[Fahnone]

Hey mates, here we go again.

After all the work (with your help of course!) the Bullet is running.

Thanks a lot for all your advices an explanations!

Now i changed the left and right switches on the handlebar, for some more "vintage" looking ones.

Was a mess, i had to change the whole conectors an try every single cable, because not the same colors.

Now everything works fine, but the Bullet with the ignition on, without running, if i put the lights on the ampmeter deflect on the negative side, but not just a little, it is completly on the negative side...

Somebody has an explanation for that?

Pictures below...

[Adrian II]

Have you got both headlamp filaments coming on at the same time?

Did your Bullet originally have an AC headlight?

A.

[Fahnone]

Hay Adrian II, that's a good question about AC or not? I dont know..

For the filaments every cable is apart, maybe i switched some cables to the wrong place in the conector?

First theres the pilot lamps going on (ampeter deflects totally to negative) and the tiny lamp in front, second position the headlamp itself where the ampmeter deflects a bit less but still too much....

[Fahnone]

Do somebody has pictures of the headlight and pilot lights wiring of a bike close to mine 2007 Iron Bullet ES?

If i unplug the orange wire connected to the headlight the ampmeter stops to deflect negative! But then the headlight isn't working.

Still when i only use the parking light the ampmeter deflects total negative. (without engine running)

I dont know if i misswired somethind on the pilot lamps ord the main headlight....

[Adrian II]

2007 Bullets will have AC headlighting - the supply runs straight from the alternator to the headlamp dip switch via its own AC regulator and is supposed to be electrically isolated from the rest of the electrical system.

Your alternator should have four wires - two purple to supply the reg/rectifier for 12V DC for the battery, this supplies the ignition, horn, stop/tail light, pilot lights and the electric start solenoid. The E/S starter motor gets its supply from the battery via the two much thicker wires. The yellow and amber or orange wire are the AC feed for the headlight. Yellow is feed, amber/orange is return (not earth).

The vintage style switch gear was designed when all old British bikes had DC lights, so I don't know if you CAN use all DC switchgear without converting the whole system to DC. This can be done, of course, you can either wire-up the entire alternator supply to go through the reg/rectifier (see the Pete Snidal manual regarding how to do this) or fit a single-phase two wire Lucas alternator stator for a RM21 alternator, they are a straight swap mechanically for the Indian stator.

A.

[Raymond]

. . . DC switchgear without converting the whole system to DC . . . or fit a single-phase two wire Lucas alternator stator for a RM21 alternator, they are a straight swap mechanically for the Indian stator.

That's what I did - converted to all DC and fitted the Lucas RM21 stator. Used very similar switches too. Going all DC leaves the wiring system a lot simpler, the alternator can cope with demands, and more to the point on a good day I can understand what's going on with the electrics.


I can show my wiring diagram if it would be helpful?

[Adrian II]

I had your bike in mind, Raymond, I was just too lazy to post the link to your thread!

A.

[Fahnone]

Raymond hello, that would be absolutely nice to show me your wiring!

And a little explanation how i can change everything to DC.

The thing is everythings works fine ( lights, turnsignals, brakelight etc...)
Its just that the ampmeter is below negative, wich wasnt before?

[Fahnone]

Pictures nelow, the orange one has also a black cable going to the little pilot lamp in the headlight....

Are the wires connected correctly?
Also the orange/amber cable goes in a bullet connector to a red cable, going into the harness....

[stinkwheel]

First off. That much deflection of the ammeter means there is a crazy high current going through it. To the extent I'd say there is probably a short circuit somewhere.

Two common places you get a short like that (and somehow without causing the wiring the melt) are on the pilot light or the speedo back light bulb holder. If you've got them wired in back to front, the outside of the bulb holder is live and it shorts onto the hole you poke it through. So as a first quick and easy step, I'd pull those holders out of their holes so they aren't touching anything metal and see if the problem goes away.

Second. Running AC/DC lighting through switchgear designed for DC. It IS do-able but it's not simple or pretty. Probably the easiest way to wire up lighting switchgear would be to use one of the lucas style rotary headlamp switches in place of the ignition switch and relocate the ignition elsewhere.

I'm running AC/DC lighting on my trials bike through honda C90 switchgear. I made up a relay pack so the switches are all running DC and the switch output is sending the AC through to the headlight via the relays (and hooking in the AC regulator. There's method in the madness because it retains the functionality of the AC lighting but isn't loading all that current through the switches.

I made up the following circuit then epoxy-potted the whole lot in a little plastic container with the 7 wires coming out if it, I cable tied that to the fork stanchion inside the headlamp. I warned you it wasn't pretty!

[Fahnone]

Hello Stinkwheel again,

Thanks for explanation, but speedo and pilots are alright, even when pulling these cables out it changes nothing....

But instead, if i pull out the orange cable going to the headlamp so the the headlamp doesnt work anymore my ampmeter is normal!
But only in full light position, if i go to parking light it deflechts total negative... So now i dont know if it is related to the parking light or to the main light....

[richard211]

Unplug this wire from the park light bulb which I have circled in the photo and see wheter the headlight works and the short circuit is gone.

[AzCal Retred]

This is making me crazy(er). How & why are you even doing this without referring to a wiring diagram? There's one in the downloadable Hitchcock's manual. Didn't you look thru the schematic first? What's the wiring diagram of the new switches like? How does it compare to what was there? Electricity doesn't respond well to "cut'n try"; you can easily get into zorching the Bullets PlaySkool wiring loom and starting from scratch. Get the WD/Schematic out, peruse it, grasp it and/or ask questions, then get the VOM out and see what's what. Color codes are "approximate", sometimes good, sometimes not. Circuit logic always works but you need to have a firm grasp of it first. Flailing away just using the color codes on a used bike is a recipe for a long walk home.

You can't assume or guess here. You need to understand the OEM circuit logic, then make a plan, then test what's there to see if the new bits will function as desired, then test & retest as you go. Don't assume anything on RE wiring, you need to methodically prove it out.

Start here:
https://accessories.hitchcocksmotorcycles.com/core/media/media.nl?id=238185&c=1062795&h=cNYx2wrhLhAKvjDFCYzk7OBqjBtKiD1JLE4tvmZjY40Rn1aO&_xt=.pdf

[Fahnone]

@richard211 thanks mate for the help, but it changes nothing.

