Unofficial Royal Enfield Community Forum

Royal Enfield Motorcycles => 650 Twin - Interceptor/GT => Topic started by: Gremlinsteve on January 27, 2021, 03:03:43 am

Title: Who’s running the 16 tooth sprocket
Post by: Gremlinsteve on January 27, 2021, 03:03:43 am
Are you able to reuse the stock chain ?
Title: Re: Who’s running the 16 tooth sprocket
Post by: Starpeve on January 27, 2021, 03:33:58 am
Are you able to reuse the stock chain ?
Yep. Easiest mod you can do!
Title: Re: Who’s running the 16 tooth sprocket
Post by: daytonadean on January 27, 2021, 07:32:59 pm
https://chainsandsprockets.co.uk/

£9.27 with uk free delivery
Title: Re: Who’s running the 16 tooth sprocket
Post by: biscot on January 27, 2021, 09:34:57 pm
May I ask why you are doing this and how it is affecting performance, etc.
Title: Re: Who’s running the 16 tooth sprocket
Post by: Jack Straw on January 27, 2021, 10:20:47 pm
Going up a tooth on the countershaft sprocket will give you slightly lower rpm at cruising speed.  Typically one tooth will drop the revs around 450 rpm at 60 mph in top gear.  Such "higher gearing" will slightly reduce acceleration but make for  somewhat more tranquil highway cruising and possibly improve MPG under some circumstances.

Going down a tooth, say to a 14 has the opposite effect.
Title: Re: Who’s running the 16 tooth sprocket
Post by: Gremlinsteve on January 27, 2021, 10:47:48 pm
I feel it’s a better choice for my current 865 cc build
Title: Re: Who’s running the 16 tooth sprocket
Post by: biscot on January 27, 2021, 10:59:17 pm
So I gather the stock sprocket is 15T.
Is that easier/better/cheaper than changing the rear sprocket?
Title: Re: Who’s running the 16 tooth sprocket
Post by: Jack Straw on January 28, 2021, 12:19:29 am
Yeah, it's usually less hassle than changing the rear, cheaper too. 
Title: Re: Who’s running the 16 tooth sprocket
Post by: Gremlinsteve on January 28, 2021, 12:22:08 am
I agree
Plus I already have the front sprocket
Ready to install
Title: Re: Who’s running the 16 tooth sprocket
Post by: Starpeve on January 28, 2021, 03:02:32 am
So I gather the stock sprocket is 15T.
Is that easier/better/cheaper than changing the rear sprocket?
Easier and cheaper by far. Contrary to the theoretical reduction in acceleration, I feel that my bike is now quicker due to the  better gearing. Some will argue this point, but most that do haven’t done the swap. BTW my dressed weight is about 80 kg.
To me, the bike feels nicer now in 2nd and 3rd, where acceleration-wise is mainly where it’s needed.
Only a small change, but effective.
And it’s such a cheap and simple thing to do that it’s easily reversed if you don’t like it!
Title: Re: Who’s running the 16 tooth sprocket
Post by: biscot on January 28, 2021, 10:42:15 am
Sounds like it’s worth a try, I think I’ll give it a go. Thanks.
Title: Re: Who’s running the 16 tooth sprocket
Post by: RecoilRob on June 20, 2021, 03:45:25 am
Just installed the 16T countershaft sprocket and the bike really has taken to it well.   No more trying to shift into '7th' gear and the gearing in 5th now is almost identical to the stock 15T in 6th.   Engine pulls the additional gearing just fine and to my senses it feels happier with the slightly taller gear.   60 mph is showing 3600 revs in 6th and I've always liked tall gearing....because you can always downshift if you want more revs but once you've run out of gears you can't upshift to lower them.   Stock chain fit just fine and the 17T might actually fit...but unless the motor finds more torque I'm going to leave it at 16T...a very happy setup.
Title: Re: Who’s running the 16 tooth sprocket
Post by: Starpeve on June 20, 2021, 06:31:21 am
Just installed the 16T countershaft sprocket and the bike really has taken to it well.   No more trying to shift into '7th' gear and the gearing in 5th now is almost identical to the stock 15T in 6th.   Engine pulls the additional gearing just fine and to my senses it feels happier with the slightly taller gear.   60 mph is showing 3600 revs in 6th and I've always liked tall gearing....because you can always downshift if you want more revs but once you've run out of gears you can't upshift to lower them.   Stock chain fit just fine and the 17T might actually fit...but unless the motor finds more torque I'm going to leave it at 16T...a very happy setup.
Apparently the chain’s too short for 17. Not much room in there either. I copped a lot of grief ( and some support) a while back about my theorising about the taller gearing, before I’d done it. I love it, I think it’s a great improvement, things are better positioned everywhere, hated the short first. 2nd and 3rd are now closer to where I like them, etc. I’m still casually toying with the idea of, come replacement time, going 2 teeth down on the rear. As it is, contrary to speculative opinion, I reckon the bike’s quicker down low because of the better gear placement. What you MAY lose (if at all) on first you gain on 2nd.
Mind you, I’m only 72 kg and don’t take pillions.
Title: Re: Who’s running the 16 tooth sprocket
Post by: Starpeve on June 20, 2021, 06:33:49 am
Sorry, just realised I’m repeating myself! And that I weighed myself the other day and I’m lighter than I thought! Obviously the beer gut isn’t as heavy as I’d anticipated!
Title: Re: Who’s running the 16 tooth sprocket
Post by: CPJS on June 20, 2021, 07:03:24 am
https://chainsandsprockets.co.uk/

£9.27 with uk free delivery
Do you have a part number please.
I tried looking it up without success.
Title: Re: Who’s running the 16 tooth sprocket
Post by: Starpeve on June 20, 2021, 07:34:26 am
Do you have a part number please.
I tried looking it up without success.
Have you tried Hitchcock’s site?
Title: Re: Who’s running the 16 tooth sprocket
Post by: CPJS on June 20, 2021, 10:55:49 am
Have you tried Hitchcock’s site?
Yes, nearly 3 times the price of that mentioned on the link.
Title: Re: Who’s running the 16 tooth sprocket
Post by: Breezin on June 20, 2021, 12:08:29 pm
The discussion here and elsewhere is pretty convincing in favour of the 16. But I have a slight hesitation as to riding context. Here, my riding is 90% bends and twisties, with very few long, straight runs. I wonder if it would work as well.
Title: Re: Who’s running the 16 tooth sprocket
Post by: NVDucati on June 20, 2021, 12:57:19 pm
The discussion here and elsewhere is pretty convincing in favour of the 16. But I have a slight hesitation as to riding context. Here, my riding is 90% bends and twisties, with very few long, straight runs. I wonder if it would work as well.
Unless you frequently need to use 1st gear in a turn ... I can't see any big hardship. You will just adjust your style, over time. I haven't installed mine yet just 'cause been busy. Personally, I'm from the school that prefers lower RPM / higher corner speed "calmness" through the mid-turn. And it is a low cost / effort / reversible modification.
Title: Re: Who’s running the 16 tooth sprocket
Post by: Blazes Boylan on June 20, 2021, 01:51:35 pm
The discussion here and elsewhere is pretty convincing in favour of the 16. But I have a slight hesitation as to riding context. Here, my riding is 90% bends and twisties, with very few long, straight runs. I wonder if it would work as well.

