[AK Mike]

Greeting all,

Looks like I'm leaning toward getting a new Himmy.  And it looks like I have the choice of getting one either with ABS or without ABS.  So, which would you choose if you had the choice?

I'm planning on doing some dirt and gravel, but nothing "technical" where having ABS would be a real liability.  I know for those who do serious off-roading the choice would be to not have it.  On this low-power bike, does having ABS really make it safer on the road?  I'm all for safety, but I'm also all for keeping things as simple as possible.  So what say you good folks?

Thanks as always.

[Arizoni]

Except for the last crash I had, if my motorcycle had been equipped with ABS, I never would have crashed all of those other times.
It's not as though I crashed a lot of times over my last 50+ years of riding but every one of them was the result of the front wheel locking up under heavy braking on a wet street.
Oh, and then there's the time I was riding on a dirt/gravel road and braked hard and the front wheel locked up for a second or so.  I didn't crash but that damn loose gravel is worse than wet streets IMO.

Get the ABS.  It might save your butt some day.

[mattsz]

I know the ABS system adds complexity, but I don't know how reliable it is, or whether its failure could cause problems, other than the obvious: no anti-lock protection.

Although you'll find some, ahhh... experienced riders...  who reject the very idea of ABS on their motorcycle out of principle, I think there would be very few who would argue that having ABS doesn't add a level of safety in at least some riding conditions. But can't you disable the ABS whenever you wish?  Some bikes have a switch; I think I recall reading somewhere that to disable the Himi's ABS you have to pull a fuse, which is a hassle on that bike?  If it's a dedicated fuse, I would think that it would be pretty easy to add your own switch, so you can easily turn it off if you unexpectedly wander off your dirt road and into the ISDT.

Would the non-ABS bike be very much cheaper?  If not, and if it can be disabled it at will, I'd probably go for it...

[AK Mike]

As always, I really appreciate the replies from the "Grand Gearheads" 

Sounding like ABS is the way to go.  I've never had a bike with ABS before, but I've also never experienced a front-wheel lock-up, and don't particularly want to.  As far as I know, the ABS cannot be disabled on the Himmy easily.  And the fact that I'm not planning to use it off-road in a manner where that would be a problem, there probably is no need for me to mess with it.

The non-ABS version is about $250.00 cheaper than the ABS model, so it's not a huge outlay to get that extra safety.  Sounds like cheap insurance to me.

Thanks again.

[Arizoni]

Since you've never "been there", when the front wheel locks up, even for just an instant, the front tire will skid to the side and the whole front end of the motorcycle suddenly falls rapidly to the opposite side and the rider is thrown off.  This is commonly called a "high side" and the landing is not pleasant.

When a motorcycle "low sides" with the rear wheel slipping out to the side, you can usually feel it coming and kick off of the pegs and let the motorcycle slip out from under you without much damage to you.
With a "high side" everything is going good and then suddenly, usually under brakeing, the front wheel slips and, POW.  There you are, landing on your head or shoulder.

[gashousegorilla]

   What he said about locking up that front wheel  ^^^^.       It can happen in a blink of an eye, particularly in an emergency stopping situation on a slick road.   Banged up and a couple broken ribs later.      Or on a nice lazy Sunday ride  and should a deer hop out in the road between you and your buddy behind you ... and your buddy lock's them up.   And  gets banged up with a couple broken ribs and a totaled bike.     It's that unexpected and sudden braking that does it I think.   Having control of the bike in those moments are well worth it I think....   

[mattsz]

As always, I really appreciate the replies from the "Grand Gearheads" 

Hey, I have more posts than gashousegorilla - I must know more than he does...

[gashousegorilla]

  You is WAY smarter then me Matt !!!   

[mattsz]

  You is WAY smarter then me Matt !!!   

Please see the end of my previous message.

There, aren't we all glad the thread was unlocked again so I could continue to contribute? 

[AK Mike]

All of you guys (grand gearheads or not) are way smarter than me, so I really appreciate your wisdom and experience.  Thank you again.

[gashousegorilla]

Please see the end of my previous message.

There, aren't we all glad the thread was unlocked again so I could continue to contribute? 

 Hahaha !  Yes, I saw it Matt.     And yes , I am glad ! 

  Now ... I am not an off road rider by any stretch .   I little here and there and when I was a kid on a dirt bike.   Someone please explain to me why ABS off road is not so good ?   I read varying opinions about it and etc.   There is on road ABS and off road ABS now apparently ?   I know  that with anything loose , wet , slick or snowy with ABS on a car or truck is great .    But why not on a bike ?  ....    Anyone ?

[Arizoni]

Racing type off the road riders like to lock up their rear wheel to skid their motorcycles sideways to make fast turns.  At least that's what they tell me.

I don't know one of them who wants a powerful front brake though.  They like those little drum brakes on the front to keep them from locking up their front wheel so, aside from the little bit of weight gain ABS causes, I don't know why they have a problem with it.

For anyone who wants to ride sane way, I don't know why anyone would want to have any kind of brake that can lock up on soft dirt or gravel.

