[wildbill]

i'd always wondered if that first attempt on doing the valve adjustment was close or not and last week I decided to pre-book my bike into a local cycle dealer to have the local expert take a look at it
meanwhile for the past two weeks I had not been on the bike and had concentrated on riding the new honda crf250 which I put on roughly 200 miles or close to 300 kl. half of that being forest tracks and dirt road.
over the weekend I decided to take the interceptor out on two runs -in total I did roughly 200 miles.
now the new honda crf250l isn't slow but it is slow putting out roughly 22hp or could be 24hp but it feels slow. it would run with a uce 500 and possible beat it but its 50 kgs lighter too -I know I can cruise at 60 mph with virtually very little vib or buzz
so after two weeks playing about on the 250 I thought I take out the 650 so I could tell the dealer where it lacks in performance.
well to cut the story short -it lacked nothing. I had very good pulling power through all 6 gears and i was actually very surprised how well the bike was running. that well in fact I decided yesterday to contact the dealer and cancel the booking for the valve check.
I thought if i'm lucky he may equal what I have or it could come back worse. if that happened anything could hit the fan and i'd be out looking for another new bike
if its workin fine -don't touch it. in this case that is exactly what i did...lol
plus i probably saved $300 too but i wasn't that worried there but to put a bike in running perfectly for a - open up - would have been a aussie style ...not the full quid move!
 

[Ove]

I had a similar experience when I went back to my z900rs after riding my 500 for a 1000 miles. Performance was amazing. But, what really surprised me was how much I preferred the handling of my bullet!  One of my mates was sceptical about the small bike thing. Found out today he traded his zx12 for a 250 Honda, and loves it. I said nothing 

[jimku]

My valves will always be adjusted by my dealer.  Just because I am lazy and also because I suspect my own ineptitude.  I have seen mention of problems with rocker cover bolts stripping out and having to install thread coils, and I do not want to have to contend with that should it happen.  I just hope their service dude knows what the heck he's doing.

[phunky1]

Hi all!  First time rider, got my new 2019 Orange Crush Int 650 in August of last year and already on my 6k miles service.  Lurking in these forms until today...  Loving the bike so far.  I did try my valve adjustments this time and had 3 of the 4 rocker box cover bolts break and the 4th stripped.  I just had the holes drilled out and repaired at a local shop, I just didn't have the tools to do this myself.

1 question.  I, as many others are watching and following Stuart Fillingham's very informative youtube video.  All youtubers are saying the crankshaft must be only turned anti-clockwise.  While the service manual says the complete opposite.  I have already turned my crankshaft anti-clockwise and now wondering if I made a mistake?  Anyone know which way the crankshaft should be turned?

[agagliardi]

Hello, Would it make sense to rotate the rear wheel in gear and observe the direction of the crankshaft bolt?  This should reveal the correct direction of rotation-No?   I plan on adjusting the valves myself, so I would like to know too.  Also, did the rocker bolts break/strip with disassembly or assembly? Is the metal weak and easily over- torqued

[scottroberts]

I would like to have this clarified as well. I followed Stuart Fillingham's directions and did rotate the crankshaft counter clockwise for my Int 650 as I adjusted the valve guides. All worked out ok and the engine performs better than before but I'd like to know the correct direction.

[phunky1]

I was done and putting bolts back in using torque wrench.  The metal inside the bolt holes if very soft, I used a re-threading tool but I just didn't trust it to last so bit the bullet and had holes drilled and repaired.

It seems like counter-clockwise is correct, I tried clockwise and it didn't seem right.  I just can't believe it would steer you that wrong in a service manual.  Waiting on new bolts hopefully today then I can finish assembly and see if anything blows up when I start her up.

[Jako]

Those rocker cover bolts are shoulder bolts,  ( the threaded section is a smaller diameter  than the shaft )  , once the shoulder bottoms out it is very easy to snap or strip  , I don't  use a torque wrench on these, I prefer feel , when you feel the shoulder bottom out just slightly nip them . Torque wrench can cause you mischief  in this situation. Once the shoulder has bottomed out the rubber gasket is correctly compressed and any further tightening won't seal any better . The 500 UCE also use shoulder bolts on the rocker covers.

[twocoolgliders]

I checked the maintenance manual about valve tappet adjustment....It does not even mention rotation direction.


But....A few pages earlier it does say to NOT turn the engine counterclockwise...BUT I believe this is during assembly of the timing chain and other parts.


Normally you turn the engine the same way it runs, when doing valves....which I assume is counter clockwise.

Rotating the engine the "wrong" way...should not actually damage anything...but I think it may cause parts to not be lined up correctly for valve check and adjust.

BTW...they also mention some sort of special tool to hold the engine at TDC...again I think this has to do more with assembly of the timing chain than it does for valve adjust.  You can rotate the engine to the TDC mark, (left or right) and it should stay there just fine for valve adjustment.    Actually the valves remain closed for a few degrees of camshaft rotation....the low point of the lobe if you will....

One more thing...and this is just me...I watched Finnegan's video...and then Warro (wild bill)....they both seemed to go to great lengths to completely remove the gasket...with considerable difficulty...only to have to re install it and use RTV sealer....

If the gasket wants to stay there...why not just leave it there?  Doesn't seem to interfere with valve adjustment..


Cookie

I would like to have this clarified as well. I followed Stuart Fillingham's directions and did rotate the crankshaft counter clockwise for my Int 650 as I adjusted the valve guides. All worked out ok and the engine performs better than before but I'l like to know the correct direction.

[gizzo]

I checked the maintenance manual about valve tappet adjustment....It does not even mention rotation direction.


But....A few pages earlier it does say to NOT turn the engine counterclockwise...BUT I believe this is during assembly of the timing chain and other parts.


Normally you turn the engine the same way it runs, when doing valves....which I assume is counter clockwise.

Rotating the engine the "wrong" way...should not actually damage anything...but I think it may cause parts to not be lined up correctly for valve check and adjust.

Rotating the engine backwards can damage the sprag clutch [on some engines]. It's one of the reasons the singles have an automatic decompressor. It engages as the engine shuts down and stops it rolling over backward on the final compression stroke. The eary UCE singles had a weak sprag and it broke easily. Later ones, not so much of a problem.
An old bike of mine (Suzuki Savage) was notorious for it. The force of turning the sprag and stater motor backward could smash the idler gear between starter motor and sprag from the crankcase. Mine did it. later 5 speed models had a torque limiting clutch built into the idler. Mine, I'd switch it off in 1st and drop the clutch just as the motor stopped.

You're right that turning the engine backwards probably won't hurt anything but there's always the risk I suppose. If you turn it backward you'll hear an obvious noise that shouldn't be there and it'll take more effort than going the proper way. It might help the timing chain skip a tooth depending on the automatic tensioner, but I don't know much about that. Timing belt engines with spring loaded tensioners can do it, for sure. I'd stop and go the other way to be on the safe side. And you're also right about the timing marks probably not lining up properly, too.

In any event if you do turn it the wrong way it'll be pretty obvious because of the noise it makes.

My 2c, IME, YMMV etc

[twocoolgliders]

Good advice.....so don't go backward!

Cookie

Rotating the engine backwards can damage the sprag clutch [on some engines]. It's one of the reasons the singles have an automatic decompressor. It engages as the engine shuts down and stops it rolling over backward on the final compression stroke. The eary UCE singles had a weak sprag and it broke easily. Later ones, not so much of a problem.
An old bike of mine (Suzuki Savage) was notorious for it. The force of turning the sprag and stater motor backward could smash the idler gear between starter motor and sprag from the crankcase. Mine did it. later 5 speed models had a torque limiting clutch built into the idler. Mine, I'd switch it off in 1st and drop the clutch just as the motor stopped.

You're right that turning the engine backwards probably won't hurt anything but there's always the risk I suppose. If you turn it backward you'll hear an obvious noise that shouldn't be there and it'll take more effort than going the proper way. It might help the timing chain skip a tooth depending on the automatic tensioner, but I don't know much about that. Timing belt engines with spring loaded tensioners can do it, for sure. I'd stop and go the other way to be on the safe side. And you're also right about the timing marks probably not lining up properly, too.

In any event if you do turn it the wrong way it'll be pretty obvious because of the noise it makes.

My 2c, IME, YMMV etc

[phunky1]

So Page 92 says DO NOT rotate crankshaft anti-clockwise.
Page 92 fig 5.2.59 shows clockwise rotation with arrow

I have seen a few other places too so strange but seems anti-clockwise worked for me.  I put new bolts in carefully and took a 10 mile ride, all seems well.  I believe you are right about the bolts Jako, easily to over torque so was very gentle this time.  Probably more my mistake than anything since I am a newbie.

