[Faemino]

Hello all,

I just registered. I am from Bilbao, Spain.
Sorry for my English, since for sure will make some mistake   .

I have been riding for a while and currently have Harley Davidson Iron 2016, last of EVO motor pre - Euro IV that I really love. 

I have allways liked the style of the Royal Enfields. This night with the cellular hanging around in Inet in the bed,  I went to know that the 500cc motor have a similar problem with the new Euro V and that RE will discontinue the production. 

Anyway, the thing is that in a RE dealer not to far from my hometown they have a Royal Enfield Classic 500 Tribute Black (the last that they have), and I am considering to buy it.  I will be there on Saturday.
I do not know if you are aware of the Three Wise Men, similar to Santa, that come here in Spain on th 5th night, but it would be a nice gift for myself since I have been reaaaalllly good this year.

But before writing the letter to Los Reyes Magos I would like to ask you about recommendations, flaws or things that I should consider to help me taking a decision.
I am completely newbie. My HD has a wild vibration, not-totally-legal great sound and low rev torque. I think all of them are characteristics of the REs, maybe in a lower and proper manner, but never touched a RE. So, any information will be highly appreciated.

Thanks in advance, guys!

P.S. Here is the bike
https://www.royalenfield.com/es/es/motorcycles/classic-models/classic-500-tribute-black/

[Antipodean Andrew]

Hi Faemino, and welcome to the forum. If you like the look of the Royal Enfield Classic 500 Tribute Black and are fairly certain the bike would suit you, I would buy the bike that is available. You may have a long wait if you have to order a Classic 500. I put a deposit on a Classic 500 in November and the bike is still in India.

I'm sure the RE owners on this forum can give you an idea of what to expect from owning an Enfield.

Happy New year.

[Faemino]

Thanks for the welcome and the quick response AA,

I hope your ride arrives ASAP. I know the sensation of waiting. Mine was seated in the dealer 2 months while I passed the driving license... 
As said in Star Wars: May the Patience be with you!  xD

Happy New Year to all

[axman88]

I have the opinion that Royal Enfield and Harley Davidson occupy much the same position in their relative markets, both building machines based heavily on tradition, and both having a die hard following in their home countries.  One will hear the same mentions of "soul" and "feeling" in discussions about what is great about the makes.

I'll avoid that area and concentrate on discussion of the mechanicals.   Both are air cooled, pushrod engines.  You didn't say, but I'm assuming that you are riding the 883 Iron.  In the US, we also have a 1200 cc version.  In 2016 the Iron 883 would have had a 5 speed transmission and belt drive.

Let's discuss what would change if you switched to an RE Classic 500.
    You'll be giving up considerable torque and horsepower, stepping down from about 49 hp and 54 ft-lbs to around 27hp and 31ft-lbs.  I consider that amount of power quite adequate for what I use my 2012 C5 Desert Storm for, but it does somewhat limit the machine for highway use.  My C5 maxes out at about 120 kph.  Your HD can probably go 150 kph or more.

    ( I regularly ride with a friend who rides an Ironhead HD Sportster, and I'm always out in front, waiting for him, but this has much more to do with riding style and confidence, and not much to do with the machine's capabilities at all. )

In exchange for the lower power, you will get substantially better fuel economy and range.  Both machines have gas tanks about the same size.  Since the RE can get around 30kpl, to the HD's 20kpl, you will be able to ride considerably further on the same amount of fuel.

The RE, is shorter, it's wheelbase is only 1360mm vs the HD 883 at 1515mm, but it is taller, and the seat is several inches taller.  For this reason, if you are a shorter person, you may find the RE difficult to manage at first, even though it is easily 55kg lighter than the HD.

Another difference that you may notice is in the handling.  I think that the HD's considerable more front fork rake, 30 degrees vs the 26 degrees of the RE C5, is largely responsible for this difference, along with the difference in wheelbase.

I have owned and worked on Harleys, and own the 2012 C5 I mention, and consider them to have similar quality of materials and engineering.  I consider the RE C5 to have excellent engineering in terms of it's ease of maintenance and repair-ability, better than any Harley I've ever worked on.  In my opinion, both makes are much better in this respect, than the Japanese bikes I've worked on, which tend to be engineering for more sophistication, rather than simplicity and robustness.

If I were you, even if I bought another machine, I would consider hanging on to your Harley for a bit longer.  You may have heard, Harley Davidson announced some months ago that they were closing their factory in India, where the Iron 883s for the Euro market were being assembled.  I expect that this will result in the value of HD bikes in Europe to increase, but this may take a few years while bikes in available stock are depleted.  So that Harley Iron, if you can keep it in good condition, may appreciate considerably in value, vs what it is worth today.

