[Mr_84]

G’day guys

I have emailed H’s to ask them some details on their complete crankshaft assembly for the metric iron barrel standard stroke   # 200160 . The reply was that it’s weight is 10.5 kg , I believe stock is somewhere near 11 kg .

H’s also mentioned that the later Indian crankshaft assemblies could be lighter but didn’t confirm this in great detail

Anyone got a crankshaft assembly out of their bike they could weigh and report back??
It would be very interesting to see if there is different weights out there amongst all the years.

Cheers

[StreetKleaver]

Hey mate. Someone might be able to chime in here.

I remember reading a post buried deep in the forum about the crank weights and how they vary over the years including the older Redditch models.

I'll keep digging though

[Mr_84]

So we are getting some reports back in from elsewhere of crank assemblies on scales today.

They are varying from 10.75kg down to 10.1kg and rumours of crankshaft’s from the 70s possibly weighing in at 9.5kg but unconfirmed at this point .

Can anyone else add to this collective knowledge?

[richard211]

 A brand new 500cc IB crankshaft (electric start) weighed under 11.5 kg when it was shipped to me. I believe the crankshaft weighed around 10.5 kg. Unfortunately I no longer have that crankshaft with me to confirm it. I do have a photo that crankshaft in its box.

 What I do know is that the Redditch G2 350's sold in India had the 9.5kg crankshafts and the 1970's indian 350's had a 9.0 kg crankshaft and later on it dropped down to 8kg on the IB 350.
 
 When weighing the crankshafts sometimes people weighed then with the thrust washers and the inner races of roller bearings installed and that adds around 250 grams to the total weight.

[Mr_84]

Thank you Richard for your reply, if in the future you come across another crankshaft I would very much appreciate if you could weigh it and note it’s round about year of make , and I’ll add its measurement  to a little data base I’ve started on this topic.
I should add at this stage I’m mostly interested in 500cc but will record 350cc info as well

Cheers Shaun

[StreetKleaver]

A copy and paste from a Indian source.

************

In bullet we had 350 & 500 ...
From 1955'onwards bullet production starts...
1951 to 1956 mag dynamo _crank weight 14.5 kgs
1957 to 1961 sr magneto _crank weight 14.5 kgs
1962 to 1971 G2 with short nd big delco ..crank weight 14.5kgs..
1971 to 1977 B1 with big delco...crank weight 13kgs..
1977 to 1986 three leaf engine..crank weight 8kgs..
1986 to 1990 one leaf engine.crank weight 8kgs..
1990 to 2000 no leaf engine..crank weight 6kgs...
2001 to 2003 CI without delco (standard electra)
2003 to 2005 CI with 5S..
2005 to 2009 Ci with delco..but some engines with self start.

[Adrian II]

Three leaf engine? One leaf engine? No leaf engine? No weights at all for the last three! 

Confused, I am.

A.

[StreetKleaver]

Three leaf engine? One leaf engine? No leaf engine? No weights at all for the last three! 

Confused, I am.

A.

I have no idea what any of that means either! Probably a wonky translation.

[Paul W]

Perhaps it’s how an indication of how many tea leaves were used…… 

I’ve usually got a cup of tea in the garage when I’ve got the spanners out.

[ChrisD200]

Hi.  I have a 1996 500.  The crankshaft weight complete with OEM aluminium conrod was ~11-11.5kg.  I had ~0.5kg skimmed off each of the flywheels.  The effect on its plodding ability was minimal but it spun up quite  bit faster.  Now in 535 mode it goes quite well (now steel conrod&roller bigend, 32mmMk2, twin plug etc).  Cheers, ChrisD

[Mr_84]

Hi.  I have a 1996 500.  The crankshaft weight complete with OEM aluminium conrod was ~11-11.5kg.  I had ~0.5kg skimmed off each of the flywheels.  The effect on its plodding ability was minimal but it spun up quite  bit faster.  Now in 535 mode it goes quite well (now steel conrod&roller bigend, 32mmMk2, twin plug etc).  Cheers, ChrisD

Thank you very much for your reply this information is very helpful .

535 is where I’m heading , so your very happy with your lightened flywheels ?
How did you work out the 0.5kg to be removed from each side ?
Any bad effects by lightened flywheels ?

[ChrisD200]

Mr 84.  My 535 went well until the stud above the tappets in the alloy barrel started to pull out flooding the engine in oil (down the 4 headbolt tubes).  That steel insert is now replaced and I’m rebuilding the motor. 
Didn’t notice any issues with the underweight flywheels.  In fact another half kilo or more wouldn’t have made much difference - see Bullet Whisperer in Wales (at Performance Classics).  Had the drive sprocket at 19T but went back to the OEM 17T as it felt better (I have a 4-speed only) and with the steel conrod etc it was safer at 6000rpm. Wish I’d chosen a better carb than the Mk2 Amal 32mm though – just needs more fuel-air mix to go even better.  Cheers, ChrisD

[Mr_84]

Bit of an update on this topic.

Hitchcocks #90125A steel con rod weighs 575g

Carrillo steel rod weighs 540g.

I went for the lighter but I’m sure is stronger rod.

Here’s pics of my new Carrillo rod that will be fitted with the NEW Alpha RE15 Big End bearing.

[AzCal Retred]

Why were we concerned with crankshaft weight in the first place again? R211 posted a nice write-up about the Indians adding weight for more "chug" off idle, but I didn't see what your particular concern was. Revvy race engines usually lighten the flywheels, but those engines are also typically oversquare designs to keep down inertial loading and piston speeds. The long primary chain adds a kg or so of rotating mass as opposed to a crank pinion driven clutch modern system.

You aren't thinking about carving on one of H's $1500 press-together, needle bearing artworks are you? Even the 103mm stroke units can spin up impressively, the 90mm even more so.