If I lived in the country and had quick access to bends and twisties I might be content with the stock sprocket.  Trying to get out of New York City while keeping a new bike under 4000 rpm made feel like I was driving a tractor on the freeway.  With the 16-t sprocket I can comfortably cruise at 65 without feeling like I'm sacrificing anything in the way of acceleration.  The bike has more than enough pep at the low end.
Title: Re: Who’s running the 16 tooth sprocket
Post by: Jack Straw on June 20, 2021, 02:19:57 pm
+1 on the 16. I don't do long distances but I just like the slightly lower revs at 65 mph.  Honestly after just a couple of rides I didn't notice any difference  beyond the slightly taller first gear.
Title: Re: Who’s running the 16 tooth sprocket
Post by: Blazes Boylan on June 20, 2021, 02:48:29 pm
And having a taller first gear in an urban setting is actually beneficial.  I often find myself going several blocks in traffic without ever leaving first gear.  With the stock sprocket I'd shift into second only to immediately shift down again.
Title: Re: Who’s running the 16 tooth sprocket
Post by: gregrb41 on June 20, 2021, 04:52:24 pm
I changed to 16t. There are no downsides whatsoever, solo or pillion, town or country - it's all upside.. It would be a good idea for RE to make this standard.
Title: Re: Who’s running the 16 tooth sprocket
Post by: whippers on June 20, 2021, 09:14:40 pm
Interesting discussion. I haven’t got much seat time yet, however my first ride in the twisties I certainly wasn’t thinking what this bike needs is taller gearing.

I can understand it if you want a more relaxed engine at highway speeds but I’m typically not doing that kind of work on this bike and I like riding a bike that doesn’t encourage me to go faster all the time.

As to commuting I’m never in first  except for moving off. Second seems very good for slow speed filtering. The bike feels happy in even 5th at 35mph which to me is very impressive.

In the Ducati world everyone gears them down (me included).

Maybe the fact the power delivery is so biased to the middle and there is no benefit to revving it taller gearing makes sense in this case.
Title: Re: Who’s running the 16 tooth sprocket
Post by: Starpeve on June 20, 2021, 09:24:27 pm
And having a taller first gear in an urban setting is actually beneficial.  I often find myself going several blocks in traffic without ever leaving first gear.  With the stock sprocket I'd shift into second only to immediately shift down again.
Exactly! And it’s the same in twisties BTW.
Title: Re: Who’s running the 16 tooth sprocket
Post by: whippers on June 20, 2021, 09:49:59 pm
Exactly! And it’s the same in twisties BTW.

They must be some twisties if you need first gear!  :D
Title: Re: Who’s running the 16 tooth sprocket
Post by: Hoiho on June 20, 2021, 10:16:26 pm
Be interesting to see if the folk that gear up have any significant hills on their regular rides. I can see the benefit for flat-landers, but my backyard is littered with large lumps
Title: Re: Who’s running the 16 tooth sprocket
Post by: Jack Straw on June 20, 2021, 11:20:08 pm
I have had no problems relative to grades, slow or fast.  Getting to the highway from my house I have a, narrow, formidable grade to ascend and the bike pulls beautifully at 35 to 40 in 4th gear   Out on the highway it always surprises me by easily edging up past 80 on long steep grades.  I doubt I'll ever feel the need to go back to the 15 tooth sprocket.

This is with a fairly inexpensive aftermarket exhaust made by a mere pipe-bender. No dyno sheets,  no booster plug, no boutique air filter either  ::)
Title: Re: Who’s running the 16 tooth sprocket
Post by: AzCal Retred on June 20, 2021, 11:41:32 pm
Another plus to upsizing the countershaft sprocket is the possibility of increased chain life. Less angular bending as it rounds the sprocket. I believe that below 17T is where this angularity really starts to affect chain life. The 500 Bullet was designed in the 1950's to be maintenance friendly, it comes with a 17T countershaft stock. Of course, general cleanliness, proper lubrication & adjustment are likely of more practical import than a theoretical 17T limit, but it couldn't hurt.
Title: Re: Who’s running the 16 tooth sprocket
Post by: Starpeve on June 20, 2021, 11:47:11 pm
They must be some twisties if you need first gear!  :D
I meant that the taller 2nd is great for the twisties!
Title: Re: Who’s running the 16 tooth sprocket
Post by: RecoilRob on June 21, 2021, 01:03:18 am
The cam profile on the 650 is so mild that mine will pull without complaint from 2000 rpm in 6th...with the 16T sprocket.   It can't pull hard down that low, but compared to my Suzuki SV1K it's a veritable tractor.   The Suzuki won't have anything to do with any kind of throttling beyond maintenance on level road at 3000 and 4000 is minimum for full WOT.   I believe the Ducati's are much the same...when something is cammed, valved and ported to run to 11,000 rpm the flow just doesn't work well down so close to idle.

I've got the S&S cam ordered and am curious how it will affect the powerband.   Reports say it softens the bottom end below 3500 or so which makes total sense, but looking at the specs I'm thinking the motor will still be very happy to run at ridiculously low rpm without breaking a sweat.   Thinking about it I'm going to order the 17T just for S&G to see if it'll fit and how it runs once we fit it.   Might need a new longer chain but that's no problem...we'll have the stock one for a spare which is always nice to have. :)

Edit:  I just found a 17T-36 combination with chain on Ebay so it'll be on the way soon.   Having multiple sprocket options we'll be able to see how it handles different combinations.   If we want to sneak up on the increases we don't have to jump to the tallest gearing straight away....we'll see how it goes once the package gets here.
Title: Re: Who’s running the 16 tooth sprocket
Post by: whippers on June 21, 2021, 01:57:25 am
Please tell us how the cam goes. I am interested in that but maybe with hi comp pistons to compensate for losing the bottom.

Also to those with 16 how is fuel economy same or even better?
Title: Re: Who’s running the 16 tooth sprocket
Post by: Starpeve on June 21, 2021, 02:10:18 am
The cam profile on the 650 is so mild that mine will pull without complaint from 2000 rpm in 6th...with the 16T sprocket.   It can't pull hard down that low, but compared to my Suzuki SV1K it's a veritable tractor.   The Suzuki won't have anything to do with any kind of throttling beyond maintenance on level road at 3000 and 4000 is minimum for full WOT.   I believe the Ducati's are much the same...when something is cammed, valved and ported to run to 11,000 rpm the flow just doesn't work well down so close to idle.

I've got the S&S cam ordered and am curious how it will affect the powerband.   Reports say it softens the bottom end below 3500 or so which makes total sense, but looking at the specs I'm thinking the motor will still be very happy to run at ridiculously low rpm without breaking a sweat.   Thinking about it I'm going to order the 17T just for S&G to see if it'll fit and how it runs once we fit it.   Might need a new longer chain but that's no problem...we'll have the stock one for a spare which is always nice to have. :)

Edit:  I just found a 17T-36 combination with chain on Ebay so it'll be on the way soon.   Having multiple sprocket options we'll be able to see how it handles different combinations.   If we want to sneak up on the increases we don't have to jump to the tallest gearing straight away....we'll see how it goes once the package gets here.
Excellent! You should get away with the same chain if you’re reducing the rear and fitting the 17 to the front. Can’t wait for the feedback!👍
Title: Re: Who’s running the 16 tooth sprocket
Post by: Jon_98 on June 21, 2021, 02:17:27 am
I live in the Blue Ridge Mountains in western North Carolina. Twisties are my world. The 16 tooth has made a huge difference. I spent so much time shifting between 2nd, 3rd and 4th with the stock 15T, now I can practically live in 3rd gear except for the tightest hairpins or occasional straightaway.
Title: Re: Who’s running the 16 tooth sprocket
Post by: RecoilRob on June 21, 2021, 07:53:56 am
Please tell us how the cam goes. I am interested in that but maybe with hi comp pistons to compensate for losing the bottom.

