Author Topic: Gun Nut Thread !  (Read 14977 times)

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Brian10x

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on: February 02, 2023, 01:25:24 am
For us gun and motorcycle nuts only!

I'll start.

Homemade 1911. Lots of sweat, some blood, and a lot of cussing. No numbers or names anywhere. Completely naked. Shoots like a bad girl's dream. (Smudge under the slide is just oil, not a defect!)

https://i.imgur.com/StAaMtv.jpg[/img]]

https://i.imgur.com/k016lJ0.jpg[/img]]

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AzCal Retred

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Reply #1 on: February 02, 2023, 01:35:12 am
Here's my back-up piece...

@ 00: This may not be the best thing to post about... ::) "No numbers or names anywhere."
« Last Edit: February 02, 2023, 01:38:27 am by AzCal Retred »
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him a layin

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Reply #2 on: February 02, 2023, 01:58:00 am
i believe hoplophile is the fancy word we're looking for
mauser c-96 , "prewar commercial", ~1912 .30 mauser. shoots but no rifling, unreliable.
Springfield Armory Inc. 1911a1, .45acp. if i carried, this would be it.
i also have couple of pocket pistols, i'll get to them soon.
i do carry pepper spray on my keyring. a couple of teens got all up in my face once, i'd rather not have to kill them. :(
« Last Edit: February 02, 2023, 02:14:07 am by him a layin »


gizzo

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Reply #3 on: February 02, 2023, 05:36:33 am
I misread the title and thought it was a nut gun thread. Was going to ask whether anyone's seen an adapter to fit Ryobi batteries to a Milwaukee or Dewalt tool. 'cause ryobi doesn't do a 3/8 nut gun and I have Ryobi batteries. Guess I could shoot the nuts off. Works all the time on the telly.
simon from south Australia
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him a layin

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Reply #4 on: February 02, 2023, 10:04:48 am
I misread the title and thought it was a nut gun thread. Was going to ask whether anyone's seen an adapter to fit Ryobi batteries to a Milwaukee or Dewalt tool. 'cause ryobi doesn't do a 3/8 nut gun and I have Ryobi batteries. Guess I could shoot the nuts off. Works all the time on the telly.
i'm having a similar problem with batteries for my chinese harbor freight tools. i've plenty of black and decker batteries but they don't fit the HF tools.
but no, not nut guns. so, south australia. perfect, i wanted to emigrate to austrailia when a teenager, then learned that just about everything is poisonous.
we have guns, you have poison teddy bears. fair enough.

as a late-comer to american gun culture, i'm aware of some of its quirks. but i come at it primarily from an interest in history and technology, and actual utility is another thing altogether. i shoot paper targets routinely, hope never to shoot at a living thing. meanwhile... the 1911 and its offshoots were invented by the fertile mind of John Moses Browning, and accepted into US service in... 1911. it shoots the .45 acp cartridge (another JMB invention) and served worthily through ww1, ww2, korean conflict and vietnam. standard capacity of this single-stack pistol is 7, i mostly use 8-round magazines, made possible by better metallurgy. here's that same 1911a1 as we saw before and a "subcompact" llama 1911 clone from spain. i say "subcompact" because while smaller in length and height, it's wider and carries an extra 2 rounds in its double-stack mag. the llama shares design and operating principles but no major parts with the actual 1911 and so far as i can tell weighs about the same.


gizzo

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Reply #5 on: February 02, 2023, 11:27:45 am
i'm having a similar problem with batteries for my chinese harbor freight tools. i've plenty of black and decker batteries but they don't fit the HF tools.
but no, not nut guns. so, south australia. perfect, i wanted to emigrate to austrailia when a teenager, then learned that just about everything is poisonous.
we have guns, you have poison teddy bears. fair enough.



Not everything in Australia is poisonous. A lot of things are venomous. Or have big teeth. You get used to it.
simon from south Australia
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GlennF

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Reply #6 on: February 02, 2023, 11:49:04 am
Not everything in Australia is poisonous. A lot of things are venomous. Or have big teeth. You get used to it.

Most of the dangerous stuff is protected by law and you get fined for killing it.

The pigs - not so much they are pretty much open season all year round.

In general Australia is not that dangerous for the locals.   

Tourists who do stupid things like swim in croc country, camp in a tent on the ground in pig country, pick up cute looking shiney sea creatures, swim in shark season, try and cuddle and pat the wildlife, leave their boots out uncovered overnight and not check them for things that may have crawled in or worse wander around picking up random things laying on the ground without judiciously poking them first will often be in for a nasty shock.
« Last Edit: February 02, 2023, 11:52:47 am by GlennF »


Brian10x

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Reply #7 on: February 02, 2023, 12:17:27 pm
Here's my back-up piece...

@ 00: This may not be the best thing to post about... ::) "No numbers or names anywhere."

The BATF has ruled that making a firearm for personal use is completely legal. No numbers or markings required. As long as you don't build a restricted or unlawful firearm as in full auto, etc.
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AzCal Retred

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Reply #8 on: February 02, 2023, 03:18:53 pm
Doesn't sound like it here. There's not a lot of valid reasons to build an untraceable firearm.

https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/frame-and-receiver-rule-goes-effect
Wednesday, August 24, 2022

Today, the Department of Justice Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) “Frame or Receiver” Final Rule goes into effect. The new rule modernizes the definition of a firearm and makes clear that parts kits that are readily convertible to functional weapons, or functional “frames” or “receivers” of weapons, are subject to the same regulations as traditional firearms. This rule will help curb the proliferation of “ghost guns,” which are often assembled from kits, do not contain serial numbers, and are sold without background checks, making them difficult to trace and easy to acquire by criminals.

“Last year, the Justice Department committed to modernizing our regulations to address the proliferation of ‘ghost guns’ that law enforcement officers across the country have increasingly recovered from crime scenes,” said Attorney General Merrick B. Garland. “These guns have often been sold as build-your-own kits that contain all or almost all of the parts needed to quickly build an unmarked gun. And anyone could sell or buy these guns without a background check.

“That changes today. This rule will make it harder for criminals and other prohibited persons to obtain untraceable guns. It will help to ensure that law enforcement officers can retrieve the information they need to solve crimes. And it will help reduce the number of untraceable firearms flooding our communities. I am grateful to the professionals across the Department who worked tirelessly to get this important rule finalized and implemented, and who did so in a way that respects the rights of law-abiding Americans.

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx


https://everytownresearch.org/report/atf-final-rule-ghost-guns/
4.12.2022 (04 Dec 2022 )
Ghost guns are the fastest-growing gun safety problem facing our country and have emerged as a weapon of choice for violent criminals, gun traffickers, dangerous extremists, and other people legally prohibited from buying firearms. Ghost guns are also the thread connecting a recent increase in gunfire on school grounds. Schools in Arizona, New Mexico, Maryland, and Kansas have been devastated by school shootings involving ghost guns – highlighting a scary trend and another important reason to regulate these dangerous weapons.

A trifecta of Pre-Unit Bullets: a Red Deluxe 500, a Green Standard 500, and a Black ES 350.


Brian10x

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Reply #9 on: February 02, 2023, 03:27:22 pm
I've done extensive research on this, including a conversation with the ATF.

There are many good reasons for building your own firearm. For me, I like making something with hard labor to call my own.

It is 100% legal, unless I build it with the intent to sell it. That is illegal.
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AzCal Retred

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Reply #10 on: February 02, 2023, 03:31:28 pm
Any actual references? Hearsay is cold comfort.
A trifecta of Pre-Unit Bullets: a Red Deluxe 500, a Green Standard 500, and a Black ES 350.


Arschloch

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Reply #11 on: February 02, 2023, 03:39:51 pm
Any actual references? Hearsay is cold comfort.

When the CCCP went belly up half of its arsenal was untraceable, you could buy an AK for 20$. When Selenaki finally defeats Russia you might be able to afford a tank.

...you should worry more about the folks who are in it for the nukes, that would be you.


him a layin

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Reply #12 on: February 02, 2023, 03:51:45 pm
Any actual references? Hearsay is cold comfort.
my understanding is that brian is correct, all perfectly legal to construct and possess firearms as long as you are not a "prohibited person" and they don't fall into some regulated category like full auto "machine gun" or SBR. for those, you essentially pay a tax and get a background check. selling them would be a very different matter. there's some legalistic "80% complete" breakpoint that distinguishes "parts" from "firearms". practically speaking, the ATF would be the people to ask.                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 


him a layin

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Reply #13 on: February 02, 2023, 04:07:22 pm
parts kits that are readily convertible to functional weapons, or functional “frames” or “receivers” of weapons, are subject to the same regulations as traditional firearms.
good thing i bought my 80% lower (for precisely this contingency) before this went into effect. wonder if i saved the receipt?
« Last Edit: February 02, 2023, 05:00:02 pm by him a layin »


AzCal Retred

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Reply #14 on: February 02, 2023, 04:45:18 pm
It's obvious that it's not a smart thing to advertise your ghost gun building on a public forum. With pictures no less.The real question is why you thought it was necessary to do so. Starting to look like the 06 January 2021 "selfie" phenomenon. With no numbers to track, no paper trail, proving date of construction might be tricky. What you do covertly inside your own home is your own issue. Advertising it on a public forum much less so. The working assumption must be that there is there is zero risk of blow-back to yourself. How that actually works out in 2023 is yet to be determined.
https://www.cnbc.com/2022/08/24/federal-ghost-gun-regulations-go-into-effect-after-judges-reject-challenges.html#:~:text=pause%20the%20change.-,The%20regulations%20require%20that%20the%20main%20components%20used%20to%20manufacture,and%20keep%20records%20of%20sales.

The regulations require that the main components used to manufacture ghost guns — the frames and receivers — be assigned serial numbers. They also require that buyers undergo background checks before purchasing the components and that dealers be federally licensed to sell the kits and keep records of sales.
A trifecta of Pre-Unit Bullets: a Red Deluxe 500, a Green Standard 500, and a Black ES 350.


Arschloch

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Reply #15 on: February 02, 2023, 05:14:24 pm
Still I don't understand why are you so worried about some guy building in his workshop a 1911 replica especially in a country where most anyone can just go and buy one. It must be "envy" that you can't do it yourself otherwise I can't find any explanation.


him a layin

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Reply #16 on: February 02, 2023, 05:27:17 pm
just ran afoul of the time limit for modifying posts, somewhere between 1 hour and 1 hour 15 minutes. no, i didn't save the receipt, so i can't prove when i bought my 80% lower.


AzCal Retred

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Reply #17 on: February 02, 2023, 06:01:33 pm
Still I don't understand why are you so worried about some guy building in his workshop a 1911 replica especially in a country where most anyone can just go and buy one. It must be "envy" that you can't do it yourself otherwise I can't find any explanation.

I like this Royal Enfield forum. I can care less what some amateur expiring gunsmith whomps up in his garage. I don't need the Forum to be attached in any way to the Alt-Reich ghost gun phenomenon. Allowing posting & discussing quasi-legal firearms here can blowback to the Forum sponsor IF it were ever to become an issue. There is zero point to discussing ghost gun manufacture here, save it for Truth Social of some such venue. To start posting missives & photos of your ghost gun accomplishments here demonstrates a disregard for the forum, its owners and common sense. If some agency needs a poster child to eviscerate, why offer them yourself on a platter? The 06 Jan Insurrectionists did this and how's that working out? At about 2 mass shootings a day, many involving "ghost guns", the climate is ripe for an object lesson. To your other "point" of willfully pretends to not understand the legal difference between a legally manufactured firearm and an unmarked ghost firearm courtesy of some hand-fitted parts: You are a smart guy, way too smart for that. We live in the mass-shooter political climate of 2023 USA. Putting this kind of stuff on this Forum is arrogant & disrespectful of the sponsor.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/brianbushard/2022/11/25/611-mass-shootings-recorded-so-far-in-2022-second-worst-year-for-gun-violence-in-almost-a-decade/?sh=7b83156e152c
https://www.nytimes.com/2022/12/07/world/europe/germany-coup-arrests.html
https://www.usatoday.com/storytelling/capitol-riot-mob-arrests/

xxxxxxxxxxxx

" no, i didn't save the receipt, so i can't prove when i bought my 80% lower. "
You are an enthusiast, not an acolyte, your electronic posts demonstrate that. Even so, if demonstrating hardware provenance ever became necessary even you could get hung out to dry by some ambitious prosecutor. The risk/benefit just isn't there in 2023.
Bye the bye, I think the post modding time limit is closer to 30 minutes.
« Last Edit: February 02, 2023, 06:06:07 pm by AzCal Retred »
A trifecta of Pre-Unit Bullets: a Red Deluxe 500, a Green Standard 500, and a Black ES 350.


Arschloch

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Reply #18 on: February 02, 2023, 06:33:25 pm
In a democracy the opposition seeks to overthrow the acting government every time there is elections, so why is this so worrisome to you?

I suspect most of those articles you've linked are not helpful to anyone either.
« Last Edit: February 02, 2023, 07:01:21 pm by derottone »


Brian10x

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Reply #19 on: February 02, 2023, 07:14:34 pm
Still I don't understand why are you so worried about some guy building in his workshop a 1911 replica especially in a country where most anyone can just go and buy one. It must be "envy" that you can't do it yourself otherwise I can't find any explanation.

I get a great deal of satisfaction in building things that work really well. I used to be an auto mechanic, and working with my hands is what I enjoy doing the most. Plus, I enjoy making something MY WAY. When I'm done, everything is fitted EXACTLY the way I want it. This means a great deal to me, weather it be an engine, a motorcycle, or a firearm. When I build it my way, then it is truly MINE.


My firearm hobby has nothing to do with killing or violence. I enjoy building guns, shooting guns, reloading ammunition. I think marksmanship is a valuable skill. Target shooting in the beauty and serenity of the Arizona desert is one of my favorite pastimes.
 Yes, I do clean up after myself.

I love guns, and I love shooting. Teaching firearm safety is a passion of mine. Its that simple, really.
« Last Edit: February 02, 2023, 07:20:18 pm by Brian10x »
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Arschloch

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Reply #20 on: February 02, 2023, 07:29:20 pm
... usually there's always someone who knows better to give you clever advice. It's those who you choose to listen to from whom you learn not those who you're mandated to listen to.

« Last Edit: February 02, 2023, 07:37:55 pm by derottone »


Brian10x

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Reply #21 on: February 02, 2023, 07:41:47 pm
... usually there's always someone who knows better to give you clever advice. It's those who you choose to listen to from whom you learn not those who you're mandated to listen to.

You are way too smart for me. Most of what you write I don't understand.

That, and I'm mildly (ONLY mildly) RETARDED.
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Arschloch

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Reply #22 on: February 02, 2023, 07:53:50 pm
Why're you retarded? Did you live in Sweden?


Brian10x

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Reply #23 on: February 02, 2023, 07:59:11 pm
My mother dropped me on my head when I was a child, and I did a few illicit drugs as well.

It didn't help any that I was born, and spent my formative years (0-29) in the people's republic of Hawaii.
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Arschloch

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Reply #24 on: February 02, 2023, 08:28:55 pm
I enjoyed building things that work well too, however that was before I became smart and unfortunate.  ::)

The 1911 you've crafted looks fantastic, AzCal probably has a point though, there's enough troubles involved in costom motorcycle exhaust those days even if it fulfills all legal requirements.
« Last Edit: February 02, 2023, 08:31:15 pm by derottone »


Brian10x

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Reply #25 on: February 02, 2023, 08:36:42 pm
The biggest problem with the BATF is what they say is legal this year might just be illegal next year, depending on their mood. (cough cough arm braces cough cough)
« Last Edit: February 02, 2023, 09:30:23 pm by Brian10x »
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Arschloch

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Reply #26 on: February 02, 2023, 09:29:17 pm
Oh...my autism is just returning, did you say something?


Leofric

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Reply #27 on: February 03, 2023, 01:01:22 am
Not everything in Australia is poisonous. A lot of things are venomous. Or have big teeth. You get used to it.
Not necessarily if you are bitten by them !


GlennF

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Reply #28 on: February 03, 2023, 02:11:59 am
Not necessarily if you are bitten by them !

Generally speaking the locals are well aware of the nature of the wildlife and do not get bitten.  Even drunken yobbo Aussies have more sense than to poke sticks at an Eastern brown or try and catch a Funnel Web.

It is tourists that go swimming in croc infested waterways or think that koalas are cute cuddly things to pick up and cuddle, or randomly pick up some pretty purple blue aquatic critter because they look colorful or worse randomly pick up rubbish on the ground without checking for spiders and snakes.


AzCal Retred

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A trifecta of Pre-Unit Bullets: a Red Deluxe 500, a Green Standard 500, and a Black ES 350.


him a layin

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Reply #30 on: February 03, 2023, 03:34:42 am
lovely creatures! <3


GlennF

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Reply #31 on: February 03, 2023, 03:46:11 am
lovely creatures! <3

yep, bunyip's can be annoying little buggers though, worse than bandicoots


GlennF

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Reply #32 on: February 03, 2023, 05:44:21 am
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue-ringed_octopus

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Redback_spider

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_brown_snake

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bunyip

Neither the King Brown nor the Redback are particularly deadly by Aussie standards.  Redbacks are unlikely to kill a healthy adult human especially if you get to hospital in time they might make you a bit crook though. (in contrast to the Sydney Funnel Web which really is quite dangerous and needs to be treated with respect)

But yeah we do have a couple of venomous snakes - as with the Funnel Web,  you just have to learn to treat them with respect.

The table below gives the top 25 species in order, their LD50, and their distribution. Of the top 25 there are actually five that are NOT Australian.  Note that the North American Rattle Snake make the list at number 23 slotting in between those old Aussie favorites,  the Small Eye Snake and the  Black Whip Snake.

Note that the various Taipans and Tiger Snakes are relatively rare -  but No. 2 on the list, the Eastern Brown, is relatively common and quite aggressive.

Quote

Facts and Figures: World's Most Venomous Snakes

http://www.avru.org/?q=general%2Fgeneral_mostvenom.html

Which snake species is the most venomous depends on the measure used. The average or the maximum venom yield from milking could be suggested, but these measures can be criticised as not reflecting the impact of a real bite. The measure generally acknowledged as best reflecting how dangerous a snake's venom is is that of LD50. The lower this number, the less venom is required to cause death. By that measure, the most venomous snake in the world is Australia's inland taipan (Oxyuranus microlepidotus).



1.   Inland taipan      0.025      Australia
2.   Eastern brown snake   0.053      Australia
3.   Coastal taipan      0.099      Australia
4.   Tiger snake      0.118      Australia
5.   Black tiger snake   0.131      Australia
6.   Beaked sea snake   0.164      Australia
7.   Black tiger snake    0.194 - 0.338   Australia
8.   Death adder      0.400      Australia
9.   Gwardar         0.473      Australia
10.   Spotted brown snake   0.360       Australia
11.   Australian copperhead0.560      Australia
12.   Cobra         0.565      Asia
13.   Dugite         0.660      Australia
14.   Papuan black snake   1.09         New Guinea
15.   Stephens' banded snake   1.36      Australia
16.   Rough scaled snake   1.36         Australia
17.   King cobra         1.80         Asia
18.   Blue-bellied black snake   2.13      Australia
19.   Collett's snake      2.38         Australia
20.   Mulga snake      2.38         Australia
21.   Red-bellied black snake   2.52      Australia
22.   Small eyed snake   2.67         Australia
23.   Eastern diamond-backed rattlesnake   11.4   North America
24.   Black whipsnake   >14.2      Australia
25.   Fer-de-lance   >27.8         South America
[/size]
« Last Edit: February 03, 2023, 06:01:51 am by GlennF »


gizzo

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Reply #33 on: February 03, 2023, 01:27:23 pm
Generally speaking the locals are well aware of the nature of the wildlife and do not get bitten.  Even drunken yobbo Aussies have more sense than to poke sticks at an Eastern brown or try and catch a Funnel Web.

It is tourists that go swimming in croc infested waterways or think that koalas are cute cuddly things to pick up and cuddle, or randomly pick up some pretty purple blue aquatic critter because they look colorful or worse randomly pick up rubbish on the ground without checking for spiders and snakes.
Haha there's always a bogan or 2 each year gets bitten by a tiger snake at the river. They (the bogan) see the snake on the riverbank, or swimming across the river and they try to shoo it away instead of leaving it alone.
 I accidentally chopped one that was swimming when I ran over it on my slalom ski.
My mate got bitten by a death adder when he was mowing the lawn. Thought it was a tree branch and threw it away. He nearly died and spent almost a year in hospital.

Everyone knows that drop bears are the worst, though.
simon from south Australia
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Richard230

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Reply #34 on: February 03, 2023, 02:42:51 pm
Wow! Tough crowd. Those snakes and spiders must have evolved by needing to be so poisonous. It makes me wonder why they had to be so nasty?  Something even worse must have been after them for dinner.  :o  A T-Rex maybe?  ;)
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GlennF

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Reply #35 on: February 03, 2023, 02:44:16 pm
There was mega-fauna but the indigenous first Australian population sort of wiped those out long ago.


Richard230

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Reply #36 on: February 03, 2023, 02:53:03 pm
There was mega-fauna but the indigenous first Australian population sort of wiped those out long ago.