Those rocker cover bolts are shoulder bolts,  ( the threaded section is a smaller diameter  than the shaft )  , once the shoulder bottoms out it is very easy to snap or strip  , I don't  use a torque wrench on these, I prefer feel , when you feel the shoulder bottom out just slightly nip them . Torque wrench can cause you mischief  in this situation. Once the shoulder has bottomed out the rubber gasket is correctly compressed and any further tightening won't seal any better . The 500 UCE also use shoulder bolts on the rocker covers.

[twocoolgliders]

I agree that the service manual is not up to snuff of a USA manual, or a British manual, or a Japanese manual.


But  Page 92 has to do with camshaft installation, not valve tappet adjustment.

Figure 5.2.59 is actually on the next page, but it does show clockwise as you say, which agrees with the warning on page 92.

The tappet adjustment begins on page 98...it says to "turn the crankshaft" but doesn't say which way, and offers no warnings either.

I'm not sure which way the engine runs?

Cookie

So Page 92 says DO NOT rotate crankshaft anti-clockwise.
Page 92 fig 5.2.59 shows clockwise rotation with arrow

I have seen a few other places too so strange but seems anti-clockwise worked for me.  I put new bolts in carefully and took a 10 mile ride, all seems well.  I believe you are right about the bolts Jako, easily to over torque so was very gentle this time.  Probably more my mistake than anything since I am a newbie.

[MG]

Just turn the back wheel in gear and look at the crank turning bolt on the left hand side.....
It’s turns anti clockwise.

[twocoolgliders]

Roger that!   (thanks) So go counterclockwise for tappet adjust.

Cookie

Just turn the back wheel in gear and look at the crank turning bolt on the left hand side.....
It’s turns anti clockwise.

[phunky1]

I agree that the service manual is not up to snuff of a USA manual, or a British manual, or a Japanese manual.


But  Page 92 has to do with camshaft installation, not valve tappet adjustment.

Figure 5.2.59 is actually on the next page, but it does show clockwise as you say, which agrees with the warning on page 92.

The tappet adjustment begins on page 98...it says to "turn the crankshaft" but doesn't say which way, and offers no warnings either.

I'm not sure which way the engine runs?

Cookie

Agreed.  Seems the consensus is counter-clockwise for adjusting valves.

[Jako]

[quote author=twocoolgliders 

One more thing...and this is just me...I watched Finnegan's video...and then Warro (wild bill)....they both seemed to go to great lengths to completely remove the gasket...with considerable difficulty...only to have to re install it and use RTV sealer....

If the gasket wants to stay there...why not just leave it there?  Doesn't seem to interfere with valve adjustment..


Cookie
[/quote]


Cookie  There is very little clearance between the head and the frame to remove and replace the rocker cover even with the ABS module lifted up,  it seemed impossible  for me to get the cover back on with the gasket  sitting on the head , by fixing the gasket into the grove in the cover it gives a little more clearance  and allows  it back in, I still struggled  and eventually  used a little silicone  to hold the gasket in place in the cover. I also had to rotate the engine to get the rocker arms down as I moved the cover into place

[twocoolgliders]

yeah...I guess you gotta "be there" to see the issues.

I saw one video where the guy didn't even remove the tank completely...he just slid the valve cover first to one side and then to the other.

Anyway....I'm planning to do the valve adjust today...so I will find out!

Cookie

[quote author=twocoolgliders 

One more thing...and this is just me...I watched Finnegan's video...and then Warro (wild bill)....they both seemed to go to great lengths to completely remove the gasket...with considerable difficulty...only to have to re install it and use RTV sealer....

If the gasket wants to stay there...why not just leave it there?  Doesn't seem to interfere with valve adjustment..


Cookie



Cookie  There is very little clearance between the head and the frame to remove and replace the rocker cover even with the ABS module lifted up,  it seemed impossible  for me to get the cover back on with the gasket  sitting on the head , by fixing the gasket into the grove in the cover it gives a little more clearance  and allows  it back in, I still struggled  and eventually  used a little silicone  to hold the gasket in place in the cover. I also had to rotate the engine to get the rocker arms down as I moved the cover into place

[davepowell]

It helps (helped me anyway) to temporarily remove the horns for a little more space to maneuver.

[twocoolgliders]

So.....I did the valve tapped check and adjust this afternoon.  Few comments:

First of all....easy, compared to my other bikes.   Very straightforward....just like my old VW bugs and busses.  Man, my Suzuki, with the shims and buckets...a real PITA to do the valve adjust!  The RE...once you get everything off an out of the way....tappets are way out in the open...easy to do..  Only bikes I ever did which are easier, are my 1984 and 1986 Honda Scooters...they have eccentric valve tappet adjusters...you just loosen a bolt...push the adjuster all the way closed...then move the pointer over one line...and tighten the bolt...done in 20 seconds!

The videos I watched...Fillingham, and Wild Bill really helped....I knew exactly where everything was and what to do...thanks for that!

Getting a look at the inner workings a bit....I was really impressed with the build quality....far better than I had expected...lots of attention to little details.   Plus all of the QC stickers and signatures all over everything!   I think RE really put in the effort to make this a quality machine!

14mm Allen key needed to remove cover.   Don't have one...a socket with 14mm is like $20...so I went to the hardware store...looked for a metric bolt with a 14mm head....don't have....found that a imperial 3/8 bolt has a 9/16 head, and it just barley fits in the hole to remove cover...put on an elastic stop nut plus a jam nut and used a 9/16 socket on it...cost $2 for the hardware.

Seat removal....cool!

Tank removal...not bad....fuel quick disconnect was really nice!  Tight working under the tank, but no so bad as other bikes.

Yes, the valve cover just barely comes out....but it does.  Again not as bad as other bikes.

The hold down bolts...came out easy...went back easy...I just let them  bottom out and then just a tiny nip more.  I could see where over tightening could happen...but they  only use a 8mm socket...that means "go easy".....I didn't use torque wrench.


I did as I said....I kept the gasket attached to the head...not to the cover...so that little 1/2 moon section stays in...doesn't have to be re-sealed.   Yes...getting the cover back on....and the gasket in the groove all the way round took some time and patience...but not so bad really.   Took 'er for a 40 mile ride....no leaks....no noticeable change in running or performance...but it ran great before!

Left exhaust both were a bit loose...left intake were way tight.
Right intake were fine...right exhaust were a bit tight.

None of the clearances were off much...just one feeler size.

Just a comment about using feeler gauges...the videos show the proper way ..but not the only way.  The videos show how you "feel" with the gauge...should be drag, not loose, but not tight either.  This method takes a degree of experience.

I use the above method..first...but then I re check using my "go-nogo" method.  That is....say you're doing the exhaust with the spec .18mm......so you adjust the gap, and get the feeler to "feel" right on the .18mm gauge.

Well I use inches....so the exhaust uses the .007" feeler...so you adjust to get that to "feel" good....they you go one feeler size smaller...   .006"...this feeler should go in very easily and move around with no resistance at all.  Then you go one size over...   .008"   ...this feeler should not go in at all.

In fact...you don't ever have to actually use the specified size feeler....if the one under goes in....and the one over does not....you're in spec...

I'm sure there are many techniques being used...

Anyway...short ride   40 miles  it was like 70 degrees here in jersey...but on the way home...rain shower!

Only 460 miles on the bike so far...but I would say that me and the bike are now starting to "mind meld"...starting to like the bike more and more!


Cookie

[Arizoni]

I don't own a RE 650 but speaking about the clockwise and the counterclockwise direction the crank rotates, it all depends on which side of the engine your looking at.
On all of the motorcycles I've ever worked on, if your butt was sitting on the right side of the motorcycle and you were looking at the end of the crankshaft, it would look like it was rotating clockwise when it was running.
If your butt was sitting on the left side of the motorcycle and you looked at the end of the crankshaft when the engine was running it would be turning counter-clockwise.

If the RE 650 crankshaft is turning the other way, let me know.  I always like to learn about something new.

[twocoolgliders]

Yes...you can't really say an engine runs clockwise or counterclockwise...it depends on your relative position to the engine.


But....regarding the RE INT650....when you are doing valve tappet adjustment....

You open an access plug on the left side of the engine...that is the rider's left, if the rider is riding the bike...LOL

Inside there, is a 17mm nut (or bolt or whatever) so you put a 17mm socket on a short extension, and use that to rotate the crankshaft.


So...with that orientation in mind...you rotate the crankshaft counterclockwise....or on my ratchet  handle...it is set to "off" as in taking a nut of bolt off....

Cookie

I don't own a RE 650 but speaking about the clockwise and the counterclockwise direction the crank rotates, it all depends on which side of the engine your looking at.
On all of the motorcycles I've ever worked on, if your butt was sitting on the right side of the motorcycle and you were looking at the end of the crankshaft, it would look like it was rotating clockwise when it was running.
If your butt was sitting on the left side of the motorcycle and you looked at the end of the crankshaft when the engine was running it would be turning counter-clockwise.

If the RE 650 crankshaft is turning the other way, let me know.  I always like to learn about something new.

