[swamp2]

So there are many sprag clutch assemblies (part number 592593/A) on ebay and a wide range of prices.  The "genuine" Royal Enfield spares are of course the pricier one's, and the cheaper ones (as low as $67ish) are aftermarket.

Does anybody know, is there really a sufficient difference in quality to justify the price difference?  I'm sure Royal Enfield doesn't actually make the assembly and some shop provides them but are they made to a higher standard?

Thanks,
Steve

[Enfield Pro]

So there are many sprag clutch assemblies (part number 592593/A) on ebay and a wide range of prices.  The "genuine" Royal Enfield spares are of course the pricier one's, and the cheaper ones (as low as $67ish) are aftermarket.

Does anybody know, is there really a sufficient difference in quality to justify the price difference?  I'm sure Royal Enfield doesn't actually make the assembly and some shop provides them but are they made to a higher standard?

Thanks,
Steve

Hi Steve,

I always recommend getting parts from a known source, it makes things a lot easier should issues arise.

At the least I would visually verify you getting the lastest version with the spring loaded bearing. And not an older version marketed with the newest part number.

[axman88]

I have no experience with the sprag clutches, but I do have a lot of experience with Ebay.

Sellers on Ebay come in varieties from excellent to awful.  The worst will create ads that are intentionally misleading.  Others will accept your money and not ship anything.  There is a flaw in the Ebay system that removes a buyer's ability to leave feedback after 60 days, and will also remove the purchase listing from a buyers "front page".  Unscrupulous sellers are taking advantage of this flaw by promising LONG delivery times.  The buyer can't complain until the promised delivery period is over.  If this is more than 60 days, the buyer has lost the ability to leave negative feedback for the seller.  After such a long time, with no reminder on their "front page", buyers tend to forget about these purchases.  The bogus seller gets to keep some percentage of the transactions and simply refunds money to the buyers who complain without incurring any penalty.

My point is that it isn't JUST quality issues that one is contending with.  There are also very long waits for delivery, in most cases a total absence of shipping tracking information between listing the shipment number and the delivery, and a possibility that the seller has NO INTENTION of ever shipping anything.  Sellers from China are the worst offenders, in my opinion.  If I need a crucial part, fast, I will purchase from a domestic or UK source.

That said, I do buy from Indian and Chinese sellers via Ebay, But I'm very careful to monitor the progress of any purchases.  Ebay has the buyer's back, I have always gotten my money back.  But, it did take me FOUR attempts to purchase oil filters before any were actually delivered.

[Guaire]

I had to replace mine on my 2010 C5. That year the parts were bad design. I bought the current assembly from my local dealer.
  It makes a difference. Get a good one!

[swamp2]

The nearest RE dealer to me is a couple hundred miles away, and I work on a lot of older obsolete stuff so have been pretty dependent on ebay for parts for all variety of bikes.  I generally have not had to do a lot of non-US purchases in the past, but there have been some.  Thinking back I guess I did have one order from China for an $8 item that never shipped, but my experiences have generally been good, no other problems.

It does seem like the vast majority of RE parts listed are from suppliers in India, with the exception of items from bike breakers.  axman88, you mention the oil filters - I ordered 4 from somewhere in India a few days ago, and indeed it suggested a delivery date from "Dec 3 - Jan 7".  Not being in a huge hurry I didn't worry about that too much.  But I did get an ebay notification 2 days ago that "your order is being shipped".  Hopefully that's a good sign.

Regarding the sprag clutch, in a moment of weakness I bought an '09 G5 off ebay that allegedly has a perfectly working starter, but I'll need to do a little work on it this winter and am planning on upgrading the sprag clutch while it's not inconvenient to do so.  But I don't want to spend more on it than I have to, of course.

