[Richard230]

FortNine discusses recumbent motorcycle design in his latest YouTube clip:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uk2ou5gt_94

[gizzo]

Always good to see a new F9 video 

[AzCal Retred]

....I think the rest of the world calls them scooters... Starting with a cheap Chinese 150cc-200cc 16" wheel scooter platform and doing some mods to lower the seating position a bit and stretch the wheelbase so your legs fit could be a fun project. The linkage steering lash-up is always challenging. Some carbon fibre over shaped foam work and Bob's your Uncle, a recumbent motorcycle.
New stuff is available for $1400 - $1600, as an example: https://www.gasscooters.net/mc-zs-18.html ; https://countyimports.com/inc/sdetail/discount--150cc-gas-scooter---free-shipping--for-sale---mp-9089-/37270 ; https://arlingtonpowersports.com/vitacci-spark-150cc-scooter-gy6-4-stroke-air-cooled/
For more money the Yamaha XMAX is almost there anyway: https://www.yamahamotorsports.com/scooter/models/xmax
Or find a used "parts" machine for almost nothing and start carving away.

Terrifyingly, recumbent bicycles aren't allowed to race with conventional bicycles - too fast, corner harder, higher top speeds, more brakes, etc., etc. The folks with the $6000 beryllium frames and high maintenance lady friends don't like to be dusted off by a Joe-Blow recumbent. That rather confirms that there are real advantages to be had in a recumbent design, just as F9 said.

The main cited "disadvantage" I've heard of to recumbents on the street is lower visibility to auto & truck traffic because they are low profile machines. Whether or not that is a valid concern remains for the insurance folks actuarial tables to sort out.

[cyrusb]

Heres a guy doing his best "Rollie Free" on a Neeracar of the 1920's.
 With such a wind cheating advantage it makes one wonder why after so many attempts the design won't take hold.
 What I have found wrong for ME with the feet forward design is rubbish handling. It may have something to do with the fluid in the inner ear but I'm about as steady as a dog shitting razor blades riding like that.

[AzCal Retred]

    I think the recumbent "luge" riding position is off-putting but obviously not unworkable. Lugers I'll bet do it because no imbecile wants his head to be the impact cushion. That's what legs are for, they fold up predictably to absorb energy... The "forward crouch" seems to me a more natural control position, but that's what I'm used to. You look "upwards" at the planned trajectory, downwards to the instruments & ground, lots of info available. A recumbent had your head bent forward more, half of your visual field is sky. But as anyone that's taken a trip over the bars knows, head first into an embankment isn't necessarily your best crash position.
    That Neracar has an interesting layout, I like the engine placement, weight distribution & steering layout. It'd make a good starting point for a project, should be lots of info & drawings still available. No reason to start completely from scratch; like aircraft folks do, it's just smarter to build on what already works. Looks like scooter tech has a place here as well. A running 20 HP engine and and functional CVT would make the rest of the package easier to build & test. More power is always available, just look at the Suzuki & Yamaha scooter efforts alone.

https://ride-ct.com/neracar-rarity-1920s/

Last Neracar ride of the season 10/4/09
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=go230Et8ecw

https://www.yamaha-motor.eu/baltic/en/products/scooters/sport/tmax-dx/
https://suzukicycles.com/scooter/2022/burgman-400
https://www.vespa.com/us_EN/models/gts/gts-300-hpe-2020/
https://ultimatemotorcycling.com/2020/11/11/2021-honda-x-adv-first-look-motorcycle-scooter-adv-hybrid/
https://www.cycleworld.com/2011/10/27/aprilia-srv-850-first-look/

[GlennF]

Recumbent was the look I assumed custom LA chopper riders were after long term -  but they only shrunk the tank to some fraction of a gallon rather than eliminating it all together and, despite highway pegs stayed relatively upright in the seating position.

[Rick Dangerous]

If all these quirky and odd designs are so world changing and superior; then why don't you see more of them in the marketplace?

Faster too?  I don't see these winning a motoGP race anytime soon.

Cool for what they are; but it's a very very small niche for a reason.