Also to those with 16 how is fuel economy same or even better?

Fuel economy is excellent...certainly no worse in my case than with the 15T.   Today's fill-up saw 70.7 mpg's...that's US gallons too.   Can't say I'm not impressed by the frugality of this bike!   Amazing....:)
Title: Re: Who’s running the 16 tooth sprocket
Post by: Breezin on June 21, 2021, 09:46:42 am
The scientific and technical case for 16 teeth is well and truly made.

Also, 'just for S & G'. I had to think about that one!  ;D
Title: Re: Who’s running the 16 tooth sprocket
Post by: YellowDuck on June 21, 2021, 02:21:42 pm
This is definitely a change I will make eventually because 1st is stupid short.  Runs out of revs much too quickly when starting from a standstill, and the bike is pretty much impossible to stall anyway, with so much low end torque and a clutch engagement over a very wide range.

What I don't get though is why the difference from 5th to 6th is so small?  You are turning just over 4k at 60 mph (indicated), shift up, and now you are turning just under.  Like, JUST under.  I think they botched this a little in the design.  According to the manual the difference when you shift from 5th to 6th is 1.040 to 0.962, which is 7.5%.  So at 4000 rpm it drops the revs by 300......from about 4150 to 3850.  I mean, why bother?
Title: Re: Who’s running the 16 tooth sprocket
Post by: Bibbage on June 21, 2021, 02:57:02 pm
https://chainsandsprockets.co.uk/

£9.27 with uk free delivery

Which one did you get, I emailed them they said they didn’t have the fitment info so couldn’t match one up!
Title: Re: Who’s running the 16 tooth sprocket
Post by: drums4money on June 21, 2021, 03:23:54 pm
Which one did you get, I emailed them they said they didn’t have the fitment info so couldn’t match one up!

same here- the link prompts for vehicle make and naturally RE isn't listed.
i notice the Hitchcock's item has the rubber cushion ring for the chain.  I'm certainly interested after having read the numerous positive experiences from the group.

Title: Re: Who’s running the 16 tooth sprocket
Post by: CPJS on June 21, 2021, 07:22:15 pm
I have just ordered a 16 tooth sprocket from Hitchcocks, I will report back as and when.
Title: Re: Who’s running the 16 tooth sprocket
Post by: Hoiho on June 21, 2021, 09:34:36 pm
Are are re-using the bent locking washer?
Title: Re: Who’s running the 16 tooth sprocket
Post by: Jack Straw on June 21, 2021, 10:43:51 pm
Yep, I reused mine.
Title: Re: Who’s running the 16 tooth sprocket
Post by: RecoilRob on June 21, 2021, 11:11:06 pm
This is definitely a change I will make eventually because 1st is stupid short.  Runs out of revs much too quickly when starting from a standstill, and the bike is pretty much impossible to stall anyway, with so much low end torque and a clutch engagement over a very wide range.

What I don't get though is why the difference from 5th to 6th is so small?  You are turning just over 4k at 60 mph (indicated), shift up, and now you are turning just under.  Like, JUST under.  I think they botched this a little in the design.  According to the manual the difference when you shift from 5th to 6th is 1.040 to 0.962, which is 7.5%.  So at 4000 rpm it drops the revs by 300......from about 4150 to 3850.  I mean, why bother?

The gearing from 5th to 6th wasn't chosen for cruising at 60 mph, it is so at redline or power peak in 5th the revs will only drop down the power curve a little so it doesn't drop clear off and also reduces the speed difference because peak in 5th is really close to top speed...and in some cases it IS top speed and 6th just for cruising at Autobahn speeds.

Pretty much all 'close ratio' gearboxes tighten up as you go up in gears until the top two or three will be pretty close together as you're at a speed that's demanding all the power you've got so only a bit more speed is to be had.   I know...talking about 'top speed' with the 650's sounds a little daft but there ARE people who are interested in getting all that can be had...and the gearbox is made for them.
Title: Re: Who’s running the 16 tooth sprocket
Post by: ATXConti650 on June 22, 2021, 03:44:47 pm
Are you able to reuse the stock chain ?

After reading these posts I ordered a 16T sprocket from Hitchcocks. Their site says OE chain can be used with it.
Title: Re: Who’s running the 16 tooth sprocket
Post by: CPJS on June 22, 2021, 05:12:13 pm
After reading these posts I ordered a 16T sprocket from Hitchcocks. Their site says OE chain can be used with it.
Just fitted my 16t sprocket. Plenty of chain adjustment to spare.
The nut holding the sprocket on was effing tight!
I'm going out for a ride tomorrow to see what the difference is like.
Title: Re: Who’s running the 16 tooth sprocket
Post by: whippers on June 22, 2021, 08:50:20 pm
Just fitted my 16t sprocket. Plenty of chain adjustment to spare.
The nut holding the sprocket on was effing tight!
I'm going out for a ride tomorrow to see what the difference is like.

Please report back. I’m interested.
Title: Re: Who’s running the 16 tooth sprocket
Post by: Starpeve on June 23, 2021, 09:31:33 pm
Another bonus of the larger front is that I read somewhere whilst researching the swap that the 15 tooth front is right on the critical point of sprocket/ chain minimum size .
Title: Re: Who’s running the 16 tooth sprocket
Post by: CPJS on June 23, 2021, 11:06:21 pm
Another bonus of the larger front is that I read somewhere whilst researching the swap that the 15 tooth front is right on the critical point of sprocket/ chain minimum size .
14 teeth on a front sprocket is common so 15t is no problem.
Title: Re: Who’s running the 16 tooth sprocket
Post by: Starpeve on June 23, 2021, 11:27:44 pm
14 teeth on a front sprocket is common so 15t is no problem.
Maybe it had something to do with different gauges. It was on a professional website, I don’t recall where. It had to do with excessive chain/ sprocket wear.

Title: Re: Who’s running the 16 tooth sprocket
Post by: Jack Straw on June 23, 2021, 11:40:19 pm
Back when the CB 750 was new (yes, I'm that old) there were a few catastrophic chain failures that resulted in broken crankcases.  I believe Honda determined the small countershaft sprocket was a contributor to the problem.  At Hollywood Honda we did a few of those warranty crankcase R&R jobs.  I personally did at least two of them.  That was a lot of work as pretty much everything in the engine had to come apart.

