[Warwick]

Hi all
Just asking what iron barrel models are most or least liked? My favourite is the Lightning but I know that its contentious. Also which ones are more or less rare or desirable in different markets?

[Paul W]

Everyone will have their own favourite but my bike is a fairly rare (in U.K.) 350 Bullet Electra. Despite the name, it doesn’t have the AVL engine as fitted to the Electra X models, but it does have crank mounted TCI ignition, which is maintenance free.

Having fitted it with a 5 speed gearbox, gas flowed the head and fitted a high compression piston and better exhaust, it runs really well and will keep up with the later 500s. I wouldn’t swap it for a unit construction bike.

[Raymond]

I don't know much about the various iterations of pre-unit 350s and 500s.

When reading a technical manual or parts list keep coming across things like Does not apply to Electra. I can recognise the different shape of the lean burn AVL motor but don't know what a Sixty-Five or a Lightning is. I wonder if there is a good reference for the succession of models and technical changes?

My 2002 manufactured 500 has 4-speed, r/h gear change and had an electric start before I removed it. The period 2002-2008 seems to have been one of frequent changes and rapid evolution.

[Paul W]

Yes, my bike’s iron engine (2004) seems to have been a test bed for the fully electronic TCI ignition now fitted to almost all modern bikes of every make. The engine doesn’t have a distributor fitted although it still has the same timing cover as the original versions and looks like it should be there. Some of the “does not apply to the Electra” instructions do apply to my engine. It has caused me a few head scratching moments until I worked it all out.

 I’ve never seen another in the flesh, although they infrequently come up for sale online.

[cyrusb]

That Lightning looks like it has an identity issue. Buckhorn handlebars ,king-queen seat, and what appears to be a smaller rear wheel makes it look like a "Choppered-Up" 1970's Honda. I would say it's the one version of bullet that members of this site would probably avoid.
 I do like that wheelie bin though.

[Adrian II]

For Raymond the Sixty-5 is simply a 5-speed electric start Bullet with fork gaiters instead of tin shrouds and a snazzier paint scheme. These probably have the best reputation of the older Indian Bullets. For some reason the UK market was never offered the 5-speed E/S Deluxe sold in Europe and the USA. Probably my choice if I wanted a Chennai iron barrel Bullet.

The Lightning is an over-bored (535) iron barrel Bullet for the Indian home market with a "custom" tank, seat and separate headlamp, but with the ugliest speedometer and rev-counter console imaginable. The nightmare styling is easily fixed if it's too ghastly for you. This model had a fairly short run before the factory replaced it with the AVL 350 Thunderbird as their factory custom model.

There is an electric start version of Paul's 350 Electra which is, apart from the electronic ignition, effectively a mini version of the Sixty-5, also quite highly thought of.

A.

[cyrusb]

Is that a Teddy Bear in the Lemmon tree behind the bike?

[Karl Childers]

My favorite is the trials version but you do have to make it yourself. No idea as to how desirable or collectable it will be but it ticks the boxes for me.

[AzCal Retred]

I'm inclined to go with Paul W's Pre-Unit 5-speed 350. I like my 4-speed ES350 version very much, but the 5-speed would bring it into the 21st century and not diminish the easy maintenance aspect. The 350 is definitely smoother for low speed maneuvering as the power pulses are smaller and the flywheel is proportionately bigger. As Paul says, it's not rocket science to extract 20+ HP, so you aren't giving up much to the 500. Mine's pretty pokey, but it's also painfully stock.

I do think that if you were a loaded touring or two-up rider the 500's better torque would soon be missed, but the 350 design was a very nice effort by Royal Enfield.

[Mr_84]

I quite like this , 500cc , 5 speed , factory kickstart only , points ignition  what more could you ask for ?

[Raymond]

I quite like this , 500cc , 5 speed , factory kickstart only , points ignition  what more could you ask for ?

Right-hand side gear change?