[AzCal Retred]

Humanity's general mantra is "Change is BAD". People are sensitive to other folks opinion also, so stepping outside the box style wise is "vewwy skeawwy" for most of us. There are some advantages though.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xT_tpJlKkJs
Recumbent Bike Vs Road Bike: Manon Challenges Hank To A Race

[Arschloch]

Change is constant, about as same as swine taking the profit from it for not seing it.

[axman88]

Since horsepower at speed is mainly needed to overcome air drag and air drag is calculated as   D = Cd * A * .5 * r * V^2        https://www.grc.nasa.gov/www/k-12/airplane/drageq.html

where,
       Cd is Coefficient of Drag
       A is Frontal area
       r is density of air and
       V is Velocity

If we want to go fast, and be efficient about it, we need to keep Coefficient of Drag or frontal Area or both to a minimum.

Recumbent design can accomplish both.

From what I've seen of top speed claims vs. horsepower for some unmodified Maxi Scooters, I believe that those machines are already perhaps 20% slipperier than more traditional forms, a feat I believe they accomplish with narrower, lower profiles, and therefore less frontal area, but also lower Cds.

Personally though, I hate to give up the visibility I get with a taller conventional form.  Just going from my C5's ~32" saddle height, to the 26" or so high saddle on my Honda cruiser, I notice I can no longer see over a lot of cars, whereas I could on the RE Classic.  It's safe ( actually UN-safe for me) to assume that the cars I can't see, also can't see me.  Until increasing gas prices get most of those tall and heavy Suburban Ussult Vehicles off the roads, I think I'll prefer to see and be seen.

Recumbent bicycles solved the visibility problem with a flag on a long stick.  Roman military units from the mid 11th century employed the Draco, a dragon shaped windsock, sometimes carrying a flaming torch, flying overhead as they moved into battle.  One of those might get somebody to look up from their phone.  It wouldn't do Cd or A any favors though.

[StefArmstg]

I had Lotus Europa in the mid-70s.  A very low car.  You actually levered yourself out of the seat by putting your hand on the ground.

Driving down residential streets, with cars parked on both sides, was tense.  Nobody on the cross streets could see you coming.

[GlennF]

If all these quirky and odd designs are so world changing and superior; then why don't you see more of them in the marketplace?

Being superior does not mean something necessarily will succeed in the market.

Just look at PC keyboards. They were designed by Remington in the Victorian era for use with mechanical typewriters and one key design consideration was that a sales person could type the word "typewriter" on the top row of the keyboard quickly as a demo.  They then cleverly gained market dominance by offering free typing courses to office workers all around the world on their new and "advanced" typewriter.

There have been numerous better keyboards designed since some of which allow substantially faster typing speeds  with far less health issues but the Remington QWERTY design is so entrenched nothing can dislodge it.

[zimmemr]

Anyone here remember Dan Gurney's All American Racer designed "Alligator"?

Technically interesting and reportedly stable and very well handling, but it had very limited success in the marketplace. Just sayin. 

[Richard230]

Anyone here remember Dan Gurney's All American Racer designed "Alligator"?

Technically interesting and reportedly stable and very well handling, but it had very limited success in the marketplace. Just sayin. 

When I think of recumbent motorcycles the Alligator is the first vehicle I think of. I was really impressed by the design, but I still wouldn't want to ride one in traffic on a multi-lane highway. I really doubt that the driver in the vehicle next to you would be able to see a rider on an Alligator when it came to changing lanes.

[zimmemr]

When I think of recumbent motorcycles the Alligator is the first vehicle I think of. I was really impressed by the design, but I still wouldn't want to ride one in traffic on a multi-lane highway. I really doubt that the driver in the vehicle next to you would be able to see a rider on an Alligator when it came to changing lanes.

I have two friends that have ridden them, and both reported that while it was an impressive bike and big fun to ride, it was scary in traffic for all the reasons that have been suggested here.