AzCal Retred, hello again, no use to get crazy mate, im not an electrician but still it is not the first i went trough a wiring, and of course never without a diagram, actually i have 3 of them, i have my book, wich is almost the same as the one of Hitchcock, the one of Hitchcock, and the one of Pete Snidal!

My problem here is that these new switches wich you can see in one of my previous posts, they dont have any wiring or color diagram! So hell yeah i was kind of forced to try them step by step, on at the time comparing with my Minda switches, until everything worked... I even had to add a cable and solder it to the switch to get an electric start, and like i said everything works, now im trying to figure out what take this amount of "juice" when i turn on Parking lights or headlight.

Dont want to offend you mate, im trying, im learning, espacially with you guys.

Theres also a connector i cant find in my manual who was ther "unconnected" since i got the bike and there is no other connecror to fit this one.

Picture below.

The black connector with two cables, red/white and brown

[AzCal Retred]

Switch internals can be deciphered using the VOM and creating a "truth table" on paper. Mostly but not always you can eyeball them, but the VOM tells the real story.

Once you have the truth table constructed you know their internal logic. It's just a matter of correlating the new switch leads with the desired functions. If all of the leads were the same color, mark them yourself with tape flags, assign a letter, associate that to the diagram you make. Simple stuff.

When you get inside the RE Casquette it gets real busy. AFAIK RE uses jobbers for the electrical subassemblies, and even on the assembly line they apparently sometimes just "use up what they got" to get the bike out the door. You need to "trust but verify" as you take stuff apart. Additionally on a used bike it can be a voyage of discovery, you just never know what the PO did.

Since you have the schematics, you can see that the headlight is AC and has an AC voltage regulator. It must be kept separate from the DC side. How did that requirement correlate to the new switch layout?

The Schematic also shows how the ammeter is connected in the system. Basically it is telling you when the REG/REC is charging the battery. With the engine off, key ON, all of mine deflect a bit left from the tail light being always on. When the points close and the coil charges it'll go maybe 2/3 over left, about 3-4 amps to the coil. As soon as the points open this load drops off. If yours is pegged left, as Stinkwheel says there is a high resistance short or mis-connected load present. You have to find it and correct it. To do that you'll need to methodically open up connections one at a time until you figure out which one it is.

The ignition coil has its normal (+) power source interrupted by the "kill switch". On a stock machine, if the ammeter is telling you that the points are closed, operating the kill switch removes power to the coil. The ignition key switch when OFF puts a ground parallel to the contact points and disconnects the battery. As the points effectively "never open", no spark is made, the engine stops. The battery is disconnected and the Reg/Rec can't provide power because the engine isn't able to run.

What kind of electrical troubleshooting tools do you have to work with? A VOM? A fused continuity light?

Tell me how many wires ( and colors?) are coming out of the new switch assembly, list the push buttons, switch levers and their positions, and I'll help you puzzle out the guts accurately.

[Raymond]

You asked to see my wiring diagram. Please note that my bike has been fitted by a PO with a Boyer Power box which does the work of a rectifier & regulator.





The two wires from the RM21 alternator both go to the Boyer box. Previously, two wires from the original alternator went to Boyer and the others went to the AC regulator and headlamp. Having all DC has allowed me to use the new switches - I am wondering whether having mixed AC & DC running through your lighting switch might be the cause of your difficulty?

[stinkwheel]

You asked to see my wiring diagram. Please note that my bike has been fitted by a PO with a Boyer Power box which does the work of a rectifier & regulator.





The two wires from the RM21 alternator both go to the Boyer box. Previously, two wires from the original alternator went to Boyer and the others went to the AC regulator and headlamp. Having all DC has allowed me to use the new switches - I am wondering whether having mixed AC & DC running through your lighting switch might be the cause of your difficulty?

This is not relevant to the subject of this thread but possibly somewhat relevant to your bike.

If I remember correctly, the boyer box will self-excite meaning if you remove the battery, the bike will still run and the lights still work yes?

That being the case, the bike will continue to operate in a short-circuit state even with a blown fuse until a wire melts through. I had a slightly different setup which did effectively the same thing and I was lucky that my short was only intermittant but it did fry one of the wires to the flasher (I'd trapped the insulation under the bracket when I bolted it on). Could just have easily been a vehicle fire. I fitted a second main fuse in the output from the reg/rec to prevent this happening again.

It may be there's some feature of a boyer that prevents this happening (like maybe it doesn't work if the battery isn't connected, even if it's flat) but if there isn't, might be something to consider.

[AzCal Retred]

Here's an elementary diagram of one of my AC headlight machines. It shows what the switch guts actually do, as well as a connection diagram below. You can get the general idea of how the AC & DC systems are separated. You need to know and prove exactly what's going on in the switch guts before connection.

The elementary is a simplified "logic" diagram of the system. It makes troubleshooting easy. "Power Flow" is (+) to (-) top to bottom. Switches are called out by  designation: S1, S2 & S3. Their schematic diagrams are on the sides and show the colors of the wires exiting the switch body.

The new switches might use the switch housing as a (-) "ground connection", you need to check continuity to the housing when "ringing out" a switch for your truth table.

PS - the Boyer Power Box is a nice piece. However - with a 4-wire alternator you'll need to reconfigure it to put all of the AC coils in parallel to let it make enough "Ongawa" to run a DC headlight. OR - get one of those nice 120W RM21 Lucas alternators. The AC system works well, you just need to keep it separate from the DC side. Some switches can make that hard to do. That's why we ring them out and make a "truth table". There's also no shame in doing it "Caveman Style" and just using a marine-grade boat toggle switch for Hi/Lo, it's not like we ride these a lot at night.

[stinkwheel]

PS - the Boyer Power Box is a nice piece. However - with a 4-wire alternator you'll need to reconfigure it to put all of the AC coils in parallel to let it make enough "Ongawa" to run a DC headlight. OR - get one of those nice 120W RM21 Lucas alternators.

Or fit a high quality LED headlamp bulb. I have LEDs all over my 612. The H4 LED headlamp bulb is better than a normal halogen one and works at anything from 9 to 32v. Not all LED bulbs are created equal though, mine was quite expensive. The bike draws a maximum of 4A when running and with ALL the lights on. Do not attempt to use  an LED bulb with AC lighting though! The only significant modification I had to make to fit it was fitting the wider headlamp ring from the electra-x (the one that goes between the casquette and the headlamp itself) so the heat sink didn't foul the speedo cable.