On our 47 horsepower bikes and modern chains I'd not worry about the issue although I think in theory smaller sprockets may contribute to more chain wear.
Title: Re: Who’s running the 16 tooth sprocket
Post by: CPJS on June 24, 2021, 12:07:18 am
I went out today for a 120ml ride with the new 16th sprocket fitted.
My comments here are relevent to me riding my bike, how I like to ride it, on the roads I like to ride on.
It's difficult to easily describe the difference in feeling with the longer gearing. The gears are lengthened out a bit so you don't need to get rid of the first three gears as soon as you get moving, they have now become usable. The top three gears are much better for faster riding as you now have a choice of gears to use, where as before anything after 70mph it would be top gear.
I would have expected the bike to feel a little less lively with longer gearing, strangely the the bike feels a bit quicker accelerating, I only have that unreliable arse dyno to go by. My thoughts are that as the 650 is a torquey engine the longer gearing keeps it in the torque sweet spot for longer, I don't know, the bike just seems to keep accelerating for longer.
I think that, for me, it is the perfect gearing for my type of riding as the bike feels less buzzy and now when you go for that extra gear it is actually there.
In the interest of science I tried to see if the bike bike would struggle in the top two gears at higher speeds. Not in the slightest, 7200rpm in fifth and 7000rpm in 6th showing 115mph, I don't think I will be going there again in a hurry as after 100mph the bike was rather unstable. An indicated 80mph is now at 4800rpm.
Would the 16tooth front sprocket suit everyone? maybe not, if you do a lot of hilly two up riding or slower city riding the lower gearing might be better.
Any change in fuel consumption? I haven't a clue, maybe when the novelty wears off and I stop riding like an idiot ( unlikely) I may see a difference.
I would say to anyone, give it a go, as it is cheap and easy to do.
Title: Re: Who’s running the 16 tooth sprocket
Post by: Starpeve on June 24, 2021, 12:46:06 am
I went out today for a 120ml ride with the new 16th sprocket fitted.
My comments here are relevent to me riding my bike, how I like to ride it, on the roads I like to ride on.
It's difficult to easily describe the difference in feeling with the longer gearing. The gears are lengthened out a bit so you don't need to get rid of the first three gears as soon as you get moving, they have now become usable. The top three gears are much better for faster riding as you now have a choice of gears to use, where as before anything after 70mph it would be top gear.
I would have expected the bike to feel a little less lively with longer gearing, strangely the the bike feels a bit quicker accelerating, I only have that unreliable arse dyno to go by. My thoughts are that as the 650 is a torquey engine the longer gearing keeps it in the torque sweet spot for longer, I don't know, the bike just seems to keep accelerating for longer.
I think that, for me, it is the perfect gearing for my type of riding as the bike feels less buzzy and now when you go for that extra gear it is actually there.
In the interest of science I tried to see if the bike bike would struggle in the top two gears at higher speeds. Not in the slightest, 7200rpm in fifth and 7000rpm in 6th showing 115mph, I don't think I will be going there again in a hurry as after 100mph the bike was rather unstable. An indicated 80mph is now at 4800rpm.
Would the 16tooth front sprocket suit everyone? maybe not, if you do a lot of hilly two up riding or slower city riding the lower gearing might be better.
Any change in fuel consumption? I haven't a clue, maybe when the novelty wears off and I stop riding like an idiot ( unlikely) I may see a difference.
I would say to anyone, give it a go, as it is cheap and easy to do.
My experience as well.
It’s interesting that you note, as I have stated previously, the bike actually feels MORE lively and quicker in the lower gears, contrary to those who have theorised that taller gearing would have the opposite results. I agree with you about the sweet spot being better positioned, which was precisely what I’d hoped for.
I haven’t stretched mine out to absolute top as you have, but my belief was that the bike would handle it exactly as you have described.
Great feedback, thanks, Steve
Title: Re: Who’s running the 16 tooth sprocket
Post by: Hoiho on June 24, 2021, 06:09:58 am
I ordered a 525 16T and they sent this one below. New White Power Sports (gotta admire the longevity of that company name if nothing else) one has the same base width 7.3mm but the sprocket has a wider tooth profile at the tip of the teeth and the packet say it's for a 530 chain. It sits quite happily in the 525 chain, but I'm concerned it might rub the inner plates if it's not supposed to have that wider tip profile.

I'd have though a 530 sprocket would be wider all over, since the inner plate gap is 3/8" (9.525mm) vs 525 at 5/16" (7.938mm)

What says the hive mind?

(https://i.ibb.co/DKNQVRP/White-Power-16-T.jpg)

(https://i.ibb.co/1sQFWmL/Different-tooth-profile.jpg)
Title: Re: Who’s running the 16 tooth sprocket
Post by: CPJS on June 24, 2021, 07:44:28 am
I ordered a 525 16T and they sent this one below. New White Power Sports (gotta admire the longevity of that company name if nothing else) one has the same base width 7.3mm but the sprocket has a wider tooth profile at the tip of the teeth and the packet say it's for a 530 chain. It sits quite happily in the 525 chain, but I'm concerned it might rub the inner plates if it's not supposed to have that wider tip profile.

I'd have though a 530 sprocket would be wider all over, since the inner plate gap is 3/8" (9.525mm) vs 525 at 5/16" (7.938mm)

What says the hive mind?

(https://i.ibb.co/DKNQVRP/White-Power-16-T.jpg)

(https://i.ibb.co/1sQFWmL/Different-tooth-profile.jpg)
These are not my words, I plucked this from another forum.
Do not use a 530 chain with 525/520 sprockets . You are asking for major problems. there is too much room for the sprocket to move from side to side on the chain and you can destroy the pins/rollers this way. You also will wear the sprockets as well as the sprocket doesn't have to ride in the center of the chain.

You can get away with mix matching like that for a while, but nearly always you wear things out very quick or are asking for disaster.

Keep them all the same size. I wouldn't worry about the tolerances though. It's um "not a bright idea" to mix match like that.

A 530 in a 525 chain doesn't have the clearance either. it will fit, but rub and slowly destroy both products very quickly.
 
Title: Re: Who’s running the 16 tooth sprocket
Post by: Hoiho on June 24, 2021, 07:52:11 am
These are not my words, I plucked this from another forum.
Do not use a 530 chain with 525/520 sprockets . You are asking for major problems. there is too much room for the sprocket to move from side to side on the chain and you can destroy the pins/rollers this way. You also will wear the sprockets as well as the sprocket doesn't have to ride in the center of the chain.

You can get away with mix matching like that for a while, but nearly always you wear things out very quick or are asking for disaster.

Keep them all the same size. I wouldn't worry about the tolerances though. It's um "not a bright idea" to mix match like that.

A 530 in a 525 chain doesn't have the clearance either. it will fit, but rub and slowly destroy both products very quickly.

Thanks CPJS. Did your 16T look to have the same profile as the OEM 15T or did it look like my White Power 16T?  I am puzzled about the width relationship between the too (same width, different tooth shape)
Title: Re: Who’s running the 16 tooth sprocket
Post by: CPJS on June 24, 2021, 08:18:55 am
Thanks CPJS. Did your 16T look to have the same profile as the OEM 15T or did it look like my White Power 16T?  I am puzzled about the width relationship between the too (same width, different tooth shape)
Yes the teeth look the same on both of my sprockets. The 530 sprocket looks to have 'fatter' teeth even though the pitch(distance from tooth tip to tip) is the same.
If you can send it back, do so. Otherwise stick it in the stores and order a 525 sprocket, to run the 530 sprocket will cost you a chain as well.
Title: Re: Who’s running the 16 tooth sprocket
Post by: Hoiho on June 24, 2021, 11:19:21 am
After some google-foo, I'm pretty confident I have a 525 sprocket and the package is mislabeled.