[AzCal Retred]

Zim - New one to me - Thanks! Good write up in Motorcycle Cruiser link.

http://allamericanracers.com/alligator-motorcycle-dan-gurney-post/

https://www.autoweek.com/car-life/a1689106/gurney-alligator-when-racing-legend-designed-and-built-his-own-radical-motorcycle/

https://www.motorcyclecruiser.com/riding-dan-gurneys-alligator-motorcycle/
So, I liked the Alligator. A lot. But then I'm not one who's buffaloed by social expectations. There are only three things this bike has going against it--cost, proof of reliability and perception. Time is likely to mend the first two ills. The fact that it isn't exactly orthodox is the Alligator's real challenge. Can you see outside the box? I'll be curious to see how many of us can.


SPECIFICATIONS
MSRP: $35,000
Weight: 320 lbs.
Wheelbase: 60 in.
Rake/Trail: 24-degrees/3 in.
Seat Height: 18 in.
Engine Type: 670cc air-cooled 4-stroke single
Compression Ratio: 12:1
Carburetion: EFI
Minimum Fuel Grade: 92 octane
Wheels: Dymag 17-in. front and rear
Front Tire: 120/70
Rear Tire: 180/55
Front Brake: 330mm dual discs/Honda
Rear Brake: 220mm single disc/Brembo/Ferodo
Front Suspension: 43mm inverted cartridge fork

[zimmemr]

Zim - New one to me - Thanks! Good write up in Motorcycle Cruiser link.

http://allamericanracers.com/alligator-motorcycle-dan-gurney-post/

https://www.autoweek.com/car-life/a1689106/gurney-alligator-when-racing-legend-designed-and-built-his-own-radical-motorcycle/

https://www.motorcyclecruiser.com/riding-dan-gurneys-alligator-motorcycle/
So, I liked the Alligator. A lot. But then I'm not one who's buffaloed by social expectations. There are only three things this bike has going against it--cost, proof of reliability and perception. Time is likely to mend the first two ills. The fact that it isn't exactly orthodox is the Alligator's real challenge. Can you see outside the box? I'll be curious to see how many of us can.


SPECIFICATIONS
MSRP: $35,000
Weight: 320 lbs.
Wheelbase: 60 in.
Rake/Trail: 24-degrees/3 in.
Seat Height: 18 in.
Engine Type: 670cc air-cooled 4-stroke single
Compression Ratio: 12:1
Carburetion: EFI
Minimum Fuel Grade: 92 octane
Wheels: Dymag 17-in. front and rear
Front Tire: 120/70
Rear Tire: 180/55
Front Brake: 330mm dual discs/Honda
Rear Brake: 220mm single disc/Brembo/Ferodo
Front Suspension: 43mm inverted cartridge fork

For the record Jamie Elvidge hired me and was my boss for my first three or so years at Cruiser. She was an exceptional rider an outstanding writer
and a pretty decent boss.

[cyrusb]

A swayback motorcycle? Looks like the answer to the question nobody asked..
 

[Richard230]

The blue Alligator is the one that I recall from a motorcycle magazine test when it was introduced to the press. I can't recall ever seeing the red version. 

[axman88]

It seems to me that the machine in Fortnine's video on recumbent technology would much more properly be called an "electric bicycle", not a "motorcycle".  The folks who dreamed it up, call it a "Light Electric Vehicle", and the specs are consistent with other vehicles that have been presented in the realm of bicycles.     https://www.electrom.ca/

With less than 5 horsepower, it's not what most riders in the west think of as a "motorcycle".

It is, however, exactly the kind of revolutionary, blank sheet design that I was hoping to discuss in the thread I started titled "E-Bike Developments", but that thread devolved into 38 pages of complaining about government conspiracies with a dozen posts interspersed discussing various types of electric motorcycles, and very very little discussion about "Light Electric Vehicles".