Steve

[Kevin Mahoney]

Here is what I know
1. The first year of sprag clutches was one thing - The first year was 2000 with the advent of the Electric Start. Using a sprag may have been one of the worse engineering solutions ever put forth by RE
2 The made a slightly improved model when they started to grenade
3. Sprags made for the Indian market were a cheaper product and had more failures than we have here.
4. Sprags made for the UCE engine were improved not too long after their production. The initial ones weren't too bad
5. UCE sprag are easy to change relative to the Iron barrel or AVL
6. The sprags fail in two ways. The first is when the sprag fails to catch. Push the starter button and it tried to engage but doesn't Some times it will catch and sometimes it won't. Bad deal. still, need to replace the sprag but does not grenade all over your engine.

f With the Iron barrel and AVL engines, they were internal to a part of the engine cases. In some cases they just plaint failed and would not catch. Far more often they would grenade and they could do a lot of damage to the internals of the engine. Worst case it could lock up your engine. This normally happened if there was any kind of kickback when starting or stopping. Sometimes you got lucky sometimes you didn't. I always started my ES Iron Barrel in a way that would prevent this.

With a UCE I would take the chance with an eBay sprag
Here is an installtion article for the Iron and AVL models http://accessories.hitchcocksmotorcycles.com/core/media/media.nl?id=188650&c=1062795&h=cef07de664060cc09003&_xt=.pd

Here is a link to a delay unit for the AVL - very helpfulhttp://accessories.hitchcocksmotorcycles.com/information-and-services/News/Spark-Delay-Unit-Electra-X

[swamp2]

At the least I would visually verify you getting the lastest version with the spring loaded bearing. And not an older version marketed with the newest part number.

Is the bearing the only difference between the new and old assembly?  I see the bearings are available by themselves, and if the other 2 parts haven't changed, is changing the bearing alone a bad idea?  The bike in question has < 7k miles on it.

[axman88]

But I did get an ebay notification 2 days ago that "your order is being shipped".  Hopefully that's a good sign.

In my experience it's just a little bit better than nothing.  It could mean that they actually shipped, or that they reserved a shipment number with a shipper, or it could mean that they clicked a button in Ebay to send a notice.  Several of my "bogus" shipments have apparently, according to the shipping info trail, come all the way to Chicago, before stalling, or turning back.  Shipping info from China and India has been, in my experience, very dubious.

At any rate, the percentage of delivery failures vs what I've ordered from India and China, is less than 15%, so the odds are still in our favor.  Keep your eye on it, is my advice, and leave your feedback before the 60 days.  I have started leaving negative feedback if the item hasn't arrived by day 60, regardless of whether they promised to deliver in 40 days, or 80 days, or whatever.  Other sellers have managed to get me my stuff in 10 days from India or China.  These guys know they are gaming us.   I've contacted Ebay, complaining, but this is the situation we have to deal with for now.

[swamp2]

The seller I'm looking at buying from (royalspareparts) has a lot of largely positive feedback including a pile left within the last month, from buyers in US, AU, UK.  He's also been pretty prompt answering a couple questions I've asked.  Seems pretty legit as far as I can tell.  I used somebody else for the oil filter order though - I hadn't studied that seller as carefully.  So I'll keep an eye on it and report back.

[darmahman]

I have bought lots of stuff from Royal Spares.  They are excellent from a quality and service(shipping) standpoint.

[Enfield Pro]

Is the bearing the only difference between the new and old assembly?  I see the bearings are available by themselves, and if the other 2 parts haven't changed, is changing the bearing alone a bad idea?  The bike in question has < 7k miles on it.

We have always recommend replacing the entire assembly. Could you get away with replacing just the bearing? Maybe, is it the best idea No.

What year is your bike? If you started out with the first gen and are upgrading to the second gen, the odds of you having another failure are much much lower.

[mattsz]

Can anyone post photos of these "1st gen" and "2nd gen" sprags?

[swamp2]

What year is your bike? If you started out with the first gen and are upgrading to the second gen, the odd of you having another failure are much much lower.

Tim, the bike in question is an '09 G5.  AFAIK, the sprag hasn't failed yet.  But when I was shopping for a C5 Classic recently and looking for advice here, there were suggestions to stay away from the '09 and '10 - the '09 due to the weak sprag, and the '10 due to the weak sprag coupled with the lack of a kicker.  So... that stuck in my mind, and I figured I'd just upgrade the '09's clutch to the later design and get it off my worry ball list.  The bike was pretty cheap, needs a little work anyway and since winter riding conditions in upstate NY aren't all that accommodating I figured it would be a good time to do it.  Sort of a PM kind of thing.  Watched a youtube on it, looks pretty straightforward.

[Enfield Pro]

Can anyone post photos of these "1st gen" and "2nd gen" sprags?