[olhogrider]

yeah...I guess you gotta "be there" to see the issues.

I saw one video where the guy didn't even remove the tank completely...he just slid the valve cover first to one side and then to the other.

This guy is a fool. I tried his method. It takes A LOT longer and there's no advantage. The hardest part of removing the tank is disconnecting the fuel line. That was a pain the first time because the fitting was stiff. After that it was easy.

[Sean7r]

Sorry I’ve been lurking in the background, I also own a 650gt and 16 other bikes.
Regarding turning the engine, turning it backwards may affect the cam chain tensioner, I’ve not heard of any problems not even with any other manufacturers, but maybe RE think turning the engine backwards would overload it, also if the tensioner was to be pushed back that would create slack and could then jump a tooth on the cam.
I’ll carry on lurking

Sean

[twocoolgliders]

I didn't say it was a good idea...just that somebody did it.  I learned a long time ago that "time saving shortcuts" just take way more time and effort.   Clearing parts out of the way is the way to go.  The tank is one of the easiest I've ever taken off!  Yeah 5 connections...but all easy.  Even the fuel line...if you lift the tank up and get a wood block under it....you can reach in and squeeze the release.  (take off the electrical plugs first...they restrict how high you can lift the tank.)

The whole valve adjust took me three hours...and I work slow and steady...and I stopped and made lunch....and a couple phone calls...and talked to the neighbor...and a trip to the hardware store...and a trip to the auto store (new feeler set)

Cookie

This guy is a fool. I tried his method. It takes A LOT longer and there's no advantage. The hardest part of removing the tank is disconnecting the fuel line. That was a pain the first time because the fitting was stiff. After that it was easy.

[twocoolgliders]

IF...and that's a big "if"...you trust the maintenance manual.....

When assembling the engine, and installing the camshaft and related parts....they warn to "not turn the engine counter clockwise"....they don't say why...but I can see where pulling stuff the wrong way may cause problems.


Since there are many errors in this manual....we cannot trust this statement to be true, it may be, or it may be a misprint.  But we are not assembling the camshaft here....so who cares?

When finding  TDC for valve tapped adjust, I've always read, and always done...turning the engine in the normal operating direction (which is counter clockwise for the RE).   The manual makes no mention of direction of engine turning in the tappet adjust section...it simply says to turn the crankshaft to align the TDC marks.

Going the wrong way, may or may not damage something....but I'm not going to be the one to find out!

Cookie

Sorry I’ve been lurking in the background, I also own a 650gt and 16 other bikes.
Regarding turning the engine, turning it backwards may affect the cam chain tensioner, I’ve not heard of any problems not even with any other manufacturers, but maybe RE think turning the engine backwards would overload it, also if the tensioner was to be pushed back that would create slack and could then jump a tooth on the cam.
I’ll carry on lurking

Sean

[twocoolgliders]

just did a quick search on "motorcycle turning engine backwards"

consensus is it won't damage anything.

But... for valve tappet adjustment...turning the wrong way will tension the wrong side of the timing chain.  Some say it "may" damage the tensioner..but most say not.

Some also say, by tensioning the wrong side of the timing chain, it could possible "jump a tooth" and f-up your valve timing.  Again most say if you turned slow and steady this will not happen.

The real problem is if you go backwards and tension the wrong side of the timing chain, then when the cam is on the TDC position, the crank will not be TDC. ... off by a smidgen.  Does this really matter?   I dunno...

Going in the running direction...the entire valve train is set up properly to check the tappets.

Cookie

[gizzo]

Sorry I’ve been lurking in the background, I also own a 650gt and 16 other bikes.
Regarding turning the engine, turning it backwards may affect the cam chain tensioner, I’ve not heard of any problems not even with any other manufacturers, but maybe RE think turning the engine backwards would overload it, also if the tensioner was to be pushed back that would create slack and could then jump a tooth on the cam.
I’ll carry on lurking

Sean

Heya Sean. You have some nice bikes on your list there.  The Big RD ,what a beast! And a bit of a collector's item now.

[Sean7r]

Heya Sean. You have some nice bikes on your list there.  The Big RD ,what a beast! And a bit of a collector's item now.

Hi Gizzo,  I’ve owned the big RD for 15 years now, the values have gone up but this one is a keeper, and the only bike I can power wheely without frightening myself, where as the Honda sp1 does. Keep safe everyone.

[gashousegorilla]

   It's a four stroke engine, they all get adjusted the same way .... what's the confusion?    Piston at the top of it's travel and both valves closed ... ON the compression stroke .   You can do it even if there were no reverence marks, by looking at the piston position and were the rockers are on the cams.    The rockers will be on the base circle of the cam lobes , when there is NO lift or push on the valve stems.   You CAN rotate the engine in either direction .. BUT...  you want to rotate it in it's normal direction, so as not to potentially damage an anti- rotational  mechanism on the starter.. like a sprag gear.    The normal direction that an engine rotates is clockwise when your on the RIGHT side of the motor.   Your turning the motor counter clockwise , because you are on the LEFT side of the motor adjusting the valves.      The base circle ... or bottom round part of that Egg shaped cam lobe ...  is perfectly  ROUND all the way around it.   So as long as you are on the ROUND part of the Cam with the piston at the top of it's travel, and valve closed,  you can set your valve lash.  It will make no difference in  cam duration  at the stock valve clearance.   IF valve lash  is wider or tighter then the stock lash,  It WILL effect  cam  duration.     If... it is loose,  your valve timing will be shortened  or less duration that the valve is opened.  If it is tight , the longer your valve will stay open.  More bottom end power on a loose setting, more top end power with with a tight setting.   But in either case, they should not be too loose or too tight . 

[twocoolgliders]

The confusion is that the maintenance manual seemingly contradicts itself and contradicts common practice.

Yes the cam need not be exactly TDC as the cam has a certain duration of valves closed...but good practice to always adjust at TDC for consistency.

RE650 is about as easy and straight forward as they get.

  We adjust valves, mostly (especially exhaust valve) for heat dissipation...so the valves don't burn.  You are really not going to get much, if any "performance" change by using non-standard valve clearances.

Valves have to be really out of spec to notice performance degradation.  Guys claim "performance improvement" after simple valve adjustment.....placebo...

Not all 4 stroke engines are adjusted the same way.  While the general principle is the same, there are subtle and not-so-subtle differences in the methods:

I have bikes with shim and bucket  (these have a tolerance range) and math required to set. And special tool to hold valve open during change of shim

My suzuki has one cam position to adjust three of the 4 valves...and a second cam position to adjust the last exhaust valve.

Bikes like the RE have simple lock nut and slot adjusters

My Yamaha needs a special tool to move the adjusters. (and tiny hole to work through)

My Honda had eccentric adjusters...different method altogether.

4 stroke engines with pushrods are slightly  different than overhead cams (slop in the valve train) sometimes pushrod length can be wrong.

some 4 stroke engines have hydraulic lifters  (usually no adjustment needed unless out of major spec)

Probably more I don't know of.


Just sayin.....

RE uses the most simple adjustment method... anybody with a RE should learn to do their own valve adjust....with even the tiniest mechanical skill, one wrench and one screwdriver.....and a bit of patience, you can save yourself a couple hundred $$$, do them on your time schedule, not trip to the dealer, no leave your bike overnight,  and you also know they are done correctly!  My2c


Cookie

 

   It's a four stroke engine, they all get adjusted the same way .... what's the confusion?    Piston at the top of it's travel and both valves closed ... ON the compression stroke .   You can do it even if there were no reverence marks, by looking at the piston position and were the rockers are on the cams.    The rockers will be on the base circle of the cam lobes , when there is NO lift or push on the valve stems.   You CAN rotate the engine in either direction .. BUT...  you want to rotate it in it's normal direction, so as not to potentially damage an anti- rotational  mechanism on the starter.. like a sprag gear.    The normal direction that an engine rotates is clockwise when your on the RIGHT side of the motor.   Your turning the motor counter clockwise , because you are on the LEFT side of the motor adjusting the valves.      The base circle ... or bottom round part of that Egg shaped cam lobe ...  is perfectly  ROUND all the way around it.   So as long as you are on the ROUND part of the Cam with the piston at the top of it's travel, and valve closed,  you can set your valve lash.  It will make no difference in  cam duration  at the stock valve clearance.   IF valve lash  is wider or tighter then the stock lash,  It WILL effect  cam  duration.     If... it is loose,  your valve timing will be shortened  or less duration that the valve is opened.  If it is tight , the longer your valve will stay open.  More bottom end power on a loose setting, more top end power with with a tight setting.   But in either case, they should not be too loose or too tight . 