I believe that the kind of person who might be interested in a Light Electric Vehicle, will be much less concerned about how things have been done since 1905, and much more open to new ways of doing things.  There are already scores of designs out there, with 2, 3 and 4 wheels, pods and capsules and peculiar shaped vehicles of all kinds.
https://micromobilityreport.com.au/features/annual-guides/what-is-a-light-electric-vehicle/
https://cleantechnica.com/files/2020/11/Daymak-Avvenire-Lineup.jpg

The safety of these vehicles will be greatly enhanced when another development, already in process, becomes commonplace.  This is the Vehicle  Location and Identification system that was discussed (and lambasted) here in the forum under the guise of new laws proposed in the UK prohibiting vehicle tampering.  The downside was recognized, but the upside is that if the VEHICLE the other idiot is driving, can see me, I don't need to be as concerned that the idiot does NOT see me.  Small, low, efficient vehicles, like the Electrom, will be just as large in a computer's purview, and just as much to be avoided, as any SUV or pickup truck, provided all are equipped with the transceivers that will be required.

I was reading recently about vacuum tube technology.  The article stated that, for all their reputation of wildness, rock guitarists are extremely traditional, and this has preserved the vacuum tube well after its predicted demise.  I'd say that for all their reputation, motorcyclists are every bit as conservative as rock guitar players, and likely more so.

[gizzo]

I was reading recently about vacuum tube technology.  The article stated that, for all their reputation of wildness, rock guitarists are extremely traditional, and this has preserved the vacuum tube well after its predicted demise.  I'd say that for all their reputation, motorcyclists are every bit as conservative as rock guitar players, and likely more so.

This.

[GlennF]

I was reading recently about vacuum tube technology.  The article stated that, for all their reputation of wildness, rock guitarists are extremely traditional, and this has preserved the vacuum tube well after its predicted demise.  I'd say that for all their reputation, motorcyclists are every bit as conservative as rock guitar players, and likely more so.

Technically there are a lot of advantages.  Both in the music industry and in high end audio applications.  This is not just in peoples imaginations, see the links below.

Basically valve amplifiers when lightly overdriven add a subtle richness to the sound whereas solid state amplifiers just sound harsh and more importantly the type and amount of harmonics introduced by a valve amp are controllable by the musician, something a solid state amp can only emulate by fancy electronics.

Solid State amps on the other hand, do tend to be less expensive, lighter and less fragile and so are popular in areas where a "squeeky clean" sound is traditional, like Jazz or Country, and are especially tempting if you do not have the luxury of touring with a large pantech and a road crew.


https://www.techradar.com/uk/news/the-physics-of-why-valve-amps-sound-better

https://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1088/1361-6552/aa57b7

[AzCal Retred]

Axman88 @ #19: The Alligator if fitted with proper steering linkage would work well as a recumbent design. The forward-spine-killing-crouch would be eliminated, you'd be astraddle of the engine more. Proper bodywork & insulation should remedy intrusive heat & noise. I have a vertical crankshaft donor V-twin Kohler powered hydrostat lawnmower that would make drive train configuration easier.
" I believe that the kind of person who might be interested in a Light Electric Vehicle, will be much less concerned about how things have been done since 1905, and much more open to new ways of doing things. "
Given the paucity of new riders, anything that will help attract the "youngin's" is welcome. A cheap, stamped-steel, liquid fueled (or propane?) hydrostat recumbent scooter might fill the bill...? Cheap transport is always popular.
On Alligator #1 I found the "exhaust splitter" where the pipes dumped in front of the rear tire an interesting idea.

As regards acoustic nuances between solid state & tubes, I think the days of my being able to appreciate those differences are long gone after 60 years of Power Plant noise, dirt bikes & recreational shooting...

[AzCal Retred]

Similar to the 'Gator...but from Big Red.

Honda NM4 Vultus
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d9iWkKf9Iuk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d9iWkKf9Iuk&list=RDCMUCvxbv5sjd161Zxbt5qy7ZIQ&start_radio=1&rv=d9iWkKf9Iuk&t=331
https://www.bike-urious.com/bike-review-900-miles-with-the-honda-nm4/

[cyrusb]

All I can say is take a ride in a side car on a busy highway. It will give you the full danger experience of one of those "future" pods.
 I made that mistake once , getting a lift home in a pals BMW with sidecar. I don't think flying a flag or gigabytes of electronic annunciation would allay my fear.
 The busy highway at 60 mph and my head at the same height as the semi's axles was truly unnerving .
 Perhaps when driverless cars are perfected it could be workable, but as long as there is a potential idiot behind the wheel its not for me.