Buyer beware! I was not able to find one example of the 2nd gen bearing on eBay or elsewhere. Most of the listings on eBay for 592593 are pictured as the full assembly, so I can't say one way or the other....that's a problem. Below is the best I can do at this time.

I thought about buying some but they are extremely heavy, especially when all your stuff comes air freight. And I assumed, since the 2nd gen was released 2010 ish,  the market would be flooded with them. What a F%% idiot I am! 

Hitchcock's does have the 2nd gen.

[Enfield Pro]

Tim, the bike in question is an '09 G5.

Oh MAN! Is it Military green? Note my signature! Either way The G5 was a great choice. It's the much less popular but waaay cooler model IMHO.

Watched a youtube on it, looks pretty straightforward.

It is easy. I successfully replaced mine and believe me when I tell you I am all thumbs.

[swamp2]

Oh MAN! Is it Military green? Note my signature! Either way The G5 was a great choice. It's the much less popular but waaay cooler model IMHO.

Nope, this one is black and chrome.  Not sure, maybe that makes it a "Deluxe"?  I haven't quite figured out the various models and designations for these guys over the years yet.  Still not sure what differentiates a B5, C5, G5.  I'll get there...

[axman88]

Nope, this one is black and chrome.

I remember seeing the bike on the ad before you bought it, swamp2, but that picture disappeared along with the ad when you bought it.  You're going to have to take and post some pictures.  I remember it was a very nice looking bike, I am thinking "Classic Chrome Bullet" was what they called it back in '09.

If your seller is responsive, and somebody else vouches for them, you should be in good shape as far as getting your parts.  But, I've had sellers with LOTs of positive feedback fail to deliver.  It's all part of that long delivery window loophole, I was talking about.  If their opportunity to leave feedback is gone before they have the right to complain, not many people are going to get the chance to leave negative feedback.  I've had sellers ask for positive feedback after they supposedly "ship", and long before the item is delivered.  That really gets my spidey sense tingling!

[Enfield Pro]

Still not sure what differentiates a B5, C5, G5.  I'll get there...

They all have the same engine with exception of some small differences i.e. front sprocket size, rocker cover shape,   and outer case design.

Each model has a different frame, and there are various front fork configurations. That's about it (in a nutshell).

Generally anything with chrome on it is called a Deluxe. (Twins Excluded)

[swamp2]

I remember seeing the bike on the ad before you bought it, swamp2, but that picture disappeared along with the ad when you bought it.  You're going to have to take and post some pictures.  I remember it was a very nice looking bike, I am thinking "Classic Chrome Bullet" was what they called it back in '09.

If your seller is responsive, and somebody else vouches for them, you should be in good shape as far as getting your parts.  But, I've had sellers with LOTs of positive feedback fail to deliver.  It's all part of that long delivery window loophole, I was talking about.  If their opportunity to leave feedback is gone before they have the right to complain, not many people are going to get the chance to leave negative feedback.  I've had sellers ask for positive feedback after they supposedly "ship", and long before the item is delivered.  That really gets my spidey sense tingling!

Well, it's sort of embarrassing, but there's actually 2 bikes now, the '12 black/chrome C5 I picked up a month ago, and this black/chrome '09 G5 (Deluxe?).  But that's a story for another time...

I ordered the sprag (opted for the genuine RE part rather than aftermarket, BTW) from the seller in India, and ebay says I'll have it by Dec. 11.  So that's pretty reasonable if it happens.

[Enfield Pro]

Edit:
I was thinking about it over my morning coffee. This is only true prior to 2012 when the C5 chrome / black and chrome / maroon models were released.

There are very few absolutes when Royal Enfield is the subject.

Generally anything with chrome on it is called a Deluxe. (Twins Excluded)

[mattsz]

Hitchcock's does have the 2nd gen.

And for those of you who are new to this, here's what the "self-destructing" 1st gen looks like:

[wildbill]

I actually had the sprag clutch replaced on a 015 or 016 C5 bike. purchased new that year and gave the warning signs almost from the very first start up. it was replaced under warranty at 300 miles on the clock-easy to tell when it happens.
hit the button- the starter motor spins but doesn't engage correctly and just spins away.

