Author Topic: Newby needing some guidance.  (Read 11410 times)

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Steelaway

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on: October 01, 2023, 12:54:57 am
I've just bought an Electra X.
I wanted the old pre unit look but it had to have modern extras including the electric start, I'm too old and frail to use a kickstart
I thought a sixty 5 would be the perfect choice but I couldn't find any for sale.
Although I now think the new engine is probably the better option.
It seems that the engine has been severely restricted in trying to meet the modern emissions standards.
Therefore for the sake of performance I want to do away with them all.
Firstly I want to replace the restricted exhaust system and then replace the restricted carburettor.
Maybe phase two would be to buy a 535 piston and have a big rebore..
I would be happy for any guidance and where I am going wrong or could do better.
Any recommendations would be appreciated.


AzCal Retred

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Reply #1 on: October 01, 2023, 02:13:04 am
Speed costs money, how fast do you want to go?

The Electra is the swan song of the pre-unit: electric start, 5 speed, disc brake, gear oil pumps, needle con rod, vacuum carb, crank triggered ignition. It's really nice as a representative pre-unit machine of the 1935ish era as is.

Adding compression and displacement adds stress to the electric starter guts. The OEM starter guts are a bit fragile, Hitchcock's for about $700 sell a very nice upgraded starter guts package.

The Electra is made in India. Generating great speed on a factory built low-budget frame, forks, shocks, brakes may not be in your best interest. It works well up to maybe 75, after that you are better off on a used $3500 650 Ninja.

Power starts from having a strong, solidly built crank. If your crank or rod or piston lets go it can frag the cases. The Electra crank needs to be built to accept real power (35-40 HP). Hitchcock's sell very nice hell-for-stout specimens for around +$2000, you install.

Then you talk headwork & porting, light pushrods, cams, valves, carb & tuning jets, upgraded primary chain, clutch, good shocks, real tires and tubes, hi-flo air box and filter, etc.

Exhaust and carb, clamp on air filter are a good place to stop. It'll pull better and rev out a bit more and they just bolt on. Hitchcock's has all the bits and has sorted the jetting requirements for a bigger Mikuni or Amal which they can supply. BUT it's a long stroke single, so RPM isn't really its forte.

I'd put 2-4 K miles on it as is and see if you like the basic package. $1000 will get a carb, pipe, KN air cleaner. Another $500 for some good tires & shocks. Learn the machine's peculiarities, see if you want to really dive in ($$$).

These old designs are a hoot on backroads, and the Electra is the best of the lot. You made a good choice, enjoy that old dinosaur!


A trifecta of Pre-Unit Bullets: a Red Deluxe 500, a Green Standard 500, and a Black ES 350.


Steelaway

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Reply #2 on: October 01, 2023, 08:50:42 am
Wow thanks for all that.
Very comprehensive, I obviously had no idea how far you can go.
I am just dipping my toe into the water but you have shown me how far you can go and what is possible
I love the way that it rides now and don't want to spoil it's character I just can't abide inefficiency.
I love the torque and would like to increase that without making it a higher reving monster.
Thanks again for all the info it has given me lots to think about.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2023, 08:56:18 am by Steelaway »


Adrian II

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Reply #3 on: October 01, 2023, 09:40:03 am
My entry to Royal Enfield ownership was a 2005 Electra-X. They're quite an underrated bike whose reputation has been tarnished with some well-recorded (but fixable) mechanical issues. They CAN be made to go vert well indeed.

A.
Grumpy Brit still seeking 500 AVL Bullet perfection! Will let you know if I get anywhere near...


Steelaway

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Reply #4 on: October 01, 2023, 10:09:42 am
Thanks for the reply but can you give me more details of the fixable mechanical issues.
I know that the starter clutch can be a bit fragile.Is it always because of backfiring.
I have read that the rectifier and starter solenoid can often fail.
Anything else to be wary of?


Adrian II

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Reply #5 on: October 01, 2023, 03:08:20 pm
Right, let's get the potential bad news out of the way first, none of what follows is actually terminal, more of an annoyance if it happens to you, so hang in there.

The sprag clutch in the electric start mechanism is well known for those bang-crunch moments. If the carb isn't set up right the engine can back fire, which is what happened to mine, although I had had the bike for 9 years before one backfire too many happened. You also need a really healthy AGM battery, it transforms the electric start experience. Learning to use the valve lifter - if it works - will help.

