[Blaqkfox]

Ok. So long story short, my oil has miraculously disappeared. I went on vacation to the beach for a week and come back, check it and it won't even register on the dip stick??? Thought maybe because it was on the center stand perhaps, but nope still bone dry on level ground, bike level, all that.



I know wet sumping is a worry with the older iron barrel but I think Adrian had told me in a previous thread that it wasn't so much of a worry with the AVL because they used a better quality crank seal or something?

Would this be what happens with wet sumping, or the tank to read completely dry I mean? I rode it the day before we left, I even checked the oil that day. rode 64 miles no problems, no weird ticking noises or any indication that oil had "left the chat" so to speak on my ride home. Parked it and there it sat for a week. Locked up inside.

Also can someone "explain like I'm 5" wet sumping to me while we're on the topic? I don't quite understand how that works. If I understand correctly, oil seeps past the older iron barrel cork crank seal and floods some section of the bottom crankcase of the engine somewhere it isn't supposed to go? And people say if you put it at TDC when you park it this prevents that from happening? But supposedly the AVL got a rubber seal so it isn't much of a worry? At any rate, it should just be a little oil gets in the combustion chamber from I'm guessing because I hear if you do wet sump it then it just blows some oil smoke on start up? But that shouldn't leave the oil tank completely dry right???

I've worked on a lot of overhead cam car engines and its pretty simple, just the pan with the crank and rods right there and the pickup for the oil pump. So I'm confused to what all this sump and area the oil gets into that it shouldn't on these older royal engines is exactly? like a drawing or something would really help me understand what's going on I think... Ive seen the diagram in Peters manual for the iron barrels explaining the dry sump system, and I understand the sump system, and read where he talks about wet sumping but I still don't fully understand what's happening in the wet sump situation.

I've come to find oil level is tricky on the enfields, as previously discussed in another thread I started, we were talking about how like 1/2-1qt of oil can get trapped in the timing case right? I wanted to know if anyone had any tips or tricks on how to get the appropriate oil level on these bikes. At times I think its undefiled when I check it so I add some, then the next time I check it its too low, and I have a little hand pump that ive pumped some oil out of the tank with before, and then ill go ride it and somehow its still overfilled or so low im thinking its undefiled and then the whole cycle starts over again. I can never tell how much oil is truly in this thing. Usually I shoot for running the bike, shutting it off, waiting several minutes, and then trying to get about halfway on the dipstick with it screwed all the way in. I figure thats a sweet spot where I can't be too over or under on the level, but I think that timing case is capturing different amounts all the time so its hard to be accurate on oil changes and even harder to know when im just checking the level before or after a ride.

And I've been checking frequently because I have a very very small leak from the secondary primary case. (But this should be primary oil that leaks from here correct?)





It mainly leaks after putting it up hot, hardly leaks when its cold, but im sure its leaking some when I ride too, I can see it blown back down the cover and onto the side stand. But that little spot in the corner is the fresh spot (you can see the other dried up looking spots from all the previous times ive parked it). And thats how much its leaked in a week sitting still. So its a VERY small leak, and ive put double the recommended amount of oil in my primary like a lot of folks said to do, so I've just been waiting until winter to fix it.

This is the only leak on the bike. The bike doesnt smoke. So WTH? WHERE IS MY OIL?! LOL

[AzCal Retred]

Almost everything made today is wet sump. The oil simply exits the bearings and falls into the crankcase where the oil pump lives, gets sucked up and goes around again.

The Bullet is a dry sump engine because it is a tall, long stroke, heavy flywheel design. The heavy flywheel is located low on the machine for proper weight distribution. This doesn't leave much distance from the flywheel to the tarmac for a wet sump. The flywheel can't be allowed to plough thru oil either, it eats HP.  So dry sump systems have two pumps, one to scavenge the crankcase and keep it "dry", a second to push oil to the bearings. The Bullet cleverly uses the scavenge pump to supply oil to the rockers, which then falls down the pushrod tunnels to the timing cover cavity. The timing cover usually holds at least a cup of oil. When full, it overflows back to the main cast in place oil tank.

The crankshaft has two sealing areas inside the timing cover. The rubber crank seal normally keeps the timing cover oil from leaking directly back to the crankcase & wet sumping. The quill seal is the second seal, but there's a caveat: the crankpin has to be at BDC or at least under 1/2 way up the stroke to allow a leaky quill seal leak to syphon timing cover oil back to the crankcase.

Usually the machine needs to run 30 seconds to a minute to normalize the various levels. IF you stop the engine with the piston near TDC, there is a low probability that the timing cover oil will end up in the engine sump. So, if there was oil in it when you left, and there's no giant puddle of oil under the machine, it's in the sump. Start it and idle it for a minute (expect some blue smoke), then shut down and recheck the level.

