[Toni59]

Today I finally brought my Himalayan in for a 5000 km service. I am still very satisfied with her. At this service, the brake calipers are now also changed, since my also affected by the recall.

In addition, I told my dealer that after a few weeks of standstill, the battery is always empty and then it no longer starts. I suspected the Indian battery and therefore exchanged it for a Lipo battery. However, this is emptied in the same way...
To my surprise, he told me that this problem comes from the gear indicator sensor and can be fixed.
Euro 4 models are affected, Euro 5 models are not.

Does anyone know this problem and what is fixed in detail here?

Regards
Toni59

[GSS]

It is a design flaw and this is the solution.

https://accessories.hitchcocksmotorcycles.com/46817?ref_page=Himalayan

[Toni59]

Thanks for that link.
Yes, this exactly describes what‘s happening…

But the question is still how the technical background looks like in detail.
Also Hitchcock says, that the discharge „is reduced greatly“ with this device but not avoided…

What I would like to know:

What is the reason for the parasitic draw?
(By the way I was not able to measure it with my multimeter)

When and why does it occur at all?

Is there a solution to avoid it completely?

I do not believe that my dealer purchases this part 

[oldphart]

It just annoys me that the factory released a bike with this sort of fault at all. Us long timers are sadly used to it.

[Toni59]

@oldphart:

That is true.
You don‘t need to ride through the Himalayan to find this problem…

Just put it in your garage and wait 3 weeks. 

[oldphart]

It is a design flaw and this is the solution.

https://accessories.hitchcocksmotorcycles.com/46817?ref_page=Himalayan

I'm not sure that's the answer. As Toni59 commented, it's only talking about reducing the drain and I seem to remember there was a 'cure' that was a wee bit more complex.
Sorry, my bike predates this so I haven't faithfully followed the discussions.

[Toni59]

Lucky you…

[zefnerd]

Thanks for that link.
Yes, this exactly describes what‘s happening…

But the question is still how the technical background looks like in detail.
Also Hitchcock says, that the discharge „is reduced greatly“ with this device but not avoided…
 Since there is aways a small draw on bikes due to electronic clocks, ECU's, or alarms, not claiming to completely fix the issue would be smart since some items that cause draw might be customer additions and some just the nature of modern motorcycles with ECU's.

What I would like to know:

What is the reason for the parasitic draw?
(By the way I was not able to measure it with my multimeter)
Depending on which gear (or neutral) the motorcycle is in, you will see roughly a 7 milliamp draw.

When and why does it occur at all?
At some point, Royal Enfield moved from a 3 pin connection for the gear position sensor which was completely passive, to the same 3 pins plus a jumper for power which connects in between the R/R connector which is always online. There is a box on the power connector whose contents are not known but may be a power converter, say from 12V to 5V. No matter what, one of the small resistors for the gps is always allowing power to ground and depending upon which gear you are in the drain will change since each gear relates to a different voltage drop from the different gear resistor values.

Is there a solution to avoid it completely?
Powering the gear position sensor from a circuit which switches on and off with the ignition resolves this particular issue completely, the Hitchcock solution does this by moving the power jumper from the R/R location to the rear light I believe. With EFI bikes, there will always be a small amount of drain, but it should be 1 miliamp or less at which point the self discard rate might be more of an issue.

I do not believe that my dealer purchases this part 
Probably not, it would be interesting to find out Royal Enfield's official stance on the product. The newest Himalayan's don't have the issue, but also have a new wiring harness which provides a switched power connection to the gear position sensor. I suspect the cost of changing the wiring harness vs. the relatively small power draw is why it lingered as a small but annoying issue. They seem to keep addressing small issues each year which is kinda nice.

[Toni59]

Hi Zefnerd,

Thank‘s a lot for the details!

hat is the reason for the parasitic draw?
(By the way I was not able to measure it with my multimeter)
Depending on which gear (or neutral) the motorcycle is in, you will see roughly a 7 milliamp draw.

I already observed some different discharges but could not find the root cause. Normally, when my bike is resting in the garage I switch it into neutral. That seems to draw a comparable high current….
Could be that 1st or 2nd gear draws less…

I wonder why obviously some riders don‘t have the problem or better don‘t experience it - because of that technical background this problem is present at every bike.