[gashousegorilla]

    Agreed... absolutely different method's  to adjust valves on different four strokes , to do the exact same thing.   Clearance between the rocker and valve tip, ALWAYS  when the piston is at or near TOP DEAD CENTER  of the compression stroke.   It could be a one piston engine your dealing with  or a multiple piston engine.   To simplify things , especially if there is confusion in the book.... one should be able to look  at an engine and identify  top dead center of the compression stroke , and all mystery's about it are gone.  You have simple marks on that motor , and from what I have sen in the book , you can't go wrong.  But , for piece of mind and if one wants to understand what they are doing better .  And not wonder afterwords and to keep it simple.   

   That is .... look into the spark plug hole , is the piston all the way UP ?   You can use a flash light,  or a wooden dowel on top of the piston and watch it rise to it peak height.    Now , go look at your valve springs , rockers and Cam.... both intake and exhaust.     Are the rocker arms on the ROUND part of the Cam lobe ?   Does the rocker arms feel slightly loose when you grab it and shake it ?  Are the valve springs ALL the way UP , and not compressed ?    Yeah ?    Then your at or near TDC of the compression stroke.  Go a head and check and adjust your valve clearance.  It's as simple as that, don't over think it.

  Cookie... it's just a fact that valve lash plays a role in valve timing.   It's not a placebo effect.    If lash is loose , the time the valve is open is shorter.  If lash is tight, the longer a valve is open.     When lash is adjusted at the SAME air gap on the base circle of the cam ... and as long as one is on the base circle of the cam , as the cam rotates and the rocker, or follower, or lifter  hits that flank of the cam.... all things are consistent.

[twocoolgliders]

Well yes, but....

with a simple engine such as the RE650...you don't want to try to change valve timing by changing valve clearances....yes if you change the clearance (off of spec.) you will change the timing (off of spec.) ...(very slightly)  but why?  And you jeopardize other parameters which are far more important.

From the manual:

"Do not adjust tappets with less or no clearance as it will result in poor compression, valve burn out, and wear-out of the tapped adjuster foot.

Do not adjust tappet with high clearance as it will result in noise and insufficient opening of the valves."


If you want to change valve timing, you design and install a new cam with the desired profile.  Same for duration, overlap,  and "lift".


So to reiterate, the reason we adjust the tappets to spec in not to "change" valve timing.  It is to get the correct valve opening.  (and to make sure the exhaust valves seat and transfer heat away from them). If we get the clearances to spec the "timing" will take care of itself

Just watched a video on an engine with pneumatic actuators for opening valves..  Completely controlled by the computer.  It controls when the valve opens, the duration, when it closes....how far it opens.  It can even open only one exhaust valve at at time if needed! (to run only one of the two turbos)  So instead of "one size fits all conditions"  cam shape  This engine can give whatever you need at any particular instance, be it economy, power, emissions etc.

But then again...you have to buy the $1,000,000 car to get this precision!

Cookie


GHG said:
  Cookie... it's just a fact that valve lash plays a role in valve timing. 

[BRG-BIRD]

I did the valve clearance check and adjustment at 300 miles, all the valve clearances were tight. I noticed no change in performance other than possibly a slightly noisier top end.

[twocoolgliders]

Right.....if the valves are "out" by just a bit....the bike will still run just fine.  You want to keep the valves in spec for other reasons.  A bike that runs just fine, is not going to "run better than fine" with just a small adjustment needed.

If the valves are so far out, as to make the bike run poorly, then yes, adjusting the valves will make it run "better".

Some of mine were tight while others loose....but none more than one feeler size (or 1/1000 of an inch)...didn't make a bit of difference in how the bike runs.

The big worry with valves (and I know this from my VW days) is "burning" the exhaust valves.

Cookie

I did the valve clearance check and adjustment at 300 miles, all the valve clearances were tight. I noticed no change in performance other than possibly a slightly noisier top end.

[gizzo]

One of my mates likes to say "slappy valves are happy valves". Within reason, of course but you get the idea.

[stefano_musica]

Just turn the back wheel in gear and look at the crank turning bolt on the left hand side.....
It’s turns anti clockwise.

This is what I was thinking.

[KiwiGT]

About to do first valve clearance check, just wondering if putting in gear on centre stand and turning rear wheel in direction of travel is good enough to get the timing marks lined up? Seems easier than buying a $20 tool to open up another seal and then go through the palava of which way to turn it?

[olhogrider]

About to do first valve clearance check, just wondering if putting in gear on centre stand and turning rear wheel in direction of travel is good enough to get the timing marks lined up? Seems easier than buying a $20 tool to open up another seal and then go through the palava of which way to turn it?

It is easy if you pull the spark plugs. Before you get mad at every Indian engineer and YouTube expert, when you remove the valve cover, clean it off, clean the gasket and GLUE it to the cover. What type of glue you use doesn't matter. Set it aside to dry while you adjust the valves. DO NOT put any glue on the head side of the gasket, including the semicircle. It doesn't need it. Some people use grease (a lubricant) to make it stick. Some people use prayer (just as effective as grease). USE GLUE!

The other almost as important thing to remember is your valve cover bolts are made from Indian Balsa Wood. They just look like metal. Only tighten them enough to keep the cover from rattling off. Sung and nothing more. If you use a torque wrench to achieve the factory setting of 12 nm, you will learn the joy of extracting broken bolts from the head.

[KiwiGT]

It is easy if you pull the spark plugs. Before you get mad at every Indian engineer and YouTube expert, when you remove the valve cover, clean it off, clean the gasket and GLUE it to the cover. What type of glue you use doesn't matter. Set it aside to dry while you adjust the valves. DO NOT put any glue on the head side of the gasket, including the semicircle. It doesn't need it. Some people use grease (a lubricant) to make it stick. Some people use prayer (just as effective as grease). USE GLUE!

The other almost as important thing to remember is your valve cover bolts are made from Indian Balsa Wood. They just look like metal. Only tighten them enough to keep the cover from rattling off. Sung and nothing more. If you use a torque wrench to achieve the factory setting of 12 nm, you will learn the joy of extracting broken bolts from the head.

haha thanks mate, I wonder why more people don't just do the wheel trick (maybe they do) seems a lot easier than breaking another seal. I'll give it a shot in next day or 2 and yes I've read about the cover bolt thing - thanks. I intend to have a go with leaving the gasket in place, watching the videos I can't see the need to remove it but maybe I'll find out why when I actually do it 

[Breaker Express]

haha thanks mate, I wonder why more people don't just do the wheel trick (maybe they do) seems a lot easier than breaking another seal. I'll give it a shot in next day or 2 and yes I've read about the cover bolt thing - thanks. I intend to have a go with leaving the gasket in place, watching the videos I can't see the need to remove it but maybe I'll find out why when I actually do it 

I just did my 300 mile service this weekend. Took Saturday afternoon to drain the oil and get everything off ready for the valve adjustment which I did on Sunday afternoon. No rushing here
Pretty simple really but you will find out that the dreaded gasket is a PITA. I ended up using sealant in the grove on the cover and it worked pretty well. As far as the ABS unit that they say to loosen one bolt and remove the 2 back ones and stick some wood under it to keep it up, I just removed all 3 lifted it up and moved it to one side so that it rested on the pins that the bolts go thru. I tried to do it without taking the horns off. I could not get that cover off so I took the horns and voila.
I did call around to try and get a set of metric feeler gauges and it seems that in the US a set of metric gauges are SAE without the SAE markings just metric WTF. I am going to see if I can pick up a set of true metric feeler gauges before the 6K service. Maybe when I go back to the homeland next.

[twocoolgliders]

I've seen "straight metric" feelers available online.  May be easier and simpler to understand...

But using inches gauges works just as well..especially if you use my "go /  no-go"  method.


Cookie

I just did my 300 mile service this weekend. Took Saturday afternoon to drain the oil and get everything off ready for the valve adjustment which I did on Sunday afternoon. No rushing here
Pretty simple really but you will find out that the dreaded gasket is a PITA. I ended up using sealant in the grove on the cover and it worked pretty well. As far as the ABS unit that they say to loosen one bolt and remove the 2 back ones and stick some wood under it to keep it up, I just removed all 3 lifted it up and moved it to one side so that it rested on the pins that the bolts go thru. I tried to do it without taking the horns off. I could not get that cover off so I took the horns and voila.
I did call around to try and get a set of metric feeler gauges and it seems that in the US a set of metric gauges are SAE without the SAE markings just metric WTF. I am going to see if I can pick up a set of true metric feeler gauges before the 6K service. Maybe when I go back to the homeland next.

[twocoolgliders]

using inch feelers to do metric gaps on RE valves....

Spec. is .08mm intake and .18mm exhaust


inch feelers:

.003 = .076mm
.007 = .178mm

Plenty close enough

Easier way to check:

.003 is a "go"    .004 is a no go
.007 is a go       .008 is a no go


Easy, cheap....done...go ride!