I guess those guys were even tougher.
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gizzo

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Reply #37 on: February 03, 2023, 03:11:42 pm
I guess those guys were even tougher.
Nothing a few western diet based diseases couldn't handle. :'(

 
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Reply #38 on: February 03, 2023, 04:14:14 pm
20 of the top 25, and all of the top 10. o. kay.

i grew up in central florida where we have all 4 varieties of poisonous snake, though the copperhead and coral are rather rare. waded barefoot up and down the lakeshore, never had a problem. swam in lakes with alligators, which are not aggressive as alligators. you learn what to look for, and not to push your luck. the real threat is other humans.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2023, 04:19:24 pm by him a layin »


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Reply #39 on: February 04, 2023, 12:40:49 am
here's the loading mechanism for the sharps carbine (lightly modded), an early single-shot breech-loader. also known as a "paper-cutter" it came in both rifle and carbine versions. the operator would lower the loading lever to open the breech, inserting a paper cartridge containing ~50 grains of black powder and a .52 cal bullet. closing the breech would cut off the rear of the cartridge (hence the name), exposing the powder. ignition was via a percussion cap. berdan's shapshooters (among others) carried the rifle and the carbine was popular with cavalry and artillerists. metallic cartridges became available soon after the war, which sharps accommodated by the addition of an extractor.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2023, 12:43:54 am by him a layin »


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Reply #40 on: February 04, 2023, 03:06:45 pm
here's the infantry rifle (armi sport) and carbine(IAB). both made in italy.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2023, 03:09:16 pm by him a layin »


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Reply #41 on: February 04, 2023, 09:39:06 pm
20 of the top 25, and all of the top 10. o. kay.
Yes, makes things look pretty dangerous to me.


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Reply #42 on: February 04, 2023, 11:34:47 pm
Yes, makes things look pretty dangerous to me.
and not just snakes. there's the platypus, so cuddly-looking with its beady eyes, duckbill and pouch, but the poison claws, no thanks.


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Reply #43 on: February 05, 2023, 12:28:51 am
US model 1861 Springfield rifled musket. a percussion-fired muzzle-loader, it shot .58 cal hollow based minie' bullets. standard federal issue during the "recent unpleasantness", replaced the similar paper-tape primed model 1855. confederates started the war with civilian arms brought from home, or guns seized from federal arsenals, which were eventually replaced by the similar austrian lorenz or british enfield rifles. a trained soldier could load and fire 3 aimed shots a minute. based on design elements taken from the enfield, the '61 was updated but never entirely replaced by the easier-to-maintain model '63
« Last Edit: February 05, 2023, 12:31:56 am by him a layin »


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Reply #44 on: February 05, 2023, 01:24:42 am
US model 1861 Springfield rifled musket. a percussion-fired muzzle-loader, it shot .58 cal hollow based minie' bullets. standard federal issue during the "recent unpleasantness", replaced the similar paper-tape primed model 1855. confederates started the war with civilian arms brought from home, or guns seized from federal arsenals, which were eventually replaced by the similar austrian lorenz or british enfield rifles. a trained soldier could load and fire 3 aimed shots a minute. based on design elements taken from the enfield, the '61 was updated but never entirely replaced by the easier-to-maintain model '63

But, but, that's a bad assault rifle!  At least it was back then. And before then, we had assault knives, assault rocks.


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Reply #45 on: February 05, 2023, 10:10:45 pm
20 of the top 25, and all of the top 10. o. kay.

i grew up in central florida where we have all 4 varieties of poisonous snake, though the copperhead and coral are rather rare. waded barefoot up and down the lakeshore, never had a problem. swam in lakes with alligators, which are not aggressive as alligators. you learn what to look for, and not to push your luck. the real threat is other humans.
Can you tell the friendly alligators from the ones that might be feeling a bit peckish ?!


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Reply #46 on: February 05, 2023, 10:23:31 pm
Can you tell the friendly alligators from the ones that might be feeling a bit peckish ?!
yeah i noticed that, unfortunately too late to edit. what i meant to say was that alligators are less aggressive than crocodiles.
i don't think there actually are friendly alligators. the ones that try to eat you are definitely not friendly.

when i was 12 or 13 i mail-ordered a live foot-long south american caiman, which are even less friendly than alligators. the second time it mistook me for food i took it over to nearby gatorland in kissimmee, because i knew better than to turn it loose in the lake. they took it out on the bridge over their lake and dropped it in, but it never touched the water, the gators snagged it in mid-air.


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Reply #47 on: February 05, 2023, 10:26:03 pm
I love living in the Arizona desert. Nearly everything in the desert is trying to kill you.



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Reply #48 on: February 05, 2023, 10:43:59 pm
next US service rifle was the springfield trapdoor, the first standard-issue breechloader using metallic cartridges. although winchester and spencer repeaters were used by some of the federal army, the ordnance dept chose to try to save money by re-using the huge backlog of .58 muzzle-loaders. first, they sleeved them down to .55, cut a hatch in the rear of the barrel, added a firing pin and extractor. later, they sleeved them down to .50 cal, and in 1873 made new rifles in .45 cal with 70 grains of black powder, hence the .45-70 cartridge. trapdoor rifles and carbines served through the indian wars, and into spanish-american war and subsequent philippine insurrection, where it demonstrated its obsolescence vis-a-vis spanish mausers
« Last Edit: February 05, 2023, 10:47:28 pm by him a layin »


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Reply #49 on: February 06, 2023, 01:50:15 am
Can you tell the friendly alligators from the ones that might be feeling a bit peckish ?!

We only have crocodiles. Best to assume they're all always on the lookout for a meal. Do you know the difference between a crocodile and an alligator?  an alligator will see you later, A crocodile will see you in a while.

Sadly a young lady was killed by a shark in Western Australia on Saturday.
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Reply #50 on: February 06, 2023, 02:57:12 am
Sadly a young lady was killed by a shark in Western Australia on Saturday.
:( sharks no bueno.
i just read that the most dangerous beach in the US due to shark attacks is new smyrna beach in florida, near daytona. i used to surf there in the 70s, never saw any sharks but i'm sure they were there. i kept hearing stories and at some point i lost my nerve for paddling out and looking from underneath like a seal lunch.


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Reply #51 on: February 06, 2023, 03:38:05 am
Old-fashioned it may be, but it’s the classic wheel gun here. Pre-lock S&W 686-3. Beautiful machine, perfectly weighted, a pleasure to handle at the range. An engineering masterpiece. If I were to ever stray from the revolver it would be something in the CZ75 series. To these eyes it’s another work of art.


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Reply #52 on: February 06, 2023, 08:15:03 am
Old-fashioned it may be,
no pics, didn't happen. ;P


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Reply #53 on: February 07, 2023, 01:46:19 am
the 1860s had seen the introduction of self-contained cartridges and breech-loaders, and in 1887 chemist alfred nobel invented smokeless powder which produced higher velocities and greater range (note the pop-up aperture sight, below) with less fouling and telltale plume of smoke to give away the shooter's position or obscure their line of sight. it became immediately clear that single-shot black powder rifles were obsolete, so uncle sam solicited bids for new rifles, and the norwegian/danish team of krag and jorgensen won the contract, despite (or perhaps because) there was no shortage of american designs.
the model 1892 Krag-Jorgensen held 6 rimmed .30 cal. cartridges (contemporary with russian 7.62x54R and british .303) in an unusual side-opening magazine and featured a very smooth and fast single-lug bolt. when trying to upgrade to a more powerful cartridge, there were breakages which occasionally sent the bolt flying back into the shooters' face and despite improvements, by 1903 we were looking for a better rifle.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2023, 01:58:00 am by him a layin »


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Reply #54 on: February 07, 2023, 02:22:17 pm
The only time I owned a gun was when I was 13 and my dad bought me a Sears Roebuck single shot 22. I think the cost of the rifle was $13. It was a very basic gun. You had to insert the bullet into the chamber with your fingers after pulling the bolt back. Then you operated the bolt to seal the chamber. Pulling the trigger fired the gun and operating the bolt would extract the spent cartridge.

He would take me to the local county public gun range operated by a tough female sheriff with a big iron her hip. You didn't want to mess with her. She looked ready to shoot anyone who got out of line and she kept a tight reign on everyone on the firing line. "Ready on the left. Ready on the right. Ready on the firing line."

As usual there were all sorts of guns being fired at the range, including WWII rifles of all types and black powder guns. Some years later the range was shut down due to someone finding a spent bullet near their home a mile away on the other side of the tall hill which was being used as a backstop for the range. After that discovery the range was shut down and guns got the heave-ho. Eventually the site was converted into an archery range. But then something happened there too and the entire operation was shut down while the county tried to come up with some other use for the property. Before they could do that, the homeless moved in and put an end to any plan due to the homeless having lawyers in their pockets willing to file lawsuits while they trashed the property. I don't know what the site is being used for now. It is likely being returned to its original natural state as a garbage dump.  ::)
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Reply #55 on: February 07, 2023, 04:01:49 pm
finding a good range is always a concern. i usually go to flintlock valley range in the the uwharrie natl forest, run by the state DNR. here, let me get you a link. https://www.ncwildlife.org/Outdoor-Activities/Shooting-Ranges/Flintlock-Valley-Shooting-Range
i've seen 3 range safety officers in the 6 or 7 years i've been going there, and sometimes they're a bit arbitrary about the rules, but i've never had problems with safety there. the backstop is carved into the side of the hill, so you'd have to mess up pretty badly to shoot over it.


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Reply #56 on: February 08, 2023, 10:24:50 pm
next up, the model M1903, accepted into service in, um, 1903. i've not owned one of these, hence no pics. a mauser design, the US paid royalties for its use, which payments were suspended when we entered ww1, then resumed after the end of the war. a good strong and reliable bolt-action magazine fed rifle chambered first in the round-nosed .30-03 cartridge, later modded to the .30-06 (in 1906) with the change to the pointed, copper jacketed, flat-based "spitzer" bullet, which produced better aerodynamics, hence range. served ably as first-line rifle until 1936, the through ww1, korea and into vietnam in designated marksman variants.


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Reply #57 on: February 09, 2023, 11:00:46 pm
The only time I owned a gun was when I was 13 and my dad bought me a Sears Roebuck single shot 22. I think the cost of the rifle was $13. It was a very basic gun. You had to insert the bullet into the chamber with your fingers after pulling the bolt back. Then you operated the bolt to seal the chamber. Pulling the trigger fired the gun and operating the bolt would extract the spent cartridge.'
My father's 22 rifle was like that - I thought all 22 rifles were like that !


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Reply #58 on: February 10, 2023, 12:12:01 am
Can you tell the friendly alligators from the ones that might be feeling a bit peckish ?!

The ones that ignore you and just sun themselves on the bank are likely not the peckish ones.


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Reply #59 on: February 10, 2023, 12:18:31 am
My father's 22 rifle was like that - I thought all 22 rifles were like that !
that's pre turn-of the century (1900) technology. i currently own a mossberg 802 bolt-action mag-fed .22, which brings us up into the 1890s. had a ruger 10/22 semiauto. may keep the 802 because cheap to shoot.


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Reply #60 on: February 10, 2023, 01:22:27 am
. had a ruger 10/22 semiauto.

That was my favourite back when I used to be a gun owner. Seems like they're still available brand new, and in loads of different versions.
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Reply #61 on: February 10, 2023, 02:09:41 am
The Marlin lever guns with side ejection are very good basic weapons. Side ejection precludes the smokin'-hot-cartridge-down-the-collar trick and subsequent dance!
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Reply #62 on: February 10, 2023, 06:02:58 am
lever guns were never my thing but these are pretty. synthetics do nothing for me, but a nice grainy bit of walnut has its appeal.


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Reply #63 on: February 10, 2023, 02:39:57 pm
Here are Marlin 1895 Cowboy 45-70 Government Lever Action Rifle specs. The weight helps with the recoil. The magazine capacity is sufficient for its purpose. In 1895 it was formidable and remains so even today. The wiki article regarding cartridge performance is a good read. The whole point of a rifle is to accurately deliver maximum downrange energy, not "spray & pray"; that's what fragmentation grenades are for. War rifles shooting war "wounding" cartridges aren't intended for hunting, just inflicting maximum injury casualties on "the enemy". The lighter .223 ammunition is more designed for war department accounting purposes, per unit shipping is lower.

https://stockmarlinarms.com/marlin-1895-cowboy-45-70-govt-lever-action-rifle/
Barrel: 26″ Tapered octagon barrel with deep-cut Ballard-type rifling (6 grooves)
Twist Rate: 1:20″ R.H.9-shot tubular magazine
Stock: Straight-grip American black walnut; hard rubber butt plate; tough Mar-Shield® finish; blued steel fore-end cap.
Sights: Adjustable Marble semi-buckhorn rear Marble carbine front sight. Solid top receiver tapped for scope mount; offset hammer spur (right or left hand) for scope use. Serial number is on left side of receiver instead of tang allowing custom installation of a tang sight by a competent gunsmith.
Caliber: 45/70 Gov’t.
Capacity: 9-shot tubular magazine
Action: Lever action with squared finger lever; side ejection; solid top receiver; deeply blued metal surfaces; hammer block safety.
Overall Length: 44.5″
Weight: 8 lbs.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.45-70
Today, the traditional 405-grain (26.2 g) load is considered adequate for any North American big game within its range limitations, including the great bears, and it does not destroy edible meat on smaller animals such as deer due to the bullet's low velocity. It is very good for big-game hunting in brush or heavy timber where the range is usually short. The .45-70, when loaded with the proper bullets at appropriate velocities, has been used to hunt the African "big-five."[13] The .45-70 has been loaded and used to hunt everything from birds to elephants[citation needed] and the cartridge is still undergoing new development work.
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Reply #64 on: February 10, 2023, 02:42:49 pm
That was my favourite back when I used to be a gun owner. Seems like they're still available brand new, and in loads of different versions.

The 10/22, to my understanding, is the best selling rimfire rifle in all history, at least in the USA.  I need to post a pic of my homemade (legal!!) 10/22s. I made 2 of them , and they are pretty wild.

This weekend, between projects, I'll find some time to post.
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Reply #65 on: February 10, 2023, 03:07:18 pm
War rifles shooting war "wounding" cartridges aren't intended for hunting, just inflicting maximum injury casualties
tactical implications of your definition of "civilized warfare". after the european and american powers subdued the natives, it seemed that if you could wound one soldier, he falls down and it takes two more to drag him off the field. win-win-win. savages, on the other hand, stick a finger in the hole, taste their own blood and keep coming at you. the .223 was a deliberate attempt to exploit this while subverting the intent of the hague convention which banned use of hollowpoint, softpoint and dum-dum bullets for warfare on the basis that the wounds they produced were "inhumane". by using a lighter bullet we gained the dual benefits of being able to carry more ammo so important in the modern assault-rifle spray-and-pray context, and because it tumbles rather than simply penetrating, does more wounding damage.


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Reply #66 on: February 10, 2023, 03:10:05 pm
From the military tests that I've read, at proper velocity (+2500FPS) the 5.56 bullet fragments upon penetration, causing multiple wound cavities, thus increasing its lethality.
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Reply #67 on: February 10, 2023, 04:31:56 pm
I just read recently that Oswald who supposedly  assassinated JFK had a X4 scope on the rifle that supposedly killed the president.
X4. Really.Didnt realise he was that good a shot.
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Reply #68 on: February 10, 2023, 07:26:18 pm
The 6.5 Carcano, especially the rusted, clapped-out, shot-out war surplus models found by the barrelful in hardware stores at one time, are the obvious supreme choice of the 1,000 yard match shooter. Especially the telekinetic shooters, apparently they just "think" the bullet onto the target.

Any particular reason to seal investigation records for 50 years other than to protect the guilty? I don't think either Oswald or Ruby were underage minors.
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Reply #69 on: February 10, 2023, 09:39:48 pm
#61  ' The Marlin lever guns with side ejection are very good basic weapons. '
Isn't that a Winchester ?


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Reply #70 on: February 10, 2023, 10:40:42 pm
I just read recently that Oswald who supposedly  assassinated JFK had a X4 scope on the rifle that supposedly killed the president.
X4. Really.Didnt realise he was that good a shot.

I have always been partial to the conspiracy theory that Oswald missed and JFK was actually killed when a secret service weapon discharged accidently as the car sped off.


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Reply #71 on: February 11, 2023, 04:06:06 am
@ #69: Nope, Winchester is top eject.
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Reply #72 on: February 11, 2023, 02:24:21 pm
Pics or it never happened!

(copy of) Ruger 10/22 Charger made entirely (except for optic and magazine) from junk parts cobbled together from my scrap heap. Built from defective unfinished receiver and crap I had laying around. Reliable 87% of the time!

https://i.imgur.com/xybgllg.jpg[/img]]
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Reply #73 on: February 11, 2023, 03:09:26 pm
I have always been partial to the conspiracy theory that Oswald missed and JFK was actually killed when a secret service weapon discharged accidently as the car sped off.
How many billions to one chance would that be.No I think as he said he was a patsy and was abandoned by others there to take the rap.
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Reply #74 on: February 11, 2023, 05:32:46 pm
A trifecta of Pre-Unit Bullets: a Red Deluxe 500, a Green Standard 500, and a Black ES 350.


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Reply #75 on: February 11, 2023, 05:49:51 pm
For the ATF spies and lawyers in the group, if you start off with a blank receiver, it can be made into a pistol or rifle. Its starts off as an unfinished blank. If made for your own use, and not for sale, no identifying marks are necessary, as long as it does not fall within the NFA.

As I enjoy life outside of prison, I do my homework.
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Reply #76 on: February 11, 2023, 08:12:11 pm
" For the ATF spies and lawyers in the group "
That guy wouldn't be trying to give you a heads up, he'd keep perfectly quiet & likely already be spending the finders fee, capisce?

Another point Mr. Laissez-Faire homebuilder, is that it's 2023 AD, the operating environment constantly changes. It's good to verify what you think you know and possibly share that knowledge with other enthusiasts. The cost of error is high, trust but verify.

Here's what "gununiversity" in March, 2022 had to say:
https://gununiversity.com/build-glock-home-no-serial-number-no-registration/

Under federal law, it is currently perfectly legal to make your own firearm at home. These homemade firearms (standard rifles, shotguns, or handguns) do not need serial numbers, approval, or registration.

First, a couple of disclaimers:
This applies ONLY to federal law. Your state may restrict this activity and/or certain firearms
You must still file for approval with the ATF for NFA firearms (silencers, short-barreled rifles, etc.)

« Last Edit: February 11, 2023, 08:42:56 pm by AzCal Retred »
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Reply #77 on: February 11, 2023, 08:43:04 pm
I have always been partial to the conspiracy theory that Oswald missed and JFK was actually killed when a secret service weapon discharged accidently as the car sped off.
Don't know about Oswald missing but I thought a very convincing tv programme seemed to prove that a secret service agent travelling in one of the cavalcade of cars turned to fire at where Oswald's shot had come from ,the safety catch was off and the gun went off accidentally firing the fatal shot.


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Reply #78 on: February 11, 2023, 09:38:45 pm
i may have covered this already, if please excuse. lately my memory no so good.
when wWW1 broke out in europe, the US was slowly building stockpiles of the M1903 and Britain was in process of switching to a newer model of Enfield rifle, but couldn't manufacture them fast enough, so contracted with american gunmakers to build the new Pattern 13, accepted for service as the pattern14. chambered in the rimmed .303 cartridge it featured a sturdy, if a bit slow to operate bolt action. by the time the US entered the war in 1917, the contracts had been fulfilled, but rather than just shut the lines down, the US contracted to continue making them, now chambered in .30-06, the standard US cartridge. a bit heavier and bulkier than the 1917, by the end of the war 3/4 of US rifles in Europe were '17s. contrary to what you'll see in gary cooper's portrayal, Sgt Alvin York carried one (and a 1911, not a P08). after hostilities ceased, the US went back to making the M1903, partly at the behest of Woodrow Wilson who hoped that renewed royalty payments to Mauser would help the German economy recover. a lot of mothballed M1917s went overseas as foreign aid, notably to nationalist china when war broke out with japan in the 30s. this one was made just at the end of the war, and was done up as a parade and ceremonial rifle.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2023, 09:41:02 pm by him a layin »


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Reply #79 on: February 11, 2023, 10:06:23 pm
Leofric - the records were sealed for 50 years for SOME shady reason, that's for certain. Assassination by Secret Service would qualify. The sealing wasn't for Ruby & Oswald's benefit, right?
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Reply #80 on: February 13, 2023, 12:05:49 am
Leofric - the records were sealed for 50 years for SOME shady reason, that's for certain. Assassination by Secret Service would qualify. The sealing wasn't for Ruby & Oswald's benefit, right?
There wasn't a suggestion that it was a deliberate assassination by the Secret Service, it was an accident. But there were reports that members of the secret service had been up late the night before and some members of the team in the cavalcade had been assigned to duties different from their usual roles. I can't remember any more details.


AzCal Retred

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Reply #81 on: February 13, 2023, 12:10:08 am
Records aren't often sealed to protect the innocent. Historical events need clarity.
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GlennF

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Reply #82 on: February 13, 2023, 12:38:51 am
The elephant in the room is the hospital records from after the shooting remain classified even when everything else was released.


him a layin

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Reply #83 on: February 18, 2023, 02:00:32 pm
in the 1920s a competition brewed between John Garand and John Pedersen to develop a serviceable semi-automatic rifle, using a smaller .276 cartridge. Garand emerged the winner in 1936, thought still chambered in '30-'06 at the behest of Douglas Macarthur. the M1 Garand was the result, serving ably thru ww2 and korea, and as foreign aid well into the 60s and 70s. this one presumably went to the pacific theater, then occupied japan, then went as aid to korea, returning the the US in the 90s as a "blue sky re-import". lovingly reworked by a series of anonymous armorers, she's a mish-mash of parts, springfield receiver, remington barrel, national match oprod... still a good shooter.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2023, 02:03:03 pm by him a layin »


Richard230

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Reply #84 on: February 18, 2023, 02:18:42 pm
Those guns look interesting but if you live in California you can't even buy a plastic model of any of an old rifle or pistol. At least not legally. You would need to buy a real gun, pay a lot of money and go through the usual regulatory system to obtain one. But I doubt you can actually buy a non-firing model if you just wanted to display them on your wall like you might do with a model car or airplane. Apparently CA believes that a model gun is more dangerous than a real one as you might try to rob a bank with a non-working gun, be shot by the police as it looks like a real one and then you would sue the cops for shooting you when you couldn't shoot them in return. Or something like that.  ::)  I just don't get it.  ???