Early models had problems with the big end pins' hardening failing prematurely, later versions by and large held together and ran up some quite respectable mileages. If the worst happens, new crank pins and con-rods for the EFI Bullets are a direct replacement and can be had quite cheaply.

Mine also snapped the foot off its exhaust tappet (it obviously wanted to be a BSA B50!) With a little bit of engineering work you can fit the tappets and guides from the older-style Bullet which have thicker stems.

Also for some reason the Electra-X is higher geared than the normal Bullet with an 18T sprocket on the gearbox in place of the normal 17T. For those of us who have probably enjoyed too many pies, ahem  :-[, 17T is better.

NOW the good bit.

The engine is a partial re-design of the old Bullet to turn it into an emissions regs dodger. OK, there's a great big stuffed-up silencer full of catalytic converter, AND the exhaust pipe is also fitted with various chicanery to get the lean-burn running condition. To achieve this they also needed a higher compression than the old Bullet was running, and of course the thing running lean would also be much hotter. So while an all-new alloy top end was needed (with a modern combustion chamber design) to prevent melt down or piston seizure it also got a steel con-rod and needle roller big end, which, if the quality of the metallurgy matches the design (see above) gives you a much tougher and therefore safely tunable bottom end as standard. The former UK importer for Indian Royal Enfields, Watsonian-Squire, claimed the engine could cope with being tuned up to 44BHP, although they never did.

So if you do get to know the bike and enjoy it as it is, but want more, what can be done to liberate the beast within? Azcal has covered the basics, so forgive any repetition from a UK viewpoint.

A freer-flowing exhaust pipe and silencer in conjunction with a sportier carb will make good use of the (former) lean-burn's 8.5:1 compression ratio. There are plenty of 32mm carb options, the the inlet port on these is much larger than the factory fitted 29mm CV carb ever needed. It's very little work to take these out to 36 or even 38mm for total headbangers. Watsonian-Squire brought out their own go-slightly-faster kit featuring a Dell'Orto PFH32 carb which was quite sporty by Bullet standards, though they never really developed it.

The exhaust port on the cylinder head is very poorly finished, probably the factory thought there was no need to open it out properly as they would be fitting the restrictive exhaust pipe. nothing a few minutes with a die grinder can't fix.

So that will add some nice poke to the engine, but there are limitations to the lean-burn cams, they hit valve bounce at 5,800 RPM. A cheap upgrade is a good set of ordinary Indian Bullet cams, but if you really want the engine to fly, a set of the old late 50's Reddich Bullet touring "S" cams, if you can get some that aren't too worn, will let the it rev.

Get that lot right and you won't need a 535 kit, unless you want the 87mm piston to reclaim a badly scored cylinder barrel (standard is 84mm)

A.
Grumpy Brit still seeking 500 AVL Bullet perfection! Will let you know if I get anywhere near...


Steelaway

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Reply #6 on: October 01, 2023, 03:50:13 pm
This place is a mine of information.
I put the query up after midnight last night and already I more information than I can deal with.
Thanks guys.

The bike I've bought is a 2005 with 2,500 miles on the clock so almost unused and bog standard.
Adrian -- I hope my big end doesn't suffer from the hardness issue and it will take nine years for the starter clutch problem to appear.

My initial plan is to buy an unrestricted 1.75" exhaust from Hitchcocks and remove the emissions valve. I like the look of Goldstar silencers and Armours do the perfect replica.
I've always liked Mikuni carbs from my racing days and there is now a 32mm Chinese replica on eBay for £45 that is worth taking the chance with.

Beyond that will take some serious thinking about but I now have so much more knowledge.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2023, 03:58:12 pm by Steelaway »


AzCal Retred

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Reply #7 on: October 01, 2023, 05:05:39 pm
Be aware that there is a reason that the knock off is $45. Don't build in trouble by fighting marginal parts. Fighting mystery carb tuning isn't a lot of fun. About a month into it you may well regret not getting that $300 Mikuni kit...