[Richard230]

In 2010 Motorcycle Consumer News tested the Classic 500 on a dyno and found that it made 19hp at the rear wheel.

[Faemino]

In 2010 Motorcycle Consumer News tested the Classic 500 on a dyno and found that it made 19hp at the rear wheel.

Thanks for the data Richard230!.

[Faemino]

I have the opinion that Royal Enfield and Harley Davidson occupy much the same position in their relative markets, both building machines based heavily on tradition, and both having a die hard following in their home countries.  One will hear the same mentions of "soul" and "feeling" in discussions about what is great about the makes.

I'll avoid that area and concentrate on discussion of the mechanicals.   Both are air cooled, pushrod engines.  You didn't say, but I'm assuming that you are riding the 883 Iron.  In the US, we also have a 1200 cc version.  In 2016 the Iron 883 would have had a 5 speed transmission and belt drive.

Let's discuss what would change if you switched to an RE Classic 500.
    You'll be giving up considerable torque and horsepower, stepping down from about 49 hp and 54 ft-lbs to around 27hp and 31ft-lbs.  I consider that amount of power quite adequate for what I use my 2012 C5 Desert Storm for, but it does somewhat limit the machine for highway use.  My C5 maxes out at about 120 kph.  Your HD can probably go 150 kph or more.

    ( I regularly ride with a friend who rides an Ironhead HD Sportster, and I'm always out in front, waiting for him, but this has much more to do with riding style and confidence, and not much to do with the machine's capabilities at all. )

In exchange for the lower power, you will get substantially better fuel economy and range.  Both machines have gas tanks about the same size.  Since the RE can get around 30kpl, to the HD's 20kpl, you will be able to ride considerably further on the same amount of fuel.

The RE, is shorter, it's wheelbase is only 1360mm vs the HD 883 at 1515mm, but it is taller, and the seat is several inches taller.  For this reason, if you are a shorter person, you may find the RE difficult to manage at first, even though it is easily 55kg lighter than the HD.

Another difference that you may notice is in the handling.  I think that the HD's considerable more front fork rake, 30 degrees vs the 26 degrees of the RE C5, is largely responsible for this difference, along with the difference in wheelbase.

I have owned and worked on Harleys, and own the 2012 C5 I mention, and consider them to have similar quality of materials and engineering.  I consider the RE C5 to have excellent engineering in terms of it's ease of maintenance and repair-ability, better than any Harley I've ever worked on.  In my opinion, both makes are much better in this respect, than the Japanese bikes I've worked on, which tend to be engineering for more sophistication, rather than simplicity and robustness.

If I were you, even if I bought another machine, I would consider hanging on to your Harley for a bit longer.  You may have heard, Harley Davidson announced some months ago that they were closing their factory in India, where the Iron 883s for the Euro market were being assembled.  I expect that this will result in the value of HD bikes in Europe to increase, but this may take a few years while bikes in available stock are depleted.  So that Harley Iron, if you can keep it in good condition, may appreciate considerably in value, vs what it is worth today.

Wow. Thanks for the update and all the info, axman88!.

Of course that I will keep my Iron. That's not negotiable (well, maybe with my wife since I am also after a Slim S 2016 olive green  ). In effect it is the 883 2016 model (I attach a photo). In 2016 they improved the suspension and brakes and was the last year pre Euro IV. The same model in 2017 was modified to comply with it and, e.g., you have to go 1000rpm up to get the same maximum torque. So, 2016 was the best year with all the improvements and no drawbacks. I am afraid that the epic EVO motor will not survive the adapting to Euro VI. Sportsters have now the last EVOs and authentic sound, all the big twins switched to water/oil refrigeration, M8, etc.

As you indicated, with these bikes it is not about the speed or performance, it is more about sensations and feelings.


I would appreciate also some information about drawbacks, things to improve, necessary upgrades...  For example, if someone would ask me for the same for Sporters, I would tell about the IMHO necessary upgrade to Khrome Werks exhausts, reprogramming of the ECU, lowering idle to 850rpm to get celestial music, moustache defense, 160 Avon Cobra rear tire that gives the maximum 167mm that fits directly, forward controls and sissy bar, buy a battery tender and to change ASAP the clutch for a Barnett since the OEM tends to break and destroy the bellhousing.