BTW, for the first time in years I saw Daisy BB guns being sold at my local hardware store. You should have seen how fast those guns sold out. They must have sold 50 in just two days before the supply ran out and I haven't seen any more since. I didn't even know it was still legal to own a BB gun in California, much less to sell them.  ::)
« Last Edit: February 18, 2023, 02:22:26 pm by Richard230 »
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Brian10x

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Reply #85 on: February 18, 2023, 02:27:25 pm
I really feel bad and sympathise for those in California, and in other areas of the world that can't enjoy my (other) hobby.

Here in Arizona, I can legally own select fire machine guns, silencers, and short barreled whatevers. This weekend I'm driving out into the desert to shoot some expired vegetables. I wish everyone could enjoy this freedom.
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him a layin

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Reply #86 on: February 18, 2023, 03:49:01 pm
f it. i'm just going to put this here. M14 bla bla bla...

Polytech (yes, chinese) semiauto m14 clone action in a homemade bullpup stock. fit and finish not right, reworking. meanwhile function is good, very definitely more compact and easier to handle.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2023, 03:53:40 pm by him a layin »


gizzo

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Reply #87 on: February 19, 2023, 12:01:17 am
I really feel bad and sympathise for those in California, and in other areas of the world that can't enjoy my (other) hobby.

Here in Arizona, I can legally own select fire machine guns, silencers, and short barreled whatevers. This weekend I'm driving out into the desert to shoot some expired vegetables. I wish everyone could enjoy this freedom.


It's ok, you go and have fun and don't worry about us. If you don't grow up in a cult, you don't really miss it.

The making part looks like fun though.

I still keep reading the thread title as "Nut Gun Thread"  ;D  I need to rebuild my air powered one. It does up tight but won't undo.
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Brian10x

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Reply #88 on: February 19, 2023, 12:14:09 am
I relate somewhat. I was born and raised in the leftist socialist paradise of Hawaii.  Great weather, high prices, no freedom. We had a very small gun culture and none of my friends were gun nuts.

Then I moved to Florida, then to Arizona. Oh, yeah.

https://i.imgur.com/43CWZFl.jpg[/img]]

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AzCal Retred

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Reply #89 on: February 19, 2023, 12:57:26 am
Not quite thru February yet and we're up to around 80 non-volunteer "Freedom Angels". Maybe we need an actual screening methodology...leading in gun related death isn't exactly a reason to celebrate "We're #1"...

                                                                                                                                                         killed   injured
2528239   February 18, 2023   South Carolina   Loris   3450 East SC 9 Business   0   4   
2527517   February 17, 2023   Mississippi   Coldwater   3196 Arkabutla Dam Road   6   0   
2528066   February 17, 2023   Georgia   Columbus   4499 Warm Springs Rd Connector   0   9   
2527234   February 15, 2023   Maryland   Baltimore   1400 block of E Fayette St   0   4   
2526362   February 15, 2023   Texas   El Paso   8401 Gateway Blvd W   1   4   
2525382   February 14, 2023   Pennsylvania   Pittsburgh   1101 N Murtland St   0   4   
2525634   February 14, 2023   New York   Buffalo   Crossman Ave and Heminway St   0   5   
2525591   February 13, 2023   New Jersey   Paterson   50 block of 12th Ave   0   4   
2524577   February 13, 2023   Michigan   East Lansing   509 E Circle Dr   4   5   
2523928   February 12, 2023   Mississippi   Louisville   309 E John C Stennis Dr   1   5   
2522649   February 10, 2023   New York   Brooklyn   3222 Mermaid Ave   0   4   
2522557   February 10, 2023   New York   Bronx   631 E Tremont Ave   2   2   
2521084   February 8, 2023   North Carolina   Laurinburg   Marcellus St   0   4   
2521112   February 8, 2023   Louisiana   New Orleans   Bullard Ave and Chef Menteur Hwy   2   4   
2521423   February 8, 2023   North Carolina   Elizabeth City   1000 block of Walker Ave   0   4   
2518860   February 6, 2023   Texas   Corpus Christi   2700 block of Persimmon St   1   4   
2518292   February 5, 2023   California   Stockton   1300 block of W Fremont St   1   3   
2518344   February 5, 2023   Arizona   Tucson   4000 block of E Agate Knoll Dr   1   3   
2518456   February 5, 2023   Arkansas   Newport   400 block of Clay St   1   4   
2518281   February 5, 2023   Colorado   Peyton   12252 Point Reyes Dr   2   3   
2517797   February 4, 2023   Texas   Huntsville   1505 19th St   2   2   
2516494   February 1, 2023   California   Los Angeles   711 E. 108 St   0   5   
2516309   February 1, 2023   Texas   Texas City   8601 Emmett F Lowry Expy   0   4   
2514902   January 31, 2023   North Carolina   Durham   4100 block of Sudbury Rd   2   2   
2514564   January 30, 2023   Florida   Lakeland   923 N Iowa Ave   0   11   
2514220   January 30, 2023   Texas   Dallas   5800 block of Bonnie View Rd   1   4   
2513512   January 29, 2023   Ohio   Columbus   1680 Karl Ct   1   3   
2513575   January 29, 2023   North Carolina   Greensboro   6400 W Market St   1   6   
2513517   January 28, 2023   South Carolina   Andrews   Birch Creek Rd   2   2   
2513496   January 28, 2023   Texas   Austin   12636 Research Blvd   2   3   
2513044   January 28, 2023   California   Beverly Hills   2799 Ellison Dr   3   2   
2513527   January 28, 2023   Pennsylvania   Philadelphia   Knorr St and Loretto Ave   0   4   
2512985   January 27, 2023   California   San Diego   62nd St and Akins Ave   1   3   
2512343   January 26, 2023   New Jersey   Newark   1079 Broad St   1   4   
2512617   January 26, 2023   Pennsylvania   Lancaster   525 N Franklin St   0   4   
2510365   January 24, 2023   North Carolina   Red Springs   100 block of Samuel Williams Dr   3   1   
2510063   January 23, 2023   California   Oakland   5910 MacArthur Blvd   1   4   
2509362   January 23, 2023   Illinois   Chicago   2909 E 78th St   2   3   
2509663   January 23, 2023   California   Half Moon Bay   12761 San Mateo Rd   7   1   
2508370   January 22, 2023   Louisiana   Baton Rouge   4619 Bennington Ave   0   12   
2508683   January 22, 2023   Mississippi   Robinsonville (Tunica Resorts)   1010 Casino Center Dr   0   4   
2508522   January 22, 2023   Louisiana   Shreveport   1600 Sugar Ln   1   7   
2507836   January 21, 2023   California   Monterey Park   122 W Garvey Ave   12   9   
2504645   January 17, 2023   Texas   Houston   6729 Lockwood Dr   0   4   
2503649   January 16, 2023   Florida   Fort Pierce   Avenue M and N 13th St   1   7   
2503345   January 16, 2023   California   Goshen   Harvest Ave and Rd 68   6   0   
2503245   January 16, 2023   Florida   Sanford   Rinehart Rd and Co Rd 46A   1   5   
2503058   January 15, 2023   Illinois   Rockford   2311 23rd St   3   2   
2502680   January 15, 2023   Texas   Houston   5121 FM 1960 Rd W   1   4   
2503178   January 15, 2023   Florida   Homestead   700 block of SW Sixth St   1   3   
2503197   January 15, 2023   Arizona   Phoenix   S 46th Pl and E Broadway Rd   0   4   
2502550   January 14, 2023   Missouri   Saint Louis (Moline Acres)   Berwyn Dr and Lanier Dr   0   4   
2501869   January 13, 2023   Ohio   Cleveland   3719 Mack Ct   4   1   
2499119   January 9, 2023   Minnesota   Minneapolis   2218 E Lake St   0   4   
2499381   January 9, 2023   Pennsylvania   Philadelphia   3300 block of Guilford St   3   1   
2498792   January 9, 2023   Colorado   Denver   18th St and Blake St   0   4   
2498013   January 8, 2023   Minnesota   Minneapolis   930 Hennepin Ave   0   4   
2499425   January 8, 2023   Georgia   Albany   1021 S McKinley St   0   4   
2497948   January 7, 2023   Alabama   Huntsville   2817 Hwy 72 E   2   9   
2497502   January 7, 2023   North Carolina   High Point   2734 Mossy Meadow Dr   5   0   
2496714   January 6, 2023   Texas   Dallas   8544 Lazy Acres Cir   3   2   
2497164   January 6, 2023   California   San Francisco   600 block of Valencia St   1   3   
2496431   January 5, 2023   Louisiana   New Orleans   St Andrew St and Rev John Raphael Jr Way   2   3   
2496391   January 5, 2023   Florida   Miami Gardens   17647 NW 27th Ave   0   10   
2495648   January 4, 2023   Utah   Cedar City (Enoch)   4923 N Albert Dr   8   0   
2494934   January 4, 2023   Maryland   Baltimore   4408 Edmondson Ave   1   4   
2495059   January 4, 2023   Virginia   Dumfries   17900 block of Milroy Dr   1   4   
2494254   January 3, 2023   District of Columbia   Washington   6200 block of Georgia Ave NW   1   3   
2494425   January 3, 2023   Louisiana   New Orleans   2600 block of S. Rocheblave St   0   5   
2492448   January 1, 2023   Florida   Ocala   1600 block of SW 5th St   2   4   
2492601   January 1, 2023   Illinois   Chicago   300 block of E 57th St   1   3   
2497601   January 1, 2023   Florida   Miami Gardens   NW 171st St and NW 30th Ave   0   9   
2492611   January 1, 2023   North Carolina   Durham   1000 N Miami Blvd   0   5   
2493102   January 1, 2023   Pennsylvania   Allentown   1140 E Clair St   0   4   
2492314   January 1, 2023   Ohio   Columbus   2830 Johnstown Rd   1   4   

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Brian10x

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Reply #90 on: February 19, 2023, 01:45:04 am
My guns haven't killed anybody.
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Yogi

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Reply #91 on: February 19, 2023, 02:14:47 am
I took my Uzi Model B out today, strapped it to the interceptor, and rode about fifty miles to meet a friend who owns a suppressor. We fired off a few hundred rounds of FMJ .45 ACP . We also shot his AR-15.
It was a hoot ! I love shooting with my friends. With the suppressor we really didn’t need ear protection.


him a layin

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Reply #92 on: February 19, 2023, 02:24:50 am
My guns haven't killed anybody.
that we know of. a couple of my GI rifles, who knows?
the 2nd amendment/violence with guns issue is complex. certain aspects of it seem quite clear to me, others not so much. simplistic slogans on either side don't help.


him a layin

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Reply #93 on: February 19, 2023, 02:28:29 am
I took my Uzi Model B out today, strapped it to the interceptor, and rode about fifty miles to meet a friend who owns a suppressor. We fired off a few hundred rounds of FMJ .45 ACP . We also shot his AR-15.
It was a hoot ! I love shooting with my friends. With the suppressor we really didn’t need ear protection.
you know the rule: no pics, didn't happen. if your bike has a rifle scabbard i'd like to see it.
i like to go to a not-too-distant range about once a month. my annual pass has expired, i'll need to renew on the way in next time. https://www.ncwildlife.org/Outdoor-Activities/Shooting-Ranges/Flintlock-Valley-Shooting-Range
« Last Edit: February 19, 2023, 02:52:02 am by him a layin »


YOUR NAME HERE

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Reply #94 on: February 19, 2023, 02:43:40 am
I relate somewhat. I was born and raised in the leftist socialist paradise of Hawaii.  Great weather, high prices, no freedom.

Not to bend this thread even further, but it’s gotta be said: There’s zero connection between Democrats and “leftist/socialists”... If there was a legitimate organized left in this country, nobody sent me an invite. What we’ve got here is two colors of billionaires playing citizens for suckers. Keep going far enough left and you get your guns back. “Under no pretext...” etc

One more reason to love ear protection and lane dividers at the range: no hearing folks talk about the current president while hilariously using the “s” word.


Brian10x

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Reply #95 on: February 19, 2023, 03:54:31 am
I took my Uzi Model B out today, strapped it to the interceptor, and rode about fifty miles to meet a friend who owns a suppressor. We fired off a few hundred rounds of FMJ .45 ACP . We also shot his AR-15.
It was a hoot ! I love shooting with my friends. With the suppressor we really didn’t need ear protection.

The first time shooting with a suppressor without ear pro it felt like I was naked. Very weird the first time.
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Brian10x

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Reply #96 on: February 19, 2023, 03:58:00 am
Someday I'd like to see a list of the names of the people that have alcohol related deaths.

I think you should have to pass a background check and have a licence to buy alcohol!
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AzCal Retred

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Reply #97 on: February 19, 2023, 05:08:14 am
Ummm...national minimum drinking age requirement is 21? There's a start. Most folks have a driver's license by then, at least in rural & suburban areas. So some screening, at least an ID. Driving/operating equipment impaired is actually illegal. An automobiles/motorcycles primary function is transportation, drinking alcohols primary function is recreation, a firearms primary function is a hunting aid allowing you to kill at a safe/useful distance. Recreational shooting (punching paper) is fun, as is recreational auto driving and motorcycle riding. All those activities require a certain amount of applied smarts to avoid collateral damage. Folks that can't provide the minimum requirements to avoid inadvertently entangling other people in their recreational pursuits should take up different hobbies. A driver's license proves that you (at least at one time) KNOW the right way to do this and have agreed to not inadvertently involve others in your activity.

Long guns are legally OK at 18. Grandpas, Uncles & sometimes Parents supply them at 8 - 10 years old, I've seen it often. A single shot .22 rifle is reasonable with supervision, but revolvers, semi-auto pistols and replica "black-rifles" are common gifts too. Usually an ego trip for the giver.

Also, six year olds are now toting guns to class to settle scores, not a lot of foresight and self control at that age. Two events so far this year, one actual shooting, one intended shooting. Tough to explain that away except that the adult gun owner in the house may not actually be mentally or emotionally qualified to be trusted with deadly weapons around the house.

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tooseevee

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Reply #98 on: February 19, 2023, 11:57:24 am
Not to bend this thread even further, but it’s gotta be said: There’s zero connection between Democrats and “leftist/socialists”... If there was a legitimate organized left in this country, nobody sent me an invite.

            If you don't believe that there is an organized political Left Wing in the good ol' US of A you have not been paying any attention to political current events, both domestic & foreign, for the past 50 or 60 years. How do you think radical Left Wing Activists are elected? How do you think 100s of millions of dollars get spent electing radical left wing candidates if there are no organizational entities involved?

            Anyway. 'Nuff sed. I'll be thrashed & burned like a borrowed bike even for daring to say this much. I've been on these forums a long time & there is a definite lean to the left even here.
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Reply #99 on: February 19, 2023, 02:07:26 pm
Speaking of "gun nuts", there was an article published in my newspaper yesterday by the Associated Press titled "Oregon attempts to cut down on paramilitaries". The first paragraph says: SALEM, ORE. An armed takeover of a federal wildlife refuge. Over 100 straight days of racial justice protests that turned downtown Portland into a battleground. A violent breach of the state Capitol. Clashes between gun-toting right-wingers and leftist militants."

The article says that the Oregon state legislature is considering a bill that would provide private citizens and the state AG with civil remedies in court if armed members of a private paramilitary group interferes with or intimidates another person who is engaging in a legal activity.

The article ends with: "But dozens of conservative Oregonians, in written testimony, have expressed suspicion that the Democrat-controlled Legislature aims to pass a bill restricting the right to assemble and that the legislation would target right-wing armed groups like the Proud Boys and the Patriot Prayer, but not black-clad anarchists."
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Yogi

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Reply #100 on: February 19, 2023, 02:12:24 pm
Ummm...national minimum drinking age requirement is 21? There's a start. Most folks have a driver's license by then, at least in rural & suburban areas. So some screening, at least an ID. Driving/operating equipment impaired is actually illegal. An automobiles/motorcycles primary function is transportation, drinking alcohols primary function is recreation, a firearms primary function is a hunting aid allowing you to kill at a safe/useful distance. Recreational shooting (punching paper) is fun, as is recreational auto driving and motorcycle riding. All those activities require a certain amount of applied smarts to avoid collateral damage. Folks that can't provide the minimum requirements to avoid inadvertently entangling other people in their recreational pursuits should take up different hobbies. A driver's license proves that you (at least at one time) KNOW the right way to do this and have agreed to not inadvertently involve others in your activity.

Long guns are legally OK at 18. Grandpas, Uncles & sometimes Parents supply them at 8 - 10 years old, I've seen it often. A single shot .22 rifle is reasonable with supervision, but revolvers, semi-auto pistols and replica "black-rifles" are common gifts too. Usually an ego trip for the giver.

Also, six year olds are now toting guns to class to settle scores, not a lot of foresight and self control at that age. Two events so far this year, one actual shooting, one intended shooting. Tough to explain that away except that the adult gun owner in the house may not actually be mentally or emotionally qualified to be trusted with deadly weapons around the house.



Since you advocate a license and/or ID and screening in order to exercise a right constitutionally guaranteed to all US citizens, which other rights are you willing to call for a license to invoke, the right to free speech, or perhaps voting ?

For what it’s worth , 21 is the national age for a handgun and an ID and background check are needed for all newly purchased arms.

The constitution specifically states and guarantees rights to all at 18 years of age. Do we need a constitutional convention to address this ?

While shooting , hunting, and collecting arms is a hobby for many, the second amendment has nothing to do with hobbies,hunting,or shooting paper.

In fact if any state legislature decided to end hunting in their state, they could probably do so with a majority vote and the stroke of a pen. Same goes for driving and alcohol sales.

The second amendment is a check on tyranny and the potential to defend one’s self from such a government.

Purchasing and teaching the younger generations about firearms safety and how to handle a variety of weapons is the best insurance against accidents and ignorance, while reducing the risks associated when pointing such arms at anything.

As far as kids toting guns to class, a lot of these shootings that have occurred had been reported to authorities and basically ignored until it went sideways. However, in all cases it is just easier to blame an inanimate object for the failings of society.



him a layin

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Reply #101 on: February 19, 2023, 02:15:22 pm


Yogi

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Reply #102 on: February 19, 2023, 02:25:06 pm
Quote
this should be vague enough
https://fullsuitcase.com/phuket-island-hopping/

Is that a good shooting place?


Also, to answer your earlier question, I don’t have a scabbard for the uzi, just a soft case and bungee cord to attach it to the bike. I do, in fact , have a scabbard to attach a M-1 carbine to my Harley although I don’t think I’ve ever used it .


Brian10x

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Reply #103 on: February 19, 2023, 02:57:31 pm
Since you advocate a license and/or ID and screening in order to exercise a right constitutionally guaranteed to all US citizens, which other rights are you willing to call for a license to invoke, the right to free speech, or perhaps voting ?

For what it’s worth , 21 is the national age for a handgun and an ID and background check are needed for all newly purchased arms.

The constitution specifically states and guarantees rights to all at 18 years of age. Do we need a constitutional convention to address this ?

While shooting , hunting, and collecting arms is a hobby for many, the second amendment has nothing to do with hobbies,hunting,or shooting paper.

In fact if any state legislature decided to end hunting in their state, they could probably do so with a majority vote and the stroke of a pen. Same goes for driving and alcohol sales.

The second amendment is a check on tyranny and the potential to defend one’s self from such a government.

Purchasing and teaching the younger generations about firearms safety and how to handle a variety of weapons is the best insurance against accidents and ignorance, while reducing the risks associated when pointing such arms at anything.

As far as kids toting guns to class, a lot of these shootings that have occurred had been reported to authorities and basically ignored until it went sideways. However, in all cases it is just easier to blame an inanimate object for the failings of society.


I was being sarcastic.
I tell gun-haters that I will be willing to consider further restrictions to my right to keep and bear arms IF, and only IF prohibition returns.

Since alcohol abuse is far more deadly than firearm incidents, I propose a return to total alcohol prohibition, including "medicinal purposes" and "religious ceremonies", with accompanying severe punishments.

After a time, restrictions can be reduced to allow the purchase of alcohol after passing a safety course and paying for a licence. Then, liability insurance would have to be purchased, and an insurance card would have to be carried at all times. A 50% tax will be applied to go towards "alcohol safety" (into politician's pockets of course) and a person must wait a 30 day "cooling off" period after applying for alcohol purchase
before the purchase and consuming of the beverage. Alcoholic beverages will be limited to 4 ounces for hard liquor and 12 ounces for beer and wine, because no one "needs" more than one drink.

How am I doing so far?
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AzCal Retred

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Reply #104 on: February 19, 2023, 04:31:36 pm
@ #100: Free speech on public airways? How about fact-based speech on public airways, save the unsubstantiated raving for the individual on a soap box in the park. Getting rid of the "Fair & Balanced" requirement opened the door to all of this corporate profit driven button pushing hyperbole. I remember Cronkite. Fox isn't Cronkite.
In 1984, the Supreme Court ruled that Congress could not forbid editorials by non-profit stations that received grants from the Corporation for Public Broadcasting (FCC v. League of Women Voters of California, 468 U.S. 364 (1984)). The court's 5-4 majority decision by William J. Brennan Jr. stated that while many now considered that expanding sources of communication had made the fairness doctrine's limits unnecessary.