Cookie

[Starpeve]

It is easy if you pull the spark plugs. Before you get mad at every Indian engineer and YouTube expert, when you remove the valve cover, clean it off, clean the gasket and GLUE it to the cover. What type of glue you use doesn't matter. Set it aside to dry while you adjust the valves. DO NOT put any glue on the head side of the gasket, including the semicircle. It doesn't need it. Some people use grease (a lubricant) to make it stick. Some people use prayer (just as effective as grease). USE GLUE!

The other almost as important thing to remember is your valve cover bolts are made from Indian Balsa Wood. They just look like metal. Only tighten them enough to keep the cover from rattling off. Sung and nothing more. If you use a torque wrench to achieve the factory setting of 12 nm, you will learn the joy of extracting broken bolts from the head.

Thanks for that tip about the bolts. I guess I’ll be upgrading them, then.😁
Steve

[Jako]

Starpeve   No need to upgrade those bolts  just be very gentle when tightening,  they are shoulder bolts that seat on a shoulder , you will feel the shoulder hit bottom then just slightly nib ,   see attached image of similar shoulder bolts , you will see why they snap or strip  if turned beyond seating.

Thanks for that tip about the bolts. I guess I’ll be upgrading them, then.😁
Steve

[Bagonne]

using inch feelers to do metric gaps on RE valves....

Spec. is .08mm intake and .18mm exhaust


inch feelers:

.003 = .076mm
.007 = .178mm

Plenty close enough

Easier way to check:

.003 is a "go"    .004 is a no go
.007 is a go       .008 is a no go


Easy, cheap....done...go ride!


Cookie

will the No Go still slip in with a bit of push, while to Go slides in easily but with a tiny bit of friction?

[Dr Mayhem]

The manual doesn't want you to turn the 17mm magneto rotor bolt counter clockwise because there's a chance it could loosen without you knowing.

Then down the road a bit if you did inadvertently loosen said bolt things happening could make for a very bad day

[olhogrider]

haha thanks mate, I wonder why more people don't just do the wheel trick (maybe they do) seems a lot easier than breaking another seal. I'll give it a shot in next day or 2 and yes I've read about the cover bolt thing - thanks. I intend to have a go with leaving the gasket in place, watching the videos I can't see the need to remove it but maybe I'll find out why when I actually do it 

If the gasket stays in place then there's no need to touch it. Mine came out with the cover, hence the glue. The biggest complaint anyone has is trying to refit the cover while the gasket slips away.

[Breaker Express]

using inch feelers to do metric gaps on RE valves....

Spec. is .08mm intake and .18mm exhaust


inch feelers:

.003 = .076mm
.007 = .178mm

Plenty close enough

Easier way to check:

.003 is a "go"    .004 is a no go
.007 is a go       .008 is a no go


Easy, cheap....done...go ride!


Cookie

That is basically what I did since my main set of feeler gauges have both metric and SAE, I am just nit picky about stuff like that and it pissed me off when I called around to see if anyone had metric sets. "Yes we do" / What sizes do they come in / "0.076 and 0.178".
They are just SAE without the SAE markings and one guy at the parts shop asked me what feeler gauges were. Ftard. I am missing something?

[twocoolgliders]

ok...let me 'splain it better, Lucy!

let's stay with metric to make it easier...

So, the spec. calls for .08mm for the intakes.

So many mechanics would take a .08 feeler, and adjust the clearance until the .08 feeler just barely fits in....this is an OK way to do it...but too hard to do IMHO.


Plus if the .08 feeler fits in...you know the gap has to be GREATER than .08mm...how much greater?  You don't know!

So I go one size "UNDER"  this is my "GO"

So I slip in a .07mm.....it it doesn't go, he gap is too small and I must adjust...

If the .07mm "goes" the I know the gap is greater than .07mm....but how much greater?

So I try a .09mm.....if it "goes" then the gap is too wide and I must adjust...

If the .09MM does not go (at all) then I know the gap is less than .09mm

and I know from the previous that it is greater than the .07...

So now I know, within reasonable, tolerance that the gap is between .07 and .09...so it is "about" .08!!


To get closer yet....most agree that slightly larger gap is better than too small of a gap..and many adjust larger gap "on purpose"

So for the .08mm spec.

You take a .08mm feeler...and it should "go"  but if it goes, you know the gap is greater than .08MM

So you take the .09mm feeler and it should "not go".

So now you know the gap is slightly greater than .08....but it must be smaller than .09...

great...done...finished,....easy...go ride!

Remember that you must recheck gaps once you tighten down the screw and locknut...it iwll change slightly as it get tightened!

Cookie

will the No Go still slip in with a bit of push, while to Go slides in easily but with a tiny bit of friction?

[Starpeve]

Starpeve   No need to upgrade those bolts  just be very gentle when tightening,  they are shoulder bolts that seat on a shoulder , you will feel the shoulder hit bottom then just slightly nib ,   see attached image of similar shoulder bolts , you will see why they snap or strip  if turned beyond seating.

Thanks for the tip! Muchos Grazious Senor👍

[Breaker Express]

I did the valves this past weekend and rather than just nip the rocker cover bolts up I tightened them to 8NM instead of 12.

[Starpeve]

I did the valves this past weekend and rather than just nip the rocker cover bolts up I tightened them to 8NM instead of 12.

And nothing to report?

[Breaker Express]

Nothing too bad. I made adjustments to 1 exhaust valve on the left and 2 intake valves (1 on ea side). Started the bike after I got it all back together. No oil leaks and sounds great

[Jako]

First time  I  stuggled with the valve cover both removing and replacing . Second time (at 5000 km ) I removed the horns and the breather hose above the cover , this made it so much easier  I was finished the complete  job in 40 minutes compared with  3 hours on my first attempt. The fuel tank connections were also much easier 2nd time around from experience gained.

[Bagonne]

how tight is too tight on the rocker cover bolts?  I see the gasket compress just a little, the bolts feel as if they could go more but I'm using very little force on my ratchet.  They move both in and out with a little force, not bottomed out and not loose. 

I'm imagining that as long as the bolts are not loose to back out on their own and not tight to require much force to get them back out ( just an easy twist of the wrench) that it's good?

I rechecked at 1000 miles just to be sure and they were a hair out.  It could have been my own poor work previously but I don't know.  too tight. 

I feel confident that I have it now.  My Honda 305 had tappet covers that made the job easy enough to do daily of I wanted.  wish this had the same

[Breaker Express]

Bagonne,

I just tightened them up to 8Nm instead of 12. I have put a 100 miles on the bike since and all seems well.

[phunky1]

Agreed.  Seems the consensus is counter-clockwise for adjusting valves.

Seems like we still have confusion on which way to turn.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZyTRZLrnX3g

[olhogrider]

Seems like we still have confusion on which way to turn.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZyTRZLrnX3g

It absolutely does not matter. The whole controversy is based on the hypothesis that you might undo the bolt that your socket is on. The one that was installed with 120nm of torque. While rotating a crankshaft with the spark plugs removed. It isn't going to happen. I have been accused of underthinking at times but this page is the internet home of overthinkers. This is where you will find 17 pages devoted to fork oil or shock preload. 

[Sleepy Capybara]

ok...let me 'splain it better, Lucy!

let's stay with metric to make it easier...

So, the spec. calls for .08mm for the intakes.

So many mechanics would take a .08 feeler, and adjust the clearance until the .08 feeler just barely fits in....this is an OK way to do it...but too hard to do IMHO.


Plus if the .08 feeler fits in...you know the gap has to be GREATER than .08mm...how much greater?  You don't know!

So I go one size "UNDER"  this is my "GO"

So I slip in a .07mm.....it it doesn't go, he gap is too small and I must adjust...

If the .07mm "goes" the I know the gap is greater than .07mm....but how much greater?

So I try a .09mm.....if it "goes" then the gap is too wide and I must adjust...

If the .09MM does not go (at all) then I know the gap is less than .09mm

and I know from the previous that it is greater than the .07...

So now I know, within reasonable, tolerance that the gap is between .07 and .09...so it is "about" .08!!


To get closer yet....most agree that slightly larger gap is better than too small of a gap..and many adjust larger gap "on purpose"

So for the .08mm spec.

You take a .08mm feeler...and it should "go"  but if it goes, you know the gap is greater than .08MM

So you take the .09mm feeler and it should "not go".

So now you know the gap is slightly greater than .08....but it must be smaller than .09...

great...done...finished,....easy...go ride!

Remember that you must recheck gaps once you tighten down the screw and locknut...it iwll change slightly as it get tightened!

Cookie

Nicely done. Thanks!

[Hoiho]

Am I the only one to have a 14mm crank cover?

[Breaker Express]

Am I the only one to have a 14mm crank cover?

No you are not.

[AndyinNZ]

Am I the only one to have a 14mm crank cover?

Mine is. They all must be ?

[NVDucati]

Am I the only one to have a 14mm crank cover?