No problem about the RE measures, I am 182cm and managed almost 400kg bikes. But I have read that some people upgrade the RE Classic to a 19 output pinion (chain sprocket?) since the OEM is quite short. 
Also something about possible small typical problems: The rivets on the small exhaust trim can come loose, the bracket holding the regulator under the seat can break, and the tongue of the negative pole of the battery can break.
Some people says also that you have to fasten the screws of the bike time to time. Is it that true?


Happy New 2021 again. Hope the vaccines work and this year we can ride more!.

 

[Richard230]

Besides the battery cable, the side stand interlock switch is a weak point.

[axman88]

But I have read that some people upgrade the RE Classic to a 19 output pinion (chain sprocket?) since the OEM is quite short. 
Also something about possible small typical problems: The rivets on the small exhaust trim can come loose, the bracket holding the regulator under the seat can break, and the tongue of the negative pole of the battery can break.
Some people says also that you have to fasten the screws of the bike time to time. Is it that true?

I personally disagree with the wisdom of the 19 tooth front sprocket.  Although it will lower cruising rpms by 5.6% I believe it will not increase top speed and there will be compromise in the acceleration from standstill.  But, I use my machine on city streets, and only find myself even using 5th gear a dozen times in a year.  Other folks, with other riding patterns, may prefer the 5.6% reduction in rpm and don't mind slipping their clutch a bit more starting out.

The RE UCE singles may have an issue wherein the primary chain auto-tensioner is too aggressive, and some owners have experienced premature primary chain failures.  The auto-decompressor cam design isn't the most reliable or robust, in my opinion.

I haven't heard any accounts of successfully reprogramming the C5 Keihin ECU, or even being able to read the OBDII data off the serial port.  It seems that most dealers don't even have the capacity.  Most owners who make serious changes to breathing via changes in exhaust and intake filter, use one or another of the aftermarket, add-on "modifiers", that are interposed between the ECU and the injector, and change the injector duty cycle based on their own programming.  Power Commander and Powertronic are the two that seem to dominate for the C5, but there are quite a few others.

There are a few good arguments to be made for converting these machines to carburetor, and some choose that route.   

A biker friend of mine suffers from the "upgrading" syndrome, and with him, it seems that it never ends.  Personally, I prefer the simplicity and economy of a stock machine.  For example, I find I can purchase practically new, stock HD exhausts for around $50, from owners who knew immediately that they would not be satisfied with the sound and performance of the stock silencers, quickly replaced them, and have no use for the original parts.

I agree with the reports of threaded fasteners jumping ship.  I've experienced a few, relatively important nuts disappearing.  Generally though, I find that loose fastenings announce themselves with the appearance of a new, harsh and unpleasant sound, that prompts investigation.

[Faemino]

Besides the battery cable, the side stand interlock switch is a weak point.

Thanks Richard230,
I take note of that also 

[Faemino]

I personally disagree with the wisdom of the 19 tooth front sprocket.  Although it will lower cruising rpms by 5.6% I believe it will not increase top speed and there will be compromise in the acceleration from standstill.  But, I use my machine on city streets, and only find myself even using 5th gear a dozen times in a year.  Other folks, with other riding patterns, may prefer the 5.6% reduction in rpm and don't mind slipping their clutch a bit more starting out.

The RE UCE singles may have an issue wherein the primary chain auto-tensioner is too aggressive, and some owners have experienced premature primary chain failures.  The auto-decompressor cam design isn't the most reliable or robust, in my opinion.

I haven't heard any accounts of successfully reprogramming the C5 Keihin ECU, or even being able to read the OBDII data off the serial port.  It seems that most dealers don't even have the capacity.  Most owners who make serious changes to breathing via changes in exhaust and intake filter, use one or another of the aftermarket, add-on "modifiers", that are interposed between the ECU and the injector, and change the injector duty cycle based on their own programming.  Power Commander and Powertronic are the two that seem to dominate for the C5, but there are quite a few others.

There are a few good arguments to be made for converting these machines to carburetor, and some choose that route.   

A biker friend of mine suffers from the "upgrading" syndrome, and with him, it seems that it never ends.  Personally, I prefer the simplicity and economy of a stock machine.  For example, I find I can purchase practically new, stock HD exhausts for around $50, from owners who knew immediately that they would not be satisfied with the sound and performance of the stock silencers, quickly replaced them, and have no use for the original parts.

I agree with the reports of threaded fasteners jumping ship.  I've experienced a few, relatively important nuts disappearing.  Generally though, I find that loose fastenings announce themselves with the appearance of a new, harsh and unpleasant sound, that prompts investigation.