As to B10X's point, probably a good idea. As a child of an abusive alcoholic I have seen the outcome of excess drinking. Prohibition didn't show up from a vacuum.
The individual is allowed to make up to 200 gallons of beer and/or wine per year. That this would be tracked is unlikely. Personally I've never seen anyone become a brewer or vintner because they needed "mass quantities", mostly it's too much effort. But that path remains open. It might stimulate the economy though, millions of people buying beer brewing & wine making supplies.
« Last Edit: February 19, 2023, 04:56:45 pm by AzCal Retred »
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Reply #105 on: February 19, 2023, 05:06:04 pm
Quote
Free speech on public airways


Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

Yes free speech , everywhere and unfettered , especially the airwaves, but also in the park or pub as well.
The fairness doctrine is not needed when all people are free to speak their minds.


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Reply #106 on: February 19, 2023, 05:10:00 pm
@ #100: Free speech on public airways? How about fact-based speech on public airways, save the unsubstantiated raving for the individual on a soap box in the park. Getting rid of the "Fair & Balanced" requirement opened the door to all of this corporate profit driven button pushing hyperbole. I remember Cronkite. Fox isn't Cronkite.
In 1984, the Supreme Court ruled that Congress could not forbid editorials by non-profit stations that received grants from the Corporation for Public Broadcasting (FCC v. League of Women Voters of California, 468 U.S. 364 (1984)). The court's 5-4 majority decision by William J. Brennan Jr. stated that while many now considered that expanding sources of communication had made the fairness doctrine's limits unnecessary.

As to B10X's point, probably a good idea. As a child of an abusive alcoholic I have seen the outcome of excess drinking. Prohibition didn't show up from a vacuum.
The individual is allowed to make up to 200 gallons of beer and/or wine per year. That this would be tracked is unlikely. Personally I've never seen anyone become a brewer or vintner because they needed "mass quantities", mostly it's too much effort. But that path remains open. It might stimulate the economy though, millions of people buying beer brewing & wine making supplies.

Come to think of it, breweries and distilleries are factories producing weapons of mass destruction.
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AzCal Retred

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Reply #107 on: February 19, 2023, 06:30:58 pm
...don't forget automobiles, electrical appliances, soda pop machines, commercial air lines, and many more speciously unrelated topics.

...Free speech doesn't relate to insane gibberish designed to attract & deliberately wind up people over public airwaves to sell timeshares, organic survival seed collections and faux gold coins. Free speech 200 years ago was limited to mechanical vibrations in the air from some corner proselytizer that you could throw tomatoes at. Dissemination of seditious opinion in lieu of provable factual content got you hung in the wayback. Hiding commercially motivated crazy behind "free speech" is wrong and you know it. You can't have a stable society without a common set of verifiable facts. MTG ranting and conspiracy theories won't cut it when the Chinese hammer Taiwan and Putin moves in a seriously hard way on Ukraine. Qanon won't save you, but organized rational thoughtful choices may.
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Reply #108 on: February 19, 2023, 06:54:24 pm
now i'm sorry that i participated in, and contributed to this foolishness. please accept my apologies. i was just in the grocery store and found myself marvelling that we seem to feel compelled to wear our politics, our religion, our entire identity on our literal sleeves or foreheads like some putative mark of the beast. there is some thing, some things seriously wrong with our society and i can't lay all the blame on putin's interference. if i could go back and delete my posts here, i would. y'all take care, hear?


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Reply #109 on: February 19, 2023, 09:07:15 pm
Quote
  Free speech doesn't relate to insane gibberish designed to attract & deliberately wind up people

Of course it does, hence that progressive word salad that constitutes your last post- it comes off as drivel to me but you have every right to say it. See how that works? Free speech is free speech, who you trust and where you source your information is up to the individual.


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Reply #110 on: February 19, 2023, 09:34:57 pm
Of course it does, hence that progressive word salad that constitutes your last post- it comes off as drivel to me but you have every right to say it. See how that works? Free speech is free speech, who you trust and where you source your information is up to the individual.

You said it better than I could. Very good sir.
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Reply #111 on: February 19, 2023, 10:12:22 pm
"who you trust and where you source your information is up to the individual"

Word salad? What's that - anything you don't immediately agree with? Are you still "doing your own research" on Covid-19, Lizard People, Paedophile rings in the basements of pizza parlors that have no basement, "President Hillary", Global Warming/Climate Change/Human induced environmental alterations/etc.? That would take a helluva R&D budget, time &  subject matter expertise. Actual NEWS (as differentiated from sound-byte word salad or dog whistles) contains objective facts from observers and SME's. The NEWS is expected to be factually correct. People make decisions based on what they believe to be objective, verifiable repeatable data. Having on public airwaves "news" sources that specialize in dissemination of conspiracy theory entertainment is bad practice. Even the National Enquirer runs "Bat Boy" stories to clue in the dimmer members of its readership that they are largely parodic entertainment. It used to be expected and mandated that public news sources made every effort to accurately report the news, but that all ended in 1985. Now I have to listen to my Fox spouting relatives & acquaintances regurgitate Pizzagate stories and tell me about the "Stolen Election". All of this in the absence of real-world corroboration. Doesn't phase them a bit. So yeah, public NEWS sources need to have their facts straight (from sources other that Qanon) and try to be "pre-1985 fair & balanced" or we get what we have now - folks that make decisions based on navel lint. Even the FOX talking heads don't believe what they spout off about should be on the air.

https://www.nbcnews.com/media/private-fox-news-stars-staff-blasted-election-fraud-claims-bogus-court-rcna71123

https://www.washingtonpost.com/media/2023/02/16/fox-news-2020-lies-dominion-suit/

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Reply #112 on: February 19, 2023, 10:18:44 pm
AZretired-You are undoubtedly a really intelligent person. I say that sincerely.

But you ramble on and on and on. Some of it doesn't make any sense to me.

But I admit, I am mildly retarded, so consider the source here.


https://i.imgur.com/JHQJiXh.jpg[/img]]
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Reply #113 on: February 19, 2023, 10:20:39 pm

Anyone remember the street sweeper ?

https://i.postimg.cc/9ftX5jq8/thumbnail.jpg
« Last Edit: February 19, 2023, 10:36:00 pm by Yogi »


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Reply #114 on: February 19, 2023, 10:23:08 pm
I think Forgotten Weapons did a video on it. In my opinion, more of a gimmick. Looks scary, but a reliable box mag fed shotgun could do much better. Again, in my opinion.

Would I like to own one? Hell yeah!
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Reply #115 on: February 19, 2023, 10:33:43 pm
Yes a gimmick to upset people because it looked scary. It was like turning the amp up to 11, what’s the point ? I really have no desire to own one, but they were controversial at the time. To each his own. The Russian Saiga shotguns were much better and more reliable.


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Reply #116 on: February 19, 2023, 10:35:01 pm
@122: So, all discussions should essentially be the "Yep/Nope" model? And that furthers what, exactly? Without examples you are just expected to believe what I tell you? We can see that's not working.
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Reply #117 on: February 19, 2023, 10:39:24 pm
What does @122 refer to?  Explain it to me like I was a child so I can understand.
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Reply #118 on: February 20, 2023, 12:37:05 am
 Brian10X - what is your favorite revolver  ?


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Reply #119 on: February 20, 2023, 12:45:54 am
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Reply #120 on: February 20, 2023, 01:28:06 am
@ #117: Probably means I typed 122 instead of 112.
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Reply #121 on: February 20, 2023, 02:04:10 am
My wife carries a SW M19- 4” . She loves shooting.38 through it at the range but loads .357 for every day carry.

I have my Dad’s old work horse,  a .38 SW model 10. I open carry with it sometimes. Great gun, almost standard issue for LEO until semi- automatic pistols took their places in the eighties.


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Reply #122 on: February 20, 2023, 02:13:15 am
I've rebuilt a lot of police trade-in model 10s.

A long time ago, they were extremely cheap and common. I taught myself how to do trigger jobs on the model 10, and also how to refinish.

For around $300.00, a spring  kit,  and some elbow grease you could end up with a rugged, accurate revolver that could go head to head with any new mass produced revolver.
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Reply #123 on: February 20, 2023, 02:30:10 pm
In California, every month there is at least one gun buyback event by a city or county. Gun owners will get one or two hundred dollars to turn in their guns or any type. Typically, the news media reports that a couple of hundred guns of all types are turned in for the money. They are collected by the cops at a well publicized event. After collecting the guns, they are crushed and sometimes melted down into farm implements. Either that or a good one might end up in some cop's personal gun collection.  ::)
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Reply #124 on: February 20, 2023, 02:31:52 pm
            If you don't believe that there is an organized political Left Wing in the good ol' US of A you have not been paying any attention to political current events, both domestic & foreign, for the past 50 or 60 years.

If that’s the case, it ain’t “organized” enough. Corporate profits are at an all-time high while people are resorting to gofundme to pay their hospital bills: that’s about as far from socialism as you can get.

Meanwhile Fox News carries on moaning about “mainstream media bias” when their ad revenue makes them as mainstream as anyone. Today’s dems are toothless moderates, and the repubs forgot that they share this land with other people and when they speak of “freedom and liberty,” that automatically includes a world of stuff they won’t agree with.

Eventually you gotta admit we’re all being played. Made to argue stupid nonsense while politicians of both parties roll around with their corporate sponsors. Every billionaire is a policy failure.

Now. Back to bikes ‘n guns. Two tastes that taste great together.


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Reply #125 on: February 20, 2023, 02:32:50 pm
That always bugs the ever living crap out of me.

You can't buy back something you never owned in the first place!
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Reply #126 on: February 20, 2023, 04:18:17 pm
@ #124: +1
The "playor" is dark pac business money. Ever since businesses (machines of commerce) were judged to be people, the weezilly stuff has accelerated. The 3rd world treatment of the residents of East Palestine Ohio after the recent train wreck is one example.
If corporations are indeed people, send them off to the next war, put the corporate violators in jail if they break the law and make them pay actual taxes. Slap on the wrist fines won't cut it.
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Reply #127 on: February 20, 2023, 05:00:11 pm
Brian,

Do you have any experience with the Remington Tac-14 shotgun? If so what are your thoughts on it?


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Reply #128 on: February 20, 2023, 05:12:32 pm
Used to have one, worked very well.
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Reply #129 on: February 20, 2023, 08:15:26 pm
All the pistol you'll ever need. .45 Long Colt, 6 rounds, no incriminating cases spewing around. Works as well today as it did in 1873.
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Reply #130 on: February 20, 2023, 08:18:15 pm
I agree, but I just call it 45 Colt.  No long or short about it.

255 grains does a lot of hurting. A brace of 2 pistols is pretty good firepower, even today.
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Reply #131 on: February 20, 2023, 10:13:44 pm
Just because it makes me laugh...
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AzCal Retred

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Reply #132 on: February 21, 2023, 12:49:29 am
...right to the heart... ;D ;D ;D
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Reply #133 on: March 19, 2023, 01:50:31 am
took my polytech (yes, chinese) m14s to the range today. top string of 4 is mine, amigo chris did the lower group after observing that i was hitting high. iron sights, 80 yds,  bipod.


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Reply #134 on: March 19, 2023, 02:41:35 am
Good shootin' Tex! Looks like anything the size of a coffee cup 240 feet away is in real trouble!  ;D The .308 is serious medicine.
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Reply #135 on: March 19, 2023, 02:55:55 am
Good shootin' Tex! Looks like anything the size of a coffee cup 240 feet away is in real trouble!  ;D The .308 is serious medicine.
thanks! :)
i have an AR and appreciate its handiness, but the .308 gives a nice satisfying shove to the shoulder. if there wasn't a dearth of large rifle primers, i'd be working up loads for 168 and 175 grain bullets, but for now LC and WWB 147 grn will have to do. i think the polytech would be my shtf rifle. let's hope it never comes to that.


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Reply #136 on: March 19, 2023, 03:02:49 am
Still reading this as "Nut Gun Thread"...
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Reply #137 on: March 19, 2023, 03:15:01 am
Still reading this as "Nut Gun Thread"...
if you post enough pictures, i bet you can make it about nut guns.


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Reply #138 on: March 19, 2023, 03:38:37 am


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Reply #139 on: March 19, 2023, 03:46:22 am
  ;D


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Reply #140 on: March 19, 2023, 04:03:06 am
...
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Reply #141 on: March 19, 2023, 05:41:55 am
Don't fergit deese jools...powder activated nail guns...no home should be without one!  ;D
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Reply #142 on: March 19, 2023, 01:30:21 pm
My son-in-law recently bought a compressed-air heavy duty staple (or is it a nail?) gun to install new Hardy Board siding on his house. He says that he loves it - although it does make it sound like his home has been turned into a shooting range.   ;)
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Reply #143 on: March 19, 2023, 02:11:10 pm
I used an air powered one a few years ago to staple a caravan frame together, and staple the skins on. Worked like a champ. I like the electric staple gun for covering motorbike seats.

Now, where can I buy one of these?....
https://youtu.be/e39nFQrTsXg
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Reply #144 on: March 19, 2023, 02:27:01 pm
i guess it was sort of thoughtless to have a thread where our non-US (including calimassajersey) don't have much opportunity to participate.


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Reply #145 on: March 19, 2023, 02:41:24 pm
My son-in-law recently bought a compressed-air heavy duty staple (or is it a nail?) gun to install new Hardy Board siding on his house. He says that he loves it - although it does make it sound like his home has been turned into a shooting range.   ;)

These things can get addictive,

Mulchers are another one.  You end up pruning all sorts of things that do not need it just to feed the mulcher addiction.


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Reply #146 on: March 19, 2023, 07:30:25 pm
These things can get addictive,

Mulchers are another one.  You end up pruning all sorts of things that do not need it just to feed the mulcher addiction.
Right, like in Fargo  ;D
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Reply #147 on: March 19, 2023, 08:26:03 pm
Right, like in Fargo  ;D
yes, just the thing for chopping up limbs... and torsos... and heads. funny how we remember some things.


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Reply #148 on: March 28, 2023, 04:56:38 pm
Maybe now we can get yearly MMPI testing and CCW training to screen out the crazies. That'd be bad news for Trumps flock of alternate reality camp followers right there.  I'm sure the kids caught up in this psychotic episode had nothing to do with the instigators original grievance.

https://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-us-canada-65087221

BBC: Police search for motive in Nashville school attack
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Reply #149 on: March 28, 2023, 05:23:10 pm
Maybe now we can get yearly MMPI testing and CCW training to screen out the crazies. That'd be bad news for Trumps flock of alternate reality camp followers right there.  I'm sure the kids caught up in this psychotic episode had nothing to do with the instigators original grievance.

https://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-us-canada-65087221

BBC: Police search for motive in Nashville school attack
i used to live in middle tn and know people who knew people, knew as in they were there but now they're dead.. we need to figure out what to do about crazy people. it's really just a hobby for me, but if i thought it would help i'd cut up all of my guns. the 2nd amendment has a lot of wiggle room built in to it, but i'm starting to run out of tolerance and understanding. the way to prevent authoritarian government is the vote, not guns.
« Last Edit: March 28, 2023, 05:28:25 pm by him a layin »


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Reply #150 on: March 28, 2023, 09:08:35 pm
All you can really do is test & train. The MMPI (yearly or bi-annually with gun license renewal) can provide a go/no go guideline, it says that you can discern "right" from "wrong" and the voices in your head aren't all you hear. It needs to be re administered periodically because "things change".  CCW training makes sure you have a grasp of WHEN it's legally reasonable to wave your pistola around. It's a lot less often than some might like.

The concurrent step is to restrict legal gun sales to valid & current gun license holders only. Illegal sales & illegal possession mean that when you get involved in conflict with law enforcement, military rules of engagement prevail. Likely a case can be made for terrorism regarding unlicensed sales to unlicensed users, so Homeland Security, BATF & the FBI get to play. Buying & selling your old used weapons would need to be thru licensed gun dealers only. Then you have a paper trail and can find folks to lean on.

The practice of making a quick buck selling a questionable firearm to a questionable buyer would be over for all but the hard core, and we have Gitmo or deportation for those "terrorists", either foreign or domestic. The other practice of selling mail-order pre-fab unmarked gun bits to other than gun dealers needs to stop. Gun Dealers would need to see a valid license to complete a sale. And the whole cult of "Militaria" needs a hard look over. 12-14 year old boys that want a Black Rifle need to wait until 17 and then the Army or Marine Corps will provide them with training, free ammo, a job & base housing. If a grown man wants to spend time & treasure and collect full-auto weaponry, get a Class 3 license. Maybe also ask yourself just why you are doing this.

There are many ways to get a handle on this plague, but they'd have to be actually implemented & enforced. At this point "crazy" is ascendant and the law-makers don't want to rock the boat, lots of Trumpers vote that likely couldn't get past an MMPI. So here we are, "hardening" schools, churches, malls, etc...spending billions to hopefully keep out a few "chicken eatin' dogs". I say make the gun users pay for the testing, not everyone else around them.
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Reply #151 on: March 28, 2023, 10:12:49 pm
Around here the news reports that a lot of confiscated guns are homemade "ghost" guns made out of some sort of plastic (I think  ??? ) material manufactured using a printer with a design downloaded from the internet.
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Reply #152 on: April 04, 2023, 09:56:13 pm
saw this gun at the convenience store yesterday. i think it uses an interchangeable tube mag.


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Reply #153 on: April 04, 2023, 10:08:09 pm
Around here the news reports that a lot of confiscated guns are homemade "ghost" guns made out of some sort of plastic (I think  ??? ) material manufactured using a printer with a design downloaded from the internet.
yes, that's a thing now, computer-aided 3d printers making polymer guns. i doubt they'd hold up longer than a magazine-full or two, but that's all you want in a throwaway piece anyway. and as long as you don't sell them, the law doesn't know, or care. if you sell them and get caught, it's a whole other game. criminals will be criminals. used to be you needed a machine shop with lathes and mills and presses to make guns, so the only real diff is the ease of use and the price tag. i don't know that they're a problem at this point, but i'm pretty sure that at some point they WILL be. i don't know that there's a way to prevent this.


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Reply #154 on: April 04, 2023, 11:38:33 pm
saw this gun at the convenience store yesterday. i think it uses an interchangeable tube mag.
For greasing Greasers?
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Reply #155 on: April 05, 2023, 01:35:23 am
For greasing Greasers?
LOL
now you mention it i've got a grease gun out in the shed. and a staple gun. maybe pics tomorrow.


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Reply #156 on: April 05, 2023, 02:54:34 am


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Reply #157 on: April 05, 2023, 12:54:31 pm
It's black and scary-looking.  Used by the military for specific applications.  Made almost entirely of plastic.  Uses extended-capacity magazines.  Extremely dangerous in the hands of a child.  Terrorizes classrooms across the nation.  Widely and cheaply available in every city.  We must absolutely eliminate this menace through the magic of legislation!  Surely if it's against the law to use these, then no harm can come from them.  That's how it works, right?



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Reply #158 on: April 05, 2023, 02:01:59 pm
Ok, this one's a bit more serious.

My father passed in 2018, and my brother and I split his gun collection between us.  I got a Savage .410 over/under double barrel that was mine when I was a kid.  I took down a lot of ptarmigan and snowshoe hare with that little shotgun.  Top barrel always carried #4 or #6 shot, and the bottom always carried a slug.  My childhood arsenal also included a Cricket .22 and a S&W .357 that I could only use .38s in, and I could only have it with me when I was out checking my traplines (I grew up in Alaska).

Aside from the Savage, I also got a 30-40 Krag made by Springfield Armory.  This Krag has an interesting history.  A man who was a friend and coworker of my father's (and who would go on to become his supervisor - they were both Civil Service with the Air Force) bought the Krag in the '70s as a moose gun.  He had it sporterized.  My father later purchased it from him and used it for his own hunting trips. 

Later on, I ended up marrying that man's daughter, so he is now my father-in-law.  When my father passed away and I brought the Krag home, I showed it to him.  He was surprised to see his old moose gun in my hands, and is glad that it's staying in the family.  The serial number indicates that it was made around January 1900.  I had it checked out by an armorer who asserts that it's still good for a few thousand more rounds yet.  Barrel is clean, chamber is still tight, and all springs and fittings are still in good working order.  I've shot it a few times, and the action is the smoothest I've ever felt on a bolt gun.

Even though the Krag is an ancient platform, it's still deadly and fast.  It's still by some competitors in Norway's Stang Shooting compeititions.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stang_shooting

An example of shooting the Krag with a speedloader: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eC4_g6N3aLA&t=48s

An example of the Stang competition.  The gentleman in the far left of the first heat in the first round is using a Krag.  Although he was eliminated, I wouldn't want to be downrange against him.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-JQ-H_IKzec

This is another form of Norweigian shooting competition that still allows the Krag, although there aren't any examples of it's use in this clip (I think competition's format is really interesting): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AAubjRNaLOM

And this competition has a tribute section to one of their most famous title holders from the past who exclusively used a Krag, starts at about 11:00: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4cnAwRJc7Sw

I think that allowing the rifle in these types of competitive shooting shows that the platform is outdone by more modern rifles, but it's still a respectable shooter and quite capable in hands that are familiar with it.


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Reply #159 on: April 05, 2023, 04:03:31 pm
Nice links & write up. First I'd heard of Stang shooting, looks like fun. The crowds & shooters were impressive!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stang_shooting
Stangskyting, literally Stang-shooting named after Colonel Georg Stang (1858–1907), is a practical rifle competition popular in Norway where dueling shooters have two periods of 25 seconds to get as many hits as possible on a target at an unknown distance, with an unlimited number of rounds. Competitions in Norway are arranged by Det frivillige Skyttervesen.
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Reply #160 on: April 05, 2023, 04:50:45 pm
For the video where they're transitioning between three targets, here's some information about it.