Mine is exactly the same size as yours.
I've got a 2020 USA INT

[Starpeve]

It absolutely does not matter. The whole controversy is based on the hypothesis that you might undo the bolt that your socket is on. The one that was installed with 120nm of torque. While rotating a crankshaft with the spark plugs removed. It isn't going to happen. I have been accused of underthinking at times but this page is the internet home of overthinkers. This is where you will find 17 pages devoted to fork oil or shock preload. 

Hahaha😁😂

[olhogrider]

Mine doesn't look like that!

[twocoolgliders]

Yes they are 14 mm for Allen wrench.

There are several videos out there and some written info which mistakes it and calls it 17mm.

They were getting ahead of themselves, as the NUT inside, which you turn to get to TDC, is 17mm.


Cookie

Am I the only one to have a 14mm crank cover?

[RavRed]

Yes they are 14 mm for Allen wrench.

There are several videos out there and some written info which mistakes it and calls it 17mm.

They were getting ahead of themselves, as the NUT inside, which you turn to get to TDC, is 17mm.

Cookie

Thanks you Cookie, this is correct and what others were confusing.

Pro Tip:  You don't need to buy a special 14mm allen , the top of a standard HEx HEad 5/8" bolt from Lowes and a Vice Grip will do the job to get it off/on. ...saw this in a random YouTube video a while back...forgot who's though...

[Jared_Lee]

Also, a bit of advice from old Honda mechanics - rather than fuss about with a .08 trying get the resistance just so, slide a .09 in and secure the valve down tight. It'll be ever so slightly looser than a standard .08, but nothing that's going to affect your performance at all and done in half the fuss. It's called a tight .09 or whatever clearance you're looking for. It's a standard trick that'll save a good deal of time and fiddling.

[RavRed]

Mine doesn't look like that!

What the HECK is that!?!  LOL.  That plug must be a mistake or aftermarket not to mention a weird color...

[mwmosser]

What the HECK is that!?!  LOL.  That plug must be a mistake or aftermarket not to mention a weird color...

He's got the fancy-pants brass one - can't remember who sells it, but there are an increasing number of brass accessories available for the Twins. Not my preferred style, but they do look sharp.

[twocoolgliders]

mechanic?  or butcher?

Yet another reason to never let the dealer do work on you bike!

Why fuckup your nice feeler gauge by tightening down on it?

Plus...most of the time, we "check" the clearance....most of the time it is OK...so most of the time you have no need to adjust.

.07 or .08 is a "go"    .09 is no go....done!

Have some pride in your tools, and some pride in workmanship

Or ....do it "your way"...whatever!


just sayin'


Cookie

Also, a bit of advice from old Honda mechanics - rather than fuss about with a .08 trying get the resistance just so, slide a .09 in and secure the valve down tight. It'll be ever so slightly looser than a standard .08, but nothing that's going to affect your performance at all and done in half the fuss. It's called a tight .09 or whatever clearance you're looking for. It's a standard trick that'll save a good deal of time and fiddling.

[Jared_Lee]

Yeah, I'll gladly trust the more than 100 years experience in motorcycling behind that advice. And as you always say, do what you want, be happy! It was more advice for some who may find that getting the valve just right using other methods frustrating and difficult. The tight one step up works. Period. And it doesn't damage your feeler gauge unless you're a total hamfist. Which, considering who the method might appeal to, perhaps will damage the feeler gauge. Haha. Really though, we're just talking different ways to set a clearance that's going to keep the engine happy on the road either way. I certainly was not offering this method for you to try. You have one that works for you and that's great.

[twocoolgliders]

100 years of doing something stupid is still stupid.

When you apply a "load" as in clamping down on the feeler....you are stressing something...even if just a little.

Stress means bending.....not permanent bending...but bending...so when you slip out that feeler, something is going to spring back...

Most (if not all)..."real" mechanics I know....will use a .08 feeler to get a .08 gap....and the will "feel" the correct sliding resistance, (not too loose, not too tight)  an acquired skill....without having to clamp down on anything.

I set gaps this way too....but then I check my work with the "go  no-go" method......since I take pride in my work, and I do not hurry, and I have no profit motive.

Tell me how many guys check the valves themselves, after the so-called mechanic at the dealer did them?  and found them either not even touched, or way off?


But I will never change your mind, nor will you change mine!

For you beginner home mechanics out there...maybe consider a more fool proof method...even if it takes and extra 5 minutes!

Just sayin'


Cookie

Yeah, I'll gladly trust the more than 100 years experience in motorcycling behind that advice. And as you always say, do what you want, be happy! It was more advice for some who may find that getting the valve just right using other methods frustrating and difficult. The tight one step up works. Period. And it doesn't damage your feeler gauge unless you're a total hamfist. Which, considering who the method might appeal to, perhaps will damage the feeler gauge. Haha. Really though, we're just talking different ways to set a clearance that's going to keep the engine happy on the road either way. I certainly was not offering this method for you to try. You have one that works for you and that's great.

[Jared_Lee]

Except that it's not stupid, it works. It's put my family's motorcycles back on the road with happy clearances since the 60s. You're right, we have a different approach to the work. The difference is, I have respect for your ideas and allow for the reality that two different ways of doing something may arrive at comparable results. I don't need to call your method stupid to make mine feel more valid to me.

Thanks.

[twocoolgliders]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OfFY4Hwoopg

The idea of go, no-go is so "stupid" that all the major tool makers make a dedicated set of feelers with the go, no-go feature built right in!   So you only need to use one blade to get the go, no-go setting.


I just searched a bunch of sites on "how to use feelers" and they either show (video or text) the "feel the drag" method, or the "go, no go" method......

I haven't found one that recommends the "clamp down on your gauge" method...(maybe I need to search more than the 10 sites)

I "explained" why the clamp down method is stupid..bending stuff, overloading stuff, messing up you tools etc.

And the "standard" methods work well without the pitfalls....and have worked for "100" years...and is the "right way"...not just "a way".....

But hey man...clamp away...(on YOUR bike)



Cookie

Except that it's not stupid, it works. It's put my family's motorcycles back on the road with happy clearances since the 60s. You're right, we have a different approach to the work. The difference is, I have respect for your ideas and allow for the reality that two different ways of doing something may arrive at comparable results. I don't need to call your method stupid to make mine feel more valid to me.

Thanks.

[Jared_Lee]

Cool, man. Enjoy your night.

[Hoiho]

Yes they are 14 mm for Allen wrench.

There are several videos out there and some written info which mistakes it and calls it 17mm.

They were getting ahead of themselves, as the NUT inside, which you turn to get to TDC, is 17mm.


Cookie

Cheers Cookie, makes sense as I had seen 17mm for the cover mentoned several times... picked up a 14mm allen bit for peanuts, after noting that metric bolt heads are not 14mm. 

[twocoolgliders]

14mm Allen IS the correct tool.

I too found out that a 14 mm bolt head will not fit into the 14mm Allen hole, but an SAE bolt will !  (508, I think)

Some of us are too cheap to get the correct tool, but if I find a 14mm Allen for a cheap price I will buy it!


Cookie

Cheers Cookie, makes sense as I had seen 17mm for the cover mentoned several times... picked up a 14mm allen bit for peanuts, after noting that metric bolt heads are not 14mm.

[Starpeve]

mechanic?  or butcher?

Yet another reason to never let the dealer do work on you bike!

Why fuckup your nice feeler gauge by tightening down on it?

Plus...most of the time, we "check" the clearance....most of the time it is OK...so most of the time you have no need to adjust.

.07 or .08 is a "go"    .09 is no go....done!

Have some pride in your tools, and some pride in workmanship

Or ....do it "your way"...whatever!


just sayin'


Cookie

Right on! They don’t call em feeler gauges for nothing.

[twocoolgliders]

Turns out...you can find a 14 mm alllen socket, or even an Allen wrench....all over the place....home depot, lowes, NAPA, advance auto, auto zone etc....all in the $5 to $15 range!


For that cheap, it is well worth picking up one, and keep in the tool box, and use the correct tool for the job....

Not worth my time to set up a bolt with nuts on it...


Cookie

Cheers Cookie, makes sense as I had seen 17mm for the cover mentoned several times... picked up a 14mm allen bit for peanuts, after noting that metric bolt heads are not 14mm.

[gizzo]

Except that it's not stupid, it works. It's put my family's motorcycles back on the road with happy clearances since the 60s. You're right, we have a different approach to the work. The difference is, I have respect for your ideas and allow for the reality that two different ways of doing something may arrive at comparable results. I don't need to call your method stupid to make mine feel more valid to me.

Thanks.

I don't have a problem with doing it that way either. 1 thou here or there makes no difference and there's almost zero chance of damaging a feeler tightening down on it. Maybe if they're made of chinesium, but those tools have no business being near a motorbike (nor do 5/8" bolts for undoing socket screws but to each their own). Some people overthink things, others just get on with it. And you know what they say : slappy valves are happy valves 

[JettaKnight]

Turns out...you can find a 14 mm alllen socket, or even an Allen wrench....all over the place....home depot, lowes, NAPA, advance auto, auto zone etc....all in the $5 to $15 range!