Here's the bulb I'm using. https://www.classiccarleds.co.uk/products/latest-led-headlight-h4-motorcycle

[AzCal Retred]

The Bullet stator is a 60-80 Watt unit when all the coils are paralleled. 4A x 12V = 48 Watts, about 2/3rds to 3/4ths of the available output. Not much slack there.

The only other "fixed" load is the spark coil which is intermittent and pretty minimal.

The big advantage to the Power Box is that it actually regulates battery charging voltage to 13.6V - 14.2V. All the OEM Reg/Recs on my machines kinda park at +16V which will tend to cook a Lead Acid battery. My ES350 has a Boyer and has zero overcharging issues. My other two KS only machines got an end run method, I just used some old 18V NiMH power tool batteries. Small, leak-proof & highly vibration resistant, they are plenty good enough to start the machine on, the reg/rec takes care of business after that. The 16V reg/rec isn't able to cook the 18V rated NiMH batteries.

LEDs use 1/5th the watts of an equivalent incandescent for the same light output. My $12, 35W incandescent sealed beam got swapped out for a "similar*" $25, fauxish-sealed-beam LED unit that draws the same 3A but is waaaay brighter. Whatever you buy, check the "as designed" current draw numbers. LEDs are supposed to be much more vibration resistant, but time will tell.

*(It took some butchery & back-yard engineering to make it fit into the 5 3/4" shell inside the casquette...) 

[Raymond]

Apologies for this digression, but Stinkwheek, I think what you are saying is that on my Boyer Power box system, it would be a Good Idea to fit a second fuse, on the cable from the BB to the main harness?

[Fahnone]

Hello again AzCal Retred, thank for your diagram, it is a lot easier for me to understand, also nice work with the Minda switches and colors.

After work im gonna retry to find the missconnected wire, i think because of your diagram i have an idea, maybe i miss connected one of the new switch wires to the yellow one coming from the main harness so the A/C... Its just theory but let me get this straight. The yellow wire going into the connector coming from the harness is the A/C on seperated from the rest?

[Noodlees]

Hi! hope u will solve the trouble asap.

Listen, I had this trouble one time. Happened when I had "short circuit". In my case was fault of the pilot lamp one time and of the tail stop the seconds. Both cases the isolation went off and was touching some metal part of the bike. Check every connections and I am sure u will find the problem!

[Fahnone]

Hello Noodlees, thank for the example, before changing the switches everything was working fine so i guess i missconnected from the new switches a D/C cable to A/C maybe....
Im still gonna check the pilot and parking lamps if they touch metal

[Noodlees]

Yup!

It's really probable you have some bad connections somewhere. If before the change was working, almost sure the problem is in there.

Good Luck!!!

[Fahnone]

Thanks mate, i keep you all in touch

[stinkwheel]

Apologies for this digression, but Stinkwheek, I think what you are saying is that on my Boyer Power box system, it would be a Good Idea to fit a second fuse, on the cable from the BB to the main harness?

Yes. Assuming it will continue to supply power to the bike even if the battery is removed. Which I'm pretty sure they do.

[Fahnone]

AzCal Retred hey mate, your wiring diagram helped so far, still im not quiet sure to understand everything...

On both connectors coming from the main harness, supposed to cennect each to the switches, both have a yellow, and a yellow/red wire... That are the wires connected A/C?

The new switch LH doesnt have a "flasher" button... An theres on pinhole not connected because the new one has only 8 wires cing from the switch.

Tell me what you may need to help me...

Got the problem solved with the parking/pilot lamps now when i turn on the ampmeter stays almost in the center, but second position where you are supposed to have the headlight running/glowing.... Nothing

[Raymond]

Yes. Assuming it will continue to supply power to the bike even if the battery is removed. Which I'm pretty sure they do.

Yes, it's a bit of a mystery to me but I think that's what it does. Seems part of the idea is you can run the bike without a battery. But the first encounter I had with the strangeness of the Power box was the smart charger wouldn't. I used to disconnect the battery to run a few electrons into it, but now I've fitted a charging harness direct to the + & - ve terminals. I'll certainly adopt your suggestion of a fuse on the Power box feed.

[cyrusb]

Drawing that much current, there has to be a very hot wire somewhere, no?
 Trouble shoot by looking for the fire!

[AzCal Retred]

The 4-wire alternator has two pairs of wires; a "purple" pair destined for the Reg/Rec and a "Yellow & Amber(orange?) pair for the headlight. BOTH pairs provide AC alternating current. These are separate AC systems.

The yellow/amber pair:
The Amber wire is the "common leg" and isn't grounded.
The Yellow wire is the "Hot Leg" and is the switched side.
The AC Voltage Regulator does just that, it uses electro-wizzerdry to keep the AC voltage side from going really high, like to +30V. 

The Amber wire connects to the common leg of your headlamp bulb and the AC Voltage Regulator. The ACVR keeps headlight voltage to (very) approximately 14 VAC.

The Yellow wire "probably" runs first to the AC Voltage Regulator widget, turns (maybe) to a yellow/red wire and then goes to the Hi/Lo switch common leg.

The headlight is always intended to be on unless you route it first thru an On/Off switch for the headlight. It's a safety thing, and a warm filament usually outlasts a cold, brittle one under vibration.

Once the red/yellow gets to the Hi/Lo switch, power goes either to the high beam filament or the low beam filament, depending on which is selected. Power returns on the amber(orange?) wire to the alternator.

Find the AC Voltage Regulator and see what wires are attached to it. It "should be" an amber (common) in/out on one side, a yellow - red/yellow (power/hot leg) in/out on the other side.

Other than the ACVR, headlight and hi/lo switch, nothing else needs to connect to these wires.

Good hunting - ACR -

CB@ #29: We used to use a "Thumper" (mechanically pulsed 50A - 100A high current source) to find wires in cable trays. Usually you can use a pulse tracer, but on occasion you just have to "cranker 'er up" and look for smoke to find the ground...

[Fahnone]

Hello AzCal Retred, so below i post some pictures of the wiring.