[mattsz]

I have no experience with ABS, and no opinion about whether it's good or bad in various unique circumstances.  I've heard the same as AK Mike, but I don't know the reasoning behind the concerns...

[tooseevee]

All of you guys (grand gearheads or not) are way smarter than me, so I really appreciate your wisdom and experience.  Thank you again.

            I ain't way smarter than nobody  Grand Gearhead is just a number that shows, in my case, that in another time another place, I'd be riding more than pecking away on this infernal computer machine at all hours of the day and night  I may know something that somebody else may not know, but that ain't smartness. I was just cursed with being a detail and history and research freak at a very young age and also stubborn as a mule over things I don't think work right and that runs the gamut from earthworms to motorcycles/cars and government.

             PS: I know nothing about ABS except that it worked well once on my '95 Taurus in '97 or '98 in a panic stop situation. I remember it well. It was the first time I had felt it work. It's never ever come up again since then with the 7 or 8 cars I've had since. Overall impression? It's a good. 

[Richard230]

 Hahaha !  Yes, I saw it Matt.     And yes , I am glad ! 

  Now ... I am not an off road rider by any stretch .   I little here and there and when I was a kid on a dirt bike.   Someone please explain to me why ABS off road is not so good ?   I read varying opinions about it and etc.   There is on road ABS and off road ABS now apparently ?   I know  that with anything loose , wet , slick or snowy with ABS on a car or truck is great .    But why not on a bike ?  ....    Anyone ?

ABS doesn't work well in the dirt, or any loose surface, because when you go to stop, technology takes over (like a Boeing 737-8 Max) and when the ABS feels the tires start to rotate at different speeds it cuts the braking until the wheel speeds match.  Which they usually won't - leaving you without brakes and heading for the nearest tree, ditch, or cliff, without any brakes at all.  Some newer ABS systems designed for off-road riding just work on the front wheel and let the rear wheel skid to brake the bike (or for other off-road riding purposes).  However, most experienced dirt riders would rather not have the system at all and prefer to control braking with their own hands, reactions and brains.  Me, included.

The other thing I don't like about ABS is that it is more complicated to flush and replace the fluid in the braking system, which can be much more time consuming and expensive if you have a dealer do it.  BMW dealers charge an hour extra to change brake fluid on their bikes and it requires hooking the bike up the BMW shop computer to operate the various valves of the ABS controller to move the fluid out of the system and replace it with clean fluid.  Who wants to do that?  Plus, it is much easier to keep air bubbles out of a simple brake system than a complicated one that has twice the number of hoses that are routed all over the bike, here and there.

But ABS systems do make EU regulators happy as they are concerned more about the safety of their taxpayers than the cost of new technology, its complication, the trouble that a motorcycle owner might have renewing the brake fluid on their bike, or the fact that it doesn't work when riding off-road.   

[Dr Mayhem]

I don't know anything specifically about the Himalayan anti-lock brakes, but with the 650 twins on dirt you can see in the dirt how the brakes are being momentarily applied, 6-7 times per tires revolution and you do come to a full stop while staying hard on the brakes

[gashousegorilla]

   Good stuff boys.     So my take is ...

   If you are hard core off roader and or racer and you hate the government telling you that you have to have it .... ABS sucks !  Hahaha ! 

  For most everyone else ... in particular with these bikes , which are not really dirt bikes and will spend most time of the time on hard pavement.... it's a good thing.

[ody04]

I feel ABS is must if you are planning to drive on tarmac, yesterday I went for a ride in norcal mountains with lot of twists and turns. In one of the corners which is almost like a u turn suddenly a car crossed the line and came straight in to as I was leaning already at about 40miles speed with out ABS I would have certainly crashed. Bike performed beautifully in mountain roads handling is a breeze. Gravel roads I am yet to try. Will update once I have done that.

[Dr Mayhem]

I feel ABS is must if you are planning to drive on tarmac, yesterday I went for a ride in norcal mountains with lot of twists and turns. In one of the corners which is almost like a u turn suddenly a car crossed the line and came straight in to as I was leaning already at about 40miles speed with out ABS I would have certainly crashed. Bike performed beautifully in mountain roads handling is a breeze. Gravel roads I am yet to try. Will update once I have done that.

So you applied too much brake and momentarily lost traction, is this correct? Which tire was it? Do you remember exactly what you felt the bike/tire do at that instant?

[bigm]

I would strongly recommend you to get a bike with ABS. All these reviewers who say that himalayan the rear will not lock and you will not get the feel of an dirt bike. Who said himalayan is a dirt bike. It was meant for all terrains not for dirt bike stunting.
Please buy a bike with ABS because anyhow you will not feel like making it jump and roll because its heavy but purposeful.

Please check mileage of himalayan in this video. Please appreciate if you like my video.

http://soulfulbiker.com/royal-enfield-himalayan-mileage-test/

[mattsz]

ABS doesn't work well in the dirt, or any loose surface, because when you go to stop, technology takes over (like a Boeing 737-8 Max) and when the ABS feels the tires start to rotate at different speeds it cuts the braking until the wheel speeds match.  Which they usually won't - leaving you without brakes and heading for the nearest tree, ditch, or cliff, without any brakes at all.

