Author Topic: Fitting a carburetor onto a 2013 C5 - my review  (Read 5978 times)

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sagefilio

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on: April 09, 2021, 01:25:06 am
Hello!

It's been a long time since I've posted here, but since I've definitely relied on this forum in the past I figured I'd contribute to it. I also noticed someone asked about carbs on these bikes and that thread devolved a bit, so I figured I'd give this step by step documentation a go.

Some background: I purchased this bike new in 2013. Followed the break in, then took in on a 3000 mile trip (skyline drive/blue ridge parkway, if you have a chance do it). Bike was stock and ran very rich during that trip. I added a K&N filter, D&D exhaust and a PC mapped for those things. Bike still ran incredibly rich, to the point of fouling plugs. I started messing with the tune, and adding an autotuner/wide band o2 sensor to see what was going on. I've been messing with tuning this bike now for 3 years and not getting anywhere. I've read blog posts, bought a book on it even and couldn't get very far without a dynometer. The closest dynotuner that will take non harley's is 100 miles away. So for the cost of a dynotune 100 miles away (+renting a method of getting the bike there) I just purchased the Mikuni Carb kit from Hitchcocks. Something I can much more easily tune to this motorcycle and have experience doing.

Photo of the kit is attached here. It does seem a few things have changed from the photo on Hitchcock's website. The petcock is noticeably different, with a 2 piece nozzle and copper/rubber crush washer included. I've attached a photo of it mounted to the tank. As usual, the machined aluminum parts hitchcocks produces for these (the gas tank cap and manifold) look and feel superb.

The only other thing I'll say so far is the air filter is almost too small for the carb. It took about 20 minutes of cajoling to get it onto the carb. Basically loosening the rubber, and shaving a small bit off of it with the sharp ends of the inlet.

For those wondering it's a Mikuni VM32 with a 185 main and 25 pilot. They supply a size up and down of each for fine tuning.

I'm going to wait till tomorrow to mount and test the stock jetting, and will provide another update with photos then. Also if you're in the market for a perfectly fine fuel pump, injector, K&N filter, Power Commander or autotuner let me know, I'm going to be selling all of it!





Snotball

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Reply #1 on: April 09, 2021, 05:24:31 am
I will be interested to hear how you go with this. I have the carb kit from Hitchcock’s for my 2019 C5 but haven’t fitted it as yet. Did you need to change the stator or pickup? I believe this was necessary with some of the earlier bikes.


gizzo

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Reply #2 on: April 09, 2021, 05:35:54 am
I will be interested to hear how you go with this.
Same. I'm not planning a swap but it's good to see other people's projects.
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suitcasejefferson

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Reply #3 on: April 09, 2021, 07:39:09 am
Replacing the EFI on a UCE bike with a carburetor is by far the best modification you can make. I bought my 2013 B5 Bullet brand new with the intention of doing the carburetor. I would not have otherwise bought an EFI bike.

I had a few problems, but it is difficult to remember the exact details, since it has been 8 years since I did it. And the kit may have changed. Mine came with an Amal carburetor, which I absolutely love. It is as simple as a carburetor can get. And it has a tickler on it just like they used to.

I had a problem getting the throttle cable to fit/work properly. After a lot of fiddling, I resolved that problem by using parts from a big box of spare motorcycle parts I have been collecting for decades.

I was unable to make the choke cable/linkage work, and gave up on it. Since the Amal carburetor that came with the kit had a tickler, I did not need the choke to get it started and I never ride a bike until it is thoroughly warmed up.

The last problem confused me at first. The bike would idle fine, but would cut out when I tried to ride it on the street. I finally decided that the carburetor was not getting enough fuel. I removed the petcock and temporarily connected a larger fitting and fuel line directly from the tank block off plate to the carburetor. The bike ran fine. So again using my box of leftover spare parts and a couple of plumbing parts from Home Depot, I fabricated a fuel line with an inline petcock. I could not find a petcock that would fit the threads in the fuel pump block off plate. That could probably have been done by drilling out and rethreading the hole in the block off plate, but the way I did it worked just fine, and has been on the bike for over 14K miles now without any problems.

Unfortunately the kit I used required retaining the throttle body (wrapped up and stuck in an out of the way place) so that the ECU would still control the ignition. That does eliminate having to pull the flywheel and replace ignition parts, but I would have MUCH preferred to get rid of the ECU and just use a standard CDI ignition, even if it meant more money and more work. But at least I was able to get rid of the failure prone (and VERY expensive)  electric fuel pump and the very poorly designed air filter that leaked all the way around the edges, allowing dirt into the engine.

The bike runs so much better than it did with the EFI that it's hard to find words to describe it. It pulls hard from idle to full throttle, with no more wheezing and hesitation. It has a much richer, fuller sound. Yes, I also have an aftermarket exhaust, but I did the carb conversion first. It made a difference. The aftermarket exhaust just made it that much better. I was amazed that the carburetor was jetted perfectly for both the exhaust and the cone type filter. It no longer runs lean like it did. I can also adjust the idle down to get the proper thump thump thump sound out of it. I love getting gas on my finger when I tickle the carburetor, just like my former (and greatly missed) 1966 Bonneville.