Standard width for 525 sprocket is 7.25mm (some old charts have 0.284" or 7.21mm)
Standard width for 530 sprocket is 9.3mm (some old charts have 0.384" or 8.71mm)

My 16T sprocket
(https://i.ibb.co/7X0cy7P/White-Power-16-T-width.jpg)

Ducati 530 sprocket
(https://i.ibb.co/Wxk25rM/530-Ducati-front-sprocket.png)

Harley chart in ye olde units
(https://i.ibb.co/vZTPrnX/Front-sprocket-dimensions.png)

Renthal guy talking sprockets
(https://i.ibb.co/MNN5BPV/Renthal-sprockets.png)


Title: Re: Who’s running the 16 tooth sprocket
Post by: NVDucati on June 24, 2021, 11:22:36 am
Interesting question, for sure.
I do notice that the package says "Unique Tooth Shape".
I think in the end you will need to contact them directly (https://www.whitespowersports.com/Our-Brands/mtx-sprocket) The internet will only expand the question.

If I recall, you are good at aligning your rear wheel.  ;)
Curious, when you hand roll the new one along the chain under the swingarm ... what do you think?
Title: Re: Who’s running the 16 tooth sprocket
Post by: Hoiho on June 24, 2021, 11:35:56 am
Seems to roll along fine NVD.

This thread shows the differences in width and has a couple of shots comparing 525 and 530 sprockets on a 530 chain. At the bottom of the page he states "a 530 sprocket wouldn't fit inside 525 chain. It's a snug fit in 530 chain."
https://www.mig-welding.co.uk/forum/threads/surface-grinding-to-make-a-motorcycle-sprocket-1-16-thinner.55722/ (https://www.mig-welding.co.uk/forum/threads/surface-grinding-to-make-a-motorcycle-sprocket-1-16-thinner.55722/)
Title: Re: Who’s running the 16 tooth sprocket
Post by: CPJS on June 24, 2021, 03:11:48 pm
After some google-foo, I'm pretty confident I have a 525 sprocket and the package is mislabeled.

Standard width for 525 sprocket is 7.25mm (some old charts have 0.284" or 7.21mm)
Standard width for 530 sprocket is 9.3mm (some old charts have 0.384" or 8.71mm)

My 16T sprocket
(https://i.ibb.co/7X0cy7P/White-Power-16-T-width.jpg)

Ducati 530 sprocket
(https://i.ibb.co/Wxk25rM/530-Ducati-front-sprocket.png)

Harley chart in ye olde units
(https://i.ibb.co/vZTPrnX/Front-sprocket-dimensions.png)

Renthal guy talking sprockets
(https://i.ibb.co/MNN5BPV/Renthal-sprockets.png)
I think you are correct, I googled the sprocket code No. and it comes up as Royal Enfield OE 16t 525.
Title: Re: Who’s running the 16 tooth sprocket
Post by: Breezin on June 24, 2021, 03:55:59 pm
Is this the right part? I see it doesn't mention a rubber cushion but claims compatability with the Intereptor... https://www.carpimoto.com/en-IE/Bike_Royal-Enfield_Interceptor-650/Specific/Brand_ESJOT/Drive-Transmission/Front-Sprockets/41584_50-29055-16S-Front-Sprocket-Esjot-for-Royal-Enfield-Himalayan.htm

(I would probably buy it from Hitchcocks pre-B-word, but too much of a faff now.)
Title: Re: Who’s running the 16 tooth sprocket
Post by: RecoilRob on June 24, 2021, 04:19:54 pm
Many...perhaps even most aftermarket sprockets don't have the rubber cushions on them.   The Suzuki SV came with one but all the aftermarket sprockets I've put on over the years didn't have them and worked just fine.   The rubber DOES make them run a wee bit quieter as it cushions the side plate contact and manufacturers are being held to strict noise standards for quite a while now so every little bit of noise they can engineer out they take which leaves them more room to make the engine perform better with less exhaust or intake restrictions.
Title: Re: Who’s running the 16 tooth sprocket
Post by: Hoiho on June 24, 2021, 04:50:21 pm
I think you are correct, I googled the sprocket code No. and it comes up as Royal Enfield OE 16t 525.

That’s the one, same code on mine - annoying they can’t get the package label right. Oh well, learnt a bunch of stuff about sprocket and chain conventions I didn’t need to know.
Title: Re: Who’s running the 16 tooth sprocket
Post by: Hoiho on June 24, 2021, 04:58:45 pm
Many...perhaps even most aftermarket sprockets don't have the rubber cushions on them.   The Suzuki SV came with one but all the aftermarket sprockets I've put on over the years didn't have them and worked just fine.   The rubber DOES make them run a wee bit quieter as it cushions the side plate contact and manufacturers are being held to strict noise standards for quite a while now so every little bit of noise they can engineer out they take which leaves them more room to make the engine perform better with less exhaust or intake restrictions.

That was one of the interesting things I learnt about sprockets in today’s internet meanderings.
Title: Re: Who’s running the 16 tooth sprocket
Post by: whippers on June 24, 2021, 09:01:03 pm
Yes the cushions are just part of the process to get past the noise tests
Title: Re: Who’s running the 16 tooth sprocket
Post by: Breezin on June 25, 2021, 12:11:41 pm
Many...perhaps even most aftermarket sprockets don't have the rubber cushions on them.   The Suzuki SV came with one but all the aftermarket sprockets I've put on over the years didn't have them and worked just fine.   The rubber DOES make them run a wee bit quieter as it cushions the side plate contact and manufacturers are being held to strict noise standards for quite a while now so every little bit of noise they can engineer out they take which leaves them more room to make the engine perform better with less exhaust or intake restrictions.

Sound advice!  ;D (Sorry)
Title: Re: Who’s running the 16 tooth sprocket
Post by: Maimboy on June 25, 2021, 05:51:29 pm
I've upgraded to the 16 tooth sprocket and yes, I like it a lot - no longer am I constantly looking for a 7th gear.  It has taken just a little fizz out of it's acceleration though, so if I spent all my time racing around city centres I'd leave it on 15.  Would also not consider it if I was carrying pillions.

I couldn't find any info online about how to actually change the sprocket, so here's a how-to in a single sentence: the chain can stay on but you need to loosen the rear wheel right off to get enough slack, the gear selector needs to come off to allow the sprocket cover to be removed (so mark the position with paint/permanent marker), and the 30mm bolt needs torqueing to 145Nm afterwards.
Title: Re: Who’s running the 16 tooth sprocket
Post by: Starpeve on June 26, 2021, 07:15:01 am
I've upgraded to the 16 tooth sprocket and yes, I like it a lot - no longer am I constantly looking for a 7th gear.  It has taken just a little fizz out of it's acceleration though, so if I spent all my time racing around city centres I'd leave it on 15.  Would also not consider it if I was carrying pillions.

I couldn't find any info online about how to actually change the sprocket, so here's a how-to in a single sentence: the chain can stay on but you need to loosen the rear wheel right off to get enough slack, the gear selector needs to come off to allow the sprocket cover to be removed (so mark the position with paint/permanent marker), and the 30mm bolt needs torqueing to 145Nm afterwards.

