[mattsz]

In another thread, oil changing and levels are being discussed.  Here's a post from our friend caricabasso:

We must remember that the  connecting rod chamber is closed to lubricate the best crankshaft and piston.
The oil is then catapulted from the crankshaft rear to the transmission gears.
From the picture you can see how much oil remains on the chamber connecting rod, that is, 900 c.c.!
This can cause errors in the reading level.

I think we can all agree, that's a lot left behind when you're trying to change your oil.  Conventional wisdom calls for tipping the bike side to side to help drain behind the side covers.  I've been trying to sort this out myself lately (having access to an open engine case) to improve my oil draining, to see how the second drain plug added by the factory would help - and to see whether a second plug might be fitted to the earlier UCE.

As many of you know, I don't know much about what I'm doing here, so this isn't a tutorial or anything - I'm just throwing it up for discussion!

Anyway, here's some photos I took, and annotated to show my understanding of what's happening - and why I'm not sure how tipping the bike helps drain the oil...

As caricabasso reminds us, when the engine is running, the spinning crank throws oil from the crank chamber up and back to lubricate the transmission.

So, first is a pic of the inside of the right-side engine case, showing the crank chamber and the oil sump:



To the lower right of the photo, you can see the small dark circle which is the sump drain plug opening - but notice that there is no opening to drain oil from the bottom of the crank chamber. 

My green line traces where the cases are glued together, so no oil drains into the sump anywhere along that seam.  The blue arrow shows the lowest passage out of the chamber on this side - the shift lever shaft passes through here.  No oil below it can drain anywhere.  The yellow arrow shows a lower passage, but it's between sump and the outside of the case (behind the right-side engine cover).


Here is the outside of the right-side engine case:



The blue arrow shows the shift lever shaft passage from the previous photo - I've got a light behind it to show it clearly.  Also note the yellow arrow marking the same lower passage back to the sump - any oil finding its way from the crank chamber through the shift lever shaft passage (no seal there, so it could happen, I suppose) will obviously run into the sump through the "yellow" passage - but neither passage drains the crank chamber, as seen in the first photo.

I'm not sure what happens with the engine cover on this side, but it appears that oil towards the front of this area, beneath the cams and stator/rotor, will remain captured by the short rearward-tilting baffle plate just to the right of my yellow arrow - the gasket seals this to a matching web in the cover casting.  So I don't see how tipping the bike (a common suggestion for oil changes) helps drain much of any oil from this outer right-side chamber.


To the inside of the left-side engine case:



Another green strip, tracing where the cases are glued together, so no oil drains into the sump along that seam.  Another blue arrow, showing the matching shift lever shaft passage between the left inner and outer cases.  This time, however, the red arrow shows a lower passage between the left inner and outer cases, where oil can pass through...


outside of the left-side engine case:



... but as we see at the red arrow, that passage is at the bottom of the left-side outer case - and it's the lowest passage for any oil to pass out of this chamber.  The high "blue" passage is visible here, too - and there are no other passages I can see which would drain oil into the sump from here.  Again, I don't see how tipping the bike either way would help drain any oil at all from this outer left-side chamber.  Any oil in this chamber "should" drain through that "red" passage into the crank chamber, but there's nowhere for it to go from there.


As for a second drain plug?  Well, here's another pic with some different arrows:



If I recall correctly, the new second drain plug is installed on the flat of the sump, where the pink arrow is, so unless the interior of the casting was changed (no reason it couldn't have been!), it wouldn't drain the crank chamber, just the front end of the sump.  On the surface of it, this seems of limited usefulness, since the only obstructions keeping sump oil from draining are the cast fastener cavities (yellow arrows) which keep just a small amount of oil captive.  A plug which would drain the crank chamber would need to be somewhere just ahead of the sump, like the blue arrow shows - but I don't know about whether it could be done safely there.

All of which led to my post in that other thread:

So, what about draining the oil from the sump, so it won't continue to circulate, and then cycling the engine - just a few turns - maybe without the spark plug installed to encourage faster turning, to try to throw some of that oil out of that chamber?  Waste of time, or worth a try?