[Richard230]

And how well did the Honda NM4 Vultus sell when it was introduced to the market?   

[AzCal Retred]

So the consensus is that riding in the same plane as the average house pet/wild critter experiences crossing the road isn't confidence inspiring?  It's not actually the hardware performance, it's the subjective perception that is the issue. People feel safer farther off the ground, "distanced" from possible trouble.

https://sandiego.momcollective.com/mom/mom-driving-trail-boss-thanks-chevrolet/

[axman88]

Technically there are a lot of advantages.  Both in the music industry and in high end audio applications.  This is not just in peoples imaginations, see the links below.

Basically valve amplifiers when lightly overdriven add a subtle richness to the sound whereas solid state amplifiers just sound harsh and more importantly the type and amount of harmonics introduced by a valve amp are controllable by the musician, something a solid state amp can only emulate by fancy electronics.

Solid State amps on the other hand, do tend to be less expensive, lighter and less fragile and so are popular in areas where a "squeeky clean" sound is traditional, like Jazz or Country, and are especially tempting if you do not have the luxury of touring with a large pantech and a road crew.

I'm with you, I'm a tube fan myself, ever since seeing the orange and blue flames dancing inside an old Traynor head, as I jammed with a buddy in the late 70s.  I was just repeating what the article had said, in what I thought was the context of Fortnine's video's perspective, that resistance to new modes of technology is largely social custom, and not based on analysis.  It was probably not the best example, since tubes do have technical advantages, but so do horses or donkeys, in very specific cases.

You didn't list the biggest technical advantage of vacuum tubes, the ability to handle LARGE amounts of power in a single device.  We have an machine at my employer that runs something like 24,000 watts though a triode the size of a beagle dog running in a simple class A circuit.  It's used for welding plastic sheet with an RF field, where the broadcasting antenna has the shape of the desired weld and sits right up against the plastic sheet stock.   I understand that tubes are still used in other high power applications, like radio station transmitters.

And there is the advantage of the absence of diode voltage drop, which is where I came in.  I started looking for information on fixing my old Knight KG-625 VTVM, which I had fried trying to check the high voltage output of a microwave, and branched out into general tube articles.  Voltage drop in the AC input circuitry would create inaccuracy in the low voltage AC ranges, whereas the tube is linear, and a more complicated circuit.

I learned that it's best to avoid making servicing decisions late at night.

[axman88]

Given the paucity of new riders, anything that will help attract the "youngin's" is welcome. A cheap, stamped-steel, liquid fueled (or propane?) hydrostat recumbent scooter might fill the bill...? Cheap transport is always popular.

I'm not so sure about "anything" being "welcome", but it depends who you ask.  When Chicago accepted a test of those electric stand-up scooters, they were extremely popular with youngsters.  One weekend there were suddenly thousands of these things on the streets, riding two-up with no helmets, riding the wrong way on one way streets, ignoring stop signs, ignoring red lights, riding on sidewalks.  Outside the subway train stations the sidewalk would be littered with them.  People were complaining about stepping out their front door, and tripping over one of these things, or having to pick them up in order to mow their lawn.

In my opinion, as a new transportation mode that is disruptive to social norms, those E standup scooters checked all the boxes.  Cheap, readily available, popular with new riders and especially embraced by young people.

But, not necessarily a positive development.
https://www.wired.com/story/escooters-accidents-europe/
https://media.nature.com/w1248/magazine-assets/d41586-019-02421-x/d41586-019-02421-x_17045720.jpg

They are still around but have declined since that time.  The latest vehicular litter around here are clunky step-thru frame electric bicycles.  I haven't seen the latest, white ones yet.  We have the black original E-bikes, and loads of the blue pedal powered bikes.    https://divvybikes.com/how-it-works/meet-the-bikes

[GlennF]

You know the plus side of being close to the ground is less distance to fall

[cyrusb]

It gets even worse. Meet Hondas self balancing motorcycle.
https://twitter.com/i/status/1519240654924226560

[Richard230]

It gets even worse. Meet Hondas self balancing motorcycle.
https://twitter.com/i/status/1519240654924226560

The nice thing is that you should be able to outrun it if it turns into a Terminator and starts chasing you.   

