Unofficial Royal Enfield Community Forum

Royal Enfield Motorcycles => Bullet Iron Barrel => Topic started by: Raymond on November 22, 2021, 02:37:30 pm

Title: New member introduction
Post by: Raymond on November 22, 2021, 02:37:30 pm
Hello Everybody, just to introduce myself to the forum.

I am the proud new owner of a 2003 Bullet 500 Deluxe. Have attempted to attach a picture but not sure of the procedure on here. Other forums let you place pictures in line?

So I am new to the world of Royal Enfields but not new to motorbikes. Grew up on the back of me Mum's succession of BSA Bantams - she took me all over Britain and Ireland. Since the age of eighteen I have never been without at least one bike. Must have owned about thirty bikes down the years and they have been a very eclectic set.

The Bullet joins a 2014 Kawasaki W800, Polly to friends, Pretty Little Polly Perkins on Sundays. Also a 1978 Yamaha XS650, Miss November, a title she gained after being elected by popular vote for inclusion in the XS650.com calendar for 2020.

EDIT - the attachment has worked. Please ignore the date - I don't know how to change it on the camera  :-[
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: AzCal Retred on November 22, 2021, 11:45:06 pm
Welcome to the Hoard of the Archaic! Your '03 looks well taken care of. Lots of us old dinosaur riders here, we all enjoy the 1940's motorcycle experience.

What do you have for manuals yet? Where are you sourcing parts? Do you know about Hitchcock's yet?

https://accessories.hitchcocksmotorcycles.com/
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Willbrunei on November 23, 2021, 01:45:32 am
I like the rear mudguard stay - is that a custom part?
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Bilgemaster on November 23, 2021, 09:45:16 am
Welcome aboard! My hunch is you did very well coming by that lovely Bullet. It seems really well kept and has a lot of desirable features (lacking others, which is also desirable). Not least of its virtues is that right-hand shift, just the way The Lord and Redditch intended. Someone appears to have gone through a lot of effort to make her "just so." Well chosen, Sir!

I see from your profile you're in the Borders. I lived there in a farmhouse near Eddleston in Peebleshire for about a year long ago. Those are just the roads thereabouts for a well-kept Bullet. I expect you'll also discover she'll acquit herself well enough on unpaved surfaces too as required, since this very model really made its name back in the '50s as an indomitable trials machine. So, fear not the odd wee sheep track laddie!

I'm not sure about that rear tire, but the front appears like it very well could be the original nearly 2 decades old Avon Speedmaster II. Seeing as it's now just about old enough to vote or have a pint, you might do well to replace it and whatever tube is in there. If OEM, both would be well crusty by now. I personally favor the Dunlop K70s for my Bullet "Military", which do tolerably well on the road or off, don't cost much, and really look the part. But there is much guidance on tap in the Forum Archive on alternatives.
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Raymond on November 23, 2021, 10:32:47 am
Gentlemen, thank you all for the kind welcome.

I wanted the old-style engine and r/h gear change but I don't really know what I have yet. According to MCN, electric starting didn't arrive until 2004 and they were all five-speed l/h shift bay then. Ha, shows all they know. They also gave the suspension as 'none'.

Sent the VIN and engine number to Graham Scarth, who was able to confirm manufacture in July 2002 and that it is an export bike. It's a Bullet 500 Deluxe but I don't know any more about sub-model? Speedo and odometer are in KPH and kilometres so I have no idea which market it was intended for or sent to. Don't have the V5 yet so waiting to see what that says about first registration in the UK.

The Bullet came to live with me a week ago (was delivered sounds a bit impersonal). After checking there was oil in the engine and air in the tyres, I started engine and went for a very brief run on the lane outside the house. So I know the engine works and the gears select. A lot better after I adjusted the clutch at the mechanism.  I know the tappets are noisy once the engine warms up a bit. Have started the engine five or six times but haven't used the e-start yet.

Since then, Scottish Borders Cooncil has been out and dumped salt all over the roads so I think I will SORN the bike and not go out until Spring. Bilgemaster, I know Eddleston well, about 28 miles from us, near Melrose.

I love the sight of the traditional, tall, - am I allowed to say British? - single cylinder engine. One person has suggested that the exhaust is 'wrong'. Don't know and I can't answer Willbrunei's question about the mudguard stay.

The only aspects of the bike's appearance I am less happy with are the handlebar switches and the colour of the saddle. It was a pale tan, so have obtained leather dye and isopropyl alcohol and having a go at changing to a much more mellow chestnut.

Photos attached. Cheers, Raymond

Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Bilgemaster on November 23, 2021, 10:44:29 am
First and foremost, as a quick search of this Forum section's Archive of the term "sprag" should quickly reveal, you would do well to NEVER use that electric start. I mean, don't even look at it! Learn to kickstart it only, and both you and she will be MUCH happier in the long run.

My own "sprag fragging" is described here: https://forum.classicmotorworks.com/index.php?topic=26991.0;all

Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Paul W on November 23, 2021, 11:50:29 am
Raymond, welcome to this forum.

I’m also in U.K., in North Nottinghamshire but right on the three way border between Derbyshire and South Yorkshire.

Your bike looks very well kept!

My own bike is a 2004, Indian home market 350 Bullet Electra (now modified quite a lot) which is kickstart only. Everyone says to be very cautious of the sprag clutch for the electric start, which is very vulnerable if the engine kicks back. The usual advice, if you must use it, is to keep the battery well charged and to ensure that the ignition timing is set correctly. It would be beneficial to kick over the engine a few times first anyway, or at least use the decompressor and kick start to take the piston “over the top” before you press the “self destruct” button.
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: ddavidv on November 23, 2021, 12:21:20 pm
The electric start is about as necessary as lipstick on a pig. These bikes are so easy to kick over I never understood the need for the recalcitrant, hand-grenade arrangement they saddled these with. The good news is the starter is easily removed and the wiring sub-harness for it just unplugs. Hitchcocks makes a handy aluminum plug for the case where the starter drive goes.

(https://scontent.fagc1-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.6435-9/67449772_10157454956461055_1634357784818483200_n.jpg?_nc_cat=100&ccb=1-5&_nc_sid=cdbe9c&_nc_ohc=k5iLuoYST_8AX8hmmfC&_nc_ht=scontent.fagc1-2.fna&oh=88dbd62de2c2f287cc430e6c209dfe83&oe=61C37427)

Mine is a 2007 that suffered heavily with a previous owner. I found it hilariously easy to work on and the parts refreshingly affordable. Mine is blessed with the more useful 5 speed but otherwise retains the character of 1955. I agree, the switchgear does not fit the rest of the bike. Your silencer does appear to be different from original, which I'd offer is a good thing. The factory ones were too long, too heavy and too restrictive.
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Bilgemaster on November 23, 2021, 12:36:52 pm
Ha! "Self-Destruct Button"! Truer words were never written. But here's a pleasant alternative option for that button and relay: https://youtu.be/Xcfo30h-0N0

By the way, your saddle looks great.
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Paul W on November 23, 2021, 01:26:23 pm
Does the klaxon not get clouted by the front mudguard/fender on lock, when the forks compress?
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Bilgemaster on November 23, 2021, 01:39:17 pm
Does the klaxon not get clouted by the front mudguard/fender on lock, when the forks compress?

Nope.
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Adrian II on November 23, 2021, 02:29:19 pm
May I add my welcome from a good deal further south in the UK?

Quote
I love the sight of the traditional, tall, - am I allowed to say British? - single cylinder engine. One person has suggested that the exhaust is 'wrong'. Don't know and I can't answer Willbrunei's question about the mudguard stay.

The only aspects of the bike's appearance I am less happy with are the handlebar switches and the colour of the saddle. It was a pale tan, so have obtained leather dye and isopropyl alcohol and having a go at changing to a much more mellow chestnut.

The exhaust design on the classic or iron barrel Bullet changed quite noticeably over the years. The Indian factory started off with a longish exhaust pipe and the superb-sounding "short bottle" silencer/muffler, which mirrors the old Redditch Bullet set up. But, of course, the powers that be, anti-noise campaigners, etc, always want quieter exhausts, so the factory felt they had to comply, hence the increasingly longer silencers/mufflers over the years with shorter downpipes to keep the overall exhaust length within reason. By the time they got to the EFI models where they also had to incorporate catalytic converts, it looked like they'd failed on that point!

The good news is that the longer pipes and short bottle thingies are still available (if that's your thing, you might be happy with what's on there now). Get a good one and it will still sound great without being loud enough to get you into trouble, once the salt has washed off the roads.

The E/S models switch gear might be part of the strong Suzuki influence that seemed to be creeping in to RE electrics in the naughties. That came in handy when I converted my Electra-X to a twin-cable carburettor and found that the twin pull twist-grip off a Suzuki was compatible with the right-hand switches. You can always re-wire for traditional British handlebar switches, particularly if you decide not to use the electric start, though the AC headlight running straight off the alternator complicated things - a little bit.

A.
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Raymond on November 23, 2021, 02:37:25 pm
Thank you for the klaxon idea but I'll give that a miss.

You guys have certainly got me thinking. Had already heard that the starter, uhm, system is a bit unreliable which is why I've been kicking instead. Now wondering if I should go ahead and remove. Following Bilgemaster's link, I see one suggestion is to remove the sprag clutch and simply leave the motor in situ. Or as ddavidv suggests, buy the blanking plug from Hitchcocks and remove the motor too. I suppose if one ain't going to use it, might as well save the weight . . .

Was wondering on the electrics side. Been having a look around the bike and it would seem that a lot of wiring could be saved. My Bullet has been fitted with a Boyer Power Box which as I understand it replaces the rectifier and regulator. But it looks as though a lot of wiring might have been duplicated. Also, removing the engine cutout would save a whole bunch. And I don't need a clutch cutout - don't actually know what it's there for yet. So maybe I should spend some time this Winter and take out the starter motor, associated wiring and some of the other non-essential cables?

AzCal Retred asked about manuals - have been shopping and bought a couple, then the seller gave me another. Photo attached. Will donate one to anybody who needs a manual.

Because I'm not too sure what model I have, not too sure which wiring diagram applies. A very helpful gentleman on the XS650.com forum gave me this one for a 2004 and it seems to match the bike better than any in the workshop manual. Except that the wiring has been changed by PO's anyway.


Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Karl Childers on November 23, 2021, 02:50:18 pm
Welcome! You have found the right forum when it comes to good technical support for your Bullet. I have only been here since July but the information contained within and the knowledgeable members Have been invaluable to me in keeping my project moving ahead and making it a good experience as opposed to a big headache. Wonderful old world motorbikes, Iron Barrel Bullets have more than a few idiosyncrasies, better to learn from the old hands when it comes owning one of these than to learn the hard way. Yours is a very good looking machine and performance and visual wise has the better exhaust IMHO, I also agree with your choice to dye the seat black. My suggestion here would be to buy Pete Snidal's Bullet service manual, it is really worth owning if you plan on keeping the bike long term, it is a good compliment to the factory service manual and has many practical insights into the subsystems of the motorcycle.
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Karl Childers on November 23, 2021, 03:13:53 pm
Thank you for the klaxon idea but I'll give that a miss.

You guys have certainly got me thinking. Had already heard that the starter, uhm, system is a bit unreliable which is why I've been kicking instead. Now wondering if I should go ahead and remove. Following Bilgemaster's link, I see one suggestion is to remove the sprag clutch and simply leave the motor in situ. Or as ddavidv suggests, buy the blanking plug from Hitchcocks and remove the motor too. I suppose if one ain't going to use it, might as well save the weight . . .

Was wondering on the electrics side. Been having a look around the bike and it would seem that a lot of wiring could be saved. My Bullet has been fitted with a Boyer Power Box which as I understand it replaces the rectifier and regulator. But it looks as though a lot of wiring might have been duplicated. Also, removing the engine cutout would save a whole bunch. And I don't need a clutch cutout - don't actually know what it's there for yet. So maybe I should spend some time this Winter and take out the starter motor, associated wiring and some of the other non-essential cables?

AzCal Retred asked about manuals - have been shopping and bought a couple, then the seller gave me another. Photo attached. Will donate one to anybody who needs a manual.

Because I'm not too sure what model I have, not too sure which wiring diagram applies. A very helpful gentleman on the XS650.com forum gave me this one for a 2004 and it seems to match the bike better than any in the workshop manual. Except that the wiring has been changed by PO's anyway.

The wiring could be pared down to next to nothing, say something you'd find on an old BSA or Triumph, I used to make entire harnesses for those in the past. I have resisted doing that with my Enfield as I feel more comfortable in modern traffic with turn signals and a front brake lever actuated stop light, etc.. I have removed my starter, solenoid and wiring harness, a quick and easy job with the gas tank off. Instead of a plug for the starter hole I took it one step further and replaced the entire inner primary with the earlier non electric start version sourced From Hitchcock's. I have a new unused blanking plug I would gladly give you except the postage would be more than price of you buying one from H's.
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Raymond on November 23, 2021, 05:47:56 pm
Hi Karl, I think what I want to do is pare down the existing system but not to a single wire to the spark plug. The bike will need to have front and rear actuated brake lights to pass an MOT test. One person has already suggested to me that the indicators (turn signals) look anachronistic on a mid-20th century bike but they are damned useful. A few years ago I was running a 1970 Triumph TR6 - it probably came out of the factory with signals but they had been removed. It is quite awkward coming up to a right-turn junction where you have to cross the traffic, be prepared to brake, manage the throttle to change down the gears and give a clear hand signal at the same time.

That bike had a diabolical electrical system. The original rectifier was still there resembling a stack of bent tin lids with some green copper wires snaking between them. Needless to say, the charging system didn't work despite fictions offered up by the seller - he had wired the ammeter reverse polarity. Ahem! When I bought that bike I knew nothing about bike electrics but I had to learn and in the end I ripped out everything, one wire at a time, noting where it went to and from. Then simplified and omitted unnecessary elements, and rebuilt the system using tracer wire and 3.9mm bullets. Taught me a lot. Have since re-wired my XS650.

The Bullet is a lot newer and the wiring looks not too bad. If I re-wire the bike it will hopefully be more a case of going through and removing everything I can do without. Such as engine cut out and clutch safety switch . . .
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: richard211 on November 23, 2021, 05:54:38 pm
First and foremost, as a quick search of this Forum section's Archive of the term "sprag" should quickly reveal, you would do well to NEVER use that electric start. I mean, don't even look at it! Learn to kickstart it only, and both you and she will be MUCH happier in the long run.

My own "sprag fragging" is described here: https://forum.classicmotorworks.com/index.php?topic=26991.0;all

On the the electric start equipped Iron barrel engine would it be safer to turn on the de-compressor, press the electric start switch which would spin the engine over freely, release the de-compressor and let go of the electric start switch once the engine fires up? Objective being that it would be similar as doing a roll start in second gear and popping the clutch?
 
 
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Paul W on November 23, 2021, 05:56:05 pm
Nope.

Glad to hear it. Not long ago I was shown photos of a modified “hybrid” bike where the owner had modified the front end for better manoeuvrability and I asked him the same question. He hadn’t fully compressed the suspension and when he did so the front wheel fouled against the down tube. It wasn’t usable so it became a scrap yard job!
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Raymond on November 23, 2021, 06:08:25 pm
On the the electric start equipped Iron barrel engine would it be safer to turn on the de-compressor, press the electric start switch which would spin the engine over freely, release the de-compressor and let go of the electric start switch once the engine fires up? Objective being that it would be similar as doing a roll start in second gear and popping the clutch?

Hmmm. Maybe the safest option as Bilgemaster says is to completely avoid touching that button.
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: AzCal Retred on November 23, 2021, 06:19:15 pm
My 2 pesos:

Kudos on the BB regulator. The OEM Indian units seem to allow battery charging voltage to hover at 16V, soon boiling the battery dry. The BB unit regulates precisely, hovering around 13.5V-14V @ full charge.

Wiring is a weak point on these. The wiring can be really simplified if you move the ignition switch to the LH battery/tool box area and let the AC headlight run continuously, the number of conductors drops precipitously. The ammeter is useful for starting, but an LED indicating point closure would be just as helpful if needed at all. Skip the ammeter & the wiring cleans up fast, use a voltmeter & clock to fill the holes.

I'm ambivalent about scrapping the kill switch. A PB grounding around the points mimics the existing main switch scheme & would require only 1 small wire. A kill PB is useful when laying in the dirt with the throttle pinned open,.

The AC headlight uses an AC regulator and Hi/Lo handlebar switch - 2 wires, L1 & N. An AC compatible LED headlight or diode bridge with smoothing cap would reduce current draw to 3-4 amps max.

Your other wiring is horn & speedo/casquette lighting, & maybe turn signals. A (+) to the horn switch and casquette LED lamps from the battery, a (-) to the casquette for actual ground, mount the horn to the triple clamps near the turn signal. Turn signals are 3 small wires, a (+) from the TS flasher unit to the switch (on-R-off-on-L), then 2 wires back to the LH & RH signals. Speedo illumination is moot, as you end up driving these machines by feel anyway, and night riding is best left to those that still heal rapidly.

The front brake switch is superfluous as is the clutch switch. The rear brake is applied when coming to a stop anyway.

If you are removing the E-start, even more wire disappears. To keep it & increase reliability, ground the solenoid at the toolbox & put a single (+) back from a start PB back to it. You don't need the permissive as the sprag can't "engage" the running engine like a bendix can, anytime engine RPM exceeds sprag speed power transmission stops. My 350ES works flawlessly now that the solenoid is getting full voltage. IF it frags AND you like the ES feature, H's has a (not cheap) kit that really improves the situation parts wise. Other than removing the ES guts & cheaply plugging off the ES starter motor hole, you'd have to buy & fit up a KS(kickstart) inner case.

I have some home-brew PDF's if you are interested in a starting point for a minimized scheme. You can modify as wanted using Microsoft Paint.

Good hunting - ACR -
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Bilgemaster on November 23, 2021, 07:50:46 pm
On the the electric start equipped Iron barrel engine would it be safer to turn on the de-compressor, press the electric start switch which would spin the engine over freely, release the de-compressor and let go of the electric start switch once the engine fires up? Objective being that it would be similar as doing a roll start in second gear and popping the clutch?

Indeed. The decompressed-start you describe, helping the crank to build up a bit of momentum, also shutting it down with the decompressor and only THEN killing the ignition, running about 800ml of Automatic Transmission Fluid (Type F if possible) in the primary drive instead of the pre-starter recommended level of 420ml, as determined by the outer case's fluid level screw (in order to better bathe the starter sprag assembly), and always, and I do mean ALWAYS having a tip-top battery in fully charged state...All of these are "folk techniques" practiced to hopefully ameliorate the Wrath of Sprag. And you know what? In the end none of them worked for me. In fact, my sprag decided to crap out all by itself one fine day after not having been prodded for weeks!

Also, that's a hearty concurrence from me on that earlier suggestion to pick up a copy of Pete Snidal's superb Bullet Service Manual, which one can do right here: http://www.enfield.20m.com/bullet1.htm

Personally, I've often found my old fashioned printed spiral-bound copy of the Royal Enfield published Spare Parts catalogue  useful, as shown in this FleaBay offering: https://www.ebay.com/itm/190978293959, but I imagine one could get along fine, perhaps even better in many respects, by simply using our Forum host's online versions. It would certainly expedite ordering, and an individual part's "Fitment" notes can be helpful.

Other beguiling Enfield-related literary objects, manuals and guides may be purchased here: https://www.royalenfieldbooks.com/index.html
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Paul W on November 23, 2021, 10:00:42 pm
Quote
The front brake switch is superfluous as is the clutch switch. The rear brake is applied when coming to a stop anyway.

Not correct for U.K. bikes. A non operative front brake light switch would cause it to fail the annual MOT test. All bikes after 1986 are required to have switches on both front and rear brake controls.  ;)
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: AzCal Retred on November 23, 2021, 10:16:26 pm
Raymond is aware of this already.

Raymond @ #15: The bike will need to have front and rear actuated brake lights to pass an MOT test.
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Raymond on November 24, 2021, 10:16:52 am
Now have the V5 registration document. Interestingly, this shows date of first registration & date of first registration in the UK as 13/2/2003. So this bike has never been registered anywhere else, which leaves me mystified about having a KPH speedo. But never mind.

Going to go in the garage and start having a look at the wiring. With the eventual objective of removing unneeded stuff such as the clutch switch - what does that do anyway? And in the fullness of time, the starter and associated gubbins.

Thank you all for helpful pointers on simplifying the electrics. Bound to be back with questions . . .
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Paul W on November 24, 2021, 11:13:00 am
If you operated the starter motor with the bike in gear, it would perhaps motor forwards unless you disengaged the clutch. Presumably, like on other bikes, the clutch switch isolates the starter motor.
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Raymond on November 24, 2021, 11:36:58 am
Thank you Paul. So to guard against people starting in gear and lurching off, it requires the clutch to be pulled every time the starter is used?

As I said, haven't used the starter yet.
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Adrian II on November 24, 2021, 01:05:10 pm
Only when you're IN gear as far as I can tell. Your 4 speed box might be different, but on my Electra with the 5 speed the neutral warning light switch and the clutch switch were wired in parallel. The neutral light switch would sometimes stick open, meaning I could not use the electric start even in neutral unless I pulled the clutch lever in.

A.
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Raymond on November 24, 2021, 01:28:03 pm
I see. I'm not too clear on the functionality but that might not matter if I dispense with the whole lot.

Attached show scene in the garage a wee while ago.
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Adrian II on November 24, 2021, 02:36:51 pm
If losing the E/S you can also tidy things up by fitting the inner primary cover of a kick start model. This involves drilling and tapping the outside of the lhs crankcase for fitting the three K/S model fixing studs, which can be done with the engine in the frame.

If you really want to simplify the electrics for a more basic 12V system, Pete Snidal's manual has a note on how to reconfigure the 4 wire alternator to pump all of its output through the reg/rectifier instead of powering the AC headlight separately. A new Lucas or Sparx alternator will fit in place of the RE (India) item, including the three phase versions, it you wanted to upgrade.

To simplify the electrics further, ditch the coil ignition and fit a Lucas SR1 magneto like the late 50's Redditch Bullets used. These bolt straight on, you just need to find the correct auto advance unit (which is actually the reason for the bulge at the top of the timing cover).

A.
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Raymond on November 24, 2021, 03:23:17 pm
Thank you for that, Adrian.

On the inner chaincase, my feeling is maybe a bit too drastic, especially for a bike I've barely ridden. Got a feeling it would open a can of worms, all the more so if the crankcases would need to be modified . . . but, and there's always a but, would something like this do?

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/144084660081?_trkparms=amclksrc%3DITM%26aid%3D1110006%26algo%3DHOMESPLICE.SIM%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20200818143230%26meid%3Dee43716fe28e4ee58f153c06cdc08253%26pid%3D101224%26rk%3D2%26rkt%3D5%26sd%3D154468183867%26itm%3D144084660081%26pmt%3D1%26noa%3D1%26pg%3D2047675%26algv%3DDefaultOrganicWeb&_trksid=p2047675.c101224.m-1

In case the link don't work, was looking at ebay and found a couple of places supplying Indian made inner chaincases at around £43. Hitchcocks seem to list used items?



BTW, the forum let me make my previous post without having to do a robot test.
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Bilgemaster on November 24, 2021, 04:52:27 pm
I see. I'm not too clear on the functionality but that might not matter if I dispense with the whole lot.

Attached show scene in the garage a wee while ago.

I cannot really discern all the wiring shown in the headlamp photo, but a quick question: Does your headlamp light up once the engine is running and the lighting switch on the handlebar basically do nothing, as is the case in USA models? If so, you may have a so-called "Dogbone connector" or jumper cable overriding the switch so that the headlamp remains in an "always-on" state while the engine's running. Removal of that intermediary "dogbone" and simply plugging the two now-free ends together will restore functionality to the switch, if you prefer that as I did. However, this is a latter-day goof for US export models to be able to conform with our later regulations. Clearly we could not be trusted to turn our own lights on and off. Of course, yours may never have had this feature, or it may already have been removed and punted into the hedges by a previous owner. I merely thought I'd mention it since you're fussing around in there anyhow. Here's a video that shows the general idea, though your headlamp style, color of the connectors and such may vary: https://youtu.be/UhQUNMKRix4
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Karl Childers on November 24, 2021, 05:46:22 pm
The Hitchcock's inner primary kit is nice as it is all inclusive,  hardware, seals, gasket, tap ,even the engine sprocket you will need. Should you ever decide to do it I've come up with a good way to index the holes so the bit doesn't wander and you get accurate bolt location.
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Raymond on November 24, 2021, 05:47:21 pm
Thank you Bilgemaster. From very limited saddle time, I think the lighting switch operates as marked - Off, Pilot, On. Can't check now because the battery is out and too many things pulled apart. But inside my headlamp doesn't look the same as in the video.

Always annoying when the legislators find it necessary to do our thinking for us because of an assumption that we are not to be trusted.

Is that a G5 in the vid? Don't know much about the various sub-models yet. Have heard of Sixty-5, E, Machismo but I don't think mine is any of those. I presume that if I could identify the correct model, that would help with finding correct wiring diagram, also parts ordering?
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Raymond on November 24, 2021, 05:50:09 pm
Thank you, Karl, we crossed in the post. How much work is required and is it doable with limited tools & expertise? And do you know how much the Hitchcocks kit costs? Many thanks in advance.
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: AzCal Retred on November 24, 2021, 06:53:25 pm
The starter is interlocked in two ways:
First there is a voodoo AC relay that blocks the start solenoid if the engine is running. It looks at the AC signal from the stator, and when frequency & voltage are high enough, the contacts open to the solenoid, blocking the PB (+).
Second is that the start solenoid is "grounded" through the neutral switch and the clutch switch in parallel. If you're either in neutral or the clutch is pulled in, the circuit to ground is completed.
The issue here is that none of these devices are particularly reliable. The AC sensing relay on my ES350 had a fluctuating reading between 5 & 80 ohms. The neutral switches are historically fairly unreliable. The handlebar clutch switch on mine already had a standing 10 ohms when the clutch was engaged, going to maybe only 50,000 ohms when released, not "infinity".

Yes, if you ground the start solenoid at the toolbox and just have a hotwire back from the start PB you can start in gear. In practice, as an adult motorcyclist with your wits about yourself, it's a non-issue. You trade dubious protection for 100% reliable start solenoid operation. My solenoid went from a half-hearted "click" to a resounding "Thwak!" after there was full battery voltage being dropped across its coil.

The real payoff is stopping for a quick picture or maybe a map read or clothing adjustment. Roll to a stop in 1st gear, key off to stop the engine. Compression holds you when parked, so no fooling with the rear brake whilst balancing. When done, key on, clutch in, hit the start button. Now you are running, already in gear. Just feed in some throttle, ease out the clutch and be on your way.

After 55 years of riding it's long ingrained behaviour as to how & when to use the clutch. As far as starting in gear with the clutch out, that learning curve was hammered flat long ago. If I want to be in neutral, I toe into it carefully & rock the bike a bit to verify, I don't care at all what the neutral lamp says.

The ES is a nice feature. My ES350 puts minimal strain on its bits, your 500 would necessarily be more so. My ES 350 makes barely one revolution before starting when warm. I always start with the kick start when cold. I have a tiny 4AH battery in Molly for now and it cranks it over just fine, remarkably enough to me. Measured DC cranking amps to the starter motor on mine is 30A. If you keep the ES feature, the precautions mentioned here by others are prudent. As I age out, I appreciate the ES option of a warm-engine restart even more. If it does frag, H's has improved bits to sort it with.

Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Karl Childers on November 24, 2021, 08:04:35 pm
https://accessories.hitchcocksmotorcycles.com/19275?ref_page=SixtyFive

It is not really difficult, remove the outer primary, remove the alternator, then clutch and engine sprocket as one unit with the primary chain, this will require the use of a few inexpensive specialty tools also from Hitchcock's.  Put the new cover in place and drill three shallow holes and thread them with the bottoming tap that is provided and install the studs. A key aspect to locating the holes is to have the transmission shaft seal in place and to visually make sure that the seal is centered on the shaft. I use a bolt in place of the chain adjuster stud to loosely hold the inner primary in place which frees up a hand to make adjustments. I use a sleeve over part of the drill bit to center the drill in the primary cover holes so it does not wallow and give an off center or out of square hole. Really not all that bad to do job wise and just take your time disassembling the clutch so you know to put everything back in the right order. On jobs like this it helps me if I make notes and lay the parts out in order as my memory is not what it once was and also have not torn one of these engines down many times to have intimate knowledge of all the subsystems, if I make a few notes I can walk away for weeks and then come back to it with no problems.

Edit: they have these for both right and left hand shifters, my bike has the shifter on the left.
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Adrian II on November 24, 2021, 09:40:46 pm
Raymond,

the cover you linked too on eBay is the correct sort. Apart from the cover itself, new M8 studs and nuts and a replacement gasket where the inner cover sits on the crankcase, the tools you will need are a 6.8mm drill and a set of M8 taps.

You can see on the E/S crankcase half here where the casting has been drilled and tapped for the E/S cover screws in the 12, 4 and 8 o'clock position. The K/S inner timing cover needs them in roughly the 3, 7 and 11 0'clock position, you can see that the alloy is already there waiting to be drilled and tapped. Just don't drill all the way through to the inside of the crankcase, depth mark the drill bit to avoid breaking through.

(https://i.postimg.cc/fbrwfPMw/020-Chaincase-mounting.jpg)

You can use the K/S inner cover and a M10 drill to mark the hole centres for drilling and tapping, this is easier with the engine and gearbox in the frame, as fitting the inner cover over the clutch shaft further helps with alignment. Note this is a different style of inner primary cover, if you buy the normal Bullet type it won't have the M6 holes around the edge, but the principle is the same.

(https://i.postimg.cc/g2Kj84wJ/021-KS-casing-line-up.jpg)

(https://i.postimg.cc/pdTW8vbG/022-10mm-drill-1.jpg)


As you're in the UK, don't forget you can also buy Indian RE Bullet spares from Price Part Motorcycles. Burton bike bits have some parts for the Bullet too.

https://www.pricepartmotorcycles.co.uk/

https://burtonbikebits.net/royal-enfield-parts/

A.
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Raymond on November 24, 2021, 10:20:04 pm
Gentlemen, thank you All for your comments & advice. I have a few options available, and that is always a good thing. It makes some sense to keep the e-start as an option. It also seems the conversion is reasonably straightforward and not ruinously expensive.

It's late and I'm off to bed soon. Often, issues become a lot clearer while I'm in bed. It's amazing how often I've woke up at 2-3 am with some idea broadcasting itself loud and clear.

But if that doesn't happen, then at least in the short term I'll probably leave my options open and not do anything too drastic. After all, the main thing is to have a reliable bike I can go out on and enjoy. But before that there's a long and salty Scottish Winter to get through . . .

Happy that I can now post without proving I'm not a robot every time.
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Raymond on November 25, 2021, 11:47:05 am
This morning, tough combination of plastic sleeve and layers of insulating tape puts up valiant resistance:

Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: tooseevee on November 25, 2021, 12:13:19 pm
This morning, tough combination of plastic sleeve and layers of insulating tape puts up valiant resistance:

           Had the same ungodly sticky mess on my '08 AVL. Many just twisted bare wire splices inside that mess of electrical tape. Hours of work to get it all bullet-proof front to back & simplify everything in that whole left case. The factory, especially the new one, got much better over the years since then.
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Raymond on November 25, 2021, 03:32:16 pm
 . . . and when I reached the dip in front of the rocker box and behind the headstock, the sleeve was full of water.

Never mind, before I started the bike had a fully operational electrical system. So tomorrow I can start tracing the parts I don't need and remove them. Then we'll see if it's still working . . .
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Adrian II on November 25, 2021, 05:27:27 pm
Check the wires where the wiring loom flexes around the headstock, these can become brittle. I've had a battery to ammeter lead snap at that point.