The only thing that helps is ride it more often, and this could be the reason: Frequent riders won‘t recognize the discharge!

[Guldner]

 

Afternoon

Having read this topic and experienced battery discharge to the point that the bike gets put in the shed…the bike is put on charge….So, I wrote to RE support……

Hello

I own and ride a 2020 Euro 4 Himalayan, as you know all Euro 4 Himalayans suffer from a battery drain problem allegedly linked to the gear indicator sensor, to the point that Hitchcocks have developed a “fix” for the problem. Please see the link below.

https://accessories.hitchcocksmotorcycles.com/46817?ref_page=Himalayan

Product Details
ADD ON LOOM TO REDUCE BATTERY DRAIN, HIMALAYAN

Owners often report a premature drain of their battery on the Himalayan model. If the bike is left sitting for an extended period of time, the battery can fail to start the engine.

After running various tests, we have identified the main parasitic draw on these bikes, and with our add on lead fitted, this draw is reduced greatly improving the length in time that the bike can sit without use.

Fitted in a matter of minutes, this simple add on lead is a must for any Himalayan owner.

Assembled in house at Hitchcocks and supplied with full fitting instructions.

Owing to my bike being under warranty and you knowing of the said problem, what are you going to do to alleviate the issue?

Have you developed a fix? As you going to tackle it via a recall? When can I expect my bike to be “fixed”?

Hope I hear from you soon

Regards


And their response;

Hello Mr G….

Thank you for your purchase and taking time to make contact ourselves.

Please can you arrange for your bike to be inspected at your usual Royal Enfield Dealership, Authorised Repairer or any others of your choice.


If they diagnose your bike as needing the Add on GPS lead to rectify you’re your battery drain, They will submit a warranty claim as normal.

Please take copies of your service invoices with you if you decide to use another dealership other than the one that you have been using for maintaining the service schedule, to enable a speedy successful claim.

A fix was communicated out to the Authorised network over 12 months ago in relation to the GPS Lead, I am very surprised that when you have been in for servicing that this has not been mentioned to you, if you let them that you have been experiencing battery issues.

A Recall would not be required for this concern as it does not present a safety issue, This is why a Technical bulletin was published and released to the Network.

Hopefully this answers your question and gives you direction what to do next to get your bike repaired.

Kind Regards,


I hope the above helps, how many of you have been notified when visiting/having a service at your Stealership?

Have fun

G😎

[Crabsapper]

In my experience, the factory have no idea how bad their distributors/dealers are.

[oldphart]

In my experience, the factory have no idea how bad their distributors/dealers are.

In my experience, RE don't give a shit. Did you know that if you report a dealer, RE just flick the email through to the dealer without doing anything about it themselves? When I had my warranty dispute, I had to get another dealer (interstate) involved who was willing to ring RE and fight it out with them.

[Toni59]

@Guldner:

Am I right that the bug fix RE mentioned in their answer („GPS Lead“) is a different one than my dealer told me („Gear Indicator Sensor“)?

It is amazing how many battery drain issues are around….

[axman88]

7 milliamps doesn't seem like much parasitic draw to me.  An alarm with a blinking LED light will likely be drawing 2 to 5 times this much.

Assuming your machine is equipped with a 8 Ah battery, which is at 100% charge, I calculate a 7 mA draw would take ( 4 A-h / .007 A) = 571 hours ~= 24 days to be drawn down to 50% charge.

I'd be monitoring my battery voltage, to see where it's at.  Give it a full charge, remove the charger, then wait 4 hours to see what voltage a full charge gives.  Depending on the age / construction of the battery, the voltage vs. percent charge varies, but generally, as a battery discharges voltage declines.
Also, capacity declines with age, use and abuse.  Discharging the battery sufficiently that it will not start the bike, is likely to damage the chemistry, lowering the capacity.  Lead acid batteries should be kept above 50% at all times, if possible.

You might have voltages like:
100%   12.8 Volts
80%     12.5
60%     12.2
40%     12.0
20%     11.7

You might be constantly running with a discharged battery.  Remember, these machines don't have field coils in the alternator, charging power is only determined by engine RPMs and power draw.  At idle, with the lights on, the battery may be discharging.