Many thanks again axman88 for the fast and complete response.

I think that I got a close idea of the issue.
I will try to summarize it all in a list just for myself:

Things to be heads up:
- Loosen screws/nuts. Be attentive to new noises (I don`t have this issue in my HD, but normaly use Loctite threadlocker just in case).
- Primary chain auto-tensioner too aggressive -> premature primary chain failures
- Loose of the rivets on the small exhaust trim.
- Break of the bracket holding the regulator under the seat.
- Break of the plate of the negative pole of the battery.
- Side stand interlock switch (the jiffy stand sensor also fails in HD now and then).

Possible upgrades. I also think that this is not a bike that needs particular upgrades, but just to have in mind:
- 19 tooth chain front sprocket. See sensations after some thousands of km, usually bikes improve the performance after 2000 so maybe it is not necessary.
- Exhaust: I have read about the Red Rooster. Apparently it is not necessary to modify the ECU and can maintain the stock air filter. I take note that it is difficult to remap the ECU and the modifications are usually made by means of intermediate pigtails to "diddle" the ECU (Power Commander / Powertronic). In my experience with HD these pigtails or dongles do not work very well and are not recommendable for the long term.

Tomorrow I will go to the dealer and if the sensations are good, possibly buy the bike.
Thanks!

[Keef Sparrow]

In 2010 Motorcycle Consumer News tested the Classic 500 on a dyno and found that it made 19hp at the rear wheel.

Be aware that manufacturers always quote BHP at the crankshaft. You will always lose a few BHP between the crankshaft and rear wheel on any bike or car due to losses through primary drive (chain on the RE) through bearings and gearbox and then another chain to the rear wheel. These power losses can be considerable and are worse with shaft drive. The genuine HD BHP figure for the rear wheel on a dyno will also be considerably lower than the crankshaft BHP figure Harley will quote. Make sure you are comparing 'like with like'. 

Also bear in mind that a manufacturers quoted BHP figure will always be for a very carefully assembled and probably 'blueprinted' perfectly run-in motor - probably a prototype. The motors in production machines will not be as good - even before being dyno tested for rear wheel BHP by the motorcycle media or trade.

[axman88]

Be aware that manufacturers always quote BHP at the crankshaft. You will always lose a few BHP between the crankshaft and rear wheel on any bike or car due to losses through primary drive (chain on the RE) through bearings and gearbox and then another chain to the rear wheel. These power losses can be considerable and are worse with shaft drive. The genuine HD BHP figure for the rear wheel on a dyno will also be considerably lower than the crankshaft BHP figure Harley will quote. Make sure you are comparing 'like with like'. 

Also bear in mind that a manufacturers quoted BHP figure will always be for a very carefully assembled and probably 'blueprinted' perfectly run-in motor - probably a prototype. The motors in production machines will not be as good - even before being dyno tested for rear wheel BHP by the motorcycle media or trade.

Very true.

Harley has apparently decided to NOT publish any HP figures, for quite a number of years now.  The number I cited was from a magazine review.  A fairer comparison would have been 49hp to 20hp, but I prefer to just go with the manufacturer's numbers when available, since those are readily verifiable, and less likely to start an argument.  To his credit, the OP is apparently secure enough to not be scared off by these numbers.

In my opinion, even dyno results should be taken with a grain of salt.  Usually owners engage these services when they are making an upgrade.  The most satisfied owner under these conditions will be one who sees the biggest difference between before and after, so there may be some motivation to sandbag the before.  Unbiased dyno testing of stock bikes isn't the easiest thing to find.  Even when one does find reliable results, like a magazine review, as you pointed out, this is just one bike.  Every process in manufacturing has variation, even testing.

[Faemino]

Thanks Keef Sparrow and axman88.

I am aware that the real power is usually lower than the one stated by the manufacturer. And quite lower at tyre.

And, in effect, HD does not publish the power of the bikes, but the torque. And this is because it is the fact of having the maximum torque at 3000rpms what makes you smile under the helmet when you open full gas from low revs.

I think something similar happens with RE ( or that is what I hope), that it is more about torque, sensations and happiness that about power.

[9fingers]

Faemino, welcome to the forum and I absolutely think you should buy that new bike! I think you will find similar characteristics to your current engine, excellent torque, vibrations, and good sound, just less of it than your HD. The Enfield will just be easier and more fun to ride, and I do believe that. I think you will find that the Enfield is fast enough for the intended use, as long as you don't expect lots of highway, hi speed travel. Best of luck and Happy New Year!
9fingers