For total rewires - though hopefully yours won't need one - I love THIS stuff. Available in 10 core as well, in case you DO ditch the E/S.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/261266757164

A.

Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: cyrusb on November 25, 2021, 05:28:43 pm
Wellcome, Did you mention the mileage?
 Judging by the chain adjuster position it may be low.
 Also do you think it may have had it's head off in the past?
 Enjoy, it's a good looking machine that landed in the right place.
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Raymond on November 25, 2021, 06:25:14 pm
Thank you Adrian - I usually go to these people:

https://www.vehiclewiringproducts.co.uk/

They supply thin tracer wire in a huge range of colours, Japanese-style 3.9 mm bullet connectors - ought to be ideal? - and loads of electrical parts for cars and bikes.

The wiring on the bike seems to be generally in good condition. Reflects that hopefully the bike has had very light use and a lot of care. Some changes from standard wiring, such as the Boyer Power box. And I don't know which wiring diagram would be correct. The one I was given, mentioned at post #12, seems to be close. Plus it's in colour!

And thank you Cyrus B, you are very kind. The bike has recorded just short of 10,000 KM which would be about 6,200 miles. Of course, it's an eighteen-year old bike . . . but I do have a pile of MOT certificates back to 2009 and they seem to verify that figure.

No idea at the moment whether the head has ever been off.
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: cyrusb on November 25, 2021, 08:09:21 pm
That mileage isn't that unusual. My '05 has just over 10k miles.
 Many owners have other bikes like yourself, using the Bullet sparingly as a time machine.
  I asked about the head because it appears to have been painted.
 Did you get the stock ignition with the bike? It's EMP proof!!! ;D
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Raymond on November 26, 2021, 09:42:58 am
Yes, Cyrus, the cylinder head is painted black with relieved edges to the fins. I thought it had come out of the factory like that? If not, then I guess that suggests the head has been taken off at some time.

Hardly any saddle time yet but I get what you mean by time machine. Hoping mine will fill the rôle of Gentleman's motorcycle and let me potter around on local country roads in mid-twentieth century fashion.

The bike has a Boyer Power box but so far as I have seen so far the standard ignition system with old-fashioned points. Which this gentleman rider will need to learn how to set correctly.
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: richard211 on November 26, 2021, 05:50:00 pm
There has been a lot of quality issues with the older factory wiring harness. But better quality aftermarket wiring looms are available. The photo attached is for the iron barrel with a 4 wire alternator, but uses the modern handle bar switches and is plug and play.
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: cyrusb on November 26, 2021, 05:55:00 pm
Yes, Cyrus, the cylinder head is painted black with relieved edges to the fins. I thought it had come out of the factory like that? If not, then I guess that suggests the head has been taken off at some time.

Hardly any saddle time yet but I get what you mean by time machine. Hoping mine will fill the rôle of Gentleman's motorcycle and let me potter around on local country roads in mid-twentieth century fashion.

The bike has a Boyer Power box but so far as I have seen so far the standard ignition system with old-fashioned points. Which this gentleman rider will need to learn how to set correctly.
Whoops, I see Boyer and automatically think ignition. Its great you still have the original points. I converted mine to VW/Mercedes one piece units right after I bought the bike. My motto " I must be able to do this drunk in the dark". So now its one screw and one spade connector. Funny thing is, I'm still running the first set. 10k still fine. Grease on the rubbing block and a little oil on the advance unit is the key.
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Adrian II on November 26, 2021, 06:54:37 pm
Thank you Adrian - I usually go to these people:

https://www.vehiclewiringproducts.co.uk/

They supply thin tracer wire in a huge range of colours, Japanese-style 3.9 mm bullet connectors - ought to be ideal? - and loads of electrical parts for cars and bikes.

The wiring on the bike seems to be generally in good condition. Reflects that hopefully the bike has had very light use and a lot of care. Some changes from standard wiring, such as the Boyer Power box. And I don't know which wiring diagram would be correct. The one I was given, mentioned at post #12, seems to be close. Plus it's in colour!

And thank you Cyrus B, you are very kind. The bike has recorded just short of 10,000 KM which would be about 6,200 miles. Of course, it's an eighteen-year old bike . . . but I do have a pile of MOT certificates back to 2009 and they seem to verify that figure.

No idea at the moment whether the head has ever been off.

I have used Vehicle Wiring Products in the past, I used to get their printed catalogues. Also AES and Towzatronics, (the latter on eBay), as well as nipping into Halfords for extra reels of red and black 8A wire. The Japanese style 3.9mm bullet connectors are very good (I prefer those to the old 3/16" Lucas bullet types), I suspect a box of assorted 2.8mm block terminals will come in handy.

The Power Box is an expensive way of adding a capacitor to a reg/rectifier unit, but it will let you kickstart the engine with a flat battery, on UK models at least. I remember running BSAs with a 2MC capacitor instead of a battery.

Not sure why wiring diagrams should be an issue, but I noticed that the downloadable manual from Hitchcocks' seems to be missing the electric start version! Odd to have such a glaring omission. The one you posted back at post #12 is the one I would have pointed you to from the Snidal manual, though with one word of caution, which I think Bilgemaster has already raised - since the late 60's US market models were required to have power for the light switch routed through the ignition switch, I certainly remember this on BSA wiring diagrams. You can while away the time hunkering down from Storm Arwen with a glass or two of something decent, poring over the connections to see whether that's for a US or UK market bike...

Black painted cylinder heads will have been owner mods where iron barrel engines are concerned (unless you go back into Redditch history where the cylinder heads were cast iron too). Nowadays the RE factory splurges black coating over pretty much everything.

A.
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Raymond on November 30, 2021, 09:45:36 am
Not much progress, due to life and suchlike. Have pulled the wiring harness apart but haven't decided yet just how much stuff I'll get rid of.

Mentioned earlier that the handlebar switches don't really fit with the 1950s ethos of the rest of the bike. So have been looking at that internet to see what is available. Might have to mix'n'match some of what's on offer. Maybe some metal switch units and a chrome decompressor lever?

At least it will give me something to play about with now Winter is upon us.

Oh, and the question I meant to ask - setting the timing. The book says 0.8 mm BTDC. Watched some chap try rather unconvincingly to measure using a device put in through the plug hole. I wondered if it wouldn't be more accurate to pull the chaincase off and use a cardboard dial on the alternator rotor?
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Adrian II on November 30, 2021, 11:10:50 am
That's the fully-retarded figure for the ignition, should be OK if the auto-advance unit hasn't worn. Setting at the fully-advanced figure of 32° BTDC (if it actually needs adjusting) will give you the chance to take up any slack in the timing gear train while you're at it.

Going retro on the switch gear won't be a problem, especially if you're re-wiring. Move the ignition switch from the casquette to (e.g.) one of the tool boxes and that frees up the original lighting switch position. Plenty of repro switches available, though of course they're intended for DC headlights, and you might not actually need a pack of 5!

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/324880443151?hash=item4ba462270f:g:xgcAAOSwXtRZdw11

You can then use something like this for the horn/dip indicator switch, which isn't much wider than the old Wipac Ducon switch (copies of which are also still available).

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/324849234095?hash=item4ba285f0af:g:RlwAAOSwvsxhduZK

A.

Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: tooseevee on November 30, 2021, 12:03:17 pm
You can then use something like this for the horn/dip indicator switch, which isn't much wider than the old Wipac Ducon switch (copies of which are also still available).

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/324849234095?hash=item4ba285f0af:g:RlwAAOSwvsxhduZK

A.

           That is a really nice looking switch set. I wish now that I had used something like that back when I had all the wires on my '08 apart & did away with the decompressor lever on the bulky OEM switch set. My hands no longer love fiddling with wiring & even the bifocals & getting the light just right are a royal PITA now.
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Raymond on November 30, 2021, 12:50:45 pm
Thank you for the replies. Tooseevee, can so relate to your remarks about fiddling - I use reading specs in the garage but still can't see proper when kneeling down trying to see sumfing in the gloom.

Since my previous post made some possibly injudicious purchases. These switches appear to be similar to the one Adrian suggested (great minds?) plus it's partner in crime:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/372820779652

Which does away with the decompressor so also bought this:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/370956698653

Hope links work. Fitting that lever plus the switch block might pose problems but hey sometimes you just gotta see what will work?

Also since my pervious post, found a video on using a degree disc to set timing. The chap put his disk on timing side of engine and took the opportunity to show how much play there is in the gear train to the distributor. Somebody else used a strobe to check timing and found that with static set at 8° BTDC, when he revved fully advanced went out to 50°! It seems that sometimes the advance mechanism gets a bit, uhm, slack?

Well, looking on the bright side, a few degrees latitude (ha) might not be as critical as on a later generation more highly-tuned engine?


Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: tooseevee on November 30, 2021, 06:46:37 pm
Thank you for the replies. Tooseevee, can so relate to your remarks about fiddling -

Which does away with the decompressor so also bought this:
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/370956698653

Hope links work. Fitting that lever plus the switch block might pose problems but hey sometimes you just gotta see what will work?


            I worked with that same lever for quite a while many years ago & tried every trick in my book to make it work with the original AVL cable. Never had good luck. The "throw" of the lever was not right for the length of free cable in the housing. That's when I just removed the whole thing from the lever on down to the mechanism in the tappet cover & got a new plain black tappet cover.

            So I can't kick start it cold now, but it's a pretty easy kicker after it's been warmed up. 9.8:1 comp is tough now with my 120 pounds & steady loss of muscle mass these last 10 or 15 years. So the first start of any given day is with the button.
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: AzCal Retred on November 30, 2021, 06:47:38 pm
There are new advance springs available thru Hitchcocks; mine were a bit fatigued and wouldn't return 100% consistently. so kick-back was an intermittent issue. Time at full retard, that covers the kick back issue as long as the advance springs are taunt enough. Full advance inconsistencies don't have a lot of practical effect, just run premium, it'll be fine at 6.5/1.

Degree wheeling a Bullet has some application when dialing in high lift cams, but there's a lot of slop built in to this engine. "Ping-Timing" is good enough.

The Boyer ignition has the function of using a very retarded setting when starting, only advancing when the RPM gets above 500 or so, well beyond KS speeds. It is useful if retaining the ES as it effectively eliminates kick-back when starting. You still have the timing gear slop, but I think an effectively wider advance spread. When under load, the timing gear oil drag likely keeps the advance curve approximately correct.

This engine is a portal back to 1935, an affordable antique, not a modern clean sheet design. It's warts are all part of the character, it provides the actual experience afforded the 1935 rider. Modern machines have an 80 year advantage on the Bullet, but they are still a fun ride. Pretty reliable too, once you get the kinks ironed out.


Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Paul W on November 30, 2021, 07:45:00 pm
Having read about the timing slop of the gear driven distributor I’m glad that by chance I found a fairly unusual Indian home market iron 350. I didn’t know quite what I was buying because I had no previous RE experience.

The TCI ignition on these bikes runs off the left side of the crank (hey, just like something modern) so there’s no slop or backlash in the system. Timing gears, their shafts and distributor are redundant and aren’t fitted, although the timing side cases are exactly the same as if they were. The only things in the timing case are the cam wheels.

The downside is that there’s no way of adjusting the timing, or even checking what it is! It’s effectively a sealed system. The bike won’t even run with the primary chain case cover removed because the alternator stator and ignition trigger sensor are bolted inside it. The TCI control box lives under the seat. From what little I know, the advance curve is altered electronically depending on engine rpm, but being all solid state there’s nothing to wear in the mechanical sense.
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Adrian II on November 30, 2021, 09:03:26 pm
Hitchcocks' were actually playing with a prototype crank-mounted TCI and Electra-type alternator conversion in place of points, but they didn't go ahead with it and sold off the prototype in their used parts section.

Wear in the traditional set-up for the iron barrel Bullets can be in the ATD itself, or the drive gears and their bushings, or a combination of both. If the engine is in good condition with minimal wear than can still be a bit of slop/ backlash in the drive train, cumulatively it can add up to about 10° variance! However it is possible to compensate for this by winding on the "distributor" or magneto pinion anti-clockwise when setting the ignition timing fully advanced so that all the slop is taken up with the crank at 32°. Not perfect but good enough for these old things.

If you REALLY want a crank-mounted electronic ignition on an older points Bullet, Electrex World in the UK sell a CDI system, which fits in place of the alternator. You can get these with or without lighting coils, but the lighting output on these isn't up to much, at least not on the versions I have seen from them so far. 

https://www.electrexworld.co.uk/acatalog/STK-100D.html

A.
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Adrian II on November 30, 2021, 09:33:00 pm
I forgot to ask, does your new right-hand switch have provision for the throttle twist-grip, or is it just a switch body only?

The old-style decompressor handlebar lever ought to work OK with the iron barrel decompressor valve, which doesn't have a particularly strong spring on it.

A.
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Paul W on November 30, 2021, 10:24:26 pm
Hitchcocks' were actually playing with a prototype crank-mounted TCI and Electra-type alternator conversion in place of points, but they didn't go ahead with it and sold off the prototype in their used parts section.

Wear in the traditional set-up for the iron barrel Bullets can be in the ATD itself, or the drive gears and their bushings, or a combination of both. If the engine is in good condition with minimal wear than can still be a bit of slop/ backlash in the drive train, cumulatively it can add up to about 10° variance! However it is possible to compensate for this by winding on the "distributor" or magneto pinion anti-clockwise when setting the ignition timing fully advanced so that all the slop is taken up with the crank at 32°. Not perfect but good enough for these old things.

A.

Strange, bearing in mind that RE produced these TCI bikes.

I used to build Lucas distributors for my souped up Reliant 850 engine. They suffered from similar problems with the centrifugal advance mechanism. I tried different springs (they had two, one weak, one stronger), fitted bobweights from dissys out of other vehicles, welded and filed stops until I got the performance I wanted.

The timing still “fluttered”, especially at idle and low revs and I came to realise that the reason was variations in the timing chain. These engines run the oil pump, the distributor and the camshaft off the same drive. A worn chain affects the valve timing, too! A heavy duty chain of better quality than the factory original type steadied it all down. I eventually decided to go modern tech, locked the advance mechanism up completely and fitted a simple ECU which allowed me to tune it up using my laptop.
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: AzCal Retred on December 01, 2021, 12:18:53 am
Another option if you have a friend with a lathe is to build some spring loaded vertically split gears. Honda did this in the wayback to remove some clutch drive straight-cut gear noise. The spring tension rotates one gear half relative to the other a bit, maintaining constant contact so the gear couldn't chatter. In the Bullet timing gear set up there is little actual load, so a spring-loaded idler gear & maybe the distributor gear too should be able to effectively eliminate the gear lash effect on timing. 
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Raymond on December 01, 2021, 09:23:04 am
Gentlemen, thank you All for your replies and for taking an interest in my little bike. Or perhaps I will need to call it my little hobby?

It must be clear that I have an awful lot to learn about the Bullet in all areas, engine and electrics and the rest.

It was only yesterday that I followed up on peoples' mention of AC headlamp. Still do not fully understand how that works - the Bullet uses AC and an AC regulator to power the headlamp, side/pilot lights and tail light, but uses rectified DC for the ignition and charging. As I trace out the wiring - bit slow but will probably get there - hoping it will become clearer whether my bike still uses AC for the lights. There is a little black box under the saddle with Red and Yellow/Red wires which might be an AC regulator? But there is the distinct possibility that the PO who fitted a Boyer Bransden Power box will have changed that to using DC for everything? Ah well, getting to know you . . .

AzCal, I will have to take a look at the advance mechanism and assess whether there is sloppiness which might be reduced with new return springs. Will very likely be back with further questions

Paul W and Adrian, I don't think I will be able to go to crank triggered spark timing without a lot of expense or work so that will be off the cards for now.

Adrian, in answer to your question about the r/h switch, I looked at the pictures in ebay and concluded that there was no provision for throttle so I bought this as well, which I forgot to mention yesterday:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/322835261046?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2649

Going to have to see how all those items will fit along the handlebar. But at least the bike has bar end mirrors.

AzCal, your suggestion of spring-loaded timing wheels to eliminate lash is very interesting, maybe something RE should have thought about? Think I'll have to leave somebody else to develop that idea.

Hoping some parcels might start to arrive today.



Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: richard211 on December 01, 2021, 10:59:43 am
Before Royal Enfield introduced the TCI based ignition. There was a CDI option available for both the 350 Iron Barrel and AVL engines, the reluctor replaced the distance piece / spacer between the sprocket and the magnet / rotor. The reluctor was held in place with a key. A bracket with a pick up coil was also added under the spacers that sits behind the alternator coil. The alternator had 6 wires. 4 of which was for the commonly found AC/DC wiring. Out of the 6 poles on the alternator 1 pole was dedicated just for the CDI. Which meant there was no need to have a battery to start the engine and it was easy to start the engine with a single kick. The CDI was not available on the Electric Start models.
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Raymond on December 01, 2021, 11:23:35 am
Now that is interesting, Richard. Referring to your diagram, I take it that 9 is the reluctor and 10 is the pickup coil on its bracket? Makes me wonder whether any other parts would need to be changed and indeed if the parts are available.

Not saying I would go down that route but it does seem to avoid the problems of erratic spark timing.
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: richard211 on December 01, 2021, 12:14:42 pm
Now that is interesting, Richard. Referring to your diagram, I take it that 9 is the reluctor and 10 is the pickup coil on its bracket? Makes me wonder whether any other parts would need to be changed and indeed if the parts are available.


Not saying I would go down that route but it does seem to avoid the problems of erratic spark timing.


Hi Raymond, yes you are right as per the diagram part 9 is the reluctor and 10 is the pickup coil. The left hand shaft of the crank, (clutch side) had a keyway cut into it to hold the reluctor in place. There is a specific part number for that shaft. But that would require pulling apart the engine and crankshaft. What I would try in case I did not want to pull the engine apart is to drill a hole through the reluctor sleeve and tap it such that a small grub screw could be attached. That would also require a very shallow locating hole on the shaft. I am sure there are better ways to do it.
 To wire it up I would tap into the 2 wires that go from the alternator to the regulator rectifier if it's an AC/DC configuration for the power input for the CDI unit. Then you would just need to wire up the pick up coil and the small CDI ignition coil. To shut down the engine just use the de-compressor.
 I don't think these parts are available outside India. But if you are interested just let me know and I can check the availability.
 
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Raymond on December 01, 2021, 01:24:19 pm
Richard, thank you for that very kind offer. But I will decline - over the winter, I will go over the Bullet and check as much as I can think of. Come the better weather next year, I will be able to start using the bike and I will find out then what further things need to be done. There might be things that need to be fixed and in the longer term there will be upgrades and improvements.

So for now, will continue to figure out the electrics and see if I can use the switchgear I have bought. Cheers, Raymond
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: richard211 on December 01, 2021, 01:43:21 pm
Richard, thank you for that very kind offer. But I will decline - over the winter, I will go over the Bullet and check as much as I can think of. Come the better weather next year, I will be able to start using the bike and I will find out then what further things need to be done. There might be things that need to be fixed and in the longer term there will be upgrades and improvements.

So for now, will continue to figure out the electrics and see if I can use the switchgear I have bought. Cheers, Raymond

No worries, hopefully you able to get your bullet sorted out soon without much trouble.
Richard
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Paul W on December 01, 2021, 04:31:25 pm
Raymond,

Only the headlight is AC powered; the other lights (sidelights, indicators, stop lamp) and the horn, remain powered by DC. If you think about it, the latter do need to work off the battery.  ;)
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Raymond on December 01, 2021, 06:00:17 pm
Paul, thank you for that! As I said, got a lot to learn.

I'm kinda hoping PO has fixed it so everything is DC - will be easier for me to understand 'coz I've never come across a bike with an AC/DC system before. But then again, I'm hoping to leave the lights wiring in place rather than going berserk and ripping everything out.

The wiring looks to be in Good condition so hopefully has been worked on by somebody who knows what they are doing. So far have found a lot of Grey and Grey/Black wires to the pilot lights, instrument lights (?) and tail light. There's Red and Yellow/Red to a little black box under the seat which might be the AC regulator, so the headlamp perhaps still on a separate system.

The chrome decompressor lever arrived today and looks lovely so I hope I can use it!
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Adrian II on December 01, 2021, 07:52:54 pm
Quote
There's Red and Yellow/Red to a little black box under the seat which might be the AC regulator, so the headlamp perhaps still on a separate system.

Yep, that's it. AC headlight. Only works with the engine running.

The only issue with the handlebar lever might be the barrel nipple on the end of the existing decomp valve cable. I think these are made of quite soft metal and can easily be filed to shape.

I deliberately didn't mention the RE factory-fitted CDI system as I thought it would muddy the water. We're bombarding you with enough information as it is!  ::) ::) ::)

The models fitted were the kick-start A350 Machismo and kick-start 350 Thunderbird (both of these were lean-burn models), as well as the very early 350 iron barrel Electra from about 2002. CDI didn't last long on the Electra and was replaced the following year with the TCI system which is on Paul's bike.

If you really, REALLY wanted a factory CDI on your Bullet the parts are still available from India, though as has been noted it uses a different drive-side main shaft on the crank, with the key way cut for the reluctor rather than the alternator rotor. There is a slot in the face of the alternator rotor which engages with a lump on the reluctor to fix the rotor on the shaft. You could either try tracking down the relevant main shaft or fit an early 350 Electra crank rebalanced for a 500 piston. If your engine is in good condition I frankly wouldn't bother.

I still quite like this system as the CDI ignition is independent of the rest of the electrics, giving you in effect an electronic flywheel magneto. The headlights are AC on these too, meaning the DC charging system only has to look after the sidelights, stop/tail light, horn and indicators. But all of this is still only using a clone of the Lucas alternator stator, with 1 core dedicated to the CDI charging coil, and the remaining five coils split 3/2 between the AC headlight and the rest of the electrics.

It just so happens that I have most of the kit for this, one of my unfinished project bikes was to have been based around a 350 Machismo crankshaft, rebalanced for a 500 Electra-X piston in a set of Electra-X crankcases. I still have that too, but the plan now is to fit an engine built into a set of iron barrel Bullet crankcases with a proper old BTH magneto.

(https://i.postimg.cc/7LwnnpSt/DSCN7011.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

(https://i.postimg.cc/52wmvxQF/DSCN7012.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

(https://i.postimg.cc/cLqmrKCS/DSCN7013.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

(https://i.postimg.cc/xTN5fG05/DSCN7014.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

Not shown, the CDI black box and ignition coil.

A.



Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Paul W on December 01, 2021, 11:48:02 pm
Quote
I'm kinda hoping PO has fixed it so everything is DC - will be easier for me to understand 'coz I've never come across a bike with an AC/DC system before. But then again, I'm hoping to leave the lights wiring in place rather than going berserk and ripping everything out.

I've found the electrics on my 350 to be OK so far - the only thing that concerns me is how flimsy some of the connectors look, especially the main leads to the battery. One of these days I'll get around to fitting beefier ones. However, I soon realised that the main electrical load is the headlight and because that is AC it doesn't involve the battery! So for now it can all stay as is.

The TCI ignition does need DC to power it, similar to points, but apparently it only needs 7 volts. I had a problem with a duff battery on my old phone and found it had failed a couple of times while I was out on the bike, to the concern of my wife(!). I decided to fit a USB connector and found a simple switched module which goes on the handlebars and as a bonus has a digital volts readout. I switch it on before riding the bike to check the voltage then again with the engine running to confirm the battery is getting charged; more accurate than the ammeter. Once I've seen readings of 12.4 and 14.8 respectively, job done, I'm happy and switch it off again. I don't see a need to connect the phone whilst riding; if I needed it charging up I'd be stopped and off the bike anyway.
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Adrian II on December 02, 2021, 11:11:00 am
Quote
The TCI ignition does need DC to power it, similar to points, but apparently it only needs 7 volts.

Some TCIs are a LOT fussier about a good starting voltage. The Boyer Brandsen Mk3 would notoriously go full-advance in case of a voltage drop. Before the whole pile of mangled RE Electra-X sprag clutches, there was a pile of mangled Mk3 850 Norton Commando sprag clutches. BB claimed to have fixed this with the Mk4.

The RE CDI ignition is self-generating, so would have been a better bet for the Electra-X, except that, I suspect, the 6 wire alternator would have had a hard job keeping a 14AH battery sufficiently charged for regular E/S use, at least as it came configured from the factory.

A.
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: richard211 on December 02, 2021, 05:08:08 pm
A common upgrade for the older TCI units in India is to use the TCI unit off the UCE 350 engines (Classic / Electra 350) and leave the plug for the TPS disconnected (only disadvantage being the TCI unit runs on the base ignition map, which still works fine). With regards to the AC/DC electrical system, people who have to use their bullets at night, just have the alternator stator rewound as a 3 phase Alternator and use a AVL / UCE 3 phase voltage regulator. That also involves having the headlight wiring converted to a DC configuration, but its possible to run a 60/55w halogen headlight bulb with a steady light output and at the same time you would end up with a much better charging system.
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Paul W on December 02, 2021, 05:46:52 pm
That sounds like an awful lot of work! Any idea what the advantage is? I haven’t yet found any problem with the ‘standard’ TCI system. I’m quite happy with the output of the AC headlight, too.
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: richard211 on December 02, 2021, 06:16:42 pm
That sounds like an awful lot of work! Any idea what the advantage is? I haven’t yet found any problem with the ‘standard’ TCI system. I’m quite happy with the output of the AC headlight, too.

 Usually when the old TCI fails, its not always easy to find an immediate replacement TCI unit (Black TCI Unit) whereas the UCE TCI unit is available everywhere. A common failure that I found with the CDI and TCI units, is that the solder joints tend to crack and cause an open circuit but re soldering them seems to work just fine.
 While the 3 phase alternator conversion and wiring sounds like a lot of work, the easier way is to take care of the wiring is to use the wiring harness off a Machismo or Electra / Thunderbird (carburetor models) which are also available with electric start. The ignition coil will require a switched positive feed. The TCI connectors can be left unused. This will also allow the headlight to run on DC power. If the handle bar switches are the modern type ( early 2000 - current ) it's a plug and play install.
 There are both Royal Enfield and aftermarket wiring harnesses available. Its also a very cheap conversion to do in India and does not take more than an hour to do it.
 
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Adrian II on December 02, 2021, 07:09:48 pm
The electrics on the E/S Indian market AVL and E/S iron barrel Electra are much more like the UK/US Electra-X or the US AVL Classic.

A three phase conversion for the iron barrel AC/DC Bullets is an option in the UK too, though it might be easier simply to fit a Lucas or Sparx three-phase stator and suitable reg/rectifier, making sure the switch gear is configured properly for all-DC. If the Indian alternator rotor still has good magnetism it can be re-used.

There is also a Lucas-made high-output version of the 4 wire stator for Indian Bullets somewhere in Mr. H's catalogue.

A.

Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Paul W on December 02, 2021, 11:10:40 pm
Thanks for the info.

I soon realised that my Indian home market, kickstart only, 350 Bullet Electra iron barrel is a relatively unusual model in U.K., so I certainly see the need to “future proof” it.

So I began buying in model specific parts when I found them. I’ve managed to find a correct “two plug” TCI control module (tried that on the bike and it works very well), a new 12 winding stator and ignition pickup, a new magneto rotor and a new wiring harness. The only thing I don’t have yet is a coil, but they seem to be readily available. All have come direct from India at a very reasonable cost.

I think I’m quite well prepared for any electrical failure and hopefully my bike can stay standard. At the moment it seems totally reliable. Over the 16,000 miles I’ve ridden it, over the last three years, the only electrical problems it’s suffered have been a tail light and the dipped headlight filament. Bearing in mind that I ride with the lights on all the time, that’s perfectly normal wear and tear.
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Adrian II on December 02, 2021, 11:41:59 pm
I think the most recent Indian carb-fitted UCE bikes had an 18 pole stator instead of the 12, three phase of course. Another possible upgrade.

A.
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: richard211 on December 03, 2021, 02:19:16 am
Paul if you are looking for an ignition coil, the UCE ignition coil should work just fine.

Adrian suggesting a 18 pole stator is a really good upgrade as well. However just be cautious because there are a few 18 pole stators available some that uses a 6mm mounting hole and others a 5mm mounting hole. The one on my Thunderbird 500 EFI has a stator whose wiring is labelled as Ducati part (part number 1040064/A) .
 I am planning to do the UCE rotor, stator and TCI unit conversion on my 350 Thunderbird out of curiousity with the TPS wired up.
 I am using a 350 UCE 29mm carburettor on the Iron barrel cylinder head. ( Engine is  based on an AVL crankcase with the flywheels and connecting rod off a G2 bullet crank shaft and the iron barrel, while retaining the AVL oil pump, the TCI ignition and the Electric start). In my opinion this carburettor seem way better compared to the VM24.

 Adrian I know you are not going to approve of the power coated cases, but I did not want to be spending my entire weekend polishing the cases especially with the heavy monsoon season we have here. 😃
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Adrian II on December 03, 2021, 09:59:55 am
What is this polishing of which you speak?   ???

Is that a 5 speed E/S Electra in a Thunderbird frame?

A.
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Paul W on December 03, 2021, 10:27:43 am
Thanks. I will just buy a coil with the correct connector, as I hate splicing wires. Is the UCE one the same? I’m not sure.

All the other parts in the charging system are already in my spares cabinet. The 12 winding stator and rotor seem far less commonly available, but I found one of each online and they didn’t cost much, actually considerably less than the later types. Since I snapped them up they haven’t been re advertised so maybe I was lucky to get them when I did. The later 18 winding type are widely advertised but I wasn’t sure if the associated rotor on the crankshaft, or the regulator, were compatible. As I was buying my parts direct from India I wanted to be sure I had the right parts straight away; sending them back would be impractical.

 TBH, I have found the standard charging system more than adequate; as it never had an electric start it has the smaller battery and probably doesn’t need any more capacity. I seldom ride this bike at night but when I have done I’ve found the headlight quite adequate.

My bike has the right side gear change/left side rear brake so it retains the cases without the apertures for the cross over shaft and it doesn’t have the electric start inner case. I converted a 5 speed gearbox to right side to suit it. The 26mm Concentric carb I’ve fitted works very well.

I see you have the later, gear type oil pumps. Was this a modification you have done?
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Raymond on December 03, 2021, 10:42:42 am
Thank you again - you have given me a lot to think about.

However, some of those changes are not things I would think about, in the short term at any rate. For now, my main internal debate is whether & how far to go in removing the starter and associated wiring.

Today, the cheap alloy handlebar switches have turned up - photo attached. To my surprise, the r/h switch does have provision for throttle cable - this was neither mentioned in the seller's description nor visible in the ebay photos.

But don't hold your breath to see them fitted. I need to plot out the present wiring and fink about what I'll change or remove before I'll get around to fitting.
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Paul W on December 03, 2021, 11:25:35 am
You could just disconnect the starter motor and leave everything in place for now. No doubt you will eventually want to check and adjust the primary drive chain so the outer casing will have to be removed…it’s only one step further to get at the sprag drive.
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: richard211 on December 03, 2021, 11:57:58 am
What is this polishing of which you speak?   ???

Is that a 5 speed E/S Electra in a Thunderbird frame?

A.