Yes I had to deal with a few problems when installing the conversion. But I have absolutely no complaints about the way it starts and runs. I can't think of any way it could possibly be any better, other than being able to get rid of the ECU.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2021, 07:48:45 am by suitcasejefferson »
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viczena

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Reply #4 on: April 09, 2021, 09:27:36 am
Swapping a ECU against a carb is by far the most dumb modification you can make. It does not convert your bike into an oldtimer. Or into something special or precious. Just into an unreliable bike. That nobody wants to buy, if you ever want to sell it.

see for example https://forum.classicmotorworks.com/index.php?topic=30527.0;topicseen

If you want a carburated bike, buy one. They are cheap. Sometimes cheaper than the EFI-Carb conversion.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2021, 09:34:54 am by viczena »
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AzCal Retred

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Reply #5 on: April 09, 2021, 09:49:43 am
I KNEW you couldn't keep your oar out of the water here!  ;D ;D ;D
Does this mean you are willing to personally drive over to their homes & sort out these machines EFI's, on your own time, on your own dime?
What's dumb is worrying about what other folks spend their recreational dollars on. They had an issue, they found a solution they liked. End of game.
You do you, let the folks that bought their own hardware with their own money do as they will with their own stuff.
Do you need the rest of us to give you a list of the machines you should own and the modifications you should (or shouldn't) make? I know you'd love it.
 

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viczena

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Reply #6 on: April 09, 2021, 10:17:12 am
You can make dumb decision as long as you want. They remain dumb decisions.
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Bilgemaster

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Reply #7 on: April 09, 2021, 02:22:29 pm
From his own Forum and postings here it's abundantly clear that 'Viczena' clearly understands  all of the arcane workings of those electronic fripperies in a way I never shall. When considering any prospective "new" ride I am always happy to learn it is carbureted, and if I owned a UCE Bullet or Conti and its EFI or related systems gave me the least concern, I would be another prime candidate for a Hitchcocks carb conversion, likely preferring an Amal Concentric setup since I've had several, and could likely break down and reassemble them blindfolded, like in Army bootcamp. I'll concede that I'm a bit of a Luddite where all this is concerned. But gravity always works, and it seems that 90% or more of the woes that afflict UCEs have to do with some electro-farkle or other acting up such as fuel pumps or ECUs or the host of other sensors or gimcracks utterly lacking in my "primitivo" Iron Barrel. I lack 'Viczena's' obvious divinitory talents for interpreting ohmages and Amperes, and frankly just don't care to learn them. If I can't fix it with some spray carb cleaner and an air hose, I'm just not interested. On the flip side of the coin, I do recall an earlier thread posted here by someone who'd wanted to "upgrade" their carb to EFI--either an Iron Barrel or an AVL, I seem to recall...though it might have been a Himi or even a home market UCE, both of which came in both EFI and Carby flavors yonder and in some non-US export versions. At the time I'd thought, "Why the hell would anyone want  to do that?" I mean, why would you want to replace a perfectly adequate fueling system that one can replace for like $24 brand new with one so prone to gremlins, where, if the least little hiccup occurred, you'd be looking at maybe a couple hundred bucks worth of prospective fixes? For a pony or three more at the throttle? Not for me, thanks.

So, I well respect anyone's choice to fuel their ride any way that works for them. I also doubt a well done carb conversion would harm resale value, at least here in the States. If anything, it might increase it as a "reliability enhancement". Of course, in Germany, with those white lab-coated TüV (vehicle inspection) guys peering into your ride's  every nook and cranny seeking those Unzugelassenheiten ("unapprovables"), your mileage (or "kilometerage"?) may vary. I doubt many American cars, even some fresh off the lot, would squeak through a German vehicle inspection. So, that's the demanding current in which our man 'Viczena' is swimming.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2021, 03:07:16 pm by Bilgemaster »
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viczena

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Reply #8 on: April 09, 2021, 02:33:39 pm
You are right. It does not make real sense to upgrade from Carb to EFi. Better you buy a new bike. There are some minor exceptions for very special occasions. For example if you have a car engine built into your bike, for which EFi conversions are readiliy available and profoundly tested.

Most EFi problems with Royal enfield bikes are related to contaminated/rusty fuel. Easy fix would be a secondary fuel filter around the fuel pump. And maybe seal the inside of the tank.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2021, 02:40:42 pm by viczena »
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Richard230

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Reply #9 on: April 09, 2021, 02:46:22 pm
My son-in-law bought a well used 1988 Honda CRX for too much money, then removed the engine, bought a new engine and rebuilt it, installed the rebuilt engine, replaced all of the suspension components, brakes. tires, seats and is currently replacing the car's automatic transmission with a well-used 5-speed manual transmission. He likely has sunk close to $10K into that car so far and has only driven it a few hundred miles since he bought it. I have ridden in the car and it rides like a rattle trap, compared with my 1998 rattle trap Saturn. ::)  He is constantly fixing oil leaks and making minor repairs and adjustments. (BTW the car has no ABS. But it still comes to a stop - eventually.  :) )  What a waste of time and money. But it is his time and his money and he apparently has a hobby that he loves that mostly keeps him out of trouble, so there is that.  ;)
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Bilgemaster