[High On Octane]

Glad to see you playing with your spare motor mattsz.   

Without having my own UCE motor to look at, I can only speculate.  But comparing the UCE to a vintage twin pre-unit, there are some definite differences in the crank sump area.  You mention how there is no real way to drain the crank sump area, and based on your finds I would have to agree.  But on the old twins, there is a small valley at the very bottom of the sump area, that has a small brass plate covering it.  This leads to a passage which drains out of the large drain plug near the oil pumps.  And from what I can tell, there is more than 1 oil port that goes to that drain plug, 3 I believe.  The fact that this has been omitted from the UCE design makes me think that there must be some kind of "hidden" passage in that are that we are not seeing.  Again, I can only compare to my twin, but the old engine cases are riddled with very small oil passages that weave throughout the engine case from the oil pumps (both feed and return) to the oil tank and the crank sump area and to the top of the engine case below the cylinders.  These passages are only about 3/16" in diameter, not big at all.  Are you sure that there aren't any of these tiny holes hiding in there anywhere?

[mattsz]

Glad to see you playing with your spare motor mattsz. 

Kid in a candy store...

Are you sure that there aren't any of these tiny holes hiding in there anywhere?

Well, I guess the honest answer is no, I'm not sure.  But I thought I looked around pretty carefully.  The fact remains that when we change the oil, a lot gets left behind - and caricabasso's pic of the oil that remained behind in the crank chamber was eye-opening...

[adi-4004]

This is a great post especially with all the photos. Once the experts chime in, I will know what to do when I change oil.

[ace.cafe]

The Iron Barrels collect oil in the timing case, which can be drained if you dismantle that side of the engine. This amounts to a similar problem with them.

My 2 cents is to change the oil much more frequently than the normal schedule calls for, and don't worry about getting a complete drain each time.

[lemming]

What do folks think of the motor flush products out there? These are oil additives that you add to the engine cold, idle for 5 minutes then drain with the old oil during an oil change. Supposedly the solvents in them dissolve sludge and gunk, so it will flush out more easily with the oil. Still won't get oil out of that sump, though maybe the combination of cycling with oil mostly drained and the solvent would help? Going to go to a more frequent interval, though, to be sure.

[ace.cafe]

What do folks think of the motor flush products out there? These are oil additives that you add to the engine cold, idle for 5 minutes then drain with the old oil during an oil change. Supposedly the solvents in them dissolve sludge and gunk, so it will flush out more easily with the oil. Still won't get oil out of that sump, though maybe the combination of cycling with oil mostly drained and the solvent would help? Going to go to a more frequent interval, though, to be sure.

Flushing won't be good if you can't get nearly a liter of that flush out of the engine, and it stays in there to dilute the oil and possibly wreck the bearings.

Personally, I think the factory should have provided a way to get that oil out, but we have been dealing with it in the Iron Barrel engines for years with the method that I described above. If you change oil often, that liter of old oil gets distributed around with the new, gets filtered of its dirt, and most of it will go out with the next oil change. It actually does work this way. It may not be a perfect solution, but it is a workable solution. Just change oil a lot more often. I found that once a month worked out pretty good, or maybe once every 500 miles.

[caricabasso]

The reversal of the motor to the right or to the left serves to remove the oil which nestles on the lateral parts of the crankcase.
In particular, the right side (photo No. 2) contains at least 300 cc. if you flip the bike to the left, even putting it on the side stand.
Instead to remove the remaining oil on the chamber rod must move the crankshaft several times.
In fact, the flywheel of the engine shaft push the oil towards the rear opening that looks on the gears of the gearbox.
To do this I remove the spark plug  and, after removing all caps, with the pedal kick start I run several times the crankshaft.
After every ride with the kick start you see out the oil from the cap in streams, and continuing until it comes out more.
With all these maneuvers, including the lateral tipping and the forward-back, I can always remove almost all the oil that is there.
I measure the oil that I can always upbeat and I log on maintenance book.
Typically I can raise 2700-2800 cc of oil.
If you download all the oil crankcase can hold 3 liters without exceeding the maximum level.
Obviously I do all this because my B5 does not have the drain plug chamber rod.
The photo in question concerns the Army of a friend of mine who is provided.
I apologize for my bad English that is to google translator, because we Italians have a pathological mental laziness into foreign languages despite leaving schoo

[mattsz]

caricabasso - it seems you have (in your much more interesting and poetic English than mine!  ) corroborated my thoughts about kicking the engine over a few times to drive the standing oil from the crank chamber.

