[AzCal Retred]

Zim - New one to me - Thanks! Good write up in Motorcycle Cruiser link.

http://allamericanracers.com/alligator-motorcycle-dan-gurney-post/

https://www.autoweek.com/car-life/a1689106/gurney-alligator-when-racing-legend-designed-and-built-his-own-radical-motorcycle/

https://www.motorcyclecruiser.com/riding-dan-gurneys-alligator-motorcycle/
So, I liked the Alligator. A lot. But then I'm not one who's buffaloed by social expectations. There are only three things this bike has going against it--cost, proof of reliability and perception. Time is likely to mend the first two ills. The fact that it isn't exactly orthodox is the Alligator's real challenge. Can you see outside the box? I'll be curious to see how many of us can.


SPECIFICATIONS
MSRP: $35,000
Weight: 320 lbs.
Wheelbase: 60 in.
Rake/Trail: 24-degrees/3 in.
Seat Height: 18 in.
Engine Type: 670cc air-cooled 4-stroke single
Compression Ratio: 12:1
Carburetion: EFI
Minimum Fuel Grade: 92 octane
Wheels: Dymag 17-in. front and rear
Front Tire: 120/70
Rear Tire: 180/55
Front Brake: 330mm dual discs/Honda
Rear Brake: 220mm single disc/Brembo/Ferodo
Front Suspension: 43mm inverted cartridge fork

[zimmemr]

Zim - New one to me - Thanks! Good write up in Motorcycle Cruiser link.

http://allamericanracers.com/alligator-motorcycle-dan-gurney-post/

https://www.autoweek.com/car-life/a1689106/gurney-alligator-when-racing-legend-designed-and-built-his-own-radical-motorcycle/

https://www.motorcyclecruiser.com/riding-dan-gurneys-alligator-motorcycle/
So, I liked the Alligator. A lot. But then I'm not one who's buffaloed by social expectations. There are only three things this bike has going against it--cost, proof of reliability and perception. Time is likely to mend the first two ills. The fact that it isn't exactly orthodox is the Alligator's real challenge. Can you see outside the box? I'll be curious to see how many of us can.


SPECIFICATIONS
MSRP: $35,000
Weight: 320 lbs.
Wheelbase: 60 in.
Rake/Trail: 24-degrees/3 in.
Seat Height: 18 in.
Engine Type: 670cc air-cooled 4-stroke single
Compression Ratio: 12:1
Carburetion: EFI
Minimum Fuel Grade: 92 octane
Wheels: Dymag 17-in. front and rear
Front Tire: 120/70
Rear Tire: 180/55
Front Brake: 330mm dual discs/Honda
Rear Brake: 220mm single disc/Brembo/Ferodo
Front Suspension: 43mm inverted cartridge fork

For the record Jamie Elvidge hired me and was my boss for my first three or so years at Cruiser. She was an exceptional rider an outstanding writer
and a pretty decent boss.

[cyrusb]

A swayback motorcycle? Looks like the answer to the question nobody asked..
 

[Richard230]

The blue Alligator is the one that I recall from a motorcycle magazine test when it was introduced to the press. I can't recall ever seeing the red version. 

[axman88]

It seems to me that the machine in Fortnine's video on recumbent technology would much more properly be called an "electric bicycle", not a "motorcycle".  The folks who dreamed it up, call it a "Light Electric Vehicle", and the specs are consistent with other vehicles that have been presented in the realm of bicycles.     https://www.electrom.ca/

With less than 5 horsepower, it's not what most riders in the west think of as a "motorcycle".

It is, however, exactly the kind of revolutionary, blank sheet design that I was hoping to discuss in the thread I started titled "E-Bike Developments", but that thread devolved into 38 pages of complaining about government conspiracies with a dozen posts interspersed discussing various types of electric motorcycles, and very very little discussion about "Light Electric Vehicles".