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Reply #10 on: April 09, 2021, 03:46:46 pm
My son-in-law bought a well used 1988 Honda CRX for too much money, then removed the engine, bought a new engine and rebuilt it, installed the rebuilt engine, replaced all of the suspension components, brakes. tires, seats and is currently replacing the car's automatic transmission with a well-used 5-speed manual transmission. He likely has sunk close to $10K into that car so far and has only driven it a few hundred miles since he bought it. I have ridden in the car and it rides like a rattle trap, compared with my 1998 rattle trap Saturn. ::)  He is constantly fixing oil leaks and making minor repairs and adjustments. (BTW the car has no ABS. But it still comes to a stop - eventually.  :) )  What a waste of time and money. But it is his time and his money and he apparently has a hobby that he loves that mostly keeps him out of trouble, so there is that.  ;)

Not exactly my cup of tea--I'd rather resurrect a '37 Hupmobile Iron Cloud Deluxe or something, but to his credit, the '88 CRX si100 did make the cut for a series of articles titled, "100 Cars That Matter" at: https://www.motorauthority.com/news/1123551_1988-honda-crx-si-100-cars-that-matter.

I recall my buddy always wanted a CRX, but he wasn't exactly the wrenching sort. In fact, when he moved into his new place he let me have my pick of all of the previous owner's tools and other workshop and some boating gear. Personally, I always held a furtive admiration for those little  '70s Civics like this one, instinctively knowing it might attract a more folklorically costumed class of panhandlers. No rank squeegee-wielders here...


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« Last Edit: April 09, 2021, 03:55:16 pm by Bilgemaster »
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Richard230

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Reply #11 on: April 09, 2021, 04:47:43 pm
When I was stationed in Panama during the mid-1960's I saw a couple of Honda S-800 cars, both the convertible and the fastback coupe. Fast little buggers. I think they had chain drive to the rear wheels. They looked a lot like little MGB British sports cars. I don't think they were ever sold in the U.S., though.  ???
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sagefilio

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Reply #12 on: April 09, 2021, 11:00:41 pm
Hello!

An update; the carb is installed! Lets break this down a bit. First, when removing the EFI you have to unplug a lot of stuff. According to Hitchcocks, for my model year (2013) all but one of these plugs are left unplugged. There is one they provide a resistor plug for. The others can be tucked away. The only downside is the MIL lamp will always be on, but this can be easily bypassed with their supplied directions. Here are some photos of the plugs for your edification:





Next up, the stock airbox is plugged with a supplied plug. Very handy, but there is still the ductwork for cold air. I plan on removing and plugging that up somehow. Any suggestions hive mind?


Now a couple of notes on fitment. Fitting the carb outlet into the rubber boot took me a solid 30 minutes of wrangling. It's not easy, and maybe I'm dumb and there's a trick to it, but I ended up using a vice to hold the carb while using a screwdriver to pop the rubber onto it. Really was a pain. I'll also mention that the throttle cable is almost too short. I'm going to try rerouting it one more time, but as it stands at full right lock it accelerates the bike.

Some other tips! When attaching the cable to the carb start with this end first:


Then connect your cable to the throttle using this hole. It's the only option where I was able to have a complete actuation of the slide, and hitchcocks doesn't specify:


Lastly, I also think the fuel line they provide is too short for the new petcock, I'll ask for another or just make another, haven't quite decided. It works in a pinch, but I could see that line pinching after a while pretty easy:


Finally, it's all installed! Next post will be about tuning. I've given it a ride around the block and off the bat the throttle needs adjusted a bit as well as idle. I don't like the throttle accellerating at full lock, hopefully I can reroute and give myself a little more slack. So far though it's snappy & responsive with no power loss or gain that I can tell off the bat.



sagefilio

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Reply #13 on: April 09, 2021, 11:06:54 pm
I will be interested to hear how you go with this. I have the carb kit from Hitchcock’s for my 2019 C5 but haven’t fitted it as yet. Did you need to change the stator or pickup? I believe this was necessary with some of the earlier bikes.

This kit doesn't require any work to be done to the stator or pickup. It's my understanding that for my model year the ECU only uses engine speed data to set timing. I need to verify that, but so far I haven't noticed any timing issues on my ride around the block. I'll keep an eye on it though. The TPS plug is left unplugged in this kit.


Haggis

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Reply #14 on: April 10, 2021, 12:11:45 am
I used a rubber cover from the back of a car headlight unit.
They come in loads of different diameters to fit.
Off route, recalculate?


AzCal Retred

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Reply #15 on: April 10, 2021, 01:06:09 am
Sagefilio - nice write-up! Pictures are great, really helpful.

I'd toss that braided line and get some barbed fittings, nice US made rubber fuel line, along with a 5 or 10 micron clear filter. Simple is good, if you just keep clean fuel flowing to a Mikuni your issues drop to almost zero.

I'm loving that chromed brass slide!  8)

Well done - ACR -

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gizzo

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Reply #16 on: April 10, 2021, 03:27:28 am
I KNEW you couldn't keep your oar out of the water here!  ;D ;D ;D
Does this mean you are willing to personally drive over to their homes & sort out these machines EFI's, on your own time, on your own dime?
What's dumb is worrying about what other folks spend their recreational dollars on. They had an issue, they found a solution they liked. End of game.
You do you, let the folks that bought their own hardware with their own money do as they will with their own stuff.
Do you need the rest of us to give you a list of the machines you should own and the modifications you should (or shouldn't) make? I know you'd love it.