[gashousegorilla]

  If you are upgrading from the 1st self distructo sprag  to the newer one with the spring...    You must buy the whole gear assembly .   Just checked my notes.. and in bold letter's I have " New style sprag bearing will not fit onto old style gear.      I evidently ,at the time way back when, measured about a 2.5 mm difference where the sprag rides in the gear.   Anyway..    The new sprag bearing will not fit into the older style gear's housing.

    The part number I found stamped on the NEWER springy  sprag bearing ,  and that's the bearing,  not the whole gear assembly is....  MT000242B15-TEM.    Googling would be your friend here with that  part number.   You may be able to find a bearing supplier that has them...

[swamp2]

Ok, well I ordered the whole assembly ($97) so provided they send the correct thing (592593/A?) I should be good to go.  A little discouraged to hear of wildbill's early failure of the newer design, but I guess examples of infant mortality can happen with anything.

I got an email today, through "PikMyBox"  - that said "custom clearance for your parcel has been initiated at origin" and "this parcel has been shipped via India Post" along with tracking number.  Then I got an ebay "your order has been shipped".  Then a FedEx message saying it would be delivered this Friday.  If that's accurate, I'll have the part from India before I even pick up the bike!

[gashousegorilla]

I actually had the sprag clutch replaced on a 015 or 016 C5 bike. purchased new that year and gave the warning signs almost from the very first start up. it was replaced under warranty at 300 miles on the clock-easy to tell when it happens.
hit the button- the starter motor spins but doesn't engage correctly and just spins away.

  One bad one, in like 14 UCE bikes ain't a bad success rate for Enfields Brother ?        That spring was probably weak to begin with , from whoever makes that sprag for Enfield.....

[swamp2]

Ok, my sprag clutch from seller "royalspareparts" was indeed received this morning. ebay projected a delivery date 12/3-12/11, and it was received 11/29.  Order was exactly as advertised, a "genuine" RE spare, shipped in RE sealed packaging.  Considering I ordered this 11/23 and it came from India, I'm very impressed and certainly will have no qualms about ordering from this seller again.

I ordered my 4 oil filters from a different seller in India on 11/19.  ebay projected a delivery date of 12/3-1/7 for that order.  So I haven't received that yet - but when I put the tracking number into an India Post tracking site, it does appear there is a package moving through - location is the Delhi Int. Mail Centre, with a status of "item bagged" and USA destination.  I'll just keep an eye on that one...

[Guaire]

Can anyone post photos of these "1st gen" and "2nd gen" sprags?

Here's a photo of the 1st gen.
Bill

[mattsz]

Bill your 1st gen photo looks a bit different than my 1st gen photo... 

[swamp2]

I ordered my 4 oil filters from a different seller in India on 11/19.  ebay projected a delivery date of 12/3-1/7 for that order.  So I haven't received that yet - but when I put the tracking number into an India Post tracking site, it does appear there is a package moving through - location is the Delhi Int. Mail Centre, with a status of "item bagged" and USA destination.  I'll just keep an eye on that one...

Just to wrap this one up - the filters were delivered 12/5, so that's pretty good given the projected delivery window.  Seller for this one was "uvspareparts".  So I'm 2 for 2 on ebay purchases from India.

[Kevin Mahoney]

I have posted this comment so often that I should just copy and paste. When buying parts from India please be aware that there are many counterfeit parts coming from India. Factory wrapping etc. No way to tell the difference unless you can dig deeper into it and that can't really be done from here and without inside knowledge about the vendor.

In India price is everything. An Indian will haggle for the last Rupee. Not a criticism just reality. This fuels the counterfeit parts market.

Be particularly wary of filters. I have cut apart many true factory filters and then compared them with the filter any new vendor was sending. 9 out of 10 times they were of lower quality and were sold as genuine OEM parts. An example used to be iron Barrel oil filters. There were lots of "rebuilt" filters in the market. OEM filters that had been washed until it took a trained eye to tell the difference.

I would cut apart your OEM filter and then compare it to the filter sent to you. If you find a good supplier then stick with them. Some RE parts suppliers from India sell good legitimate stuff but unless you check very carefully you will never know.

I can't diagnose WB's sprag from here but.....given the number of bikes RE is making the counterfeit market has grown exponentially. There were sprags made for the export market and sprags made for the domestic market. Very different in quality and lifespan. Can't really tell by looking at them.