[Karl Childers]

It gets even worse. Meet Hondas self balancing motorcycle.
https://twitter.com/i/status/1519240654924226560

I want the one with the video camera so I can send it out on its own and I can stay home on the couch, eat snacks and watch my ride on TV.

[Richard230]

I want the one with the video camera so I can send it out on its own and I can stay home on the couch, eat snacks and watch my ride on TV.

Sounds like my granddaughters.  They seem to abhor fresh air. 

[cyrusb]

It seems Honda is developing a self riding motorcycle. Completely unaware that the RIDE is the point of it all.
 If they put half that effort into an easily serviceable, basic, stone ax reliable machine we would all be the better for it.
 Wasn't their motto "Honda,We Make It Simple" ?

[Richard230]

It seems Honda is developing a self riding motorcycle. Completely unaware that the RIDE is the point of it all.
 If they put half that effort into an easily serviceable, basic, stone ax reliable machine we would all be the better for it.
 Wasn't their motto "Honda,We Make It Simple" ?

Ah, the good old days, when Honda was owned by a fellow who really cared about the vehicles that his company designed and manufactured and the people who bought them. Now it is just a huge worldwide faceless corporation that could care less what happens after the "unit" is sold. 

[AzCal Retred]

With proper VR feedback gear, it should be totally unnecessary to own a sporting vehicle, just the VR "mule" in your house. Now where's that Hayabusa sim chip and my copy of "Tron"...

https://teslasuit.io/
The TESLASUIT training solution provides outputs from haptic feedback and climate control to users, and receives inputs from motion capture and biometrics. With our software and partner ecosystem, this technology is a complete solution for improving human performance.

https://www.olorama.com/vr-smell

https://feelreal.com/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OEMa2-IVfyw

[GlennF]

There is also this recumbent design ...

[AzCal Retred]

I'll have to sleep on that...

[viczena]

It gets even worse. Meet Hondas self balancing motorcycle.
https://twitter.com/i/status/1519240654924226560

I would love to have a self balancing motorcycle.

[Richard230]

I would love to have a self balancing motorcycle.

All you need is one with an extra wheel.   

[Arschloch]

All you need is one with an extra wheel.   

That wouldn't look like magic.

[Richard230]

That wouldn't look like magic.

Good thing they have their arms out. That keeps them from falling over. 

[viczena]

It keeps them to falling sideways, but what keeps them from falling rearward?

[zimmemr]

A very good friend of mine, who's in his late 70's comes from a long line of motorcycle racers. He held a National number in the 60's thru about 1974 and among his other talents is a great unicycle rider. He told me his dad, who was a world famous hill climber during the teens and 20's (riding a Douglas) and was arguably the first guy in the states to sell British bikes, wouldn't let him ride a motorcycle until he mastered a unicycle. He said that once he'd figured out how to balance on one wheel, riding a bike with two was a piece of cake.

[Karl Childers]

It keeps them to falling sideways, but what keeps them from falling rearward?

On a unicycle when you are stationary it is slight pressure forward and back on the pedals along with left right body english  that keeps you from falling over. For grins on my motorcycle at a stop sign I'll see how long I can balance the bike without putting a foot down. Quite often I can do a full legal stop and then pull away without dabbing a foot. I wonder what the driver behind me thinks?!

[Richard230]

On a unicycle when you are stationary it is slight pressure forward and back on the pedals along with left right body english  that keeps you from falling over. For grins on my motorcycle at a stop sign I'll see how long I can balance the bike without putting a foot down. Quite often I can do a full legal stop and then pull away without dabbing a foot. I wonder what the driver behind me thinks?!

I once had a cop tell me that he didn't consider a stop legal unless the rider put his foot down. 

[AzCal Retred]

I think I've done this by accident...once.

How to rear wheel hop on trials bikes
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FeHjMyG98EE

[GlennF]

I once had a cop tell me that he didn't consider a stop legal unless the rider put his foot down. 