I meant a shiny mirror surface finish on the engine and gearbox 😄.
The engine is not an Electra engine although its supposed to look like one. It's something I put together, this Thunderbird originally came with a 350 AVL engine with the 5 speed gearbox, electric start with TCI ignition and the disc brake. After the AVL engine started rattling (connecting rod big end bearing on it's way out). I took apart the engine. I did happen to find a scrapped cylinder head, barrel and crankshaft (G2 crankshaft and connecting rod) of an old iron barrel bullet relatively cheap. So I thought why not put the iron barrel engine parts in the AVL crankcases. I had to get the AVL timing shaft and engine output shaft to fit on the iron barrel flywheels since I wanted to retain the electric start, TCI ignition and also the AVL gear type oil pumps. Then I had to get the oil flow rate sorted out since the AVL pumps have a much higher flow rate than the Iron Barrel oil pumps and I did not want the AVL oil pump worm drive  and oil pump spindle to wear out quickly due to gear pumps being under a lot of strain since the oil passages on the iron barrel connecting rod pin and big end bush as well as the cylinder head being very restrictive. The carburetor is off an UCE 350 and they are slightly bigger than the 350 AVL carburetor, I had to make an adapter plate that had a flange surface so the carburetor could bolt straight to the iron barrel cylinder head much like how the VM24 carburetor did, unlike the rubber manifold that came on the AVL 350 and carburetor UCE engines. This allowed me to use the stock Thunderbird 350 air box and air filter, since I did not want water getting into the intake during the monsoon seasons.
 I wanted the final result to look as if this engine was put together by Royal Enfield and was provided as a factory option. I ended up dismantling the Thunderbird completely and did a ground up restoration on it.
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: tooseevee on December 03, 2021, 12:03:53 pm
You could just disconnect the starter motor and leave everything in place for now. No doubt you will eventually want to check and adjust the primary drive chain so the outer casing will have to be removed…it’s only one step further to get at the sprag drive.

           It's just a bit of an oversimplification to say "it's only one step further". You have to call removing the whole primary drive & clutch & the inner primary at least a few steps. And there are also a couple special tools (pullers) required. But you're correct in that it's all pretty straight forward work if you have at least a little bit of experience with bikes.

            And there are dozens of YooToob videos on every aspect of these bikes.
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: richard211 on December 03, 2021, 12:34:53 pm
Thanks. I will just buy a coil with the correct connector, as I hate splicing wires. Is the UCE one the same? I’m not sure.

All the other parts in the charging system are already in my spares cabinet. The 12 winding stator and rotor seem far less commonly available, but I found one of each online and they didn’t cost much, actually considerably less than the later types. Since I snapped them up they haven’t been re advertised so maybe I was lucky to get them when I did. The later 18 winding type are widely advertised but I wasn’t sure if the associated rotor on the crankshaft, or the regulator, were compatible. As I was buying my parts direct from India I wanted to be sure I had the right parts straight away; sending them back would be impractical.

 TBH, I have found the standard charging system more than adequate; as it never had an electric start it has the smaller battery and probably doesn’t need any more capacity. I seldom ride this bike at night but when I have done I’ve found the headlight quite adequate.

My bike has the right side gear change/left side rear brake so it retains the cases without the apertures for the cross over shaft and it doesn’t have the electric start inner case. I converted a 5 speed gearbox to right side to suit it. The 26mm Concentric carb I’ve fitted works very well.

I see you have the later, gear type oil pumps. Was this a modification you have done?

The First generation UCE engines used the same ignition coil and connectors as the AVL / Electra. Royal Enfield had made changes to the ignition coil cables so some were intended to be used with the resistor spark plug cap and the others for a non resistor spark plug cap. It was mostly for electrical noise suppression.

 The gear pumps came with the thunderbird crankcase since the engine was an AVL engine.
 
 The 12 pole stator is more than adequate for the Electra. I meant to say the non TCI models which had the Lucas copy stator that had the AC headlight was a terrible idea, because the headlight brightness depended solely on engine rpm, higher the engine rpm brighter the headlight output and at idle or low rpm the light is very dim.

 I wanted to ask you about which twin plug TCI unit you got, was it the blue color? If its the blue one by bridging the TPS terminals with a switch you can advance the timing, it was intended for improved midrange and higher engine rpm. There is another TCI unit that came on UCE 500 a maroon color one, that had multiple ignition maps and used a 3 wire TPS sensor.
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Paul W on December 03, 2021, 12:57:16 pm
           It's just a bit of an oversimplification to say "it's only one step further". You have to call removing the whole primary drive & clutch & the inner primary at least a few steps. And there are also a couple special tools (pullers) required. But you're correct in that it's all pretty straight forward work if you have at least a little bit of experience with bikes.

            And there are dozens of YooToob videos on every aspect of these bikes.

Hardly rocket science, though.

I bought three puller tools when I had to remove the primary side during my gearbox swap. You really need four if you include the clutch holding tool, but I jammed the chain with a piece of folded denim cloth. I was actually quite disappointed when the drive sprocket and clutch centre just slid off once I’d removed the magneto flywheel (which definitely needed its special puller). The other special tools remain unused in my spares drawer!
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Paul W on December 03, 2021, 01:06:32 pm
Richard, the module I bought has a black case. It has a four terminal socket and a two terminal one, that’s all. It’s slightly smaller than the one that was originally on the bike. I don’t have any details of it because I found it on ebay. I don’t have a photo of it because it’s still on the bike under the seat, but this is the box it came in:

OK, I searched the part number. It’s not in Hitchcock’s list, but I found this link, which looks like it: https://www.safexbikes.com/productdetail/motorcycle-parts/tci-unit/royal-enfield-electra-4s-electra-5s-machismo-a350-thunderbird/147099A
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Bilgemaster on December 03, 2021, 01:41:39 pm
I'd have to concur with both 'Tooseevee' and 'Paul W': It's a bit more fuss, though still fairly straightforward, than "it's only one step further", but I needed no special pullers or other gizmos with mine. Your mileage may vary. But I'd still recommend only getting any "special tools" as really needed. Maybe just splurge on a little rubber mallet in advance. But also get some walnuts in the shell too, so that even that's not a total waste if the whole shebang just happily pops off. The only other "special tool" I needed was a strip of breakfast cereal box to help center up the rotor in the stator upon reassembly.

(https://i.makeagif.com/media/5-21-2015/-aeWXm.gif)
"Well, that wasn't so hard."

Of course, swapping the inner primary chain case to a non-electric-start type adds a whole level of extra fuss, I hauled my redundant starter motor around for a bit, but eventually just removed it (just a 5 minute job, if that, and easily done from outside the case), and plugged the hole with one of Hitchcocks' lovely little Starter Motor Blanks (https://accessories.hitchcocksmotorcycles.com/accessory-shop/crankshaft-engine/21512). Apart from the shed weight, I imagine the cylinder enjoys improved air flow for those rather torrid days we sometimes get here in Virginia. Hitchcocks also sells the "humpless" chain cases for not too much, but you know what? I like  my hump, and I'm not afraid to admit it. I think it provides a nice rakish and balanced counterpoint aesthetically to the timing side's "Aladdin's Lamp" or turgid upswept "Romulan Marital Aid" motif...a sort of eager forward-facing buttock, if you will.
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: tooseevee on December 03, 2021, 04:13:31 pm
Hardly rocket science, though.


       Geez Paul, that's what I said above; "it's all pretty straight forward bike work.....".

       All I meant is it's just not one more step.

       Over & out, love & kisses... :)(http://)
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Paul W on December 03, 2021, 04:25:14 pm
By the expression “only one step further” I was referring to the fact that it’s all in the inner casing…but never mind, eh?

P.s. Thanks for the affection  :-*  8)  ;D

Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: richard211 on December 03, 2021, 05:00:51 pm
Thank you again - you have given me a lot to think about.

However, some of those changes are not things I would think about, in the short term at any rate. For now, my main internal debate is whether & how far to go in removing the starter and associated wiring.

Today, the cheap alloy handlebar switches have turned up - photo attached. To my surprise, the r/h switch does have provision for throttle cable - this was neither mentioned in the seller's description nor visible in the ebay photos.

But don't hold your breath to see them fitted. I need to plot out the present wiring and fink about what I'll change or remove before I'll get around to fitting.

Looks like the throttle cable outer sleeve needs to be threaded into RH switch housing, would it require a different throttle cable?
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Raymond on December 03, 2021, 06:08:38 pm
Looks like the throttle cable outer sleeve needs to be threaded into RH switch housing, would it require a different throttle cable?

Not too sure. I might be able to source a threaded ferrule that will accept the end of the existing cable? Or it might do just sitting in the threaded opening?

Anyhoo, I might need to modify the nylon part of the throttle or the new switch housing - it doesn't appear to give enough rotation to open the slide fully now. And I'll probably need to modify the decompressor cable, or find a more suitable one, or order a one-off.

As soon as you step away from bog standard, you open a can of worms. But, there is always a solution. Guess I'm preaching to the converted, I expect all of you have met and dealt with the problems that ensue when you modify?
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Paul W on December 03, 2021, 06:55:29 pm
Raymond, I found that the 5 speed clutch cable wasn’t compatible with the Minda lever on my bike. The only adjuster is at the gearbox end and the lever had a plain hole. I found a cheese headed Allen screw that slid snugly into the lever. I then drilled through the length of it to accept the inner cable and drilled out the head to accept the ferrule on the sheath. I then put two blades side by side in my hacksaw, put the screw in the vice and slit it lengthways so the inner could go in. It’s been like that since with no trouble.

Or you can buy various cable adjusters on eBay…
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: richard211 on December 03, 2021, 07:10:52 pm
Not too sure. I might be able to source a threaded ferrule that will accept the end of the existing cable? Or it might do just sitting in the threaded opening?

Anyhoo, I might need to modify the nylon part of the throttle or the new switch housing - it doesn't appear to give enough rotation to open the slide fully now. And I'll probably need to modify the decompressor cable, or find a more suitable one, or order a one-off.

As soon as you step away from bog standard, you open a can of worms. But, there is always a solution. Guess I'm preaching to the converted, I expect all of you have met and dealt with the problems that ensue when you modify?

All this talk of wiring looms and switches is now making me want to make my own wiring loom and I have no reason to make one. To make matters worse I just ordered a pair of automotive terminal crimpers.
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Raymond on December 04, 2021, 01:53:07 pm
Paul, thank you for that idea, sounds promising for my decompressor lever. Gonna have a look at the cable, and see if there's people who make up one-off Bowden cables at a reasonable price. But it certainly seems there might be scope to, uhm, fashion sommat that will work. If I stick with the cable that's on the bike but find there's too much inner cable, I might find an adjuster to slip over one end to give the outer more length.

There is no hurry to get the bike ready.

Richard, I have built one-off wiring harnesses on two bikes and once you get into the job it's quite satisfying - in both cases, 1970 Triumph TR6 650 and Yamaha XS650, have ended up with a bike with reliable wiring which I understand plus a home-drawn diagram showing the simplified layout. You need good crimpers, good wire stripper - careful Googling that one - and a supply of bullets and coloured tracer wire.
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: richard211 on December 04, 2021, 06:40:42 pm
Raymond, before you try ordering a one off cable I came across an interesting video on YouTube might be worth trying. Thanks the advanced warning, but I had skimmed through your post and googled the keywords, lets just say some very interesting results turned up. ;D

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ysd8JkWclmc&ab_channel=DonnDIY
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Adrian II on December 04, 2021, 09:40:26 pm
If you're not convinced about modifying your existing decomp cable, you could just get one for a Redditch Bullet which WILL be designed to use with the old style handlebar decomp lever. Just a thunk. Part number 34262.

A.
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Raymond on December 05, 2021, 10:36:45 am
Richard, very interesting on the solder repair. I always enjoy clear & concise how to videos. Might be an idea I can try.

Adrian, good idea the old-style cable and thank you for the part number, seems to be stocked by Burton bike bits and a few others.
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Raymond on December 09, 2021, 04:47:26 pm
We're in Winter's icy grip, so not much getting out on salty roads. But try to head into the garage for at least part of every day. About half-an-hour at a time then head back to house for warming cuppa.

At the mo, trying to make sense of the new switches. There's no diagram with them and obviously the colours don't match anything. So today's plan was pull the switches apart, hack the connector blocks, separate the wires and attempt to see which ones are linked at each switch position. Hoping this will prove to be a valid approach . . .
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: AzCal Retred on December 09, 2021, 06:48:39 pm
Try a "Truth Table/Connection diagram", be methodical. Label & document!   :)
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Raymond on December 10, 2021, 02:36:40 pm
Thank you, AzCal, very good advice. Have been looking at the logic of the switches and might have run into a snag.


Attached photo shows connectivity for the Lights Off, Side lights, Headlamp switch, old and new. The lower diagram is the new switch. Now, I can cope with the colours being different, that's what I was researching. But I don't know how to cope with the different logic.

The old switch keeps the AC and DC circuits separate but I'm flummoxed how to do that with the new switch. Will it matter? I think it will. Suggestions?
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Adrian II on December 10, 2021, 06:22:58 pm
I may be unaware of some dazzling solution Azcal might have for the lighting problem (do you see what I did there?), but I suspect trying to run the AC headlamp feed and return through a switch designed for purely DC operation won't work.

If you really want to use your new switches, all DC lighting seems to be your only option, that will mean routing the alternator's entire output through the reg/rectifier as mentioned above or buying a two-wire Lucas RM21 stator.

Otherwise - this is a tentative suggestion, I don't know whether this would work - get a second Boyer Power Box to replace the AC regulator and run the former headlight feed, now rectified and regulated into the battery too. Provided you get the polarity right, it ought not to be placing more strain on a battery that the six coils of an RM21 alternator all feeding directly. Again, Azcal might be able to explain why this should not be attempted!

A further suggestion, particularly if you want to stay with AC headlights, is to keep just the left hand one of your new switches and use a double pole switch for the lights, eg:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/262829974028?epid=18015193086&hash=item3d31e3220c:g:ffUAAOSw42dZJbBx

Run the AC for the headlight down one side and the DC for the pilot/stop/speedo lights down the other. This would of course mean your lights were all on or all off, but at least your new L/H switch would be still be fine with the AC for the headlamp dip, regardless of the DC for the horn and indicators.

You have to consider EXACTLY what you want your electrics to do.

A.

 
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: richard211 on December 10, 2021, 07:01:49 pm
I may have a suggestion to help out with the AC/DC issue. It would be best to configure the RH switch operates on DC and the LH  headlight switch on AC. To retain the switches that you brought, what I would do is use a 4 pin relay.

Relay terminals wiring :
Terminal 85 is a DC ground (sourced from the motorcycle frame or any negative terminal)
Terminal 86 is DC power from the RH switch (powered when headlight switch is in the On position) ​
Terminal 30 is AC power from the alternator ( connect 1 wire from the alternator output intended for the headlight generally yellow color or yellow with red stripe if AC regulator is installed)

Terminal 87 is AC output from the relay goes into the inputs of the LOW & HIGH beam switch on the LH handlebar switch.

The second headlight AC output wire from the alternator (generally Amber color) is directly connected to the Negative terminal (ground) of the headlight terminal.

The output from the High beam handlebar switch is connected to the high beam terminal of the headlight light bulb.

The output from the Low beam handlebar switch is connected to the low beam terminal of the headlight light bulb.

This will help isolate the AC circuit from the DC circuit entirely.
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Adrian II on December 10, 2021, 08:28:51 pm
Ah yes, someone's got their thinking head on!  :)

This would probably need to join the other electrical gubbins under the seat, rather than in the already cramped confines of the headlamp casquette.

A.
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: AzCal Retred on December 10, 2021, 09:25:34 pm
Raymond - my 2 cents:

Your diagram shows brown/black tied together in both the Side & Head position, so there is only one flavor of power circuit available. Unless there is a connector between them on the switch body that can be removed, this needs to be an all AC switch.

The good news is that the Casquette incandescent lamps don't care if it's AC or DC feeding them, just like the headlamp. The Casquette lamps can feed from brown or black, or even from brown/white, but then they will shut off when Headlight is selected. The headlight Hi/Lo switch input can feed from blue/white. Connect (AC "L1") to brown or black and AC "N" to the amber(orange?) headlight common. IF you make the Casquette lamps AC, they'll need an "N" also.

The other good news is that if you use LED's in the instrument & tail/brake lamps, they can be on anytime the main switch is "ON", the current draw is minute. You don't really need to switch them at the handlebar.

This keeps things simple, use the switch you like for the regulated AC lighting loads. Get the H's LED instrument lamps & don't worry about the DC draw. Tail & brake lamps are DC anyway, the tail is on all the time the main switch is on. Use an LED tail/brake lamp & you are home free.

Another option is to forget about the extra headlight Hi/Lo switch, just run brown/white to LO, blue/white to HI, AC L1 to brown or black and call it good. Casquette lamps can be LED and run all the time on DC. If you want the Hi Beam indicator it'll need to parallel the High Beam connection, BUT the old speedo's didn't have any indication, just an illuminating lamp for nighttime use. Better I think, if simplicity is the goal. I've never worried too much if I didn't have a neutral lamp, flashing T/S indicator or Hi beam status, just look at & feel the machine. A "biggo 3-way switch" is pretty self explanatory, I always "feel" for neutral anyway, and the front "trafficator" lenses are usually visible.

Cheers - ACR -

" I may be unaware of some dazzling solution Azcal might have for the lighting problem (do you see what I did there?)" AdrianII, always brilliant... ;D ;D ;D

Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Raymond on December 11, 2021, 11:21:23 am
Gentlemen, thank you All for the careful thought you have given to the switch problem.

Probably the first idea I had was to go all DC. As Adrian says, this would mean routing full alternator output through the Boyer Power box. This might even have been done by PO - all four alt wires connect to the Power box, but there is still the AC regulator. And obviously I'm not familiar with the circuitry of the Power box, so I really don't fully know what's going on. With hindsight, should have checked where there was AC and DC before ripping the wiring apart. My excuse is I was unaware of this issue at the time - where fools rush in . . .

I've even had the same idea as Richard of putting a relay so the DC Lights On/Off switch could turn on the AC headlamp circuit. Only thing is, it seems like adding more wiring in when I'm trying to reduce what's there.

But right now I'm liking AzCal's suggestion of making the R/h h/bar switch all AC and run all the pilot lights from the AC. Probably a good suggestion to go LED at the same time. Being bear of small brain, don't fully understand your shorthand - does AC "L1" and AC "N" mean the two wires feeding from the AC alternator, Yellow and Orange on my bike?

I would be tempted to call those the live and earth wires from the AC regulator but if I'm understanding this at all, I'm guessing they swap those roles all the time at a frequency dependant on how fast the engine is chuffing away?

Will have a wee think about this suggestion and maybe offer up a wee diagram for comment . . .

Cheers, Raymond
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Paul W on December 11, 2021, 11:48:06 am
Raymond,

I’d have a close look at the MOT Testers manual about lighting before you commit yourself. I think an AC brake light might fall foul because it has to show a steady light.
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Raymond on December 11, 2021, 12:45:11 pm
I’d have a close look at the MOT Testers manual about lighting before you commit yourself. I think an AC brake light might fall foul because it has to show a steady light.

That's a very good point, Paul. Fortunately, I don't think the brake lights share any circuitry with the other lights. Ah, but the bulb. Can that have one filament AC one DC? And for an LED bulb? Hmmm.
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Paul W on December 11, 2021, 12:49:40 pm
I presumed you were considering removal of the battery…..  ;)
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Raymond on December 11, 2021, 01:48:19 pm
Paul, no, wasn't thinking of removing the battery. I'm all for an easy life - just now I'm wundering why I decided to embark on doing any wiring changes. Was hoping to ensure the electrics are reliable by going over everything and removing anything not needed. That was before I ran into the problem of AC-DC which complicates things in a way I've not had to deal with in the past.

Adrian has a very good point that 'You have to consider EXACTLY what you want your electrics to do.' Need to have a think, draw some sketches, take on board the ideas people have kindly suggested. It's time to take me time.

Need to understand AzCal's thinking. One of his ideas is to use the r/h switch for the headlamp only, run all other lights from the battery, ON when the ignition is ON. This sounds very easy and shouldn't give problems as long as the ignition isn't left switched ON for much time with the engine not running.

Ah well, at least once I've had a think then sorted it out, I should have a system I understand a bit better.




Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: AzCal Retred on December 11, 2021, 04:18:39 pm
Does AC "L1" and AC "N" mean the two wires feeding from the AC alternator, Yellow and Orange on my bike? I would be tempted to call those the live and earth wires from the AC regulator but if I'm understanding this at all, I'm guessing they swap those roles all the time at a frequency dependant on how fast the engine is chuffing away?

Morning Raymond. In Bullet AC lighting they didn't "earth" the Orange(Amber?) wire, but used it as the "earth (N, Neutral) leg. The "live (L1, Live 1) " is yellow.

Personally I would just let all the tiny LED lamps in the casquette run on DC all the time the main switch is on. LED's have 1/5th the current draw, the LED bulbs draw no significant power, and voltage fluctuations cease to be an issue. The Hi Beam indicator is the exception, as it needs to be incandescent as it is in parallel with the headlamp Hi Beam AC feed. All of my used AC lighting Bullets as acquired had zorched the hi-beam indicator lamp, apparently when the sealed beam filament fails, opens up & load goes away, the AC Reg allows more voltage past...? So...unless you must have it, I'd skip it. I plan on a new H's "Olde Tyme" speedo soon, it contains no indicating folderol at all, I'm not losing sleep over it.

Using the switch you have and like will give you a simple 3-position, AC driven, Off-Lo-Hi headlamp system. The switch position determines beam selection in a deliberate, early-days manner and provides visual feedback. There's no practical reason to get more complicated, just personal preference. Good enough for 'gummint work, eh?

Note - In the AC world, the Neutral/Earthed conductor is deliberately grounded in the hope that "earth" will serve to act as a return path if the normal wire becomes "open circuit", a back-up safety strategy for residential, commercial & industrial power distribution use. Fequency/polarity doesn't play into it, that's a separate issue. It's easiest to think of in the context of a single AC coil. Two wires come out, two wired run to the load, but only one is deliberately connected to ground/earth at the source/coil. There is a separate , usually smaller wire run for the actual "ground". This "bonds" earth grounding rods, motor frame, etc. together.

1) The Neutral wire is the GROUNDED conductor. It is the normal return current path.
2) The Ground wire is the GROUNDING conductor. It is the emergency return path.

Clear as mud, eh? But that's all power distribution stuff, not Bullet electrical.

 
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Raymond on December 11, 2021, 04:40:19 pm
AzCal, thank you for that - my ignorance of matters electrical must be obvious. But I like your idea of using the R/h three position switch to combine headlamp on and dip functions. Thinking out loud, that would free up the L/h dip switch for turning the DC lights on?

As you say, no real need for a Main warning - just glance at the switch. On some bikes, including my XS650, you can't really see the Main warning by day. In any case, rarely use the main beam as my day pass usually expires before it gets dark enough . . .

Your explanation of L and N in AC circuits slightly beyond what I need to know here, but thank you for clarifying that the yellow is Live and orange is Neutral.

If I use LEDs for the side lights, will there need to be a resistor in the circuit?
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Adrian II on December 11, 2021, 05:24:24 pm
STOP - HOLD EVERYTHING! :o

Quote
Probably the first idea I had was to go all DC. As Adrian says, this would mean routing full alternator output through the Boyer Power box. This might even have been done by PO - all four alt wires connect to the Power box, but there is still the AC regulator. And obviously I'm not familiar with the circuitry of the Power box, so I really don't fully know what's going on. With hindsight, should have checked where there was AC and DC before ripping the wiring apart. My excuse is I was unaware of this issue at the time - where fools rush in . . .

If all four alternator wires have been connected to the power box, the two purple wires AND the yellow and orange wires (some stators will use a red wire and a black wire instead of purple), then your bike ***IS*** wired for all DC. The AC regulator if still on the bike should not now be connected to anything as the yellow and orange wires which fed it have now been diverted to the Power Box. Have a look at Hitchcock's on-line parts book and click onto the part description to see a picture of the thing.

The Power Box is just a regulator/rectifier unit with an added capacitor for those who want to run the bike without a battery (kick-start mode only, obviously!) The two yellow wires are AC in from the alternator The red wire on the Boyer is DC+ and the black DC- to whatever earth/ground point your frame has. If I understand the Snidal conversion correctly, you should have one of the Boyer's yellow wires connected to one of the purple and and also to the yellow wire coming off the stator, with the other yellow wire from the Boyer joined to the other purple wire and the orange wire off the alternator.

This being the case, you're good to go with both of your new switches, no fancy work-arounds needed!

Just in case you have a an alternator stator with red and black wires instead of purple, DO NOT CONNECT THEM TO THE RED AND BLACK WIRES OF THE BOYER POWER BOX.

A.

Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: AzCal Retred on December 11, 2021, 05:37:08 pm
Put your meter on AC and see what actually ended up at the headlight. The AC reg/rec should have been disconnected or removed if they went all DC, but maybe not. If (your &) Adrian's observation is correct, then just run a (+) to your new headlight switches "common" and you can still use the Old Skool 3 position switch to generate Off-Lo-Hi, just with DC instead.

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

-If still AC-

I wouldn't switch the Casquette lamps at all, just run them continuously off the main DC power switched by the main key. They are a minute draw when all LED, the battery would carry them for hours alone. If you are out after dark, they are already on. Just use a convenient (+). Simple is good, no need to complicate things. In AD 2021, "decorative" lighting load isn't to be feared like it was in the 6V/incandescent only 1940's.

H's LED's are all 12VDC, no need to do more than plug them in.

The AC headlamp scheme is a good idea I think. It removes load (and heat) from the DC system Reg/Rec. Once the Tail/Brake lamp is LED, all the Bullet's 60-80W DC system does is keep up with about 15 watts of lighting and a tiny intermittent amount from the ignition coil. Lots of LED headlamps are AC compatible as they already contain reverse polarity prevention rectifier schemes, but THEY need to state that up front in their product description. I leave the night riding for young folks that heal fast!
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Raymond on December 11, 2021, 06:03:47 pm
Thank you again.

Self-inflicted doubts reign. Not sure how to check whether there is AC at the headlamp - as said earlier, pulled the wiring apart before I even knew this was even a thing. So I can't start and run the bike, unless I cobble everything back together. Would a non-running test, with the battery back in place, checking DC voltage to the headlamp wires tell me anything useful?

But if it turns out that PO has converted the bike to all DC, that will simplify fitting the switches.

In the harness, there are a few brass crimps, joining sets of wires into backbones along the frame. One of these is a yellow wire and it looks as if it connects to the alt, the AC regulator - which is still hooked up - and one of the purple cables headed towards the Power box. Before heading off forwards to the R/h h/bar. Likewise, I think the orange alt wire links to the other purple as well as the AC reg, before heading off towards the front end.

Tomorrow, I will check that these statements are true and offer up a diagram or a photo. Having a Boyer Power box and the AC reg has now left me in some doubt and I'm not sure what functions the Boyer is being employed to perform.

Right now, think I'll go and watch Qualifying for the final round of the F1 season. Either that or go into a darkened room, and scream, very quietly in case I disturb anybody.
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: AzCal Retred on December 11, 2021, 07:11:23 pm
Your Meter will tell you. Electricity is invisible, learn to trust your meter. The AC setting doesn't read DC voltage well, DC won't be happy on AC voltage. Use your battery as a test to gain familiarity with the tool. Running DC voltage with the good Boyer regulator will be about 13.5 VDC - 14.5 VDC, AC voltage is likely 14 VAC - 17 VAC yellow to orange(amber). Read these with the headlamp on, a "loaded" circuit reading is more meaningful.

If it is now an all-DC system, take the time & get rid of/remove the AC Regulator from the mess. Simple is good.
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Adrian II on December 11, 2021, 09:55:56 pm
That Boyer Power Box ought to be able to cope with anything a 4-wire Indian Bullet can chuck out, and that's WITH the entire output going through it. Don't forget they were designed with REAL Lucas alternators in mind rather than the slightly weaker Indian copies!

Ray, for heaven's sake just rip the whole wretched lot out and build your own wiring loom, make absolutely sure the alternator is putting all of its output through the Power box as per Pete Snidal's conversion (sounds like that HAS already been done), wire in your new switches, call it a victory and settle down with a not too wee dram of Scotland's finest to celebrate. Nice little winter project, this ain't rocket surgery. Or ship the bike down south and I'll wire it for you!

A.
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Raymond on December 12, 2021, 01:00:41 pm
In the harness, there are a few brass crimps, joining sets of wires into backbones along the frame. One of these is a yellow wire and it looks as if it connects to the alt, the AC regulator - which is still hooked up - and one of the purple cables headed towards the Power box. Before heading off forwards to the R/h h/bar. Likewise, I think the orange alt wire links to the other purple as well as the AC reg, before heading off towards the front end.

Tomorrow, I will check that these statements are true and offer up a diagram or a photo. Having a Boyer Power box and the AC reg has now left me in some doubt and I'm not sure what functions the Boyer is being employed to perform.

This morning went in the garage and did some more chasing wires. What I wrote yesterday was wrong. Sorry, Adrian! And please, it's Raymond.

Attached a photo of the area I've pulled apart a bit more, and traced the wires with special attention to the alternator and the Power box. Did a quick & rough sketch, also attached. Which seems to show clearly that the AC output from the alternator goes nowhere near the Boyer Power box. Just goes to AC Rectifier, Lights On/Off switch and the headlamp.

The Boyer box is only used as a Rec-Reg for the DC side of things.

For me to use the new switches I bought, seem to be two options. Convert the electrics to DC-only. OR use the Lights On/Off switch for the headlamp only. The sidelights, tail light, etcetera would come on with the ignition. Unless I utilise another switch for that function.

Adrian, you suggested 'rip the whole wretched lot out and build your own wiring loom, make absolutely sure the alternator is putting all of its output through the Power box as per Pete Snidal's conversion' and that might be a good idea. Just how much of a can of worms do I open converting to DC-only?

The easier option seems to be AzCal's suggestion of using the Lights On/Off switch on the R/h h/bar for the headlamp only. The side-lights, tail light, etc etcetera would come on with the ignition.
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Adrian II on December 12, 2021, 04:38:16 pm
My apologies, Raymond!

Meanwhile we finally know what you're having to deal with. The previous owner was simply using the Boyer Power Box as a replacement for the original reg/rectifier, possibly as a battery eliminator too. The AC headlamp wouldn't need a battery eliminator as it's already run straight off the alternator.

A.
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: AzCal Retred on December 12, 2021, 05:45:55 pm
Morning Raymond - good effort on the schematic.
That "H/LAMP Flasher Switch" & "Lights On/Off" attached to the AC L1 may need revisiting. The "Dip Switch" should do it all for you.
The battery, main fuse & (-) return leg wiring needs make an appearance also.
That PDF I posted can easily be modified with Microsoft Paint to suit your needs, just a thought.
Looks like you have a plan though - Good Hunting! - ACR -
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Raymond on December 13, 2021, 02:29:09 pm
The battery, main fuse & (-) return leg wiring needs make an appearance also.

Ha, yes, should have said partial wiring. I just wanted to clarify that area in my own mind.

Feel much more positive now that I've cleared up the AC-DC question. (Weren't they a heavy metal band?) Don't have a fixed plan just yet but there's a couple of ways I could go. The easiest is to use the 3-position Lights On/Of switch for the headlamp and possibly use the kill switch below it to put the other lights on & off. I checked with my MOT tester today, the rules don't require a bike to have a kill switch.

Or convert the bike to all DC. Found a thread where somebody did that and it seems mainly a matter of splicing the four alternator wires to the two rec-reg inputs. Yellow spliced to one purple and orange spliced to the other. But, and there's always a but, you need to choose the correct purple wire to link to depending on the phase relationship with the yellow and orange wires. The method used to work that out involved looking at voltages with the engine running which I'm not able to do just now. Would I sidestep that problem if I bought a different stator, say Lucas, or would I need to replace the rotor as well? So if I'm going to convert to all DC, I need to do more research on alternators.

Plus I wonder if there are further problems that will come out of the woodwork - that's why I see the first option above as easier.

Ah well, onwards and upwards.
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: AzCal Retred on December 13, 2021, 04:45:59 pm
Morning Raymond -

The Boyer power box is a nice piece, it regulates far better than the OEM units. With normal lighting loads the alternator you have should be fine. The AC headlight works well for incandescent & halogen bulbs, and some LED's are AC compatible as well. The normal loads are only a few indicator lamps(LED), tail lamp(LED), ignition circuit (intermittent pulse), and E-start (intermittent load).