I believe that the kind of person who might be interested in a Light Electric Vehicle, will be much less concerned about how things have been done since 1905, and much more open to new ways of doing things.  There are already scores of designs out there, with 2, 3 and 4 wheels, pods and capsules and peculiar shaped vehicles of all kinds.
https://micromobilityreport.com.au/features/annual-guides/what-is-a-light-electric-vehicle/
https://cleantechnica.com/files/2020/11/Daymak-Avvenire-Lineup.jpg

The safety of these vehicles will be greatly enhanced when another development, already in process, becomes commonplace.  This is the Vehicle  Location and Identification system that was discussed (and lambasted) here in the forum under the guise of new laws proposed in the UK prohibiting vehicle tampering.  The downside was recognized, but the upside is that if the VEHICLE the other idiot is driving, can see me, I don't need to be as concerned that the idiot does NOT see me.  Small, low, efficient vehicles, like the Electrom, will be just as large in a computer's purview, and just as much to be avoided, as any SUV or pickup truck, provided all are equipped with the transceivers that will be required.

I was reading recently about vacuum tube technology.  The article stated that, for all their reputation of wildness, rock guitarists are extremely traditional, and this has preserved the vacuum tube well after its predicted demise.  I'd say that for all their reputation, motorcyclists are every bit as conservative as rock guitar players, and likely more so.

[gizzo]

I was reading recently about vacuum tube technology.  The article stated that, for all their reputation of wildness, rock guitarists are extremely traditional, and this has preserved the vacuum tube well after its predicted demise.  I'd say that for all their reputation, motorcyclists are every bit as conservative as rock guitar players, and likely more so.

This.

[GlennF]

I was reading recently about vacuum tube technology.  The article stated that, for all their reputation of wildness, rock guitarists are extremely traditional, and this has preserved the vacuum tube well after its predicted demise.  I'd say that for all their reputation, motorcyclists are every bit as conservative as rock guitar players, and likely more so.

Technically there are a lot of advantages.  Both in the music industry and in high end audio applications.  This is not just in peoples imaginations, see the links below.

Basically valve amplifiers when lightly overdriven add a subtle richness to the sound whereas solid state amplifiers just sound harsh and more importantly the type and amount of harmonics introduced by a valve amp are controllable by the musician, something a solid state amp can only emulate by fancy electronics.

Solid State amps on the other hand, do tend to be less expensive, lighter and less fragile and so are popular in areas where a "squeeky clean" sound is traditional, like Jazz or Country, and are especially tempting if you do not have the luxury of touring with a large pantech and a road crew.


https://www.techradar.com/uk/news/the-physics-of-why-valve-amps-sound-better

https://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1088/1361-6552/aa57b7

[AzCal Retred]

Axman88 @ #19: The Alligator if fitted with proper steering linkage would work well as a recumbent design. The forward-spine-killing-crouch would be eliminated, you'd be astraddle of the engine more. Proper bodywork & insulation should remedy intrusive heat & noise. I have a vertical crankshaft donor V-twin Kohler powered hydrostat lawnmower that would make drive train configuration easier.
" I believe that the kind of person who might be interested in a Light Electric Vehicle, will be much less concerned about how things have been done since 1905, and much more open to new ways of doing things. "
Given the paucity of new riders, anything that will help attract the "youngin's" is welcome. A cheap, stamped-steel, liquid fueled (or propane?) hydrostat recumbent scooter might fill the bill...? Cheap transport is always popular.
On Alligator #1 I found the "exhaust splitter" where the pipes dumped in front of the rear tire an interesting idea.

As regards acoustic nuances between solid state & tubes, I think the days of my being able to appreciate those differences are long gone after 60 years of Power Plant noise, dirt bikes & recreational shooting...

[AzCal Retred]

Similar to the 'Gator...but from Big Red.

Honda NM4 Vultus
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d9iWkKf9Iuk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d9iWkKf9Iuk&list=RDCMUCvxbv5sjd161Zxbt5qy7ZIQ&start_radio=1&rv=d9iWkKf9Iuk&t=331
https://www.bike-urious.com/bike-review-900-miles-with-the-honda-nm4/

[cyrusb]

All I can say is take a ride in a side car on a busy highway. It will give you the full danger experience of one of those "future" pods.
 I made that mistake once , getting a lift home in a pals BMW with sidecar. I don't think flying a flag or gigabytes of electronic annunciation would allay my fear.
 The busy highway at 60 mph and my head at the same height as the semi's axles was truly unnerving .
 Perhaps when driverless cars are perfected it could be workable, but as long as there is a potential idiot behind the wheel its not for me.