For that cheap, it is well worth picking up one, and keep in the tool box, and use the correct tool for the job....

Not worth my time to set up a bolt with nuts on it...


Cookie

Must be different there... I looked at Lowe's, Advance, Menards... only found one in a set of hex drivers at Harbor Freight.

[ceekay]

Must be different there... I looked at Lowe's, Advance, Menards... only found one in a set of hex drivers at Harbor Freight.

 autozone, napa, amazon. $8.

[ROVERMAN]

Unless anyone has already mentioned it, 9/16th is equivalent to 14mm. Might be easier to find.
Roverman.

[RavRed]

(nor do 5/8" bolts for undoing socket screws but to each their own).

Whatever dude, I was just giving a tip I found online for someone who may be cheap / in a pinch / 1/2way through job and need to finish. 

[RavRed]

only found one in a set of hex drivers at Harbor Freight.

That's the one I use!

[phunky1]

Looks like final answer if you want to be right, counter clockwise.  Thanks Dorman!  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_JbGaJOwuP8

And another good video from RE on doing the "tappets" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IuI5y8tnG-M&t

[goody59]

Definitive answer. Counter clockwise when you are looking at it doing the rotating. Counter clockwise.

[mwmosser]

Looks like final answer if you want to be right, counter clockwise.  Thanks Dorman!  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_JbGaJOwuP8

And another good video from RE on doing the "tappets" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IuI5y8tnG-M&t

I enjoyed his take on it. Apparently he got LOTS of comments below his video. Welcome to the internet. But glad he got the definitive word from RE. Now they should fix the manual.

[twocoolgliders]

The manual is not wrong!   The manual does not even say which way to turn the crank DURING VALVE ADJUSTMENT !!!

The reference in the manual to clockwise, has to do with the assembly of the parts, not the adjustment of the valves.  This reference comes in the section BEFORE the adjustment of the valves......people just wrongly carried over the clockwise turn to the next section of the manual.

Most, if not all, experienced mechanics will turn the engine in the same direction as it "normally" runs, in this case anti-clockwise!


But.....Am I the only one who sees the incorrect drawing of the timing marks on the cams?

If you try to do what you see in the drawings, regarding the lining up of the marks, it is impossible!

Again, an experienced mechanic would not even look at the drawings, he would understand  how to line up the marks properly without a drawing!


Cookie

I enjoyed his take on it. Apparently he got LOTS of comments below his video. Welcome to the internet. But glad he got the definitive word from RE. Now they should fix the manual.

[Jared_Lee]

That was my thought this entire time, Cookie. The manual does not instruct you to turn the crank clockwise to turn the engine over during valve adjustment. It just doesn't tell you to turn it counterclockwise either. At that point, use conventional mechanics on what is a completely conventional motor and move on. But I guess we can now breathe a sigh of relief that RE confirmed the motor turns over in the direction it "should"?

[twocoolgliders]

Yes, put to rest..so I can sleep at night.

You know there are (young) students in my motorcycle classes than don't understand "clockwise"?  Or when we say put the petcock to the 9 o'clock position?  They only know digital clocks!!!

But I still can't sleep at night, what with the manual's drawings of the timing marks on the camshaft drawn incorrectly!!!

And I can't even cause a big discussion or controversy on the subject!!!!

Oh well....


Cookie

That was my thought this entire time, Cookie. The manual does not instruct you to turn the crank clockwise to turn the engine over during valve adjustment. It just doesn't tell you to turn it counterclockwise either. At that point, use conventional mechanics on what is a completely conventional motor and move on. But I guess we can now breathe a sigh of relief that RE confirmed the motor turns over in the direction it "should"?

[phunky1]

Did my 12k valve adjustment today (myself) and almost all needed to be tightened up slightly.

[Starpeve]

Did my 12k valve adjustment today (myself) and almost all needed to be tightened up slightly.

Better loose than right I reckon

[JettaKnight]

1 question.  I, as many others are watching and following Stuart Fillingham's very informative youtube video.  All youtubers are saying the crankshaft must be only turned anti-clockwise.  While the service manual says the complete opposite.  I have already turned my crankshaft anti-clockwise and now wondering if I made a mistake?  Anyone know which way the crankshaft should be turned?

Some say Counter-clockwise, because that's the proper way to say it. 

[Starpeve]

Some say Counter-clockwise, because that's the proper way to say it. 

I do love a linguistician...

[Haggisman]

I speak perfect English so long as no one is listening!

[Starpeve]

I speak perfect English so long as no one is listening!

My second ( or possibly first ) language is one which I like to describe as Manglish.
Ah writes smart, but ah talks stoopid.

[gizzo]

Better loose than right I reckon

Slappy valves are Happy valves.

[0750turbo]

Hello.  First off, thank you to interest specific forums like this one and YouTube for all of the wannabee DIYers like me.  I purchase a GT 650 about a month and have enjoyed doing quite a bit of modifications to it. 

To the point, I read through this thread thoroughly and also watched some of the videos on this process and just wanted to provide my experience for a couple things - the gasket and the torquing of the valve cover bolts.

Before I removed the bolts I used a process I've used before when I don't know what the torque is supposed to be.  I this case, I've read that the recommended 12 Nm can be too much but someone in the thread said they used 8 and it worked fine.  What I did was set my torque wrench at 8 and then check all four and as expected all four "clicked" on my wrench indicating they were tighter then 8. I then set at 10 and it again clicked so I decided that during re-assembly I would use 10 which would get me closer to 12 than 8 for a little more comfort.

Regarding the gasket, I left it attached to the cylinder head when removing the cover so I didn't have to worry about re-sealing the half-moon part of the gasket.  I'm not sure if the gasket gods were smiling on me or what but getting the cover back on and lined up with the gasket took about 5 minutes.  As I said above, I tightened to 8 and then 10 and when I started it there weren't any leaks.  I then did the oil change (I am an Amsoil guy) and it took right at what the manual indicates which is 3.25 quarts.  This put it back from what I could tell pretty much exactly where it was before.  I'm confident in that because I've been "parking" it on a wheel check after ever ride which is attached to my car lift because I've been checking all of the fasteners that I took on and off when doing mods to make sure they aren't coming loose.

As far as removing the cover, I did loosen the top 12mm nuts that hold on the horns but didn't remove them altogether.  I found that this was the best of both worlds as it allowed me to swing them forward about an inch which helped get the cover out easily but didn't have to take them off altogether the disconnect the electricals connections.

Lastly, I'm very paranoid about anything getting into the motor so I did not remove the spark plugs.  I did turn the crank counter-clockwise and just went real slow.  You can hear the compression happening and when it releases.  I found taking it slow was no problem and the torque I had to apply was very slight to turn the crank.

Anyhow, I just wanted to post up and share. 

Again, thank you for a cool site.  I will post a picture once I get the back-end done which should be in a week or two once my new seat is completed. 

Craig

[6504me]

Slappy valves are Happy valves.

If you can't hear 'em they're burning

[Karl Fenn]

Well frankly l would never rotate anti-clockwise, because rotating backwards does not take out back lash, l would put it in low gear and go it on the wheel method, l'm not sure if there are any TDC marks on the engine but you must find TDC both valves closed, you must remove both plugs and insert guage if no timing marks present, as for the cover fasteners l have mentioned this before they are known for braking and striping threads, if this happens you will have to helicoil or sleave the old thread, you only get one bite of the cherry with this so it has to be done right, the valves must be set cold best leaving bike to stand overnight, bolts need to be tightened very lightly and just nip up the cover gasket no more, l would use a 1/4 inch torque wrench and tighten to a 1/4 lower book value, these fasteners are a very weak point. On the old Brit bikes you had a similar issue, some would strip using a short Alan key, l have a short cycle torque wrench which goes up to 10 NM l keep for jobs such as this, BMW rocker bolts can also soon strip they are a 6mm, but an easy job of just replacing the bolt and nut.

[Karl Fenn]

God don't talk about Suzuki  l had a shimmed gs 750 in the 80's it used to take half a day to adjust then you had to order the new shims, if you want the altermate  challenge try the BMW gs 650 you have to remove both cams and timing chain a really long job. That's why they charge 500 to do it, personally l hate shimed clearances. If your maths has gone a bit rusty you need a quick brush up shims are not cheap.

[NVDucati]

Hello.  First off, thank you to interest specific forums like this one and YouTube for all of the wannabee DIYers like me.  I purchase a GT 650 about a month and have enjoyed doing quite a bit of modifications to it. 

To the point, I read through this thread thoroughly and also watched some of the videos on this process and just wanted to provide my experience for a couple things - the gasket and the torquing of the valve cover bolts.