Nordic field rapid shooting: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordic_field_rapid_shooting


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Reply #161 on: April 05, 2023, 08:51:38 pm
many many krags were sold off and sporterized/cut down after being replaced in service by the '03 and '17, and turn up now and then as deer rifles. krag, 30-06 and .308/762X52 all use the same diameter bullet, though the 30-40 and '06 started out as unjacketed round nose. remington does an annual production run of 30-40, usually low-powered so if you save your brass (and can get large rifle primers) you can get several firings out of them. from the left: .58 cal minie, 45/70, 30-40, 30-06, 762x51, .556


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Reply #162 on: April 05, 2023, 11:09:49 pm
It's black and scary-looking.  Used by the military for specific applications.  Made almost entirely of plastic.  Uses extended-capacity magazines.  Extremely dangerous in the hands of a child.  Terrorizes classrooms across the nation.  Widely and cheaply available in every city.  We must absolutely eliminate this menace through the magic of legislation!  Surely if it's against the law to use these, then no harm can come from them.  That's how it works, right?
I have the Dremel version of that bad boy. Burned myself with it yesterday!
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Reply #163 on: April 06, 2023, 04:16:21 am
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Reply #164 on: April 06, 2023, 12:20:03 pm
Anyone here own or experienced a Micro Roni? A friggin hoot!
« Last Edit: April 06, 2023, 12:33:11 pm by kikdrum18 »
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Reply #165 on: April 06, 2023, 01:12:26 pm
Anyone here own or experienced a Micro Roni? A friggin hoot!
i've shot a few PCCs. meh. i can see the appeal, like shooting a rifle without the recoil. still, meh.


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Reply #166 on: April 15, 2023, 03:05:47 pm
How the AR-15 became 'America's national gun' and loved by the NRA
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-65280361
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Reply #167 on: April 15, 2023, 05:28:42 pm
the "assault weapon" derives from yet another ww2 german innovation, the SturmGewehr44, literally "assault rifle 1944". an improvement over the earlier bolt action rifles and submachine guns, the STG (initially rejected by Hitler) was full-automatic-capable and had a pistol grip and removable box mag like the sub-guns, but fired an "intermediate" rifle cartridge, hence combining the benefits of range and power with ammo capacity and rate of fire.

i currently own 3 semiautomatic rifles which might or might not fit the definitions.

m1 Garand, blue sky Korean reimport, receiver 1943 by Springfield Armory. 8-rd en-bloc clip in internal magazine. 30-06.

m14(s), Polytech semiauto M14 clone. the receiver and barrel are chinese, but many USGI and aftermarket replacement parts. uses a removable box magazine, .308/7.62x51.

ar15, semiauto clone of m16. bushmaster lower, parts set upper. pistol grip, removable box magazine, .223/5.56x45.

of the three, the M1 has actually been to war in the pacific and korea. not usually considered an "assault weapon" because of the limitation of the internal mag, and lack of pistol grip.

the M14(s) can be considered an "assault weapon" due to the removable box magazine, and the USGI m14 is select-fire. some later variants added a pistol grip.

the AR15, (Armalite Rifle) derived from the m16 is semiauto, often called an assault weapon due to its box mag and pistol grip. the US poster child for "assault weapon", along with the russki AK47.

note that none of these fit the formal definition of "assault rifle" because they are semiauto, but are often loosely and arbitrarily defined as "assault weapons". the defining features of an "assault weapon" appear to be the box mag and pistol grip. other options which further complicate the definition are bayonet lugs (m1, m14(s)), flash hiders, and "bump stocks" which simulate full-auto.

confusing? you betcha.
defining features:
 assault rifle(technical definition): full-automatic capable, removable magazine, pistol grip, rifle cartridge.
 Assault weapon(legal definition): semi-auto, removable mag, pistol grip, flash hider, bayonet lug.


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Reply #168 on: April 15, 2023, 08:21:41 pm
Hardware is hardware. Eskimos liked the .22 rimfire because they could carry a lot of ammunition, it was relatively quiet, had low recoil and it was a real step up from a sharp stick. The humble .22 rimfire has probably killed every Alaskan big game animal there is.

The Black Rifle is a .223 which was developed from the .222 which was a Remington varminting cartridge from 1950. There's nothing wrong with the Black Rifle, it's just a tool, it's neither good nor bad. Application makes the difference. Mental attitude of the shooter makes the difference. The Black Rifle has rather a cult following - not from its performance but from the intended application, warfare. Application in battle, seen in countless movies and videos, conflates to "if I possess one I'm a warrior" to many people. It has become a status symbol to many instead of a tool for harvesting game or recreational shooting. That's the source of the problem.

.223 ammo makes for relatively cheap "high power" shooting. There are many, many bolt rifles chambered for .223. It's much harder to blow off 500 - 1000 rounds in an afternoon punching paper with a bolt rifle than a civilian semi-auto AR15 Black Rifle equipped with taped-together back-to-back 30 round mags. Bolt rifles don't offer the option of bump stocks or crank-operated triggers to accelerate a spray of lead downfield.

So, for the sane of us without a Class 3 License, an AR15 can be interesting military memorabilia. But for those looking for some Juju to make them feel better, stronger, more powerful, more in control, the Black Rifle has a powerful allure with its ready accouterments and hi-cap magazines. You too can be Rambo/Seal Team 6/Apocalypse Now for $800 - ++$2000. Or a $600-$1200 M77 Ruger in .223 can provide perfectly satisfactory cheap, accurate varminting or paper punching, just without the Juju factor.

Right now in my rural area I'm listening to just such a cacophony or shots, some teen-brained eejit just blew off $40 worth of ammo in maybe 30 seconds. Apparently someone has a new hand-crank trigger activator. The question is why? What for - it's not mil-spec hardware. What's going on between those ears? Armageddon? Ruby Ridge redux? Worrying about Antifa? Who is he imagining is downrange?
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Reply #169 on: April 15, 2023, 08:35:15 pm
Mental attitude of the shooter makes the difference.
+1


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Reply #170 on: April 16, 2023, 02:34:30 am


Right now in my rural area I'm listening to just such a cacophony or shots, some teen-brained eejit just blew off $40 worth of ammo in maybe 30 seconds. Apparently someone has a new hand-crank trigger activator. The question is why? What for - it's not mil-spec hardware. What's going on between those ears? Armageddon? Ruby Ridge redux? Worrying about Antifa? Who is he imagining is downrange?

What does it matter Why? As long as he's having fun, he can afford it and he's not bothering anyone, it's all good. It's no different to the guy riding the big GS to Starbucks when he could make the same journey on an electric bicycle.

It's not the owning and using that rises [rational] people's hackles. It's all the strutting, boasting and big noting that goes along with owning those kinds of weapons.

Stayin on topic, I just ran 3 extra long sticks of high temp hot melt through the Dremel this morning. Damn that felt good.
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Reply #171 on: April 16, 2023, 02:44:25 am
apropos nothing, last month about 11pm i heard 8 quick shots, 9mm probably, and then after a minute the sirens. 2 local gangers taken to hospital. i live in a nice quiet town of 3,400 people. likely something about drugs. i hear gunfire here about once a month, usually nothing in the police report.


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Reply #172 on: April 16, 2023, 05:29:43 pm
Here's some gun related stuff: Apparently murder-by-gun deaths are about 20,000 per year, gun suicides were about 25,000, pharmaceutical deaths are over 100,000 yearly and auto related deaths are about 40,000 - 50,000. Pharmaceutical lobbyists spend $370,000,000 yearly, the NRA & "gun lobbyists" about $10M - $20M depending on which numbers you look at. The Auto industry spent about $80,000,000. Gun suicides at 25,000 is'n a good statistic, but some life situations aren't really resolvable and in the USA we're supposed to have personal freedom. That would logically include when you decide it's time to pass on. The whole mental health issue is a separate & likely equally contentious discussion

I'm not defending gun deaths, but I am a bit tired of hearing about the "all-powerful NRA". The Lobbyist money spend doesn't really add up. What does add up is the 80,000,000 US gun owners that vote. That's the "all powerful" part, not the maybe 3,000,000 NRA members. They are under 1% of the population. I think that the gun laws need tweaking, licensing is likely a good idea, and making videos of yourself raving about your secret full-auto ghost gun or waving a firearm & expounding about how you have decided to take vengeance should probably get you a visit by BATF.

US pharmaceutical industry lobbying donations yearly:
Pharmaceutical and health product companies poured over a record $372 million into lobbying Congress and federal agencies last year, outspending every other industry and making up over half of all health sector lobbying efforts, OpenSecrets' analysis of recent federal disclosure filings revealed.

https://www.google.com/search?q=US+pharmaceutical+industry+lobbying+donations+yearly&rlz=1CANQDY_enUS1047&oq=US+pharmaceutical+industry+lobbying+donations+yearly&aqs=chrome..69i57j33i160l3.25747j1j15&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

pharmaceutical related deaths yearly:
More than 106,000 persons in the U.S. died from drug-involved overdose in 2021, including illicit drugs and prescription opioids.

https://www.google.com/search?q=pharmaceutical+related+deaths+yearly&rlz=1CANQDY_enUS1047&oq=pharmaceutical+related+deaths+yearly&aqs=chrome..69i57.13470j0j15&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

https://www.opensecrets.org/news/2022/05/gun-rights-groups-set-new-lobbying-spending-record-in-2021/
Gun rights groups spent a record $15.8 million on lobbying in 2021 and $2 million in the first quarter of 2022.

https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2022/02/03/what-the-data-says-about-gun-deaths-in-the-u-s/
What share of U.S. gun deaths are murders and what share are suicides?
Though they tend to get less public attention than gun-related murders, suicides have long accounted for the majority of U.S. gun deaths. In 2020, 54% of all gun-related deaths in the U.S. were suicides (24,292), while 43% were murders (19,384), according to the CDC. The remaining gun deaths that year were unintentional (535), involved law enforcement (611) or had undetermined circumstances (400).


https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-35261394
US gun control: What is the NRA and why is it so powerful?
How big is the NRA?
Estimates of the NRA's membership vary widely. The association claimed that membership rose to nearly to five million in response to the mass shooting at Sandy Hook school in 2012. However, some analysts put the figure at closer to three million.

How influential is the NRA?
In 2022, the NRA received $97m (£78m) from membership dues. That is down by more than 40% from its peak year, 2018.
The organisation blamed the Covid pandemic for the fall.
However, the NRA still has a substantial budget which it uses to try and influence US politicians on gun policy.
In 2021, it spent $4.2m on lobbying, according to non-partisan US research firm OpenSecrets.
OpenSecrets' figures suggest that since 2010, the NRA has directed more than $140m to pro-gun election candidates.
The NRA also has considerable influence via its membership, many of whom will vote for a candidate based solely on their stance on guns.


https://www.forbes.com/advisor/legal/auto-accident/car-accident-deaths/#:~:text=More%20than%2046%2C000%20people%20die,12.4%20deaths%20per%20100%2C000%20inhabitants.

https://www.detroitnews.com/restricted/?return=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.detroitnews.com%2Fstory%2Fbusiness%2Fautos%2F2023%2F02%2F09%2Fwith-money-on-the-line-automakers-amped-up-lobbying%2F69888403007%2F
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Reply #173 on: April 16, 2023, 07:29:46 pm
so arguably more effective to ban pharmaceuticals and cars.
 
as it happens i've been overmedicated with blood pressure meds and am currently pushing back on drs who keep telling me to use statins. the current one, lovistat, has a "rare side effect"(which i exhibit), sneezing and nosebleeds. which last 10-12 hours. no, i'm not taking them. drs bury their mistakes. f that.


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Reply #174 on: April 17, 2023, 02:50:22 am
so arguably more effective to ban pharmaceuticals and cars.
 

Just ban teenagers.


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Reply #175 on: April 17, 2023, 03:00:30 am
.
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Reply #176 on: April 17, 2023, 07:41:41 am
Just ban teenagers.

LOL. That reminds me of another SF short story where abortion was legal until the child reached something like 12yo!
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Reply #177 on: April 18, 2023, 01:58:53 am
apropos nothing, last month about 11pm i heard 8 quick shots, 9mm probably, and then after a minute the sirens. 2 local gangers taken to hospital. i live in a nice quiet town of 3,400 people. likely something about drugs. i hear gunfire here about once a month, usually nothing in the police report.
    - and that's a nice quiet town ?!


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Reply #178 on: April 18, 2023, 03:29:20 am
    - and that's a nice quiet town ?!
yes, it's a little disturbing. i've lived in cities like atlanta and tampa and towns of 300 and never seen anything like this. our local police are doing a good job focusing on a couple of problem areas and i've not heard anything since.

we're 3,400 people here. the next town over is 10X that, and it looks like their gang problem is trying to expand our way.


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Reply #179 on: April 19, 2023, 07:07:48 pm
Ryan Busse has a lot to say on his Daily Show interview.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-65328736
Teenagers charged with murder over shooting in Dadeville, Alabama
Two teenage boys have been charged with murder after the shooting at a 16th birthday party in Alabama that killed four and injured 32 over the weekend.
Ty Reik McCullough, 17, and Travis McCullough, 16, were arrested on Tuesday night, police said.
Authorities said the suspects are each being charged with four counts of reckless murder and that more charges are expected.
A prosecutor said the suspects would be charged as adults.


Gunfight: My Battle Against the Industry that Radicalized America  Ryan Busse
https://www.hachettebookgroup.com/titles/ryan-busse/gunfight/9781541768734/?lens=publicaffairs
A former firearms executive pulls back the curtain on America's multibillion-dollar gun industry, exposing how it fostered extremism and racism, radicalizing the nation and bringing cultural division to a boiling point.
As an avid hunter, outdoorsman, and conservationist–all things that the firearms industry was built on–Ryan Busse chased a childhood dream and built a successful career selling millions of firearms for one of America’s most popular gun companies.
But blinded by the promise of massive profits, the gun industry abandoned its self-imposed decency in favor of hardline conservatism and McCarthyesque internal policing, sowing irreparable division in our politics and society. That drove Busse to do something few other gun executives have done: he's ending his 30-year career in the industry to show us how and why we got here.
Gunfight is an insider’s call-out of a wild, secretive, and critically important industry. It shows us how America's gun industry shifted from prioritizing safety and ethics to one that is addicted to fear, conspiracy, intolerance, and secrecy. It recounts Busse's personal transformation and shows how authoritarianism spreads in the guise of freedom, how voicing one's conscience becomes an act of treason in a culture that demands sameness and loyalty. Gunfight offers a valuable perspective as the nation struggles to choose between armed violence or healing.

 
Ryan Busse - Blowing the Whistle on the Gun Industry
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n-m7NkBEFnY

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Reply #180 on: April 20, 2023, 03:36:32 am
Who even knew "reckless murder" was a thing?

Is that more serious offence than a well planned and prefect executed slaying?
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Reply #181 on: April 20, 2023, 12:55:53 pm
Who even knew "reckless murder" was a thing?

Is that more serious offence than a well planned and prefect executed slaying?
i could go into a lengthy discussion about what premeditation implies about the perp's motivation and value system, but your point is well taken, murder is murder.


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Reply #182 on: April 20, 2023, 02:23:13 pm
All murder is killing, but not all killing is murder.  There is ethical and/or legal killing in various circumstances.  Self-defense or within the context of war, for example.

As with all cases to which I'm not privy to all the facts aside from those the media chooses to present to me, I'll reserve forming an opinion until I hear the verdict of the jury.


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Reply #183 on: April 20, 2023, 02:29:40 pm
Who even knew "reckless murder" was a thing?

Is that more serious offence than a well planned and prefect executed slaying?

In some jurisdictions intentional "first degree" murder attracts potentially heavier penalties including the death penalty as opposed to "lower" degrees of murder. (Alabama does not have the death penalty)

Alabama does NOT distinguish types of Murder in this way.  In Alabama there are three general categories of killing - Murder, Manslaughter and Criminally Negligent Homicide, each category with their own penalties.  The Alabama Code does not distinguish between types of Murder with regards to the possible penalties available to the court.   

Thus a charge of Reckless Murder will attract the exact same potential penalty as any other murder charge, including Intentional Murder, in Alabama.

The Alabama Code states that an accused should be charged with Reckless Murder if, under circumstances manifesting extreme indifference to human life, he or she recklessly engages in conduct which creates a grave risk of death to a person other than himself or herself, and thereby causes the death of another person.

Significantly, the prosecution does NOT have to prove the killing is premeditated, intentional and carried out with 'malice aforethought' .  Simply proving they were aware someone might die and did not care is sufficient to elevate the charge to Murder.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2023, 02:42:45 pm by GlennF »


AzCal Retred

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Reply #184 on: April 21, 2023, 01:12:41 am
The Concealed Carry Permit class clearly tells you when you are "in the right" to shoot. It isn't because you are nervous, or mad, have had a few beers or have a general case of the redass. You or another person had better be in imminent threat of severe injury or death and retreat isn't an option. Flashing your firearm to prove you are a badass to be reckoned with isn't a "thing" either. As far as I'm concerned, the CCW course material should be a minimum requirement of firearm ownership. THEN you can't say you didn't know.

None of the latest crop of "shootist" eejits deserve to be a firearm owner. I'm guessing why testing is so "controversial" is because lots of gun toting folks are reasonably sure they wouldn't pass a psych exam, reasonable weapons educational training or a practical handling test evaluation.

GF - "Simply proving they were aware someone might die and did not care is sufficient to elevate the charge to Murder."
Well put. None of the recent crop of idotic shooters could pass that simple test.
If you are physically or mentally unfit to drive, your license to herd around 5,000 pounds of transportation related glass, steel, aluminum & plastic on public roads gets revoked.
If you are likewise physically or mentally unfit to make sane life & death choices, your license to point & shoot 2 to 12 pounds ofkilling related steel, aluminum & plastic in a populated area should revoked.
None or these recent shooters were part of a "well regulated militia" or had any intention to become so. Any militia worth its salt  would have given these folks a wide berth. Also, as we aren't under domestic attack by foreign forces...and we already have a well armed Army, Navy, Marine Corps, Air Force, Space Force & Coast Guard, the utility of volunteer militias is truly questionable.
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Reply #185 on: April 21, 2023, 03:21:35 am
my objection to the "psych test" concept of limiting access to arms is that most of psychology is not a hard or exact science.

the operative clause, viewed on its own, is very clear. the right of individual people to have(keep) and carry(bear) arms  SHALL NOT (imperative!) be infringed.

i don't have a solution to this problem of how the state (or states), through their military organizations, are to regulate firearm possession without violating the operative clause. it's been done, but historical implementations have been fraught with racist and classist implications.


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Reply #186 on: April 21, 2023, 04:28:58 am
Psych screens, inexact as they are, work. They obviously don't catch everything, but tools like the MMPI can determine if people can discern right from wrong, reality from illusion. A small step in the right direction. These clowns shooting accidental trespassers have a BIG air gap in their thought processes.
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Reply #187 on: April 21, 2023, 11:47:13 am
....but historical implementations have been fraught with racist and classist implications.

     It's good to still hear the word fraught used correctly. I hear it many times a day now misused by the so-called educated as an adjective. Fraught is not a stand-alone adjective & does not mean scary or or worrisome.

   "It was a very fraught meeting" is totally incorrect (worse than nukuler). The meeting to discuss the pronunciation of nuclear was fraught with tension from all sides is more correct.
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Reply #188 on: April 21, 2023, 12:13:16 pm
Question:

What other right or freedom guaranteed protection from government infringement within the Constitution and Bill of Rights is subject to mandatory training, background checks, and/or getting permission (via permitting) from the government before being exercised?  Why is this applied to the Second Amendment, but no others?


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Reply #189 on: April 21, 2023, 01:35:16 pm
Question:

What other right or freedom guaranteed protection from government infringement within the Constitution and Bill of Rights is subject to mandatory training, background checks, and/or getting permission (via permitting) from the government before being exercised?  Why is this applied to the Second Amendment, but no others?
i think it's because
a: violence perpetrated with guns is currently a big and polarizing problem in our society,
and b: the framers clearly advocated for some sort of regulation in the prefatory clause. i've heard it said that "regulated" back in the day simply meant "well-trained", but i'm not sure i buy that.
AND
we've pretty much always seen attempts to regulate and restrict the right to vote so i don't think it's as cut-and-dried as we'd like.

for what it's worth, this need not be a strictly partisan issue. while i'm not much of a liberal (i consider myself a left-leaning centrist, i like fiscal responsibility and a strong defense) i belong to the https://theliberalgunclub.com/ which advocates for root cause mitigation to resolve the unfortunate aspects of gun abuse. i joined so i could participate in firearms-related activities without getting bashed for suggesting that (for example) Medicare For All might not be such a bad idea. ymmv. i try not to be too dogmatic about these things.


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Reply #190 on: April 21, 2023, 01:42:20 pm
     It's good to still hear the word fraught used correctly. I hear it many times a day now misused by the so-called educated as an adjective. Fraught is not a stand-alone adjective & does not mean scary or or worrisome.

   "It was a very fraught meeting" is totally incorrect (worse than nukuler). The meeting to discuss the pronunciation of nuclear was fraught with tension from all sides is more correct.
thanks - i guess. yes, i've been accused of being a grammar-nazi. i checked merriam-webster and oxford, both of which say fraught can be used as either adverb or adjective.


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Reply #191 on: April 21, 2023, 02:29:19 pm
thanks - i guess. yes, i've been accused of being a grammar-nazi. i checked merriam-webster and oxford, both of which say fraught can be used as either adverb or adjective.

     Until a very few short years ago the expression was always "fraught with" followed by tension, hatred, some other situational word. It was hardly ever used so much as it  is now such as "it was a very fraught situation as both factions moved toward each other".