[Richard230]

And how well did the Honda NM4 Vultus sell when it was introduced to the market?   

[AzCal Retred]

So the consensus is that riding in the same plane as the average house pet/wild critter experiences crossing the road isn't confidence inspiring?  It's not actually the hardware performance, it's the subjective perception that is the issue. People feel safer farther off the ground, "distanced" from possible trouble.

https://sandiego.momcollective.com/mom/mom-driving-trail-boss-thanks-chevrolet/

[axman88]

Technically there are a lot of advantages.  Both in the music industry and in high end audio applications.  This is not just in peoples imaginations, see the links below.

Basically valve amplifiers when lightly overdriven add a subtle richness to the sound whereas solid state amplifiers just sound harsh and more importantly the type and amount of harmonics introduced by a valve amp are controllable by the musician, something a solid state amp can only emulate by fancy electronics.

Solid State amps on the other hand, do tend to be less expensive, lighter and less fragile and so are popular in areas where a "squeeky clean" sound is traditional, like Jazz or Country, and are especially tempting if you do not have the luxury of touring with a large pantech and a road crew.

I'm with you, I'm a tube fan myself, ever since seeing the orange and blue flames dancing inside an old Traynor head, as I jammed with a buddy in the late 70s.  I was just repeating what the article had said, in what I thought was the context of Fortnine's video's perspective, that resistance to new modes of technology is largely social custom, and not based on analysis.  It was probably not the best example, since tubes do have technical advantages, but so do horses or donkeys, in very specific cases.

You didn't list the biggest technical advantage of vacuum tubes, the ability to handle LARGE amounts of power in a single device.  We have an machine at my employer that runs something like 24,000 watts though a triode the size of a beagle dog running in a simple class A circuit.  It's used for welding plastic sheet with an RF field, where the broadcasting antenna has the shape of the desired weld and sits right up against the plastic sheet stock.   I understand that tubes are still used in other high power applications, like radio station transmitters.

And there is the advantage of the absence of diode voltage drop, which is where I came in.  I started looking for information on fixing my old Knight KG-625 VTVM, which I had fried trying to check the high voltage output of a microwave, and branched out into general tube articles.  Voltage drop in the AC input circuitry would create inaccuracy in the low voltage AC ranges, whereas the tube is linear, and a more complicated circuit.

I learned that it's best to avoid making servicing decisions late at night.

[axman88]

Given the paucity of new riders, anything that will help attract the "youngin's" is welcome. A cheap, stamped-steel, liquid fueled (or propane?) hydrostat recumbent scooter might fill the bill...? Cheap transport is always popular.

I'm not so sure about "anything" being "welcome", but it depends who you ask.  When Chicago accepted a test of those electric stand-up scooters, they were extremely popular with youngsters.  One weekend there were suddenly thousands of these things on the streets, riding two-up with no helmets, riding the wrong way on one way streets, ignoring stop signs, ignoring red lights, riding on sidewalks.  Outside the subway train stations the sidewalk would be littered with them.  People were complaining about stepping out their front door, and tripping over one of these things, or having to pick them up in order to mow their lawn.

In my opinion, as a new transportation mode that is disruptive to social norms, those E standup scooters checked all the boxes.  Cheap, readily available, popular with new riders and especially embraced by young people.

But, not necessarily a positive development.
https://www.wired.com/story/escooters-accidents-europe/
https://media.nature.com/w1248/magazine-assets/d41586-019-02421-x/d41586-019-02421-x_17045720.jpg

They are still around but have declined since that time.  The latest vehicular litter around here are clunky step-thru frame electric bicycles.  I haven't seen the latest, white ones yet.  We have the black original E-bikes, and loads of the blue pedal powered bikes.    https://divvybikes.com/how-it-works/meet-the-bikes

[GlennF]

You know the plus side of being close to the ground is less distance to fall