I guess this is the kind of thing I've heard about - no experience myself, either with ABS or with proper dirt riding.

Richard, has the effect you described happened to you?

[Richard230]

I guess this is the kind of thing I've heard about - no experience myself, either with ABS or with proper dirt riding.

Richard, has the effect you described happened to you?

No. I don't ride in the dirt, but I have talked with people who do and read lots of magazine articles written by people who do a lot of off-road riding. To a man, they all say that ABS can cause the bike not to stop on loose surfaces, especially when riding down a hill. The ABS system feels the wheels rotating at different speeds and "thinks" they are slipping so it cuts braking until the wheels start turning at the same rate, which might not happen when one wheel hooks up and the other wheel doesn't on a loose surface with varying traction. 

That is why many ADV models now coming on the market have a switch that allows the rider to turn the system off.  Others have a setting for off-road riding that turns off the system for the rear wheel, but keeps it working on the front wheel. You will see these features showing up on most current European ADV models such as BMW, KTM, Ducati and Triumph brands. They wouldn't be offering switchable ABS systems unless they felt their customers needed or demanded them.

In my case, I have owned BMW motorcycles that have had ABS for the past 12 years and not once has the system activated and done anything other than increase the complexity and expense of my braking system, along with resulting in fluid replacement costs that had to be performed by a BMW dealer at a 2-hour labor charge. So for me, ABS seems to be a waste of money. Having been riding for 57 years without it and I have only experienced a rear wheel skid once, so it just isn't something that makes sense to me.   

[ody04]

So you applied too much brake and momentarily lost traction, is this correct? Which tire was it? Do you remember exactly what you felt the bike/tire do at that instant?

The front brake with out ABS it would have locked up and crashed, at the same time I applied back brake which is not advisable in the corners as there will not have much traction. Its the rear tire that skid little bit and dragged sideways as I was leaning. The bike did not lose control because the front tire was not locked up. Its a left hand turn just an FYI

[mike_bike_kite]

Since you've never "been there", when the front wheel locks up, even for just an instant, the front tire will skid to the side and the whole front end of the motorcycle suddenly falls rapidly to the opposite side and the rider is thrown off.  This is commonly called a "high side" and the landing is not pleasant.

When a motorcycle "low sides" with the rear wheel slipping out to the side, you can usually feel it coming and kick off of the pegs and let the motorcycle slip out from under you without much damage to you.
With a "high side" everything is going good and then suddenly, usually under brakeing, the front wheel slips and, POW.  There you are, landing on your head or shoulder.

That's not a highside I'm afraid. A highside is when a bike has a sudden and violent rotation around its long axis. The rider is usually thrown over the top of the bike. It's usually caused by over accelerating in corners and then loosing traction on the rear wheel then, when the rider lets off the throttle, the rear wheel suddenly bites and everything suddenly goes south. Here's a quick video of a highside in action, it happens in the first 20 seconds. Personally I wouldn't ride a bike without ABS these days.

[Arizoni]

While I totally agree that the cause of a high side can be caused by the rear wheel skidding to the side and then suddenly re-gaining traction, I'll stand by my comment that the front tire suddenly skidding to the side can cause a "high side" crash.

When the front wheel locks up and it suddenly skids to the side, it will instantly cause "a sudden and violent rotation around its (the motorcycles) long axis" (to quote your definition).

[olhogrider]

While I totally agree that the cause of a high side can be caused by the rear wheel skidding to the side and then suddenly re-gaining traction, I'll stand by my comment that the front tire suddenly skidding to the side can cause a "high side" crash.

When the front wheel locks up and it suddenly skids to the side, it will instantly cause "a sudden and violent rotation around its (the motorcycles) long axis" (to quote your definition).

Stand by all you like but it's the same as calling a bagel a donut just because it has a hole in it. A high side is when the rear slides out, then suddenly catches and catapults the rider over the high side! If the front or rear slides out and the bike drops to the pavement, that's a low side.

What I found out riding the INT in dirt is that the smooth, road going tire will slide as soon as you apply the brakes. The ABS kicks in and no matter what you do, you have no brakes! Once I put an off road tire on, it would grab the dirt and slow down. The ABS only came into play on pavement since the knobby wouldn't grab asphalt.

I have had two broken bones in my 50+ years of riding. Both were caused by a locked front brake. ABS would have saved my bike and my bones both times. The real world can be a dangerous place. ABS can lessen the danger and there's almost no downside (or low side )

[olhogrider]

https://youtu.be/tt8Lw57K3jI

This should help.

[Arizoni]

Whatever it is called, you end up being thrown forcibly off motorcycle and land on your shoulder or head.

Not a good thing, in my opinion.

[mattsz]

Whatever it is called, you end up being thrown forcibly off motorcycle and land on your shoulder or head.

Not a good thing, in my opinion.

Something we can all  agree on!