@viczena seems to have failed to grasp the idea that RE owners buy with their hearts and not their heads. We're going to do what we're going to do.
His opinions are just that. And you know what they say about opinions.... ;)


« Last Edit: April 10, 2021, 03:30:24 am by gizzo »
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viczena

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Reply #17 on: April 10, 2021, 03:51:10 am
You are right. Some RE owners build with their heart and not with their head. Nothing else did I state. Just a more lyric definition.
« Last Edit: April 10, 2021, 03:58:06 am by viczena »
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suitcasejefferson

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Reply #18 on: April 11, 2021, 01:17:00 pm
I've had over 5 decades experience with carburetors, and have never had any problems other than needing to clean a few that either I or someone else left gas in for too long (fuel injectors get dirty too, and they are a whole lot harder to clean) I have a 1997 Kawasaki right now with 118K miles on it, and the carbs have never been off, nor have they ever caused any problems. I did have to pull the engine once, to replace the stator, an electrical part.

No installing a carburetor on a UCE Enfield does not necessarily make it worth more, it depends on the buyer. I have no plans to ever sell mine. But it sure does run a LOT better, and it removes some electronic garbage from the bike and replaces it with mechanical parts. Motorcycles are a hobby to me, and I HATE electronic garbage on motor vehicles, of all kinds. I believe I already mentioned that my carburetor conversion has worked flawlessly for 14K miles. If that isn't proof of reliability I don't know what is. And IF anything should go wrong with it, I can fix it myself.
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viczena

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Reply #19 on: April 11, 2021, 01:22:00 pm
4 of my current 7 bikes also run with Carbs. And I also got them running. That is not the question.

But changing a perfectly working EFi by throwing out most of the sensors, installing a (cheap) carb and still depending on the EFi (which runs in emergency mode) to produce the spark, is just dumb.

Fixing an EFI is much easier (and cleaner) than fixing a carb.
« Last Edit: April 11, 2021, 01:24:42 pm by viczena »
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AzCal Retred

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Reply #20 on: April 11, 2021, 04:15:34 pm
Electronic ignitions preceded EFI on motorcycles by many years. It's not "dumb" to rely on something that's economically & mechanically infeasible for the everyman to retroactively convert to points. It's dumb to use that factoid to support a statement that because the ignition is electronic, the fuel metering must be electronic.

"Fixing an EFI is much easier (and cleaner) than fixing a carb."
For yourself, perhaps, but for most of us it's just a black box that means pricey dealership time. SuitcaseJefferson and others are perfectly happy with the performance they get from their carbureted machines. The "cheap" $200 - $300 carburetors we install work quite satisfactorily if you keep out dirt & water. If they do get plugged up, in virtually all cases the problem can be rectified by simple roadside cleaning methodology. Not so much for EFI. Carburetors are technologically accessible to the everyman, EFI not so much. There are on these pages story after story of folks hamstrung for months or years by their EFI systems. 95% of us don't have your thorough knowledge of EFI or even a desire to do so. If we lived in Germany or a similar heavily regulated environment and HAD to do so, we probably would achieve some skills out of self defense, but for now, we're having a good time tickling our Amal's.

You would do a lot more good here if you created a basic troubleshooting guide for R.E. EFI, maybe posted it on the Technical page and helped walk folks through their issues. Lambasting folks about modifying their own personal hardware to make it more suitable to their personal needs is unproductive and uncalled for. Post a guide & start being supportive, not combative.
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ace.cafe

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Reply #21 on: April 11, 2021, 04:49:09 pm
With Enfields, the ECU is not accessible for program changes. So if a user changes things like intake and exhaust parts which add up needing a fuel metering adjustment, then the user is at a crossroads.

Do I buy a programmable Power Commander(or the like)?
Or,
Do I buy a carb kit?

Undoubtedly, the user's comfort levels with either of these things will play a big part in the decision.
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axman88

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Reply #22 on: April 11, 2021, 05:57:44 pm
The one thing that I very much like about the EFI system, is that it gives reliable starting in sub-freezing temperatures of a machine that I use year around, and park outside.  Reliable, one kick starting down to about 26 degrees F is awesome.  I never had that with carburetors.

Everything else that I prefer, like simplicity, and especially repairability and modest parts cost, favors a carburetor.  Replacing an O2 sensor, a fuel pump, or a throttle body, and especially the ECU, is quite uneconomical relative to the cost of a carb.  Even the fuel injector is over $100.  Failure of one of these critical items while far from home, would likely leave me arranging for a transport service.  Failure of any two of these components, on a machine that is probably worth no more than $2500 in running condition, likely would relegate the old girl to being parted out. 

Alternately, if I have a carburetor, it's likely I can get it back into some sort of operational condition with just the materials on hand.

In my opinion, the used moto market here, by and large, doesn't care much about anything other than title, mileage, but mostly cosmetic condition.  There are no government inspections required for motorcycles, and many low priced, low mileage machines in excellent condition are available.  I doubt that replacing an EFI with a carb. or removing an ABS system would even be noticed by most buyers, if the bike started and ran, and there weren't obvious missing components.

On the day that my fuel pump gives out, I'll get serious about switching to a carburetor.  If and when, I'd like to be able remove all the ancillary components and sell them off as spares.  Doesn't make much sense to me to be bringing along a $300 throttle body, just for the ride.