Just change oil a lot more often. I found that once a month worked out pretty good, or maybe once every 500 miles.

Really?  Every 500 miles?  This is the first time I've every heard anyone recommend that kind of oil change interval...

I gotta agree with ACE on the flushing question - I wouldn't do it.  Too much would remain behind...

[lemming]

Flushing won't be good if you can't get nearly a liter of that flush out of the engine, and it stays in there to dilute the oil and possibly wreck the bearings.

Personally, I think the factory should have provided a way to get that oil out, but we have been dealing with it in the Iron Barrel engines for years with the method that I described above. If you change oil often, that liter of old oil gets distributed around with the new, gets filtered of its dirt, and most of it will go out with the next oil change. It actually does work this way. It may not be a perfect solution, but it is a workable solution. Just change oil a lot more often. I found that once a month worked out pretty good, or maybe once every 500 miles.

Instructions are to add it with the oil full, so it blends with the oil. Therefore, what should remain should be a slight solution of the additive and the remaining oil that doesn't drain. Once new oil is added, it would be further diluted. Would this still be a concern?

[ace.cafe]

Instructions are to add it with the oil full, so it blends with the oil. Therefore, what should remain should be a slight solution of the additive and the remaining oil that doesn't drain. Once new oil is added, it would be further diluted. Would this still be a concern?

I guess it depends on the formula, but most motor flushes are oil stripping agents that are fairly harsh. If it is some kind of oil based formula, maybe that would be okay. Typically detergent oil is good at keeping dirt suspended in the oil for pick-up by the filter. The Iron Barrel has a very poor filter unless you add an external one. The UCE is probably much less likely to have sludge deposits built up in it.

[ace.cafe]

caricabasso - it seems you have (in your much more interesting and poetic English than mine!  ) corroborated my thoughts about kicking the engine over a few times to drive the standing oil from the crank chamber.

Really?  Every 500 miles?  This is the first time I've every heard anyone recommend that kind of oil change interval...

I gotta agree with ACE on the flushing question - I wouldn't do it.  Too much would remain behind...

I just did that because oil is cheap and I didn't want to pull my timing cover off at every oil change. Side benefit was that I never had to worry about my oil!
 

Roller bearings and gears and heat are pretty hard on multi-vis oil, so I figured it wouldn't hurt any to change often anyway. Cost of 2 qts of oil was not a concern.

This was just how I dealt with the issue on my bike. I realize that the usual oil change interval is much longer than that.

[caricabasso]

caricabasso - it seems you have (in your much more interesting and poetic English than mine!  ) corroborated my thoughts about kicking the engine over a few times to drive the standing oil from the crank chamber.

Really?  Every 500 miles?  This is the first time I've every heard anyone recommend that kind of oil change interval...

I gotta agree with ACE on the flushing question - I wouldn't do it.  Too much would remain behind...

Thank you for the definition of poetic of my English.
As for the oil that remains on the chamber connecting rod think that however also produces sludge using high quality oil.
My bike has covered 40,000 kilometers, I have always changed the oil every 3500-4000 miles with the system said to me, I always used Motul 5100 15W50.
Yet, when replacing the sproket gear, I also changed the oil seal of the kick starter opening the cover.
In that area the oil stagnates in small amount and a small amount of sludge I found.
However, with that system will discharge almost all the oil and the problem is negligible.

[gashousegorilla]

In another thread, oil changing and levels are being discussed.  Here's a post from our friend caricabasso:

I think we can all agree, that's a lot left behind when you're trying to change your oil.  Conventional wisdom calls for tipping the bike side to side to help drain behind the side covers.  I've been trying to sort this out myself lately (having access to an open engine case) to improve my oil draining, to see how the second drain plug added by the factory would help - and to see whether a second plug might be fitted to the earlier UCE.