That is pretty much how a lot of Australian courts rule it.  The judges logic seems to be the point of a Stop sign is to give people time to look carefully at the traffic situation "stop and observe" and if someone is focussing on some sort of instantaneous stop while balancing the bike they are too distracted to do any meaningful "observing".

[zimmemr]

That is pretty much how a lot of Australian courts rule it.  The judges logic seems to be the point of a Stop sign is to give people time to look carefully at the traffic situation "stop and observe" and if someone is focussing on some sort of instantaneous stop while balancing the bike they are too distracted to do any meaningful "observing".

Same thing in Connecticut, USA, one foot has to come down or it's not counted as a full stop. Feet up and even Sammy Millar gets a ticket.

[Karl Childers]

New Mexico rule book just says full stop, though no mention of motorcycles and foot down. I can see where a LEO would assume no foot down would mean a bike has not fully stopped. I'd better look who's behind me when I play circus monkey.

[GlennF]

New Mexico rule book just says full stop, though no mention of motorcycles and foot down. I can see where a LEO would assume no foot down would mean a bike has not fully stopped. I'd better look who's behind me when I play circus monkey.

If it ever goes to court it will initially revolve around what the court decides a "full stop" means.   

Neither the common-sense definition of "the bike is not moving" nor a dictionary definition are even slightly relevant. The court will want a precise legal definition and will try and find one.

It is quite possible what a "full stop" means in this scenario is defined in the legislation for your jurisdiction. In fact it should be defined if it is a well drafted act, but more often than not it is left for the courts to sort out. It may for example be defined as "the vehicle is stationary and requires no input from the operator to remain in place" which would likely rule out balancing without putting a foot down OR it may just be come to a stop before proceeding which gives you a lot more room to argue. You would need to look up the relevant legislation for your state to know how it is defined, assuming it is defined at all.

If it is not defined in the local legislation, traditionally some sort of "what a reasonable person would think is a full stop" logic will be applied. The two attorneys would be left to arguing as to whether a "reasonable person" would regard balancing briefly with feet up constitutes a complete or full stop or instead would they see it as a "temporary" stop for a brief time. 

How that will go will depend entirely on how good the respective attorneys are, and the attitude of the court on the day. Either way. relying on some technical/semantic claim that by strict definition being stationary for some tiny fraction of a second constitutes a "full stop" in the legislation is likely to get you seen by the judge as a smartass and not go in your favour.

The other issue you may come across is that, even if the court decides a brief momentary stop is sufficient, you may still be in breach of the law if the legislation requires you to look and observe and only proceeding once you ascertain it is safe. The court may well decide yes technically you did stop but the brief time involved together with the effort of balancing meant you could not fully ascertain the situation. Clearly this would be much more likely to arise as an argument in a busy city street as opposed to a remote deserted country road.

To be honest, if it is just your word against the highway patrol officer that you stopped and looked the court is likely to see in favor of law enforcement. Your best chance would be if you were wearing a helmet cam that demonstrates you did stop for a reasonable period and also looked both ways and ascertained it was safe before proceeding.

TLDR there is no telling how a court will decide until you front up on the day. Unless you are aware of clear precedents where people were not convicted, I would be wary.

[AzCal Retred]

And now for something completely different - back on topic! 

Entries closed on 31 Jan. 2022, interesting website.

https://www.dalinci.be/feet-forward-motorcycle-design/design-competition
Recumbent Motorcycle Design Competition
 Dalinci Product Design has recently announced its Recumbent Motorcycle Design Contest, inviting you to visualise and present your vision on the appearance of its future vehicle plans.
What is a Recumbent or “ Feet Forward” motorcycle ?
The Recumbent Motorcycle or “ Feet Forward Motorcycle” concept is almost as old as the first 2 wheeled vehicles that had a motor installed. Only few of them have had limited commercial success in the past. Still today, traditional motorcycle brands seem to have no interest in the possible advantages of the concept.
With electric drivetrains and batteries being the most promising power sources for vehicle propulsion, things might change, especially if we’re thinking of motorcycles. Unlike aerodynamically optimised cars, “motorcycle + driver” ‘s drag coefficient and frontal area is ridiculous for the weight and volume to be displaced. Therefore battery packs in “ traditional” electric powered motorcycles, are as big as possible to create an acceptable range, certainly at highway speeds. And for electric motorcycles the battery pack is the most important cost factor…
Imagine a motorcycle concept where frontal area could be drastically reduced, drag coefficient could be halved, and in the same time offer the rider way more comfort and weather protection. Possibly also crash protection structures, belts and or airbags could be successfully integrated.