What options exist for replacing the ECU based ignition system?  Can the existing crankshaft position sensor serve as a pickup coil for an aftermarket electronic ignition?  Somebody talked about a stator change?  To AVL parts?

Does the ECU perform any other functions?  Safety switches, annunciator lamps etc?

I can see the logic of certain forum members advocating in favor of the EFI.  These individuals seem to be in the business of repairing motorcycles, so convincing the world to accept expensive parts and high labor content are a benefit to them.


TrianglePete

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Reply #23 on: April 11, 2021, 10:57:04 pm
I like the way it starts in any weather also

I give away my manifold     and install it for free


viczena

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Reply #24 on: April 12, 2021, 10:41:09 am


Everything else that I prefer, like simplicity, and especially repairability and modest parts cost, favors a carburetor.  Replacing an O2 sensor, a fuel pump, or a throttle body, and especially the ECU, is quite uneconomical relative to the cost of a carb.  Even the fuel injector is over $100.  F

When do these parts ever fail? Normally they live longer than the bike. And the fuelpump is just costly for Re users. It is a 20$ Ebay part. For the 480$ RE calls up you get a racing fuel pump for V8 engines with 2000HP.

The EFI is easy to repair. If something goes wrong, you normally get an error code.  It delivers constant AFR, in any weather, height, climate. The right amount of fuel in every rpm and Throttle combination. And depending on this data also the optimal spark timing for the riding condition. And it adapts to any Ethanol rate of fuel. No Choke. The throttle plate in the manifold is the only mechanical part that could wear out.

So you get optimum torque in all riding conditions, not just at high or low rpm.

And you dont need to clean or repair it on the roadside. (Spilling yourself with gas in this process). Because it just works.


 
« Last Edit: April 12, 2021, 11:06:02 am by viczena »
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viczena

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Reply #25 on: April 12, 2021, 11:24:57 am

You would do a lot more good here if you created a basic troubleshooting guide for R.E. EFI, maybe posted it on the Technical page and helped walk folks through their issues. Lambasting folks about modifying their own personal hardware to make it more suitable to their personal needs is unproductive and uncalled for. Post a guide & start being supportive, not combative.

I did a search in the forum "EFI problems". Not much to see there.

Main Problems:
1. Rust in the tank clogs the fuels filter and the fuel pump itself. Solution: Secondary fuel filter or lining the inner side of the tank
2. Uneven idle rpm. Either leaking manifold or Oil/engine temp sensor
3. Changing rpm while driving. Loose contacts on battery or mass connection.
4. Corroding contacts after +10 years. Some of the connectors are not really watertight. Put a little dielectric grease in the contact area and its done.

Then there are other problems not directly EFi related, as carb bikes would also have these features:
1. Sideswitch defect. Sideswitch relay defect
2. Roll over sensor. Either not properly fixed on the Bike or broken.
3. Problems with PAV or EVAP.

Thats it for the most.

Long before the EFI goes down you get another class of problems with the Royal enfield bikes, where you have to rip out the engine, take it apart and split the case. Can I do it on roadside? No. Do I even want to do it in a workshop ? No.
« Last Edit: April 12, 2021, 11:47:00 am by viczena »
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Bullet Whisperer

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Reply #26 on: April 12, 2021, 01:55:08 pm
This all reminds me of when I was trolled not long ago on youtube and the Hitchcocks forum for fitting a carb to a 535 GT. Did it bother me? Not really. Did the 535GT run and perform better? Without question.
 B.W.


axman88

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Reply #27 on: April 12, 2021, 03:45:02 pm
I did a search in the forum "EFI problems". Not much to see there.

You must not be very good at searching, I find quite a few reports both here and elsewhere on the internet of
    fuel pump failures
    fuel pump relay failures
    TPS failures
    injector failures
    the O2 sensor wearing out at some point is a given

These machines are quite young, the oldest being some 12 or so years old, one shouldn't expect many failures at all.  As they reach 20 years or more, failure of EFI components will likely be commonplace, and with the UCE 500 models discontinued, sourcing parts will very likely be a problem.  Alternatives will be of interest for those who want to continue to use their bikes.

I'll ask my questions again, below.  Please don't respond with more of the same, evangelizing for EFI.  If you have nothing to add to the topic of "Fitting a carburetor onto a C5", I suggest you create your OWN threads.  One could be "Why I like EFI", another could be "Why I prefer ABS", and a third, "Anyone who Disagrees with me is Stupid!".  Please don't turn this thread into another like "Removing ABS". 

Perhaps someone knows:

What options exist for replacing the ECU based ignition system?  Can the existing crankshaft position sensor serve as a pickup coil for an aftermarket electronic ignition?  Somebody talked about a stator change?  To AVL parts?

Does the ECU perform any other functions?  Safety switches, annunciator lamps etc?


viczena

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Reply #28 on: April 12, 2021, 04:00:02 pm
In this forum:

NO TPS failure
NO injector failure
NO O2 sensor wearing out.

Fuel pump relay failure: All relays on the RE are junk. Sidestand, indicator...

So no evidence that the EFI is prone to failures.

Even the fuel pump failures are caused by   shitty cheap rusty tank lining.