I find that, on my RE C5, normal commuter riding is insufficient to keep my battery charged.  I spend too much time idling at traffic lights, or riding at low speed in traffic, conditions under which the battery is not charging.  Every component in the machine's system checks out as in-spec., it's just that my riding profile doesn't include enough sustained high rpms, to maintain the battery charge.  Knowing this, I monitor battery voltage, and every few weeks I put the bike on a trickle charger to keep it in the 70% charge or better zone.

[zefnerd]

  The response from Royal Enfield Support actually lines up with a posting I saw last year in April. Here's the part number that I couldn't find then, but does return as a RE part now at one supplier.
RAC00679/A
https://www.bike-parts-royalenfield.com/royalenfield-motorcycle/assignment_spare_parts/RAC00679_A
 People looking through their dealers didn't find it then, perhaps it will have made it to your support zone by now.

And their response;

Hello Mr G….

Thank you for your purchase and taking time to make contact ourselves.

Please can you arrange for your bike to be inspected at your usual Royal Enfield Dealership, Authorised Repairer or any others of your choice.


If they diagnose your bike as needing the Add on GPS lead to rectify you’re your battery drain, They will submit a warranty claim as normal.

Please take copies of your service invoices with you if you decide to use another dealership other than the one that you have been using for maintaining the service schedule, to enable a speedy successful claim.

A fix was communicated out to the Authorised network over 12 months ago in relation to the GPS Lead, I am very surprised that when you have been in for servicing that this has not been mentioned to you, if you let them that you have been experiencing battery issues.

A Recall would not be required for this concern as it does not present a safety issue, This is why a Technical bulletin was published and released to the Network.

Hopefully this answers your question and gives you direction what to do next to get your bike repaired.

Kind Regards,


I hope the above helps, how many of you have been notified when visiting/having a service at your Stealership?

Have fun

[Toni59]

So, I picked up my Himalayan from the dealer again after the 5000 km inspection. On this occasion I asked him how the problem with the gear sensor was solved. He told me that in the Euro 4 models the gear sensor is always under voltage and therefore drains the battery. There would be a repair wiring harness from RE, which changes the wiring so that the sensor receives power from a switched plus cable. This repair wiring harness is currently not available, which is why they have now solved by manual wiring change.


@Axman88:

I have mounted a Voltmeter to have control over the voltage situation. During normal drive the voltage is always stable at 14,3 - 14,4 Volts - so that should be enough to keep the battery in a good shape, right?

[oldphart]

Is it mean of me to say I'm glad I've got a carby model? Though in this case, it's not because it's carby rather than efi. 

I feel for you lot with this problem, it just shouldn't be there. In my case, there is literally no way I could keep my bike on a trickle charger - communal carports have that effect.

[axman88]

@Axman88:

I have mounted a Voltmeter to have control over the voltage situation. During normal drive the voltage is always stable at 14,3 - 14,4 Volts - so that should be enough to keep the battery in a good shape, right?

Not necessarily, 14.4 is a moderate charging voltage, a float charging voltage is typically around 14.0, and charging voltages can be much higher.  The bikes regulator will limit system voltage to a maximum number (rev your engine up, with accessories off, to find out what your bike's system regulates to), but the charging systems on our REs are primitive, IMO.  Batteries don't act like resistors, so voltage is not a good indicator of either rate of charge, nor state ( % of max. capacity) of charge.  For charging, it's the amps that one wants to monitor. 

The state of charge of your battery can be best monitored with the voltmeter, by checking voltage BEFORE you start the bike, after it has been NOT running for at least 3 hours.  I've seen surface charges take even longer to bleed off, I consider 6 hours of idle time to give a much more reliable voltage number for determining state of charge.  Knowing the voltage before any loads ( ignition, lights, fuel pump) are put on the battery will tell you the % of charge.  Seeing how low the voltage dips when the starter motor is running, will give a good idea as to the internal resistance of the battery, which is a good indicator as to the health of the battery.  If the voltage when electric starting goes under 9.8V, I'd start shopping for a new battery.

There's lots to learn about batteries, I recommend Battery University, a non-profit, educational website about battery tech.    https://batteryuniversity.com/article/bu-201-how-does-the-lead-acid-battery-work

New batteries aren't cheap, but you can save a lot by buying when the price is right, not when your aging battery hits the wall.  A lead acid cell with no acid in it, which is how the wet cells I've purchase have been sold online, can be stored on the shelf for several years, without degrading.  Acid can be still be purchased at some auto parts stores, or bought online   https://www.grainger.com/product/5WG11    A lot of folks prefer gel cells, which have advantages, but aren't available dry, and will not have the shelf life of an un-activated wet cell.