Coming from the alternator as you say two pairs of cables, two purple ones, a yellow and a orange one.

The yellow and orange one are going into the harness, then it looks like they are coming back into the AC Regulator 12V.

Is this correct so far?

[Fahnone]

Alao some pictures of the "new" switches inside.

So left switch 9 cables coming out like the Minda switch, right switch 8 cables so one less.

So left switch hi/low beam 3 cables, blue, blue/white and white.

Right switch off, parking/pilotlamps and headlight 4 cables black, brown/white, brown and blue/white.

Hope this could maybe help

[AzCal Retred]

Fill out the truth table - refer to the elementary switch layout section I attached before. Use the VOM on resistance to "ring out" the wiring.
Assume that the switch housing also functions as a path to "ground" and read it just like the other wires. You need to KNOW what is connecting to what in every switch position.

Read every wire to the housing and every other wire for each switch input (on,off, etc). Record actual connections between wires and housing with a "crossed dot" and a thick line between them. Again, refer to the elementary switch layout to see how this is done.

You listed 7 out of 17 wires, you'll need to fill in the rest.

Only 2 switched functions are discussed & pictured, there have to be more. You'll need to fill in those functions too.

The elementary I provided earlier shows exactly how this needs to be wired to run the AC headlight.
IF you also want to run the pilot lamps on AC too it gets more complicated, YOU'LL need a precise understanding of what the off-pilot-headlight function wiring is doing. That's what the truth table is for - connections.

I recommend the simple way - AC only for headlamp in "head". Let the "pilot" position do nothing. Or even simpler - skip On/Off entirely and just let the headlight be "always on" in either Hi or Lo.
Apply only DC to the tail lamp, pilots & instrument lamps whenever the main key is on. Go all LED and the load is almost zero.
Otherwise you'll likely be in relay logic turf, adding unnecessary complexity.

You saw a single yellow & orange at the Reg/Rec. This means that these wires are spliced inside the harness. If so, and they followed their own color code, there should be a Rd/Yel & Org pair (hot & com) at the headlight shell. Use the VOM to positively ID these back to the Reg/Rec.
That Org goes to headlight common, the Rd/Yel to the Hi/Lo IF you are running "always on". If you want to use the on/off switch function, Rd/Yel goes to it and then back to the Hi/Lo switch on the other handlebar. Busy, eh?

[Fahnone]

AzCal Retred thanks, gonna try this at home.

Just one question, i have two 9x2.8 connectors coming from the main harness supposed to connect the other two 9x2. 8 connectors from the switches.

Both coming from the main harness have a yellow and a yellow/red cable per side, so on the left and on the right. It kind of confuses me because you told me the yellow "hot leg" coming from the alternator trough the A/C Regulator maybe turns into a yellow/red wire. In my case i have both, so i presume talking about A/C only i have to focus on the yellow wires to the switches not the yellow/red ones?

[Fahnone]

@ AzCal Retred, yeah my head is hurting.... Haha.

But why do i have a yellow and a yellow/red on both connectors?

The original Minda switches are connected in the way that with headlight on on the right switch everything is on, the pilots included!

And with the left switch i can switch between low and high beam.

Why i cant fit this properly to the new switches? The principe schould be the same? Im missing something.....

[Fahnone]

By the way, am i right that shown in the pictures below, who shows the left handlebar switch the yellow and yellow/red cables arent connceted to some kind of button or switch?

[AzCal Retred]

The OEM WD/Schematics are a bit "vague", I usually look at several versions and figure out what one most closely correlates, THEN ring out the OEM switches to see who's who on the WD/Schem. Trust but verify.

Look at my elementary, figure out why the AC has to be seperate. Trace & verify the wires with your VOM. Fill out the truth table for those new switches.
AFTER you ring out the new switches, go back to the ones that were working, build truth tables for them too Then compare on paper to see the differences.
For one switch to handle AC & DC, it requires two electrically separate but mechanically parallel switching operations, a "2 pole" set up. You'll likely see that after you do the work.

What are you using for a VOM?

[Fahnone]

I dont have a VOM, gonna ask a friend of mine to borrow me one of his VOM's.

How do i check the different wires with a VOM?

[AzCal Retred]

Use the Ohms/Resistance function - ask your pal to show you on his machine.

Air is "Infinite Resistance", lead connected to lead is "Zero Resistance".

Ring out your switches, fill in the chart.
Test ALL wires in every switch position, it's EZ to "see" something that isn't there inside a switch assembly.
The meter will tell you if there are filings or shavings inside the contact assembly, something you likely can't see by eye.
The meter does not lie. Make sure you get a good "bite" and have a good connection.
Readings very near zero or infinite is the norm with contacts, other than that & there is crud/??? involved.
Test your meter leads periodically to make sure the battery isn't going wonky or a lead broke internally.

Good hunting - ACR -

[Fahnone]

Hello AzCal Retred, a question a side, on your elementary you show exactly how to connect the Minda switches.

I presume you have the same as mine?

Pictures below.

[AzCal Retred]

Yuppers, Minda - no yellow (flash?) button though, probably older than yours. The Magura unobtainium kak died and I transplanted the newer Minda hardware into it. I like to use what's current production. The throttle cables and decompressor cables are different, as well as the leves & mounts. An overall improvement in my book. Anyhoo - once you get it flopped to all Minda hardware it makes life much easier & more affordable. The Minda stuff is actually pretty cheap, but the main appeal is easy availability and at least "sorta" stock.

I had to ring out the old 3-wire Magura all-DC units as well as the newer Minda units, then adapt the 4-wire Minda AC-DC switchgear into the scheme after I understood its functionality.

The newer Bullet schematics leave off lots of little connection details in the switchgear. I guess it's a low priority since it's been out of production awhile now. That's why the home made "switch schematics" are on either side of the Elementary.

Lots of connections are made inside the harness, so just counting wires & colors in/out doesn't really work.

That's why I build & use Elementary diagrams to work off of, it shows what's actually happening logically instead of the very busy "sorta in place" schematic system.

Those elementary drawings are easily modified using Microsoft Paint. Building an elementary gives you a much better feel for what's going on.

Hitchcock's carry the old "Lucas Style" switches as well. They are "Primitive Pete" stuff but work well. Too much sophistication on these old electrical systems just makes life harder when de-bugging a problem. The new stuff is definitely more waterproof though.