[Mr_84]

Hi Raymond

Not a Right hand or should I say Right foot shift yet , I don't mind it this way as it is "normal" , note it is not the crazy linkage conversion they did in the states . I have a little Top end freshen up project coming up shortly maybe once that is done I could consider going back the "right way " for the shifter

[Paul W]

I'm inclined to go with Paul W's Pre-Unit 5-speed 350. I like my 4-speed ES350 version very much, but the 5-speed would bring it into the 21st century and not diminish the easy maintenance aspect. The 350 is definitely smoother for low speed maneuvering as the power pulses are smaller and the flywheel is proportionately bigger. As Paul says, it's not rocket science to extract 20+ HP, so you aren't giving up much to the 500. Mine's pretty pokey, but it's also painfully stock.

I do think that if you were a loaded touring or two-up rider the 500's better torque would soon be missed, but the 350 design was a very nice effort by Royal Enfield.

The problem I found with the 4 speed on the 350 is that relatively large gap from 3rd the 4th. No doubt the 500 or the twin cylinder bikes had enough torque to "bridge" it, but I found it very frustrating to be continually changing up and down on a long hill.

The other disadvantage of the 4 speed is the less than certain gear selection. I often used to find a false neutral rather than 3rd on changing down for a tight corner, which is unnerving to say the least and can result in the bike drifting wide.

The almost unused 5 speed I was sold did have a selection problem though (I suspect it had been changed under warranty on a brand new bike for that reason). Even before I converted it to right side change it wouldn't reliably change down below 3rd. After a dismantling it many times (and fitting a new return spring, which made no difference), I found that the foot change lever wouldn't reset by itself, almost as if the pedal was too heavy! The slightest touch upwards would reset the pedal so the next lower gear would go in, but riding the bike like that required some very fancy footwork and could result in changing up again by mistake.

I cured it by fitting an external "helper" spring mechanism to the pedal, which pulls it up after a down change. This only required a hole drilling and tapping into the rear of the pedal which takes a screw to hold the lower end of the spring, everything being removable in a couple of minutes. It's been there for about 15,000 miles now and I've never found an issue with it so have never bothered to remove it to see if it's still needed now the gearbox will have loosened up.

[AzCal Retred]

"The problem I found with the 4 speed on the 350 is that relatively large gap from 3rd the 4th" Amen Brother!  All too true, but one of the features that attracted me to these dinosaurs in the first place was that Weird Alice 4-speed lathe-sourced/adapted gearbox. The point was to get the actual 1940's riding experience. That wide ratio 4 speed saves 4th for flat ground. Other than that, on any hill or into any headwind you go the speed the machine allows you to, in whatever ratio serves the purpose of propelling you forward. It was all vastly better than walking in 1940. H's also has additional gearbox ratios, a "road" and a "trials" variant for not a lot of cash. Being a pre-unit design, gearbox ratio changes are possible of an evening with the engine still in the frame. Coming from a Japanese bike background, that was a novel concept indeed.

The 5 speed really improves the rideability under modern "combat traffic" conditions. There's always a suitable ratio at hand, you are more able to tune your road speed to accommodate traffic. Paul W's souped-up 350 Bullet would really shine in that environment. My stock ES350 requires a sharp eye on the rear view mirror and a mental map of the "good" turn outs, as there's no way I'm letting some yobbo tailgate me long enough to get him wound up for a "desperation/frustration suicide pass". Lucky for me I have a suitably rural area, lots of 25-40 MPH twisties, so Black Mollie is adequate for the job. My 500 Bullet has enough Ongawa to make the 4 speed adequate in normal traffic, but it's not comfortable, you are always strategizing. With the 4-speed you rather need to plan your shifts ahead of time, the 5 speed removes that concern. For 1940's roads & traffic, the 4-speed was great. Here in 2020, you really need to pay attention.

"The other disadvantage of the 4 speed is the less than certain gear selection" Again, complete agreement. But fettling that anachronistic clockwork shifting mechanism into functionality is another source of satisfaction in owning these machines, at least to me. I've poured over Snidal's manual, replaced the bellcrank indexing detent plungers, replaced & filed the shift stop "butterfly" plates and "tuned" the rotation angle of that weird ratchet plate assembly, all of it fun.