[Toni59]

@Axman88: Thanks for the detailed and interesting information on the subject of lead batteries.

However, I have since installed a lithium ion battery...

[Richard230]

@Axman88: Thanks for the detailed and interesting information on the subject of lead batteries.

However, I have since installed a lithium ion battery...

Lithium batteries are great, but they don't like parasitic drains. They only have about 1/3 of the electrical storage capacity of a similarly-AH-rated lead battery. When there is no drain on the battery, they will store power for a long time. But if there is a continuous electrical drain on a lithium battery, it is a good idea to keep it on a lithium-specific battery maintainer if you don't ride your bike regularly.

BTW, I have had a lithium battery in my Bullet for the past 10 years without any problems and the Bullet's alternator seems to do a decent job of recharging the battery during a ride. When I return home I hook up my little Deltran lithium battery maintainer and it will run for about 15 minutes before the battery is fully recharged and the green light comes on.

[axman88]

@Axman88: Thanks for the detailed and interesting information on the subject of lead batteries.

However, I have since installed a lithium ion battery...

[axman88]

@Axman88: Thanks for the detailed and interesting information on the subject of lead batteries.

However, I have since installed a lithium ion battery...

I've never used LI-ion in a vehicle battery, only in portable power tools and electronics where they are integrated into systems with bespoke chargers.   They have some big advantages over lead, especially in weight, allowable charging rate and power density.

Battery University can tell you a lot about Lithium based batteries, especially if you know which of the many types you have.  https://batteryuniversity.com/article/bu-205-types-of-lithium-ion

Some types are quite resistant to thermal runaway, but others go into thermal if overheated and/or overcharged.  I'd assume that the battery manufacturers build some sort of safety circuit into the batteries designed to replace lead acid.  The charging systems in our machines are pretty simple, and there's no provision for adjusting rate or voltage threshold, or preventing overcharging.

Lithium batteries give max. service life when not charged to full capacity.  https://batteryuniversity.com/article/bu-808-how-to-prolong-lithium-based-batteries

I think checking voltage of the battery when idle and unloaded is still a good strategy for determining state of charge, but the characteristic voltages will be different.  As Richard230 suggested, chargers specific to Lithium are preferred.  Much of the information at this link about charging is directed to the Li-Cobalt types preferred for things like cell phones, but I'm guessing batteries sold as replacements for lead acid tech. would likely be the safer Li-phosphate or titanate type.   https://batteryuniversity.com/article/bu-409-charging-lithium-ion

Since I have no experience with Lithium batteries for 12V vehicle systems, and the characteristic cell voltage of the different lithium technologies have different characteristic cell voltages, I'd be curious as to how what specific type you guys have, how many cells are in the battery, and what the fully charged battery voltage is?

[Richard230]

I believe that most 12V vehicle lithium batteries are of the LiFePO4 chemistry. They are very stable and not prone to fires as are some other types of Li batteries. They typically should have a simple battery management system that will prevent them from being overcharged and will shut down the power when the voltage reaches a low point that might damage (AKA "brick") the battery.

[Toni59]

The Lipo Battery I have bought is from Skyrich, see picture.

It saves also a lot of weight….

[Carl Fenn]

Yes but taking all this into account the bike should have had a recall with this issue who wants the inconvenience of new batteries and charges a nuisance no one wants.

[axman88]

Yes but taking all this into account the bike should have had a recall with this issue who wants the inconvenience of new batteries and charges a nuisance no one wants.

To me, the difference between the 7 mA that the problem circuit draws, and the 1-2 that most ECU equipped machines will draw, although it's 5 times as much, doesn't seem like a hair-on-fire emergency.   143 hours to draw an ampere-hour's worth of power.  If my math is correct, that's equivalent to less than a millisecond of cranking the starter.

It would take the better part of a month to draw a fully charged battery down to 50%.  Folks who ride their machine even once a week would likely never even notice the issue.  Those who install a clock or alarm would likely have greater battery draw when idle. 