Before I removed the bolts I used a process I've used before when I don't know what the torque is supposed to be.  I this case, I've read that the recommended 12 Nm can be too much but someone in the thread said they used 8 and it worked fine.  What I did was set my torque wrench at 8 and then check all four and as expected all four "clicked" on my wrench indicating they were tighter then 8. I then set at 10 and it again clicked so I decided that during re-assembly I would use 10 which would get me closer to 12 than 8 for a little more comfort.

Regarding the gasket, I left it attached to the cylinder head when removing the cover so I didn't have to worry about re-sealing the half-moon part of the gasket.  I'm not sure if the gasket gods were smiling on me or what but getting the cover back on and lined up with the gasket took about 5 minutes.  As I said above, I tightened to 8 and then 10 and when I started it there weren't any leaks.  I then did the oil change (I am an Amsoil guy) and it took right at what the manual indicates which is 3.25 quarts.  This put it back from what I could tell pretty much exactly where it was before.  I'm confident in that because I've been "parking" it on a wheel check after ever ride which is attached to my car lift because I've been checking all of the fasteners that I took on and off when doing mods to make sure they aren't coming loose.

As far as removing the cover, I did loosen the top 12mm nuts that hold on the horns but didn't remove them altogether.  I found that this was the best of both worlds as it allowed me to swing them forward about an inch which helped get the cover out easily but didn't have to take them off altogether the disconnect the electricals connections.

Lastly, I'm very paranoid about anything getting into the motor so I did not remove the spark plugs.  I did turn the crank counter-clockwise and just went real slow.  You can hear the compression happening and when it releases.  I found taking it slow was no problem and the torque I had to apply was very slight to turn the crank.

Anyhow, I just wanted to post up and share. 

Again, thank you for a cool site.  I will post a picture once I get the back-end done which should be in a week or two once my new seat is completed. 

Craig

Good to hear that it went well. And that you read through the thread in advance is always a sign of good caricature . Welcome to the forum ... pretty cool bike, huh.

[Karl Fenn]

Yea it was cool and very fast, mind you at top end it did go a bit light on front end l did a bit of touring on that bike l did like it, the gs is ok for a 650 will do about a ton, but not the best off road, which l mainly used to use it for, its a 2,000 model l have not used it in a few years but still have it, l bought it cheap but in very good cosmetic condition, but the rad was leaking, water pump seals gone chain was bad, l got it up and running in a few months, but they are a complex bike a lot to take off to fix them.

[Dexter]

Just as a comparison, the Honda ST1100 has the same type of shoulder bolts holding its valve covers on. The Honda Service Manual calls for 9 ft-lb of torque on those bolts and reports of stripped threads did occur in the early years of production, because of gorilla handed DIY'ers, without a manual. That was in the early '90's and people are much more educated about that issue now.

I would think that's what is happening here with the dwindling reports and possibly, Honda's spec for that bolt might be wiser than RE.

[zimmemr]

Tight is tight and too tight is broke, I just snug the valve cover bolts up, I've seen a lot of small bolts like that strip the threads when a toque wrench was used, even though it was set correctly, I've even done it myself a time or two. Sometimes you just have to go by feel.

[DaveC]

using inch feelers to do metric gaps on RE valves....

Spec. is .08mm intake and .18mm exhaust


inch feelers:

.003 = .076mm
.007 = .178mm

Plenty close enough

Easier way to check:

.003 is a "go"    .004 is a no go
.007 is a go       .008 is a no go


Easy, cheap....done...go ride!


Cookie

also for you just now considering doing your own work, feeler gauges, so you know they make them similar but different. this is what you may find.

[NVDucati]

also for you just now considering doing your own work, feeler gauges, so you know they make them similar but different. this is what you may find.

+1 Good point. Welcome to the forum.
To underline your point, cardiac stents have a greater variance

[lucky phil]

Hello.  First off, thank you to interest specific forums like this one and YouTube for all of the wannabee DIYers like me.  I purchase a GT 650 about a month and have enjoyed doing quite a bit of modifications to it. 

To the point, I read through this thread thoroughly and also watched some of the videos on this process and just wanted to provide my experience for a couple things - the gasket and the torquing of the valve cover bolts.

Before I removed the bolts I used a process I've used before when I don't know what the torque is supposed to be.  I this case, I've read that the recommended 12 Nm can be too much but someone in the thread said they used 8 and it worked fine.  What I did was set my torque wrench at 8 and then check all four and as expected all four "clicked" on my wrench indicating they were tighter then 8. I then set at 10 and it again clicked so I decided that during re-assembly I would use 10 which would get me closer to 12 than 8 for a little more comfort.

Regarding the gasket, I left it attached to the cylinder head when removing the cover so I didn't have to worry about re-sealing the half-moon part of the gasket.  I'm not sure if the gasket gods were smiling on me or what but getting the cover back on and lined up with the gasket took about 5 minutes.  As I said above, I tightened to 8 and then 10 and when I started it there weren't any leaks.  I then did the oil change (I am an Amsoil guy) and it took right at what the manual indicates which is 3.25 quarts.  This put it back from what I could tell pretty much exactly where it was before.  I'm confident in that because I've been "parking" it on a wheel check after ever ride which is attached to my car lift because I've been checking all of the fasteners that I took on and off when doing mods to make sure they aren't coming loose.

As far as removing the cover, I did loosen the top 12mm nuts that hold on the horns but didn't remove them altogether.  I found that this was the best of both worlds as it allowed me to swing them forward about an inch which helped get the cover out easily but didn't have to take them off altogether the disconnect the electricals connections.

Lastly, I'm very paranoid about anything getting into the motor so I did not remove the spark plugs.  I did turn the crank counter-clockwise and just went real slow.  You can hear the compression happening and when it releases.  I found taking it slow was no problem and the torque I had to apply was very slight to turn the crank.

Anyhow, I just wanted to post up and share. 

Again, thank you for a cool site.  I will post a picture once I get the back-end done which should be in a week or two once my new seat is completed. 

Craig

Well nice theory but unfortunately this methodology doesn't really work unless the bolt is significantly under torqued. Because of the thread friction even a bolt that's originally torqued to 8nm will probably set off a wrench set to 10 or even more before the bolt moves due to the thread friction. This is why when we retorque a cylinder head when using the older style composite gaskets that relax after a few heat cycles we back off the head bolts/nuts one at a time and pull them back up again to full torque. So when I retorque  head nuts I paint mark all the nuts and back them off one at a time and pull them back up again to the torque spec or angle depending, but lets stick to torque. They generally rotate an extra 30 degrees or so depending on various factors. if I set the final torque on the wrench and simply apply it to the head nuts initially without the backing off process they wont move at all although they are under torqued simply because the thread friction is too high. So your process will tell you if the bolt has been seriously under torqued but thats about all.

Ciao

[fireypete]

I had never checked any engine valves before the 650. Followed the vids, took my time and I'm very pleased with the results. A marked improvement. So go for it. I have a small chrome horn not the 2 big ones, I undid that and rolled the cover towards the front of the bike and the cover came off easy. I used permanent grey gasket sealer on the cover to hold the gasket in place. Applied with a syringe for accurate application, that stuff is sticky. It's made for that application so it won't dry out and get brittle and fall into your engine next time nor will it attack a rubber gasket. Turned mine counter clockwise. When finished, all done and happy, just check the LHS throttle body for a small rubber hose that fits on a nipple. It can get pulled off lifting the ABS block. Think I posted about this here....or netrider. As far as cover bolts I hand tightened mine, just went by feel. It's a good gasket and with a bit of sealant it's not going to leak so go easy  Oh the bolts have small washers that usually stay on the cover, I removed them and put a smear of permeated on each to ensure a good seal

[whippers]

I did mine too recently. Only one clearance was in spec at 500km. I didn’t remove the horns but will next time just to make it a little easier. I just used sealant on the left hand half circle and hand torqued the bolts after reading about snapping them. Good point on the small washers.  One of mine came lose and I didn’t notice so I needed to remove one bolt and refit it.

[fireypete]

Permanent.  Permeated.  Meant to be Permatex! Grey gasket seal, it never sets. Good stuff.

[supercub]

I just did my 300 mile tappet check. I removed the tank and blocked up the abs control. The exhausts were pretty close but the intakes only had .001" clearance. I made a screw bit for the tappet, I drilled a hole across a #2 flat screwdriver socket bit and pressed a dowel pin thru it. I used a piece of copper tubing on the end of the pin to get some leverage. I adhered the gasket to the cover, holding it down with wood scraps until cured, I initially fought with the gasket but it wasn't going to stay in place. I adhered the cover washers also. The cover barely slid under the frame with gasket on, but it worked. I still have the oil change and bolt torquing to do, a good project for today as it's raining out.

[fireypete]

Good project for when it's raining. Isn't it cool (well,it is for me) to have a bike to not only ride but to work on as well? Holistic!

[supercub]

That's the cool thing about the GT, you only have to ride 300 miles to get to wrench on it! It's great that I can work on it myself, not so complicated and fun too.