And of course you can always just pull the screened crankcase plug to see if there's an extra pint in there instead of the normal couple of teaspoons...

IF you get a wet sump regardless of parking the piston at TDC, then you are due for a new crank seal. If the oil only migrates when the piston is left low in the cylinder, probably the quill seal. The quill seal is easy to change out.

[Adrian II]

AzCal,

+1 to your wet-sumping diagnosis, but here's an update on a couple of details!

The Electra-X/AVL has a different oil seal arrangement for the oil feed to the crankshaft. There's a spigot extension to the main shaft which runs in a garter seal in the timing cover (think late BSA unit singles), there's no quill bolt in the timing cover running in a cork or neoprene bung in the worm drive on the end of the crank as you find in the iron barrel engines. This ought to be more efficient at keeping the oil in the crank feed apart from what's in the timing chest. However, the Electra-X/AVL has no seal behind the crankshaft timing pinion (which you would expect to find in at least the late 500 iron barrel Bullets from India), the shaft just runs in the bare alloy of the crankcase until you get to the timing side main bearing.

This means, particularly if you're using a thinner grade of engine oil, the Electra-X WILL be a wet sumper. Main certainly was, but the efficiency of the large gear oil pump on the scavenge side was such that it would clear the sump very quickly, before the oil started overwhelming the oil control ring for the classic wet sump white smoke.

You should get yourself an AVL, they're fun bikes once fully sorted.

A.

[tooseevee]

Ok. So long story short, my oil has miraculously disappeared. I went on vacation to the beach for a week and come back, check it and it won't even register on the dip stick??? Thought maybe because it was on the center stand perhaps, but nope still bone dry on level ground, bike level, all that.

            I think this has been discussed with you before by me & others in other threads since you first brought it up.

             You canNOT check the oil in an AVL that has sat not running for a number of days (or even overnight) without RUNNING it first. This has been discussed on the AVL section going back many years.

              Run the engine for a while if it has sat overnight. 2, 3, 4, 5 minutes. Whatever. Then take a walk, look at the sky, whatever, for another few minutes. THEN check the oil.

              If it's 1/2 to 2/3 up the hashmarks, it's good.

               If you check it in the morning without running it & add oil, it will be blown out the crankcase breather.

               This is a characteristic of this engine because of how the crankcase & oil tank work with each other. There's nothing you can "fix" about it. You just have to do it that way.

               Your primary & sprag tower leaks are just gaskets. Engines need new gaskets once in a while.

               

[Blaqkfox]

Alright thanks guys, yeah 2cv, I hear ya, but it’s never been where the dipstick was just completely dry. I just wanted to check and see how dark the oil was looking, so wash shocked it was bone dry on the stick. I mean I know your supposed to run it to get an accurate reading, but I was only concerned with color and I’ve pulled the stick before when it’s sat for days and it was still wet. Not this time! Lol

But ok so it’s all just in the sump then probably? Somebody told me it’s common on the AVL for the stick to be dry if it’s sat for days and hasn’t been ran, especially if it was on the kick stand? I was on center stand but I have to lay the bike over a good 45 degrees to clear my shed door sometimes lol so maybe I sloshed all the oil somewhere I guess

[tooseevee]

And I've been checking frequently because I have a very very small leak from the secondary primary case. (But this should be primary oil that leaks from here correct?)





It mainly leaks after putting it up hot, hardly leaks when its cold, but im sure its leaking some when I ride too, I can see it blown back down the cover and onto the side stand. But that little spot in the corner is the fresh spot (you can see the other dried up looking spots from all the previous times ive parked it). And thats how much its leaked in a week sitting still. So its a VERY small leak, and ive put double the recommended amount of oil in my primary like a lot of folks said to do, so I've just been waiting until winter to fix it.

This is the only leak on the bike. The bike doesnt smoke. So WTH? WHERE IS MY OIL?! LOL

           Yes, it can only be primary oil.

           Your primary cover has a vent tube. That tube runs between the back of the primary cover & the sprag hump, bump, tower, whatever. THAT may be the "leak" you're seeing after a good run if there is just a "bit" more oil in the primary than it likes to have in there so it is blowing out the vent when you're going 65mph down the highway & then the tube is still dripping for a while when you park it.

            But it looks to me that it's probably the inboard sprag hump gasket that's to blame for your drip.

             PS: Don't put more oil in the primary because of that drip 

[AzCal Retred]

@ #2: Egads! No Quill on the AVL/Electra?? Blasphemy!! 

Thanks for the update - probably again...it'll sink in eventually. 

A2 - Keep on keeping us honest! - ACR -

[Blaqkfox]

           Yes, it can only be primary oil.

           Your primary cover has a vent tube. That tube runs between the back of the primary cover & the sprag hump, bump, tower, whatever. THAT may be the "leak" you're seeing after a good run if there is just a "bit" more oil in the primary than it likes to have in there so it is blowing out the vent when you're going 65mph down the highway & then the tube is still dripping for a while when you park it.