Given the cost difference I would only buy critical parts from your dealer or from Hitchcocks.

[Mad4Bullets]

Amen Irish. Amen.

[swamp2]

I have posted this comment so often that I should just copy and paste. When buying parts from India please be aware that there are many counterfeit parts coming from India. Factory wrapping etc. No way to tell the difference unless you can dig deeper into it and that can't really be done from here and without inside knowledge about the vendor.

In India price is everything. An Indian will haggle for the last Rupee. Not a criticism just reality. This fuels the counterfeit parts market.

Be particularly wary of filters. I have cut apart many true factory filters and then compared them with the filter any new vendor was sending. 9 out of 10 times they were of lower quality and were sold as genuine OEM parts. An example used to be iron Barrel oil filters. There were lots of "rebuilt" filters in the market. OEM filters that had been washed until it took a trained eye to tell the difference.

I would cut apart your OEM filter and then compare it to the filter sent to you. If you find a good supplier then stick with them. Some RE parts suppliers from India sell good legitimate stuff but unless you check very carefully you will never know.

I can't diagnose WB's sprag from here but.....given the number of bikes RE is making the counterfeit market has grown exponentially. There were sprags made for the export market and sprags made for the domestic market. Very different in quality and lifespan. Can't really tell by looking at them.

Given the cost difference I would only buy critical parts from your dealer or from Hitchcocks.

Well, this is pretty much what prompted me to start this thread anyway.  Re: the sprag, the vendor I bought it from had several different listings for them at different prices.   When asked about the differences, he replied there was indeed a difference in quality and recommended the genuine RE part over the cheaper "aftermarket" versions.  Of course I realize this meant a higher value sale for him so that possibly clouded his objectivity,  but... Given the part I received was sealed, RE packaging (like it's vacuum packed, almost) I have to say if it's counterfeit, they did a pretty good job.  And if there really are different versions for domestic and export with the same part number, I don't understand how ordering from Hitchcock or a local dealer (BTW, I don't have one...) is any more of a guarantee of getting a "good" one.  I'm sure RE is getting these made by other shops anyway, not doing it themselves - maybe the same shops that are making the counterfeits.  And the difference in price is not small - the base price from Hitchcock was about 2.5x what I paid and I suspect the shipping from UK to US is more than free.

Not trying to be argumentative here, just looking for enlightenment...

[swamp2]

Just for giggles, I went out and unpacked one of the "Genuine" RE oil filters, and found a Purolator logo and part number printed on the filter end cap.  I don't know if that's good or not.

[Richard230]

Regarding the subject of Indian people bargaining for stuff: I was able to buy my 2011 RE Bullet, with 1K miles on the clock, from my BMW dealer who took in trade, for only 1/2 the original retail price due to several Indian nationals, of which there are a lot working in Silicon Valley, bugging the sales manager.  Being a BMW dealer she was not used to anyone bargaining for anything. BMW customers just pay whatever it is that BMW wants them to pay. No bargaining allowed.    Apparently she had these Indian contract workers visit the shop who wanted to buy the bike for the same price that they were used to paying in India and tried to grind her down on the $3,500 price that she wanted for the bike. That really pissed her off. So when I came along, she sold me the bike for only $3k, plus free shipping to my home 40 miles away, just to get it out of the shop. 

I might add that she said that the Bullet was the worst motorcycle she had ever ridden.    So lucky me.   

[Guaire]

The UCE oil filters have a Purolator part number. That's not new.
So you think that no one would use counterfeit shrink wrapped boxes?
  I buy from Tim at Western Cycle, my local dealer, Cycles of Silver Spring (MD), or Hitchcock's.

[Enfield Pro]

The UCE oil filters have a Purolator part number. That's not new.
So you think that no one would use counterfeit shrink wrapped boxes?
  I buy from Tim at Western Cycle, my local dealer, Cycles of Silver Spring (MD), or Hitchcock's.

Thanks for supporting local shops.

[gashousegorilla]

  I buy from Tim at Western Cycle, my local dealer, Cycles of Silver Spring (MD), or Hitchcock's.

  YUP !!!    Great guy, super knowledgeable, great prices and quick shipping... And shipping that doesn't hammer you over the head with cost !    AND right here in the USA.

