first-megacharger-charge-tesla-semi-electric-truck/

The YouTube reference was a riot, as the presenter never mentions where the H2 bus order that was cancelled happened, you are just expected to accept at face value the presenters statements. Sound familiar? Anyway it was in France.
 https://cleantechnica.com/2022/01/11/french-city-cancels-hydrogen-bus-contract-opts-for-electric-buses/Now, La Tribune says new city president Michaël Delafosse has decided to discontinue the project as the financial calculations underlying the proposed joint venture have not turned out as expected. Specifically, the city calculates it would cost them 95 cents per kilometer for the hydrogen fueled buses versus 15 cents per kilometer for battery-powered buses. In addition, the cost of the fuel cell-powered buses was between €150,000 and €200,000 more than the cost of battery-powered buses.

Derottones comment "The cost per se isn't a issue if you have customers to pass it on" is on point here.
( 15 cents / 30 passengers = 0.5 cents per km) (95/30= 3.2 cents per passenger per km)
A ticket is 2 Euro. A Carnet allows 10 tickets for 15 Euro, a 5 day pass is about 38 Euro. It's unlikely you'd travel over 50 km per day around the city, so the maximum "cost" to the city is likely under (250 x 5 cents = 12.5 Euro) even for the H2 wondermachine, still lots of margin, especially if you are trying to "decarbonize" the energy supply. The real argument here is the upfront cost of the hardware, which I have seen over 60+ years is normally the real driver for most decision makers. And it's also the driver for the H2 car stagnation. A $60K Mirai weighs about 4,000 pounds and travels about 300 miles on a full fuel load and has  extremely limited fuel access. A $30K Nissan  Leaf weighs about 4000 pounds and travels maybe 200 miles on a full charge. A $60K Tesla Y weighs about 4500 pounds and has a theoretical range of 300 miles but a practical one of about 220. Guess which is the best seller? Who would have suspected that people will tend to buy the cheapest example of an item they can find? Walmart? Harbor Freight?
https://www.auto123.com/en/news/best-selling-electric-cars-world-nissan-leaf-tesla-model-s/65617/
Since each model has been in production, Nissan has sold 363,940 units of the LEAF, while Tesla has moved 243,200 units of its Model S. This is particularly impressive when you consider the price difference between the two models. Yes, the Tesla targets a different audience, but it’s remarkable nonetheless.
https://www.caranddriver.com/tesla/model-y



Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: AzCal Retred on January 15, 2022, 06:40:44 pm
@ #435: Even here the authorities can issue tickets for violating the speed cameras. The new EVs are a lot more connected, should be simplicity itself to fully automate the traffic ticket system for them. I wonder if the new self-driving Tesla self reports if you put it on the "aggressive" driving setting?
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: viczena on January 15, 2022, 06:47:59 pm
The Tesla Semi is exactly 2 tons heavier than the Diesel counterparts. That is allowed by legislation. In the EU a BEV truck may weight 2 tons more than an ICE truck. And over 95% of all truck transports are not limited by maximum weight, but by size.

Several megachargers are already installed and running. Rumors say, that the comming Cybertruck can also use them. The first 15 Semis are delivered to Pepsi in January.

Meanwhile the Tesla Y outsold the Nissan Leaf by far. Comparing the Leaf to the Model S is BS.
Even colouring your infos does not make your completly outdated infos correct.
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: AzCal Retred on January 15, 2022, 06:50:50 pm
Any links to your information? It's good to be able to look at the same info. But colouring in the infos make them easier to recognise as quotes, yes?

https://www.jdpower.com/cars/shopping-guides/how-much-does-a-semi-truck-weigh#:~:text=The%20unladen%20weight%20of%20a,weight%20of%20about%2035%2C000%20pounds.
The GVWR includes the weight of the truck, cargo, fuel, passengers, and anything else on board or attached to the vehicle. Under US federal law, the maximum laden weight for semis is 80,000 pounds. Some heavier-duty trucks may have a higher GVWR for safety, but it remains illegal to load them past 80,000 pounds.
The unladen weight of a semi-tractor can vary between 10,000 and 25,000 pounds, depending on how powerful the engine is, how much it’s designed to tow, and whether or not it’s a sleeper cab. An unladen 53-foot trailer weighs about 10,000 pounds, accounting for a total unladen weight of about 35,000 pounds.