There's no real point to shutting off the AC headlight, Hi/Lo is good enough and keeps things real simple. The amount of power the lights take is very small and you increase your visibility in traffic.

The coolest thing I ran across so far after going to all-LED bulbs was LED turn signal assemblies that blink whenever (+) voltage is applied, so no flasher unit needed at all. That saves a lot of extra wire.

[Fahnone]

For the moment i switched back to the Minda ones, but it's not like you said with the headlight "always on" i have on the right handlebar the off-pilot-headlight switch, when i put it on head with ignition on the bulb doesn't glow, only when the bike is running...

[Mr_84]

when i put it on head with ignition on the bulb doesn't glow, only when the bike is running...

This is the same for my bike , but the “flash” or some call it “Pass” button will light up high beam when the engine is Not running

[richard211]

There is an aftermarket wiring harness available in India for the 4 wire alternator (AC/DC) that directly connects to the newer Minda switches. Don't forget to install the correct handle bar grips, throttle cable and de-compressor cable if going for the newer Minda switches.

[AzCal Retred]

I have two Minda equipped machines. The (3-wire, all-DC) KS500 has the Off/Pilot/On RH switch, a useful feature on an all DC system to save the battery. The (4-wire, AC lighting) ES350 does not have that function, it's always on.

Switchgear varies from country to country. The point I was making was that I wouldn't go to any extra effort to add that feature to an AC lighting machine, it just doesn't matter.

when i put it on head with ignition on the bulb doesn't glow, only when the bike is running...
That's rather the nature of AC lighting, but at least it can't make your battery go flat! 

@ Mr. 84: This is the same for my bike , but the “flash” button will light up high beam when the engine is Not running
That means the DC system is supplying power to the AC side...and vice versa when you hit the "flash" button with the engine running. Worth looking into.

[Fahnone]

Hey Richard211, i think i actually have the newer ones from Minda, as you can see in the previous post.

They have both a 9x2.8 connector, on the other side, so the main harness the same also 9x2.8 connectors

[Fahnone]

Does anyone can tell me if there is any meaning or description to the number figuring the rh and lh switches on the wiring diagram?

And if i am right that on the LH switch the yellow and yellow/red wires doesn't seems to be connected to the switch?

In my case of the Minda switches every wire is connected.

Wich one gets the A/C current? The right one with high or low beam?

Sorry for the question i still not got a VOM to ring out the wires....

[richard211]

Technically both the Right and Left hand handle bar switches are connected to the alternator A/C for power.

 Looking at the wiring diagram the yellow wire is the switched power feed. On the right hand switch the yellow wire (pin 7) is power source and when the headlight switch is in the on position, the power flows through pin 8 which is the yellow wire with the brown stripe. This wire then goes through the harness to the left hand handle bar switch, which is terminal 2. Terminal 2 is the common terminals for the headlight high / low switch. From terminal 2 power can go to pin 1( green wire) or pin 3 (blue wire) depending on what position the headlight high / low swich is in.

 Now on pin 4 there is another yellow wire that comes from the alternator. This is the power feed for the flash / pass light. When the flash / pass light button is pressed, power from the alternator goes from pin 4 (yellow wire) to pin 3 (blue wire) that switches on the high beam of the headlight.

[Fahnone]

Hello Richard211, wow nice explanation, thanks for that, so with my new switches without having the "flash" button the yellow wire is useless?
So only yellow feed on the headlight "ON" position on the right switch, and yellow/red feed on the left switch high or low beam, is this correct?

[richard211]

If you don't have the flash / pass light switch, the left hand switch can still be used, but the flash / pass light function is not available.

 The yellow wire has power the whole time the engine is running because it's directly connected to the alternator. When the headlight switch is in the on position then power flows from the yellow wire to the yellow wire with brown stripe. Then power from the yellow wire with the brown stripe on the right handle bar switch goes to the Left hand handle bar switch to the headlight via the headlight high low switch

[AzCal Retred]

" Does anyone can tell me if there is any meaning or description to the number figuring the rh and lh switches on the wiring diagram? "

Every switch or relay has a diagram from the manufacturer showing the internals, often called a pinout diagram. Each number is associated with a contact "leg" or wire associated with a particular contact. This diagram also shows the mechanical operation of the switch, i.e., which contacts are connected in a particular switch position. I put examples of those on the drawings I posted to you, leaving off the numbers as the wire color code was of more value to me. You can add the numbers in as you figure them out if desired.

For some reason most of these switch pinout drawings are missing off of newer RE schematics, so you need to "ring out" the switch for yourself, using a truth table to record the results then creating a sketch of the internals from that. Older drawings from the 30's & 40's seem to incorporate pinout schematics of the switches, but that nicety has apparently been lost. Often the only way to ID the internals is to follow a particular color to a number point, then label that point on the diagram internals on your own homemade pinout drawing. This is simply an exercise in logic & persistence.

A VOM meter is an essential "must-have" tool, and they are cheap. A $10 VOM is plenty of tool to ring out a switch. That, a sheet of paper and a pencil and you are there. In "olden times" a lamp, a battery and two wires was used to check for continuity. This isn't rocket science or magic, just another essential skill to be mastered. Stop delaying by waiting for your friend, just get a cheap VOM from the hardware store or auto supply & dive in. Until then you won't have a "frame of reference" and it won't really make sense.

[Fahnone]

Hello AzCal Retred, got my VOM today! Yippie!

How do i ring out the wires?

With the new switches connected?

One lead in the pin connector and the other end for example to the AC Regulator? To ring out the yellow (A/C) wire?

[AzCal Retred]

One of the first steps is to read the VOM destructions and learn the tool. Electricity is invisible, odorless & tasteless, the VOM is the window into that world. Do some resistance readings and measure some DC battery voltages. Get some familiarity with the new tool. It's handy to be able to clip the lead to the wire instead of holding it. Is this a digital VOM or analog? If analog, you need to be aware of what you are connecting to so you don't zorch the meter. They worked fine for 100 years, just be aware.

There are two drawings already posted previously that show how to ring out the switch and fill in the truth table. The VOM on resistance will tell you if the switch you are ringing out is associated with the wire(s) you are measuring.