Looking back at the switches you have, I saw them to be very modern. I was thinking you were going for more "retro". If you are keeping the electric start, the OEM Minda switch units are tough to beat. The decompressor cable mechanism is already there, and replacement cables are simple to order. Same on the throttle side, easy to get cables that fit. I replaced the poor Magura controls on my  red KS 1999 DeLuxe with the Minda kickstart units of my newer early 2000 Plain Jane trail bike. This let me retain the advantage of ready access to factory cables. The trail bike gets the minimalist treatment and has AC lights. Retaining the Minda switches also means easy "plug-'n-play" replacement in case of damage. For me, that means I can have one set of H's heavy duty "factory" cables that covers all my bikes, a real convenience.

For comparison, here's a few of the H's switch "primitivo" offerings:
https://accessories.hitchcocksmotorcycles.com/accessory-shop/Other-Electrical
HORN/DIP SWITCH; Part No: LU/31563 (About $20 USD)
HORN PUSH (or ENGINE STOP) SWITCH, 7/8'' ; Part No: LU/76204A (About $12 USD)
INDICATOR SWITCH (UNIVERSAL), CHROME ; Part No: 92032A
DIP SWITCH, LUCAS PATTERN (1940s/50s) ; Part No: LU/380521

I like the useful "HORN/DIP SWITCH; Part No: LU/31563". It has a grounding push button & On-Off-On toggle. With it you can operate turn signals & horn, or headlamp Hi-Off-Lo & Kill PB. The "HORN PUSH (or ENGINE STOP) SWITCH, 7/8'' ; Part No: LU/76204A" would make a nice E-start PB. But none of these are as water resistant as the OEM units.

The main issue with the Bullet wiring is as AdrianII says, inside the harness. Lots of marginal (by western standards) connections, poor routing, chafing issues, especially around the tank/steering stem area.

The way the Bullet circuit logic works is interesting. The main key switch has two contacts, an "a pallet(N/O)" Normally Open and a "b pallet(N/C)" Normally Closed. When OFF, the main grounds around the points("a") and isolates the battery ("b"). When ON the main removes the ground & connects the battery to the circuit. The OEM Kill Switch actually interrupts the circuit to the coil. You can prove this by watching the ammeter not deflect when kicking over with the kill switch active. The OEM red toggle is easy to accidentally engage too...don't ask... :o The kill switch is a handy feature if you find yourself laying under a running machine - better than waiting for it to run out of gas.

The point I'm getting to is that there are practical advantages to retaining the OEM switchgear and just cleaning up the harness. Everything is a tradeoff, you just need to figure out why & how you plan on using your machine. The beauty of the Bullet is that with plentiful parts, you can modify & restore as much as you want. I really like the E-start on my 350, but they are fragile, so be sparing. If you find you use it a lot, H's has a mod that beefs it up for about $700 USD. It's sure handy on a hot restart at an intersection. - ACR -
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Raymond on December 14, 2021, 01:37:50 pm
Thank you, AzCal, a lot there to think about.

Will consider the pros and cons, which is something I'm doing a lot of at the moment. Cheers, Raymond
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Raymond on December 15, 2021, 12:02:21 pm
Been attempting to do some thinking. Not easy for bear of small brain, particularly when many obvious things about alternators, rectifiers and so forth are unknowns for me. Or at least at the far-flung extremity of things I understand.

But after thinking about it, I have decided to convert the Bullet to all-DC. If I have understood the advice provided correctly, I should be able to fit Lucas RM21 12V single-phase stator, take the two output wires to the Boyer Power box and the bike will be all-DC. With an enhanced wattage as well. The headlamp as with everything else will be powered from the battery, via a 20A fuse and the ignition switch.

I didn't need to touch the bike's wiring which probably worked as intended. But deciding to fit aftermarket switches has led me down this route. And I should end up with a simpler wiring system, hopefully more robust but importantly which I will be familiar with and able to rectify (groan) if & when problems arise.

I hope somebody will point out the error of my ways if the RM21 is not suitable or if I need to replace the rotor as well?

Onwards and upwards!
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Adrian II on December 15, 2021, 08:53:20 pm
The RM21 is tried and tested kit! A replacement rotor will only be needed if your old one is mechanically damaged, e.g. loose magnets/end plates, or if the magnetism has faded. In think I mentioned the Lucas 4 wire upgrade stator which fits with the Indian rotor.

When fitting, don't forget a proper air gap between rotor and stator (10 thou, though I've got away with 6 thou on BSAs), I'm told the plastic from yoghurt pots makes a pretty good feeler gauge for checking.

A.
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Raymond on December 15, 2021, 10:01:50 pm
Thank you, Adrian, sounds like the RM21 is the way to go.

Friend of mine mentioned testing the rotor by hanging screwdrivers to check the magnetism is still all present and correct.

Called the seller today - they have 1/2 day on Wednesday, how quaint. But I'll ring tomorrow and probably ask for that old back-number decompressor cable #34262 as well.
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Raymond on December 16, 2021, 11:49:25 am
In for a penny, in for a pound. Pulled the chaincase off, took the stator off, checked the rotor's magnetic properties - see attached.

If it holds a fairly heavy Whitworth spanner, must be good?

Next is to call Burton Bike Bits and order new stator . . .
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Adrian II on December 16, 2021, 01:50:56 pm
If you've just placed your order, ignore this, but the other alternative to the Lucas alternator is the Sparx, I have this one (with a Sparx rotor) on my 500 big head Bullet. They are supposed to perform better, though I doubt if you'd notice in practice.

https://www.tricor-andy.com/product/12-volt-single-phase-stator-oe-no-47205/

The RM21 and Power Box should meet any kick start Bullet's needs happily enough. If that rotor is still up to the job (looks like it is), the Power Box's battery-less running function might come in useful.

A.
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Bilgemaster on December 16, 2021, 02:22:08 pm
In for a penny, in for a pound. Pulled the chaincase off, took the stator off, checked the rotor's magnetic properties - see attached.

If it holds a fairly heavy Whitworth spanner, must be good?

Next is to call Burton Bike Bits and order new stator . . .

I appreciate that it's holding a "Whitworth spanner" (In Amurkan: "Weird special order wrench"). I don't quite "ken" why a presumably fully-functional bike’s being wholly rewired, but am just chalking that up to "winter project". Recalling that our man lives in the Scottish Borders, a nice warm soldering iron and all those colorful colourful wires has gotta beat watching those sheep on the vast grey rolling moors growing drool icicles on their chins. So, carry on. It's your bike. Make it how you like it.
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Raymond on December 16, 2021, 02:31:48 pm
. . . I don't quite understand why a presumably fully-functional bike’s being wholly rewired . . .

You and me both, Bilgemaster!

It just sort of happened after I innocently decided to change the handlebar switches to sommat as looks a bit more in keeping with the style of the bike.

Still, at least I will have gained, uhm, some familiarity with the bike's electrics. Plus the bike will have a higher output alternator, presumably a good thing? Plus the bike will have shiny new alloy h/bar switches and a nice chrome decomp lever.
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Bilgemaster on December 16, 2021, 02:41:49 pm
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_p4Zf1jnAB0c/TUmy19TQaEI/AAAAAAAAGyM/I9dTXyNukSU/s1600/sheep%2Bw%253A%2Bicicle%2Bon%2Bear.jpg)
Come back, Raymond. We miss you.
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Paul W on December 16, 2021, 07:01:09 pm
You tried a Whitworth spanner? But your bike is metric…..  ;)
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Raymond on December 16, 2021, 07:47:17 pm
You tried a Whitworth spanner? But your bike is metric…..  ;)

But it was heavy - perhaps you haven't understood the gravity of the situation…..  ;)
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Adrian II on December 16, 2021, 08:01:58 pm
You tried a Whitworth spanner? But your bike is metric…..  ;)

PART metric. Even the Electra-X has some cycle thread on it.

A.
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Mr_84 on December 17, 2021, 04:08:03 am
But it was heavy - perhaps you haven't understood the gravity of the situation…..  ;)

Haha very witty there Raymond , good luck with your build your getting deep into it now most likely you'll be a wiring expert by the end , we will all be asking you the "how to " questions soon
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Raymond on December 17, 2021, 10:23:53 am
Thank you, Mr 84.
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Raymond on December 18, 2021, 11:14:35 am
Made what I'm sure will be a worthwhile investment. Already have a 'factory' manual and a downloaded copy of this. But it's always nice to have a hard copy.

Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Raymond on December 18, 2021, 01:18:40 pm
Took the decompressor off - I wanted to fit the new cable, but my nipple was the wrong shape. Maybe that's not quite what I meant . . . ?

The decompressor requires a small round nipple but the cable has a slightly-too-large cylindric one. Bit of filing the brass has cured that.

But the washers seem to have been on a weekend furlough in Saigon. Smaller copper sealing washer gone AWOL, larger copper washer been in a barroom brawl - see attached.

Never see a washer distorted like that - I fink somebody has got it squint then tightened down anyway?
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Raymond on December 18, 2021, 02:45:05 pm
Ho reliable is the PM function on this forum? Couple of days ago, received PM with some helpful suggestions about the electrics, so naturally, I replied to say Thank You. Today, have received a mailbox error message - from Germany - telling me my mail could not be delivered and this is a permanent error. Can only think it relates to my PM.
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: AzCal Retred on December 18, 2021, 05:02:38 pm
@ #137: Looks the same as all the ones I ever took out. Maybe the hardware store would have something that provides a better fit? I tried reusing an aluminum spark plug gasket, lots of sanding to make it fit. Needs to be metal I think, 500 degrees or so temps are likely normal.
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: richard211 on December 18, 2021, 06:20:39 pm
The benefit of converting the AC/DC system to a full DC system is being able to run a 25 watt LED head bulb rated at 3500 lumens on the high beam.
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Bilgemaster on December 19, 2021, 12:18:33 pm
Ho reliable is the PM function on this forum? Couple of days ago, received PM with some helpful suggestions about the electrics, so naturally, I replied to say Thank You. Today, have received a mailbox error message - from Germany - telling me my mail could not be delivered and this is a permanent error. Can only think it relates to my PM.

I've never had issues with the PM function of the Forum, though some flavors of Android may not display the messaging icon in portrait orientation (vs. landscape) or unless you choose "Desktop Mode" from the options in earlier flavors of that operating system like 7 or before. Are you sure you chose the PM option through the Forum and not the direct email relay one? Because some folks may sign up for such forums, etc. using a "disposable" email, or it may have since lapsed if they've moved on to another provider. I'd suggest you just try again, maybe with both PM and email relay by cut-n-pasting.
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Raymond on December 19, 2021, 01:26:24 pm
Uhm, too technical, don't quite understand but I think the email showed up in my mail browser and that might be where I drafted and sent the reply.

I get all too easily confused by different interfaces on different sites & forums. Get into a habit of how to post or add attachments or reply to PMs in one place but find it's different someplace else.

Bit like the chaos that would ensue on the roads if you let the software industry build cars. Forced to install a mandatory update and afterwards find the pedal positions for accelerator, brake and clutch have been swapped around . . .

What's that? They are going to let the software industry build cars? Driverless cars - you no longer have control of the accelerator, brake and clutch? Gawd help us all.
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Adrian II on December 19, 2021, 07:53:58 pm
Self-driving vehicles, aagh! It does not bode well.

They should not have sent you a mangled copper washer, complain to the supplier, or instead order some plain copper crush washers of the appropriate diameter off ebay. As the deomp valve vents into the exhaust system you want to avoid air leaks to stop it popping and banging on overrun.

I think I already mentioned the different shaped cable nipple and the possible need to file it to fit if it's barrel-shaped. Fortunately tungsten carbide never caught on for this application...

The PM system on this forum is pretty good.

For LED replacements for H4 Q/H bulbs in the UK, try here:

https://www.classiccarleds.co.uk/collections/headlight-led-bulbs/products/latest-3000k-warm-white-led-headlight-h4-motorcycle-hi-lo-beam-conversion-9-32v

As we're up to page 10, I can't remember if I've mentioned this one ore not, but a word of caution: be aware that there's not a lot of room in the headlamp casquette with the speedometer stuffed into the back of it, SO MAKE SURE there is clearance between the back of the LED unit and the speedometer. A later, wider inner headlamp rim off an EFI Bullet will give you a bit more space if it's needed. More recent LED replacements are a lot less bulky than they were a few years ago, so it might no longer be an issue.

A.
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Karl Childers on December 19, 2021, 10:00:01 pm
The copper washer on my de-compressor  was hardly even scored when I removed it, the bad thing about that was the whole unit was barely beyond hand tight, the last person to work on it never torqued it down.  :o
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Raymond on December 20, 2021, 09:58:18 am
They should not have sent you a mangled copper washer, complain to the supplier, or instead order some plain copper crush washers of the appropriate diameter off ebay. As the decomp valve vents into the exhaust system you want to avoid air leaks to stop it popping and banging on overrun.

Uhm, in case it wasn't clear, the picture is the washers that came out with the decomp unit - one was mangled, one was missing. Still waiting for the replacements.

Also waiting for Lucas RM21 alternator to arrive so thinking about how I will modify the electrics. Not too sure how to get in at the speedo and pilot lights and change the bulbs to LEDs. If I cannot get easy access, will leave them as is.
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Adrian II on December 20, 2021, 03:32:33 pm
If you remove the headlamp unit (just that one screw on the top of the inner rim, leave the inner rim itself in place), the reflector unit and outer rim can be removed, giving you access to the speedo casing. IIRC the bulb holders in the speedometer shell are all push-fit.

A.
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Raymond on December 20, 2021, 04:52:16 pm
This is what mine looks like. Can see the speedo light, I think it's the black bulb holder on underside of the speedo, but it don't pull out, well not with my efforts, and I can't see how to take the speedo out. And access to the pilot lights and ammeter looks even more awkward. By default, will leave these alone . . .

Meanwhile, instead of pulling wires around and recording what is there, today I began to sketch a new scheme, based on my Yamaha XS650 - Miss November's - wiring scheme. Picture attached. The main change to the Bullet's present system is the 2-output alternator and elimination of the AC headlamp circuit. But I'm not at all clear on the ignition circuit - it looks as if the coil has a red/white power feed and a red/black wire from the ignition switch, which does not look as if it passes through the kill switch. And with just a brown/black wire from the Kill switch to the points, I can't see how that will fire the coil. Maybe there's an understanding gap as well as a points gap?

Of course, I might have not read the wiring that's there correctly.
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Adrian II on December 20, 2021, 05:32:37 pm
OK, the main speedo light on that one might be a bayonet fitting if it's not push fit. If you undo the speedo cable end you will find further up the M18 x 1.5 thread there is a slim nut holding a metal clip in place, that's what holds the speedometer in the casquette.

Ref the kill switch, what sort is the one in your new right-hand switch cluster? Does it work by 1. earthing the current to the ignition through the handlebars (one wire), OR, 2. by by interrupting it as an additional switch between the main ignition switch and the coil, (2 wires)?

A.
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Raymond on December 20, 2021, 06:38:28 pm
Ref the kill switch, what sort is the one in your new right-hand switch cluster? Does it work by 1. earthing the current to the ignition through the handlebars (one wire), OR, 2. by by interrupting it as an additional switch between the main ignition switch and the coil, (2 wires)?

Jeepers, that's a very good question, Adrian! Been so busy until recently thinking about how to accommodate an AC headlamp, I had been thinking at one time to use the 'kill switch' on the r/h cluster as DC pilot lights on/off, leaving the three-position lights switch for the AC headlamp. So in that phase of my thinking, there would have been no kill function.

But now I've got a replacement 2-wire alternator on order and running all-DC, the kill switch becomes available again. And I haven't thought about it very hard. I think its a 2-wire switch - need to go and have a look tomorrow.

But I think you've spotted one area that partly accounts for my confusion.
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Paul W on December 20, 2021, 07:02:58 pm
I’m sure the plastic bulb holder will come off a type of metal ‘spout’ complete with its bulb if you wiggle it to and fro whilst pulling it down. The bulb sits inside it.
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: AzCal Retred on December 20, 2021, 07:51:36 pm
Look at that diagram I posted earlier. The points are "earthed" when the main switch is off. That's your mystery wire.
The OEM Kill Switch cuts power to the points, the main switch grounds tham so the machine doesn't continue to run when you switch off, carried electrically by the alternator output.
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Adrian II on December 20, 2021, 10:55:16 pm
Quote
The OEM Kill Switch cuts power to the points, the main switch grounds tham so the machine doesn't continue to run when you switch off, carried electrically by the alternator output.

Really?

The main ignition switch is simply that, the on/off for the power supply to the ignition, it sits between the ammeter and the coil, no earth/ground function at all on ANY of the Royal Enfields, BSAs and Triumph twins I have ever owned or worked on. If the ignition switch is off, then that's it - no more power to the coil, no more sparks regardless of what's still coming out of the alternator. There is no back-door power supply to the coil, or there shouldn't be, just the wire into (in this case) the positive terminal, controlled by the ignition switch and possibly the 2nd version of the kill switch as I posted above.

Even the CDI 350 home market AVL Bullets, which have a CDI charging coil instead of one of the normal stator coils, are wired so that off is off. The kill switch is just a more convenient control in for bringing the motor to stop quickly than the main ignition switch

To repeat, depending on their design some kill switches will earth/ground the power to coil, others - the later kick start Indian Bullets for example, serve as a second switch in series with the main ignition switch.  I have used one of the latter as an earth/ground type with the second wire going to the frame, but then it operates backwards compared to its labelling!

Once Raymond knows exactly how his new r/h handlebar switch handles its kill function he can wire it accordingly.

A.
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: mrunderhill1975a on December 21, 2021, 12:04:38 am
I agree with AzCal, "The OEM Kill Switch cuts power to the points, the main switch grounds them so the machine doesn't continue to run when you switch off, carried electrically by the alternator output." At least that is the way it is wired on my bike (USA) specs.  Yours may be different.

See the diagram below, note the ignition switch is in the off position, follow the red lead on the ignition switch which connects directly to the coil and then to ground/earth across the ignition switch.  This means that even if the engine is turning and alternator providing power to the positive side of the coil, it is immediately grounded/earthed so there would be no change in coil electric field, and thus no spark.  As I noted, other wire configurations my be different that my bike or AzCal's bike.
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: AzCal Retred on December 21, 2021, 12:30:32 am
@ #153: Thanks for the back up!  :)

Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Mr_84 on December 21, 2021, 04:05:38 am
I recently removed the throttle housing assembly and swapped it for a quick pull style one that did not have the kill switch in it . My thoughts were that I would just unplug the switch and that would be it , I had to wire a loop in to close the circuit to get it to run , I didn't investigate what system it was but it was opposite to what I was expecting. Normally unplugging the kill switch eliminates it as a fault but the bike will run , always fun tinkering
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Adrian II on December 21, 2021, 11:51:18 am
@ #153: Thanks for the back up!  :)

Don't worry, I am a troublemaker and should be booted off this forum!  ;D

Seriously though, I'm just trying to keep things simple, which is how it ought to be with Bullet electrics. It's not rocket surgery.

A.
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Adrian II on December 21, 2021, 12:06:00 pm
I recently removed the throttle housing assembly and swapped it for a quick pull style one that did not have the kill switch in it . My thoughts were that I would just unplug the switch and that would be it , I had to wire a loop in to close the circuit to get it to run , I didn't investigate what system it was but it was opposite to what I was expecting. Normally unplugging the kill switch eliminates it as a fault but the bike will run , always fun tinkering

QED.

A.
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: AzCal Retred on December 21, 2021, 01:54:46 pm
I ran across this the hard way whilst rewiring. I just assumed that the two contacts in the key switch of my US model 1999's would both be "a" type, both normally closed when the switch was ON, one disconnecting the battery, the other breaking the power supply to the coil when OFF. After a "perfect" wiring job I found I had no spark. Eventually I Ohmed out the switch and became better informed, finding an "a" & and "b" instead. That didn't jive at all with my original "a & a" assumption. Going back to the wiring diagram again, looking more critically, I could finally see what they'd done. In the words of my old pal Tim; "I'll see that when I believe it". Someone at RE made the call to spec the switches with a "point grounding when off" scheme in mind. Why the Kill Switch didn't just parallel into that scheme I can't say.
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Adrian II on December 21, 2021, 03:16:57 pm
Well, there have been differences in US and UK spec wiring schemes going back to the 1960s, when BSAs and Triumphs, Nortons etc had to have their light switches fed via the ignition switch (sorry if I have already mentioned this, we're onto page 11 already, and my attention span is waning), the relevant BSA manuals I have show alternative wiring for both specs. So it is entirely possible that someone at your DoT intervened, similar to the more recent requirement for the lights to have to come on when you turn the ignition on. As a rule, I'm all for an abundance of ground/earthing points and additional earth wires (whoever thought a set of greased steering head bearings should be made to conduct electricity?), but not if it strains the imagination too hard.

The rest of the world has its own craziness, but here in this septic sceptred isle we haven't had that one, as far as I know. For an obsolete neo-vintage motorcycle that has actually made it as far as 12V electrics, a simple on/off key switch between the ammeter and the coil (plus whatever kind of kill switch is preferred) works just fine. That might be anathema to California legislators if not your federal ones, but I think there's another thread running about those people.

A.
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: mrunderhill1975a on December 21, 2021, 07:32:06 pm
"Well, there have been differences in US and UK spec wiring schemes going back to the 1960s, when BSAs and Triumphs, Nortons etc had to have their light switches fed via the ignition switch "

Adrian, you hit that nail on the head, there are differences in the US and UK specs.  My favorite is the left foot shifter contraption that some bureaucrat in the US Dept of Transportation required to be installed on the Brit bikes.  That thing has no less than five pivot points, all of which wobble and make it near impossible to find a gear.  What would the world do without bureaucrats?
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Raymond on December 22, 2021, 10:49:34 am
Not at all sure how the ignition circuit should be wired. On the attached sketch, scheme "A" shows how the Kill switch, points and coil are wired at present. Unless I have got it wrong.

Scheme "B" shows how I can wire the ignition circuit, based on suggestion kindly made by Adrian.
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Adrian II on December 22, 2021, 11:41:41 am
"B" is the one you want.  :)

Think of the wire as a pipe, with the ignition switch as the main stopcock and the kill switch as an emergency shut-off valve.

A.
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Raymond on December 22, 2021, 12:12:28 pm
"B" is the one you want.  :)

Think of the wire as a pipe, with the ignition switch as the main stopcock and the kill switch as an emergency shut-off valve.

A.

Love the analogy. Does that make 'earth' a big cesspit under the bike?

Thank you for your help, I'll refine my drawing here in the warm then approach the actual re-wiring probably after Christmas. Cheers, Raymond
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Adrian II on December 22, 2021, 12:17:54 pm
The view of some folks is that old Bullets belong IN a cesspit. Prove 'em wrong.

A.
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: AzCal Retred on December 22, 2021, 03:29:16 pm
In your drawings, the charging input is shown as being wired in two ways in different places. One shows the battery going directly to the ammeter, the charging circuit taps in after, then to the key switch. The other more recent is unclear where the charging circuit taps in, possibly after the key switch in "other"?

The schematic by Mr. Underhill1975 shows the battery fused lead as going to the main switch "a" contact, everything else after. Is it still this way or have you moved it? One reason for cleanly isolating the battery from the charging circuit components is to avoid the possibility of low rate "back leakage" through the charging circuitry, slowly draining the battery. If in practice this isn't a problem for you, it's all good. An open hard contact is a "clean" break, a diode bridge less so.

If the charging circuit (Boyer) is still on the "other" circuits side of the ignition switch, it may just keep the ignition fully functional and "hot" as long as the crank is spinning. The "in-series" kill switch or the decompressor would then be needed to bring infernal combustion to a halt.

In OFF, the original key switch "b" contact merely paralleled into the wire leading to the points, causing a permanent ground, mimicking the points not opening, preventing a spark. The key "a" switch broke the battery connection. As soon as the engine spins to a halt the alternator charging is out of the picture.

If the charging & battery are both upstream of the key switch, OFF removes all power, no more spark, engine has to stop. If the discharge back thru the Boyer is so low that the battery can set for a month or two, that would be "good enough" in my book.

What does your main switch actually look like schematically? Is it a 4-wire, "a" & "b" set-up? It looks like you plan to use only one contact, the "a" contact?
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Adrian II on December 22, 2021, 06:14:31 pm
Quote
One reason for cleanly isolating the battery from the charging circuit components is to avoid the possibility of low rate "back leakage" through the charging circuitry, slowly draining the battery. If in practice this isn't a problem for you, it's all good. An open hard contact is a "clean" break, a diode bridge less so.

My big head Bullet has a separate isolating switch between the battery fuse and the rest of the charging circuit, I have have leaky reg/rectifiers before!  Might be a good idea for this job. As you have the power box, will you still want to keep the battery, Raymond?

Quote
If the charging & battery are both upstream of the key switch, OFF removes all power, no more spark, engine has to stop.

Yep! With the kill switch in series, it's more of the same. :)

A.
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Raymond on December 22, 2021, 06:20:53 pm
Gentlemen, Thank You All for your help.

But I am clearly in over my head here - not ducking answering the question, more a case of I don't understand the question.

I will need to reconsider how to approach re-wiring this bike.
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Adrian II on December 22, 2021, 06:34:27 pm
Think of doing it in stages. Charging system first, then ignition, then lights, then horn and indicators 

Don't worry, I will draw up a diagram for you over Christmas. I did one for an older Bullet a while back, it's just about getting current to stuff and putting in earth wires where beneficial. Some of the diagrams do look hideously over-complicated, especially, as noted previously, once they have to start messing with a perfectly good system at the whim of a few bureaucrats. Losing the E/S helps.

A.
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: AzCal Retred on December 22, 2021, 07:52:58 pm
Raymond - here's that home made diagram - I'd posted it in the "High Beam Flashing", not here, sorry. It shows the circuit schematic in "Elementary" form, power flow top to bottom ((+) to (-)). Use it to see what I was referring to on the main switch. It modifies easily with Microsoft Paint.
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: AzCal Retred on January 04, 2022, 09:35:39 am
Raymond - here's your drawing modified.

The "A" drawing has the lighting switch polished up, shows where the Boyer needs to be in the circuit and shows where the "a" & "b" contacts of the main switch fit in. All my main switches have two circuits, 4 wires. When the switch is OFF, the "a" is OPEN, the "b" is closed. When ON, the "a" closes, the "b" opens. IF your main switch is the same, this is how they were used in the circuit. Turning the Main Switch key OFF isolates the battery from the circuit safely behind a dry contact ("a") and grounds the coil blocking a spark ("b"), shutting off the engine despite the Boyer reg/rec continuing to supply power while the crank is spinning.

The "B" drawing leaves the Boyer tied in permanently to the battery as you had. Opening up the main switch kills everything. The now useless ammeter is replaced with a voltmeter, they are available from the auto or marine store and slip right in. I did this on one of my machines, with the OEM Reg/Rec it reads 16V, the Boyer actually regulates well. Again, if "back-leakage" thru the Boyer is very low, which it should be, it likely makes no practical difference. You'll know if the battery goes flat in a week or so of sitting.

The picture of your lighting switch "ring-out" shows the brown wire connected to black when in the "side-light" position. In "headlamp" position brown-black-blue/white are all tied together. If this is real, the mods I made to your drawing should be OK.
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Raymond on January 04, 2022, 10:10:38 am
AzCal, thank you for these modified drawings. I shall print them off - or if I can't then copy the changes - and have a think. That's a slow process for me as I strive to understand things. You have made the changes very neatly. The comments you made about the ignition switch contact "b" at the points might just help explain the several black/brown and red/black wires in the ignition circuit. Cheers, Raymond
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Raymond on January 05, 2022, 03:37:44 pm
Have started the re-wire - see attached.

It might look like I soldered everything together but that's just the angle. There'a a piece of heat shrink on each join to keep them all separate. Feels odd to cut all the wires off two perfectly good switch blocks and then join different colours together. But if I have done my calculations correctly . . .
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: AzCal Retred on January 05, 2022, 06:09:28 pm
Hi Raymond - it's allowed to use wire nuts & electrical tape connections to confirm circuit function before doing a nice solder & shrink tube wiring install. Prove what you know as you go along, it's easy to get colors mixed up. A paper masking tape temp label is sometimes handy to keep yourself on track. Don't forget to jot down any "on the fly" changes you make on your drawing. Good hunting - ACR -
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Karl Childers on January 05, 2022, 06:34:51 pm
Raymond, It's nice to see actual splices and soldered joints! It's getting to be a lost art in this age of crimp connectors. I learned the technique 46 years ago and still enjoy making long lasting wiring harnesses for both motorcycles and trucks that way. I can't tell you how many electrical problems I have tracked down over the years in vehicles only to find it to be  an oxidized or loose crimp connector.
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Raymond on January 06, 2022, 09:56:14 am
Thank you All for for your encouragement!

AzCal, very helpful suggestion to make temporary joins and 'prove' the circuit as I go and that's what I'll be doing but it seemed like a good idea to get the two handlebar switches soldered up and put those in place or it would all get a bit out of hand. The degrees of freedom when you re-use a 9-way connector block with 8 actual wires to hook up to five switch connections with different colours - probably exceeds the number of gambits possible in a standard game of chess. So I spent yesterday drawing little truth tables and coloured charts and made a start. Here's the r/h switch now:

(https://i.postimg.cc/pXMNcpdn/PICT2791.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

Today, same process for the l/h switch. I'll keep the coloured charts with the wiring diagram in case I have to go back in there . . .

Have adopted your suggestions of putting only one feed to the 3-way lights On/Off switch and I'll be putting the Power box feed downstream of the ignition switch and ammeter.

Karl, thank you but I'm reluctantly soldering it all because that seemed better & neater than putting lots of crimped bullet connectors, which is how I re-wired a Triumph TR6 and my XS650.
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Raymond on January 11, 2022, 04:24:48 pm
Past few days, hooking the wiring up, pretty much as per AzCal's suggestion at #170, drawing A. Today, lobbed the battery back in and switched the bike on and to my surprise and delight the switches seem to operate. Here's the office with the new alloy switch blocks:

(https://i.postimg.cc/KvMBqMNC/PICT2795.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)screenshot on pc (https://postimages.org/app)


Unfortunately, throttle tube not compatible with new r/h switch block - nylon part that holds the cable won't fit inside lower half of switch unit. And with that nylon part wholly in upper half of the switch, cable is pulled so far the carb slide is almost up. After thinking about this for at least two or three minutes, I wielded a craft knife and cut most of the nylon part away, so the throttle is held less far open. Putting the cable back together, it looks as if the slide is about as far down as it should be.

So pulled the bike outside and kicked the engine over. It started very readily but tick-over is a bit too high which suggests I need to hack a little bit more away with the craft knife.

(https://i.postimg.cc/x8yRZNGv/PICT2793.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

But this is only the second time I've heard the bike run since the day it arrived, 16th November. I take it that the little lever marked choke is off when up? Pushing the lever down lifts a plunger on the carb body, which I believe to be a mixture enrichener?

If so it's quite gratifying that the engine started so easily without choke on a fairly cold day, maybe 4°C, with just a touch of throttle and an easy kick.

Still a lot more to do. The new wiring needs tidying up, especially the area just behind the headlamp casquette. The engine keeps running when the ignition key is turned off - everything else seems to be off, but the engine runs on. Stopped it easily enough with the decompressor but obviously there is a logical error in the wiring.

Nonetheless, today has been a good day for my Bullet. Onwards and upwards.
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Adrian II on January 11, 2022, 09:26:08 pm
Hi Raymond.

Quote
I take it that the little lever marked choke is off when up? Pushing the lever down lifts a plunger on the carb body, which I believe to be a mixture enrichener?

Correct! You can get cable conversion kits to operate these with an old-fashioned Amal style handlebar choke lever, except that it operates backwards compared to an Amal choke.

Quote
The engine keeps running when the ignition key is turned off - everything else seems to be off, but the engine runs on. Stopped it easily enough with the decompressor but obviously there is a logical error in the wiring.

:-X

Nearly there, though!

A.