It seems like this level of draw is competing with a lead acid battery's self discharge rate in magnitude.  Still, it's not a smart design, since the circuit has no need to be continuously powered.

[Toni59]

If I understand the background of the circuit of the gear sensor correctly, the engaged gear is determined via different resistors. This means that the stand-by consumption is different and dependent on the gear engaged when switching off. For me, this was mostly neutral, rarely the first, even more rarely the second. But I already had the suspicion that this made a difference in battery drainage…

[axman88]

If I understand the background of the circuit of the gear sensor correctly, the engaged gear is determined via different resistors. This means that the stand-by consumption is different and dependent on the gear engaged when switching off. For me, this was mostly neutral, rarely the first, even more rarely the second. But I already had the suspicion that this made a difference in battery drainage…

That was my understanding as well, and that the fix supplies the gear selector from a circuit that is switched by the  ignition, instead of coming direct from the battery.

Hopefully, you wired your add-on voltmeter so it is inactive during storage?  It's not uncommon for digital voltmeters to draw 20 mA or more. 

[Toni59]

@Axman88:

Yes, my added Voltmeter ist on a switched plus 

Details see here https://forum.classicmotorworks.com/index.php?topic=29927.0

By the way:
Since I have mounted a Led headlight the energy consumption during normal operation is reduced by approximately 30 Watt….

[axman88]

@Axman88:

Yes, my added Voltmeter ist on a switched plus 

Details see here https://forum.classicmotorworks.com/index.php?topic=29927.0

By the way:
Since I have mounted a Led headlight the energy consumption during normal operation is reduced by approximately 30 Watt….

You are drawing 30 watts below stock load level, even with glove heaters operating?

That's a very nice looking install.  I prefer my voltmeter to be independent of my system, so it's available for diagnostics, like testing an idle battery, checking for power at various point, or voltage drop tests across components.  I soldered wires onto 70 cent digital voltmeters and potted in hot melt with a magnet stuck on the backside so these cheap little meters can cling to the tank or frame or any steel part of whatever machine needs investigating.  One has test leads, one has alligator clips, and  one is terminated in the mate for the two pin SAE that I use for the battery maintainer.  Ugly, but effective, and very little investment.

Skyrich site says your battery is a LiFePO4, Lithium phosphate, as Richard230 said.  Skyrich posts a voltage vs. percentage of charge charge on their FAQ.  https://www.skyrichbattery.com/p9/Frequently-Asked-Questions/pages.html

It shows voltage at full charge should be 14.3V ( 3.58V /cell)  , at 50% it's 13.2V ( 3.28V /cell), and drops all the way to 9.2V at 0%.  Skyrich says one should never go below 12.86, (3.21V / cell) which is 20% capacity.

On the other hand, a lead acid wet cell with be fully charged at 13V or so.   At 50% charge voltage it will measure about 12.2V, and the don't pass floor is around 11.8V. 

So, although the Li-phosphate is probably better matched to OEM lead acid tech. than any of the other lithium types, it doesn't seem perfectly matched to a charging system designed for lead acid.   I read somewhere that most lithium ion batteries that are swapped into systems designed for lead acid, spend their lives operating between 70% and 50% capacity, and that this was basically a good thing, because they survive better and longer when operated at lower levels.  Of course, these were probably being installed in cars, with field coil equipped alternators.

Our simple charging systems, with no ability to modulate the charge level based on battery state or power draw, or float charge at all, aren't really perfectly matched to ANY battery technology.  Your system might keep a Li phosphate quite happy, or in a constant state of discharge,  depending on how you ride, and what the load is.  From the few numbers you cited, I wouldn't expect it to overcharge your Skyrich battery.

Are you still experiencing problems with battery discharge during idle periods? 
Have you made any idle battery voltage measurements to determine state of charge?   https://batteryuniversity.com/article/bu-903-how-to-measure-state-of-charge

[Toni59]

@Axamn88
Thanks for the further links - very interesting!

I can't say yet what the conversion to switched plus has done - it's too early for that. But I will observe it and report back here. At the next opportunity I will check the SoC with an accurate voltage measurement over a longer period.

A word about the energy budget of my Himalayan.
The standard main headlight has 12 volts 55/60 watts.
My LED headlight has about 18 watts - so I have about 30 watts left for other things or charging…