Start with the switch, isolated "in your hand" as it were, that's the focus. Get the table made and go from there. Be aware that the switch housing may be part of the circuit, you need to prove that it is or isn't. Ringing out wiring on the bike is a little different game.

Be methodical - one thing at a time. PROVE what you know and record results before moving on.

[stinkwheel]

Since I was bored, on call and happen to have a late model AC/DC Minda light switch sat in a box. I did the following pinout diagram. You can regard the two blues as effectively the same wire, they are connected internally inside the switch.

The connections marked in green are effectively doing nothing. it's just the 2-position dip/beam switch sitting in the dip position.

[AzCal Retred]

See Fahnone? Just - Like - That!

[Fahnone]

Hello Stinkwheel, thanks for your picture, but i see you have some examples like black on grey, and blue on red/white.... But you have Minda switches?

On my Minda switches the wire colors are all the same on both sides of the connectors, so easy!

Now with the new one's i just have to learn how to "ring out" the wires, never did this, so i dont know where to start an do the "truth table" from AzCal Retred.

With the original switches in the first place? When yes were do i put the leads from the VOM?

This is absoleutely new for me testing out wires, i know i already got a lot of explanations but still...

Gonna check some videos maybe.

[AzCal Retred]

IF you have the plug connectors attached to the switches, strip the insulation from the ends of a couple spare pieces of suitably small diameter copper wire to act as "extenders/test probes" to reach into the "female" 1/2 of the connector. Slide these into connector on the positions of the wires you intend to test. Read from the ends of the bare copper wire with your meter. Obviously you do this with the switch not connected to anything else. Operate the switches sliding buttons and push buttons and record when any continuity is found. Move one test probe and repeat.

The idea is to see/verify what is connected to what internally and when it picks up. If you can clearly see on the switch which wires go to a particular switch function, test those as a group.

For example, say the Hi/Lo clearly has only 3 wires associated with it; orange, green, blue. One probe goes into orange on the connector, the other into green. You could connect the VOM (+ red) lead to orange, VOM (- black) to green. Cycle the switch & record results. Move the VOM Black lead to the connector blue wire and repeat. Now move the VOM Red to the connector Green and repeat. You now have all combos of continuity covered (Or-Gn, Or-Bu, Gn-Bu) for every switch position.

Again - refer to the pair of switch test drawings I posted. The VOM is the oval, the leads are the two "wires" coming out top & bottom either touching the ends of the switch wires or the switch metal housing.

When you are looking for continuity to the housing, probably the bare metal on the inside is your best bet. The outside usually has paint or clear coat, both non-conductible. Test it with the meter to see. Obviously if the housing is plastic...

[stinkwheel]

Hello Stinkwheel, thanks for your picture, but i see you have some examples like black on grey, and blue on red/white.... But you have Minda switches?

On my Minda switches the wire colors are all the same on both sides of the connectors, so easy!

When i put something like white on red, that's the colour of the wire coming off the switch. A white wire with a red tracer stripe. Pretty sure they are the same colour both sides of the connector blocks.

[AzCal Retred]

How is that electrical engineering project going, any clarity yet? Results? Smoke or Fire? Enquiring Minds need to know...

[Fahnone]

Hello AzCal Retred, now sorry for not updating yet, got some other stuff sadly more important to do....

But i started the truth table from the original Minda switches, at least i know how this works now.

Have to finish these, an then attacking the new ones.

Greetings

[AzCal Retred]

It's a process...keep grinding away!

[Fahnone]

AzCal Retred thanks for all your help, i think with the truth table of the new switches and your elemtary im sure to get this done!

[Fahnone]

Hello everybody, long ago, had no time to mess around with the until yesterday.

But i kind of giving it up, figured out the truth tables from AzCal Retred, compared everything too the elemtary, but still the ampmeter deflects, as i opened up my original Minda switch i saw that behind the switch plate of the Off/Pilot/Headlight where is located this little metal switch plate making connections trough switching the lever has actually two different metal plates seperating DC from AC, wich makes it impossible "i think so" to run the new switches..... Every single combination in the new RH switch draws AC into the DC system, because the connection behind the metal plate aren't seperated...so i think it makes it impossible....

So i think maybe the best option is to get a Lucas 1 phase 2 wires RM21 Stator.

Is this all that has to be changed or also Reg/Rec an new wiring?
 So the idea is to covert to all DC, in a proper way.

Greetings

[Adrian II]

I suggest you check back against Raymond's posts, he has already successfully done exactly what you are proposing to do.

A.

[Fahnone]

Hello AdrianII, thanks.

I already looked at his older post but i think he has a Boyer Box installed, so do i need one of those?

And what's about this?
Found it in another thread.

[Adrian II]

Replacing the old reg/rectifier MIGHT be a good idea, it depends how good the old one is. If you fit the RM21 stator it will have more work to do! The Boyer Power Box is fine if you want a built-in capacitor, otherwise a generic single phase item (for less money!) will perform adequately, you can always are in a separate capacitor if you want to run the bike without a battery.

A.

[AzCal Retred]

There are two isolated coils in the alternator for a 4 wire system. I don't think you are up to phasing these yet.

I would just get the Boyer power box and 2-wire Lucas 120W alternator stator and call it good. The Boyer actually regulates voltage to proper levels so it won't kill the battery by overcharging.

NONE of this solves the dead short issue. You need to KNOW what is causing in, not guess. Start methodically unplugging peripheral bits ONE AT A TIME, then retesting until the short "goes away" and you discover the accountable party. Whilst doing this, USE THE WIRING DIAGRAM, understand what you are unplugging, and predict what you think will happen next. Then you'll understand what it was and why it existed. If you are lucky, unplugging the alternator AC lighting leads first will solve the mystery.

There's really no reason to not just use the AC headlight lash up. Keep it as an "always-on" isolated system and let the DC side do its thing. Wire it straight to the low beam and go riding. A $20 Hi/Lo Primitive Pete dedicated switch can give you Hi/Lo if it's important. Make sure the AC voltage regulator is doing its thing too.


xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

4-WIRE ALTERNATOR                                                       RECTIFIER/REGULATOR       
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
From the alternator connect a yellow wire to a violet wire. Then connect these 2 joined wires to one of the violet wires going to the rectifier/regulator.
From the alternator connect the remaining two wires (amber and violet) together. Then connect these 2 joined wires to the remaining violet wire leading to the regulator.