    But it matters not. The language and grammar have collapsed around me & there is naught I can do about it  :)
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Reply #192 on: April 21, 2023, 03:35:52 pm
i think it's because
a: violence perpetrated with guns is currently a big and polarizing problem in our society,
and b: the framers clearly advocated for some sort of regulation in the prefatory clause. i've heard it said that "regulated" back in the day simply meant "well-trained", but i'm not sure i buy that.
AND
we've pretty much always seen attempts to regulate and restrict the right to vote so i don't think it's as cut-and-dried as we'd like.

for what it's worth, this need not be a strictly partisan issue. while i'm not much of a liberal (i consider myself a left-leaning centrist, i like fiscal responsibility and a strong defense) i belong to the https://theliberalgunclub.com/ which advocates for root cause mitigation to resolve the unfortunate aspects of gun abuse. i joined so i could participate in firearms-related activities without getting bashed for suggesting that (for example) Medicare For All might not be such a bad idea. ymmv. i try not to be too dogmatic about these things.

a: I think that some of it is blown out of proportion and/or underreported by the media, depending on things like race / politics / agenda.  Media likes to make us clutch our pearls about mass shooters, but hardly anything is mentioned about all the gang-related deaths in our inner cities - and there are far more deaths of the latter than the former.  Mass shootings are emotional events, kids shooting kids over drugs and territory is just another Tuesday.  What's really ignored is that gun-related deaths pale in comparison to the top causes of death in the US.  Non-firearm related violence (the very commonplace riots by BLM, ANTIFA, or groups of unruly kids destroying businesses or assaulting people on the street) is just pooh-pooh'd by politicians and the media instead of being given serious attention.

b: I was always taught that their use of the word "regulated" was in reference to how the item in question functioned.  For example, a well regulated pocketwatch was one that accurately kept the time.  Similarly, a "well regulated militia" was one that functioned well, and that can't happen without citizens being armed because the militia consisted of all able-bodied men that aren't in the military.  There was no time for the militia to spend months becoming trained and experienced with their weapons, they had to be ready to fight at a minute's notice - hence the origin of the Minutemen.  It's a state of constant and continual preparedness.

I haven't seen any attempts to restrict the right to vote lately, merely to enforce the laws and ensure that only those who have franchise are the ones to exercise it.  If only citizens have the right to vote, how do we ensure that only citizens are voting?  The easy answer is ID requirements.  That's not voter restriction, that's ensuring voter integrity.  I understand the argument to be made for firearms along the lines similar to voting: how do we ensure that only people who are legally allowed to keep and bear firearms are the ones to wield them?  Society's answer: background checks.  However, where in the Constitution is government allowed to restrict who can own firearms, and make it illegal for felons to own them?  That's not a power that the Founders gave to government, the Supreme Court decided that it's an implied power through the ephemeral phrase "government's compelling interest".  From the perspective of the Founders, felons had an equal right to keep and own firearms alongside the lawfully-abiding citizen, because the need of the people to be armed as a bulwark against tyranny supersedes the need to keep felons (who have presumably paid their debt to society) from having them.  To the Founders, any felon who was dangerous enough to not be trusted with a firearm (rapists, murderers, etc.) were put to death in the pursuit of justice, so the question of preventing felons from having firearms was moot.

Besides, as we've clearly seen, laws don't prevent criminals from getting guns.  More laws don't equal criminals having fewer guns.

Agreed - it doesn't need to be a strictly partisan issue.  The vast majority of individuals on both sides want the same thing: safe public spaces.  We just disagree on how to get there.  There's few on the extreme ends of the spectrum that wants guns in the hands of government but not the citizenry.  I think it's ironic that the extreme left is very pro-gun, just that those guns need to be in the hands of government (whom those on the extreme left presume they will be the ones to control, and so won't fear not having a defense against those who wield the guns).

Short excursion into Medicare For All (I know you didn't want to start a discussion on the topic, I just thought I'd share): I think you and I would disagree.  I agree that everybody has the right to free access to medical care, meaning, everybody has the right to access any commodity subject to the laws of supply and demand (food, vehicles, computers, etc.), and medical care is a commodity.  However, I don't believe that people have the right to have that commodity paid for by others if they can't afford it themselves.  If medical care was suddenly enshrined as a right that required it paid for via the government, I'd be forced to ask: what other rights are paid for?  Does the government give me money to buy a gun to protect myself?  Does the governemnt give me money to start a church or newspaper?  I have to exercise my freedom of speech and peditition for redress on my own time and at my own cost.

I also disagree with the implied morality undergirding the Medicare For All concept.  Namely, that society at large has the responsibility to shoulder the consequences for the poor life decisions or unfortunate circumstances of the individual.  If a person chooses to overeat and not exercise, why should everybody else pay for the medical consequences of those decisions?  If an infant is born a cripple, why is society responsible for their surgeries and wheelchair?  At some point, we must acknowledge that 1) people need to be allowed to suffer the consequences of their choices, whether those consequences are beneficial or harmful to them; and 2) life is unfair and sometimes bad things happen to good people, but punishing others (via taxation) who aren't involved because bad luck happens to a few is immoral. 

I'm not against having a basic safety net to help people get back on their feet, but when the safety net gets abused (generational welfare, people using the Emergency Room to get seen for free because they have a sniffle instead of going to a clinic, etc.) it's very harmful to society at large.

Just my 1/50th of a dollar.


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Reply #193 on: April 21, 2023, 04:06:09 pm
Reply #188: What other right or freedom guaranteed protection from government infringement within the Constitution and Bill of Rights is subject to mandatory training, background checks, and/or getting permission (via permitting) from the government before being exercised?  Why is this applied to the Second Amendment, but no others?

Ummmm, libel laws? Are you seriously suggesting that only the secong mendment is the only one affected by legal restrictions? Do the work, don't just default to wing-dragging. "Narrow Categories" applied to the Second might easily include mental unfitness or criminal history. Look at the evening news, it's packed full of crazy. Target practicing on casual tresspassers displays a lack of mental capacity. It's OK to regulate out crazy from dangerous activities. I never wanted my crane operators to show up drunk or on drugs, and we just fired the irrational ones.
https://www.ala.org/advocacy/intfreedom/censorship#:~:text=Only%20that%20expression%20that%20is,true%20threats%2C%20and%20fighting%20words.
By virtue of the Fourteenth Amendment, the First Amendment's constitutional right of free speech and intellectual freedom also applies to state and local governments.  Government agencies and government officials are forbidden from regulating or restricting speech or other expression based on its content or viewpoint. Criticism of the government, political dissatisfaction, and advocacy of unpopular ideas that people may find distasteful or against public policy are nearly always protected by the First Amendment.  Only that expression that is shown to belong to a few narrow categories of speech is not protected by the First Amendment.  The categories of unprotected speech include obscenity, child pornography, defamatory speech, false advertising, true threats, and fighting words.  Deciding what is and is not protected speech is reserved to courts of law.
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AzCal Retred

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Reply #194 on: April 21, 2023, 04:50:34 pm
@ 192: From the perspective of the Founders, felons had an equal right to keep and own firearms alongside the lawfully-abiding citizen

Probably not.

https://scholarship.law.uwyo.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1434&context=wlr
Part III explores the history of laws prohibiting categories of people from
possessing arms. Section A explores disarmament efforts throughout England’s
history. England had a long tradition of disarming dangerous persons, especially
those disloyal to the government. Section B surveys laws from colonial America.
Consistent with English tradition, colonial disarmament efforts focused on
those perceived as posing a dangerous threat, including Loyalists to the British
Crown, slaves, freedmen, and Native Americans. Section C summarizes the
proposals from the ratifying conventions of Massachusetts, New Hampshire,
and Pennsylvania. All three proposals are most reasonably read as allowing only
dangerous persons to be disarmed.


Re: Medicare: Given the current state of medical knowledge, the logical outcome of your avowed perspective is that the poor serve as useful spare parts for the affluent. Those failing to become affluent deserve their fate.
« Last Edit: April 21, 2023, 04:55:26 pm by AzCal Retred »
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Reply #195 on: April 21, 2023, 05:22:38 pm
    The language and grammar have collapsed around me & there is naught I can do about it  :)
we both deplore the lazy sloppiness that has crept into our language (wait, maybe i should ask first, which version of english you speak? american? british? aussie? don't we have a thread on this?), and yet...
language has always been a living, growing thing, constantly evolving. most likely, we'll just have to live with it. or not.


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Reply #196 on: April 21, 2023, 05:48:35 pm
a: I think that 
Just my 1/50th of a dollar.
yes, exactly, pretty much like my couple of pennies worth.
where we disagree is largely a matter of perspective and degree.
as long as we can discourse civilly without calling each other names, it's all good.


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Reply #197 on: April 21, 2023, 07:49:44 pm
más tonterías @ 192: If an infant is born a cripple, why is society responsible for their surgeries and wheelchair? ....life is unfair and sometimes bad things happen to good people, but punishing others (via taxation) who aren't involved because bad luck happens to a few is immoral. ...get seen for free because they have a sniffle instead of going to a clinic, etc.) it's very harmful to society at large.

"Christian Social Responsibility is a faith-based obligation to meet societal needs through the demonstration of love that positively impacts communities and individuals." This appears to be largely supported by scripture, which is one of the many bases of our system of laws. So there's that.

Another aspect is the disturbing & apparently casual acceptance of allowing unnessary suffering by another if it has an economic impact on yourself.

Mostly it comes down to resource availability. In extreme situations babies, the injured and the old are simply abandoned to die. If resources are plentiful, there are more options. The current battle against abortion guarantees more net infant related birth defects to be dealt with, so more suffering. Having a lot of unnessary suffering going on always seems to make societies less stable.

There's always this: eugenics: the study of how to arrange reproduction within a human population to increase the occurrence of heritable characteristics regarded as desirable. Developed largely by Sir Francis Galton in 1883 as a method of improving the human race. A less tainted version, Positive Eugenics, is aimed at encouraging reproduction among the genetically advantaged; for example, the reproduction of the intelligent, the healthy, and the successful. Possible approaches include financial and political stimuli, targeted demographic analyses, in vitro fertilization, egg transplants, and cloning. Take positive action to "lmprove the species". The rub always seems to be in agreeing on the "improvement" specifications. At the end of the day you can remediate suffering when found or prevent it from occuring. We've already seen that "racial purity" doesn't work out so well, but maybe jwe all could agree on reducing life-threatening birth defects. The tech is so there.

As far as emergency room costs, On average. emergency departments generate 20 percent of a hospital's net profits. Judging from the NBC article the core source of ER visit emphasis may be more related to congressional lobbying by well heeled for-profit health care companies. Follow the money when things get stupid.

https://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-care/doctor-fired-er-warns-effect-profit-firms-us-health-care-rcna19975
Today, an estimated 40-plus percent of the country’s hospital emergency departments are overseen by for-profit health care staffing companies owned by private equity firms, academic research, regulatory filings and internal documents show. Two of the largest, according to their websites and news releases, are Envision Healthcare, owned by KKR, and TeamHealth, of the Blackstone Group. EmCare, the health care staffing company that managed Brovont, is part of Envision.

https://www.chcf.org/press-release/california-emergency-departments-generate-hospital-admissions-critical-to-hospital-profitability/#related-links-and-downloads

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Reply #198 on: April 21, 2023, 10:58:02 pm
just wanted to add: i appreciate the libertarian view. rugged individualism is a wonderful thing. but ultimately i don't think it's a particularly realistic understanding of the way the world works. we are in general social animals, and part of the value of society and the State is to keep us off of each other, because some of us are anti-social. again, ymmv.


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Reply #199 on: April 21, 2023, 11:14:51 pm
     Until a very few short years ago the expression was always "fraught with" followed by tension, hatred, some other situational word. It was hardly ever used so much as it  is now such as "it was a very fraught situation as both factions moved toward each other".

    But it matters not. The language and grammar have collapsed around me & there is naught I can do about it  :)
The OED new words lists make for some interesting reading....
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Reply #200 on: April 21, 2023, 11:28:56 pm

Short excursion into Medicare For All (I know you didn't want to start a discussion on the topic, I just thought I'd share): I think you and I would disagree.  I agree that everybody has the right to free access to medical care, meaning, everybody has the right to access any commodity subject to the laws of supply and demand (food, vehicles, computers, etc.), and medical care is a commodity.  However, I don't believe that people have the right to have that commodity paid for by others if they can't afford it themselves.  If medical care was suddenly enshrined as a right that required it paid for via the government, I'd be forced to ask: what other rights are paid for?  Does the government give me money to buy a gun to protect myself?  Does the governemnt give me money to start a church or newspaper?  I have to exercise my freedom of speech and peditition for redress on my own time and at my own cost.


I'm not against having a basic safety net to help people get back on their feet, but when the safety net gets abused (generational welfare, people using the Emergency Room to get seen for free because they have a sniffle instead of going to a clinic, etc.) it's very harmful to society at large.

Just my 1/50th of a dollar.
Medicare is awesome. I've grown up with it and can't quite get my head around the idea of a first world country that will let its people die because they can't afford life saving surgery or medication. That's a world of wrong. There are certainly people here who would love to abolish medicare. Of course they're the well heeled and successful (and good luck to them) with private health cover. The same people who take advantage of free police, fire, ambulance and all the rest with never a thought about how that comes to be available. They're also the same people who earn enough money to take advantage of tax minimisation tactics that are unavailable to lower income earners, sometimes to the effect of paying zero tax. Meanwhile, lower income earners pay the full amount of tax, cover the cost of police etc on the wealthy's behalf and luckily have a medicare safety net to lean on.

IMO, YMMV etc...
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AzCal Retred

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Reply #201 on: April 21, 2023, 11:57:45 pm
To Gizzo's point..."They're also the same people who earn enough money to take advantage of tax minimisation tactics that are unavailable to lower income earners, sometimes to the effect of paying zero tax."
In my old Bullhead area we had lots of Expat-Californicators flush with cash from selling on Mom & Dads $18K 1960's Ranch Home in La Mirada/Cucamonga/etc. for $1.5M, then show up with their biggo boxes of money in broke-ass Bullhead-Riviera Arizona. They then proceeded to buy up a few thousand 1960's retiree mobile home lots near the Colorado river for cheap. The lots were consolidated and very low property tax Kal-Kustom Casa Grandes got built. The whining & baby crying that happened next when they had to pay assessments for sewage, streetlights & sidewalks out of their unearned windfalls was epic. Somehow the 1960 retirees living on shoestring $300/mo pensions in cheap mobile homes with only a Kenmore beer refrigerator, septic tank & swamp cooler for amenities had never worried about those uptown nicities. Or had had the tax base for it. A real "Money for 'nuthin' and chix for free" mentality, right?
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Reply #202 on: April 22, 2023, 12:25:48 am
The OED new words lists make for some interesting reading....
i loathe the word "woke". not because of what people might construe it to mean, but because it's shoddy grammar. "awakened", maybe. "awoke"? somebody was asleep in english class.


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Reply #203 on: April 22, 2023, 02:55:50 am
i loathe the word "woke". not because of what people might construe it to mean, but because it's shoddy grammar. "awakened", maybe. "awoke"? somebody was asleep in english class.
I never understood what it is supposed to mean !


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Reply #204 on: April 22, 2023, 11:40:29 am
I never understood what it is supposed to mean !

In Australia it usually means an unrealistic movie or TV show where instead of righteous hetero white males with a dutiful wife at home, all bare foot and pregnant pumping out babies the way God intended and instructed in the good book, things are instead run by an "ungodly" mixture of everything from single mothers through to people in same sex relationships none of whom even own a pickup truck or gun.



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Reply #205 on: April 22, 2023, 12:23:18 pm
we both deplore the lazy sloppiness that has crept into our language (wait, maybe i should ask first, which version of english you speak? american? british? aussie? don't we have a thread on this?),

    Where I live has been down there in my blurb at the bottom for years. I've lived in RI  since 1959. I grew up and was educated in Cheyenne Wyoming in the '40s & '50s in a school system that had not yet been taken over by unions & political activist organizations, teachers, administrators & school committees. I got the reading bug early & always had my nose in a book. My favorite teachers were in the English, grammar, vocabulary, parsing, etc., business. Also shop (metal, wood & cars) & science. I also had a job with the two local newspapers from age 12 through high school & was excused last period every day to go to work.

   And, yeah, I'm something of a grammar & general English nazi. Things I heard early on in RI drove me nuts such as shock exsorbers, obliverous and ashphalt. Not to mention nukuler.

    What really drives me nuts is the fact that more than half of the frigging government (State AND Federal) who's supposed to be running this experimental circus can't even pronounce the word nuclear correctly.

     Neither can many of today's teachers from kindergarten through university level. The American union controlled public school system is pretty much a total failure & disaster. 

    Sorry to go off topic so I'd better mention the .38 Special that's always handy, but that I hope I never have to use against anyone.   

   
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Reply #206 on: April 22, 2023, 01:19:16 pm
...
    What really drives me nuts is the fact that more than half of the frigging government (State AND Federal) who's supposed to be running this experimental circus can't even pronounce the word nuclear correctly.

     Neither can many of today's teachers from kindergarten through university level. The American union controlled public school system is pretty much a total failure & disaster. 

    Sorry to go off topic so I'd better mention the .38 Special that's always handy, but that I hope I never have to use against anyone.     
I share your pain,,,,
Maybe you should combine your passions and talents with a lapel squirting flower and just let the offenders have it!
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Reply #207 on: April 22, 2023, 02:15:29 pm
   

    What really drives me nuts is the fact that more than half of the frigging government (State AND Federal) who's supposed to be running this experimental circus can't even pronounce the word nuclear correctly.

   
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Aitrus

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Reply #208 on: April 22, 2023, 02:28:07 pm
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"Christian Social Responsibility is a faith-based obligation to meet societal needs through the demonstration of love that positively impacts communities and individuals." This appears to be largely supported by scripture, which is one of the many bases of our system of laws. So there's that.

At the individual or social circle level, I agree completely.  We should absolutely be willing and forthcoming in helping our neighbors and those in our social circles, regardless of our religion.  However, scripture does not imply that charity should be done through theft conducted via government-wielded force (tax-and-spend, and if you don't pay your taxes you are punished).  Compulsory altruism isn't morally copacetic with Christian ideals.  Volunteering isn't volunteering if it's compulsory, and the Christian moral framework - as far as my religious upbringing taught me - is that demonstrating love of one's fellow man through charitable acts must be done voluntarily and willingly, else it is false.  Doing volunteering to look good or to get accolades (aka, for selfish reasons), or done under duress invalidates the whole point.

People have always experienced hardship in life.  The old die, babies get sick, lightning strikes a farmer in his field, etc.  Transferring experienced harm from one part of society to another (taking the value earned by one person's labor and giving to another because they're experiencing hardship) isn't moral.  Theft is still theft, regardless of the motivation behind that theft.  Any immoral or unethical action that can be done by you or I doesn't suddenly become acceptable just because it's authorized by the magic of legislation.  If I were to break into your home and take some money out your wallet to give to the poor, sick, or old - that would be theft.  When the government does it, it's legal plunder, and somehow morally acceptable.

"When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men in a society, over the course of time they create for themselves a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that glorifies it." - Frederick Bastiat

The hours a person works to earn value are his own.  If that value is then taken away, then those hours that person worked become the property of somebody else.  Ergo, during those hours he endured indentured servitude or slavery.  Those hours no longer belong to him because they were forcibly taken away and given to somebody else.  That's why theft is so inherently wrong: it steals part of a person's life and labor away from them.  That's also the founding idea in capitalism: value earned by one person's hours of labor is voluntarily exchanged with another person for the product of their hours of labor.  Free interaction and exchange with another person without government interference, control, or mandate.  When business becomes compulsory from government, the exchange is no longer voluntary, and is thus immoral.

The only morally acceptable purpose for government taxation is to fund those aspects of societal activities that we all require, cannot do ourselves regardless how wealthy we become as individual, an that we all benefit from equally.  Examples: engage in diplomatic activities with other nations, maintain a system of interconnected roads for travel and business purposes, maintain a military, etc.  Those are examples of collective property that government has a duty to operate and maintain on our behalf. 

Medical care is an individual responsibility, a commodity which is limited in supply, and which each person must fund according to his or her needs / capabilities.  Forced participation in universal medicare schemes takes value from one person or group of people (the healthy) and transfers it to another group (the sick).  This doesn't benefit all of society, it benefits a select group at the expense of another group.  Other examples: social security transfers value from the young worker to the elderly; welfare transfers value from the wealthy to the poor.  It's Marxist ideology at it's most basic: from those according to their ability to those according to their need.  And since it's not voluntary, it's immoral.

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There's always this: eugenics: the study of how to arrange reproduction within a human population to increase the occurrence of heritable characteristics regarded as desirable. Developed largely by Sir Francis Galton in 1883 as a method of improving the human race. A less tainted version, Positive Eugenics, is aimed at encouraging reproduction among the genetically advantaged; for example, the reproduction of the intelligent, the healthy, and the successful. Possible approaches include financial and political stimuli, targeted demographic analyses, in vitro fertilization, egg transplants, and cloning. Take positive action to "lmprove the species". The rub always seems to be in agreeing on the "improvement" specifications. At the end of the day you can remediate suffering when found or prevent it from occuring. We've already seen that "racial purity" doesn't work out so well, but maybe jwe all could agree on reducing life-threatening birth defects. The tech is so there.

Interesting perspective.  I don't agree that suffering must always be remediated or prevented.  Suffering is a part of life, and to protect certain individuals or groups from it (or to make reparation to them for perceived harm, whether real or imagined) creates weakness and encourages narcissism and selfishness.  Example: the Nazis used the concept of remediating the suffering of Germany post WWI to justify their actions.

So what are your thoughts on dysgenics?  For clarity of terms - Eugenic: actions taken, or actions avoided, which function to improve the species.  Dysgenic: actions that are performed, or absence of actions performed, the result of which inhibits the improvement of the species.  Eugenics encourages growth and development, dysgenics inhibits growth and development.

Regarding reducing life-threatening birth defects: what would have been the solution to addressing Einstein's Asperger's, or Hawking's paralysis?  Would you have kept Hellen Keller from being born, knowing that she later served as great inspiration despite her disabilities?