By the way, I have an unused set of proper Indian Bullet rear mudguard stays, a bit more stylish than what the P.O. fitted if you're interested.
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Raymond on January 17, 2022, 04:23:34 pm
The re-wire is finished. This is the amended scheme I went with:

(https://i.postimg.cc/SxCZDQck/PICT2799.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)


and, say it quietly, at the moment everything electrical works as expected. Even the turn signals, which are a bit flaky - the connectors sometimes work loose if disturbed, just from putting the headlamp back on. Might need to re-wire them if it proves to be a problem.

But the new alternator seems to be fine, likewise the headlamp now running D/C and the new handlebar switches.

Even pulled the bike outside and rode down the back lane:

(https://i.postimg.cc/63nnNT5p/PICT2801.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)


Will need to tax the bike before we venture out on the roads.
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Adrian II on January 17, 2022, 04:30:34 pm
Et voilà!

Well done.

Get your paperwork sorted and enjoy the ride, once the weather perks up a bit.  :)

A.
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Warwick on January 17, 2022, 07:53:25 pm
Nice looking bike!!!  :)
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Raymond on January 22, 2022, 04:30:47 pm
Thank you Warwick!

Today, took the opportunity to venture out. Not taxed yet, so just local lanes.

Speedo not working - arrived home and spotted the speedo cable had fallen out. Except, it wasn't just the cable that had popped out - the brass union and the plastic worm were hanging on the end of the cable. Luckily.

Bit of head scratching - seems that brass union is just a push fit in the hub gearbox? With all back together, had to go out for a further short trip, just to check the speedo was now working, you understand.

Anybody else had that particular failure?
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Raymond on January 27, 2022, 10:19:15 am
Just another newbie question. Doh!

Been reading Pete Snidal manual and keep coming across references to the quill bolt. Not a term I'm familiar with. Mr Snidal includes a few exploded diagrams of the engine, the timing cover, the oil pump. All the parts are numbered but there's no key listing the parts by name. Also looking around on this forum, many references to leaving the quill bolt loose a half-turn to verify oil flow after an oil change - some people say do, some say don't.

But where is the quill bolt? Is it the large worm bolt sitting perpendicular to the oil pump spindle half-way along? Hitchcocks call this the oil feed plug?

Might all start to become clear when I dismantle the oil pump.
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Paul W on January 27, 2022, 12:03:02 pm
The quill bolt, as you suspect, is the large hexagon headed "bolt" in the centre of the lower part of the timing cover.

It receives the oil output from the pressure pump via a side drilling and directs it via the quill tube, into the hollow crankshaft and into the big end bearing. If you unscrew the bolt you will see a small hole in the threaded aperture of the timing case. This matches a drilling in the bolt and oil then enters the "quill" tube. The advice to leave it slightly loose to check initial oil flow from the pressure pump after an oil change is a good idea but tbh there isn't much to go wrong with the oil pump anyway; if it hasn't been disturbed and it worked before it should work perfectly. It can take a while for the oil filter chamber to fill after an oil change but Hitchcock's sell an aluminium insert to reduce the "wasted" volume of the filter chamber (part#40684) and a magnet (part#42505) to trap any ferrous debris travelling round the system; I have fitted both and they work as advertised. After I first fitted the magnet it collected a few small chunks (no idea what they were!) but after the 17,000 miles I've ridden on it all it collects now is a small amount of very fine wear particles.
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Raymond on January 27, 2022, 01:51:35 pm
Thank you, Paul.

Haven't got around to looking at the oil pump yet but likely to do an oil change before bringing the bike into regular use. R
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: mrunderhill1975a on January 28, 2022, 12:32:29 am
"But where is the quill bolt? Is it the large worm bolt sitting perpendicular to the oil pump spindle half-way along? Hitchcocks call this the oil feed plug?"

See the attached photo which shows the arrow pointing to the quill bolt / oil feed plug.  I have used the loosened quill bolt method to determine if the oil pump is working, but you can also verify the pump is working by opening the tappet cover and observing oil dripping from the head into the timing case.  I would only check the quill bolt if I had the pump apart or timing cover off.  Otherwise, I would use the tappet cover method. Opening and closing the quill bolt risks a mistake of over torqueing and stripping the thread on the bolt, I have stripped a few threads in aluminum and it is a really sinking feeling.
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Raymond on January 28, 2022, 10:29:06 am
Thank you, Mr Underhill!
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Adrian II on January 28, 2022, 10:54:15 am
No harm in undoing the thing to have a look, just use common sense and feel with a normal spanner when putting it back in.

I suspect the pumps on this bike will be fine. The weak point seems to be the gear teeth on the oil pump spindle which can wear and in extreme cases wear out completely causing less of oil pump function. Unlikely on a low mileage bike. As long as the spindlle isn't worn, and it can drive the pumps freely, all is good. If you're getting a persistent oil leak at the rocker feeds, it could mean a blockage needing a good clean-out, I've come across that before.

A.
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: matjas on January 28, 2022, 11:27:14 am
Hi Guys

Please accept a friendly wave from Poland!
Just acquired a 2007 Bullet500 and even thought I have had dozens of other bikes and I am a quite handy man I sure can see those questions coming :D

Best regards and hope for early spring!
m
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Raymond on January 29, 2022, 11:59:45 am
Hi, Matjas, you have a lovely bike there, and in the best colours too. Regards, Raymond
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Raymond on February 01, 2022, 02:09:45 pm
Last test run, found gear change was not good. Also, hard to find neutral. Decided to take A Look at the clutch:

(https://i.postimg.cc/rFm3Y6tr/PICT2807.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/0rTVbBnk)


(https://i.postimg.cc/xdSsQBqg/PICT2808.jpg)


Will clean, inspect, re-assemble, adjust. (https://postimages.org/)
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Adrian II on February 01, 2022, 02:38:43 pm
A five-speed gearbox is a good upgrade! The (perfidious?) Albion four-speed box is a little agricultural in comparison, from my limited experience of them, but a well-adjusted clutch is essential whichever box you're using.

A.
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: richard211 on February 01, 2022, 04:45:33 pm
 Be cautious when reassembling the clutch, looking at the photos the bearing washer that's supposed to be placed at the tip of the clutch rod seems to be missing. Just go through the clutch parts and make sure it there, it could be stuck on the front clutch plate.
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Raymond on February 01, 2022, 06:35:31 pm
Be cautious when reassembling the clutch, looking at the photos the bearing washer that's supposed to be placed at the tip of the clutch rod seems to be missing. Just go through the clutch parts and make sure it there, it could be stuck on the front clutch plate.

Blast, I've put it all back together again so now I will worry that there might be a washer missing.

Went for a very local test and gearchange not good. Able to select first and move off but difficult to change gear and unable to select neutral, even as I coasted into the yard.

Had another go at adjusting the cable, another test, and it was a wee bit better. Easier to change gear but still not able to select neutral. Enough for the day as the light was fading.

Trying to think whether a missing washer could be responsible for the poor clutch action? On the one hand, might think the absent washer would mean reduced clutch lift? But on the other, surely adjusting the cable would account for the extra gap?
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: AzCal Retred on February 01, 2022, 10:33:29 pm
Raymond - I truly feel your pain!! I find most Bullet-related tasks are way easier about the 3rd or 4th trip in... :o ;D ;D ;D

Maybe that needle bearing "clutch pad roller" would justify another go around? Also that shock absorbing "tensioner buffer"? I always feel better about a return trip if I can add a few new parts.  - ACR -

PART No. 90010 ; CLUTCH PAD/ROLLER, INDIAN MADE 4 SPEED & 5 SPEED (2008on) GEARBOXES ; £12.00

PART No. 200140 ; CHAIN TENSIONER BUFFER ASSEMBLY ; £7.26
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Carl Fenn on February 02, 2022, 11:09:28 am
Greetings and welcome to club, l must say that a nice looking machine and very clean, l was aware the starter clutches and such like could be an issue on the older models but after getting mine they are easy to kick over, so you got rid of some unnecessary expense.
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Raymond on February 02, 2022, 03:28:20 pm
Raymond - I truly feel your pain!! I find most Bullet-related tasks are way easier about the 3rd or 4th trip in...

AzCal, you are right of course. I need to go and have another look and pay more attention to the push rod doodah. There wasn't a washer on it, and there cannot have been a washer adhering to the end plate because I wiped every plate. My attention was on keeping the plates in the correct order to avoid problems with the dished ones.

Suppose I could look at the tensioner too. And I should take the end cover off the gearbox and see what might benefit from tinkering under there.

Usually I say Onwards & Upwards but today I feel more like, onwards and onwards.
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: richard211 on February 02, 2022, 04:10:16 pm
 Its not the end of the world if the bearing washer is not installed. The only problem is that the clutch may not be fully disengaging, so in the mean time there is an adjustment you could try and that involves opening the inspection cover on the gearbox which is above the  kick /gear lever. Underneath the inspection cover there is a nut and a slotted screw, loosen the nut and carefully tighten the slotted screw until you feel it contact the clutch rod, then tighten the nut to lock it into place. It would be best to slacken the clutch cable before you adjust the screw under the inspection cover. Once the slotted screw is adjusted, then take the slack out of the clutch cable.
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Raymond on February 02, 2022, 06:13:51 pm
Thank you, Richard, this is the clutch cable adjustment I have done two or three times now, and it has made some improvement. Similar procedure adjusting the clutch cable on a Yamaha XS650 - loosen the locknut, screw the adjuster inward till it just touches, then back off slightly. I think Yamaha say to back off half a turn but for best clutch feel, you back off very slightly, maybe 1/8 turn. That's what I have tried with the Bullet. It's not easy to feel the precise point when the adjuster touches, but then I back off just a little bit. And yes, I involve the adjuster half-way along the cable as well.

Pete Snidal also mentions taking off the other inspection cover, at top left, and adjusting until the clutch operating arm is parallel to the top of the gearbox. But when I looked at this, it made no sense to me. I am sure Pete knows his Bullets inside out but sometimes I find his book is chatty rather than precise and the contents are arranged haphazardly.

I think there are further adjustments when I remove the outer cover from the gearbox?
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: richard211 on February 02, 2022, 10:13:56 pm
There are a couple more adjustments once the outer gearbox cover is removed, one is the detent plunger (spring loaded chisel shaped tip, ensure the plunger slides freely), think of it as an adjuster that can increase or decrease the force needed to shift gears (if the plunger is wound in all the way it becomes very hard to shift the gears and if it's too loose it can skip gears with very little force), the screw slot always has to be in the horizontal position. What I normally do is use a wooden plank and put it under the centre stand. It will help in adding more clearance between the rear wheel and the ground. That way when you make adjustments you can rotate the rear wheel with one hand while the other hand is operating the shifter.
 The adjuster plate also plays an important role in the shifting it helps in centering the ratchet so that all the gears are selectable , if it's difficult to shift from 2nd to 1st rotate the plate a little bit in the clockwise direction and if you are having difficulty engaging 4th gear rotate the adjustment plate anti clockwise.
 There is a plate (also called the stop plate) that cover the ratchet mechanism and that is held in place by 2 nuts. Do not over tighten them as it could prevent the ratchet mechanism from rotating freely. Some of the gearboxes I have worked on, these nuts just were just set where it was tightened very lightly. It could be undone with one's fingers.

 Once you get the adjustments roughly set, you can start the engine while the bike is still on the centre stand and the wood plank and go through the gears to get a feel of it and make further adjustments if needed. Take your time and be patient it takes time to get the hang of how it works.
 
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Raymond on February 03, 2022, 10:01:09 am
Greetings and welcome to club, l must say that a nice looking machine and very clean, l was aware the starter clutches and such like could be an issue on the older models but after getting mine they are easy to kick over, so you got rid of some unnecessary expense.

Thank you, Carl!

And thank you, Richard - I will need to get in there and take a look - your explanation helps make things clearer. Yes, I have found that with the bike on the centre stand, both wheels are still on the ground and I have used a plank under the stand to have a back wheel that turns, as for chain maintenance and so forth.
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Adrian II on February 03, 2022, 01:59:04 pm
Raymond,

the centre stand off the Electra-X might help, that model has longer rear shock absorbers than the standard Bullet, so it might allow you to re-deploy that plank of wood for a more exciting purpose.

Part number 801456 from the usual source. Just be aware changing the springs is a bit of a b*gger.  ::)

A.

Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: richard211 on February 03, 2022, 02:22:22 pm
Raymond,

the centre stand off the Electra-X might help, that model has longer rear shock absorbers than the standard Bullet, so it might allow you to re-deploy that plank of wood for a more exciting purpose.

Part number 801456 from the usual source. Just be aware changing the springs is a bit of a b*gger.  ::)

A.

 My Thunderbird is only having one center stand spring in place because I have not been successful in getting the second one on and on the last attempt it nearly killed me. ;D
 
 Adrian whenever you get time would you be able to do a write up on the Magneto ignition and how its setup?
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Adrian II on February 03, 2022, 03:04:04 pm
I'll have a go later on. It will be pretty basic!  ;)

A.
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Raymond on February 03, 2022, 03:42:53 pm
My Thunderbird is only having one center stand spring in place because I have not been successful in getting the second one on and on the last attempt it nearly killed me. ;D

Ah, now Gentlemen, if you are having problems fitting stand springs then might I suggest you watch this short video?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e1iLaCHKiRQ

I have used this marvellous Allen Millyard tip a few times and can testify that it works a treat - you just need a few penny washers.
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: richard211 on February 03, 2022, 04:08:43 pm
Ah, now Gentlemen, if you are having problems fitting stand springs then might I suggest you watch this short video?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e1iLaCHKiRQ

I have used this marvellous Allen Millyard tip a few times and can testify that it works a treat - you just need a few penny washers.

That is a very clever way of installing the centre stand spring.
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: richard211 on February 03, 2022, 04:11:16 pm
I'll have a go later on. It will be pretty basic!  ;)

A.

 Thank you Adrian. Looking forward to learning more about the magneto ignition.
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Paul W on February 03, 2022, 08:02:26 pm
I’ve found the best way to increase the height of the bike on the centre stand, rather than an unwieldy plank, is to buy two 4”x4” wooden fence post caps and use them. Put the bike on the centre stand and place one on the floor by each side of the stand. Then lean the bike away from you, using the handlebars and push the fence post cap under the stand using your foot. Ensure the bike won’t tip over (it won’t be likely to unless you have leaned it downhill). Go round the other side and repeat the process. The fence post caps can be carried in a pannier or top box and are useful to have with you if having to fix a puncture out on the road.

I also place one fence post cap under the sidestand when the bike is parked in the garage; it makes it sit more upright and takes up less room.
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Yinzer on February 03, 2022, 08:41:25 pm
...are useful to have with you if having to fix a puncture out on the road.

That almost sounds like an admission of guilt :)
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Paul W on February 04, 2022, 03:51:06 pm
On average this bike has suffered a rear wheel puncture once a year for the last three years. The one time I couldn’t fix it myself was during an MCC classic trial after I’d removed the centre stand for more ground clearance when off road and couldn’t find a way of getting the wheel out….. ::)

I treated myself to a rechargeable battery powered tyre pump to go with the spare tube I carry. It’s worked; no puncture since….  8)
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Raymond on March 01, 2022, 04:12:47 pm
Today was the day. First day of Spring, Sun is out, went on-line and bought some road tax. So, no more excuses, time to go for a proper ride. Up to now, a few exploratory rides up and down the lane but today we're going to the filling station. The long way! Proper roads, proper traffic, too far from the house to push the bike home if it sulks for any reason.

Wow, it's like your first time all over again. Riding a bike that is. Concentrate on right-foot, one-up & three-down. Left foot to brake, please. Once we were out on country roads, 80 kph showing (speedo might be optimistic?) felt great to be bop, bop, bopping along. Filled the tank, bigger than I thought or that might be the soaring price of petrol.

(https://i.postimg.cc/HWJW7bCV/PICT2820.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

On getting home, couple small adjustments.Took a craft knife to the nylon wheel inside the throttle grip - wasn't sure it was letting the throttle shut all the way. After cutting some more away (already had to modify it to fit inside the new switchgear) there was the satisfying click of the slide going all the way down.

Of course, had to wash the bike, rinse with loads of water, try to remove the salt.

17 kilometres, which I make to be just over ten miles. But an adventure.
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Paul W on March 01, 2022, 07:46:24 pm
Well done, Raymond! I’m sure you’ll find a few teething issues but your rides will get longer and longer as you gain more trust in the bike.

These days my rides are usually around 90-100 miles in all. Having ridden all those “wonder where that goes” type of roads around here I think that I will venture even further once the warmer weather sets in.
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Raymond on April 22, 2022, 08:42:34 am
You are correct, Paul.

On a few very local rides, started to notice sommat not quite right on the kill switch/ignition circuit, decided to re-wire the bike again.

Soon noticed that the 2-wire connector for the ammeter was loose - probably loose enough that wiggling the wiring would make/break the circuit. Should probably have left it at that, but having bought tracer wire, connectors etc I carried on with the re-wire project. Yesterday, put the bike back together, started the engine, went for a test ride.

Only managed half-a-mile, the engine began to miss, cough, stopped. It re-started on one kick, but wouldn't run right. Limped most of the way back, it stopped twice more, ended up pushing the bike along the street we live in.

Wondered if it was the HT lead coming out from the coil - I had noticed that it is a very loose fit. So, off with the tank, the lead was loose, pushed it firmly in, tank back on, started the engine, off for another test ride.

Only managed half-a-mile. Same thing, engine gave up and stopped. Again, re-started easily but reluctant to run. Limped home,only had to push along the back lane this time so that's progress.

Wondered if it was a temperature-related fault. Left the bike for half-an-hour, then started the engine and sat on the bike in the bike yard for ten minutes. The engine seemed fine even with the occasional blip of throttle. so went for another test ride. Only managed half-a-mile. Same thing, engine gave up and stopped. Again, re-started easily but reluctant to run. This third time, limped all the way home.

It's obviously an electrical problem, so I now suspect the carb. After all, they say never doubt the ability of a carb to persuade you the fault is the electrics. Is the problem occurring after half a mile when I perhaps open the throttle a little bit? Maybe it's gummed up, as happens with modern fuel? Last thing I did yesterday was remove the carb, take the float bowl off, squirt carb cleaner through the passages.

Today, I'll put the carb back on the bike and have another go. But I'm in the dark whether the problem is electrical - quite likely as I've just re-wired - or is it the carb.

Suggestions welcome of course!
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: tooseevee on April 22, 2022, 11:38:57 am

Today, I'll put the carb back on the bike and have another go. But I'm in the dark whether the problem is electrical - quite likely as I've just re-wired - or is it the carb.

Suggestions welcome of course!

            Could be your float bowl is not filling at a fast enough rate? Riding with throttle for a distance empties it beyond the intake's ability to suck any more. Then while it's not running as you pull over & stop, it fills enough to restart?

            Just a wild-ass guess :)(http://)

           You'll find it - doesn't sound electric. Seems more fuel to me.
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Paul W on April 22, 2022, 12:37:04 pm
            Could be your float bowl is not filling at a fast enough rate? Riding with throttle for a distance empties it beyond the intake's ability to suck any more. Then while it's not running as you pull over & stop, it fills enough to restart?

            Just a wild-ass guess :)(http://)

           You'll find it - doesn't sound electric. Seems more fuel to me.

My 350 did that, I tried for a long time to get it to run right (after changing the soft exhaust valve seat to something resembling steel, rather than cheese) then discovered a piece of the metal casting was partly blocking the inlet. It was sitting under the float chamber valve seat and it was part of the end of the cut thread where the seat screwed in. Use of full throttle gave about fifteen seconds before the float chamber emptied and the engine stopped. By the time the bike had drifted to a halt the float chamber began to fill again and it would start first kick! VERY frustrating. Poor quality control at the factory! By the time I'd finally found  the fault I had a new concentric carb on order and fitted that instead so the Mikcarb VM24 sits on a shelf.
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Adrian II on April 22, 2022, 01:35:08 pm
Check the entire fuel supply system.

Breather hole in tank filler cap clear?

Fuel tap filter clear?

Fuel tap itself passing enough fuel? Some of the Indian taps are junk, you don't want the fuel tap equivalent of an enlarged prostate stifling the flow!  :o :o :o

Fuel pipe in good condition, no blockages?

Any in-line fuel filter clear?

Fuel pipe spigot in carburettor clear, as per Paul's VM24 Mikarb problem?

Float valve and float operating freely?

I know we went all around the houses with the UK versus USA method of how to wire up your ignition and kill switch, that at least ought to be sorted by now.

A.
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Raymond on April 22, 2022, 04:25:12 pm
Thank you all for your help. I know how difficult it is to diagnose a problem remotely - wish I could have just half-an-hour with somebody who knows . . .

Last night, took the carb off, removed float bowl, float, float needle, blasted carb cleaner through various orifices. Cleaned the float bowl - very little muck in there. Today, refitted using a 32mm radiator hose. Because this has a slight curve, plus able to cut it just very slightly shorter than the rubber manifold, was able to position the carb better - I have found that it's too easy to have interference twix throttle cable & rear of the tank.

(https://i.postimg.cc/pTTCDPjD/PICT0164.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

Started the engine. It wouldn't start without the mixture enrichener lever down. Unusual, normally just needs a touch of throttle.

Engine running, lift the lever and usually I need to hold a wee bit of throttle. But today, the revs just rose and rose. Must have been 3,000 rpm? Having mechanical sympathy, pulled the de-compressor to shut her down. Checked the tank wasn't back to its tricks, checked throttle lever returning the slide fully down. Wound the throttle stop a long way out - I think that's the knurled screw on l/h side of carb body? Tried two or three times with the same result - revs climbed to an uncomfortable level.

Took the air filter off and it seems to me that with the slide seated, it's still sitting far too high? Don't know if photo shows this:

(https://i.postimg.cc/1zp0wf4n/PICT0165.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

It's not being held up by the throttle stop, which you can see left of the carb mouth - wound well out.

Pulled the spark plug and it's black.

I'm lost, don't know what's going on.

I didn't knowingly adjust anything on the carb, apart from the throttle stop.
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: nonfiction on April 22, 2022, 08:20:26 pm
Have had similar trouble when the throttle cable housing comes out of the twistgrip housing--maybe it's standing on the edge there, not nestled into its little home, just making the cable think it's half an inch shorter than it is?
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Adrian II on April 22, 2022, 11:10:06 pm
The throttle slide should go right down to the bottom, apart from whatever throttle stop adjustment you need. A snagged throttle cable certainly WOULD make the engine race when it should idle: my old Electra-X would do this when a mid-cable adjuster got caught up on something, can't remember exactly what. Might be worth taking the tank off and checking the throttle cable run.

Did we mention possible air leaks on the carb mounting?

A.
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Raymond on April 23, 2022, 08:42:56 am
 :-[ :-[ :-[

Nonfiction, Adrian, you are both correct. The ferrule at the handlebar had come out - must have been when I took the carb on/off. Hence slide held up, hence high revs . . .

First thing I did this morning was follow up on your suggestion and check. Have kicked the engine over and it's back to the familiar slow chuff, chuff. Will reset the throttle stop and try another test ride later - busy with other fish to fry this morning so to speak.

Thank you.
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Paul W on April 23, 2022, 11:32:20 am
I forgot to mention how I confirmed my bike had a fuel flow problem. I turned off the fuel tap immediately when the engine cut out and had a look inside the float bowl. It was all but empty, so at least I knew it wasn’t an ignition fault.

Having ruled out a tank cap breather/blocked outlet/tap/pipe fault I tracked it down to a carb issue. Having already cleaned the thing by dismantling it and having put it any number of times in an ultrasonic cleaner and blown everything clear with an air line, I eventually poked the long thin application tube of a can of WD40 into every orifice it would fit and felt something suddenly “give”, up inside where the float needle brass jet screwed in. I was then able to fish out the errant piece of metal casting material - problem solved.
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: tooseevee on April 23, 2022, 12:03:42 pm
:-[ :-[ :-[

Nonfiction, Adrian, you are both correct. The ferrule at the handlebar had come out - must have been when I took the carb on/off. Hence slide held up, hence high revs . . .

First thing I did this morning was follow up on your suggestion and check. Have kicked the engine over and it's back to the familiar slow chuff, chuff. Will reset the throttle stop and try another test ride later - busy with other fish to fry this morning so to speak.

Thank you.

           Ah, yes, the old missing ferrule nightmare :) :)(http://)

           Another hint from the cobweb covered past: I found years ago that it's WAY easier to break the halves of the throttle control & remove the cable at the throttle end to play around with removing the carb, cleaning, playing with jets, getting the cable hooked up to the slide, remounting the carb, etc., etc., than it is to fight with the slide spring trying to get the throttle cable hooked back up to the slide with the cable hooked up to the throttle end. The Mikuni TM flatslide has a hellracious spring especially with hands & wrists that hurt the way mine do. In the long run, it's WAY easier to unhook the cable at the throttle end FIRST.

         And you can check the operation of the cable & slide beFORE you hook the throttle end back up.
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Raymond on April 23, 2022, 12:10:25 pm
Paul, Tooseevee, good advice, will check all those.

To clarify, what the ferrule had done was come out of its housing, but it was still present sitting on the edge of the casting, holding the cable part pulled. To take a positive, all this messing about means I'm gaining more familiarity with pulling the tank on and off.

Since I'm here, quick picture of the 'office' with newly fitted Smith's chronometric repro and white-faced ammeter:


(https://i.postimg.cc/htDrDZnZ/PICT0166.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Raymond on April 23, 2022, 06:45:16 pm
This afternoon, found some time to see if cleaning the carb has helped.

With the ferrule back where it lives, the bike started readily and I decided to ride as far as the next village 1¾ miles away. Hey, that's too far to push, so I was monitoring how it felt. Nothing concentrates the mind like half-expecting the engine to die at any moment, but all was well. And when we got there, in a moment of insanity I decided to carry on to the next cross roads and take a longer way home, including a stretch of Main Road!

The bike behaved perfectly. So I went for a second test ride. Way hey! According to that splendid chronometric instrument, we covered more that eleven miles today.

A good day with the Bullet. So I rewarded the bike by wiping off some of the road dirt. Couple of pictures:


(https://i.postimg.cc/QtYXSt8p/PICT0170.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)


(https://i.postimg.cc/4xRXWjgF/PICT0169.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Adrian II on April 23, 2022, 10:27:18 pm
Have you now found the bike you hoped you were buying?  ;D

Nice when they do what they say on the packet, eh?

A.

Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Raymond on April 24, 2022, 08:21:47 am
Have you now found the bike you hoped you were buying?  ;D

Nice when they do what they say on the packet, eh?

Its getting there.

I'm loving riding the Bullet. Never ridden a bike with a sprung saddle before, but because the bike is low and solid, plonked into that saddle, engine chuffing away, upright but comfortable riding position, it feels delightful. In what I imagine to be a 1940s riding experience?

It's very often the case that a small thing can stop a bike. I'm hopeful that as a few of those small things are sorted, I will feel able to venture a little further.

Each ride an opportunity to practice getting the gearchange right. Changing up is usually fine but sometimes changing down I find myself lost in false neutrals. Seems to work best if I place my boot under the pedal and pre-load it then de-clutch and make a deliberate change. But if that fails, there's the neutral finder.

Glad I live in a rural area, I don't feel ready to ride in stop-go traffic yet. But it's early days.
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: ddavidv on April 25, 2022, 12:31:12 pm
My 5 speed seems to like deliberate gear changes with a very much on/off clutch.
Wind out revs
Pull in clutch, pause .5 sec
Shift without trepidation
Pause .5 sec
Release clutch and roll on throttle

Trying to 'speed shift' it results in problems.
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Paul W on April 25, 2022, 04:01:57 pm
Quote
Each ride an opportunity to practice getting the gear change right. Changing up is usually fine but sometimes changing down I find myself lost in false neutrals. Seems to work best if I place my boot under the pedal and pre-load it then de-clutch and make a deliberate change. But if that fails, there's the neutral finder.

My 4 speed was just like that. I tend to ride quite fast and I found that trying to change down into 3rd prior to entering a fast corner sometimes left me in a false neutral, which was no fun at all.

I cured it by fitting a 5 speed box!
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Raymond on April 25, 2022, 04:54:49 pm
As noted earlier, helps to take your time and changing up has usually been okay, but been finding it awkward to get my great big boot into gap between the footpeg and the gear lever to lift it for downshifts. In fact, sometimes, difficult to extract the boot after attempting a gear change.

So today, moved the gear lever up, by one single spline:

(https://i.postimg.cc/ZK36sTr9/PICT0172.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

Short test ride, along a local lane - you pass through people's farm yards - where there's bound to be a number of changes up and down through the gears.

Brilliant! I never thought such a small change would reap such rewards. Changing up through the gears, need to lift my foot a tad and tap down, easy and natural. Changing down, a very easy lift with the toe of the boot and I didn't miss once!

Onwards and upwards . . .





Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: AzCal Retred on April 25, 2022, 05:06:50 pm
Nice Fettling!  ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Raymond on April 26, 2022, 12:50:54 pm
Nice Fettling!  ;D ;D ;D

Thank you, AzCal!

But today I have been stoopid. Was looking at something to do with the indicator circuit - turn signals in the US? And I walked away leaving the bike switched ON. Something I never do on any bike. But it happened today so now I am feeling full of remorse - would apologise to the bike if I could.

I must have left the bike for an hour or so. When I realised, checked the coil and it was HOT! So my questions are, am I likely to have fried the coil? How can I check if the coil is alright and has survived? Is there anything else I might have damaged?

Right now, I have the smart charger hooked up to top up the battery.
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Adrian II on April 26, 2022, 12:57:21 pm
Just try running the bike. If it runs OK, fine, you'll remember next time. If you did cook the coil, new ones aren't silly money unless you're shelling out for a Bosch blue coil or a Pertronix, buy a new one and you're even more likely to remember next time...  ;)

A.
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Raymond on April 26, 2022, 01:53:03 pm
Thank you, Adrian. Tank is off just now but when she's back together I'll just see if the engine fires up.

Looking around this forum, found that the primary resistance s/b about 3.4 Ohms so I'll see if I can check that - depends how easy to get at the terminals.
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Raymond on April 29, 2022, 06:26:17 pm
Bike back in one big piece. Went for the test run, everything electrical seems to work fine but, we're back to run half a mile then give up.

Thinking back to the suggestions you gentlemen put forward, I though, fuel starvation perhaps? After running a short distance, opening the throttle a little bit seems to provoke the condition. Starts again quite readily.

Easy to test - pulled the petrol line off, held a jug to catch the flood, turned the tap on and . . . no flood, just a mere dribble.

That's excellent - now I know what the problem is. Well, there might be other issues, but petrol filter and tap next things to look at.
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: AzCal Retred on April 29, 2022, 08:02:36 pm
Raymond - I was amazed at the stock petcock's pitiful dribble. After some futzing around, I settled on the H's "Alcohol" petcock with a straight 1/4" "tail", going right into a largish 40 micron in-line clear fuel filter. The Alcohol petcock is of larger ID, big enough to "vent" the filter housing. I don't care about a reserve position because I always check the tank level before riding off. If I can't see fuel sloshing it gets topped off. Popping the fuel line free of the carb gives a nice stream now. No excuses for a low float bowl fuel level now!  ;D
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Raymond on May 07, 2022, 05:17:29 pm
Been trying to fix a few issues. For example, the seat mounting hardware was awful. I thought the seat was mounted on two double-thread studs - M8x1 in the frame and M8x1.25 for the nuts securing the saddle. But both were badly chewed. It was only when I bought M8x1 bolts, with the intention of cutting the heads off to make new studs, that I discovered the two sides are different. On the left, the coarser thread is used both for the nuts and the screwing into the frame. Oh, well.

Now that's sorted with stainless bolts, M8x1 one side and M8x1.25 t'other, went out for a short run today. Only about seven or eight miles, but gave me a chance to reflect on the Bullet and the work I've done. Came to the conclusion, this is not a bike you bend to your will. Rather, you have to learn to live with the foibles. Quite happy to have reached that conclusion.