I found that the slightly taller 2nd aided in acceleration in real terms.
Certainly didn’t perceive any lack of fizz. In my opinion.
When I’m riding quick, I like to keep the engine humming around 4000-4500, and wind out as required.For boulevard stuff, that puts the bike in a really responsive state, and it all comes together nicely.
Title: Re: Who’s running the 16 tooth sprocket
Post by: hadujorganic on June 26, 2021, 11:34:38 am
Reading through this topic, it doesn't seem like there are any serious downsides to fitting the 16T sprocket. Now I'm tempted to at least try and see for myself.

Has anyone sourced a compatible 16T sprocket from a vendor other than Hitchcock's?
Title: Re: Who’s running the 16 tooth sprocket
Post by: Hoiho on June 26, 2021, 11:40:53 am
Reading through this topic, it doesn't seem like there are any serious downsides to fitting the 16T sprocket. Now I'm tempted to at least try and see for myself.

Has anyone sourced a compatible 16T sprocket from a vendor other than Hitchcock's?

Got mine locally  - MTX from White Power Sports.
Title: Re: Who’s running the 16 tooth sprocket
Post by: whippers on June 26, 2021, 11:44:54 am
It does seem many like the 16 teeth.  However it definitively reduces acceleration for the same reason that your bike pulls harder in 2nd than it does in 6th.  You make the gearing taller, acceleration decreases. So if you spend a bunch of time on the highway and want a more relaxed feel all good. If you think your bike is somehow quicker because you made the gearing taller then I’m a Nigerian Prince and I’ve got a proposal for you.
Title: Re: Who’s running the 16 tooth sprocket
Post by: Starpeve on June 26, 2021, 03:17:06 pm
It does seem many like the 16 teeth.  However it definitively reduces acceleration for the same reason that your bike pulls harder in 2nd than it does in 6th.  You make the gearing taller, acceleration decreases. So if you spend a bunch of time on the highway and want a more relaxed feel all good. If you think your bike is somehow quicker because you made the gearing taller then I’m a Nigerian Prince and I’ve got a proposal for you.
Maybe you can wait till you’ve actually fitted the taller front sprocket to have an opinion? It’s a little more complicated than taller/ slower///shorter quicker.
Title: Re: Who’s running the 16 tooth sprocket
Post by: zimmemr on June 26, 2021, 03:33:18 pm
Maybe you can wait till you’ve actually fitted the taller front sprocket to have an opinion? It’s a little more complicated than taller/ slower///shorter quicker.


I don't have a dog in this fight, but as anyone that's ever ridden a dirt tracker, where a one tooth difference on the rear sprocket, let alone the front, might make the difference between winning and being the first loser your remark that "it's a little more complicated etc.) Is right on the mark.  ;)
Title: Re: Who’s running the 16 tooth sprocket
Post by: Jack Straw on June 26, 2021, 03:36:11 pm
Maybe you can wait till you’ve actually fitted the taller front sprocket to have an opinion? It’s a little more complicated than taller/ slower///shorter quicker.

+1 Why all the blather about such a simple change?  I'm much more concerned with what color oil filter is best. ::)
Title: Re: Who’s running the 16 tooth sprocket
Post by: supercub on June 26, 2021, 03:48:17 pm
Hitchcock's has the 16T for e20, I would try it when I get my bike, I am a light rider, solo.
Title: Re: Who’s running the 16 tooth sprocket
Post by: NVDucati on June 26, 2021, 04:26:18 pm
(https://forum.classicmotorworks.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=30069.0;attach=59595;image)
I think the issue of sprocket size is pretty straight forward. It isn't complicated but it is complex.
This graphic (I know, I suck at graphics) points out that the engine RPM is the engine RPM without regard to which gear it is in. When you think about Exception C _ that is where the effect kicks in and the complexity and arguments start. Otherwise, the tooth count (final drive ratio) only slides the RPMs up and down the speed scale.

Zimmer's flat track example is true because whatever RPM our roll-on acceleration was the best ... we would swap sprockets for that track and that night's dirt so as to have the most acceleration as we exited the last turn towards the finish line. Thus for street bikes our personal riding style, our favorite road types, and the few little changes we make to the engine add up to how we perceive the 16 vs 15.

My larger point remains that if we "morph" our riding style to best utilize the aggregate slight changes we make to the air in/air out, air/fuel ratio and final drive ratio ... things are better.
Title: Re: Who’s running the 16 tooth sprocket
Post by: zimmemr on June 26, 2021, 05:23:00 pm
(https://forum.classicmotorworks.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=30069.0;attach=59595;image)
I think the issue of sprocket size is pretty straight forward. It isn't complicated but it is complex.
This graphic (I know, I suck at graphics) points out that the engine RPM is the engine RPM without regard to which gear it is in. When you think about Exception C _ that is where the effect kicks in and the complexity and arguments start. Otherwise, the tooth count (final drive ratio) only slides the RPMs up and down the speed scale.

Zimmer's flat track example is true because whatever RPM our roll-on acceleration was the best ... we would swap sprockets for that track and that night's dirt so as to have the most acceleration as we exited the last turn towards the finish line. Thus for street bikes our personal riding style, our favorite road types, and the few little changes we make to the engine add up to how we perceive the 16 vs 15.

My larger point remains that if we "morph" our riding style to best utilize the aggregate slight changes we make to the air in/air out, air/fuel ratio and final drive ratio ... things are better.

+1 I couldn't agree more, especially the last bit.  ;)
Title: Re: Who’s running the 16 tooth sprocket
Post by: 6504me on June 26, 2021, 05:31:32 pm

I think the issue of sprocket size is pretty straight forward. It isn't complicated but it is complex.
This graphic (I know, I suck at graphics) points out that the engine RPM is the engine RPM without regard to which gear it is in. When you think about Exception C _ that is where the effect kicks in and the complexity and arguments start. Otherwise, the tooth count (final drive ratio) only slides the RPMs up and down the speed scale.

Zimmer's flat track example is true because whatever RPM our roll-on acceleration was the best ... we would swap sprockets for that track and that night's dirt so as to have the most acceleration as we exited the last turn towards the finish line. Thus for street bikes our personal riding style, our favorite road types, and the few little changes we make to the engine add up to how we perceive the 16 vs 15.

My larger point remains that if we "morph" our riding style to best utilize the aggregate slight changes we make to the air in/air out, air/fuel ratio and final drive ratio ... things are better.

Another consideration is that the gear ratios are rumored to have been changed in the 2021 models...

https://www.webbikeworld.com/2021-royal-enfield-int650/ (https://www.webbikeworld.com/2021-royal-enfield-int650/) third paragraph.

I have not verified that in the dealer's (most reliable) parts lookup but my 2021's gear spacing seemed different than the 2019 demo I rode.
Title: Re: Who’s running the 16 tooth sprocket
Post by: Jack Straw on June 26, 2021, 07:03:50 pm
"Mountain, meet Molehill"    How many pages will this one go for?

One lousy tooth on the countershaft sprocket. What's the fuss?  It either works for you or it doesn't.

The pretty colored charts ARE cute though.

Many of us learned the theory behind final drive ratios with our first 10 speed bicycle.  But really, no theory needed at all, It either works for you, or it doesn't.