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As far as emergency room costs, On average. emergency departments generate 20 percent of a hospital's net profits. Judging from the NBC article the core source of ER visit emphasis may be more related to congressional lobbying by well heeled for-profit health care companies. Follow the money when things get stupid.

True.  My point is that people who use the emergency room for free instead of seeking out appropriate care are hurting the system.  The hospital can't eat the cost, else it would cease to be in business, so the costs of emergency room freeloaders are passed on to the rest of us in the form of higher fees and higher insurance rates.  There's multpile reasons why medical care in America is so expensive, and this is just one not-insignificant variable.


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Reply #209 on: April 22, 2023, 02:50:29 pm
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Medicare is awesome. I've grown up with it and can't quite get my head around the idea of a first world country that will let its people die because they can't afford life saving surgery or medication. That's a world of wrong. There are certainly people here who would love to abolish medicare. Of course they're the well heeled and successful (and good luck to them) with private health cover. The same people who take advantage of free police, fire, ambulance and all the rest with never a thought about how that comes to be available. They're also the same people who earn enough money to take advantage of tax minimisation tactics that are unavailable to lower income earners, sometimes to the effect of paying zero tax. Meanwhile, lower income earners pay the full amount of tax, cover the cost of police etc on the wealthy's behalf and luckily have a medicare safety net to lean on.

IMO, YMMV etc...

I can appreciate that perspective.  However, I can't understand the mindset it takes to be ok with government forcibly taking value from one person and giving it to another simply because the other person is currently worse off than the former...and praising the whole arrangement as morally defensible.  Different worlds, I guess.

Medical is different than police and fire.  Police fire are paid for by taxes, and everyone benefits from those services equally.  In many places in the US, ambulances are private companies that are per-fee services, they're not government funded.  The person receives a bill afterward for their ambulance ride.

Medical is a commodity that is subject to the laws of supply and demand.  There are only so many doctors and nurses, and not everybody benefits from the services equally.  Fire and police are on duty 24/7.  Medical is limited in quantity and quality, so taking my money to provide medical care to somebody else does two things: 1) it reduces the total amount of medical care otherwise available (it reduces available supply, and therefore raises prices), and 2) it reduces the amount of medical care I can afford should I need it.  The other person, through no effort or labor of their own, has now received more care than they could afford on their own, and had the luxury of getting somebody else to pay for it. 

Government subsidization always raises prices and always reduces quantity or quality of the thing subsidized.

Also, 40% of people don't pay US federal income tax.  It's a very small number of the 40% that are the rich, the rest of those are those of low income.  Meaning, the middle class and lower-rung rich who don't escape taxation pay more than their fair share (they shoulder the majority of the tax burden), and the poor pay nothing, but they receive all the benefits.  Calls for the wealthy to "pay their fair share" would - objectively in mathematical terms - result in them end up paying less, and if held to the same standard the poor would end up paying more. 

Interestingly, many of the richest people don't actually have incomes, so there's nothing to tax.  Their "on paper" wealth consists all unrealized increases in value of their assets: the value of their stock holdings, their property values, the value of their businesses, the trusts which they have only partial access to, etc.  They take out personal loans to live on, and repay the loans by liquidating small portions of their assets.  Since liquidating assets to pay debts isn't taxable to a high degree, they appear to live lavish lifestyles without having to pay much in taxes.  Elon Musk's wealth isn't due to income, it's due to rises in stock prices and appreciation of his property values.  That's not income, so it's not taxable.

Example: Take an average income family with a $200,000 house in 2010.  The house is paid off.  The housing market goes up, and the family sells the house in 2023 and moves somewhere else.  The house sells for $420,000.  The family normally earns $110,000 a year (both adults work at $55,000 a year jobs).  In selling the house, the family just earned the equivalent of two years' worth of income.  In this very-realistic scenario, does this mean that they are now rich and deserve to be taxed more?

Another thing to consider: according to the work of Stanley and Danko in "The Millionaire Next Door", 90% of America's millionaires are self-made.  Meaning, the vast majority of the rich weren't born into it, they built it up over time.  Do they deserve to be punished for their hard work and success through paying more taxes?


AzCal Retred

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Reply #210 on: April 22, 2023, 05:17:55 pm
I suggest you take your vast wealth that you don't want to share with anyone undeserving and buy a desert island. That way you get all the benefits of you deserve from the guy that made them.

It's a lot easier to expound on the virtue of others suffering needlessly when you aren't living under a blue UN tarp. Things get pretty easy when you can expect 3 squares a day and have a warm, dry, safe place to sleep.

We live in a society. Why? Because that's how humans survive best. The "friendly association with others" includes sharing resources. The "I got MINE, Jack" mindset doesn't square with that long term.

Society: the community of people living in a particular country or region and having shared customs, laws, and organizations. : mid 16th century (in the sense ‘companionship, friendly association with others’): from French société, from Latin societas, from socius ‘companion’.

The ludicrous references to "punishing self-made millionairs"  by taxing them is more contact magic wishful thinking. Where did the money come from? It came from ordinary folks benefitting from the innovators effort.
Does defending the innovators wealth make you wealthy? NO
Does the innovator live within society? YES
Does/has the innovator benefitted from efforts of those that came berore? YES
Was it possible to accrete this much personal wealth before the advent of money with a simple barter economy? NO
What percentage of modern human history is associated with monetary currency? MAYBE 1%.

It takes about the same amount of money to feed, clothe & shelter a zillionair as it does a welfare case. Amounts above that are gravy. You appear to go after the low income folks and protect the zillionair. This is vassal behavior, the same as shown by pesants outside the castle walls defending the King with wooden pitchforks, shovels & rocks (God save the King!). If they do, hopefully nice partially-eaten scraps from the table rain down from the castle walls. Elon Musks $2.3B compensation at even the 1944 tax rates (when there wasn't particularly a millionair shortage) would still be $115,000,000 yearly. At todays rates it's at least 10x larger. Do you actually know anyone that would feel like they are suffering at $115,000,000 a year? And that wealth would not be possible unless people (i.e. SOCIETY) bought his products. Without the medium of money Elon would just be that guy flint knapping out 100 stone knives from a single flint nodule instead of making one knife per stone., happy to get a deer hide and rabbit carcass without having to play tag with cave bears and smilodons.

The top individual marginal income tax rate tended to increase over time through the early 1960s, with some additional bumps during war years. The top income tax rate reached above 90% from 1944 through 1963, peaking in 1944 when top taxpayers paid an income tax rate of 94% on their taxable income.
https://www.wolterskluwer.com/en/expert-insights/whole-ball-of-tax-historical-income-tax-rates#:~:text=The%20top%20individual%20marginal%20income,94%25%20on%20their%20taxable%20income.


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him a layin

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Reply #211 on: April 22, 2023, 05:51:18 pm
" No man is an Iland, intire of itselfe; every man
is a peece of the Continent, a part of the maine;
if a Clod bee washed away by the Sea, Europe
is the lesse, as well as if a Promontorie were, as
well as if a Manor of thy friends or of thine
owne were; any mans death diminishes me,
because I am involved in Mankinde;
And therefore never send to know for whom
the bell tolls; It tolls for thee."


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Reply #212 on: April 22, 2023, 09:04:52 pm
I suggest you take your vast wealth that you don't want to share with anyone undeserving and buy a desert island. That way you get all the benefits of you deserve from the guy that made them.

There are plenty of rich people who do, on both sides of the aisle.  I can't do what you suggest, I'm stuck here with a government that taxes both you and I overmuch, only to waste a lot of it on things that both you and I disagree with.  Why not pare government down to it's bare Constitutional minimums, that way we both get to keep more of what we worked hard to earn and neither of us believe our money is being wasted? 

Or how about this: there are plenty of places that are happy to tax-and-spend, but only one America with it's foundational ideal of small and limited government.  Why erase the approach which has been proven to be so successful in a few short centuries?  So many people want to immigrate to America because of it's reputation for offering opportunity for all, not because it's becoming just another authoritarian mess.

Quote
It's a lot easier to expound on the virtue of others suffering needlessly when you aren't living under a blue UN tarp. Things get pretty easy when you can expect 3 squares a day and have a warm, dry, safe place to sleep.

Now you're shifting the focus from me and my interaction with my countrymen to me and my interaction with those who are not my countrymen.  Ok, fine.  Here's my reply:
When will the leftists, socialists, and communists start writing personal checks to the Treasury and the UN to pay for the programs that will save the poor and sick, give up their ivory tower academia seats of privilege to others in need, and give up their own houses to the homeless?  They appear to be happy to demand that I give up the things I worked hard to acquire, so why don't they put their money where their mouth is first and show me how it's done?

It's easy to be a socialist / communist in a capitalist society, where the freedoms afford within the system allow the socialist / communist to haughtily spout their beliefs and urge others to do as they themselves believe should be done (but curiously don't do so themselves).  However, it's impossible to be a capitalist in a socialist or communist society.  Just ask Marx - he's a great example of the former.  It's easy to be generous with other people's money, especially if you can get the government to do it for you.  I can't solve the suffering of the world, but compelling me to participate in ineffectual efforts to do so is immoral. 

Quote
We live in a society. Why? Because that's how humans survive best. The "friendly association with others" includes sharing resources. The "I got MINE, Jack" mindset doesn't square with that long term.

Yes, we live in a society.  Nobody how to make a pencil.  However, you seem to think the the "free association with others" not just includes sharing of resources, but requires it, and the only sensible thing to orchestrate is government.  That's where it gets confusing.  The thing that first enabled humans to band together and do more united than we could each do alone wasn't government.  It was reciprocity that enabled us to kill the mastodon.  Meaning, we voluntarily engaged in activities that were:

- Fully informed (truthful and complete)
- Voluntary to all (not compulsory)
- Productive (everybody put forth effort and nobody was a freeloader)
- Free of external costs imposed by others (such as government)
- Free from exerting extra costs on others (the reciprocal parties didn't conspire to harm another)

That forms the basis for all natural law: sovereignty and reciprocity.  The concept that we are all individually sovereign unto ourselves, and that we can only morally engage with each other in a reciprocal manner.  When government - or our fellow man - removes our sovereignty or treats us in a nonreciprocal manner, we feel cheated.

Quote
The ludicrous references to "punishing self-made millionairs"  by taxing them is more contact magic wishful thinking. Where did the money come from? It came from ordinary folks benefitting from the innovators effort.

Correct.  The effort of the individual was voluntarily altruistic and benefited others.  He was an example of ethical selfishness: he wanted to get rich, so he had to make other people's lives better in some way in order to make money.  Taxing him for doing this punishes him for helping others by providing goods or services they want.  As for the super-rich, it takes a lot of risk to be innovative, and the risk-takers only get the payout at the end.  Steve Jobs knew I wanted an iPhone before I knew I wanted one.  He didn't know if people would want them, but he set out to lead the effort to create them anyway, and he helped a lot of people make money / earn a paycheck along the way.  You're arguing that he should be taxed for that effort in order to pay for programs you want.  I don't want him taxed: he's earned his money, and government taxes the sale of the phone already.

Who's the selfish one: the one who works hard and wants to keep more of what he's earned; or the one who doesn't have the skills, drive, and/or ability to compete and wants government to take money from others in order to give him the things he wants provided to him for free or reduced cost?

Quote
Does defending the innovators wealth make you wealthy? NO
Does the innovator live within society? YES
Does/has the innovator benefitted from efforts of those that came berore? YES
Was it possible to accrete this much personal wealth before the advent of money with a simple barter economy? NO
What percentage of modern human history is associated with monetary currency? MAYBE 1%.

Not sure what you're trying to get at here?  History has been full of those that have and those that have not.  It's the way of life.  Only three kinds of people complain about the fact that inequality exists: those that can't compete, those living in a system so successful that they have the luxury of pontificating about it because they aren't busy trying to compete, and those who wish to gain power by asserting that inequality exists and they have the solution.

The richest people in history: Mansa Musa (the slave trader king of the Mali Empire who lived from 1280-1337 and who's wealth can't be calculated), Genghis Khan, Emperor Shenzong of Song (ruled China from 1067-1085), Akbar (ruled the Mughal Empire from 1556-1605), and Augustus Ceasar (63BC - 14AD).  They became rich via the exploitation and rule over others, not because they innovated and created new things that benefited the lives of others.  Don't lump such as these into the same mold as the current self-made millionaire who provided jobs for hundreds along the way. 

Quote
It takes about the same amount of money to feed, clothe & shelter a zillionair as it does a welfare case. Amounts above that are gravy. You appear to go after the low income folks and protect the zillionair. This is vassal behavior, the same as shown by pesants outside the castle walls defending the King with wooden pitchforks, shovels & rocks (God save the King!). If they do, hopefully nice partially-eaten scraps from the table rain down from the castle walls. Elon Musks $2.3B compensation at even the 1944 tax rates (when there wasn't particularly a millionair shortage) would still be $115,000,000 yearly. At todays rates it's at least 10x larger. Do you actually know anyone that would feel like they are suffering at $115,000,000 a year? And that wealth would not be possible unless people (i.e. SOCIETY) bought his products. Without the medium of money Elon would just be that guy flint knapping out 100 stone knives from a single flint nodule instead of making one knife per stone., happy to get a deer hide and rabbit carcass without having to play tag with cave bears and smilodons.

See my question above about who the selfish one really is.  I don't need any of these people's money.  I just want the freedom to earn my way to a comfortable life because I view myself responsible for my own welfare in my own age, not society.

The top individual marginal income tax rate tended to increase over time through the early 1960s, with some additional bumps during war years. The top income tax rate reached above 90% from 1944 through 1963, peaking in 1944 when top taxpayers paid an income tax rate of 94% on their taxable income.
https://www.wolterskluwer.com/en/expert-insights/whole-ball-of-tax-historical-income-tax-rates#:~:text=The%20top%20individual%20marginal%20income,94%25%20on%20their%20taxable%20income.
[/quote]

How many actually paid that top income rate?  Answer: not many, it was more a formality than something that was actually asserted on people.  That's why they dropped it: it was absurd to demand that some people pay 94% of what they earned. 

Also: progressive taxation is the second item on the list of measures to be adopted, according to the Communist Manifesto.  Arguing for it doesn't exactly impress the classic liberal or conservative.


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Reply #213 on: April 22, 2023, 09:47:51 pm
ain't got time for this bullcrap.

see no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil.


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Reply #214 on: April 22, 2023, 10:44:03 pm
These are called taxes. Normal folks pay them to keep society running smoothly. The dead, maimed & dying generally need some assistance. Defense and warfare require funding. Cops & Firemen require funding. Agencies keeping the food, air & water supplies relatively healthy require funding. The CDC that has the overview of the nations health requires funding. 
When will the leftists, socialists, and communists start writing personal checks to the Treasury and the UN to pay for the programs that will save the poor and sick, give up their ivory tower academia seats of privilege to others in need, and give up their own houses to the homeless?  They appear to be happy to demand that I give up the things I worked hard to acquire, so why don't they put their money where their mouth is first and show me how it's done.

People emigrate to the USA to escape being butchered out on their home turf. Our insatiable drug appetite fuels a lot of this migration.
So many people want to immigrate to America because of it's reputation for offering opportunity for all, not because it's becoming just another authoritarian mess.

No I wasn't. I was saying that if you're warm, well fed & comfortable it's easy to downplay the suffering of others.
Now you're shifting the focus from me and my interaction with my countrymen to me and my interaction with those who are not my countrymen.

Seems to be plenty of haughty spouting going on...
It's easy to be a socialist / communist in a capitalist society, where the freedoms afford within the system allow the socialist / communist to haughtily spout their beliefs and urge others to do as they themselves believe should be done (but curiously don't do so themselves).

Someone has convinced themselves that he feels cheated alright. Sovereignty and reciprocity are in short supply in a fully capitalism driven 1930's company town where it only makes "economic sense" to hire enforcers to keep costs down. Your sovereignty becomes upping sticks & leaving, if you can. Reciprocity becomes the enforcers beating you and your family, burning your stuff, and forcing you back to work or killing you as an example. Unrestrained Capitalism is great if you are on the unrestrained supply side.
That forms the basis for all natural law: sovereignty and reciprocity.  The concept that we are all individually sovereign unto ourselves, and that we can only morally engage with each other in a reciprocal manner.  When government - or our fellow man - removes our sovereignty or treats us in a nonreciprocal manner, we feel cheated.

Musk lives within and benefits from society. It is incumbent on him to support the structure that supported him. Taxes on his play monies are irrelevant at that income level. As you pointed out, having that level of resource availability guarantees he'll pay the absolute minimum he can. I-Phones have shipped a lot of cash to China. Judging from their ships & aircraft expansion, the PLA Navy obviously appreciates our efforts. "The effort of the individual was voluntarily altruistic and benefited others." Too funny for words...
Taxing him for doing this punishes him for helping others by providing goods or services they want.  As for the super-rich, it takes a lot of risk to be innovative, and the risk-takers only get the payout at the end.  Steve Jobs knew I wanted an iPhone before I knew I wanted one.  He didn't know if people would want them, but he set out to lead the effort to create them anyway, and he helped a lot of people make money / earn a paycheck along the way.  You're arguing that he should be taxed for that effort in order to pay for programs you want.  I don't want him taxed: he's earned his money, and government taxes the sale of the phone already.

"For I do not mean that others should be eased and you burdened, but that as a matter of fairness your abundance at the present time should supply their need, so that their abundance may supply your need, that there may be fairness." I guess Jesus was in the third category then.
Only three kinds of people complain about the fact that inequality exists: those that can't compete, those living in a system so successful that they have the luxury of pontificating about it because they aren't busy trying to compete, and those who wish to gain power by asserting that inequality exists and they have the solution.

How about this jewel from the CM? Remember YOUR free education? Was THIS a bad idea? America was full of children in factories in the 1800's, and the GOP is working on that again today.10. Free education for all children in public schools. Abolition of children’s factory labour in its present form. Combination of education with industrial
production, &c, &c.
Good ideas are good ideas, regardless of source. Same goes for bad ones. Source "cooties" are irrelevant.

Also: progressive taxation is the second item on the list of measures to be adopted, according to the Communist Manifesto.  Arguing for it doesn't exactly impress the classic liberal or conservative.

In scrolling around I found this jewel and thought I should share the pain.
Why should wealthy people pay more taxes?
On any scale, I am wealthy.
I was born into a supportive family.
I was given a good education in an excellent public system.
I grew up without fear of war, violence, guns, food insecurity, or domestic turmoil.
I was raised to be self sufficient, being modeled basic life skills as well as being taught how to hunt, fish, and garden.
I was born into a country that values me as a person instead of just seeing ‘female’ and dismissing me.
I am a physician, married to another physician. Although this creates a scheduling nightmare most times, (especially for childcare), it is also financially and socially a pretty comfortable place to be.
My country holds that everyone should have equal access to services such as healthcare, education, and a basic income, no matter their background. This is also something I believe.
If I am lucky enough to have benefitted from the cumulative advantage that has culminated in my current situation, then I must also extend any help I can to others, to help them also attain enough security that they can live and raise their children without fear, in a good public education system, being modeled life skills, within a culture that supports them.
Our social system isn’t perfect. There is waste, people slip through the cracks, medications outside the hospital are not covered for everyone, and there are always some people who can work and contribute but just don’t. However, since we collectively hold that fairness and basic services are important, we continue to work on this as a country.
I have no illusions that I got to where I am on my own; it took a lot of support from a lot of people every step of the way, starting even before I was born. I pay taxes proportionate to what I make, which is considerably more than a lot of people might pay. I should do this because I highly value other people, and want to live in a caring society, and because I benefitted from other people doing the same.
It’s also somewhat selfish on my part…if I live in a society where those who can afford to pay more do so as a matter of policy, and where that money goes toward social safety nets, I know that my friends and family are protected by those same nets, and that no one should fall far enough that they can’t be helped back up.
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Reply #215 on: April 23, 2023, 02:34:31 am
@ Reply #213 :  Yipes - a broom handled Mauser! Nice!  :)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mauser_C96
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Reply #216 on: April 23, 2023, 07:54:00 am
I can appreciate that perspective.  However, I can't understand the mindset it takes to be ok with government forcibly taking value from one person and giving it to another simply because the other person is currently worse off than the former...and praising the whole arrangement as morally defensible.  Different worlds, I guess.

Medical is different than police and fire.  Police fire are paid for by taxes, and everyone benefits from those services equally.  In many places in the US, ambulances are private companies that are per-fee services, they're not government funded.  The person receives a bill afterward for their ambulance ride.

Medical is a commodity that is subject to the laws of supply and demand.  There are only so many doctors and nurses, and not everybody benefits from the services equally.  Fire and police are on duty 24/7.  Medical is limited in quantity and quality, so taking my money to provide medical care to somebody else does two things: 1) it reduces the total amount of medical care otherwise available (it reduces available supply, and therefore raises prices), and 2) it reduces the amount of medical care I can afford should I need it.  The other person, through no effort or labor of their own, has now received more care than they could afford on their own, and had the luxury of getting somebody else to pay for it. 

Government subsidization always raises prices and always reduces quantity or quality of the thing subsidized.

Also, 40% of people don't pay US federal income tax.  It's a very small number of the 40% that are the rich, the rest of those are those of low income.  Meaning, the middle class and lower-rung rich who don't escape taxation pay more than their fair share (they shoulder the majority of the tax burden), and the poor pay nothing, but they receive all the benefits.  Calls for the wealthy to "pay their fair share" would - objectively in mathematical terms - result in them end up paying less, and if held to the same standard the poor would end up paying more. 

Interestingly, many of the richest people don't actually have incomes, so there's nothing to tax.  Their "on paper" wealth consists all unrealized increases in value of their assets: the value of their stock holdings, their property values, the value of their businesses, the trusts which they have only partial access to, etc.  They take out personal loans to live on, and repay the loans by liquidating small portions of their assets.  Since liquidating assets to pay debts isn't taxable to a high degree, they appear to live lavish lifestyles without having to pay much in taxes.  Elon Musk's wealth isn't due to income, it's due to rises in stock prices and appreciation of his property values.  That's not income, so it's not taxable.