            But it looks to me that it's probably the inboard sprag hump gasket that's to blame for your drip.

             PS: Don't put more oil in the primary because of that drip 

Yeah I’m pretty sure it’s the gasket, I can see someone tried globbing gasket maker on the old gasket and sandwiching it back together, and now part of the old oem gasket is sticking out a little bit.

 I haven’t seen a tube though

[tooseevee]

Yeah I’m pretty sure it’s the gasket, I can see someone tried globbing gasket maker on the old gasket and sandwiching it back together, and now part of the old oem gasket is sticking out a little bit.

 I haven’t seen a tube though

           Mine's an Oh Ate. Hoo Nose?  Shirley Knot Me 

           We could go  on Hitchcocks , I suppose, but is either of us THAT interested in Tube/No Tube ? 

           PS: Maybe we can wait and do nothing & Adrian will just tell us 

[Adrian II]

My Electra-X had the breather tube from the primary which joined the other hoses going up into the catch can. When I dumped the OEM breather system I just sealed off the primary breather hose and left it.

A.

[tooseevee]

My Electra-X had the breather tube from the primary which joined the other hoses going up into the catch can. When I dumped the OEM breather system I just sealed off the primary breather hose and left it.
A.

           I turned mine to point forward & ran it down through the space between the case and the sprag hump & never gave it another thought back when I did away with all the other breather stuff (except for the crankcase hose, of course). I could just as well have plugged the nipple as you did. If I remember right, I put 800 millamaliters in it.

[Bilgemaster]

I just stumbled in here from the Iron Barrel Old Folks Home, and am only halfway through my first coffee, but I've read and reread the comments so far, and while there's been a lot of discussion of "Wet Sumping" and gaskets or seals, there's been little attention given to "The Breather Catch Can Sploodges" or "Nivea Syndrome", as they call it over on the German Enfield Forum, whereby the oil return hose from the Breather Catch Can clogs up with a nasty grey-brown mayonnaise. This blocks the return flow of oil condensate from the Catch Can to the oil tank via an inlet located on the inner side of the oil tank near the timing case. (The outlet or breather hose from the crankcase is located alongside it instead of on the left side of the crankcase as on earlier model Bullets, as both The Lord and Redditch originally intended). There is a third hose running higher up from the Catch Can to the Air Filter Box intended to recirculate the breather gases through the air filter and carburetor and back into combustion chamber. The whole cockamamie rigamarole was a last ditch effort to reduce emissions on these primitive old thumpers. Basically, once the oil flow from the Catch Can back to the oil tank is blocked, the Catch Can fills with oil, which then reaches the hose that goes to the Filter Airbox and fouls up the air filter while the added pressure empties most of the contents of the oil tank in there too, leaving one with a near empty oil tank.

My own later '05 Iron Barrel with this setup experienced this curious issue intermittently, and was the main reason I got it so cheaply. I gather the AVLs must have had a similar Breather Catch Can System, since it was largely our venerable AVL owner Tooseevee's guidance that got me on track to curing mine, as described in this elderly thread: https://forum.classicmotorworks.com/index.php?topic=25940.0;all. In the end, I cured it by pulling out all that Catch Can nonsense, capping off the oil return inlet with a wine cork, and running the breather outlet hose at a steepish angle up to a kind of one-way checkvalve (a nice KrankVent knockoff) just tucked underneath the saddle, with the remainder of the hose just running down towards the road tucked in by the swingarm pivot. This has completely cured "The Sploodges".

Assuming your AVL still has that OEM Catch Can and gas recirculation system in place, a quick way to tell if it's afflicted with "Sploodges" would be to examine your airbox and air filter. If it's fouled with oil, it's time to yank out that crap and punt it into the neighbor's hedges.

[tooseevee]

System, since it was largely our venerable AVL owner Tooseevee's guidance that got me on track to curing mine, as described in this elderly thread: https://forum.classicmotorworks.com/index.php?topic=25940.0;all. In the end, I cured it by pulling out all that Catch Can nonsense, capping off the oil return inlet with a wine cork, and running the breather outlet hose at a steepish angle up to a kind of one-way checkvalve (a nice KrankVent knockoff)

           Thanks for the mention, but I learned everything I know from Adrian, Tom Lyons, Pete Snidal & two or three others whose names I can't bring out of the cobwebs who were on the Forums back in '09, '10, '11, '12. Plus I had started to read everything I could find starting in 2004 when my best friend's girlfriend rode her brand new 2004 Ironhead into my driveway & I said to myself "Self. You gotta get yourself one of these"! Took until '09 to find the perfect deal. I did NOT want to go to a dealer.

[Adrian II]

[tooseevee]

           Ah, yes. I remember it well