Parked in the back yard and one of those foibles manifested. After a few minutes, noticed a large oily patch under the bike. Looked like an egg cupful but was probably not quite that much. Couldn't see where it was coming from. Put the Bullet on the centre stand and only one or two more drips came. Seemed to be originating right at the back of the engine/gearbox area.

I think the engine breather tube must be the culprit. Do these bikes occasionally have a burp from the breather? Bike is sitting in the garage just now and there's no more oil under it.
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: AzCal Retred on May 07, 2022, 05:31:31 pm
Probably just exuding some class or a spirit manifestation, letting you know who's in charge!  ;D

The consensus is that over about 1/2 full on the oil tank increases net losses. Do you still have that awful catch can? If so toss it and just run the vent to the front sprocket area.

Glad you are reaching an accommodation with your wee beastie! - ACR -
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Raymond on May 07, 2022, 07:09:52 pm
Thanks AzCal. I don't know about no catch can, so I suppose it must be gone? The breather is a rubber hose to the oil filler and a second hose from there which passes through the frame and must just tip it over the back of the gearbox.

I fished the vent hose out to take a look and it had one of those flattened ends, which you pinch to release any fluid. Which is what made me wonder whether perhaps a slight build up of crankcase pressure might have blown out an accumulation?

Been out for another putter this evening and no recurrence.
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Paul W on May 07, 2022, 08:56:13 pm
Been trying to fix a few issues. For example, the seat mounting hardware was awful. I thought the seat was mounted on two double-thread studs - M8x1 in the frame and M8x1.25 for the nuts securing the saddle. But both were badly chewed. It was only when I bought M8x1 bolts, with the intention of cutting the heads off to make new studs, that I discovered the two sides are different. On the left, the coarser thread is used both for the nuts and the screwing into the frame. Oh, well.

Now that's sorted with stainless bolts, M8x1 one side and M8x1.25 t'other, went out for a short run today. Only about seven or eight miles, but gave me a chance to reflect on the Bullet and the work I've done. Came to the conclusion, this is not a bike you bend to your will. Rather, you have to learn to live with the foibles. Quite happy to have reached that conclusion.

Parked in the back yard and one of those foibles manifested. After a few minutes, noticed a large oily patch under the bike. Looked like an egg cupful but was probably not quite that much. Couldn't see where it was coming from. Put the Bullet on the centre stand and only one or two more drips came. Seemed to be originating right at the back of the engine/gearbox area.

I think the engine breather tube must be the culprit. Do these bikes occasionally have a burp from the breather? Bike is sitting in the garage just now and there's no more oil under it.

My 2004, Indian home market 350 uses 26 tpi threads (BSC?) for the studs in the frame lugs that mount the seat, rather than metric. I lost one of the two nuts out on the road and it took a bit of trial and error to find out what they were, then I had to order some specially for that one job.

As far as the oil puddle is concerned, it’s probably just marking its territory.
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Raymond on May 11, 2022, 05:55:01 pm
Still having problems. Got to thinking it's either fuel starvation 'coz the tap don't flow enough, or it's fuel starvation 'coz the fuel level is too low, ie I need to fill up, or the coil is old and not giving a strong enough spark, or the timing is wrong, or it's something else.

Started the day by going to the nearest filling station and filling the tank, to eliminate one possibility. Filled to about 2cm below the fuel cap - didn't brim it, on other bikes I've known that to cause other issues . . . but unfortunately, still not running right.

Yesterday, ordered Hitchcocks tdc tool and timing disc and, amazingly, they were here this morning so the next task was to try and follow the procedure for finding tdc and checking the timing, but didn't get that far. Because, the plug is BR8ES and careful inspection of the NGK spark plug cap showed it to be marked 5 kΩ - that's surely not right?

Last year, had a problem with Miss November - XS650 - when I innocently fitted non-resistor plugs caps. Plugs were BP7ES. The bike ran a few miles then stopped and that's when I learned that you need resistor plugs or resistor caps or the Boyer ignition gets a fit of the vapours. (To save reading back, my Bullet has a Boyer power box doing duty as rec/reg and points ignition.)

So now wondering whether part of the bike's problems have been due to too much resistance, with both resistor plug and plug cap?

Rummaged in my box of XS bits, found the non-resistor caps and fitted one on the Bullet. Been for a short test ride - it seemed a lot better but still misfired a couple of times and going up one slight rise produced a sound from the silencer like a shotgun being discharged.

Still intend to check the ignition timing at an early opportunity. But I certainly feel I have put right one thing which was wrong.

There may still be other issues.
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: AzCal Retred on May 11, 2022, 07:10:15 pm
Pop off the fuel line at the carb & see if you can get mebbe a pint a minute or similar, keeping tubing at that same level. The OEM taps are pretty restrictive. The wide bore alcohol taps are a whole 'nuther ballgame.

The float level needs to be OK also, I think it's 1" from the gasket surface to the top of the floats, upside down, on the Mikcarb.

Blast some spray carb cleaner in there through the passages whilst you are in there for good measure.

Hook up the fuel line to the carb with the float bowl off and SEE edzakery how much gas it passes. If it can fill the float bowl in 3-6 seconds I don't see how it can be an issue.

Spark gap can be opened up a bit if using fine-wire iridium plugs. Gives the mixture more opportunity to find a chunk of spark.

After you are sure the fuel level is proper and flow is good, feed it a new spark plug to placate the spirits & try again.

Timing shouldn't be a major issue if it's running OK most of the time. The "full retard" or "full advance" methods should get you close enough for 'gummin't work.

Keep picking at it - ACR -

PS - Your fuel cap IS VENTING, yes? You can hear it "wheeze" if you shake the bike & slosh the fuel about? It can be disassembled and the vent hole reamed out if necessary, at least my detachable cap can.
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Raymond on May 11, 2022, 09:48:32 pm
Thank you AzCal - once again, some good advice and a few things for me to try.

It's all too easy to lose direction and just keep hopelessly casting about.

I know there's a good bike in there and when we're in top and it's running proper, hilarious fun.
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Raymond on May 12, 2022, 10:40:49 am
Just been out to t'garage, pulled fuel hose off carb, held measuring jug, tap on and used my pocket watch to time 1/2 a pint - 80 seconds.  That would be 2 minutes 40 seconds for a full pint, or about 200 millilitres per minute.

More than the trickle that was coming before I cleaned the tap but a lot less than a vigorous flow.

Is this slow enough to account for the running problems? Time to think about a tap with a better flow rate?
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Raymond on May 12, 2022, 11:58:43 am
And further investigation, took carb off to check float level, shows the barrel of the carb to be black and sooty, especially at the filter end. The slide also shows signs of a sooty environment, again more on the filter side. Hope the pictures show this, apologies for the out of focus image of the slide:

(https://i.postimg.cc/9XLhSkPx/PICT0202.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)


(https://i.postimg.cc/9X8617VK/PICT0203.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)


Black soot which readily rubs off. Too much petrol?

 
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Paul W on May 12, 2022, 04:16:18 pm
I suggest you check that the inlet valve clearance is just perceptible  when cold. Looks like it might be too tight, causing slight leakage and blowback into the carb.
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Raymond on May 12, 2022, 06:52:37 pm
Thank you, Paul! That much soot, never saw that in a carb before, was wondering how that could happen and the possibility of inlet not closing crossed my mind.

Still haven't checked the valves but obviously need to, I believe they should be set to just turn when cold?

Cheers, Raymond
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Adrian II on May 12, 2022, 09:07:44 pm
Yes, the push rods should just spin freely on the tappets but with no up and down play beyond that, set at top dead centre on the compression stroke with a cold engine.

A.
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Raymond on May 14, 2022, 08:22:46 am
Checked the pushrods yesterday. Probably should have been in there before but anyway, both turn freely so the inlet is not being held open. There is slight up & down play which I should adjust out sometime but as my friend Elliot tells me 'a tappy engine is a happy engine.'

One condition that seems to provoke the engine holding back or giving up is riding at very small throttle and then asking for a little bit more. I suppose that's the transition from pilot to needle? So I lifted the needle by one notch - the clip was at third lowest, now at second lowest. One test run up to the next village and back, about three miles, the bike felt much happier. Tried to provoke it by giving some throttle, maybe halfway, from lowish speeds and it was fine.

Then I went for another short run and it stopped just after pulling out from a junction. Uhmm.

Still, I feel it's going in the right direction. Now wondering about investing in a new coil . . .
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: AzCal Retred on May 14, 2022, 04:07:00 pm
Sounds reasonable. Electrical issues are on/off usually. Make sure it's not just a bad connection - loose, corroded, or broken wire with intermittent contact, etc. Check the ground to the coil also, I usually run a dedicated (-) wire to the important stuff, frame conduction is too haphazard for my taste. Look hard at the kill switch circuit also, it's in-line with the coil (+).

One plan is to run a fused (+) jumper directly to the coil and take it out for a spin - this eliminates all the intermediate BS. If the coil/condenser is getting hot & dying intermittently that may help find it. If the solid "hotwired" system runs flawlessly for 30-45 minutes or so, maybe the issue is in the intermediate wiring.

Good Hunting - ACR -
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Raymond on May 14, 2022, 04:46:50 pm
Thank you for your good suggestions. My Bullet doesn't have an earth from the coil - it earths through the points:


(https://i.postimg.cc/3JNWtTf9/PICT2799.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)


Should there be a separate earth from the coil?

If I understand correctly, the jumper wire would be a wire with an inline fuse, running from the battery + to the coil +?

Today, been out on the Bullet twice for a total of about 46 miles and it ran well, the engine only wanted to hold back/try to cut out twice and was able to keep it running by grabbing the clutch.

Biggest issue today was the front brake seems to want to stay on as it gets warmed up. Pulling the top actuating lever up - it only moves a tiny amount - seems to release it. But it makes me a bit wary of the front brake. The next thing I need to take a look at . . .
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: AzCal Retred on May 14, 2022, 07:16:28 pm
The coil has two windings - the low voltage (LV) side & the high voltage (HV) side. The LV side is powered up (+) and grounds thru the points.
The points housing conducts back to the Bat (-) thru engine cases, various bolt/washer combos, etc. until it gets there. Doesn't hurt to have an actual copper wire running back to the (-) Ground lug.

When the points break open, the LV side field collapses and HV side shoots the juice to the spark plug core, jumps the gap and comes back to the coil case. Again, paint, bolts, rust all work their voltage sucking magic. A low resistance copper wire from the bare case back to the (-) Ground lug provides a dedicated low resistance path.

Yes - a fused (+) jumper running to the coil LV (+) bypasses all the grade-school wiring. It HAS to work at that point.

The front brake cam shafts on ALL my machines have needed freeing up. Usually working them with some 3 'n 1 oil after they are apart, shoes off did the trick. Usually... ;D

Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Adrian II on May 14, 2022, 09:51:19 pm
Quote
One plan is to run a fused (+) jumper directly to the coil and take it out for a spin - this eliminates all the intermediate BS. If the coil/condenser is getting hot & dying intermittently that may help find it. If the solid "hotwired" system runs flawlessly for 30-45 minutes or so, maybe the issue is in the intermediate wiring.

What my learned friend is proposing is simply what a thief would do to steal the bike! So YES, just run a wire from the POSITIVE battery terminal directly to the coil where terminal it would normally receive its supply from the ignition and kill switches. I know you rewired, but of course the OEM ignition switches are not the very best quality.

You do not want to run a lead to earth (ground) off the coil, it would simply short out the points! Leave that side of it as it is now.

A.
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: AzCal Retred on May 15, 2022, 03:08:20 am
To be clear, a ground (bond?) lead to the clean metal of the spark coil case back to common (-) ground lug, not the (-) side running to the points. That would be for the HV side benefit. The LV side may possibly benefit from a bonding wire, providing a dedicated low resistance path back to the (-) ground terminal from the engine cases. Nuance stuff, only matters if the cases/frame don't have low resistance return path. The VOM will tell the tale.
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Raymond on May 15, 2022, 08:08:47 am
. . . I know you rewired, but of course the OEM ignition switches are not the very best quality. . .

The bike doesn't have OEM switches - it was my decision to fit alloy switches which led to the rewiring. Of course it means that instead off OEM switches known to be not the best quality, the bike has probably Chinese switches of completely unknown character. They seem to work.

Thank you for all the suggestions. I am trying to be methodical but I'm operating in what is for me the unknown.

I will use my multimeter to check resistance between the coil casing and a good earth point on the frame - I'm guessing the reading ought to be low?

Will fitting a jumper from battery to coil tend to cook the coil? I know you shouldn't leave the bike switched on for that reason. Though that is something i inadvertently did a wee while back.

Front brake service coming soon.
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Raymond on May 15, 2022, 01:38:00 pm
Front brake service has started.

The link rod puzzled me a bit - took it out:

(https://i.postimg.cc/8cmq8YZH/PICT0216.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

and what we have is, at the lower end, l/h thread, an adjuster nut and a threaded trunnion. And at the upper end, r/h thread, a small locknut, an adjuster nut and an unthreaded trunnion. It freely slides over the thread. I don't think this is right?

But more immediately, the problem is how to remove the back-plate nut. It looks like 1"AF but haven't been able to shift it. Wondering what the correct size is and what too you gentlemen use to undo this nut? Deep-access 6-point socket? #

Post scriptum - done some more reading around and it seems that my front brake has had the drilled trunnion mod. Which seems to be a Marmite subject - hope I haven't started an oil thread. But I would still like to know how to undo the back-plate nut.
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: AzCal Retred on May 15, 2022, 03:50:36 pm
The 1" deep well works if you have one that clears the axle. A 1" box wrench may possibly work. Note the relative position of the speedo drive beforehand & replicate it going back in.

Resistances of ground return paths all need to be below 1 Ohm point to point, 12V isn't much ungawa. A good meter can read resistances down to 0.1 Ohm or so, but 1 or less on most meters is adequate. If higher or you feel inclined, add a bonding jumper.

One drawback to the drilled trunnion is that the return springs no longer work in tandem. The OEM set up allows both springs to act upon both levers, so a sticky spindle at least has some help to return to the rest position.
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Raymond on May 15, 2022, 04:38:04 pm
Thank you once again AzCal.

OMG I hate when things are so tight. Eventually, went and had another word with the nut:

(https://i.postimg.cc/cLm8hvzj/PICT0217.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

With this set up, that's a 27mm deep impact 6-point socket, plus extra leverage, plus tightened the link rod to lock the brake on, plus sat with one foot braced against the brake lever to lock it on tighter . . . and it finally saw reason, that further resistance was futile. These things almost get personal.

I think the drilled trunnion set-up might have contributed to a tendency for the upper brake arm failing to disengage?

Onwards and upwards.
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: AzCal Retred on May 15, 2022, 05:26:27 pm
If you are determined to disassemble the backing plate, it'd be a great time to polish & lube those cam shafts. Dunno what lube to use exactly, "Brake Lube" or Coppercote? Others no doubt have experience here.

PS - mark shaft for both hole & orientation, you want the cams to hit the same shoe at the same spot for repeatability, assuming the brakes are bedded in.
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Adrian II on May 15, 2022, 05:56:34 pm
If you have a solid workbench with a decent enough vice, you can clamp the speedo gearbox end of the front axle up tight then set about that nut with a large ring spanner. Ha! I have noticed recently on different Bullet front wheels that our friends our Indian friends don't always make the brake plate nuts out of the same size hex steel bar, one needed a 9/16" W, the other was 15/16" AF (or 24mm).

A.
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Raymond on May 17, 2022, 09:42:58 am
Thank you for the advice. Might use the red grease I bought just recently for XS650 purposes:

(https://i.postimg.cc/8cY5w1Mj/PICT0218.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)


It's meant for rubber but will Google it, I'm sure it's recommended for use on brakes. Or might use copper grease.

Ordered a new back-plate nut from H's, it wasn't badly mullered but hey, £3. Plus a H-D brake cable, plus a r/h thread trunnion. Did not order shoes - there's about 4.3 mm left so I doubt they are the originals and a PO would be sure to have replaced with the British-made ones. Wouldn't he?
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Adrian II on May 17, 2022, 11:46:17 am
Not necessarily! Depends what deals were on eBay that day...

A.
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: ddavidv on May 17, 2022, 12:20:27 pm
Mine also had the "trunnion sleeve mod" which caused me no end of fits. The replacement part wasn't available when I did mine, so I used a bit of left over rod to take up slack and hold it in place.
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Raymond on May 17, 2022, 01:49:18 pm
Not necessarily! Depends what deals were on eBay that day..'

Mmmmm - you might be right. I phoned Hitchcocks yesterday to see if there is a way to tell the different shoes apart - the man said No.

Meanwhile, dismantled and cleaned everything today. Even dragged my old home-made trueing stand out into the light of day.

(https://i.postimg.cc/hv1GQ8ZS/PICT0219.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

Stops randomly so balance is good, no up & down runout and hardly any side-to-side.

Brake cams after cleaning:

(https://i.postimg.cc/JnqwbT8d/PICT0223.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

There's a little corrosion but can't feel it with a thumbnail. These are semi-static parts anyway so nothing there to frighten the horses.

Now, research how to adjust and put back together . . .


Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Raymond on May 24, 2022, 12:39:26 pm
The Bullet and I have now covered 400 miles together and we're getting to know each others' ways.

Did I give any feedback on the front brake? With the set-up restored and adjusted as per NZ Tim, and somewhat to my surprise, the front brake is very much improved. To the point that I can go to Galashiels and drive in traffic with greater confidence than before.

Meanwhile, this morning, the postie has just been:


(https://i.postimg.cc/9FzBYyLh/PICT0234.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Adrian II on May 24, 2022, 01:57:40 pm
All good fun, don't drill too deep for the new stud holes!

A.
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Karl Childers on May 24, 2022, 02:17:01 pm
Good instructions come with the kit, follow those and all will go well. I took the opportunity to do a few minor clutch upgrades when I did mine. When it's done and you're holding the the  old inner cover, sprag gears and starter in you hands you'll be impressed with the amount of weight you've just removed from the bike!
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Raymond on May 29, 2022, 09:04:29 am
Made a purchase:

(https://i.postimg.cc/tCpmDHSx/PICT0247.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)


No, they're not Eighteenth century duelling pistols.

The rigid footpeg mounts curb one's enthusiasm on the approach to a tight bend, so I took a look on-line to see if anybody has addressed this issue. Our hosts had these second-hand folding ones, described as needing to be painted. Proves some people are a lot fussier than me.

Apparently, Madras supplied a few Bullets with folding footpeg mounts. Perhaps for specific markets?

Also described as helpful when storing the bike. Helpful on the approach to a bend too, I'll warrant.
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Paul W on May 29, 2022, 11:18:52 am
I bought an identical pair, from the same place. I repainted them then fitted them. I should trial fitted them first because they sat at very odd angles, drooping downwards at the ends, which made my ankles hurt. I had to dismantle them and put some weld inside the join to get them to sit level. Obviously they then needed painting again….

Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: ddavidv on May 29, 2022, 12:50:43 pm
Mine came with those pivoting pegs (2007 model). I swear, Bullet pegs are made of the softest material known to man because I've had two sets and both have been bent. Unfortunately, they don't bend back easily without the application of heat.

The other issue I've found is that the rod they mount to will easily bend as well. True also for Reddich Enfields. Fortunately, H's sells replacements.
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Karl Childers on May 29, 2022, 02:12:47 pm
My bike came with them too and like Paul they don't sit level they droop and need shimming with spot weld to fix.
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Raymond on May 30, 2022, 09:14:31 am
 Yesterday, started on replacing the inner chaincase and had a surprisingly successful day considering I haven't splurged for any special tools.


(https://i.postimg.cc/HntKP4PC/PICT0251.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)


With footpeg, brake lever, outer chaincase and stator removed, realised you need to lock the engine by putting in gear and applying the rear brake. Hmm, small block of wood under the rear tyre was enough to let me remove the rotor nut. To my surprise & delight, the rotor simply pulled off by hand. Dismantled the clutch springs and plates and happily the small block of wood jammed in the primary chain was enough for me to loosen the clutch centre nut, which was not overly tight.

Wiggling the crankshaft sprocket and clutch basket found there was slight but detectable play so I felt they would not put up much of a fight. I used the clutch cap, a screw placed in the hollow gearbox shaft to protect the end, a length of sawn-off bolt that was in me box of hardware bits'n'pieces to make up the distance and when I tightened the clutch cap down the clutch basket came away easily. Drew the clutch basket, crankshaft sprocket and primary chain out together.


(https://i.postimg.cc/9QvBjw9R/PICT0250.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)


So those bits in the tray are the only 'special tools'  I've needed so far. Quit for the day while ahead. Today, explore removing the inner chaincase and then can't put off drilling into the crankcase much longer . . .


Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Adrian II on May 30, 2022, 12:31:04 pm
You've probably already thought of this, but a bit of tape around the tapping drill flutes to mark how deep to drill will help unwanted break-through

Last time I did this I found that a 10mm drill bit was a good sliding fit in the stud holes on the K/S outer cover, so with the cover held in place, a very quick spin of the 10mm drill marks the centres for the 6.8mm tapping drill clearly.

Just have to hope those 3 countersunk M8 allen screws play nicely when you try to undo them. I gather they're not particularly high-tensile items.  ;)

A.
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Raymond on May 30, 2022, 01:25:37 pm
Adrian, thank you for the tip re marking the drilling locations, also use of tape.

The three Allen screws came out no bother - tight but no hassles.


(https://i.postimg.cc/85BMPLwc/PICT0252.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)


Reassuringly filthy around the gearbox sprocket. Loving the look of the big single shorn of the starter:


(https://i.postimg.cc/mkKbv5MH/PICT0254.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Adrian II on May 30, 2022, 05:37:27 pm
Oh look, there's an engine under there!

Now is a good time, while the primary cases are off, to check the otherwise less accessible nuts on the engine mounting studs (the M8 through stud at the front of the rear engine plates as well as the 1/2" cycle thread stud under the gearbox) and make sure they're all still done up nice and tight.

Mine spat out the M8 stud the other day (fortunately in front of the garage), but a quick check revealed it had also shaken off BOTH 1/2" nuts. Their replacements arrived today, which are going to be a right s*d to fit!  ::)

A.
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Raymond on May 30, 2022, 06:56:39 pm
Now is a good time, while the primary cases are off, to check the otherwise less accessible nuts on the engine mounting studs (the M8 through stud at the front of the rear engine plates as well as the 1/2" cycle thread stud under the gearbox) and make sure they're all still done up nice and tight.

Mine spat out the M8 stud the other day (fortunately in front of the garage), but a quick check revealed it had also shaken off BOTH 1/2" nuts.

Good call! Will check all accessible mounts.

Today, progress was slow, but at least it's progress. Used your tip of drill bit through inner case to mark the locations, then dinged with a centre punch. Approached the drilling with my little wooden guide to hold the drill perpendicular. And soon found it was useless - the drill bit wanted to walk. Drill bits always want to walk. It's impossible to drill a hole that's straight and where you want it with a hand-held drill. Well, for me it is, maybe some people can.

Had a think and decided to use metal tubes held in the inner case to guide the drill. Found a threaded metal tube, part of an old XS650 turn signal mount. The tube would fit fairly snug into the chaincase, and a 6mm bit was a close fit inside the tube. Cut a short length, wrapped in masking tape to make the fit a bit tighter, used it to guide the drill. The guide is in the 3 o'clock hole, plus the rest of the threaded tube for illustrative purposes:


(https://i.postimg.cc/Y06RDY05/PICT0256.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
 

The engine post op:


(https://i.postimg.cc/4ygbcyPB/PICT0255.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)


The holes don't look very central to the casting bosses, but they're right for the new inner chaincase. Tomorrow, tap the holes, clean up, check those engine mounts, slap it back together. That at any rate is the plan.
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Adrian II on May 30, 2022, 10:05:48 pm
M8 studs in M10 holes, you have a bit of lee-way. Fortunately the casing locates at the front based on the big hole being a nice fit around the protruding bit of the crankcase casting, the plate with the seal that fits behind the clutch over the gearbox main-shaft should have helped it all line up "well enough"! The seal plate has oversize holes for the thin-headed hex screws, you can slacken them off and re-tighten if the seal plate needs to reposition itself slightly.

A.
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Raymond on May 31, 2022, 09:02:44 am
Thanks.
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Raymond on May 31, 2022, 02:00:11 pm
Three holes now tapped, cleaned up and studs fitted with a drop of loctite:


(https://i.postimg.cc/CMGNQV6T/PICT0260.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)


So glad that part is over - too much potential for it to go wrong.

Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: tooseevee on May 31, 2022, 03:48:35 pm
Three holes now tapped, cleaned up and studs fitted with a drop of loctite:

So glad that part is over - too much potential for it to go wrong.

      That's nice! Really nice  :)
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Raymond on May 31, 2022, 04:29:10 pm
Thank you, Tooseevee.

Did a test fit of the new inner chaincase


(https://i.postimg.cc/526qwfnw/PICT0261.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)


and the studs seem to be in the right places.
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Adrian II on May 31, 2022, 07:35:01 pm
That looks spot-on.  8)

A.
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Raymond on June 02, 2022, 09:05:23 am


(https://i.postimg.cc/3xSp41RR/PICT0263.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)


(https://i.postimg.cc/8cSrQnyy/PICT0264.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Karl Childers on June 02, 2022, 03:14:13 pm
A little garlic, some salt and just a touch of oregano and they'll be quite tasty!
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Raymond on June 02, 2022, 03:52:12 pm
A little garlic, some salt and just a touch of oregano and they'll be quite tasty!

Tried detergent and water and struggling but weren't getting nowhere. Tried holding peg in a vice and struggling, ditto. Looked up on-line - the correct method, so I was told, push a long narrow screwdriver down along the peg and squirt WD40 in there. Nope. Finally, put in a pot and boiled for ten minutes. A method which met with success. Pair of leather gloves, metal peg in one hand, the rubber footrest in the other, pulled apart readily, so hurried out to the garage and pushed onto the hinged peg while it was still warm.

Today, installed the new inner case, tensioner, clutch, sprocket and chain.


(https://i.postimg.cc/4NMHdFyx/PICT0268.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)


But now, wait for a clutch holder from H's - couldn't figure a work-around this time. Well, you can weld or rivet two clutch plates together BUT I don't have welding or riveting kit and new clutch plates would cost more than the tool and take the same time to arrive.
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Paul W on June 02, 2022, 04:28:12 pm
The clutch “holding tool” was the one tool I didn’t buy from Hitchcock’s when I changed the gearbox on my 350. I did buy a magneto puller, a sprocket puller and a clutch hub puller. None of these tools is particularly inexpensive for what are seldom used items, possibly once only.*

Instead, I used to keep a particular piece of aluminium in my toolbox. It was actually part of a broken side-stand clamp for a long gone bicycle. It had rounded edges and fitted perfectly between the primary chain and the clutch sprocket as a wedge. I first used it when I worked on my BSAs in my younger days. I couldn’t find it when I came to undo my Bullet’s clutch nut so I jammed a rolled up wad of heavy cloth between them instead. It worked fine.

*Annoyingly, although I definitely needed the magneto rotor puller, the engine sprocket and the clutch hub just slid off once the nuts were removed. Those tools are still unused!
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Yinzer on June 02, 2022, 06:11:35 pm
What did you decide on so far a chain tension?
I got the little bolt with the rubber tip but haven't installed it yet because I'm unsure.

I guessed at the stock setup but it might be too tight & I don't want to mess up the bearing.
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Raymond on June 03, 2022, 11:51:40 am
While I'm waiting for the clutch holding tool, decided to make a piston stop from an old spark plug:

(https://i.postimg.cc/d1Rw1W57/PICT0278.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)


The insert is a hollow threaded piece of the same XS650 turn signal holder I used as drill guide - using a hollow insert will release compression making turning the engine easier.
Potential problems include marking the piston or getting tangled up with a valve. Have rounded the end of the tool and would need to go very carefully - wait until the rotor nut is installed and use a spanner.

The idea would be one mark on the rotor plus tdc, retarded and fully advanced on the stator. Which should help with setting the timing static or use of a strobe.

Does anybody have any experience of using a piston stop or comments on why finding tdc this way is or is not a Good Idea?
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Paul W on June 03, 2022, 12:30:33 pm
I’ve never found the need for a piston stop. If I’ve needed to find TDC a hand held piece of rod or a long shanked screwdriver has always done the job.
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Paul W on June 03, 2022, 01:07:04 pm
What did you decide on so far a chain tension?
I got the little bolt with the rubber tip but haven't installed it yet because I'm unsure.

I guessed at the stock setup but it might be too tight & I don't want to mess up the bearing.

The book figure is 1/4” up/down movement, measured on the top run of the chain. I don’t see why the rubber footed type of adjuster should need any difference from that amount.
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Karl Childers on June 03, 2022, 03:06:21 pm
I have one I made from a spark plug, the plunger on mine uses a long bolt cut to length with the tip rounded. The head of the bolt remains so it can not  accidently fall into the cylinder. Life has enough challenges without that happening.
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Raymond on June 04, 2022, 02:13:52 pm
Nailed the bike back together. Haven't used the piston stop, bit worried about meeting a valve as the engine is turned over . . . but I did tackle the tappets. A most satisfying job. Pulled the bike down off the stand and out into the Jubilee sunshine.


(https://i.postimg.cc/YSVczfrf/PICT0281.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)


Felt lighter, pushing the bike around in the back yard. Been for an eight mile test run - nothing fell off, stopped working or leaked.

There is a noticeable reduction in mechanical noise - might be due to removal of starter clutch or maybe doing the tappets?


Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Adrian II on June 04, 2022, 03:25:59 pm
Tappets, I suspect.

A.
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Raymond on June 08, 2022, 10:02:37 am
The steering head is a little bit loose - just a slight 'click' felt through the bars on braking to a stop. The bike seems to handle well enough but you know how it is, if something is not quite right. Yesterday, tried to adjust, guided by Pete Snidal's book.

First, lots of fun trying to find the correct Allen key - only made progress after removed the chromed handlebar clamp and discovered that the steering clamp bolt is set at an angle, about 45°. Ahh! 5/16 AF Allen key, loosened the clamp bolt, took it right out in fact, loosened the two pinch bolts at the lower fork yoke. Tried to adjust the big nut on top of the steering head but it were so tight, could neither tighten nor loosen it. 30mm 1/2" drive socket. That was with front wheel gripped between knees.

Thought I would check from the wise and experienced people here before applying more persuasive amounts of force. Is there sommat else that needs to be loosened? Would it be best to remove the casquette to have a proper look at how it's all put together? Is removing the casquette as big a job as it appears? Enough questions for now.

Have clocked up 700 miles now, the Bullet and me getting to know each other better.
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: tooseevee on June 08, 2022, 12:03:13 pm
The steering head is a little bit loose - just a slight 'click' felt through the bars on braking to a stop.Yesterday, tried to adjust, guided by Pete Snidal's book.

 Tried to adjust the big nut on top of the steering head but it were so tight, could neither tighten nor loosen it. 30mm 1/2" drive socket. That was with front wheel gripped between knees.

           I had similar experience with my '08 AVL. I don't remember what year it was, but it's all back there in the dusty stacks somewhere.

           What I noticed was a small klunk just as I rolled the bike forward off the centerstand. It was never heard underway, but it just bugged me to hear that little klunk every time.

           I used a breaker bar (18") & had to call on SWMBO to keep the bike from rotating on the centerstand while I finally mustered my best grunt & broke it loose. The rest was easy; torque it down to 55 foot pounds, loosen, retorque to 15, button it all up. I've never heard the klunk again.

           Maybe they just tightened these as much as possible in those days & called it good. Hoo nose?  :)

           Granted, I have very low annual mileage so maybe if I rode it more I would have had to do it again, but who knows?  :)(http://)   
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Ölfield on June 08, 2022, 07:03:11 pm
Did you gave the Allen nut a short knock with a hammer after unscrew to break the wedge lose?
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Raymond on June 09, 2022, 09:07:59 am
Did you gave the Allen nut a short knock with a hammer after unscrew to break the wedge lose?

