[Richard230]

Well, that is a nice looking aircraft. Too bad it was a financial dud.

[GlennF]

Well, that is a nice looking aircraft. Too bad it was a financial dud.

It looks fantastic.

It just was not a practical or economical airplane to run, and when you are buying an aircraft where just the two engines (1200 HP Pratt and Whitney PT6) are close to a million dollars each in todays money, well practical and economical become somewhat important factors.  The Starship cost around $4 million back in the day and would sell for closer to 10 million if available new today. When spending that sort of money, the looks are optional,  it needs to earn it's keep.

People were basically better off buying a King Air at the time, similar performance and less maintenance hassles, and that is exactly what most people did.

Roy Norris when he shutdown production was quoted as saying “I made myself a promise that there would be no more airplanes that look like Klingon battle cruisers.”

These days a Socata TBM can pretty much outperform a Starship at a fraction of the purchase price and running costs.

[Richard230]

As usual, money and practicality will win the consumer market in the long run.  But personally, I kind of like Klingon battle cruisers.   

[GlennF]

The Starship was a bit like the Toyota LFA.

The people that wanted one could not afford it.   The people with the money to buy one wanted something more traditional.

LFA setting a class lap record at  Nürburgring ...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2fVY05-ouzM

[Richard230]

Here is the latest news regarding the Sondors Metacycle. Apparently it is on the move. But where are their dealers:  https://electrek.co/2022/06/26/sondors-metacycle-electric-motorcycle-shipping/

[axman88]

Sondors promised the first highway speed capable E-motorcycle to go into full production at a price point of
$5000.  The promised specs are in the first post of this thread.

Storm Sondors used "Go fund me" type financing to get the first production going.  He had done this to launch his successful E-bicycle business, first customers to commit were rewarded with lower pricing.

Customers paid down $100 to reserve a spot, then half the machine's cost a while later.   Many backed out at this point, and many more changed their mind later as the months stretched on and there was no sign of delivery. 

Some even said that the whole deal was a sham, that rows of half built machines shown in the few photos that Sondors posted  were just a few prototypes, expertly  Photoshopped to look like many.

But, it seems that Sondors has finally delivered their new product.  Video reviews from new owners have started popping up on U-Tube:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XG0swm5jz4M

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nOG5dfTwhIE

[Arschloch]

Beautiful, price is great. I'll wait though until our paying the balance gob. starts distributing them for free.

[Richard230]

A couple of years ago there was another freeway-legal electric motorcycle startup that claimed to have high performance, long range, low weight and a price that was much lower than other current models. Not only did they show a Chinese factory that they said was building their bikes, but they also produced videos of customers that had received their new bikes and showed them being ridden around town. At one point they also showed a photo of their local "factory" with a row of bikes under construction in the background. Then the entire operation seemed to just vaporize along leaving their customers' deposits twisting in the wind.

In that case, I have the feeling that the videos were produced by their employees claiming to be new customers and likely showed a handful of poorly hand-built prototypes that they produced before the rats slipped back into their hole getting ready for the next big thing. I no longer trust electric motorcycle startup claims until I actually see their products on a showroom floor and supported by an established motorcycle shop with an owner who has a throat that you can get your hands around if necessary. 

The Sondors Metacycle looks nice as to their performance claims and retail price. But I will let someone else be a beta-tester customer, until I know that the company is going to hang in there for the long haul. 

[axman88]

A couple of years ago there was another freeway-legal electric motorcycle startup that claimed to have high performance, long range, low weight and a price that was much lower than other current models.

I don't know if I'd call Sondors a "start-up".  They have been manufacturing E-bicycles since 2015.  Storm Sondors entered the market when top end e-bicycles were selling for $3k plus, and sold his for $1299, which had a beneficial effect on pricing for consumers all across the marketplace.  It's difficult to find sales figures, but I have found claims that about 17,000 units of Sondors E-bicycle had been sold by 2016, and there's been another 5-1/2 years of sales since.

It seems that buying a Sondors in 2022 is about the same  level of "buying from a start-up" as buying a Zero motorcycle was in 2012.

Sondors made the claim in 12/'21 that their new Metacycle had already SOLD more units than Zero and HD, but none of the three companies has released hard sales figures that I've seen.   Earlier this year I saw a figure of less than 2000 units total cumulative sales for Livewire.  Perhaps you have some info on Zero's average yearly output these days?

Sondors certainly hasn't delivered a lot of E-motos yet, but I think they will, even though the price has already been increased to $6500.  And I've seen reports that other manufacturers have already stepped forward to provide competitive products in the lower priced end of the E-moto market.

As for the Metacycle videos being fabrications, I'm very skeptical.   For one thing Sondors, according to finance documents available online, has a TINY US staff.  Also, maybe I'm old fashioned, but it's hard for me to imagine that an employee of the company would make the statement that the product's seat "squishes your balls".

https://youtu.be/R8fkCzvfWTY?t=450

Not the kind of language one expects from a shill.

[Richard230]

All of Zero's entire production of 2012 S and DS models (about 200) were recalled in 2018 when they started to catch on fire during charging. Zero blamed the battery cell supplier, EIG, and in return they blamed Zero for their design and assembly of the cells into the battery packs. I don't know who ended up footing the bill for the recall costs.

No one knows how many motorcycles that Zero produces and sells each year, as it is a deeply held secret by the company that they don't have to divulge as they are not publicly traded. However, some countries in Europe will publish sales figures for electric motorcycles, like France and the UK, but not the U.S. or Canada, who don't seem too interested in the subject.