[Kevin Mahoney]

I can tell you with 100% certainty that RE parts can be counterfeit and be packaged to look exactly like OEM parts.
The way to prevent buying one that looks like OEM but are not is to examine the supply chain. Both CMW (and Tim from Western Cycle Supply who was our parts savant), RENA and Hitchcock are reliable suppliers. The reason to trust those supply chains is the fact that they know which parts come directly from RE and which don't. Take a look at Hitchcock's website and notice that he notes when something is not OEM. We did the same as does Tim. All of us have spent a couple of decades finding sources for things. They know what comes directly from the factory and what doesn't. The chances of you getting a non-OEM part from an authorized dealer in the US is pretty close to nil. The more bikes that RE sold the bigger the problem has become.  In the bearing industry, some counterfeits look better than the originals https://www.thecounterfeitreport.com/product/112/SKF-Bearings.html

Right after the UCE was introduced RE did it's one and only recall. Some genius designed a transmission gear with steel on steel instead of using a bronze bushing. We were tasked with rebuilding  tons of them. Tim and I bought some replacement bearings because the factory didn't have any. We got them from a hell of a price. We read up on counterfeit bearings and realized that our "good deal" consisted of counterfeit bearings.

In reality it probably doens't matter a whit if a part is counterfeit or not if it is non critical. There are also cases where aftermarket parts are better than OEM. It's all a questoin of knowing your suppliers.

[swamp2]

Ok, fair enough.  I'm still learning the RE world.  If there are US sellers with reasonable pricing/shipping I'm happy to use them, it's just when I went on ebay pretty much every seller I looked at was in India.  So I figured that's just what you're stuck with.

But I still don't know how - by looking at a part - can you tell if it comes from RE or not, and also if it comes from RE, is it a good part or just some part built to a sub-standard spec that a supplier is allowed to slap a "genuine RE" package on.  I'm sure RE also puts stuff out for bid and often selects the low bidder.

[GSS]

There are several established Indian sellers that sell OEM and high quality aftermarket.  The trick to buying is to not go for the cheapest listing and also to ask the sellers who have high feedback numbers.

Otherwise HCM, the original CMW/Kevin/Tim, and Marty at Gomoto have always been very reliable.

[Enfield Pro]

Otherwise HCM, the original CMW/Kevin/Tim, and Marty at Gomoto have always been very reliable.

Marty @ Go Moto is rock solid, and willing to ship parts.

[GSS]

Marty @ Go Moto is rock solid, and willing to ship parts.

It is nice to see original Tim continuing the good work

[swamp2]

I installed the new gen sprag clutch in my '09 G5 yesterday.  Installation was straightforward, but... I was rather disturbed to find the the bolt securing the sprocket/clutch in place had backed itself out and was apparently only held in place by the primary cover.  Also the nut holding the main clutch in place was only finger tight.  This on a bike with 6700 miles.

Nothing bad had happened as a result, but the moral of the story - if you've never had the primary cover off, you may want to pop it off and have a look.  Red locktite is your friend. Many thanks to gashousegorilla for the advice over on Tim's new RE forum - http://forum.westerncyclesupply.com/ - go join now!

Steve

[gizzo]

If you all don't mind me digressing back to the oil filters for a moment? The last couple of filters I've bought are branded "elofic" and have the RE logo stamped into the end caps. They come from my local RE dealer workshop and are in what looks like factory packaging. Elofic appears to be a legit Indian filter maker and are making a Purolator replacement to supply to RE as oem.

This is only the second elofic filter I've had,  all previous ones have been Purolator. I CBF trying to save a few rupees on buying oil filters from India, eBay.  Little things like that, it's only $20 from the local. Might as well support the local when you can.

Anyone else seen these guys?

[swamp2]

Yup.  I changed the oil when I changed the sprag a couple days ago.   The filter was marked like the one you showed - Elofic. When I'd changed the oil in my C5 a week prior, the filter was marked Purolator.  Both filters came from the same order of 4 I'd placed with an ebay seller in India.   All came in (apparently) official RE packaging.

I thought the filter itself looked fine so although it caught my attention, I just chalked it off to RE competitively bidding their suppliers and still having mixed inventory.  I'm not overly concerned about them being sub-standard parts.

Anyway, I'll buy from Tim in the future, he has attractive pricing on them.

Steve