Note: Violet and Amber are the colors specified in the wiring diagram. For those of you who have forgotten the “color wheel” from your school days     
Amber is the same as Orange and Violet is the same as Purple

5/17/07 e-mail to customer jrp

The instructions use color codes of Violet/violet for the Regulator/rectifier . Ok, so some bikes are built with whatever wire seems to be on hand making us be more innovative. So, check the two wires that are at the old alternator end of the connector, usually behind the distributor, and connect one violet/yellow combination and one violet/orange combination to the other. The most likely two colors to tie the 4 wire to are: Green and White.

In principal, there are two wires that are the AC side of the R/R and two that are the DC side. To verify you are using the correct two wires, trace down the two that are the DC side. Black should go to the battery ground (-) and Brown to the Ignition.

Thank you,
Jim Pendergrass
Classic Motorworks
1 800 201 7472

[Fahnone]

Good morning,

thsnks for the recomendations, i still gonna try the new switches and figure out what makes the short cut like you sais AzCal, yet another question, there is a Lucas 120W stator at hitchcocks but it descripes for pre 1999 models?
Could i use this one?

https://accessories.hitchcocksmotorcycles.com/15429?cont_page=Charging&model=15

[Raymond]

Yes, Fahnone, that Hitchcocks alternator is the same as the one I fitted - Lucas RM21. Widely available.

I would imagine H say it's for pre-1999 models exactly due to the AC/DC issue - I don't know at what point RE made the change to headlamp 'always on' for the US market, but that is when you would need a different alternator. So if you're changing that set up, the RM21 is fine . . . but as AzCal says, you can instead stick with the AC lash-up.

My bike uses the RM21, all the output is taken to the rectifier/regulator. On my bike, that's a Boyer Power box because the bike came to me with one, otherwise I would have bought a common-or-garden rec/reg as I don't need the capacitance feature. The bike has been completely re-wired, which I did to end up with simpler electrics I can just about understand.

[Fahnone]

Hello Raymond, thanks for your answer.

So there is indeed some wiring to do by changing the stator and adding a Boyer Power Box?

I assume i have to rewire the old AC wires?

[Fahnone]

Or let me put this more simple in one single question!
What do i have to change exactly to everything on DC? And what do i have to rewire?

Thanks all of you for your time

[AzCal Retred]

All you need to do AFTER the Lucas/Boyer system is in place is remove the AC bits. You have already run DC into the existing lighting switch, just connect the headlight switches "Goes-Outa" wires to their respective Hi/Lo posts on the headlamp.

The higher capacity Lucas stator won't have the two AC lighting wires coming out so the AC regulator won't be connected to anything. It just drives the Boyer Reg/Rec. Remove the AC regulator and the AC side wiring. Make sure the headlamp has the "common leg" earthed/grounded (-).

BUT - before ANY of that, find the actual source of that short. It just won't do to have a built-in short waiting on the new Boyer Reg/Rec.

As you are working keep your drawing handy and compare what you find back to it. The operating logic on your bike needs to be the same. The WD/Schematic is the functional roadmap for the electrical system. You are essentially reverting to the 1998 all DC system.

When installing the new stator, don't forget to rotate the engine and recheck stator to rotor clearance multiple times. It's a process...

[Fahnone]

Good morning AzCal, thsnks.

So the yellow and yellow wire for now still AC has to be rewired into the DC system, am i right?

And the AC regulator can be deleted?

[Adrian II]

The AC regulator has no use in all DC lighting set-up.

If you are using the 4 wire alternator stator to put all its output through the reg/rectifier, connect the yellow wire to one of the purple wires, then connect the amber or orange wire to the other purple wire. Connect one pair of wires to one of the AC inputs on the reg/rectifier, then connect the other pair of wires to the other AC input.

Then you need a feed wire from the 12DC side of the charging system to the light switch from the negative terminal of the ammeter, If you are using a custom/accessory lighting switch, follow the maker's diagram.

If you are keeping the Minda switch gear you can use it for all DC lights but be careful what you connect! On two of my bikes with all DC lighting and Minda KICKSTART Bullet left-hand switchgear I had to make sure that the Red and Yellow wire was not connected to anything. I connected the Red and WHITE wire and the Yellow wire to the 12V supply. If your Bullet has electric start the switchgear it might be different.



A.

[tooseevee]

The AC regulator has no use in all DC lighting set-up.

If you are using the 4 wire alternator stator to put all its output through the reg/rectifier, connect the yellow wire to one of the purple wires, then connect the amber or orange wire to the other purple wire. Connect one pair of wires to one of the AC inputs on the reg/rectifier, then connect the other pair of wires to the other AC input.

Then you need a feed wire from the 12DC side of the charging system to the light switch from the negative terminal of the ammeter, If you are using a custom/accessory lighting switch, follow the maker's diagram.

If you are keeping the Minda switch gear you can use it for all DC lights but be careful what you connect! On two of my bikes with all DC lighting and Minda KICKSTART Bullet left-hand switchgear I had to make sure that the Red and Yellow wire was not connected to anything. I connected the Red and WHITE wire and the Yellow wire to the 12V supply. If your Bullet has electric start the switchgear it might be different.
A.

               Both you & AzCal make my head spin with elektrickery     I'm so glad that when I went through all the wiring stem to stern on my '08 I just had to reproduce or refurbish or make improvements to what was THERE already.

               But isn't it lucky for others that we have you two & quite a few others?