Example: Take an average income family with a $200,000 house in 2010.  The house is paid off.  The housing market goes up, and the family sells the house in 2023 and moves somewhere else.  The house sells for $420,000.  The family normally earns $110,000 a year (both adults work at $55,000 a year jobs).  In selling the house, the family just earned the equivalent of two years' worth of income.  In this very-realistic scenario, does this mean that they are now rich and deserve to be taxed more?

Another thing to consider: according to the work of Stanley and Danko in "The Millionaire Next Door", 90% of America's millionaires are self-made.  Meaning, the vast majority of the rich weren't born into it, they built it up over time.  Do they deserve to be punished for their hard work and success through paying more taxes?
Wow, tough crowd. Would you be OK with people dying of starvation in the streets or freezing to death in their homes because they were too lazy/stupid/sick/disabled to go to work and earn the money for food and heat? Sounds like the same thing to me.

IRL some people are just unable to get their shit together enough to be able to afford those things. In my imagination, living in a first world country means you can rely on help for the basics: Healthcare, shelter, education and some kind of income support being some of them. Those are kind of basic human needs. I'm fine with someone who can't afford it misses out on private school education, motorbikes, skiing holidays and designer furniture but I wouldn't want to have them die because they couldn't afford some kind of lifesaving medication. That's not cool. it also doesn't seem to occur to people that by providing free healthcare, the government assists people to return to the workforce faster than they would otherwise (or ever) and consequently being able to contribute to the great system again. I guess having them dying is cheaper in the short term but if you look at it my way Medicare is a long term investment. I'm pretty sure the police operate on a similar system with fines: if they took the licence away for first offences, they miss out on milking that cow for some time.

FWIW your last point about real estate: Where I live, you don't pay tax on profit earned from the sale of the family home but you sure as hell do on the sale of any investment property you make money out of. That's fair. I don't see it as "punishment".

In any case, IMO, FWIW, YMMV etc.
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Reply #217 on: April 23, 2023, 08:26:50 am
In the past there was a thing called "noblesse oblige" where if you were fortunate enough to be born into a country and family where you were well off or were lucky enough to achieve that "well off" level of comfortable, you had a social obligation to help the unfortunate who through no fault of their own were struggling.

This has been replaced with "libertarianism" where the argument is the millions of blind, maimed, crippled, mentally ill or just poorly educated are not "my" responsibility as they are in that situation through their own fault , as evidenced by the one or two people in a hundred thousand or so who are able to rise above those issues through a lot of hard work, good luck, contacts  etc and have become millionaires. Therefore logically the other 20 million or so disadvantaged could easily ALSO have been millionaires if they set their mind to it.

The right here does have some odd views. Quite a few years ago a South Australian senator was quoted as saying the big issue with the Australian relatively free tertiary education system was it led to far too many "riff raff" from poor families getting degrees who then took management positions away from individuals from established business families who had the proper background and upbringing.

In Australia recently there has been a lot of controversy over the fact that simply changing your name can double your chances of getting a job interview with some quarters pushing for name-blind staff selection and on the other hand the more right wing employers demanding name changes be banned as it restricts there right to filter out "undesirables" such as Muslims or Asians. (Apparently the US is even worse than we are in this regard)

https://7news.com.au/news/australia/alarming-level-of-name-discrimination-in-job-recruitment-according-to-new-research-c-10381148

https://www.upskilled.edu.au/skillstalk/changing-your-name-when-looking-for-work

https://www.sbs.com.au/news/the-feed/article/how-much-does-a-non-anglo-name-affect-your-job-prospects/0nh7zy2ww

https://newsroom.unsw.edu.au/news/business-law/skin-deep-should-australia-consider-name-blind-r%C3%A9sum%C3%A9s

« Last Edit: April 23, 2023, 08:36:04 am by GlennF »


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Reply #218 on: April 23, 2023, 03:42:09 pm
i call it "privilege by accident of birth". one holds oneself to be superior and deserving because, by luck of the draw, one is born into money or family name or nationality or religion or skin color... they may not even be aware of it. you think you pulled yourself up by your bootstraps? congratulations, someone somewhere taught you the value of integrity and hard work.

the united states of america was founded on a promise, not entirely fulfilled: "we hold these truths to be self-evident - that all men(which i take to include women) are created equal, that they are endowed by their creator with certain inalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness..." anything less is fundamentally unamerican.


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Reply #219 on: April 24, 2023, 12:09:47 am
...  ;D
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Reply #220 on: April 24, 2023, 01:25:31 am


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Reply #221 on: April 25, 2023, 10:33:20 pm
"stupid is as stupid does"   F. Gump
Columbian Cartel mistress/girlfriend/wife or ex-Saddam Hussein concubine?
Could it have been MTG on a junket?  ;D
Not many folks 24-karat gold plate a weapon. Bluing is tougher... :o 8)

US woman arrested in Sydney with golden gun in luggage
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-australia-65389727
A US woman has been arrested in Australia after a 24-carat gold-plated gun was found in her luggage.
The woman, who has not been identified, arrived in Sydney from Los Angeles and did not have a permit for the firearm, the Australian Border Force (ABF) said.
She could face up to 10 years in jail.
Photos released by the ABF showed an airport scan of the woman's luggage, revealing the firearm inside her bag. A second photo showed the handgun after the bag was opened.
Officials said the 28-year-old woman was charged and appeared before the Downing Centre Local Court on Monday, where she received bail.
She could also face the cancellation of her visa and removal from Australia, pending the outcome of the court proceedings.
Airline passengers on domestic flights in the US can travel with firearms in a checked bag when they are unloaded and locked in a hard-sided case. Travellers must also tell airline representatives that they intend to travel with the weapon during check-in.
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Reply #222 on: April 25, 2023, 11:37:40 pm
moron likely figured they wouldn't scan her bag. "but my freedum".


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Reply #223 on: April 26, 2023, 12:42:01 am
moron likely figured they wouldn't scan her bag. "but my freedum".

Or just assumed the rest of the planet has the same rules as the US.

Happens a lot and not just with firearms. Surprising how many people fly into Australia with proscribed foodstuff, medication that is legal in the US but needs a prescription here or in some cases animals and pets that need to spend time in quarantine and seem genuinely unaware they are going to hit issues with customs.

The interesting question though is how she got ON the aircraft at the US end with an unsecured firearm in her luggage. Seems someone stuffed up at the departure end. She should not have been allowed on an aircraft at the US end with an undeclared unsecured firearm in unsecured luggage.

TSA regs:
Quote
You may transport unloaded firearms in a locked hard-sided container as checked baggage only. Declare the firearm and/or ammunition to the airline when checking your bag at the ticket counter. The container must completely secure the firearm from being accessed. Locked cases that can be easily opened are not permitted. Be aware that the container the firearm was in when purchased may not adequately secure the firearm when it is transported in checked baggage.

Contact the TSA Contact Center with questions you have regarding TSA firearm regulations and for clarification on what you may or may not transport in your carry-on or checked baggage.

Firearms

- When traveling, comply with the laws concerning possession of firearms as they vary by local, state and international governments.
If you are traveling internationally with a firearm in checked baggage, please check the U.S. Customs and Border Protection website for information and requirements prior to travel.

- Declare each firearm each time you present it for transport as checked baggage. Ask your airline about limitations or fees that may apply.

- Firearms must be unloaded and locked in a hard-sided container and transported as checked baggage only. As defined by 49 CFR 1540.5 a loaded firearm has a live round of ammunition, or any component thereof, in the chamber or cylinder or in a magazine inserted in the firearm. For civil enforcement purposes, TSA also considers a firearm to be loaded when both the firearm and ammunition are accessible to the passenger. For example, if an individual has a firearm in accessible baggage and ammunition in his/her pocket, or any combination where the individual has access to both, the firearm is considered "loaded" for purposes of assessing a civil penalty. Only the passenger should retain the key or combination to the lock unless TSA personnel request the key to open the firearm container to ensure compliance with TSA regulations. You may use any brand or type of lock to secure your firearm case, including TSA-recognized locks.

- Bringing  an unloaded firearm with accessible ammunition to the security checkpoint carries the same civil penalty/fine as bringing a loaded firearm to the checkpoint. You may find information on civil penalties at the Civil Enforcement page.

- Firearm parts, including magazines, clips, bolts and firing pins, are prohibited in carry-on baggage, but may be transported in checked baggage.

- Replica firearms, including firearm replicas that are toys, may be transported in checked baggage only.

- Rifle scopes are permitted in carry-on and checked baggage.


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Reply #224 on: April 26, 2023, 12:56:15 am
"The interesting question though is how she got ON the aircraft at the US end with an unsecured firearm in her luggage."   Yes, it is... ;D  "It didn't happen on MY watch, Chief, I was asleep..."

It will be interesting to see if this is followed up on our end. I'm guessing not, as NOBODY is really interested in opening up THAT can of TSA worms. Appearance = Reality, right?  ::)
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Reply #225 on: April 26, 2023, 02:54:59 pm
a little point of interest for our british friends.
as europe geared up for ww1, the brits were looking to replace their aging SMLEs.
so in 1913 a new rifle was proposed (Pattern 13), then accepted for service in 1914 as the P14 rifle, chambered in the rimmed .303 cartridge. but then war broke out, and rather than retool all the factories they contracted with american gunmakers to make P14s while they kept churning out SMLEs.
 
by 1917 the contracts were fulfilled but the US was about to enter the war, and rather than idle the US factories, we kept making them, now chambered in .30-06, to serve alongside our standard service rifle, the M1903. by the end of the war, 3/4s of US rifles in europe were '17s and Alvin York carried one, though he preferred the lighter, slimmer '03.

after the war, one of the two rifles had to go, so in an effort to help germany recover we dropped the '17 and resumed production and royalty payments for the Mauser-designed M1903. but the M917 served on as foreign aid through ww2. this one was made by winchester in nov. 1918 just as the war ended and led a pampered life of ceremonies and parades.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2023, 03:03:33 pm by him a layin »


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Reply #226 on: April 26, 2023, 04:26:38 pm
That has to be Nickle plating, but it looks like stainless - Nice condition!
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Reply #227 on: April 26, 2023, 06:44:58 pm
it's a good shooter, too!



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Reply #228 on: April 28, 2023, 06:02:22 pm
NOW can we talk about licensing firearm owners and having regular requals? This is nuts.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/illinois-man-59-fatally-shot-neighbor-using-leaf-blower-yard-officials-rcna81945
An Illinois man using a leaf blower in his own yard was fatally shot allegedly by his 79-year-old neighbor during an argument, marking the latest incident in which people are gunned down while going about their everyday lives.
William Martys, 59, was using a leaf blower in his yard at his Antioch home on April 12 when he was approached by his next-door neighbor, Ettore Lacchei, 79, and the two argued, the Lake County Sheriff’s Office said.
During the altercation, “Lacchei shot Martys in the head,” the sheriff's office said in a news release.
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Reply #229 on: April 28, 2023, 06:08:26 pm
If ANYONE needed a militia, these guys are it. They really don't have a police force or army. 30-30 lever rifles would be more than enough or any bolt action deer rifles.

https://www.voanews.com/a/neighborhood-fights-haiti-gangs-after-vigilante-killings/7066441.html
"There's nowhere to run," said Samuel, 25, who declined to give his last name out of fear of being killed. "We have to stand and fight back. If there has to be a war, I will be part of it, because authorities are not taking responsibility and are letting everyone die under their eyes."

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Reply #230 on: May 04, 2023, 08:42:42 pm
went to my usual DNR range today where i shot meh, poly hitting 4" hi and left at 100yds. but the real fun was the 2 magats discussing how the upcoming civil war would be easy since the left is unarmed (except for those pesky antifa peeps). meanwhile they were "spray and pray"ing with their 7.62x39 ARs... at 25 yds. so rather than try to reason with them, i gave them my last LGC sticker. guess i need to order more now.


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Reply #231 on: May 05, 2023, 12:16:55 am
went to my usual DNR range today where i shot meh, poly hitting 4" hi and left at 100yds. but the real fun was the 2 magats discussing how the upcoming civil war would be easy since the left is unarmed (except for those pesky antifa peeps). meanwhile they were "spray and pray"ing with their 7.62x39 ARs... at 25 yds. so rather than try to reason with them, i gave them my last LGC sticker. guess i need to order more now.

As the US discovered in Vietnam, having a big truck and a big gun does not help when a sweet looking 14 year old girl smiles at you and then drops a grenade through the window.

Civil wars are messy and cr@p for all concerned and should be avoided at all costs, it is really weird that people in the US are wishing for another one.


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Reply #232 on: May 05, 2023, 01:40:00 am
it is really weird that people in the US are wishing for another one.
true that. 600,000+ dead americans last time. but then i still occasionally see a confederate battle flag (no, not the "stars and bars") flying.


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Reply #233 on: May 08, 2023, 03:07:31 pm
The apparent conclusion to be drawn is that "far right ideology" is part & parcel of the rising mental health crisis...so just shut down the superspreaders Fox, OAN & NewsMax. Go Texas Governor Gregg Abbott for publicly recognizing this dangerous trend! Impounding of large pickup trucks with Confederate flags & rifle racks will begin later today, no doubt. Right after closing the superspreader news channels and collecting up all the assault rifles in Texas. Meanwhile, Amazon delivers, so avoid public spaces. Xi and Vladimir must be ecstatic seeing their cyber-driven 5th Columnist internal-insurrection plans working so well on the West, a very useful tool when pursuing your own conquest strategy.

Texas mall shooting: Officials probe gunman's possible far-right links
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-65521656
The attacker, who was shot dead at the scene by a police officer, has been named as Mauricio Garcia, aged 33. Investigators are reviewing social media to look into his ideology, the BBC's US partner CBS news reports.
During the attack he wore a clothing patch with the letters RWDS which stands for "Right Wing Death Squad". This is a phrase popular among right-wing extremists and white supremacy groups.
One line of enquiry is whether he was motivated by these ideals and whether he had links to like-minded people, a law enforcement source told CBS. The gunman used an AR-15 style rifle and wore combat gear during the shooting, with multiple rounds of ammunition found on him.
Witnesses described scenes of panic and horror when the gunman got out of his car in a mall parking lot and began firing on shoppers.

The Republican governor of Texas, Gregg Abbott, told Fox News Sunday his aim was to target the possession of weapons by criminals and deal with a rising mental health crisis, rather than consider wider bans. Garcia was reportedly working as a security guard at the time of the shooting and did not have a serious criminal record.

Footage seemed to show the suspect stepping out of his vehicle in the mall car park, and opening fire on people walking nearby without warning.
Speaking to CBS, Steven Spainhouer described how he rushed to the scene after getting a call from his son who reported shooting. He spoke of "unfathomable carnage". He said at least three victims could not be saved even after he applied CPR. "The first girl I walked up to was crouched down covering her head in the bushes," he recalled. "So I felt for a pulse, pulled her head to the side, and she had no face."
He helped a boy who was under his mother's dead body. "When I rolled the mother over, he came out. I asked him if he was OK and he said, 'My mom is hurt, my mom is hurt'. So, rather than traumatise him any more, I pulled him around the corner and sat him down." The boy was "covered from head to toe" in blood, Mr Spainhouer said.
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Reply #234 on: May 08, 2023, 05:52:50 pm
no one told him that he's not exactly white, so while he's not at the top of the rightwing target list he's still very definitely on it. idiot.

i've been waiting for the occasion to post this pic, and texas provides.


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Reply #235 on: May 09, 2023, 01:44:43 am
No surprises here... https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/texas-mall-shooter-shared-extremist-beliefs-jews-women-apparent-social-rcna83336
A social media page appearing to belong to a gunman who killed eight people at a Dallas-area outlet mall had shared extremist beliefs with rants against Jews, women and racial minorities posted since September, as well as posts about struggling with mental health.
Mauricio Garcia, 33, maintained a profile on the Russian social networking platform OK.ru, including posts referring to extremist online forums, such as 4chan, and content from white nationalists, including Nick Fuentes, an antisemitic white nationalist provocateur.
In another post, he made disturbing comments about what makes a mass shooting "important" and praised a person who opened fire at a private Christian school in Nashville, Tennessee, this year, killing six people, including three children.
The shooter also posted a series of links to other sites, including a YouTube account that featured a video published the day of the shooting. In it he removed a "Scream" mask and said, "Not quite what you were expecting, huh?"
He also posted photos of a flak vest emblazoned with patches, one of them with the initialism for "Right Wing Death Squad," a popular meme among far-right extremist groups. Another post included a series of shirtless pictures with visible white power tattoos, including SS lightning bolts and a swastika.
The shooter was armed with multiple weapons, including an AR-15-style rifle and a handgun, authorities said.
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Reply #236 on: May 09, 2023, 02:13:37 am
Finally some sunlight?

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/texas-mass-shootings-assault-weapons-raise-the-age-state-legislature/
Texas state lawmakers on Monday moved forward with a gun control bill in a surprise move that came just hours after families of mass shooting victims had begged them to take action in the wake of the rampage Saturday at a mall in Allen that left eight dead.
State House lawmakers on Monday voted a bill out of committee that would raise the legal age to buy an assault-style weapon to 21, as well as prohibit firearm sales to those who are intoxicated or who have a protective order against them. Two Republicans joined all the Democrats on the committee to support the bill in an 8-5 vote. Families from Uvalde, who have fiercely advocated for the bill, burst into applause after the vote.
Monday marked the last day the measure could be advanced out of the committee for a floor vote before the legislative session ends on May 29.
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Reply #237 on: May 09, 2023, 03:32:40 am
raise the legal age to buy an assault-style weapon
it's a start, which is of course problematic. this shooter was well over 21, so no effect. so they'll have to try again, and again, and again, all to no avail, except to justify the fears of the already paranoid. there are literally millions of these rifles out there already(heck i've got one i'm looking to re-home). what's called for here is root cause mitigation, including but not restricted to better health care, especially mental health, but what i'm really advocating for here is a more equitable society and a less worshipful attitude about violence. but this is the good 'ol USA and good 'ol right-leaning texas, so i'd be wasting my breath. 
i think the vast majority of these is what we call "suicide by cop" and they want to go out with a bang, and i have no idea how to address that except to say that it's clearly a mental health issue.


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Reply #238 on: May 09, 2023, 04:46:56 pm
 +1!! "and a less worshipful attitude about violence."

Maybe a service somewhat along these lines for the SbC crowd would suffice, perhaps with webcams...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Repo_Men#:~:text=An%20American%2DCanadian%20production%2C%20it,released%20on%20March%2019%2C%202010.
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Reply #239 on: May 18, 2023, 06:16:46 am
Serbians hand in guns and question culture of violence after two shootings

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-65597622

Shock and horror might have been Serbians' first reaction to two mass shootings in as many days earlier this month. But outrage swiftly followed.
Tens of thousands of people attended two protests in the capital, Belgrade, with smaller rallies in other cities around the country.
They marched under the banner "Serbia Against Violence" and called for an end to what they viewed as a culture of violence which led to the shootings at a school in Belgrade and, the next day, around Mladenovac, south of Serbia's capital.
More protests will follow - and the government seems rattled. Senior figures have been talking down the numbers involved, as well as making plans for a "solidarity" rally of their own.
But there is one issue which both protesters and authorities seem to agree on: gun control.
"There is no pro-gun lobby in Serbia," says Bojan Elek, the deputy director of the Belgrade Centre for Security Policy and an expert on firearms issues in the country.
"There is a national association of gun owners - but nothing close to what they're doing in the US with the National Rifle Association (NRA)."
In the wake of the shootings, President Aleksandar Vucic swiftly announced what he called a "general disarmament" of the country. He declared a month-long amnesty for illegally-held weapons, with a warning of harsh consequences for anyone who held on to guns without a permit.
The president also has legally-held weapons in his sights. Mr Vucic has announced a moratorium on new weapons permits and a review of current gun licences.
All this would appear to be quite an undertaking in a country where the number of guns in circulation is, apparently, alarmingly high. In 2018, the Switzerland-based Small Arms Survey ranked Serbia third in the world for the number of weapons in private hands, with 39 guns per 100 people.
The public and political reaction to such a disarmament programme in the country which tops the list, the United States, can be imagined. In Serbia, says Bojan Elek, it has been a different matter.
The amnesty has been mostly positively accepted, he says, and by the second day of the amnesty, more guns and ammunition had been handed over than in the previous three amnesties put together.
"The number of illegal guns is definitely being reduced - even some weapons from World War II have been handed in. But we haven't got a credible figure of how many there were to start with, so it's hard to say how many are remaining."
Given the government's swift action to reduce the number of weapons in circulation and the lack of widespread objections to their proposals, the question is: why are tens of thousands of people still motivated to hit the streets in protest?
Political analyst Bosko Jaksic agrees that the weapons amnesty is not the bone of contention.
"The only thing which Vucic organised promptly was gun control. This is organised well and it works - so why should the demonstrators ask for such a measure when it already exists?"
Instead, the protesters are looking beyond the weapons and towards what they view as the root causes of the shootings.
The specifics include demands for the resignation of two senior government officials and the revocation of the licences of two pro-government broadcasters. But overall, protesters say they are most concerned about a culture of both rhetorical and physical violence which they believe has grown since the Serbian Progressive Party took power in 2012.
"We are surrounded by violence - in the public domain, political communication, parliament and television shows," says Belgrade resident, Aleks. "The culture of civilised conversation is completely lost."
Another protester, Milos, feels much the same way.
"The tragic events were a culmination of the violent methods - not necessarily physical - that they're practising in the media," he says.
A trifecta of Pre-Unit Bullets: a Red Deluxe 500, a Green Standard 500, and a Black ES 350.