Most complete website on the topic of feet forward motorcycles is : www.bikeweb.com
 
What are we looking for?
Participants are to design and visualize their vision on the styling of an existing and functional Proof Of Concept vehicle.  See short movie of the POC vehicle here : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=00OxyJ9o_E0   For those interested, 2D views in pdf and 3D CAD data or available to be used as underlay. The primary use case for this vehicle is “sportive high performance fun”. Other use cases can be presented next to this, it’s all up to the participants vision.

https://thevintagent.com/2017/09/19/louis-lucien-lepoix/

https://matus1976.com/akira_bike/research_design.html

https://cyclearts.wordpress.com/2014/12/07/1950s-nsu-flying-hammock-and-feet-forward-design-2/
In the 1950s NSU produced a feet forward fully enclosed monocoque construction “Flying Hammock” record breaker. The feet forward riding position allowed an exceptionally small frontal area. The consequent low wind resistance made it possible
for H.P. “Happy” Mueller to achieve 150 mph (241 km/h) from a 150cc engine at the Utah Salt flats in 1956.

[Karl Childers]

If it ever goes to court it will initially revolve around what the court decides a "full stop" means.   

Neither the common-sense definition of "the bike is not moving" nor a dictionary definition are even slightly relevant. The court will want a precise legal definition and will try and find one.

It is quite possible what a "full stop" means in this scenario is defined in the legislation for your jurisdiction. In fact it should be defined if it is a well drafted act, but more often than not it is left for the courts to sort out. It may for example be defined as "the vehicle is stationary and requires no input from the operator to remain in place" which would likely rule out balancing without putting a foot down OR it may just be come to a stop before proceeding which gives you a lot more room to argue. You would need to look up the relevant legislation for your state to know how it is defined, assuming it is defined at all.

If it is not defined in the local legislation, traditionally some sort of "what a reasonable person would think is a full stop" logic will be applied. The two attorneys would be left to arguing as to whether a "reasonable person" would regard balancing briefly with feet up constitutes a complete or full stop or instead would they see it as a "temporary" stop for a brief time. 

How that will go will depend entirely on how good the respective attorneys are, and the attitude of the court on the day. Either way. relying on some technical/semantic claim that by strict definition being stationary for some tiny fraction of a second constitutes a "full stop" in the legislation is likely to get you seen by the judge as a smartass and not go in your favour.

The other issue you may come across is that, even if the court decides a brief momentary stop is sufficient, you may still be in breach of the law if the legislation requires you to look and observe and only proceeding once you ascertain it is safe. The court may well decide yes technically you did stop but the brief time involved together with the effort of balancing meant you could not fully ascertain the situation. Clearly this would be much more likely to arise as an argument in a busy city street as opposed to a remote deserted country road.

To be honest, if it is just your word against the highway patrol officer that you stopped and looked the court is likely to see in favor of law enforcement. Your best chance would be if you were wearing a helmet cam that demonstrates you did stop for a reasonable period and also looked both ways and ascertained it was safe before proceeding.

TLDR there is no telling how a court will decide until you front up on the day. Unless you are aware of clear precedents where people were not convicted, I would be wary.

All of that makes perfect sense and without witnesses or video  the word of policeman would probably rule the day. I don't end up in traffic court all that often but I got a speeding ticket that I felt was unjust (long story) and was going to fight it representing myself. I felt I had at least a 50 / 50 chance of winning. My case was called and I went up in front of the magistrate, the judge called the officer in question and he was no show. Case dismissed, I won by default and once again I was saved by dumb luck, something I have relied on heavily in my life. That will probably stand as my best day ever in court.

OK now back to repugnant motorcycles.