On the other side: How many carb failures do you get in 12 years with a RE? Engine failures? hydraulics failures? Ball bearing failures? piston failure? failure in every rubber part?
« Last Edit: April 12, 2021, 04:38:29 pm by viczena »
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AzCal Retred

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Reply #29 on: April 12, 2021, 05:19:01 pm
Two words antithetical to human beings: always & never.  Searching is an acquired skill, but you have to want to find what you are looking for.

Faulty O2 sensor issue
https://forum.classicmotorworks.com/index.php?topic=26237.0

temp sensor/ air leak
https://forum.classicmotorworks.com/index.php?topic=30368.0;all

fuel injector plugged
https://forum.classicmotorworks.com/index.php?topic=30169.msg355437#msg355437

Mystery TPS issue
https://forum.classicmotorworks.com/index.php?topic=24511.0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5IRI8Qy722Y

We all agree that EFI works great when it works well.
Diagnosing EFI is a skill you have to want to acquire, or necessity forces it on you.
Crud in the fuel tank or relay issues can stop your lovely, perfect EFI cold or provide endless hours of flailing fighting symptoms instead of riding.
As far as carb failures, other than a sinking/dissolving float or leaky float needle, the rest of my carb issues have been self inflicted, like leaving fuel in a laid-up machine that turned to plastic goo. All of them were obvious and easily remediable with elbow grease, WD-40 and maybe a cheap part or two. Keeping good fuel filters & air filters on keeps out abrasives & clogging grit, reducing issues to near zero. Is a carb as flexible & adaptable as EFI? Nope, but it's good enough for most of my needs.

By the way, that was a nice list of big picture items to check up front. The next thing is a diagnostic flow chart of troubleshooting components, maybe an explanation of their interaction.
-------------------
Main Problems:
1. Rust in the tank clogs the fuels filter and the fuel pump itself. Solution: Secondary fuel filter or lining the inner side of the tank
2. Uneven idle rpm. Either leaking manifold or Oil/engine temp sensor
3. Changing rpm while driving. Loose contacts on battery or mass connection.
4. Corroding contacts after +10 years. Some of the connectors are not really watertight. Put a little dielectric grease in the contact area and its done.

Then there are other problems not directly EFi related, as carb bikes would also have these features:
1. Side switch defect. Side switch relay defect
2. Roll over sensor. Either not properly fixed on the Bike or broken.
3. Problems with PAV or EVAP.

---------------
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viczena

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Reply #30 on: April 12, 2021, 05:43:28 pm
First one "It had a faulty O-2 sensor .  They adjusted the fuel pump pressure and gave it a general going over."
You cannot adjust the fuel pump pressure. It is 3bar. Thats it. Faulty O2 sensor throws a fault code. Easy to register. These sensors are constantly obeserved by the EFI. And they are very robust. Built by the billions.
They rattled around something and did not know what they are doing. Also happens with carbs.

Second: Air leak of manifold. Also happens with carbs. Not EFI related

Third: plugged injector on a nearly new bike: remains from the factory, gas tank lining or just botch by the factory. Also happens with carbs.

Fourth: unclear. never checked the temp sensor. Never performed the basic check procedure. They poke around without plan. Also happens with carbs.

If you are working with an EFI bike you need a special set of skills and tools: You need to know how to read and understand a workshop manual, a workshop manual, an obd scanner, a multimeter, the ability to read voltage and resistance. And know the difference between the red and the black wire and how to unplug an plug water resistant connectors. If its an EFI related problem, the EFI tells you exactly what is wrong most of the time. In plain english, if you read out the faultcodes with an OBD scanner.

The OBD scanner and a multimeter are for sale, the rest is a kind of education that every 10 year old can achieve. If you are in doubt of a sensor and not the brightest one there is still the way of the layman: Change it with another sensor and look if the error is still there. Nothing too complicated for a workshop. You can even take it from another bike and switch it back later. Just a thing of minutes for each sensor.
« Last Edit: April 12, 2021, 06:19:37 pm by viczena »
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Reply #31 on: April 12, 2021, 05:48:27 pm
What options exist for replacing the ECU based ignition system?  Can the existing crankshaft position sensor serve as a pickup coil for an aftermarket electronic ignition?  Somebody talked about a stator change?  To AVL parts?

Does the ECU perform any other functions?  Safety switches, annunciator lamps etc?

So far I have only seen complete carb swaps that also include the removal of the magneto as well as the ECU.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1RNdSTEhRwY&t=761s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UmiFgKM_lr8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RGPYCpWeJNs

But it looks like that Hitchcocks have a kit where you dont need to totaly dump the ECU and can keep the magneto.
https://accessories.hitchcocksmotorcycles.com/core/media/media.nl?id=141898&c=1062795&h=a6fb4e6f42b1bd888c44&_xt=.pdf




Bullet Whisperer

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Reply #32 on: April 12, 2021, 07:40:25 pm

If you are working with an EFI bike you need a special set of skills and tools: You need to know how to read and understand a workshop manual, a workshop manual, an obd scanner, a multimeter, the ability to read voltage and resistance. And know the difference between the red and the black wire and how to unplug an plug water resistant connectors. If its an EFI related problem, the EFI tells you exactly what is wrong most of the time. In plain english, if you read out the faultcodes with an OBD scanner.