Pricepart sell Wassell carbs ready to go in the $100 range - many here like them. The ?PWK? brand is highly thought of too. A good knowledge base exists.
https://www.pricepartmotorcycles.co.uk/ourshop/cat_316500-Wassell-Carburetors-and-parts.html
A trifecta of Pre-Unit Bullets: a Red Deluxe 500, a Green Standard 500, and a Black ES 350.


tooseevee

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Reply #8 on: October 01, 2023, 05:28:54 pm
This place is a mine of information.
I put the query up after midnight last night and already I more information than I can deal with.
Thanks guys.

The bike I've bought is a 2005 with 2,500 miles on the clock so almost unused and bog standard.
Adrian -- I hope my big end doesn't suffer from the hardness issue and it will take nine years for the starter clutch problem to appear.

                You can't bet the farm on that nine years.

My initial plan is to buy an unrestricted 1.75" exhaust from Hitchcocks and remove the emissions valve. I like the look of Goldstar silencers and Armours do the perfect replica.
I've always liked Mikuni carbs from my racing days and there is now a 32mm Chinese replica on eBay for £45 that is worth taking the chance with.

Beyond that will take some serious thinking about but I now have so much more knowledge.

            The only thing I would add over what Adrian & AzCal already covered is that I might consider riding it as it is (just be sure your battery is ALWAYS 100% as good as it can be) for at least 2 othree hundred miles without doing anything to it to shake out anything that might be lurking in the shadows. After you do that you will have an even BETTER idea of what you want to.

             The factory wiring was terrible in those days. The factory wiring on my brand new '08 was terrible. I spent many many many hours I did NOT totally enjoy completely going through every wie on the bike, unwrapped the entire harness, straightened up the rat's nest in the headlight, went through the AWFUL little black ground wires & connectors, ran all new wires to the stern & then rewrapped the harness. Now I 100% trust it & would sell it with no guilt.

              If you want to talk about how much you can spend, I have easily spent again pretty close to what I paid for it. Is it better? Yes.

               Be VERY sure of your battery. A low battery will turn the starter more slowly & it WILL damage the sprag & sooner or later, it will detonate when it can take no more & it happens suddenly if that 1st spark drives the piston back down backwards just right & it's all over now, baby blue, but for the Hitchcock's orders.

               Oh, I WILL add something else  :). You will also (along with a decent carburetor & silencer) have to cut out the "hot tube" that is spot welded inside the silencer end of the header pipe. It's a smaller diameter, 16" tube with a thousand little holes in it. VERY restrictive.
I cut mine out with a Dremel.

               Oh, one more thing :) sorry. ALWAYS kill the engine with the decompressor lever & THEN turn the key off. That's the only thing it's really good at. Also use it for Electric-Starting for the first few seconds of crank. It's another thing that helps that starter get a good spin right away. You don't want the piston tippytoeing up to TDC. You want that over center inertia. Adrian's already covered most of this I just want to validate its importance.

               

         
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Steelaway

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Reply #9 on: October 01, 2023, 07:25:05 pm
Thanks for the heads-up on the wiring, I've not had chance to look at it yet.
It seems to have had a replacement battery fitted recently and it does seem in good condition. I have had smart battery charger for years so I will keep it topped up with that, but thanks again.
I'll be replacing the down pipe so won't be getting involved with the hot tube.


allanfox

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Reply #10 on: October 02, 2023, 10:10:32 am
I can second Adrian's advice on the cams from an iron barrelled Bullet, I took his advice, and does make quite a difference to how it runs. Mine has a 32mm Amal, Hitchcocks open pipe, the Iron Cams and total removal of all stock breathing stuff and now breathes out of the oil tank onto the chain via a one way valve and as mine still had the crankcase stub i opened it up and it bteathes  via the Hitchcock breather tower also onto teh chain, very little oil comes out. These can puke oil everywhere when you change it all but there are fixes you can employ.

Mine needed a rebore but there are not any +20 pistons from Enfield so I fitted an EFI piston with a dished crown effectively reducing the compression ratio a bit, good thing for me as I have removed all the starter stuff and only kick it up.

The result of all this is a bike that is easy to kick start, runs straight up to 80 and has been up to 95 a couple of times, reckon there is more but ran out of road (needs a bit!)

I have tried S cams and they did add a lot of torque but were a bit rattly (no amount of pinion adjustment would cure it) as maybe worn so not using for now, next thing is to drop a tooth on the gearbox sprocket so it can rev a bit more freely when getting up hills, love it a good bike so far!