https://electrek.co/2021/08/13/tesla-semi-electric-truck-weight-on-point-crucial/

https://insideevs.com/news/525765/tesla-semi-payload-comparable-diesel/
As for the battery tech, many analysts and experts estimated in 2017 that Tesla would need a 600 kWh to 1,000 kWh battery pack to produce the Semi’s 300-mile (483-km) and 500-mile (805-km) variants. Since a 600 kWh pack weighs about 8,000 pounds (3,629 kg), it would eat into payload as Class 8 trucks have a total weight capacity limit of 80,000 pounds (36,287 kg).
However, Tesla argues it has made notable advancements in battery tech since the Semi’s unveiling, including the introduction of the 4680 battery cells. Since these cells are lighter but have a higher energy density, they could reduce the Semi’s weight, therefore making higher payloads possible.

Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: viczena on January 15, 2022, 06:52:37 pm
Google it yourself. And dont use links older than 6 weeks. Citing links from 2019 is awkward.

And read the whole information. The french busses themselves (for example) were heavily subsidized by the government and the EU, so they would get it for a very good price. That was the main reason why they did not calculate the running costs in the first place.
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: viczena on January 15, 2022, 07:10:40 pm
"As for the battery tech, many analysts and experts estimated in 2017..." . What shitty infos do want to present next? In blue, of course.

It seems that blue means: Beware, this is shit.
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: AzCal Retred on January 15, 2022, 07:15:38 pm
As long as they are using natgas sourced power for battery charging, decarbonization isn't in the picture, which is one big reason to go EV. Here's what Holland, that like Germany also doesn't have much of a Texas, are doing to try to maximize their independence from Gazprom & Russia. A platform mounted electrolyzer will allow blending & storage for later use of otherwise lost wind energy into the natgas stream heading shoreward.

https://www.neptuneenergy.com/esg/new-energy/poshydon-hydrogen-pilot
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: AzCal Retred on January 15, 2022, 07:17:24 pm
@ 441: Really? Battery tech is vastly better in 5 years?
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: viczena on January 15, 2022, 07:18:48 pm
You are right. Nothing happened in battery technology in the last 5 years. Sleep on. Its getting obvious that you know next to nothing about the things you write.
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: AzCal Retred on January 15, 2022, 07:26:53 pm
Any numbers? Any objective verification? Like this article showing 100% from 1990's to 2010, then maybe 50% from 2010 to 2022?

https://arstechnica.com/science/2021/05/eternally-five-years-away-no-batteries-are-improving-under-your-nose/
So where’s the proof that all this has been going on behind the scenes? If you look, the data bears out a number of trends. Energy density has a prominent trend. The original commercial lithium-ion battery, produced by Sony in the early 1990s, had an energy density of under 100 watt-hours per kilogram. That number has climbed over time, with the familiar cylindrical 18650 cells on the market hitting 200 watt-hours per kilogram by 2010. According to BloombergNEF, batteries used in electric vehicles have gotten as high as 300 watt-hours per kilogram in the last couple of years.
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: viczena on January 15, 2022, 07:51:18 pm
First find in google: https://cleantechnica.com/2020/09/22/everything-you-need-to-know-about-teslas-new-4680-battery-cell/

The PosHydon pilot: It costs around 10Mill Euros, the Netherland pays 3.6 Mill out of it. It will produce 400kg/day max. That is the worth/cost  of 2000 Euros per day. If it would be clean H2. But it gets mixed into the natural gas they are pumping out of the North sea. So they just add 400kg of burnable gas for household each day. So the value is decreased to 480 Euros, while the cost of producing keeps at 2000 Euros. Great achievement. 1500 Euros lost every day. And this pilot is not even running. All this could cost much more in the end.
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: derottone on January 15, 2022, 09:22:08 pm
All those fine automotive companies you mentioned though are building ridiculous battery factories at the expense of the taxpayer and the folks that keep the bussiness afloat. How just is that, why not giving the H2 men their way too.  ;)

Did you see how much a normal stinker cost from any of those conglomerates?
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: viczena on January 15, 2022, 10:12:30 pm
Tesla rejected to get subsidies for their battery manufacturing. 1 Billion Dollar. The only other automobile manufacturer who is building its own Batteries is BYD. China.

Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: derottone on January 15, 2022, 10:57:55 pm
Tesla rejected to get subsidies for their battery manufacturing. 1 Billion Dollar. The only other automobile manufacturer who is building its own Batteries is BYD. China.

https://www.di.se/live/scania-miljardinvesterar-i-batterifabrik-i-sodertalje/

https://www.pv-magazine.com/2021/12/29/first-li-ion-battery-rolls-off-northvolts-swedish-production-line/

...all they can do is sink cash in the ground, everything else would be corrupt.

Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: viczena on January 15, 2022, 11:29:38 pm
At the moment you can sell every battery pack you can produce. For a good price.

Something different than useless H2 pilot projects. Which produce 1500 Euro deficit every day.
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: derottone on January 16, 2022, 08:29:24 am
At the moment you can sell every battery pack you can produce. For a good price.

Something different than useless H2 pilot projects. Which produce 1500 Euro deficit every day.

The "good" news is that those factories are merely assembly plants which means should the battery cells reach the required performance one day the plants will be able to upgrade.

Who are the buyers though? The scrap yards? Some R&D projects? The crowd in Monaco with deep pockets? Some arabic Kingdom's?

In general I'm opposed to scale up the production of something when there is no solution that meets the criteria for a successful market launch. If you can't get the advantage of it being a novelty and pioneer like Tesla, you may have to seek a wide audience. That isn't possible with a battery that's high priced neither competitive to alternatives. I can drive my car on ethanol all day long and it will do the job still better than any BEV at s lower cost while being 100% CO2 free.

I rarely get my hands on vehicles with the "highest" top speed, or the "best" acceleration. So those marketing arguments don't work for me either.
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: viczena on January 16, 2022, 09:57:34 am
I doubt it. Ethanol is quite costly and brings just 70% of gas. Driving with BEV is much cheaper. Even in germany.
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: derottone on January 16, 2022, 11:14:57 am
I doubt it. Ethanol is quite costly and brings just 70% of gas. Driving with BEV is much cheaper. Even in germany.

I´m not sure I understand what you mean, however from experience I can tell you that the electric "varg" or better said wulf works in sweden only if you have no bullet at your hand.
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: AzCal Retred on January 16, 2022, 08:55:50 pm
@ # 446: It's a pilot project, yes? Blended H2 reduces net carbon emissions and improves fuel BTU content. 1 MW (400 kg) worth of H2 into a gas field line would likely be hard to measure. Current commercial PEM electrolyzers take around 50KW per KG of H2. Optimally a 1 MW electrolyzer makes about 20 Kg/Hr of H2, times 24 hours, 480 Kg. Poshydon claims 400 Kg and it's their data, but some agreement. Offshore Dutch wind production cost is 5-8 cents/KWH, so at a median 65 Euro/MWHr for 24 Hrs. you end up at roughly 1560 Euros "cost", and by your numbers 480 Euros "profit". In energy curtailment situations (high wind, minimal demand) there is no profit accruing to the windfarm owner as his equipment is idle. Intermittent sources are sidelined in favor of more predictable sources such as nuclear, natgas & coal for grid stability. The windfarm (or even suitable PV farm) owner can, by using the available electrolyzers, still easily store unsalable energy as a natgas blend inside the natgas transport & storage system, allowing participation during a higher usage time. Without the electrolyzers and gas line access, this isn't going to happen. Standard industrial volume & concentration metering hardware make billing possible.

https://www.offshore-energy.biz/netherlands-grants-poshydon-offshore-green-hydrogen-project/
The goal of the pilot is to gain experience in integrating energy systems at sea and the production of hydrogen in an offshore environment. In addition, the efficiency of an electrolyser with a variable supply from offshore wind will be tested.
Title: Re: E-Bike developments
Post by: viczena on January 16, 2022, 09:07:24 pm
If you would read more, you could read that the offshore production of H2 costs over 5$ per kg H2 (their own claim). And yes, it is not profitable. Not even close. Industrial H2 out of gas costs 2,5 $ per kg. And es still not near as cheap as electricity.