No - that sure sounds like a Good Idea. Take the bolt part way out, apply a suitable drift and give a sharp clout. Will try that next time.
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Raymond on June 09, 2022, 12:25:03 pm
Been out the garage, loosened the steering pinch blot, gave it a dunt, loosened the two fork pinch bolts, loosened the top steering nut - needed a bit of leverage! Tightened all up again. With a scissors jack under the engine, the forks swung side-to-side feel lovely and smooth.

Remove the jack, push bike to-and-fro with front brake held.The clunk is still there.

Conclusion - the steering head is fine, the clunk is coming from the brake. Overall, I'm happy. Counting it as a win on points.


Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Raymond on June 21, 2022, 08:57:36 am
Slightly odd problem.

T'other day, the indicators - turn signals in US speak? - weren't flashing. Select right and both r/h bulbs came on constant, similar for the left.

Thought about it, obviously not a blown bulb which makes the flash rate of the good bulb speed up anyway. Decided that since the problem affected both sides, it must be a faulty flasher unit. So I tested the flasher unit by taking it off, fitting a live feed to the input side, fitting a test wire with a bulb to the output side grounded to a frame bolt. The bulb flashed regularly as it should. So the flasher unit is good. Hmmm, possibly a dodgy connection, but why would the indicators light up at all?

Re-fitted the flasher unit, seat back on, go for a run and think about it later.

Except, the indicators are now working as they should.
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Paul W on June 21, 2022, 09:19:00 am
Electrics problems can be tricky, especially if intermittent. My 350 had an electrical issue last week.

I was riding the other day when the engine occasionally misfired. It felt like an electrical problem so while still on the move I checked that the run/kill switch was fully home, and it was. Out of curiosity I then selected the light switch to OFF and to my surprise the engine immediately started misfiring more. I immediately switched the lights back on again to pilot lights and the misfire stopped! This was repeatable for a while, so I decided to turn for home in case it was a “terminal” problem.

When I got near home I tried to replicate the fault without success. I later took the switch apart but couldn’t see much wrong with it. However bearing in mind I’ve previously had problems with bad soldering on the wiring I that switch I decided to buy a new one. Having fitted it the fault hasn’t recurred when I rode it next.
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: tooseevee on June 21, 2022, 11:38:56 am

Remove the jack, push bike to-and-fro with front brake held.The clunk is still there.

Conclusion - the steering head is fine, the clunk is coming from the brake. Overall, I'm happy. Counting it as a win on points.

           I'm curious if you've looked into your "clunk" any further.

          My clunk was obviously from the steering head as I could "feel" (& hear) that it was through my hands while having the front brake clamped down & horsing the front end up & down. I could tell the clunk was close to handle bar clamp.

          I'm trying to figure out what in the front brake could make a clunk with the shoes clamped against the drum.

         It's just the kind of thing that "peeks" my curiosisity  ;D
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: richard211 on June 21, 2022, 12:11:12 pm
Slightly odd problem.

T'other day, the indicators - turn signals in US speak? - weren't flashing. Select right and both r/h bulbs came on constant, similar for the left.

Thought about it, obviously not a blown bulb which makes the flash rate of the good bulb speed up anyway. Decided that since the problem affected both sides, it must be a faulty flasher unit. So I tested the flasher unit by taking it off, fitting a live feed to the input side, fitting a test wire with a bulb to the output side grounded to a frame bolt. The bulb flashed regularly as it should. So the flasher unit is good. Hmmm, possibly a dodgy connection, but why would the indicators light up at all?

Re-fitted the flasher unit, seat back on, go for a run and think about it later.

Except, the indicators are now working as they should.

 Sounds like the flasher unit fault. The contacts inside the flasher unit could be getting stuck closed. To rule out any possibility of a short circuit some where, unplug the flasher unit the next time, it happens and turn the indicators on, if the indicators turn on then is there is a power feed going into the output terminal of the flasher unit socket.

 Or if you wanted to go the unscientific way, use the handle of a screwdriver and tap the flasher unit when the indicators stay constantly lit.  :D
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Raymond on June 21, 2022, 01:43:22 pm
           I'm curious if you've looked into your "clunk" any further . . . I'm trying to figure out what in the front brake could make a clunk with the shoes clamped against the drum.       

I haven't done any further investigation - pleased to think it is not the steering head. I wonder if the brake anchor might have a smidge of play, but I've had a look and can't see any.
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Raymond on June 21, 2022, 02:12:50 pm
Sounds like the flasher unit fault. The contacts inside the flasher unit could be getting stuck closed. To rule out any possibility of a short circuit some where, unplug the flasher unit the next time, it happens and turn the indicators on, if the indicators turn on then is there is a power feed going into the output terminal of the flasher unit socket.

 Or if you wanted to go the unscientific way, use the handle of a screwdriver and tap the flasher unit when the indicators stay constantly lit.  :D

I think the test I did - see post #297 - proves the flasher unit is ok? But maybe the contacts could stick intermittently? I expect it's the original flasher unit so perhaps I'll buy a new one and substitute it if the problem comes back again.
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Paul W on June 21, 2022, 02:18:49 pm
The brake plate is prevented from rotating by an external lug. This engages on the lower fork leg. If there’s any play the plate can make a clunk, especially if the brake is held on and the bike rocked backwards and forwards. Have you ruled that out?
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Raymond on June 21, 2022, 06:08:41 pm
The brake plate is prevented from rotating by an external lug. This engages on the lower fork leg. If there’s any play the plate can make a clunk, especially if the brake is held on and the bike rocked backwards and forwards. Have you ruled that out?

That's what I meant at post #301 - have definitely not ruled that out. I can't see any gap but have not been able to take a close look in that area while also rocking the bike.

Main this is, I'm happy that the steering bearings feel good so not losing any sleep about why the brake is giving a clunk. It doesn't do it on coming to a stop, for example at junctions, which I have found on other bikes to be a sure sign the steering head needs attention.
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Yinzer on June 22, 2022, 03:30:49 am
The brake plate is prevented from rotating by an external lug.

While we're talking about that area, that cone nut that secures the brake plate keeps coming loose on Dad's bike. (about 1/2 turn)
How do you prevent that?...Blue Loctite?
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Raymond on June 22, 2022, 07:20:59 am
While we're talking about that area, that cone nut that secures the brake plate keeps coming loose on Dad's bike. (about 1/2 turn)
How do you prevent that?...Blue Loctite?
Ah, that's one for me to check - thanks Yinzer!
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Paul W on June 22, 2022, 10:08:07 am
I don’t actually worry too much about the nut being torqued up hard. It doesn’t seem to reduce the efficiency of the brake (which can lock the front wheel on my bike) and it can’t come unwound very far because it’s trapped by the fork leg. It might be that allowing the plate to float slightly allows better shoe/drum contact.

No doubt someone will tell me I’m risking life and limb….  ::)
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Seipgam on June 22, 2022, 10:27:46 am
My front brake backing plate has a small amount of play where it seats in the fork leg to stop it turning.
This presented to me as free play in the steering head, but on further investigation this is what I found.

Geoff.
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Raymond on June 22, 2022, 03:50:59 pm
My front brake backing plate has a small amount of play where it seats in the fork leg to stop it turning.
This presented to me as free play in the steering head, but on further investigation this is what I found.

Geoff.
Thank you, Geoff, mine seems to be the same.

Today, one of the mudguard stays sheared. I have an engineer in Galashiels making up an extra bracket to fit between the shock mounts and provide additional support. But clearly the silly stay could not, uhm, stay the course.
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Adrian II on June 22, 2022, 07:20:28 pm
I see what you did, there.

A.
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Raymond on July 04, 2022, 06:14:20 pm
The answer seems to be the trials bike subframe, bought one from our hosts and today been trying it out with the Deluxe mudguard:

(https://i.postimg.cc/0jf3vXdW/PICT0358.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)


There's a huge gap, so filled it with couple lengths of ally tube:

(https://i.postimg.cc/qqbLQPGT/PICT0360.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)


I don't think the subframe spoils the lines of the bike and it's got to be a helluva lot better than what was on before. Just waiting for some new hardware now to get 'er finished.
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Mr_84 on July 05, 2022, 06:02:47 am
Damn Raymond your bike always looks so very clean in your photos, must be all that shiny chrome . Nice job.
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Raymond on July 06, 2022, 11:19:15 am
Thank you Mr 84 - must be the chrome, no special effort I put in.

Lock nuts on order for the 3/8" top suspension bolts not here yet. So today, rode the XS650 over the JD Falla Agricultural Engineers and able to buy four plain nuts. 'That will be 24 pence, Sir' said the man. 'Good Grief!' said I handing him a £1 coin, 'Just stick the change in the tin.'

Able to finish mounting the mudguard with the Trials rear frame loop and pleased to find the tail light and number plate will still fit.

So the Bullet, often referred to as the Museum Piece, is now back in one lump. Uhm, one shiny lump.

(https://i.postimg.cc/qqFDtBqg/PICT0363.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Raymond on July 07, 2022, 02:53:53 pm
Took the bike for a proving trip today. Went to see friends in Northumberland - 110 mile round trip.

Far enough to feel uncomfortable - that saddle looks neat but there ain't any padding. The riding position starts to feel awkward, the ends of the handlebar are angled just a smidge too far back so maybe I'll change the bars, possibly try the Suzuki Bandit bars sitting on a shelf. The bike performed fine, nothing broke or fell off, but there is a bit of oil spattered on the the front and right side of the engine. Not a lot, and I think it may be coming from the tappet cover or the oil pipe unions?

(https://i.postimg.cc/fL7mCzZq/PICT0366.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)


Not really a worry, the amount of oil lost is very small and the leak is not bad enough for the bike to mark its spot.

I've done nearly a thousand miles on the Enfield so it's probably time to start thinking about an oil change. When I do that, probably change the copper washers on the oil pipes and see if that fixes it.


Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: AzCal Retred on July 07, 2022, 03:23:48 pm
I thought they all did that as protection against road grit damage & salt...  :o

Beautiful bike Raymond - good to see you out having fun on the old girl! - ACR -
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Karl Childers on July 07, 2022, 03:58:18 pm
I had leaks around where my oil lines fed the rocker boxes. On on close inspection I found poor machining on both the head and the banjos for the oil lines that would not let the two interface tightly. Some careful work with a file fixed the problem, The head just had casting slag around the sealing surface, the banjos needed work below the circular portion to make them protrude less than the sealing area. The parts now would probably seal with a single copper washer but I doubled up on mine just to be sure. The top end at least for the moment is leak free.
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: ddavidv on July 08, 2022, 01:08:58 pm
Tappet cover leaks on mine. One of the many things I've elected to find 'charming'.
The copper washers can be reused with a simple annealing process. Heat with portable torch, then cool.
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Raymond on July 11, 2022, 12:27:16 pm
Today, doing an oil change service. Had a closer look at where the oil is coming from - might not be the oil lines at all, now thinking it's the inlet rocker box, the tappet cover and perhaps the cylinder head joint. Hope it's not the last of those as much more work required.

Hmmm. Dilemma - fill with new oil and see how bad the leak becomes or remove tank and rocker boxes and put new gaskets. I know what the correct answer to that question is.
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Paul W on July 11, 2022, 03:35:31 pm
My 350 leaked oil from the head joint when I changed to a solid copper gasket, despite it being properly annealed. I dismantled it all, re-annealed the gasket and tried again. It still leaked!

I reverted to a composite gasket, as per the type the bike came with from the factory and it’s not leaked since.
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Raymond on July 11, 2022, 04:43:31 pm
Maybe I'm just lazy? It's beautiful weather right now, which we don't get for much of the year in Scotland, so I nailed the bike back together, put some oil in and went off for a run to check the oil level.

Will put some time aside later this year to take a look at the top end - rocker box gaskets, check the cylinder head bolts, see what I can do withe the tappet cover, that sort of thing.
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Raymond on July 13, 2022, 06:27:35 pm
Time for another silly question. I have tried using the search function but can't find anything that helps.

How do I adjust the headlamp on my Bullet? I feel that the dipped beam is aiming to high. Nobody has flashed me, but the light seems to reflect off road signs. Apart from the securing screw at the top of the headlamp surround, I can't see any more screws. Took the headlamp out and there's just spring clips holding the lamp unit in the ring.

Help please!
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: AzCal Retred on July 13, 2022, 08:09:55 pm
The USA spec 5 3/4" sealed beams have holes & adjusters at 9 & 6 o'clock. I don't think the 7" upgrades have any adjustment provision. Maybe "once upon a tyme" they were all originally in a separate standoff shell arrangement, and the "pretty lamp" internals got brought forward to live in the "new" casquette?

Anyhoo - y'all don't need to be bombing around at night, and what headlight you do have will get the attention of cage drivers way better than my 35/35 watt 5 3/4" sealed beam.  ;D
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Raymond on July 14, 2022, 08:06:08 am
Thank you AzCal, if I have understood you correctly, there might not be any adjustment for beam height.

The potential problem is the annual MOT test. Beam height is one of the things they check. If it's too high, and depending on your relationship with the tester, they will usually adjust it for you and give a Pass. But no adjustment would mean no pass. And the bike would then be unroadworthy and uninsured.
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: richard211 on July 14, 2022, 09:03:06 am
I have not come across the 7 inch headlight with an adjustable reflector. The only other thing I can think off that could cause an issue is if the headlight reflector is not correctly orientated. 
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Paul W on July 14, 2022, 09:45:30 am
I fitted shorter rear shocks, which had the unwanted side effect of raising the headlight beam.

There is no official way of compensating for that but I did find that it is possible to adjust the headlight shell very slightly by loosening the screws on the shell and moving the assembly slightly forwards at the top.
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Raymond on July 14, 2022, 11:22:02 am
We're not talking about a problem here but just the normal ability to adjust the headlamp. Here's my XS650:

(https://i.postimg.cc/bv8tW0tD/PICT0394.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

The crosshead bolt above the lower yoke gives adjustment up and down and the smaller screw in the chrome rim gives lateral adjustment. I think probably every bike I have owned has provided headlamp adjustment. And it has been quite usual for the MOT tester to adjust to give the correct beam pattern - they use a headlamp beam measuring machine to check the pattern and ensure your dipped beam won't dazzle other traffic.

I'm now worried that the beam might fail and there's nowt to be done about it . . .
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: AzCal Retred on July 14, 2022, 03:25:10 pm
How about opening up the rim retaining screw holes and using some larger decorative stainless/brass washers to allow some movement? Another strategy might be to fit up softer fork springs, or tap the fork caps for air fittings to allow you to pull a suction on the forks and slightly compress them, sort of the opposite of what air forks are normally used for. A "MityVac" or similar tool would provide plenty of suction to do this. Even a pair of longer shocks temporarily fitted up might get you where you need to be.

The casquette limits what can be done. A regular headlight shell as you say would make up/down easy. But maybe the MoT isn't that persnickety...?
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Adrian II on July 14, 2022, 04:26:46 pm
There is some limited adjustment available where the inner headlamp rim fits onto the casquette - not a huge amount, I think that is what Paul W was describing. Owners of certain BSA and Triumphs models fitted with nacelle headlamps will have experienced similar problems. Unfortunately functionality fell victim to naff design.

You will not be surprised to learn that I junked the nacelle on my old BSA 250, and have since dumped this POS from a number of Royal Enfields too.

Next stop, recycling center. YES!  8)

(https://i.postimg.cc/YSPMLZ1D/DSCF8848.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

Quote
I'm now worried that the beam might fail and there's nowt to be done about it . . .

Au contraire, Raymond! While I've never heard of mass Bullet MOT failures on this score, If you don't object to a further contribution to Mr H's retirement fund, this sort of thing would suit your Bullet splendidly.

(https://i.postimg.cc/BvCX7Q9g/DSCN1514.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

(https://i.postimg.cc/DmVvyt30/DSCN1513.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

Another option is a set of RE AVL Thunderbird fork yokes/triple tree and headlamp brackets (possibly Lightning, depending on what type of steering stops your frame has, ISTRC 2003 was about when they changed).

https://accessories.hitchcocksmotorcycles.com/accessory-shop/front-forks/18923

(https://accessories.hitchcocksmotorcycles.com/92605-FIT.jpg)

Not a cheap conversion, though you might be able to get the bits cheaper from India with the right part numbers. Add the Lucas headlamp of your choice, come up with a neat speedometer mount and done.

A.
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Raymond on July 14, 2022, 04:56:49 pm
Thank you All for the various suggestions. AzCal, I'm afraid the MOT is indeed that pernickety. The place I go for the test, I have taken an average of three bikes there for the past seventeen years, so that's fifty visits and by now we know each other well. The two chaps that do the test are firm but fair.  They have very rarely sent me away with a fail. Did once with a brake light that would not illuminate on the day - I managed to come up with a solution that worked and presented the bike within seven days for a free re-test.

They have adjusted too-high dipped beams several times. They commented once or twice that dipped beam was too low, but that's not a fail and the tester said it probably reaches the correct level with a pillion on board.

I don't get out at nights much these days. Well, not on a motorbike. But if I put that argument forward, I know they would point to the Day-time Only MOT certificate, which I think requires the lights to be removed or disabled?

Adrian's solution would be the most practical way ahead. Allows the usual type of beam adjustment.

Since posting earlier, found this video from India

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vi8dkBFvf3Y

- the chap removes the spring clips that secure the sealed beam unit, places a packing piece inside the lower edge of the rim, and puts the clips back. Low tech but might be a workable solution . . .
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: AzCal Retred on July 14, 2022, 05:47:09 pm
Plan "C" ( or Plan 9... ;D) might be to acquire the USA 5 3/4" set up and an "English" (LH dip?) 35W sealed beam. Get thru MOT and then do as you will for another year. At least the beam would be adjustable. Likely there's an unused/unwanted spare set up on a shelf somewhere, maybe for free. 3 screws & you're done.
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Adrian II on July 15, 2022, 02:27:14 am
You could always look on a Triumph owners' forum to see how they cope with nacelle headlamp adjustment.

If you DO cough up a tidy sum for the separate headlamp conversion, don't do what I did on one of my bikes and fit nylon spacers on the headlamp bolts between the headlamp shell and the the headlamp brackets. The nylon would always compress slightly on tightening up the bolts, result, the headlamp was all too adjustable as the engine vibes set to work and the thing would be starting to point upwards after a depressingly short period. Said headlamp now has metal spacers like it should have had to start with.

A.
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Raymond on July 17, 2022, 04:33:40 pm
For some reason, I know not why, the bike has become a bit 'stally' since yesterday. Today, stalled at a country junction with a car behind me, later same trip, stalled at the traffic lights in Hawick and stalled again when we got home. Took a look at the spark plug which seemed a good colour but had some mostly light brown deposit, so I put a new plug in and on a short test run, it seems better.

I haven't changed anything since I fiddled with the carb many miles ago. Are they prone to mussing plugs up? Is that enough to make the bike stall?
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Adrian II on July 17, 2022, 04:54:41 pm
There have been reports of duff/fake NGK plugs. Nowadays I use Champion after tooseevee swapped to them.

N4C for a standard-ish 500 Bullet, I think, RN4C if you have a non-suppressor spark plug cap.

A.
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Paul W on July 18, 2022, 01:58:48 pm
My 350 is far less fussy at idle since I fitted an NGK Iridium plug. The business end of the centre electrode is thinner than the more traditional types so it presumably runs hotter and stays cleaner.
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Raymond on July 19, 2022, 02:31:23 pm
Didn't occur to me it might be a duff NGK but I've ordered a Champion.

Yesterday, moved the needle back down. During the period early in our acquaintance when the bike just would not keep running, I moved the clip down one from middle notch to give a richer mixture. After the recent stalliness, decided that maybe the original position it was correct after all, so moved the clip back to middle notch.

The test run seemed to give mixed messages - in some engine conditions, the engine picked up better, giving a little bit of throttle to accelerate along a straight. But in other conditions, if I let the engine get too slow, the engine would die and I only saved it a couple of times by whipping the clutch out, adding a few revs and feeding it back in gently.

Will take a look at the plug. Though I am less clear what the plug is trying to tell me with modern fuels.
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Raymond on July 21, 2022, 09:27:13 am
A bit 'stally' got worse yesterday. Rode to Galashiels, kept a few revs to avoid stalling, no problem. But when I left the supermarket, the Bullet stalled in about the busiest part of Gala. Re-started first kick, but stalled as soon as I tried to move off. Repeat. Then, backfired and would not start. Ahem, pretty soon saw why - the carb had been blown right off, hanging by the throttle cable. I've heard of the carb being blown off a bike but never seen it before.

Re-fitted the carb, it blew off again with my next kick. Three times in all.

Replaced the narrow clip with a Jubilee clip, whacked it up tight, started the engine, kept the tick-over high and managed to ride home.

My question now is, why did the carb blow off? I'm thinking that the recent stalling and the carb blowing off are related and might be due to timing. One suggestion has been put to me that the advance mechanism might be stuck on full advance and that on kick starting, the mixture is being ignited so early that the piston is being sent backwards leading to combustion pressure exiting through the carb. This does sound logical and would probably account for stalling at low revs.

Any thoughts on why the carb is being blown off? Timing stuck on advance? Timing too retarded?
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Paul W on July 21, 2022, 01:31:56 pm
Might also be that the inlet valve clearance is too tight, holding the valve off its seat.

Might also be too weak an idle mixture.
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: AzCal Retred on July 21, 2022, 02:42:18 pm
All those things are easy to check. Valves especially. Too tight will affect idle/starting, a bit loose just makes some noise.

The point advance mechanism you can tell by rotating with your fingers if it's turning freely and returns to rest predictably.

The rubber attaching the carb to the spigot was a trouble spot for me until I tossed the OEM kak rubber one and replaced it with a bit of fiber reinforced radiator hose, 1 1/4" diameter by 1 3/8" long. That and two REAL hose clamps put paid to air leaks, cracking & sagging off.

Unless your carb sucked up water, or dirt, or a jet fell out, or the top has unscrewed itself and is leaking air, it should be good - too simple to die!  ;D
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Seipgam on July 23, 2022, 06:54:26 am
I’d suggest a timing issue.
Mine runs a Boyer MkIV but
kept having starting issues and blowing the carby off as you have experienced.
Finally set the timing up correctly and found it was set about 8deg too advanced. I now have no kickback when starting at all.

Geoff.
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Raymond on July 23, 2022, 10:37:56 am
Thank you for all the suggestions. I've checked the valves - both tappets turn freely, still feel same as I adjusted them. The advance mech turns and seems to snap back as it should but I've bought new return springs from H's. Also bought new points and condenser. Oh, and a UK made throttle cable - the one on the bike looks like it's the original, which will be twenty years old.

Already 'upgraded' the intake to radiator hose but now I'll fit two proper hose clips.

Going to wash the carb and hopefully clear out any muck that might be causing probs in the pilot system. Wish I had compressed air . . .

But I'm not happy with trying to establish tdc using the tool

(https://i.postimg.cc/jSDxs8LR/PICT0400.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

The scale is too small for me to read it, plus the engine won't sit at tdc - bike in gear, turning the rear wheel, I can nudge in small increments till I think that's just about the top, then the engine rolls forward too far.

So I'm thinking I need to pull the head off, pull the primary cover off, turn the engine with socket or spanner till I can see when it's at tdc, then put marks on the rotor/stator for tdc, 10°, 32°. Which can then be used for static or strobe timing.

Seems like a lot of work just to set the timing. Am I making a meal out of this?


Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: tooseevee on July 23, 2022, 12:33:36 pm

But I'm not happy with trying to establish tdc using the tool

(https://i.postimg.cc/jSDxs8LR/PICT0400.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

The scale is too small for me to read it, plus the engine won't sit at tdc - bike in gear, turning the rear wheel, I can nudge in small increments till I think that's just about the top, then the engine rolls forward too far.

Seems like a lot of work just to set the timing. Am I making a meal out of this?

           I bought one of those way long ago (2011 or 12?) from CMW on sale $3.

           What I found first off is that you have to be very careful as the particular angle the movable rod meets the top of the piston at can make it jam up. It also might be a bit too tight a fit to relieve sufficient compression pressure to prevent that "rollover" that is so frustrating.

           In my case it was worse because of 9.8:1 compression & stronger beehive valve springs that would contribute to that maddening rollover past TDC.

           My TDC Tool ended up on a shelf collecting cobwebs replaced by a piece of 1/4" wooden dowel with lines on it drawn with a Sharpy Magic Marker. The lines are only to show movement; they don't measure anything. You just want to find that "sweet area" where there is NO movement as you move the rear wheel back & forth & you're good to go. 

            That's my story & I'm stickin' to it  :)[/img]
           
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Raymond on July 23, 2022, 03:37:20 pm
Thank you, tooseevee. Have saved meself the trouble of pulling the head. With the primary cover off, it was a lot easier to turn and hold the engine with a 1" socket on the crankshaft. With a lot of squinting at the tdc tool and fiddling to-and-fro, decided I have Top Dead Centre close enough. Marked the rotor and stator with blobs of white paint:


(https://i.postimg.cc/GmZkTJHC/PICT0403.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)


Put a bit of masking tape across and painted the tdc mark, then calculated the offset for 10° and 32°.

It is all a bit approximate, after all those blobs must be about 1½° wide. But should give me sommat to work with for setting the timing, now and in the future. If the paint stays put.

Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: tooseevee on July 23, 2022, 05:19:37 pm
Thank you, tooseevee. Have saved meself the trouble of pulling the head. With the primary cover off, it was a lot easier to turn and hold the engine with a 1" socket on the crankshaft. With a lot of squinting at the tdc tool and fiddling to-and-fro, decided I have Top Dead Centre close enough. Marked the rotor and stator with blobs of white paint:


           You're right. WAY easier.

           I built my last harley with open belt primary (3" Primo). I could set my crank position & timing (full advance) in a matter of minutes with an Accu-Timer on the points cam shaft.

           You could use your marks AND a piece of dowel. You'd be right on then; easily  :)
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Raymond on July 27, 2022, 02:24:39 pm
Nailed it all back together. I believe the timing is correct. Fitted the new throttle cable too.

But when I started the engine, revs immediately began to soar. Pulled the decomp and it continued to run. Had to switch the ignition off.

First thoughts were insufficient play in the throttle cable - pulled air filter off and had a look, the slide seems to move fully down. But same result on starting. I have even had the tank off and re-routed the throttle cable to make sure it is moving freely, but again on starting, the revs start to rocket skywards.

What have I dun wrong?
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Paul W on July 27, 2022, 02:39:44 pm
For a start I’d take the top off the carburettor and check the air slide is properly orientated and fully closing. I’d also check that the throttle cable is fully seated at both ends and not binding.
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Adrian II on July 27, 2022, 02:47:55 pm
+1 to that.

Last time I had that problem on my old Electra-X it was due to a mid-cable adjuster snagging on something. Assuming a correctly fitted slide, make sure the it goes allthe way down to its stop, if you wind the throttle open then let go, the return spring should cause it to snap shut with an audible "clack". Also check the outer cable is seated properly in both the carb top adjuster and the twistgrip assembly, and there's not a damaged outer somewhere along the cable length which is causing it to rub against the inner and bind.

A.
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: tooseevee on July 27, 2022, 04:17:08 pm
+1 to that.

Last time I had that problem on my old Electra-X it was due to a mid-cable adjuster snagging on something. Assuming a correctly fitted slide, make sure the it goes allthe way down to its stop, if you wind the throttle open then let go, the return spring should cause it to snap shut with an audible "clack". Also check the outer cable is seated properly in both the carb top adjuster and the twistgrip assembly, and there's not a damaged outer somewhere along the cable length which is causing it to rub against the inner and bind.

A.

    Another thing that can happen is that that ferrule that the throttle cable outer housing fits into on the hand grip part of the mechanism gets dropped on the floor unnoticed & the throttle cable outer housing can get caught on the lip of the hole that the ferrule is supposed to be in (but it's on the floor). This can cause the engine to start with its volume knob at 11.

    Just guessin' here :)(http://)   
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Arvind96 on July 27, 2022, 04:59:19 pm
Hi All! Just wanted to introduce myself. I am from West Michigan and now own a 2006 RE 500.  ;D
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: AzCal Retred on July 27, 2022, 05:33:41 pm
Very nice - it has the 5-speed as well - good choice!  :)
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Arvind96 on July 27, 2022, 07:10:16 pm
Yup! I love it. I had a hand me down 2004 RE350 in Chennai before I came here. Right hand geared 4 speed, so next summer's project could be the conversion.  :)
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: AzCal Retred on July 27, 2022, 07:19:37 pm
I have the electric start version, converted to RH shift. Fun bike - you just can't be in a in a hurry to get somewhere!  :o ;D
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Raymond on July 28, 2022, 11:38:53 am
Further update. When I re-routed the throttle cable, it seemed free and closing the throttle you could hear the slide bottoming.

But today, took a look:

(https://i.postimg.cc/2ykpfKKs/PICT0407.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

and as you can see, cable has jumped out of the adjuster at top of carb. There should be a rubber cap, but on my bike was a perished vestige which did nowt.

Course of action - tank off, re-route the cable again, consider jury rig with plastic tube and insulating tape. But I have been thinking about buying a saddle from H's so I'll add the rubber cap to that order.
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Adrian II on July 28, 2022, 11:53:21 am
Hi All! Just wanted to introduce myself. I am from West Michigan and now own a 2006 RE 500.  ;D

Just in case there's any confusion, this thread isn't for ALL new members, it was just how Raymond chose to introduce himself and HIS bike. Your intro should probably be in its own thread/topic rather than have one thread trying to deal with two bikes as the result of what I suspect was an unintentional thread hijack.

I'm not trying to be mean, I hope you enjoy the forum!

A.
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: tooseevee on July 28, 2022, 12:41:44 pm
Further update. When I re-routed the throttle cable, it seemed free and closing the throttle you could hear the slide bottoming.

But today, took a look:

(https://i.postimg.cc/2ykpfKKs/PICT0407.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

and as you can see, cable has jumped out of the adjuster at top of carb. There should be a rubber cap, but on my bike was a perished vestige which did nowt.

Course of action - tank off, re-route the cable again, consider jury rig with plastic tube and insulating tape. But I have been thinking about buying a saddle from H's so I'll add the rubber cap to that order.

            You are missing the 45 degree metal tube that should be on the top of that carb with the cable housing fitting into it. The way that inner cable bends going into the top is NOT good. It will be a constant problem that won't be fixed by the rubber dirt/water cap.

             The tubes (straight, 45 & 90) are available from various places (Hitchcocks, SUDCO).
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Raymond on July 28, 2022, 01:11:59 pm
            You are missing the 45 degree metal tube that should be on the top of that carb with the cable housing fitting into it. The way that inner cable bends going into the top is NOT good. It will be a constant problem that won't be fixed by the rubber dirt/water cap.

             The tubes (straight, 45 & 90) are available from various places (Hitchcocks, SUDCO).

That is interesting and makes a lot of sense but I cannot find this tube on the Hitchcocks parts book. When I take a look at the carb, I'll see if I have anything in my odds-n-sods box that might be pressed into service.

I routed the cable below the frame tube to avoid pinching by the tank, but that brings it to the carb at a low angle. Might route it above the frame tube for a better approach.
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: tooseevee on July 28, 2022, 01:48:41 pm
That is interesting and makes a lot of sense but I cannot find this tube on the Hitchcocks parts book. When I take a look at the carb, I'll see if I have anything in my odds-n-sods box that might be pressed into service.

I routed the cable below the frame tube to avoid pinching by the tank, but that brings it to the carb at a low angle. Might route it above the frame tube for a better approach.

        I hope the link below helps you to find the correct elbow. I don't know the model of your carb.

https://www.google.com/search?q=motorcycle+carb+throttle+cable+elbow+tubes&client=firefox-b-1-d&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiXmt2azpv5AhXTjIkEHW1_Bd4Q_AUoAnoECAEQBA&biw=1078&bih=535&dpr=1.5
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Raymond on July 29, 2022, 01:15:54 pm
Hitchcocks don't list that elbow and I'm not sure if it would be compatible with the cable I have. If it extends the effective length of the outer, might not be able to get any free play?