The OBD scanner and a multimeter are for sale, the rest is a kind of education that every 10 year old can achieve. If you are in doubt of a sensor and not the brightest one there is still the way of the layman: Change it with another sensor and look if the error is still there. Nothing too complicated for a workshop. You can even take it from another bike and switch it back later. Just a thing of minutes for each sensor.
I can just about tell the difference between a red wire and a black one, but after that I lose interest. I am not into replacing components, presumably at some cost each time, just to eliminate them and hope it fixes a problem [which, of course EFI systems never have]. Sounds like a lot of unnecessary b***ering about to me, I will stick with carburettors, screwdrivers, spanners and knowing how to apply them.
 B.W.
« Last Edit: April 12, 2021, 07:45:08 pm by Bullet Whisperer »


viczena

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Reply #33 on: April 12, 2021, 07:42:52 pm
For me it is 500 Bucks for the special tools necessary to  fix the Royal Enfield. Beside the normal workshop tools.
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Adrian II

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Reply #34 on: April 12, 2021, 07:44:31 pm
Quote
What options exist for replacing the ECU based ignition system?  Can the existing crankshaft position sensor serve as a pickup coil for an aftermarket electronic ignition?  Somebody talked about a stator change?  To AVL parts?[p/quote]

Hitchcocks' early carb conversions for the EFI Bullets did use the AVL alternator rotor and TCI ignition. I think they worked out it was cheaper to adapt the bike's existing set-up after a while. If you wanted to follow that route, RE India carried on making carburetor-fitted UCE Bullets with TCI ignition until quite recently for the home market, so spares for these from India should be around for a few years yet. Or could an EFI alternator stator be rewound, with a couple of the cores having CDI charging coils?

A.
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Reply #35 on: April 12, 2021, 09:19:42 pm
Tempest in a teapot.

The biggest difference is in the happiness of the user. Pick what you like.
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Reply #36 on: April 12, 2021, 10:26:35 pm
Tempest in a teapot.

The biggest difference is in the happiness of the user. Pick what you like.

Agree.  It's obvious that this has become an emotional rather than a rational discussion.  When emotions get engaged, facts don't matter.  I suggest it's time to stop trying to teach a pig to sing.  It's a total waste of time and really annoys the pig.

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Reply #37 on: April 13, 2021, 01:10:08 am
Hello!

Yeah y'all really go wild, I'm just trying to show others my process for mounting this mikuni carb kit I picked up from hitchcocks.

That being said, I've hit kind of a snag. It seems that the cable they supplied with the kit is too short. I'm having my moto mechanic friend come over to confirm this.

Stock VM32s need about 85mm of cable outside of housing to function, according to mikunioz. I think this is on a single pull throttle setup without buttons etc, but I could be wrong. The cable they supplied came with roughly 100mm of cable outside the housing, shown here:


When installed on the carb this only leaves about 10mm of cable to attach to the throttle:


As we know, the stock setup for the throttle body is a push/pull setup built into the right hand controls. I'm trying to keep my controls stock, as they work fine. You can really use either hole, but each one I try puts too much tension on the cable and raises the slide. To clarify, all of the cable fittings on both the carb and cable itself are totally tight. It has as much open cable as can be had. Here are the holes I'm talking about:



I've played with the routing and there doesn't seem to be any pulling on the housing the way I currently have it routed. Granted I'm sure there's the normal amount of pull going from full lock. As it stands I'm talking with Hitchcocks about it, but it seems like this is indeed the length they send out with the kits, there wasn't a mess-up there. I'm just not entirely sure they mounted it to the stock throttle tube. I also know these mikunis are somewhat new for them, as previously they offered amal carb conversions. I also noticed the carb they sent is somewhat different than the one pictured, mainly because the choke lever is swapped.

Any thoughts here? am I missing something dumb? If they can't get me a cable that fits I'll just make one, but soldering is a pain.


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Reply #38 on: April 13, 2021, 03:47:26 am
Sagefilio: The twistgrip rotor ( PART No. 581098 ; TWISTGRIP ROTOR, C/W RUBBER, RH. ) has two stops built in to limit rotation open & closed. You can adjust the polyethylene rotor travel in the closed direction by removing material. You can also drill your own hole closer to the stop. Worst case you buy a new rotor for about $14. I've had to modify these even on my old Bullet, so there's nothing new here. Moving the hole and/or filing away the stop will give you a bit more closed travel, effectively adding inner wire length. You need the stop to prevent overtravel and cable kinking if you manually close the throttle hard. I had to add a #10 screw to create a closed stop, then fine tune the rotor with a file to get proper slide closing. It's a trick...

I would pull the throttle cable free where I could see all of it and then fiddle with the cable travel. That way you know it works on the bench, as it were. Just set the carb on a box near the throttle & hook it up, you want to see & hear the slide snap home.   
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viczena

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Reply #39 on: April 13, 2021, 06:50:26 am
I can just about tell the difference between a red wire and a black one, but after that I lose interest. I am not into replacing components, presumably at some cost each time, just to eliminate them and hope it fixes a problem [which, of course EFI systems never have]. Sounds like a lot of unnecessary b***ering about to me, I will stick with carburettors, screwdrivers, spanners and knowing how to apply them.
 B.W.