Oh, it started out as a Watsonian trails conversion so does look good too!
« Last Edit: October 02, 2023, 10:14:57 am by allanfox »


tooseevee

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Reply #11 on: October 02, 2023, 11:44:18 am

Oh, it started out as a Watsonian trails conversion so does look good too!

       Yes, it does look good.

        I've had that header pipe hanging in the garage for years. I've never put it on. Still have the stock double wall on mine with the hot tube cut out.

         Yours is a beautiful color.

          What muffler is that?
RI USA '08 Black AVL Classic.9.8:1 ACEhead/manifold/canister. TM32/Open bottle/hot tube removed. Pertronix Coil. Fed mandates removed. Gr.TCI. Bobber seat. Battery in right side case. Decomp&all doodads removed. '30s Lucas taillight/7" visored headlight. Much blackout & wire/electrical upgrades.


allanfox

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Reply #12 on: October 02, 2023, 01:16:11 pm
       Yes, it does look good.

        I've had that header pipe hanging in the garage for years. I've never put it on. Still have the stock double wall on mine with the hot tube cut out.

         Yours is a beautiful color.

          What muffler is that?


Thankyou, stock colour option I think for 2006, the paint has survived so far but does benefit from a good coat of wax on a regular basis.

The silencer is just a cheap piece of junk, my brother now owns the Norman Hyde business in the UK (famous Triumph Triple man) and consequently has all sorts of stuff kicking about, the silencers were just some samples he had been sent for the 650 Enfield twins but were sub-standard and he never stocked them and left them on a shelf. I spotted them and was gifted them. They look great and fit well but the chrome is quite badly done and the channel that holds the captive bolt on the inside has pulled off on one so using number two! Based on looks I might weld the channel back on properly and have them re- chromed as they do sound good even with an end baffle fitted.


Adrian II

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Reply #13 on: October 02, 2023, 02:00:49 pm
Thanks for posting the photo.

Ref the exhaust, it looks like it already has Hitchcocks' unrestricted down pipe fitted, the factory one is a slightly different shape and doesn't blue so easily, I think the OEM pipes are double skinned as well as having the lean burn gubbins stuffed up there. If so, no need to replace it. You might be able to track down some Blue Away chrome polish.

If you're buying a Gold Star type silencer from Armours don't forget they have a stainless steel option.

Ref the big end, it took me TEN years before that failed at 17+ thousand miles (it was also a 2005 model). I had been using the bike for commuting on-and-off, so the annual mileage varied. You could start looking for a used crankshaft with a knackered big end and have it rebuilt ready! The quality of Indian crank-pins did improve, though I think there's also a Jawa speedway 35mm diameter crank-pin which might be a suitable replacement.  Alpha Bearings will also rebuild Electra-X crankshafts, and there are various people/outfits around the country who can handle this if you don't have an old-fashioned engine repair workshop near you.  No doubt the Norman Hyde connection will come in handy.

Ref carbs, there was a horror story of a Chinese copy of a VM32 Mikuni where the slide locating peg came adrift, jamming the carb open while the bike was still being ridden!  I don't know whether the Chinese VM32s come jetted for 2 or 4 stroke use, that might need some research. 

For AzCal, the PWK carb isn't a make in its own right but originally a flat slide carb model range produced by Keihin in Japan which works in both 2 stroke and 4 stroke applications. The market is now flooded with Taiwanese and mainland Chinese clones of these in all sizes. The latter can be had for beer money on Ali Express and people have used them quite successfully on Bullets and a whole range of classic bikes, the previous US importer used to sell a kit for these.

A.
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tooseevee

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Reply #14 on: October 02, 2023, 03:32:23 pm

Thankyou, stock colour option I think for 2006, the paint has survived so far but does benefit from a good coat of wax on a regular basis.

        I meant the header pipe color  :) :)
RI USA '08 Black AVL Classic.9.8:1 ACEhead/manifold/canister. TM32/Open bottle/hot tube removed. Pertronix Coil. Fed mandates removed. Gr.TCI. Bobber seat. Battery in right side case. Decomp&all doodads removed. '30s Lucas taillight/7" visored headlight. Much blackout & wire/electrical upgrades.