But anyway, this morning took the tank off again, several times in fact, re-routed the throttle cable, several times in fact, each time the tank went back on evaluated the throttle movement to ensure the slide snaps fully down. My reward was when I was happy with that, the bike started and the revs did not race.

I have the throttle stop a bit too far out and the tick-over was dropping too far, but I can try to optimise the tick-over later. Meanwhile, went for a short test ride just to the next village and back.

Very pleased, the bike seems to be running better than ever.
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Adrian II on July 29, 2022, 02:57:02 pm
Dell'Orto UK has these angled ferrules if you do ever need one. I use a finger sander to trim back the end of the outer cable (carefully!) to compensate. Grind through the top of the outer cable and all the little steel coils drop off. The trick is, of course, NOT to catch the inner cable in the process. If there's a nylon sleeve inside the outer cable, that is a big help.

A.
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: richard211 on July 29, 2022, 03:16:28 pm
Further update. When I re-routed the throttle cable, it seemed free and closing the throttle you could hear the slide bottoming.

But today, took a look:

(https://i.postimg.cc/2ykpfKKs/PICT0407.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

and as you can see, cable has jumped out of the adjuster at top of carb. There should be a rubber cap, but on my bike was a perished vestige which did nowt.

Course of action - tank off, re-route the cable again, consider jury rig with plastic tube and insulating tape. But I have been thinking about buying a saddle from H's so I'll add the rubber cap to that order.



 It looks like there is too much slack in the throttle cable. I think trying out a different throttle cable would be a better option. The are universal throttle cables that would thread into the handlebar switch that you have and the other end would be a direct fit for the VM style carburettor. There is also an adjuster near the handle bar switch that could be adjusted to remove the excessive slack. I usually run the throttle cable along the top tube and cable tie it to the frame so that way it has a small radius when it goes into carburettor adjuster nut. When the slack is taken out of the throttle cable, the outer sleeve does not pop out of the adjuster nut on the top of carburettor.
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Raymond on July 29, 2022, 06:22:10 pm
The throttle cable I bought does not have adjustment

(https://i.postimg.cc/d02HP2dC/143322-A-1200.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)post picture (https://postimages.org/)

so the only adjustment is the brass ferrule at the top of the carb.

I have changed the routing since the photograph was taken. The cable now passes through the casquette, exiting lower left, heading up above the frame top tube where it is held by cable ties until a few inches from the carb. Earlier, when the photo was taken, the length was about right with just a little bit of slack, but because the tank impinged on the cable movement was not free enough and opening then releasing the throttle could cause the cable to jump out of the carb. An elbow to secure this area would be a big help.

Might speak to H's for their advice.

Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: AzCal Retred on July 29, 2022, 07:41:24 pm
A nice home workshop skill is to make your own cables. I was amazed to find multiple suppliers for all the little bits, ferrules, cable ends, etc. online, although I shouldn't have been. The lack of 90 elbow fittings right off of the carb and throttle grip has always disappointed me after a lifetime of such cable routing niceties on virtually every Japanese machine I've ever had. Lots of online videos. The proper steel flux seems to be the key. It "hain't rockit surgery" and you get a custom fit.
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Adrian II on July 29, 2022, 10:29:57 pm
If making your own cables DOES appeal, try here.

https://www.venhill.co.uk/cables-and-components/motorcycle-cables.html

Note there is this for the home team.

https://www.venhillusa.com/

A.
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Raymond on July 30, 2022, 08:57:59 am
It's a thought!
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Paul W on July 30, 2022, 09:56:13 am
I’d consider tie wrapping a short length of 6mm i.d. rubber fuel tubing over the adjuster in the carb top and the end of the cable. It will allow the cable to bend but will prevent the cable jumping out of the adjuster.
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Tao_RE on August 01, 2022, 06:13:50 pm
Hi,
My name is Gary I live in Glasgow, Scotland.
I have a 93 500 Bullet.
I would like to say hello to my fellow sufferers of Enfieldits, hopefully we can help and share stories that might help in this terrible affliction we have for these peerless
Motorcycles.

Regards

Gary.

//
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: tooseevee on August 01, 2022, 07:22:26 pm
I’d consider tie wrapping a short length of 6mm i.d. rubber fuel tubing over the adjuster in the carb top and the end of the cable. It will allow the cable to bend but will prevent the cable jumping out of the adjuster.

          GrrrRate idea!   :)(http://)
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Raymond on August 06, 2022, 06:34:44 pm
I have the replacement rubber cap on top of the carb. With throttle cable re-routed, and the cap, throttle now closes.

But the bike won't start. Over the past few days I have stripped the carb, taken out pilot and main jets and the emulsion tube and cleaned them, checked that there is adequate fuel flow, checked the timing using my rotor marks - test lamp comes on at 10 degrees BTDC, checked the coil resistance - 3.5 ohms primary and 7,600 primary to secondary, checked the mixture screw, 1 1/2 turns out, checked the spark using a spark gap tester. It only gave a visible spark when I closed the gap down to 2.5 mm. So I have fitted a new coil and now have a spark that crosses 4.5 mm on the spark tester. Compression seems to be good, I haven't measured it but you could stand on the kick lever.

And it still won't start.

What am I missing?
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: AzCal Retred on August 06, 2022, 07:15:46 pm
Try some ether/starting fluid. If it pops & runs, it's still the carb pilot circuit. If still "no workee", the spark is AWOL.

By the way - you didn't accidentally push the absurd kill switch toggle button to "OFF", did you. That'll make a difference...don't ask... ::)
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Karl Childers on August 06, 2022, 11:53:07 pm
By the way - you didn't accidentally push the absurd kill switch toggle button to "OFF", did you. That'll make a difference...don't ask... ::)

Been there done that!
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Raymond on August 07, 2022, 09:36:41 am
We've all done that.

Remember once, chap disembarked from the Sandbanks ferry with a Honda GB500 single. I was interested in the bike, so wandered over for a look. But unfortunately he was having no luck starting it, getting more and more annoyed. Till I asked him about the kill switch . . .

No, I have checked that. Today, going to play with my new ultrasonic cleaner. Dismantle the carb and give it a warm spa bath in carb cleaner fluid with ultrasonic waves to loosen the grime.
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: tooseevee on August 07, 2022, 12:09:30 pm
Try some ether/starting fluid. If it pops & runs, it's still the carb pilot circuit. If still "no workee", the spark is AWOL.

By the way - you didn't accidentally push the absurd kill switch toggle button to "OFF", did you. That'll make a difference...don't ask... ::)

           I've avoided that embarrassing problem my whole riding life by never using the kill switch to shut a bike down. The one time I might have used the kill switch, I could not reach it. The bike had my whole right leg trapped under the two exhaust pipes. Luckily my ignition switch was down on the frame where my right hand would naturally reach it when sitting on the bike. So I managed to reach it & shut the cussed thing down with the key.

           My right leg was burned, but not badly. It was a late Fall fall (on wet grass) & I wore leather chaps in those days against the cold.

           The kill switch grew out of the kill lanyard used on hill climbers back in the "olden days" as my twin granddaughters call the years of my misspent youth  :) :)(http://)
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: ddavidv on August 07, 2022, 12:23:02 pm
Is your battery in good order? This season mine wouldn't start. It always starts, one or two kicks. I checked all sorts of things until I found the coil didn't get enough voltage to fire. The battery had some charge, but not enough. New battery sorted it instantly.
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: richard211 on August 07, 2022, 12:55:36 pm
Whenever I suspect a fuel related starting issue, I remove the spark plug and add a little bit of fuel into the cylinder, put the spark plug back in, bring the engine to compression, switch the ignition on, kick the engine over to get it started. Do not try this if the ignition timing is out, it hurts a lot if it kicks back.

 I have never had much consistency when tuning the RE VM carburettors, they all reacted differently when adjusting the air fuel mixture screw.  A good upgrade is going to the BS29 / CV style carburettor, the engine starts up straight away and is very consistent in the way it performs. It just works.
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Raymond on August 07, 2022, 02:29:57 pm
Gentlemen, thank you All for your good suggestions.

Today I adopted AzCal's idea - filter off, squirt of carb cleaner. Started first kick and ran very well for a few seconds. Did it a second time with the same results. Concluded that the carb is the problem. Have dismantled the carb, given it an ultrasonic bath, re-assembled. Bike still won't start.

Now my theory is that I didn't get the carb dry enough before re-assembly, possibly some water in the internal passages, so I've taken it off again. It's at times like this that I wish I had a supply of compressed air . . .

I think the battery is in good condition, but will go and check.

But for today, I've had enough. Leg tired of kicking, running out of ideas.
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Karl Childers on August 07, 2022, 03:19:50 pm
I recently put one of these on my Bullet, comes with everything you need including extra jets. This Japanese made Mikuni is a quality carb at what I consider to be a good price for all you get.

  https://www.amazon.com/Carburetor-2000-Later-Niche-Cycle-Supply/dp/B06XQ6TT3R
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: AzCal Retred on August 07, 2022, 04:02:36 pm
WD40 or Carb Clean spray works well to blow out water, swarf & dirt. It's clean & dry, poor man's compressed air! :o ;D Watch your eyeballs, the blowback is "zingy" and likely hard on your eyeglass coatings.

Mikuni is top drawer stuff, can't really go wrong there. H's also carry a sorted, pre-jetted unit $$$.

The MikCarb works well enough, if it worked before it'll work again. Back blow all the passages with ALL the jets out, check the emulsion tubes on the side of the needle jet are clear, make SURE you can see thru the pilot jet. A strand of copper wire makes a good drill if you need to auger thru some gunk. Back blow the air passages from the air screw and their entry into the slide area. If it's clean it has to work.

Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Paul W on August 07, 2022, 05:30:04 pm
I now use the kill switch as part of my normal kick starting procedure so don’t catch myself out…..often. The bike now has a concentric carb, without a choke fitted.

From cold, I turn on the fuel, allow the carb to fill, then use the tickler until some fuel appears. I turn the ignition key on, but switch off the kill switch. I then bring the engine twice over compression with the throttle slightly open and the decompressor pulled. This ensures the cylinder is purged. Next, I then release the decompressor lever and find compression. Pulling the decompressor again I ease it just over TDC.

To actually start it, I then release the decompressor lever again, flick on the kill switch with my thumb and give it a good long swing.

It normally goes first kick doing it that way and because it’s over TDC it can’t backfire. If it’s warm it doesn’t need a tickle.

If it doesn’t run, it’s probably in need of a slight “tickle” because it’s cooled down.

The worst thing is to over prime it, it can then take quite a few kicks to purge it.
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Raymond on August 07, 2022, 06:33:50 pm
Said I would check the battery - 12.68V showing. That would go up with a bit of running.

I feel nearly certain the problem is a blockage, probably in the pilot circuit,

Have given up for today. Will have another go at cleaning the carb when I can get access to compressed air. Might go and see Elliot, he has a compressor.
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Paul W on August 07, 2022, 08:29:25 pm
If t fires on carb cleaner, it has a spark.

Engines will fire from cold on a very rich mixture, but not on a weak one.

So I’d say it’s not the battery, but lack of fuel.
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Karl Childers on August 07, 2022, 10:21:11 pm
For the sake of discussion I will say that using a voltmeter to test a battery out of circuit (not the alternator) is not that useful. Many times I've seen a battery show good voltage yet it breaks down under load. A better test is to use a battery load tester, most auto parts stores have them and will test your battery for free. I have seen batteries pass this test and still fail under load. The last method which is the best way is to swap in a known good battery. I have seen batteries that show good on a volt meter and also show good on a load tester yet are still defective. This is something I've learned the hard way over the years. The draw back to that method is not having a good battery around that fits and not wanting to buy one if not needed. I have used clip leads and a good car battery in a pinch. The battery may not be the culprit in this instance but don't entirely rule it out  by simply checking it with a voltmeter.
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Paul W on August 07, 2022, 10:45:04 pm
But Raymond got it to fire up on carb cleaner….so there’s a spark.
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Karl Childers on August 08, 2022, 01:05:04 am
But Raymond got it to fire up on carb cleaner….so there’s a spark.

Agreed, I mainly thought that while the subject of batteries was being broached I would mention that. I would also say a battery with a bad cell could have enough initial voltage for that brief run and then drop out but in this particular case that would be way down the list of suspects. 
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Paul W on August 08, 2022, 03:01:26 am
Fair enough!

On the subject of testing a battery, I treated myself to one these a couple years ago:

https://www.halfords.com/motoring/tools/garage-equipment/battery-chargers/ring-charge-and-diagnose-smart-charger---12a-116453.html

Expensive, but worth every penny. As you might be able to see in the photo, one of its functions is to be set to a battery’s cold cranking amps, run a test on it and give a perecentage of the set capacity.

I use it regularly.
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Karl Childers on August 08, 2022, 05:13:38 am
^ Very nice tool to have for your workshop!
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Raymond on August 08, 2022, 08:01:31 pm
Today, jumped on the XS650 and went to see Elliot. He lives in Northumberland, about 55 miles each way so a nice ride on a glorious Summer day. Had a few things to take to him - his spark gap tester, my chain riveter. Also, put the Mikcarb in my backpack - Elliot has a compressor.

We took the jets out and blasted 200 psi through the various openings and passages.

Home again, re-fitted the carb. Bullet started first kick. At first there was a lot of farting and popping and the engine stalled two or three times. But by dint of juggling the throttle and fiddling with the cable, soon able to hold an idle. Able to approximately set the throttle stop. Once I was happy the engine would reliably return to idle and reliably re-start after shutting down, even went for a short test. Just around the village, didn't want to go much further than a push home.

But I am so happy after the bike has been sitting in the garage in disgrace for the last couple of weeks.
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: AzCal Retred on August 09, 2022, 12:35:57 am
Perseverance Furthers!! ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Raymond on August 09, 2022, 11:17:11 am
Been for a test run around the village. The bike runs, but not well. Bogs down when a little throttle is applied, which make it difficult to pull away from junctions - needs lots of revs and clutch slippage. Not happy with that behaviour and not very safe.

Guess it's the transition from pilot to needle? I wish I knew whether the bogging down is caused by too rich or too weak. A few months back, I raised the needle. Clip from middle notch to one below and that seemed to help. But then for reasons can't explain, set the needle back to standard.

Suppose the obvious thing is to raise the needle again? The only thing making me hesitate is the plug looks dark.

(https://i.postimg.cc/hhWJD6xw/PICT0433.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)


Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: tooseevee on August 09, 2022, 12:18:29 pm
Been for a test run around the village. The bike runs, but not well. Bogs down when a little throttle is applied, which make it difficult to pull away from junctions - needs lots of revs and clutch slippage. Not happy with that behaviour and not very safe.


           This is a BS 29 CV, right?

            Plug looks rich.

            Remind us again:

                                      What # Pilot?

                                       What # Main?

                                       Needle clip in 3rd groove?

                                       How many turns out on the mixture screw are you?

                                       How long have you used this black plug?
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Raymond on August 09, 2022, 01:05:38 pm
I think everything is standard?

Carb is VM28 slide

pilot 25

main 117.5

needle middle notch of five

mixture screw 1½  turns out

I think this plug has only been in for a little while, though I have done some plug swapping to-and-fro while trying to sort the bike.
 
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: tooseevee on August 09, 2022, 02:42:43 pm
I think everything is standard?

Carb is VM28 slide

pilot 25

main 117.5

needle middle notch of five

mixture screw 1½  turns out

I think this plug has only been in for a little while, though I have done some plug swapping to-and-fro while trying to sort the bike.

            Woops. I'm sorry. I thought it was a CV. I should have gone back to the beginning & read everything over again. I don't know VMs at all.
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Raymond on August 09, 2022, 03:38:53 pm
I have perhaps bowed to the inevitable. Could have said bit the Bullet(Sorry!) and splurged for H's Mikuni VM32 kit.

(https://i.postimg.cc/ZqTBNY6T/mikuni-32mm.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

Might even be here tomorrow.
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Karl Childers on August 09, 2022, 03:53:13 pm
The Mikuni is infinitely more tunable than an Amal carb and others. Follow this guys instructions to the letter and you should be able to get yours spot on. This vid was a great help to me.

https://www.google.com/search?q=how+to+tune+your+mikuni+VM+32+CARB&oq=how+to+tune+your+mikuni+VM+32+CARB&aqs=chrome..69i57j33i160l3.30555j0j15&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8#kpvalbx=_9XPyYsefMZrh0PEP75-p0AE15
 
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Raymond on August 09, 2022, 06:04:47 pm
Thank you Karl!
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: tooseevee on August 10, 2022, 11:57:57 am
I have perhaps bowed to the inevitable. Could have said bit the Bullet(Sorry!) and splurged for H's Mikuni VM32 kit.

(https://i.postimg.cc/ZqTBNY6T/mikuni-32mm.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

Might even be here tomorrow.

            Wow. Good for you. That's a beautiful kit of goodies. Everything you need except I don't see Pilot jets. Maybe they're sure the one installed is good. I can't wait to hear this whole story.

             Personally, I would love to try this kit ONLY to see how it compares to the TM 32 on the first cold start (kick start) in the morning. But the price & pain involved just doesn't make it worth it to me. That's what I have you guys for now (vicarious thrills  :) :)(http://) ).

             I've played with the TM for years now & I cannot get it to kick start first start of the day. Yet it starts instantly with the electric start. From then on it's a one-kicker. It has been an eternal puzzlement to me. I shouldn't care that much because it runs like a kerosened cat on the road & never dies at stops signs or red lights. I should be happy, right?

            (PS: I know part of the problem is that I didn't have a decompressor installed with the ACEhead work. Big mistake with 9.8:1 comp).
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Raymond on August 12, 2022, 01:34:47 pm
Have fitted the new carb, but the thing I seem to struggle with is throttle cable routing. Very difficult to get the tank on and not find the cable is trapped somewhere. Is there a preferred routing? Diagram?
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: tooseevee on August 12, 2022, 04:47:24 pm
Have fitted the new carb, but the thing I seem to struggle with is throttle cable routing. Very difficult to get the tank on and not find the cable is trapped somewhere. Is there a preferred routing? Diagram?

         Do not despair  :) There is no map  :) :)

          It's an adventure! Ha! It's a learning experience. Ha! It's a Learning "Kurve". (They say).
     
           It's a toss of the dice (in the dark) brought on by a simple twist of fate & holding your face right,  that you get it the first time. It ain't no thing. Had to do mine twice at least when I put the TM on & hope to NEVer have to do it again!

           Trial & error - Good Luck - Carry on :)(http://)

           PS: Did that kit come with a curved or 45 degree metal cable entry tube? (I can't recall what that blasted thing is called. Duhhhhh
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Adrian II on August 12, 2022, 06:37:22 pm
You mean a ferrule? Could be different in US terminology? I think the one shown is for the throttle twist grip end, not the carb top. Another 90° ferrule with the outer cable shortened to suit and fitted at the carb end would do the job nicely.

I've moaned about the two piece carb mounts before, but what they do is to move the carb back to the point where the cable can foul the rear of the tank, a one-piece "plate manifold" or (one piece) flange adapter would bring the carb forward a little and give you more cable room. There are Mikuni items which are almost(!) right for the 500 Bullet, ideally the Mikuni PM13 for a VM32, the stud centres are slightly out at 60mm instead of the Indian Bullet's 58mm, but a few strokes of a rat-tail file would sort that very quickly. Sadly Allens Peformance in the UK are showing that they're out of stock, but Motocarb will possibly have something similar. Otherwise the PM12 for the VM30 is in stock at Allens, just needs opening out to 32mm.

A.
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Raymond on August 12, 2022, 06:54:07 pm
Well, Gentlemen, think I must take satisfaction that I'm not the first to wrestle with this problem. It is a challenge trying to get the carb not touching the tank, not blocking the tank fixing bolt, and not presenting the throttle cable at an impossible angle to the tank tunnel.

Today, after tank off, tank on too many times to mention, I am reasonably happy that the cable is not being too badly restricted. I fed it above the steering lock lump on the left, back along under the frame top tube, then gradually up, back and around to approach the top of the carb. Lightly held in place with cable ties. The throttle snaps shut and the slide goes fully down. The bike now has a reasonable tick-over which I might be able to further improve on. The only slight issue is that the revs rise a little when the bars are on full right lock, but not dangerously and I would not expect to move the bars to that angle with the engine running.

So I went out for a tentative test. Only intended to ride up through the village but gained enough confidence to ride to the next village before turning round. Further than I would like to push . . .

Only three or four miles but the new carb seemed quite promising.

PS To answer TooSeeVee, the elbow (?) on the throttle cable goes at the handlebar end and appears to replace the little split ferrule that lived there before.
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: tooseevee on August 13, 2022, 11:46:58 am
You mean a ferrule? Could be different in US terminology? I think the one shown is for the throttle twist grip end, not the carb top. Another 90° ferrule with the outer cable shortened to suit and fitted at the carb end would do the job nicely.

A.

           Yes. Ferrule. I found the word later after I had that Duh moment. And yes, you need to have the carb be a hair "more closer" to the engine to avoid the "cramping" of the cable that you get if it's too far from the head.
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Raymond on August 19, 2022, 02:21:26 pm
Current state of play - new carb fitted, bike starts fairly readily, sounds good but won't take any throttle and after a few seconds it spits and stops. Must have started it, ooh, maybe 60 times yesterday? Longest it ran perhaps half a minute. Plug is black, wet even, smells of petrol.

But the way it stops seems more like a misfire than a mixture problem? I dunno.
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: tooseevee on August 19, 2022, 04:01:24 pm
Current state of play - new carb fitted, bike starts fairly readily, sounds good but won't take any throttle and after a few seconds it spits and stops. Must have started it, ooh, maybe 60 times yesterday? Longest it ran perhaps half a minute. Plug is black, wet even, smells of petrol.

But the way it stops seems more like a misfire than a mixture problem? I dunno.

            No offense or criticism meant, but you don't help yourself or the starter or the bike starting it 60 times when you Know it's not going to run "the next time".

             Is this the same plug that was in there beFORE the new carb kit?
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Adrian II on August 19, 2022, 04:08:35 pm
Might be time to start a new thread, Raymond, as we're up to page 27 and that's a lot of reading back to check on what you've already done!

Did you have the new carb apart to check for little bits of swarf left over from the machining? You'd hope that with a genuine Mikuni they'd have got rid of any, but you never know. Probably not an air leak as that would make starting more difficult. Off-idle the sequence of carb tuning goes from the pilot jet to the throttle slide cut-away, thence to the needle jet, as you know. Needle set too high?

We know you've reconfigured the electrics, but please remind us exactly what have you done to/with the ignition so far.  ;)

A.
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Raymond on August 19, 2022, 07:03:40 pm
TooSeeVee, I take your point and no offense taken. Won't do the starter much harm - it's in a box on the garage shelf.

I didn't actually count how many times I started the bike. It was more like, start the engine, it stalls after a few moments, start it again, try to catch it with throttle, it stops even sooner, start it again, don't open the throttle this time, seems a bit better, but stops, start it again, etc, etc, till decide to look at the plug, it's black, swap another plug in, go through the same rigmarole again and again . . . even put the battery on charge, left it for a few hours, tried again. Take the plug out, confirm there's a spark, try again. And what else can I do than try minor tweaks and try again?

Adrian, think I'll try dropping the needle. Then I might try a smaller main jet? Part of my problem is somebody told me 'don't keep changing things in the carb or you will just get more & more confussed - wait till you get her running and go for a run to evaluate before even thinking about making a change'. Hmmm.

I set the timing by using my home-made piston stop to find tdc, primary cover off, turning the engine with 1" socket on the crank, have drawn marks on the rotor at tdc, 10° and 35° btdc and a reference on the stator. Used a test light between the points spring and earth - it just comes on at the 10° mark.

The cover is back on but I might take it off again and if I can get the engine to run for long enough will see what the strobe tells me.
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: AzCal Retred on August 19, 2022, 09:34:12 pm
Is there any way the exhaust is plugged up? Maybe a friend with a poor sense of humor and a spare shop rag? A small furry thing crawled in and died?

If it runs a little bit then chokes out, that's kinda what a plugged exhaust does. Pop off the header and try it, they sound kinda roarty drag-bike-ish without it but that way there is NO restriction on the Goes-Outta end.

The pilot jet, air screw and slide cutaway are the starting circuit variables. I can't imagine that H's didn't have the jetting pretty close on that new Mikuni. If the float bowl's 80% or so full when you take it off, and it isn't overflowing when static, the fuel level should be good, or close enough.

It's also behaving a lot like the Mikcarb did, so either the problem is elsewhere or both unrelated carbs have similar failures...?
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Yinzer on August 22, 2022, 04:54:48 am
The pilot jet, air screw and slide cutaway are the starting circuit variables.

When I replaced the 3 with the 2.5 slide on Dad's bike, it went from a 10 kicker to a 1 or 2.  ;D

https://accessories.hitchcocksmotorcycles.com/18432?cont_page=information-and-services/royal-enfield-bullet-export-500cc-accessories&page=10
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Raymond on August 22, 2022, 07:46:34 am
Thank you, Yinzer. I'm actually thinking of going back to the Mikcarb and seeing if I can get that to work. I don't know what options I have for slides on the Mikuni. Have taken a couple of days off from the Bullet.

One friend has suggested replacing the condenser and I guess that's worth a try. Then I might see if it's happier with the needle dropped a notch. Wish I knew whether the cutting out is due to mixture or ignition. There's an old chestnut - never under-estimate an ignition system's ability to make you blame the carb . . .
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Adrian II on August 22, 2022, 12:12:05 pm
Allens' Performance and Motocarb are both UK suppliers for Mikuni parts, they should have a range of slides for the Mikuni VM. The Mikarb is based on the Mikuni, and Hitchcocks have a tuning guide for those.

A.
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Karl Childers on August 22, 2022, 01:50:22 pm
I'm surprised that the Mikuni replacement carb wasn't very close to being dialed in out of the box. It should have only required minor changes from there. seeing as the mik carb gave you problems too I would suspect that your problems starting the bike lie elsewhere. I chased a chronic problem on my bullet that seemed carburetor related from day one of ownership that a second carb did not fix before I found the real problem. I would suggest you have a close look at your static and dynamic ignition timing. In my case that was where the problem originated and turned out to be the the two very inexpensive advance spring, a good pair from H's fixed everything. One other of my misadventures I will relate to you was  getting the positive wire of my points in a position where it partiatlly grounded out when the the distributor cover was attached. I kicked and kicked until I was blue in the face before removing the cover again and having it start right up revealed the problem. I should keep these embarrassing episodes to myself but I do pass them on in hopes it will help someone. To summarize double check all other subsystems before you go chasing you tail with the carburetor again. Good luck!
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Raymond on August 22, 2022, 03:22:26 pm
Gentlemen, thank you for all the suggestions.

Karl, that is rather where I have got to. Giving the bike I'm the ignoring you till you learn to behave treatment in the hope that inspiration will strike.

Seriously, will start to go through things - check the timing again, can't really check the advance until the the engine runs, but I bought some H's advance springs so mebbe I'll just fit 'em. Check the coil, check the wiring, plus I might get a friend to have a look - he doesn't know these older style Enfields but has experience of a lot of different bikes and sometimes just a second pair of eyes or second brain helps.
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Raymond on August 25, 2022, 09:11:24 am
Well, made what feels like progress. This eternal conundrum - is it electrics or is it carburation?

Obviously, having just fitted a new carb, I'm concentrating attention on the mixture. But the bike runs for a few seconds up to maybe half a minute then it quits and feels like a misfire. Plug wet and black.

Yesterday, decided to go through the ignition system again. Check my timing marks, check when the points open. Off with the primary cover, collect the ATF, use my homemade TDC tool. Yup, my pen marks are still visible and they are correct. Turn the engine with a 1" socket on the alternator and using a test light, confirm that the points open 10° btdc. For the first time, use my advance-lock tool - at full advance, the light comes on at the 32° mark.

So far so good. While I was in there, decided to refit the original condenser and points - they meet up better.

The power feed to the points was looking frayed, altogether a bit sorry for itself. Took it apart and this happened

(https://i.postimg.cc/V64nsvf1/PICT0456.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

Sorry about the out of focus picture. That wire next to the pen is the points power feed and the little clip just fell off as I undid it.

I think a dodgy connection to the points might account for the engine quitting.

Have made up a new wire, able to re-use the little clip - opened it up, cleaned it off, folded it over the end of the new cable and soldered it good. All back together, started the engine. It started easily, ran for a minute or so, then coughed and spluttered a few times and died.

But I feel I have eliminated an electrical problem. Ran out of time, but feel that I'm going to be able to work through setting up the carb without having a pesky electrical gremlin confusing the issue.
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Paul W on August 25, 2022, 10:13:44 am
If it is the carb, it might be fuel level related. Is the float valve needle cutting off the fuel at the correct height? If not, the mixture might be getting increasingly rich as the engine runs until it cuts out.

Another thing you could try, to determine if it is ignition related or not, is to put a simple neon bulb type spark tester between the plug and the cap.

I have a set of these and have found them invaluable when working on my vehicles. For example, I had a “professional” wire up an ECU on my three cylinder engine. I later had need to remove the plugs and having refitted them, the engine wouldn’t run and backfired badly. I eventually put the spark testers on and cranked it over. I discovered that the garage had cross wired numbers 2 and 3 cylinders in the back of the ECU so in the engine bay wiring the leads to the correct terminals on the coils was the wrong way round!

Mine are like these:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/172099079072?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0&ssspo=CEznwNDXSmu&sssrc=2349624&ssuid=_mH0__DERQe&var=&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY

Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Raymond on August 25, 2022, 12:52:36 pm
Thank you, Paul. The flashing spark plug tester seems like a Good Idea so I've just bought one, should be here by the weekend.

Probably a good idea to check the float height, though that should be correct on a new carb?

With that electrical gremlin chased away, I'll check coil & points both getting proper voltage. Then put the carb back to as delivered and see how we go from there.

Cheers, Raymond
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Paul W on August 25, 2022, 04:38:42 pm
I bought a new Wassell concentric but before I fitted it I took it all apart and checked it was clean and to confirm which jets it had. I also checked the float height was set…it was. But you never know; one small piece of debris can hold the float needle off its seat.
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Raymond on August 30, 2022, 07:35:59 am
Some progress yesterday. Checked voltage at the replacement points feed wire - showing 13.06v. Checked voltage at the coil feed wire - showing 13.06v. Ah, not too surprising, both are fed direct from the Kill switch. I was surprised when I check voltage at the same two places with the ignition OFF and found a small but measurable reading - 0.4v. WTF? Then I realised it must just be leakdown of the coil's capacitance. Resistance across the coil's primary terminals showing 3.1Ω

Used a friend's spark checker - the spark will jump 9mm. Blurb with the tool says you should get at least 15mm but I think they are writing about motor cars. Does 9mm suggest a weak spark or is that OK for an old British/Indian single?

I have dropped the needle back down to the setting as the carb was supplied by H's. In fact, all settings on the Mikuni are now as supplied. There is a bad hesitation if the throttle is opened a tiny amount but if I boldly turn it to maybe 1/4 throttle, the bike revs. Felt confident enough to go for two short test rides.

It's still not quite right and for comparison might put the Mikcarb back on there and see how that goes.

But I think a lot of the earlier problems must have been due to the worn out feed wire to the points.
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Paul W on August 30, 2022, 08:41:14 am
Quote
There is a bad hesitation if the throttle is opened a tiny amount but if I boldly turn it to maybe 1/4 throttle, the bike revs.

That sounds like it's running too rich at idle. Bear in mind that fuel flow has some slight inertia due to its mass, air has less. Cracking open the throttle naturally tends to result in weakening the mixture. Sounds like you have the opposite of that because it improves the running.
Title: Re: New member introduction
Post by: Raymond on August 30, 2022, 09:48:49 am
Thank you, Paul. I could try the 20 pilot they sent with the carb? It's a 25 at the moment. One change at a time . . .