I approach Bullet ownership/stewardship more like an opportunity to participate in "Early Days" tech than any search for performance. I'd already put plenty of miles on my old "UJM" SR500 Yamaha and had lots of various modern 4 & 2 cylinder road burner time. My rural location more closely replicates the operating environment of the 1940's, so here, these Bullets are largely adequate as is. Paul W has a much more "combat driving" environment to contend with, and his 5-speed and engine power mods have brought his machine up to the task brilliantly. Pretty amazing for what's basically a Pre-WWII design.

[Paul W]

Thanks, yes the bike does now feel more modern with some extra power (I don’t know how much more than standard) and with a gearbox that allows it to stay in the power band, it will keep up with traffic very well.

Perhaps surprisingly, despite retaining the standard cams, it does have a mild power band. I can feel it and hear it. Paul Henshaw’s (aka Bullet Whisperer) advice of retarding the inlet cam by one gear tooth probably has something to do with that. I’ve found that there was a noticeable improvement in performance when I gas flowed the exhaust port, more than I had expected. It also has a 26mm carb rather than the standard 24mm one. It will now rev into valve bounce territory, with some more to give, so I have to be careful with it. I might treat it to a Hitchcock’s lightweight valve assembly when I can justify the cost, other projects etc permitting.

I think it runs smoother with its high compression, “Meteor Minor” piston, probably because it weighs a little less than the standard one did (34 grams, or 1.2 ounces I think it was).

[ddavidv]

I guess I was lucky getting a 5 speed De Lux model as my first Enfield. I find it runs quite well; likes to be wrung out a bit but not abused. The 5 speed left shift works very nicely.

The 350 4 speed I worked on was...okay. We have a lot of hills around me and it was rather wheezy on those compared to the 500. On more flat surfaces it didn't run bad, but you definitely knew there was a much smaller piston working for you.

The Albion gearbox seems to demand being set up properly. The one in my Interceptor works quite well, actually. Sure, there is the occasional false neutral. Shifts aren't going to be super fast but they are positive and the ratios work pretty well with the big twin. The one in the 350 I never could get to work completely right but blame that on the India-shop-built rear set linkage that had too much play in it. Wouldn't mind a go at another.

I'd kind of like to find a tatty Bullet to turn into a trials/woods bike. Lots of gravel roads not far from me.

[Paul W]

I gave the 350 a good clean tonight then decided I’d take it out for a drying run. Whilst doing that it suddenly occurred to me that I have never actually heard what the bike sounds like, other than from the saddle. I found a long deserted straight and put my phone on the grass verge, set to record.

Two things came out of it. Firstly, it is loud! Secondly, I think the clutch is slipping slightly during gear changes. I’ll look into that.

https://youtu.be/558QoRYFAh4

[Yinzer]

I like the old school, low-tech simplicity of the early ones.

Kickstart only, points & 4-speed box w/ neutral finder (right shift)
If dad decides the gear ratio needs tweaking, we could maybe try the close ratio set.

We only do back roads with it around here in Amish country so it's perfect. 

[Mr_84]

I gave the 350 a good clean tonight then decided I’d take it out for a drying run. Whilst doing that it suddenly occurred to me that I have never actually heard what the bike sounds like, other than from the saddle. I found a long deserted straight and put my phone on the grass verge, set to record.

Two things came out of it. Firstly, it is loud! Secondly, I think the clutch is slipping slightly during gear changes. I’ll look into that.

https://youtu.be/558QoRYFAh4

Awesome totally awesome the sound was like its out of a movie or a sound track , the take off then the fly bye ,all had me smiling . What a wicked bike it must be ,sounds good 👍.

Now everyone is going to be recording their bikes ,could be the next "craze"

[Paul W]

It occurred to me that I’ve got a small camera and a mini tripod to set it up facing the road. I must have a play…..