Chumma (Ace)  welds the old school bolt-together crankpins in place after he's got them balanced & assembled, otherwise they flex too much at high RPM. That's why H's went with the built-up roller crank with wider pins - more shoulder support, greater flex resistance. Chumma also custom makes the crankpin bushes (bronze) and turns the crankpins true round. Ace apparently has had better luck with the bushed cranks than the rolling element units - after the materials & dimensions are massaged properly.

Bullet Whisperers 350 sports a lovingly built & assembled custom crank, so it's actually a "modern" short stroke oversquare engine design, just with pushrods. That's why he gets the RPM he does without fragging.

[Bullet Whisperer]

Why were we concerned with crankshaft weight in the first place again? R211 posted a nice write-up about the Indians adding weight for more "chug" off idle, but I didn't see what your particular concern was. Revvy race engines usually lighten the flywheels, but those engines are also typically oversquare designs to keep down inertial loading and piston speeds. The long primary chain adds a kg or so of rotating mass as opposed to a crank pinion driven clutch modern system.

You aren't thinking about carving on one of H's $1500 press-together, needle bearing artworks are you? Even the 103mm stroke units can spin up impressively, the 90mm even more so.

Chumma (Ace)  welds the old school bolt-together crankpins in place after he's got them balanced & assembled, otherwise they flex too much at high RPM. That's why H's went with the built-up roller crank with wider pins - more shoulder support, greater flex resistance. Chumma also custom makes the crankpin bushes (bronze) and turns the crankpins true round. Ace apparently has had better luck with the bushed cranks than the rolling element units - after the materials & dimensions are massaged properly.

Bullet Whisperers 350 sports a lovingly built & assembled custom crank, so it's actually a "modern" short stroke oversquare engine design, just with pushrods. That's why he gets the RPM he does without fragging.

I just happened upon this, and here are some thoughts. I don't know why anyone would want to weld a crankpin into the flywheels - there is no good reason for that as far as I can see. While our short stroked 350 racer engine does, indeed have a very special crank, as does our 500 racer, I have had lightened, Redditch factory cranks of the crankpin with nuts type hit 8,000 rpm with alloy rods and plain big ends, one of which was fitted second hand, in a hurry and lasted for four racing seasons before succumbing to sabotage, thanks to someone putting grit in our engine oil during the night, at a 2 day event some years ago. Lightened flywheels make a big difference to acceleration, power and even braking, as well as overall machine weight, with little if any loss in low speed tractability. The flywheels have to be rebalanced back to standard specs after lightening them, as the balance factor changes when they are machined down.
B.W.

[Paul W]

I did wonder if welding (heavy duty, it must be) might cause distortion of the crank. Obviously whatever happens, there’s no going back from doing that!

[AzCal Retred]

It was more like big tack welds on the retaining nuts rather than just seal-welding in the pin, sorry for the poor explanation/bum dope.   

Vintage class racing is a whole world away from just having a really nice street engine. For the spirited rider a standard Hitchcock's 90mm or 103mm press together crank is a readily accessible and very satisfactory piece indeed to build a roarty big old school single around. A hand made 9 pound crank in an 80 year old design engine isn't going to let you out accelerate or out brake a 355 pound, 75 HP, EFI metered, electric start & turn signal equipped 701 Svartpilen on some back lane unless its rider is completely at sea. BW's highly sorted and refined hardware gives him a leg up against other similar vintage machines at the track, which is the whole point. I've seen the IoM Vintage races up close & personal, I can testify that there are some blazingly fast machines out there. The IoM TT race with modern race equipment and a crop of young tigers riding them is INSANELY fast...but that's racing. If the modern stuff wasn't faster, it wouldn't exist.

For street use a "standard weight" crank in a gussied-up Bullet won't hold anyone back, so I'm not seeing the concern over a few odd grams of flywheel weight. The genuine 1940's engineering and Indian metallurgy place real limits on the performance envelope. Modern clean-sheet thumper designs like the 355 pound, 75 HP, EFI & electric start Husqvarna 700cc Svartpilen will likely run off and leave you for dead for about $10K out the door new, probably close to the amount you'd have in a well sorted, hand built "full race" Bullet. Giving up maybe 25-30 HP and dealing with an additional 50 pounds of weight to the new gen hardware rather goes with the antiquity of Bullet design.

I applaud your technical skills and ingenuity in being able to create such a special item, I hope you get a lot of satisfaction out of it.

[Mr_84]

I just noticed there’s been some activity on this thread.

So I almost purchased the H’s crankshaft assembly but it’s nearly $3000 kiwi dollars and most likely tax at the border , it’s looks great and drop straight in with a set of quality main bearings making it easy.

All I was doing was asking to see what the average crankshaft weights were over the years as I had been told Redditch one were lighter than Indian ones ,   many on other forums weighed their cranks reported back , it was interesting to me to see the difference I can’t wait to see what mine will weigh when it’s out.

The Carrillo rod was offered to me at a bargain of a price , yes there is more work than the H’s crankshaft but I’ll have it done for less than half the price and it will be strong and reliable for my street going build . The Carrillo is a work of art just by its self ,I’m happy just looking at it 👀

[stinkwheel]

The Carrillo is a work of art just by its self ,I’m happy just looking at it 👀

Aye. When i got the Hitchcocks one it almost seemed a shame to hide it away inside an engine.

The only bad thing about it was that they released a newer version with a different pin offset so it works to a standard deck-height (no barrel spacers needed) about 2 weeks after I bought mine.

[Bulli]

.... below you may see the weights in kg of the 2 different indian crankshafts, i know about. As far as i know, these are the only two weights, typical indian cranks have or ever had.