Oh, one more thing......... get off my lawn.
Title: Re: Who’s running the 16 tooth sprocket
Post by: whippers on June 26, 2021, 09:25:28 pm

I don't have a dog in this fight, but as anyone that's ever ridden a dirt tracker, where a one tooth difference on the rear sprocket, let alone the front, might make the difference between winning and being the first loser your remark that "it's a little more complicated etc.) Is right on the mark.  ;)

I am hoping you realise that Racing is a totally different scenario to the street because you are gearing to a particular circuit and optimising a set of compromises.  I'll reply to the other guy then I'm out of this. If we can't agree that raising the gearing reduces rear wheel thrust and thus acceleration then we don't agree on physics.
Title: Re: Who’s running the 16 tooth sprocket
Post by: whippers on June 26, 2021, 09:26:13 pm
Maybe you can wait till you’ve actually fitted the taller front sprocket to have an opinion? It’s a little more complicated than taller/ slower///shorter quicker.

If we can't agree that raising the gearing reduces rear wheel thrust and thus acceleration then we don't agree on physics. Enjoy your ride
Title: Re: Who’s running the 16 tooth sprocket
Post by: zimmemr on June 26, 2021, 09:42:20 pm
I am hoping you realise that Racing is a totally different scenario to the street because you are gearing to a particular circuit and optimising a set of compromises.  I'll reply to the other guy then I'm out of this. If we can't agree that raising the gearing reduces rear wheel thrust and thus acceleration then we don't agree on physics.

I don't think anyone is saying that. I was merely trying to point out that there are nuances to changing the gearing. For example if your engine can't pull the taller gearing, your top speed may be reduced and the converse is just as true in some cases lowering the gearing may increase the top speed. I'm sure you knew that, but I 'm just as certain that's not universally known on this forum. And I think we'd both agree that's as true on the street as it is on the race track. 8)

 But I think it's a good idea to end this topic. It takes maybe an hour to change the sprocket the first time you've done it, maybe twenty minutes the the 10th time. My advice is fit the larger sprocket and see how you like it, if you don't like it change it back, or put a 14 tooth on there and become the Interceptor wheelie king. There's no need to hash this thing to death.  ;)
Title: Re: Who’s running the 16 tooth sprocket
Post by: CPJS on June 26, 2021, 10:25:00 pm
For gaining more info, I would find it interesting how changing to a 16t front sprocket changes things with reference to any other changes made to the bike and which model INT or GT.
How much difference (if any) does having the full exhaust system/air filter mod make to pulling higher revs in higher gears?
Does the upright riding position of the INT make a difference to having longer gearing?
How is it with a pillion?
Is there someone out there with a stock bike who is going make exhaust/filter changes, are the willing to do a sprocket change first to find out how the other mods affect it?
Title: Re: Who’s running the 16 tooth sprocket
Post by: zimmemr on June 26, 2021, 11:13:13 pm
For gaining more info, I would find it interesting how changing to a 16t front sprocket changes things with reference to any other changes made to the bike and which model INT or GT.
How much difference (if any) does having the full exhaust system/air filter mod make to pulling higher revs in higher gears?
Does the upright riding position of the INT make a difference to having longer gearing?
How is it with a pillion?
Is there someone out there with a stock bike who is going make exhaust/filter changes, are the willing to do a sprocket change first to find out how the other mods affect it?

The short version is that the more torque your engine makes the taller you can gear.
The more slippery the bike is, the higher you can gear, but at normal riding speeds this is basically a non issue. The OEM mirrors offer as much wind resistance if not more than almost anything else on a naked bike.

If top speed is your objective gear it so it pull the maximum revs in 6th, in some cases that may require lowering the gearing in others raising it. It all depends on the bikes weight, aerodynamics and power.

As I've said before read Kevin Cameron's Sport bike Performance Handbook, especially the chapter on final drives and all be revealed.
Title: Re: Who’s running the 16 tooth sprocket
Post by: supercub on June 26, 2021, 11:17:40 pm
Small bore bikes are a blast when set up to rider preference. I would try a sprocket change before messing with tuning if all I want to do is make the shifting more compatible with my usual ride, yea I'l go for it. Tuning is complicated and a sprocket change is easy.
Title: Re: Who’s running the 16 tooth sprocket
Post by: zimmemr on June 26, 2021, 11:19:04 pm
Small bore bikes are a blast when set up to rider preference. I would try a sprocket change before messing with tuning if all I want to do is make the shifting more compatible with my usual ride, yea I'l go for it. Tuning is complicated and a sprocket change is easy.
Give the man a seegar! ;D
Title: Re: Who’s running the 16 tooth sprocket
Post by: Starpeve on June 27, 2021, 12:12:11 am
I am hoping you realise that Racing is a totally different scenario to the street because you are gearing to a particular circuit and optimising a set of compromises.  I'll reply to the other guy then I'm out of this. If we can't agree that raising the gearing reduces rear wheel thrust and thus acceleration then we don't agree on physics.
Simplistic overview. Done.
Title: Re: Who’s running the 16 tooth sprocket
Post by: lucky phil on June 27, 2021, 01:51:58 am
Another consideration is that the gear ratios are rumored to have been changed in the 2021 models...

https://www.webbikeworld.com/2021-royal-enfield-int650/ (https://www.webbikeworld.com/2021-royal-enfield-int650/) third paragraph.

I have not verified that in the dealer's (most reliable) parts lookup but my 2021's gear spacing seemed different than the 2019 demo I rode.

Easy enough to confirm if anyone has access to a 2021 parts catalog. Just cross ref the part numbers to the 2020 model.

Ciao
Title: Re: Who’s running the 16 tooth sprocket
Post by: Hoiho on June 27, 2021, 07:03:23 am
Had a good run with it today and I think it’s an improvement.
3700-3750rpm at 100km/h, and 4500 At 120, so it feels more relaxed on the open road for sure.

Did our usual hill loop and found it only slowed me a bit burying the throttle exiting a slow corner compared to mates std geared bike, but I could catch up by holding the gear longer.

I found the sprocket nut was little more than hand tight, held on by the tab washer only...
Title: Re: Who’s running the 16 tooth sprocket
Post by: CPJS on June 27, 2021, 11:04:40 am
The short version is that the more torque your engine makes the taller you can gear.
The more slippery the bike is, the higher you can gear, but at normal riding speeds this is basically a non issue. The OEM mirrors offer as much wind resistance if not more than almost anything else on a naked bike.

If top speed is your objective gear it so it pull the maximum revs in 6th, in some cases that may require lowering the gearing in others raising it. It all depends on the bikes weight, aerodynamics and power.

