[Lee]

Hi All,

Troubleshooting a 2007 RE 500 Bullet Electric Start I have just recommissioned and serviced.
Firstly the bike starts and runs fine however intermittently the Starter relay would not activate, when this scenario happens the Ammeter reads negative "before pressing start button", with no buzz or click at Solenoid/Relay. Before you say bad relay/solenoid below is the troubleshooting I have done eliminating the Relay/Solenoid.

New fully charged battery, 12.8V not running, I have followed the Start Button circuit through handlebar Kill Switch/Starter Button/headlight connectors/coil/Points etc and have confirmed this issue only happens when the points are closed, I can unplug Relay/Solenoid and even before pressing the start button I see low voltage of 10.1V. The power supply to the Starter solenoid "Red White Wire" and "Blue White Wire" only receive 10v and wont activate starter Relay/Solenoid....... However if I Manually open the points or just kick the engine around to where the points are open I will see the ammeter go from negative to zero and measure 12.8V at the Relay/Solenoid...... I can then press start button and Electric start then activates and bike starts no problems.

Seems the power circuit for the starter relay shares with the Coil/Points on this bike, is that normal? is it just a RE Quirk or is something wrong here, loom all looks factory. I'm not 100% sure but I would think its normal for Coil/Points circuit to dip voltage prior to sparking like what I see here, so why is the Starter Circuit shared with this?

PS When I see the 10V at Coil and Solenoid/Relay I can measure 12+ direct at the battery so it is just this circuit with the voltage dip.

Cheers

[Raymond]

Well, the easy answer - sorry - is don't use the starter. When I joined this forum, that was the first thing I was told.

The electric starter was an afterthought grafted onto the Bullet and can give trouble especially if the engine kicks back during starting, when the starter clutch is liable to disintegrate. So my policy and I think many others is to use the kick start. I have gone so far as to remove the starter and associated wiring. With a decompressor making it simple to get the engine in the right position, the kick start is very easy.

[tooseevee]

Hi All,

Troubleshooting a 2007 RE 500 Bullet Electric Start I have just recommissioned and serviced.
Firstly the bike starts and runs fine however intermittently the Starter relay would not activate, when this scenario happens the Ammeter reads negative "before pressing start button", with no buzz or click at Solenoid/Relay. Before you say bad relay/solenoid below is the troubleshooting I have done eliminating the Relay/Solenoid.

New fully charged battery, 12.8V not running, I have followed the Start Button circuit through handlebar Kill Switch/Starter Button/headlight connectors/coil/Points etc and have confirmed this issue only happens when the points are closed, I can unplug Relay/Solenoid and even before pressing the start button I see low voltage of 10.1V. The power supply to the Starter solenoid "Red White Wire" and "Blue White Wire" only receive 10v and wont activate starter Relay/Solenoid....... However if I Manually open the points or just kick the engine around to where the points are open I will see the ammeter go from negative to zero and measure 12.8V at the Relay/Solenoid...... I can then press start button and Electric start then activates and bike starts no problems.

Seems the power circuit for the starter relay shares with the Coil/Points on this bike, is that normal? is it just a RE Quirk or is something wrong here, loom all looks factory. I'm not 100% sure but I would think its normal for Coil/Points circuit to dip voltage prior to sparking like what I see here, so why is the Starter Circuit shared with this?

PS When I see the 10V at Coil and Solenoid/Relay I can measure 12+ direct at the battery so it is just this circuit with the voltage dip.

Cheers

            I (and others) wholeheartedly agree with what Raymond says.

            After you get your electrical problem solved (I am no expert troubleshooter on electrickery) to your satisfaction, try to avoid the electric start as much as possible.

            Every electric start (especially on a low battery) will bring you closer to the sprag clutch exploding. Then your only option is removing the whole electric start OR replacing the whole sprag clutch.

           Hitchcocks has everything necessary & it also will give you the opportunity to clean up everything inside the primary cover that might need attention & refill with nice new ATF.   

[stinkwheel]

Couple of things.

1) I'm not sure what you mean by a shared circuit. All the electrics on the bike take their power from the same battery and that's all you get until the engine is turning.

2) I would expect a normal relay to still trigger at 10V, or at least click momentarily then click off again as the voltage drops. Solenoid might take a bit more oomph. So is there something wrong there?

3) Dropping to 10V on a brand new battery when the coil contacts seems a fair drop. I wonder if all is well with the coil and condenser? There must be an enormous draw when the points are closed to be taking it from able to throw a 500cc single over on an electric start to not able to power up a relay. If you have an actual scaled ammeter, you could check what the draw is in series with the battery when the points close. Should be around 4A. Remember not to touch the electric start with your ammeter connected and remember to use the 10A socket, not a milliamp setting.

[Lee]

1) I guess what I'm highlighting is at the same time I measure 10v on the "Red white" "Blue white" wires I can measure 12+v direct at the Batt+ terminal using the same earth indicating there is a specific drop just on the two wires and not at the battery + terminal while points closed.

2) I agree, and I just watched a YouTube video where someone activated the relay with 10v on a later model fuel injected RE, so maybe I do have a sus relay and it's normal that these wires only throw out 10v sometimes and my relay should be activating anywhere above 9.6v... be nice to know an official spec of this relay.