That is just the layman version. The 10 year old, who understands simple elctronics, will not need it.
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axman88

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Reply #40 on: April 13, 2021, 06:54:07 am
So far I have only seen complete carb swaps that also include the removal of the magneto as well as the ECU.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1RNdSTEhRwY&t=761s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UmiFgKM_lr8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RGPYCpWeJNs

Hitchcocks' early carb conversions for the EFI Bullets did use the AVL alternator rotor and TCI ignition. I think they worked out it was cheaper to adapt the bike's existing set-up after a while. If you wanted to follow that route, RE India carried on making carburetor-fitted UCE Bullets with TCI ignition until quite recently for the home market, so spares for these from India should be around for a few years yet. Or could an EFI alternator stator be rewound, with a couple of the cores having CDI charging coils?
A.
Quote

Thanks guys!  Wonderful. Excellent info.  The young man in the video is showing many part numbers for replacement parts.  He appears to be replacing the multi-node EFI rotor with the earlier single node rotor, and even changes the wire harness to clear away the unused connector.  This shows the way I'd envision switching from EFI to carb., clearing away the ECU and unused sensors and connectors, replacing stator and rotor with
 single pulsar type, use ignition module compatible with the crankshaft trigger, replace MIL with ampmeter, replace EFI tank with the earlier tank with petcock, and drill and tap the exhaust sensor port to take a wide band O2 for tuning.  Appears that these guys even retain the original air box, which also appeals to me.

Is this an aftermarket TCI ignition being installed at this point?  https://youtu.be/UmiFgKM_lr8?t=874   

I wish I could understand Hindi!


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Reply #41 on: April 13, 2021, 10:00:32 am
Personally I like the efi on my 2018 Bullet.
When I had Triumphs back in the 60s and 70s they had amal carbs. Earlier models had the monoblock version which was a pain, later bikes had the concentric which was so easy to work on and even easier to tune. My various Bonnevilles had twin concentrics which could be balanced by disconnecting one, checking tick over speed, then doing the same with the other carb - basic but it worked!
I even looked at replacing the single monoblock on a 500 Speed Twin with a Wal Philips fuel injector - so glad I didn't, I later read that the injector never worked properly.
Upshot is I will stick with the efi until I replace the bike with the 650 twin or the 535.
If all about you are panicking then you've missed something important


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Reply #42 on: April 13, 2021, 11:04:10 am
Jeez this OLD walnut brings out the Pontificating (and false statements) so +1 to those posting that it's YOUR choice with YOUR money and -1for those telling you what to do! Personally I want the disc brake and efi  on my 2014 C5, but my 56 MGA has drums brakes, carbs and a dynamo, would I change any of them NO WAY! but restoring a big Healey, Yes on disc conversion (safety), Yes on alternator (marginal on starting unless battery FULL), No on efi conversion..... Replacement fuel pump does not NEED to be expensive, never had an injector fail, but same with carbs, so, Guy's YOUR MONEY YOUR CHOICE
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Reply #43 on: April 13, 2021, 12:55:43 pm
Sagefilio: The twistgrip rotor ( PART No. 581098 ; TWISTGRIP ROTOR, C/W RUBBER, RH. ) has two stops built in to limit rotation open & closed. You can adjust the polyethylene rotor travel in the closed direction by removing material. You can also drill your own hole closer to the stop. Worst case you buy a new rotor for about $14. I've had to modify these even on my old Bullet, so there's nothing new here. Moving the hole and/or filing away the stop will give you a bit more closed travel, effectively adding inner wire length. You need the stop to prevent overtravel and cable kinking if you manually close the throttle hard. I had to add a #10 screw to create a closed stop, then fine tune the rotor with a file to get proper slide closing. It's a trick...

I would pull the throttle cable free where I could see all of it and then fiddle with the cable travel. That way you know it works on the bench, as it were. Just set the carb on a box near the throttle & hook it up, you want to see & hear the slide snap home.

Yeah, I'm imagining I'll have to either do what you suggest with the twist grip rotor (we call those throttle tubes in the states) or replace the cable with something longer and custom made (soldering... fun). Just a shame that they don't supply the proper cable for their kit is all. You'd think others would have complained about this, but I'm guessing these aren't flying off the shelves so to speak.


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Reply #44 on: April 13, 2021, 03:12:37 pm
Sagefilio - Trickier but doable is work an end cap off of the cable and CAREFULLY cut back some of the cable housing wire coils. A pair of good nippers and a Dremel with suitable grinders should do the trick. That's contingent on the entire cable being long enough, of course...
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sagefilio

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Reply #45 on: April 18, 2021, 03:40:43 pm
Quick update here: I've been going back and forth with Hitchcock's about the cable not working.

After seeing their photos of their own carb and it's setup, I had a hunch they sent me the wrong carb. After measuring it they in fact had sent me a mikuni VM36, not VM32.

Hitchcock's has been great, they apologized for it, apparently all of their carbs come to them prepackaged and this VM36 must of gotten into the mix from the supplier by accident. They're sending out a new VM32, I'll get it mounted and hopefully the cable will have plenty of play to adjust!

I've got some parts from this swap that I'd like to offer up to members here, think I should start a new thread or post it here?


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Reply #46 on: April 25, 2021, 08:54:33 pm
 I bought my bike with all the Hitchcocks tuning already on it and carb. I sort of understand carbs. I don't understand electronics or computors. I have the type of brain that has trouble understanding concepts. Carbs are mechanical. I can look at it and understand it, and I grew up with carbs. I don't even have a mobile phone. I'm not surprised you had trouble with a 36, a 32 Amal only just fits.....