As I've said before read Kevin Cameron's Sport bike Performance Handbook, especially the chapter on final drives and all be revealed.
Unfortunately your short version does not answer any of my questions.
I understand what gearing does, that is not what I asked.
I have not read Mr. Camerons book but I doubt it mentions the RE650 in particular and how changing the exhaust affects it's ability to pull higher gearing.
I am sure the book will have the means to show you how to calculate the end result if you have all the information,  we don't have it, until we do, the book won't help much.
With so many variables, the more facts we get the more people can get an idea what to expect with different modifications. It doesn't matter whether a modification feels better or worse, that is subjective and only relative to their particular needs/objectives.
For pure street riding I'll start off with a bit of info I have so far found.
With stock gearing in 5th gear my bike could hit the rev limiter showing 105mph. With the 16tooth sprocket it will only pull 7200 revs however the the speed has risen to 110mph. This was done with me crouched down as much as possible.
I am only 5'6" 160lbs riding a GT on OE tyres with the TEC Stinger exhaust system, free flowing air filter and booster plug.
Title: Re: Who’s running the 16 tooth sprocket
Post by: zimmemr on June 27, 2021, 12:24:32 pm
Unfortunately your short version does not answer any of my questions.
I understand what gearing does, that is not what I asked.
I have not read Mr. Camerons book but I doubt it mentions the RE650 in particular and how changing the exhaust affects it's ability to pull higher gearing.
I am sure the book will have the means to show you how to calculate the end result if you have all the information,  we don't have it, until we do, the book won't help much.
With so many variables, the more facts we get the more people can get an idea what to expect with different modifications. It doesn't matter whether a modification feels better or worse, that is subjective and only relative to their particular needs/objectives.
For pure street riding I'll start off with a bit of info I have so far found.
With stock gearing in 5th gear my bike could hit the rev limiter showing 105mph. With the 16tooth sprocket it will only pull 7200 revs however the the speed has risen to 110mph. This was done with me crouched down as much as possible.
I am only 5'6" 160lbs riding a GT on OE tyres with the TEC Stinger exhaust system, free flowing air filter and booster plug.

It seems to me you've answered your own question here. That's not meant to sound snarky, but as you point out there are a lot of variables so your results and my results when modifying our motorcycles will always vary. What won't vary are the basics. I.E. If you modify your bike to produce more power you can pull higher gears. Once you know that, the rest of the discussion from my point of view is just talk. Sorry to have offended you, that wasn't my intent.  ;)
Title: Re: Who’s running the 16 tooth sprocket
Post by: NJ Mike on June 27, 2021, 02:12:07 pm
I installed a new chain and sprockets yesterday, and put on a 16T front. Rode home about 75 miles from my friends place in PA to NJ on backroads and interstates. First gear feels a bit tall from a standstill, but more useful once under way. Everywhere else the bike just seems more relaxed, especially at speed on the interstate where it doesn't seem to have any problems pulling when turning at 4k and over.

I have the DNA filter, no snorkel and the S&S cans with the db killers in. I'll need to get to the point where I stop thinking about it and just ride it before I can really make any real determination as to whether or not I'll keep it on or go back to 15T.
Title: Re: Who’s running the 16 tooth sprocket
Post by: supercub on June 27, 2021, 09:30:49 pm
After riding my new GT 100 miles, I think the stock gearing is perfect.
Title: Re: Who’s running the 16 tooth sprocket
Post by: ideola on June 29, 2021, 11:03:17 pm
I couldn't find any info online about how to actually change the sprocket, so here's a how-to in a single sentence: the chain can stay on but you need to loosen the rear wheel right off to get enough slack, the gear selector needs to come off to allow the sprocket cover to be removed (so mark the position with paint/permanent marker), and the 30mm bolt needs torqueing to 145Nm afterwards.

Thanks for this.

Does anyone have a more complete "how-to"? I'm not new to wrenching, but relatively new to motorcycles. I'm sure I can figure it out, but would be helpful to have more detailed instructions...
Title: Re: Who’s running the 16 tooth sprocket
Post by: biscot on June 29, 2021, 11:11:19 pm
Just getting ready to install the 16T as I do my  15 k mile service. Hop0ng to feel a bit more relaxed at 70 mph - will report back when I test it out.
Title: Re: Who’s running the 16 tooth sprocket
Post by: NJ Mike on June 30, 2021, 12:06:05 am
Just getting ready to install the 16T as I do my  15 k mile service. Hop0ng to feel a bit more relaxed at 70 mph - will report back when I test it out.

At 70 you'll be pulling 4000 rpm instead of 4500.
Title: Re: Who’s running the 16 tooth sprocket
Post by: NVDucati on June 30, 2021, 12:17:30 am
I've upgraded to the 16 tooth sprocket and yes, I like it a lot - no longer am I constantly looking for a 7th gear.  It has taken just a little fizz out of it's acceleration though, so if I spent all my time racing around city centres I'd leave it on 15.  Would also not consider it if I was carrying pillions.

I couldn't find any info online about how to actually change the sprocket, so here's a how-to in a single sentence: the chain can stay on but you need to loosen the rear wheel right off to get enough slack, the gear selector needs to come off to allow the sprocket cover to be removed (so mark the position with paint/permanent marker), and the 30mm bolt needs torqueing to 145Nm afterwards.
Some folks might find it handy to loosen the counter shaft sprocket nut before loosening the rear axle.
Title: Re: Who’s running the 16 tooth sprocket
Post by: Hoiho on June 30, 2021, 12:17:56 am
Thanks for this.

Does anyone have a more complete "how-to"? I'm not new to wrenching, but relatively new to motorcycles. I'm sure I can figure it out, but would be helpful to have more detailed instructions...

This guy is very good at explaining things well https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UxD3qdD7LhE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UxD3qdD7LhE)
Title: Re: Who’s running the 16 tooth sprocket
Post by: ideola on June 30, 2021, 03:19:37 am
This guy is very good at explaining things well https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UxD3qdD7LhE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UxD3qdD7LhE)
Fantastic video, thanks for sharing!
Title: Re: Who’s running the 16 tooth sprocket
Post by: Royal Low on July 01, 2021, 01:48:51 pm
Well I pulled the trigger and did the 16t sprocket swap on 6/30/21. Was an ez 20 min swap. Took my 2021 Cont GT for a ride after the swap and to me it was the best mechanical mod Iv done to the bike so far. The bike is still very responsive and it didnt loose much acceleration at all. I like the gears being a bit longer and love that the RPM are much lower at 70-80 mph.
Title: Re: Who’s running the 16 tooth sprocket
Post by: ideola on July 01, 2021, 01:53:41 pm
Ordered mine this week, looking forward to digging in!
Title: Re: Who’s running the 16 tooth sprocket
Post by: ATXConti650 on July 01, 2021, 05:38:16 pm
Just installed the 16T countershaft sprocket and the bike really has taken to it well.   No more trying to shift into '7th' gear and the gearing in 5th now is almost identical to the stock 15T in 6th.   Engine pulls the additional gearing just fine and to my senses it feels happier with the slightly taller gear.   60 mph is showing 3600 revs in 6th and I've always liked tall gearing....because you can always downshift if you want more revs but once you've run out of gears you can't upshift to lower them.   Stock chain fit just fine and the 17T might actually fit...but unless the motor finds more torque I'm going to leave it at 16T...a very happy setup.

Finished installing 16T sprocket yesterday using stock chain, 1st gear has longer legs now, highway speed is smoother it seems, and I like the feel of the bike. Acceleration was plenty fast for me with the stock sprocket and it still pulls strong as far as I'm concerned. 6th gear at 80 runs about 5K RPM.

Got it from Hitchcock's and took a week or so to arrive in Texas by mail without special shipping.
Title: Re: Who’s running the 16 tooth sprocket
Post by: CPJS on July 01, 2021, 08:25:28 pm
Well I pulled the trigger and did the 16t sprocket swap on 6/30/21. Was an ez 20 min swap. Took my 2021 Cont GT for a ride after the swap and to me it was the best mechanical mod Iv done to the bike so far. The bike is still very responsive and it didnt loose much acceleration at all. I like the gears being a bit longer and love that the RPM are much lower at 70-80 mph.
It is a great mod, for me, it feels how it should have been geared in the first place as it still pulls all the gears easily.