3) Mmmm I have tested this coil, primary and secondary in spec, tested with a second coil and tested with points wire disconnected from points/condenser and going straight to earth , shows exactly same voltage in all scenarios....... From my limited understanding of how a coil fires it does suck alot of power during points closed to fire when open. Points aren't sparking like a condenser issue either but food for thought.

Also other than this issue the bike starts and runs no problems

Cheers

Couple of things.

1) I'm not sure what you mean by a shared circuit. All the electrics on the bike take their power from the same battery and that's all you get until the engine is turning.

2) I would expect a normal relay to still trigger at 10V, or at least click momentarily then click off again as the voltage drops. Solenoid might take a bit more oomph. So is there something wrong there?

3) Dropping to 10V on a brand new battery when the coil contacts seems a fair drop. I wonder if all is well with the coil and condenser? There must be an enormous draw when the points are closed to be taking it from able to throw a 500cc single over on an electric start to not able to power up a relay. If you have an actual scaled ammeter, you could check what the draw is in series with the battery when the points close. Should be around 4A. Remember not to touch the electric start with your ammeter connected and remember to use the 10A socket, not a milliamp setting.

[Adrian II]

I would expect some degradation of an Indian Bullet electrical system after 15 years.

Of course your don't HAVE to be reliant on the points ignition. If you wanted to go old-school on this, you could fit the Lucas SR1 magneto that the late 50's British built Bullets used and have independent sparks. Plenty of them around, they bolt straight onto the back of the crankcase where the points stuff otherwise lives. New auto-advance units for these are available, just make sure the mag is set up to spin anti-clockwise at the drive end. I have seen a number of Indian built Bullets where these have been retro-fitted.

A.

[Lorenzo]

Lee -
Before lashing out goodness-knows-how-much on things the bike probably doesn't need, start off with the simple things first. Sounds to me that your problem could be a less than perfect earth somewhere.
When my 500ES began to misbehave (but not your problem) I decided to check out all wiring connections.
One of the first items under scrutiny was the main battery earth lead ; on my bike the actual connection to earth was between the back of the battery carrier and the frame - not the easiest place to check without some dismantling. I removed the earth lead - and the crimp eyelet simply fell off the cable !!
I believe these have a reputation for being very poorly made.
I had a new heavier gauge cable made up by my local autoelectricians.
In 9.1/2 years of ownership I never had a problem with the electric start.

[AzCal Retred]

I like the electric start feature. It's handy if an engine stalls in traffic and for quick roadside stops. You can leave the bike in gear and it doesn't roll away when on a slope. The "hump" doesn't bother me, it's not an antique anyway. I bit of extra weight is a non-issue with these pre-unit construction machines.

Lorenzo is on track. Circuit resistance is the issue. The solenoid coil earths/(-) grounds thru the neutral & clutch switches, both of which are problematic. Consult the wiring diagram. My solution was to earth the solenoid directly, i.e. at the solenoid attachment bolt. When the (+) from the start push button arrives, it makes up the solenoid contacts with a satisfying clack. EVERY TIME you apply the start button the starter will operate. Another fly in the ointment is the "non-running permissive relay" ahead of the solenoid (+). It senses coil AC frequency and is "conductive" only when the engine isn't running. As the sprag clutch only mechanically functions when the crankshaft is slower than the starter motor, there's no practical issue with operating the starter whilst the engine is already running - it's too slow to catch up.

ALL of my switches in this circuit had very high internal resistances, and the permissive relay was the same. You'd lose 3-5V across them, dropping the voltage across the start solenoid coil to unusable levels. You'll need to check start PB resistance as well. Grit & grunge had raised my start PBs internal resistance, some spray contact cleaner strategically directed sorted that out.

Simplifying the circuit wiring drastically improves operability. The only caveat is that you need to be in neutral or have the clutch pulled in when you start the machine. That's a reflex that virtually every rider over 40 has long ago developed.

[AzCal Retred]

" Seems the power circuit for the starter relay shares with the Coil/Points on this bike, is that normal? "

Yes. Coil is nominally 3 ohms, so 12V/3R = 4 Amps, likely less.

Voltage drop at the battery is related to battery internal resistance, so the battery may be heading out the door. Try it with a charger attached to "make up the difference".

Circuit total voltage drop = the sum of all voltage drops.
Each device & connection will have some voltage drop from resistance. Switches & connectors are supposed to be almost zero ohms. Battery ground connection can be a source of voltage drop if not clean, lightly greased & tight. Make sure the terminals connections are mechanically clean & lightly greased also.

Dropping 2v (2/12, about 15%) across what should be zero ohm connections & switches means they need attention. DC coils can but don't always operate well on low voltage. Simplifying the circuit as mentioned above reduced opportunities for voltage losses.

[nettshubby]

I had, (and still do sometimes), same thing. I found that a voltage drop shows when pressing button which is power going to solenoid, and if only a light tap on solenoid it operates.
I got a new identical solenoid and it does same thing!
I will buy a Japanese one and try it!

[tooseevee]

  Just a little aside on the potentially explosive ES from way back in a dark corner of the cobwebby stacks:

  Many years ago when I took the whole wiring harness on the '08 apart from stem to stern (what a mess), I added a good Bosch relay between the starter button & the main relay (also new). Sooner or later the contact points in the starter button will arc themselves up. The little relay takes all the arcing out of the starter button contacts + I get a good, positive contact feel from the button; no "Will it? Won't it?" 

    Put one in the horns' button circuit, too, although I don't recall EVer blowing them outside of the garage. I cut one of them out later; back to mono-horn