As many of you know, I don't know much about what I'm doing here, so this isn't a tutorial or anything - I'm just throwing it up for discussion!

Anyway, here's some photos I took, and annotated to show my understanding of what's happening - and why I'm not sure how tipping the bike helps drain the oil...

As caricabasso reminds us, when the engine is running, the spinning crank throws oil from the crank chamber up and back to lubricate the transmission.

So, first is a pic of the inside of the right-side engine case, showing the crank chamber and the oil sump:



To the lower right of the photo, you can see the small dark circle which is the sump drain plug opening - but notice that there is no opening to drain oil from the bottom of the crank chamber. 

My green line traces where the cases are glued together, so no oil drains into the sump anywhere along that seam.  The blue arrow shows the lowest passage out of the chamber on this side - the shift lever shaft passes through here.  No oil below it can drain anywhere.  The yellow arrow shows a lower passage, but it's between sump and the outside of the case (behind the right-side engine cover).


Here is the outside of the right-side engine case:



The blue arrow shows the shift lever shaft passage from the previous photo - I've got a light behind it to show it clearly.  Also note the yellow arrow marking the same lower passage back to the sump - any oil finding its way from the crank chamber through the shift lever shaft passage (no seal there, so it could happen, I suppose) will obviously run into the sump through the "yellow" passage - but neither passage drains the crank chamber, as seen in the first photo.

I'm not sure what happens with the engine cover on this side, but it appears that oil towards the front of this area, beneath the cams and stator/rotor, will remain captured by the short rearward-tilting baffle plate just to the right of my yellow arrow - the gasket seals this to a matching web in the cover casting.  So I don't see how tipping the bike (a common suggestion for oil changes) helps drain much of any oil from this outer right-side chamber.


To the inside of the left-side engine case:



Another green strip, tracing where the cases are glued together, so no oil drains into the sump along that seam.  Another blue arrow, showing the matching shift lever shaft passage between the left inner and outer cases.  This time, however, the red arrow shows a lower passage between the left inner and outer cases, where oil can pass through...


outside of the left-side engine case:



... but as we see at the red arrow, that passage is at the bottom of the left-side outer case - and it's the lowest passage for any oil to pass out of this chamber.  The high "blue" passage is visible here, too - and there are no other passages I can see which would drain oil into the sump from here.  Again, I don't see how tipping the bike either way would help drain any oil at all from this outer left-side chamber.  Any oil in this chamber "should" drain through that "red" passage into the crank chamber, but there's nowhere for it to go from there.


As for a second drain plug?  Well, here's another pic with some different arrows:



If I recall correctly, the new second drain plug is installed on the flat of the sump, where the pink arrow is, so unless the interior of the casting was changed (no reason it couldn't have been!), it wouldn't drain the crank chamber, just the front end of the sump.  On the surface of it, this seems of limited usefulness, since the only obstructions keeping sump oil from draining are the cast fastener cavities (yellow arrows) which keep just a small amount of oil captive.  A plug which would drain the crank chamber would need to be somewhere just ahead of the sump, like the blue arrow shows - but I don't know about whether it could be done safely there.

All of which led to my post in that other thread:

  For comparison Matt.... Notice the location of the second drain plug located on the newer bikes.  Ummmmmm ?....  would THAT new plug location even drain the oil around the crank webs ?    I certainly don't think all of it ?!   However, with the motor in the bike, and the bike on the center stand.........


http://s907.photobucket.com/user/wildbill2010/media/P1050068_zps94324f0d.jpg.html

[mattsz]

Sorry to put you through this again, GHG!

But that photo speaks volumes - thanks for posting it!  The new plug is not on the flat bottom of the sump after all - it sure looks like it's located to drain the oil from the crank chamber instead - like where the blue arrow is in my last photo.  Wonder if it is...

Too bad one couldn't just drill a small drain hole between the crank chamber and the sump - like right about where the blue upside-down "3" is written in the first photo...