[AzCal Retred]

The Lucas stator has (I think) about 120-150 watt output, about twice the OEM unit.
There is ONLY two wires exiting this stator instead of the 4 as for the OEM 4-wire unit.
So, there is only one thing to hook up - the two "purple" wires of the reg/rec AC input side wiring.
This lets you run 60W halogen bulbs if you want. Maybe even electric socks or gloves.
Using the 4-wire stator requires phasing the 2 purple, yellow & orange wires. It's kind of a "brane huurt" process, and there's multiple ways to screw up.It's more involved and you end up with less output than the Lucas.
I advocate the K.I.S.S. principle - keep it simple, stupid. This has worked well for me for over the past fifty years. Simple = good. The Lucas bits and the Boyer reg/rec/built in starting cap provide a much better & simpler system than the OEM bits.
If you want to do it the hard way it'll take some study. If you zorch the parts by accident you'll be buying the Lucas bits anyway.

https://accessories.hitchcocksmotorcycles.com/15429?cont_page=accessory-shop/Charging
PART No. LU/47205; STATOR 12V, FOR 2.15/16'' DIAMETER ROTORS, *LUCAS*; £75.00
STATOR 12v for 2.15/16" diameter rotors, *LUCAS* Fitted to many British bikes and pre June 1999 Indian Bullets (WITH 2 or 3 WIRES) A Lucas aftermarket, encapsulated stator which gives out up to 120 watts, far in excess of the standard unit. Can be fitted to many British bikes and pre June 1999 Indian Bullets with 2 or 3 wires. It is suitable for running higher wattage or halogen bulbs and gives higher output at lower revs. Also known as the RM21.

[Fahnone]

Hello AzCal, im not at the point to try doing it the hard way, im going to stick to a Lucas Stator an maybe a Boyer Box, or a single phase Lucas Reg/Rec will do it maybe also

Just wondering how much rewiring it needs after installing?

The amber and yellow wire from the actual stator will dissapear along with the AC Regulator, so im left with 2 wires from the Lucas stator, they will be connected to the Reg/Rec or the Boyer Box, and the Reg/Rec or Boyer Box connects to the main harness i suppose?
What about the AC wiring going into the harness and trough the Minda switches?

[Paul W]

I’ve been trying to catch up with this six page thread having lost my access to the forum for a while.

Surely, the problem here is simple enough, ie that there is a short to earth somewhere in the existing wiring?

[Raymond]

It gets hard to try and explain what you need wire by wire, though I'm sure there are people on this forum who can do that. But what I decided to do was replace all the wiring.

Carefully recorded what was there, drew sketches, simplified, drew the simplified system and replaced every wire and connector on the bike. It's my belief that most of the annoying  little problems that undermine reliability of an older motorbike are due to old and dodgy wiring. The bike now has the Lucas RM21 stator, DC only, the Boyer Power box which was already on the bike, LED headlamp, only one wire in & out from the ignition switch, no self cancelling indicators or other fancy features. FWIW, here's my diagram, finalised with generous help from the folks around here.

[Fahnone]

Hello Paul W,

a short in the circuit or an earthing short would mean that even with the original Minda switches there would be a short also somwhere no?

[Paul W]

I’ve just checked my 350. With the engine stopped and sidelights, brake light, indicators flashing and the horn button pressed (highest battery load I can get on this bike), the ammeter needle only shows half deflection, as expected.

[Fahnone]

@ Paul W, thanks for testing, i had no problems what so ever before i tried to put new switches on, probably All DC designed switches, and i think the short circuit happens with the new switches on, because back now to the OEM Minda switches there is no problem, i opened the RH one and saw that the Minda switch has two different metal plates inside the Off/Pilot/Headlight switch pribably to seperate AC from DC, wich i think i cant do with the new ones without converting the bike to all DC

[AzCal Retred]

" So, there is only one thing to hook up - the two "purple" wires of the reg/rec AC input side wiring. "

The new Boyer or Lucas Reg/Rec will have just two AC input wires & two DC output wires. The new alternator stator has only two AC output wires, those are intended for the Reg/Rec.

You need to verify the source of the current short/fault before swapping out the system guts.

The only "normal loads" are lighting & ignition coil.

Unplugging the points removes the ignition coil.

The headlight load if 35W will be about 3 amps, and that'll deflect the ammeter most of the way over. Unplug the headlight and that goes away.

Peripheral lighting draws under 1A, well under if you are using LEDs.

Keep unplugging & testing until you find it.

I'd start with the four leads exiting the existing alternator myself.

Good hunting - ACR -

[Paul W]

I haven’t read the entire thread from start to finish but if there is no problem with the old switches, only with new and assuming the latter aren’t faulty, I’d say it must be that you’ve connected an existing live wire to what should be an earth connection on the new switch.

Sorry I can’t help more….I’m deeply involved in my own vehicle project (car with ECU tuning failure) that’s giving me lots of grief. Hopefully the new throttle position sensor I’ve just fitted will help fix it.

[AzCal Retred]

PW - Essentially the new aftermarket handlebar switches don't offer a separate & parallel path for the 4-wire "AC Lighting" system. An all DC Lucas based stator system is the most straightforward end to Fahnone's conundrum other than reverting to OEM Minda switchgear. He'll gain charging capacity and simplify his wiring a bit. The only cheap way out is to phase & parallel the lighting coils, but he's not "there" yet. As always, there are few (mechanical & electrical, anyway...) problems application of money won't resolve.

Best of luck with the ECU adventure! I certainly don't envy you that. - ACR -

[Paul W]

Yes, when you modify from standard parts (bikes or cars!) you soon become a research engineer.

I’ve future proofed my 350 Bullet Electra as best I can by buying OE parts one by one as they’ve come up at good prices because it’s an unusual model. In my spares drawer now I have spare Minda handlebar switches (actually fitted the right side one a few months ago), a magneto flywheel, with matching stator and ignition sensor, TCI unit, a full wiring harness for the bike and a few other parts. I’ve not bought a coil because they are easy to come by and plentiful, but it’s always useful to have one ready so I might just get one of those too.

On the other hand, my car has a Suzuki three cylinder, one litre, front wheel drive engine driving a Suzuki Jimny rear wheel drive gearbox and a Bedford rear axle with Reliant three wheeler brakes. The engine runs on throttle bodies from a BMW K75 motorbike, with Skoda fuel injectors fitted in the inlet ports of a modified head. The throttle position sensor is from a Rover/MGF sportscar. Plus other assorted parts to tie it all together and it’s all controlled by an Emerald K6+ programmable ECU. The front brakes are Reliant Kitten hubs fitted with modified Triumph Spitfire discs with Triumph T140 Bonneville racing calipers.

I took off the VW supercharger with a Ford KA throttle body and BMW Mini fuel injectors to make things simpler…. 

Apart from that it’s standard!

[AzCal Retred]

Sounds like you heard this at an early age! 

One Piece at a Time - JC -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uErKI0zWgjg

[Paul W]

I know it well, but Johnny Cash had it easy…his car parts all came from the same factory.